Car Krush Nov 12, 2025

131. The Pile Up EP19: Cooking the Books

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Concept

muscle car era

The muscle car era was a time when American car manufacturers made powerful cars with big engines, especially in the 1960s and early 70s. These cars were known for being fast and exciting to drive.

Term

horsepower

Horsepower tells you how powerful an engine is. The higher the horsepower, the faster and stronger the car can be.

Car

Chevrolet Chevelle

The Chevelle SS 396 is a type of car made by Chevrolet in 1969. It's a muscle car, which means it's designed for speed and power.

Term

torque

Torque is how much twisting force an engine can produce. It's important because it helps cars accelerate faster, especially in races.

Concept

drag racing

Drag racing is a race where two cars go straight down a track to see which one is faster. It's all about how quickly they can speed up from a stop.

Term

Hemi

Hemi is a type of engine design that helps it run more efficiently and powerfully. It's often found in fast cars because it can produce a lot of power.

Term

big block Chevy

Big block Chevy is a type of large engine made by Chevrolet that is known for being very powerful. It's often used in fast cars.

Car

Ford Mustang

The 1969 Mustang Boss 429 is a special version of the Ford Mustang from 1969, famous for its powerful engine and unique design. It's a rare car that many collectors love.

Car

small block Chevy

The small block Chevy is a type of V8 engine made by Chevrolet. It's famous for being powerful and is used in many cars, especially for racing and performance upgrades.

Term

429

The 429 is a big engine made by Ford that is known for being very powerful. It was used in some classic cars, making them faster and more exciting to drive.

Car

Chevrolet Corvette

The Chevrolet Corvette is a fast and stylish sports car that many people love. It has been around for a long time and is famous for being one of the best American-made sports cars.

Term

fastback

A fastback is a type of car shape where the back of the car slopes down smoothly from the roof to the trunk. It looks sleek and sporty.

Term

notchback

A notchback is a car shape where the trunk is separate from the passenger area, making it look more boxy compared to a fastback. It usually has a straight-up rear window.

Car

Pontiac Torinos

The Pontiac Torino is an older car that many people think looks great and goes fast. It's part of the classic muscle car group.

Car

Ford Torino

The Ford Torino is an older car that was popular in the 70s and is known for being stylish and powerful. Many people like it because it has a classic look.

Term

straight six

A straight six is a type of engine that has six cylinders lined up in a row. It's known for running smoothly and providing good power.

Car

Chevrolet Camaro

The Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 is a fast sports car from 1969 that is famous for its strong engine and cool looks. It's a classic muscle car that many car fans love.

Term

Naturally aspirated means that an engine gets air from the atmosphere without any extra help from devices like turbochargers. This can make the engine feel more responsive when you press the gas pedal.

Term

396

The 396 refers to a type of powerful engine made by Chevrolet that is often used in fast cars. It's known for helping cars go really fast.

Car

Ford 429

The Ford 429 is a powerful engine made by Ford. It's often found in big cars and trucks because it provides a lot of strength and speed.

Car

Cadillac DeVille

The 1979 Cadillac DeVille is a large luxury car that was very comfortable and had a lot of space inside. It was known for its smooth driving experience.

Car

Mercury Marauder

The Mercury Marauder is a big car made by the Mercury brand, especially known for its size and engine. The 1979 version had a large engine but didn't produce much power, which was surprising for such a big car.

Car

Cadillac 425

The Cadillac 425 is an engine used in Cadillac cars. It's known for being smooth and having a good amount of power, making the car feel comfortable to drive.

Brand

Hello, hello, hello.

Welcome to the pile up.

The pile up.

Pile up.

Are we going to have a competition to say who gets the last word in?

No, you can have it.

No, you can't.

No, I insist.

If you insist.

I insist.

Thank you.

Happy Wednesday.

I'm cleaning the vans.

And welcome to our podcast.

The pile up.

In case you didn't know.

In case you got here by accident.

What the hell?

Just stay.

Pull up a chair.

Grab some coffee or some tea if that's what you are into.

Tea and crumpets.

Or a biscuit.

Or a biscuit or a croissant.

Or coffee and a donut.

Coffee and a donut.

Feel free to dunk that donut.

Intiments, yeah.

Intiments with the hard chocolate outer.

And then dip that off.

So good.

There you go.

That's what the people need.

I mean, yeah, a dunked donut.

I love a cake donut in coffee.

Yeah, that is good.

That is good.

Like a plain, like the OG.

It's a little gross when the oil gets on top of the coffee from the donut.

A little like, oh, that's my stomach right now.

Looks like the Exxon Valdez down there.

I will say my favorite coffee

was when we did that fresh whipped cream.

That homemade fresh whipped cream.

Oh, that was so good.

That was a taste that I've never had in my life

and never had it since.

That was really good.

This holiday season, whip your own cream.

Dall a bit on coffee.

And enjoy.

Black coffee.

Decadent.

Oh my god.

What do you think?

Are we going to get to podcasting?

I mean, look, you're the one with the hot ticket item.

Oh, okay.

So it's like, I'm not going to introduce your hot ticket item.

You know it far better than I do.

If I introduce it wrong, then how much time are you going to spend excoriating me?

Okay, I'm going to...

For not knowing your topic.

Are you trying to tell me I'm going first?

Well, I think that's on you.

You have the thing.

I do.

I've got papers in my hand.

I've got notes.

I'm going to

look at them at some point.

Okay, all right.

What I'm going to talk about today is the biggest

conspiracy

in the history of...

A scandal?

A straight scandal.

Oh my goodness.

Whispers in the boardrooms.

Slies to the public.

No one would ever believe that.

This happened during the height of the muscle car era.

Which was the late 60s.

Big as we can be. Too big to fail.

Early 70s.

Early 70s, huh?

Yeah, late 60s, early 70s.

Late 60s, huh?

Height of the muscle car era.

And what the companies were doing...

Are you going to name names?

Or is this protection...

You're going to tell the story and protect the people involved?

Oh no, we're going to name names.

We're going to name the names.

What was happening is the automotive companies

were underrating

the horsepower

that they were putting out.

Seems harmless.

Underrating. Seems harmless.

Yeah, and they had good reason to do it too.

Wow, get more than you paid for from a giant company.

And that was one idea.

Remarkable. Exactly.

Couldn't even fathom such a

thought process today.

And that was part of it. It was a marketing ploy.

It was a marketing ploy for people

to think that they were getting more than they paid for.

They were making lifetime customers right there.

At least to think about stuff like that.

Getting a car that you think only has 350 horsepower

and it's got 400.

What? 50 more horsepower.

Holy shit, you're fucking pumped.

And then also part of the marketing ploy too

was that they would underrate

the lower cost

like the economic...

economic...

So if you bought the base model

you were really getting a banger?

Yeah, you would get a banger but they would rate them lower

because then the higher end model

would look that much better.

Boomers really don't know how good they had it.

And they're all like, yeah, I scrapped that car.

Yeah, I sold it for $100 and

somebody hit it with a tractor.

In 1975, when the oil crisis was happening.

Oh, I got a little bit of rust on the hood and I scrapped it.

It was done.

That's how it always...

Yeah.

They also did it for racing purposes

so that they could be in better brackets.

So that was one thing that they were doing which I don't know.

Does that hurt John cheating?

Is that a little bit of a cheating?

Isn't it only cheating if you get caught?

Okay, fair enough.

Right? Fair enough.

But one of the main reasons why they did it

I think this was the main reason why they did it

is because insurance costs were going through the roof.

Oh my god.

And it was based on horsepower.

And so if you bought this higher horsepower car

chances are you weren't going to afford the insurance.

Oh my...

Okay.

Do you want to hear some of the cars?

No. That's... I'm good. Thanks.

Oh, I guess. Yeah, I guess.

I think you're going to be shocked

I guess one or two.

You're going to be shocked at how different these are.

The 1969

Chevelle SS

396

Advertised horsepower

375

Actual horsepower

425

50 plus difference

Wow. Now here's something that I didn't find numbers on

is torque

which is also important.

I mean, okay, 396

It's torquey. Probably.

It's a big block. We know it's torquey.

I mean that's the engine of racers.

People that want to make big power drag racing

you're either building a Hemi or you're building a big block Chevy.

Right. Okay. So like that's a torquey...

We're just going to assume it's torquey.

That's a torquey MF-er.

Next up we have the

1969 Mustang

Boss 429.

The 396 had how much?

375. It was rated.

It's not 1 to 1, but it's close.

To 425.

What do you mean? Cube. A horsepower per cube.

Oh, right. Yeah.

That's already like a...

That's like a mark of

the small block Chevy is like the fact that you can make it

and make, you know,

one horse per cube.

That's pretty healthy. Yeah.

300 is a big deal. First of all.

Yeah, 300 is a lot. That's like

C to your pants. So it was over 1 to 1 though

because it was 425.

What was? Eventually.

So it was advertised as 375

but the actual horsepower was 425.

My bad. Okay. Sorry.

Yeah, so it was over. Okay. My bad.

Sorry, I wasn't being a good listener.

Okay.

I was deceived by the marketing.

Yeah, you were deceived. It's okay. You know what?

It's so deceptive. Even today.

You have to be careful with this file.

Sneaky.

I'm just going to gloss over that

and assume that you are listening to me.

What's up?

Exactly.

The 69 Ford Mustang

Boss 429.

69.

Sorry, Mustang.

The advertised horsepower

is 375.

Do you want to guess what the actual horsepower was?

400.

475.

What? Yeah, it was 100 over.

And that's what? A 351?

429.

Oh, it's a 429.

Yeah. That's a whole other beast.

Yeah. And it is a beast.

Yeah. Those are cool motors.

I mean, that's not right. My bad.

The 69 and 70 Mustang have

a sweet spot in my heart

because when I went to work at Allison's Rod & Custom,

the first hot rod shop I worked at,

I mean, I worked at a Corvette shop first,

but that's not a hot rod shop.

So I personally split them apart.

They're a little different.

But we had a 69

and a 70.

They're the same.

We did Celine-style hoods for them.

And then I went to work at another rod shop

or at Stark's Rod & Custom

Excuse me.

I burped. Oh.

And then we probably picked up on here pretty good.

And then I...

We had another 69 there, but it was a Mach 1

or a Boss.

And they're really cool.

I knew a guy

that hung out at Allison's

Bill, and Bill was really into

68 and 9 Tarrinos and like,

I guess...

Oh, was he one of the guys that did only Tarrinos?

Yeah, him and Ross.

And they'd met because they were both into

Model A's at first.

And then they got into these 68 and 9 Tarrinos

and had a gaggle of them. And they're really cool.

They're cool. And I feel like the 69

and 70 mustang also are a cool body

that nobody really talks about.

And it's a two-year-only car.

It's a clear evolution

of the 67

and, you know, an 8.

But it is...

I mean, it's a great-looking car, I think.

Yeah.

I don't know if...

I mean, now I recognize them, too.

It's one of those things, I guess, if you don't know.

What do they... I don't know what they look like, really.

I don't know mustangs very well.

It just has a bigger sail than the 67 and 8.

I feel like the sail panel is a little bit smaller.

Like, it dives into the trunk faster.

Are they fastbacks?

They look...

Yes, and that's what I was thinking about

was whether both of these cars are fastbacks.

I think one was a notchback

and one was a fastback because it had

mirrors on the back window.

But they might have been the same.

I'd have to look at the pictures again.

I don't know.

One of the Torino's that we had in was a fastback

and it was... that's a wild-looking car.

The 68 Torino.

Yeah, I bet.

They're kind of long.

It's a long back.

It's a long fastback.

That's it. It's a long back.

No butt.

Anyway, I like them.

It's a Ford Torino Cobra Jet.

Alright, let's talk.

That was advertised at 335 horsepower.

And it rang in

at 450 horsepower.

That's...

So 115 different...

Detroit's like, we're just going to put a weapon on the street.

Yeah.

They're cooking books big time.

Big time.

People die with these things?

Well, we'll get to that. I'm going to tell you a few more.

And then we'll talk about what happened.

Let's talk about the repercussions.

Yeah, because it sounds bad.

Spoiler alert.

Sounds a little scary.

We got another 69 Ford Mustang Mach 1 428 Cobra Jet.

And that one

335 again

and actual horsepower 450.

That's a lot.

Another 115 over.

That's a lot.

450 horse is

not something I would put a kid in.

No.

Like a grandma.

But do you think you would accidentally not drive it like a grandma?

But can you imagine it being like 1970

and then you've got somebody on the road

in like a

49 Chevy with a straight six

stove bolt and then you've got like

a 450 horse Mustang.

You know.

Just all impatient.

Yeah, running over this business coop.

I mean, granted, people didn't...

I feel like people didn't keep old cars

I mean, that's a 20 year gap and like

I feel like people were probably buying a lot of new.

Mm-hmm.

But they're out there. I'm sure there was a scene

you could think of where there's like a 49

or like a, you know, 55 even

and you've got this

450 horse.

That's still nasty. Yep.

Well, it's gonna get nastier. Okay.

69 Camaro. Okay.

Z01.

Advertised horsepower 430.

Yep, there. Actual horsepower

550.

That's insane.

What, your car is that?

That was another 69.

These are like 60s cars.

That's a lot. They were not fucking around.

That's a lot of power. Yeah.

120 over.

And probably, what?

Naturally aspirated too. Yeah.

Yeah. I was assuming

these are all big blocks, right? You think?

What did it say that one was? It doesn't say

Z01, so whatever engine that was.

And that's a what? A Chevelle?

Or a Camaro? A Chevy Camaro.

Okay, so it's first gen Camaro. 69.

Yeah, first gen Camaro. I thought that would

the first gen Camaro's were in 67.

789, right?

And then 70, the new body stop comes in. Oh, right.

First gen. Sorry. Never mind. Don't listen to me.

That's okay. I'm not listening to you. That's the thing.

I'm gonna assume that that's the 396

or it's a big block. Yeah.

I assume that's the big block car. Seems like maybe.

I mean, look, I'm not gonna pretend to be the definitive

source. I don't have

that level. Are you sure?

I don't have that level of trivia on these. Okay. Yeah.

You don't have to be the definitive. This is

where we get the news wrong. Yeah, exactly.

We're off the hook already. Yeah.

So the biggest and the nastiest

is the 69 Corvette

L88.

Advertise horsepower, 430.

Do you want to guess what the actual horsepower was?

520.

574. Holy shit.

For a little old Corvette.

574?

574.

According to the article that I read. That's outrageous.

Yeah.

What year car?

69. I think it was

every single one of these 69.

Yeah, these are all 69s.

Is that a C3 by that point?

I think it's a

Yeah, I think C3s were

happening by then.

Yeah, what's the jump? Yeah, I think that it's a C3

though with that notch back.

Yeah, what is the C3

68? I think it was like

67 to all the way to

87. I thought it was a slow window.

No, not this one. I mean the notch

back. They had less of a big

back windshield.

Hmm.

Hmm. I don't know if it's technically

called a notch back, but it seemed kind of notchy.

Yeah.

Seemed a little notchy.

Okay, C3 is 68 to

82. Okay.

So it's a C3.

Mine is a whole

big window.

Oh, it's the short little notch at that point.

I don't know. I think it was

like a little

because I think that went until the 70s.

Okay.

That's just my opinion.

Oh, it's your opinion, huh?

Yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

It's got a different back than what mine has for sure.

Some are not. Yeah.

I don't know the rules on that.

Well, as you guessed,

the insurance companies caught on

because they were like, why are these

low rated horsepower cars

crashing and having more

claims than

their competitive higher rated brothers?

Destroying themselves?

Yeah. Why are these cars

destroying themselves when they only have

like 330 horsepower?

Like they, you know, they figured.

It's still in the horsepower to self-destruct.

Yeah, but not compared to 450.

Hell, no, it's not. You're right.

Yeah. You're right. So they figured it out.

And then also the oil crisis happened

and they didn't have to down rate anymore

because they were down rated for real.

And we're talking about smog.

Yeah, we're talking about when the smog.

Well, smog, but also the oil crisis nobody wanted to.

So smog, I guess, did, right?

Yeah. It did take it down as far as physically.

Took it down a peg or two.

It took it down a peg or two.

The oil crisis, which meant nobody wanted

these big, fast, heavy

cars. Yeah, I mean, we're going from,

I mean, that's a funny thing to say, but

we're going from, because cars got

bigger and heavier

after that. They did?

I thought there was like little compact cars that started happening.

I don't know. I think about

Yeah, but think about like Sam's

Oh, yeah.

It's got the 429 in it, but like

it's a big car. That's true.

Or you think of like that 79 DeVille

425 motor in it. It's like the boat motor.

Right. You know, it's like, or is

a boat anchor? Sorry. Right.

So they did it for some people, but also people started

buying more compact cars than

they had before. It's like the

Uncle Buck is like the biggest engine

with the least power that car that he's driving,

which I think is a Mercury Marauder.

I think it's like a 79 Marauder

and it's like the biggest engine they made, but

the least amount of power.

It's like 400 something cubes and like

not even 200 horse. Oh boy.

Which is again, that's like how those

Cadillacs are that 425. Yeah.

Is like

very like

200 horse like right at 200, but it's got the

torque. It can handle

itself as a smooth ride.

But I mean like why they made this giant power

plant sort of a waste.

Yeah, maybe they thought the consumers

so wanted that and they hadn't like a few

companies though did start making the smaller

vehicles.

But then also the imports were going crazy.

People were buying bugs and Hondas and

Mazdas and

probably some Nissan's in there.

No.

Definitely Hondas were going. No.

The Hondas were going nuts. No Nissan's.

The Hondas were going crazy. Yeah, totally.

I mean Honda hit.

Honda was doing motorcycles and then they

started doing the cars and the Honda was a success.

Yeah. Still is.

The engine that Changebook talks about this

because it goes over DeLorean

and the GTO.

The GTO was a package of the Le Mans.

Right?

And that was because of emissions

or what was that? It's because

GM had already gotten in trouble with the Corvair

and they were like you can't go putting these

big engines in these cars and keep getting us in trouble.

Because they were already

on blast from the Corvair being

and that was the government. Dangerous.

Yeah. Mandas. Yeah, Ralph Nader made himself

a name off the Corvair even though it was just

malarkey. Yeah. Unsafe at any

speed. Yeah, a bunch of nonsense.

GM was already like no DeLorean

you don't get to put this big engine in this car.

It's not allowed. Yeah.

And he would get his crew

together at the tech center

and they would do things together on weekends.

So they like figured out how to shoehorn

this 383 into Le Mans

you know that I think

had a 360 or something like that before

and it was

they were like okay how can we do this and sell it

right but they couldn't re-badge a car.

The only way they could sneak it through

was sell it as a package and then the corporate

it wouldn't have to go through corporate approval.

Oh.

So the people that were already like watching

for him to do something stupid

knew or didn't know that this was

going on because it was just being sold as a package

and then it was like took off

and then they like did this

advertising because they did the tigers

you know they would have like tigers

in the ad and then they like they had

this one with like a scantily clad

woman and a tiger and they like had the

the tiger in the lobby with the car

and like an executive came in and was like

get this shit out of the lobby.

Whoa. Why?

They didn't like all that jungle theme

and like the youth advertising and stuff.

Oh. Didn't they want that market?

What?

Didn't they want that market?

They were gonna get in trouble.

Okay. With the same thing as before like

building these dangerous cars. Get in trouble like fines?

Yeah. Is that what? Okay.

Grounded. They're gonna be grounded.

Sort of. The first generation of the

GTO is credited with popularizing

the muscle car market segment in the

60s. And some consider

the goat to have started

the trend with all four domestic

automakers offering a variety of competing

models. So really some of this

technically right in

this Wikipedia article, whoever

wrote this is claiming the goat started it

which is you know I mean

that's you know

64, 64 and 65

was an optional package on the intermediate

lima. And let's see

let's get some facts other than

that. They did revive it in

04 and 06 which I thought was sort of like a

Oh right. Yeah. Kind of an insult.

It's a kind of okay looking car. Yeah, my brother

in law had one. He sold it and he's sad

about that. Yeah. It's okay looking

car. Also related

to the Malibu 442 Skylark

Grand Sport. 389

is the V8 and then later

the 400 which is 6.6

liters right. The 389 is 6.4

liters. That's huge. Yeah.

That's a big motor.

6.6. Wow. Yeah.

Compared to my little

350 in the Corvette and the Trans

Am. No, the Trans Am

only has a 305. Yeah.

It's a little WIMP 305. Yeah.

Kind of grumpy. I wanted that

five speed. So it was 325

horse 4800 RPM

with a single Carter AFB

which is what the Edelbrock is based on

as the Carter AFB

chrome valve covers, air cleaner,

seven blade clutch fan, floor

shifted three speed. That's like a $300 package

is what I'm reading to you. Okay. To get the

GTO. Like the early GTO.

It's quite a bit in the 70s.

There's the late 60s, isn't it? Yeah, sure.

I mean, Uncle Blayno talked to me about

like, you know, we were talking about like

van part prices that you would see in

the magazines like, you know, the ads

from van shops and he's like, you know, he's like, sure.

A sunroof was like,

he's like, let's say a sunroof is $20.

He's like, we still didn't have $20.

He's like, it was still unobtainium.

So, but you know, some, some of the other

vanners were like working in steel mills

and union jobs. And so

not everybody will say the same thing, but

Blayno was like, that was still a chunk of change.

He's like, it wasn't free. Right.

It was still sort of like unobtainium to a lot of us.

And Blayno was a teacher.

So. Oh, okay.

So he got paid shit. Yeah.

Even back in this country. Yeah.

He's paid a lot for being a teacher as Canadian

teachers. Oh, good.

Yeah. I have a friend that married one.

Yeah. He was like, she owns multiple houses.

Yeah. In Canada.

Yeah. I think we're super disrespectful to teachers in this country.

Yeah. I think so too.

I think it's, you know, I think it's sort of like baked

in misogyny because it's like

a lot of teachers are women. So like people don't value it.

Yeah. I just think it's like day care.

Yeah. It's not valuable to take care of your kids

for eight hours a day. Yeah. Exactly.

I just think it's not valuable to teach them so that

they can go on to be the leaders of tomorrow.

Yeah. Okay.

So there's a two speed and there's the tri-power

which, you know, 348 horsepower

at the wheels, you know,

sorry, that's on the engine.

That's BHP at the crank

and 65, you know,

it gets a little crazier.

You know, we're up to

355

424 foot-pounds of torque

and that's on the base engine.

It's kind of funny because the tri-power

it says had slightly less peak torque

rating than the base engine,

424 foot-pounds

compared to 431.

So that's kind of funny.

What's the transmission and axle ratio?

The point is that they were beast.

Yeah. I mean, that's it.

I'm trying to find a really, like, really fun fact here

but I think the fun fact of the GTO

is again how DeLorean was like

making his way up through the company.

Yeah. Because it wasn't much after this

maybe the president or the head of

design or

he was something, right? Yeah, right.

Like, let's look that up before I just get that wrong

because I think that he was the president

which is funny

because... And he's sneaking

in these bigger engines. It's kind of punk.

It is. Yeah. And then he was running the show

but I think, because I don't think he was

the head of design. Let me

find a DeLorean... He was the head of

something. That's what I feel like.

Yeah. I just don't want to, it's been a little bit

since I read that book. You don't want to get the news that wrong?

Well, yeah, I feel like

people would be pretty mad. I mean, I think that...

Yeah, we don't want to respect DeLorean like that.

Well, I just, you know, people are like

I'm listening. You couldn't bother to even

figure it out.

Listen,

no, we couldn't bother to figure it out.

Yeah.

I mean, I love this like

in 82 DeLorean was charged with cocaine

trafficking after FBI informant

James Hoffman solicited him as financier

in his scheme to sell

220 pounds

of cocaine. Yeah.

Worth approximately 24 million.

Yeah. And DMC was insolvent

at the time.

17 million in debt. I can't remember

if he got convicted of that

and he went to the prison.

Yeah. So, Hoffman had approached DeLorean

a man he barely knew with no prior

criminal record until DeLorean was able to successfully

defend himself at trial under the procedural

defense of police entrapment.

The trial ended in a not guilty

verdict in August of

84 by which time DMC

had filed for bankruptcy

bank rupture. Bank rupture.

Bank rupture. Bank rupture.

That's funny, sort of, right?

But I'm sort of missing the GTO

legend, so. Well, because, you know,

the cocaine thing is so much more important.

Yeah. He went Christian

too. Oh, well, people

get in trouble always do.

Don't they?

I think it would be fun maybe to do, like,

a little, an episode on him

in his life, maybe.

Or not his whole life, but, you know, the important

parts. Yeah.

You know what's interesting is that he worked

for Packard and I didn't know that

in the 50s.

And that's kind of interesting because

I was just talking to somebody about that last week.

I was like, what if, like, instead of a Buick

Enclave, you had a Packard Enclave?

You know, like, what if Packard had made it

instead of Buick Pontiac or Oldsmobile?

I mean, Packard was just as common

of a brand in Detroit at that time.

Mm-hmm. You know, all the little clips

on your wiring harness, those are Packard connectors.

Oh, okay. I didn't know, I did not know

that.

So, in 56, the Lorian

accepted salary offer of

$16,000 to join Pontiac.

$16,000?

Yeah, he came into Pontiac in 56.

I guess that's a lot in 66.

Oh, it's 56. Oh, 56.

Oh, yeah, that's a lot of money in 56.

That's pretty good money, right? In 56?

Yeah, and the general manager

was Bunky Knudsen.

Was Bunky Knudsen? Bunky Knudsen.

Bunky?

Knudsen.

Wait, first name?

Yeah.

Bunky? B-U-N-T?

His actual first name is Seaman.

Seaman. S-E-M-O-N.

Seaman, quote, Bunky

Knudsen.

With a name like that, you're going places.

Yeah.

Well, he was

a MIT engineering graduate

and at 42 was the youngest man

to head a GM division.

So, DeLorean and Knudsen were good buds

and he was his mentor.

But anyway, let me, again,

try to get some of these.

Okay, so

he did get

it says that he got total credit

for the success of the GTO

and that was the Pontiac's

renaissance, they say. 64.

I mean, that's a big deal,

the GTO. It says that several Pontiac's

advertising campaign themes met with

internal resistance, such as the Tiger campaign

used to promote the GTO and other

Pontiac models in 65 and 66.

In addition, there was Ed Cole's

decision to ban multiple carburetors,

a method of enhancing engine performance

by Pontiac that had begun with the

two four barrels and tri-power.

In response to the pony car market dominated

by the Mustang, DeLorean asked GM

executives for permission to market a smaller

version of the Pontiac Banshee show

car for 66.

That got rejected because that's when

energy went to the COVID.

And then, you know, Pontiac did a

firebird because Camaro was coming up

hot. So

I'm trying to fast forward down to

when he

got moved up there at GM

because I think he was 40.

Oh, wow, so he's young.

Yeah, so he's not president

because Ed Cole is the president.

He definitely was something.

Yeah, I'm really, like,

really biffin' it here.

He was promoted to the head of Chevrolet.

Okay. When did he, because

didn't he have a big part in the...

In 69, he's promoted to the head of

Chevrolet. In the firebird? Didn't he have a big part in the firebird, though?

Yeah, I kind of jumped over that.

So he wanted to do this, like, smaller

version of the Banshee, but

Chevy was putting energy into the Corvette

and then also their focus was on the

Chevrolet Camaro design. So Pontiac

developed its version and the firebird was introduced

for the 67 model years. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Right.

So shortly after the firebird came out,

DeLorean turned his attention to the development

of all-new Grand Prix, the division's

personal luxury car based on

the full-size Pontiac. I love a Grand Prix.

They're so pretty.

But Pontiac wasn't doing great by that point.

Yeah, Pontiac. What do you like about the Grand Prix?

I like the hood.

Is it two scoops? I feel like it...

I feel like I have a friend that has a Grand Prix

and it has the triangle...

Because the later Grand Prix

has two triangle scoops and Coop

put those on... He, like, found one

of the hoods behind a body shot and put that on his

Astro. So he's got those dual scoops

from, like, the 2000s Grand Prix, like

the late 90s. Oh, okay.

Yeah, I don't... I'm thinking of... She has, like,

a 70s one, maybe an early 70s one,

I feel like? Or when did they come out?

I think it's 69-70.

I feel like it has, like, a

triangle, like a

bird beak almost.

But I

could be wrong.

Yeah, does it...

Is it a part of the Monte Carlo? I just remember

thinking that it was a cool car.

Yeah, I mean

that is something that, like,

when I, like, went to that school

for restoration, quote-unquote,

there were, like,

there were cars in there that I was, like,

oh, I didn't even know that this was, like,

a label. Like the GS.

Oh, I know. Like the Pontiac GS.

I was, like, what's a GS? Oh, okay.

It's, like... Good stuff.

Basically, like, a 4-4-2. The Pontiac Good Stuff.

Yeah. Yeah, it's Pontiac Good Stuff.

Yeah.

Good shit.

Pick up the new Pontiac.

Well, I wasn't trying to bring profanity

into this podcast.

The Ghost Slow.

Yeah, new Pontiac Ghost Slow.

Oh, Pontiac.

Yeah, it's like a GoPro, but it's a Ghost Slow.

RIP Pontiac.

I know. Yeah.

RIP Saturn.

This is true.

Yep. RIP Plastic Car.

RIP Geo?

Saturn's had that, like, didn't they have a party

every year for, or that's what,

I feel like the commercials made it seem like

they had a party every year for owners of Saturn's.

Really? Yeah, like a reunion.

Really? I might be making this up,

but I feel like they had this thing

where you could go if you owned a Saturn.

I don't hate it.

No, I think it's really cute. Yeah, I don't hate it.

I feel like they did that, but I could be wrong.

Yeah. Why don't you Google that and find out?

Listen to this Washington Post headline.

What if you had a party and 28,000

Saturn owners showed up?

See? They did it!

Okay, I'm going to read an AI answer.

Okay. All right, because we love

AI answers. We love AI. We're so AI on this podcast.

The term annual Saturn party

must closely refer to the Saturn

homecoming events organized by Saturn Corporation,

a division of General Motors,

which began in 94.

The first such event held in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

Wow.

Attracted over 28,000 owners,

because when I think of Saturn owners, I think of Tennessee.

You do?

Like the earth-conscious plastic car.

That doesn't even sound right.

Anyway, Saturn

owners and their families making it a significant

gathering that celebrated the brand's

customer relationship and philosophy of

togetherness and teamwork.

These events featured factory tours,

concerts by country and gospel artists like

Winona Judge,

and BB and C.C. Winons,

or Winons, I don't know who they are.

I like the judge.

And opportunities for owners to meet the

employees who built their cars.

The enthusiasm of the attendees was notable

with many traveling long distances,

such as from Taiwan or Fayetteville,

North Carolina to participate.

I like that we go from Taiwan to Fayetteville.

North Carolina.

Yeah.

The event was described as a cult car-gathering

reflecting the strong loyalty Saturn owners

felt towards the brand.

And while the first homecoming was a major success,

with Saturn selling over 286,000 cars

in 1995

and topping the JD Power Customer Satisfaction

Survey, the company's long-term

sustainability faced challenges due to

financial pressures and internal

doubts within GM.

The Saturn homecoming events were a key

part of the brand's marketing strategy,

fostering a sense of community among owners,

but the company eventually

was discontinued in

2010.

2010. Wow.

It says discontinued by General Motors.

I think that's a weird part to include.

Yeah. Discontinued by some other

brand that doesn't have anything to do with them.

What?

It wasn't General Motors in charge.

Yeah, it's a GM.

I think that is a brilliant...

I think that's brilliant. I love that.

I think that's very sweet.

I think it's...

That's what any brand craves, right?

Is a connection with them.

Yeah, and they literally made one with their...

I'm glad you brought that up because I've never heard of that.

Yeah.

I'm surprised I knew that.

I think I knew it from the commercials.

I didn't know that people that had Saturns

loved Saturns.

Yeah.

It was like... I feel like it was

an earth-conscious car that was

successful

sort of like how the Prius is

but the Prius is like nobody's

honored to own a Prius but people were

really proud of their Saturn.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because they were convinced that the plastic panels were

better than metal panels.

Because they were lighter. I guess.

Lighter, durable.

I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know that much about them.

I didn't know that they were considered like an ego-friendly

car.

Yeah, I feel like it was an ego-friendly brand.

I like that they made it turn it into like a cult

following.

That's what you want if you can do it?

I mean, I hate that's what the GTO is doing, right?

Right, yeah.

But they weren't having like gatherings and stuff.

I mean, yeah, they didn't have 20.

Like the people made their own gatherings, their own

GTO gatherings.

Yeah.

I guess today if somebody was, if a car company

today was going to do a thing like that,

like do you think people would be stoked?

Yeah, I think the right brand.

What do you think is the equivalent?

Give me an equivalent. We'll see what my enthusiasm

is for it.

Hmm.

Well, there is a Honda but it's no longer

around so it couldn't be that one.

Like the Prius?

Cult classic.

Like you could do the Prius, like do you think

people would turn out for a Prius event?

I think they could, yeah.

You think 28,000 people would?

Or like 200.

Depends on how it's marketed.

I mean Toyota fans are hardcore.

Toyota fans are hardcore?

What about like a Nissan hard body?

If Nissan had done like the hard body truck meetup,

that could have been a big deal.

It would have been a mini truck crazy.

Yeah, what about Volvo's?

Because people are really into their Volvos.

Oh, yeah.

That's a great point.

A Volva owner.

A Volva owner for life.

Wow.

Volvo owner for life.

New bumper sticker.

Volvo owner for life.

But yeah, I feel like they go from,

you know, they keep getting them.

I think honestly,

if it's marketed right,

don't you think you could do that

with almost any car brand?

Well, okay, but let's say,

ones that are right for the picking.

Yeah, well, let's think of it differently.

Like what's a car that wouldn't even need the marketing

that people would be like, yeah, I'll be there.

Like F-150 once upon a time.

I feel like the 90s you could have done

an F-150 get together and people would have...

What about a Dodge?

Shit their pants to be there.

What about like a Ram truck?

Hmm, that is a popular big truck.

And trucks are...

Trucks are it in this country.

So yeah.

Trucks for sure.

What's the following now, oddly?

Oh, the Tacoma, yeah. Well, it's a great truck.

Yeah, but you missed the whole like

big, giant American truck market.

Like you go get a big old truck,

but it's not like you kind of missed out

on the big American truck thing.

You know what I saw new the other day?

Sorry, I'm going to switch the topic for a second.

Okay, go ahead.

I saw a new 4Runner.

And I was highly disappointed.

It's like the cab blended,

like the blended topper.

It had too many angles.

I don't know. It was too faceted.

It had too many facets.

Yeah, I wasn't into it

and I just made a mental note that I wasn't into it.

I saw a guy in a neighborhood with an ID buzz

and I wanted to be like, how is that?

Can you get to where you're going?

It seemed like I'm heckling him,

but I know it's got like a sort of a low...

Yeah, I saw an ID buzz the other day too

when it was dark out. Yeah, they're getting out there.

Yeah, I'm seeing them.

I've only seen one new charger.

It looked good.

The hood looked better than I thought it did.

Is that the last one?

Yeah, like it's got that big dive down in the center of it.

But are they...

I thought they weren't doing them anymore.

It's a challenger that they're not doing.

It's electric now. Remember, we went over this.

They were selling the four door one as an anniversary.

Then they had a tutor

that seemed to have two for sale,

25 and 26 for sale at the same time.

Okay, but they didn't do a challenger.

Is that the one they didn't do?

Or am I wrong?

It is the challenger.

The challenger went from being a four door to being a two door

and then also being electrical only.

With the Hellcat additional purchase motor

that can drop into it.

And be an absolute ripper.

All right.

I'm going to order one tomorrow.

I thought you would.

I found some money in the couch

and I'm just going to go ahead and get that.

Hellcat drivetrain on the way.

Order it up.

It's not a big deal.

I mean,

I think that

I think vanning,

at the time was a big

let's have an event for a group.

Okay, another obscure one

would be like I had that

48 flexible clipper bus

and flexible was the brand with E

was taken out so they could trademark the word flexible

because they made side cars.

They made flexible side cars for motorcycles.

Is how that company kind of started?

Yes, tell me more.

That was like that was long

before when motorcycles were still

an option

compared to cars but once cars got cheaper

than side car motorcycles sort of were

like pointless.

You know, because you could just buy a four wheel

car.

So anyway, they continued and they made buses

and it's owned by a guy that was a part of AC Delco.

And

they do Loudonville, Ohio

is where they were made and they have every two years

they have like a bus nationals with the

flexible clipper buses.

Oh, they do. Okay, but that's by

private or is that by the company?

No, that's by the bus owners

but I think they go to where

the Loudonville factory was

because they were made in Loudonville, Ohio

so they do the meet in Loudonville.

But the company's not involved.

Oh, the company's gone.

I'm just thinking about like

getting specific cars together.

Of course, Faye Butler is a part of the Pierce Aeros Society

and that's a really small group too.

It's a very small, not 28,000.

Wow, no.

It's smaller, you know, it's quite a bit smaller than

man nationals. But I'm just thinking about like, I mean

that one holds up, right? Model A, there's the Model A

SWAT meet coming up.

Model A is definitely

a car that draws a crowd.

I don't know. Yeah.

I think it's more generically like Holley

LS Fest, right? Like anything that's got

an LS motor in it.

Yeah.

It's always an LS motor.

That's the whole point. Oh, okay.

I'm just saying like rather than it being

a type of car, they're like getting together for a type

of engine. Right. Yeah.

Okay. So it draws some different cars.

So that's a thousand million people. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. A lot of LSs out there.

I mean, it's smart, right? Yeah.

I mean, it's like whoever, I mean

the Saturn thing, yeah, is totally

can't believe they pulled it off.

Brilliant. Yeah. It is. It's pretty impressive.

Yeah. You wouldn't think

but. Imagine the corporate

culture at the dealerships.

I mean, they had to be very surprised, but then

they probably like, you know,

you're forever just like chasing that

from that moment on.

It doesn't sound like they did it two years in a row.

I thought they did it till 2010.

The brand closed

in 2010. It didn't say they did the

Oh, okay. That they did it.

It said annual.

Yeah, but it didn't. I didn't get

attendance numbers for the. Oh, okay.

It might have petered out. It could have petered out.

Yeah. Well, it's cool that they even did it once.

Yeah. I guess. Yeah.

Good job, Saturn. I don't even know

the name of the Saturn car. I don't either.

I just, is it what the SL one

or something? Did they have names or was it just

a Saturn? Well, they had different models.

They eventually had that, you know, like

Evan Patterson drove that

Saturn SUV forever.

I forget what it was called. Oh, I didn't know they had an SUV.

Something that I know. You're just like

crazy. Yeah, because you see a Saturn

and you're just like, oh, you're still doing this.

Ouch.

I mean,

I do kind of think that car. What was that

called SL one?

Okay. I don't, I can't

remember when there's

like numbers and letters

involved in a model.

It's very hard for me to retain those.

If it's a word,

then I can retain it. But

does that make sense? Isn't that kind of weird?

What do you mean? Well, like

BMW always has a bunch of letters and numbers

and that's their models

or like sx1, b,

i, m3, 10

and I can't, I just

don't, the model

names go over my head.

Like when I see it,

like you just said SL one,

I already forgot it except for I did just pull it

up. But

it's like, if it's a name

like the judge

or the

Le Mans, like

the Firebird, the Trans Am,

I find those easy to remember.

But when it's

a number with

letters, I just don't

You have the first cars with the Saturn

SC and the SL. How do I know that?

Okay. Wow. I don't know. Production of both

vehicles started in 1990 as early

as 1991 model year vehicles

and then they did the SW

later in 93. Wow, SW

huh? Yeah. That really reached into the

alphabet there. Yeah, really.

Yeah, the first Saturn

was built in red 1990, I remember

the red model year SL2

first Saturn dealership opened in

Memphis, Tennessee. It's 1990

and the first Saturn

dealership opens in Memphis, Tennessee.

Wow. Where were you?

I was in freshman and high school. It was

launched as a different kind of car company.

I remember my friend

Travis's mom had one of these.

Like I was in elementary school and I remember

this car. I did

think it was cool.

Results of Saturn were more doubtful than positive.

What? Apparently

the project was too ambitious.

The car, the plant, the workforce,

the dealer network, the manufacturing process,

not even Toyota, a highly successful

and experienced automaker tackles more than

two new items on any single new project.

Oh, they did a lot, huh?

Yeah. Well,

they were trying to do something. Actual sales

never met the optimistic projected

targets.

In part because of the early 90s

recession.

It also approved cannibalistic

41% of Saturn buyers

already owned a GM car.

Oh.

Oh, oh, oh.

Ooh, and the fact that it

drained 5 billion from other

car projects stirred discontent within

GM's other divisions.

Everybody hated Saturn.

Hmm.

Who knew?

Who knew we'd be talking about Saturn?

That is not where I

envisioned this episode to go.

I didn't think we'd go from the GTO to the Saturn,

but honestly, it's kind of interesting.

I guess we did it.

It's such a weird little

sidecar. I don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah, so Pontiac's done too, huh?

Yeah, Pontiac was done in

the last

Trans-Am they did was in,

or Firebird was in 2012

and I think they went under

shortly after.

It's too bad.

Yeah, RIP. It was good times.

What does that mean if you own a Pontiac? They're more valuable?

Like I said, I just want to see

Packard come back. I don't care.

Maybe you should make that happen.

Like, yeah, me.

Maybe you should champion that.

Be the change that you want to see,

Rose.

Suddenly I realized how stupid

my idea was.

What?

Think about myself out in the world trying to champion

Packard.

Convince people.

I don't even know where to start

with that. It's so nonsensical.

That's what I get for saying such

a dumb thing. But it is fun to think of.

Like just a different world, you know,

where like, yeah, the Packard made it

and Pontiac Olds or Buick didn't

like want to pick one of the three, right?

Yeah, yeah. Like just change the P cars out,

change it to Packard.

So like, you get those transmissions that are called

a BPO where they have like the Buick

Pontiac Oldsmobile Bolt pattern,

but it's still like a 700 R4.

So it would be a Buick Packard

Oldsmobile Bolt pattern.

Okay.

Just like all the Buick names and just make them Packards.

Well, you've got a vision. You've certainly

got a vision. The Packard Solstice.

I'm sorry, the Packard Sunfire.

It's got a ring to it. The Packard J2000.

It's got a ring to it. Again,

there's that J2000.

Did they just come up with a name?

I know. That one is a little, it's a little weird.

I just can't. I can't

remember them. I think that's the problem.

Do you not have a problem remembering

the letters and numbers models?

I think eventually it gets hammered into your head.

People talk about them enough, you know, like the Jaguar XK

or like the XK.

Yeah. Eventually you just hear them enough

that you're like, oh, I quasi know about that.

Hmm. I mean, I think that's what makes

conversations so bad. You know, you talk to people

like, you know, it's car like, yeah, totally.

And they have no idea what you're talking about.

But just because something similar

exists, it sounds right.

Yeah. Okay. Fair enough.

Fair enough.

You been piled up?

Yeah. I mean, listen,

you done been Saturn up.

Should we say goodbye to people and thanks

for listening?

I mean, we got to let them go at some point.

You know, if you like our podcast,

subscribe, leave a review,

you know, tell your friends.

Yeah. I guess don't feel like bashful

about it. Yeah.

DM us if you have any questions or if you have any

topics that you want to cover.

It's at Car Crash, C-A-R-K-R-U-S-H.

Yeah. And thanks

for the people that wrote and

enjoyed the tribute to Mark and

appreciate that. It was nice.

I mean, they're friends and they wrote

and it's a very personal thing.

Yeah. Yeah. It was very sweet. Thanks for listening.

Anyway,

thanks again for listening and checking

out our podcast. I guess, yeah, rate it

if you want. Give us a rating.

Definitely give it a follow in your podcast thing.

So when it comes out, it gives you a little

beep and let you know. Let you know.

I mean, we do come out every Wednesday now, but

just in case, except for that one time where

it came out on a Sunday because we had that horrible

technical problem. Yeah, we did have a

technical problem.

Yeah. Okay.

Thank you. Thank you.

Bye.

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50:45

131. The Pile Up EP19: Cooking the Books

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