210: Service Information

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Hey, what's going on?

Automotive World.

Welcome to another episode of the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast.

My name is Sean Tipping and I'll be your host once again for today's episode.

Thank you for joining me Today on the show.

I'm going to talk about service information, the crucial part of our day-to-day as technicians.

Regardless of what area of the industry that you specialize in whether it's repair work, body work, diagnostics, programming, whatever it might be you're going to use this all the time and I can't see getting through my day without it.

I've serviced some shops in the past that don't have any service information or they're just getting by with Google and YouTube as their service information, and I guess that's better than nothing, but a really poor substitute for an actual dedicated service information platform.

So what I'm going to do today is talk about what I use, what I prefer, and I've had a lot of people ask me what do I recommend?

If I want to go out and buy a single platform or subscribe to a single platform for service information, what should I get?

And it's like scan tools, right?

What's the right answer?

All of them, and there might be a little bit of redundancy as far as service information goes, but I do use multiple platforms and I also want to put out there right now I am not sponsored by any service information platforms.

I don't get a discount or a kickback or any type of financial gain from what I'm going to recommend and what I'm not going to recommend here.

It is just from Sean's experience out in the field and doing different aspects of this profession right, being a repair technician from day one, you know, until the time I left Firestone, working in the college and helping students navigate service information, and then being out doing mobile.

What do I see as the most beneficial platforms?

If you're going to, you know, fork over some money from service information, and that's actually the first thing I want to touch on is people complain about the price of service information.

Just don't right If you are repairing, diagnosing, fixing vehicles for compensation which most of us are.

If they're listening to this, you know, with the exclusion of maybe some DIYers and there's even options for you where you can do.

You can purchase a single vehicle through some service information.

But if you're fixing cars and you're receiving payment for it which I hope you are, unless you're working on your own stuff service information is an absolute no brainer.

So I can't even comprehend why someone would want to pinch penny so much as to not pay for service information.

If that's you, you really got to consider what you're doing here.

Service information, realistically, if you're paying the most amount for a particular platform is going to be sub $300 a month, right.

In some cases, much less than that, half of that, right.

So if you're, even if it was 300, let's just say, the best automotive, the best automotive service information platform out there was $300.

Okay, and you go and you subscribe it and you have it.

You can make that up almost immediately.

If you have cars to work on, right, you can make that up in one or two jobs, okay.

And how long does that take you as an individual or even as a shop, right?

Especially if you're a shop and you have multiple technicians that are using the applications.

But let's say you're running a mobile business, right, okay, within a couple jobs by 10 o'clock in the morning on day one of the month, you've now made your money for the service information and every other time that you utilize that service information for the rest of the month, it is now making you money.

And how is it making you money?

We'll talk about that a little bit.

But it is giving you the information that you need to either figure out what's wrong with these cars or fix these cars, or find something on a car in order to get it done, and without it, you're going to be at a severe disadvantage.

Anyways, I probably don't have to preach that to most of the people listening to the podcast, but in case that's you and you need to hear it, just go buy it.

Right, if you're not using anything or you've been hesitating on dropping the money on a legitimate service information website, you're just getting by on Google or YouTube or whatever.

Just it will make your life so much better on the day to day working on cars, diagnosing cars, whatever you're doing out there, all right, cool.

So we got that out of the way.

Now what are out there for options and what are we looking for in a good service information platform, the one that we want right and of course, this is going to depend on the shop, what you're doing, how you're doing it, which one's going to be right for you, right, and so the things that I talked about here might not exactly apply to your shop or your day to day, but I do have a pheromone experience in various aspects of this industry.

So the big three that are out there for aftermarket service information are all data, mitchell and Identifix, and that's been true for a very long time.

Motologic is out there as well and I would say making some ground, and I've used it.

It's definitely a usable service information platform.

Limited experience with MotoLogic, so I probably won't talk about it too much, but I've used it and it does have good information.

There wasn't anything that really stood out to me that I didn't like, but I didn't use it as in-depth as the big three.

Again, the big three all data, Identifix, mitchell.

I've used all of those at various points in my career, almost my entire career.

Some of the first shops that I worked at we had all data.

We eventually got Identifix as a service information.

In addition to that, when I was at Firestone, we had Identifix and then we also had Mitchell as the main source of our service information and when I was at the college I used all three and we did that because we knew.

Again, these are the big three service information platforms.

We want students to have access to all three of them because we didn't know what they were going to be using when they got out to a shop.

If they're going to a dealership, they're going to be using the dealer platform.

It doesn't make sense to train students on every single OE platform.

We don't know exactly where they're going to land or who they're going to work for, so we do it on the aftermarket service info and in a lot of cases the information is directly taken from the factory service information.

But the likelihood of them seeing one of these three platforms out there is pretty high.

But anyways, I got a lot of experience using those different platforms and the advantages and disadvantages to all of them, and of course, I use it in my day to day doing mobile, and we'll talk about which ones I prefer for that and which I feel give me the best bang for the buck.

So, first off, what do you want in a service information platform that's going to cover all makes and models, and that's really what I'm gearing this towards, and maybe maybe you know what.

I'll pause here before we get into those platforms.

If you want factory service information, there is a website you can go to.

I'll put the link in the show notes.

It's OEM one stop dot com and it's got little pictures of the manufacturer emblems.

You click on and it brings you to a site where you can purchase a long or a short term subscription to OEM information.

Right, and there's not enough time on this podcast to go over every single one of them, nor do I really want to, or nor have I used all of them.

There's some manufacturers where I've gotten by 100% on the aftermarket service information.

I've never had to make a subscription.

Now there are cases where I definitely have had to make a short term subscription to OEM.

So there's times where I've done that and then I've been severely disappointed in what I found, though I know there's been a handful of times where I've dumped the money for a 24 hour or 48 or 72 hour subscription to OEM information off of one of these sites, and it's the exact same information that I found in aftermarket.

But, that being said, there's been times where I found TSB or star cases or things like that where I wasn't able to find them in the aftermarket information.

Maybe it's a little bit behind something to get transferred over, whatever it might be.

Sometimes you find the information is only through the OE and you're not able to find it aftermarket.

But anyways, if you want OE, that's a whole different story and I think you should at times you need to know that option is available to you.

But 90% of the time I'm using that aftermarket information because I'm paying a monthly subscription.

I'm going to go there first and see if it works for me.

So these big three that I have experienced with Mitchell is the first one and again, I use this.

For a number of years while I worked at Firestone and this was our main source of information.

We did have Identifix and I'll get to Identifix and everything about that but for repair procedures, for labor times, for component locations, we use Mitchell for most of that.

Now, that being said, I don't know that I fully understood the capabilities or the resources available within Identifix At the time I was at Firestone.

I kind of treated it like the way a lot of people treat it is just a archive of known fixes for vehicles, and that was the main thing I used it for.

I didn't use it as actual service information, but it can be.

We use Mitchell and that is something that should also be brought up is, whatever service information you decide to use takes some time to really understand what is available to you, how you find it within the system and make sure that you're not leaving things completely unused because you're paying for it.

You want to know everything that that service can do for you, so take some time here.

If you're subscribing you're a new, first time subscriber to one of these services I think every single one of them will actually have a representative called you or zoom link into your computer and set up a demo and walk you through the platform.

That's really important.

Otherwise, they have videos out there and or you could listen to this podcast and I'll tell you a little bit about it.

But make sure you understand whichever platform that you're actually using.

And going back to my original point here is I didn't quite understand Identifix that well.

So we use Mitchell for all that stuff and I will say Mitchell has most of the information you're looking for, again basic repair procedures, diagrams, things like that.

Now, this is circa 2011.

And so things do change all the time, and things have probably changed since the last time I used Mitchell.

But one of the things that I liked about Mitchell at the time when I was at Firestone compared to other service information systems that I had used all day that Identifix being the big ones was that it had the redrawn diagrams.

Now, nowadays, every single platform has redrawn wiring diagrams, but I really like these when I first saw them, mainly because they would group systems onto one or maybe two diagrams, right, so I wanna see every component involved with the starting or charging system.

I can just click on starting system and it shows me every component involved.

All right, oh wait, the instrument cluster is part of the starting system on this vehicle.

I had no idea, right, but it plays a role with the AnifF system or something like that, right, and just a random example of something.

But it would put all the components that are involved with a particular system, like the horn or the power windows, onto one or maybe two or three pages, depending on how many diagrams are included.

But it's all there, right?

Whereas sometimes with factory service information or factory diagrams it's not so easy, right?

It's strewn across six or seven different diagrams.

A CAN bus network or a data network is another example, and on some vehicles now they still have to do that with the redrawns.

But you could get a vehicle's entire CAN bus in one diagram where, depending on the application, the manufacturer, that might be six or seven different diagrams that you've gotta scroll through.

So I really liked that.

I really liked it for Europeans that was not a great and probably still ain't a great European technician.

And the track diagrams.

I had no idea what was going on there, so I almost had to use the redrawn diagrams at that point.

Then it was, that was their strong suit back in the day.

Now, again, I realize every single one of these platforms that I'm talking about now has redrawn diagrams and they all look the same.

So I'm not sure exactly the legalities and how they worked that out, but they all look almost identical between the three platforms.

So that doesn't quite apply, but that was one of the things that I actually did like about Mitchell.

Now, the rest of Mitchell I didn't love.

And again I do wanna say this with understanding that things change all the time.

The platforms are going to be updating, they're going to be improving how things are constructed and how things are found, and even within the time that I worked at Firestone, they did make changes to how to find the information, and that's another big one that I wanna talk about.

That I think is important for whatever platform you're using, is how easy or difficult is it to find the information that you're looking for right?

I hop onto Mitchell and I want to know the torque spec for the intake manifold bolt, or I wanna know the torque pattern for the intake manifold bolts and the procedure for this.

How easy or difficult is it to find that within the service information?

Now, of course, you would hope that they have it right, and that's another thing that we'll talk about is just the information in general.

But if they have it, how easy is it to navigate to that point within the service information right Now?

My personal opinion on Mitchell and again I'm saying this with understanding that things may be changed in the last couple of years I haven't used it well, I haven't used it in about a year since I left the college, but it was rather difficult to navigate through the system to find what you were looking for in comparison to some of the other platforms and how they had it arranged it.

Now, I also say this understanding that there's a bias based on kind of what you're used to using and the setup and the platform that you're used to seeing, like I was used to the way that general motors set up their electrical systems and their drivability systems and their scan tools, and so Volkswagen was 100% as foreign as it is to the US to me, and so I hated it, right, but a guy from Germany

that works on them all the time, that's normal to him and the same thing could be true.

So tell me, if that's the case, that you actually really like the way that Mitchell organizes their information.

But me personally, I did not like the way that you had to search or to try to find information.

And I learned and actually it was a strong suit of mine because we would use Mitchell for our service information and other techs would struggle in the same way that I did to find a repair procedure or to find a component location, and I forced myself to figure out where this information lived in the Mitchell database.

Of course it depends on the vehicle that we're talking about, but I was able to at least get an idea of okay, they kind of do it this way.

They put these components here and just it wasn't intuitive to find the information that you were looking for.

Even the search function, right, they had a keyword search is what I remember, and the problem with that is it might bring up what you're looking for, but it's gonna bring up a hundred other documents, and what they love to do is bring up these general documents that I don't know why they were fed into every vehicle, but they literally were built to apply to any vehicle.

They were just gonna talk about fuel injectors and they would pull up these documents under your search and they had nothing to do with the vehicle that you had selected and set up.

And so you're clicking on these things are like this doesn't apply, this doesn't apply, this is general information, general descriptions that don't apply to this vehicle at all, and I always hated that.

And so you had the keyword.

Search.

For me was just cumbersome and it didn't work well for me, so I took the time to figure out exactly where the information actually was within the service.

So you click engine and you click mechanical and then you clicked R and R and then you can be into the procedure that you're looking for, and that's how I found most of the stuff in there, but it just didn't seem intuitive to me.

So I guess that's kind of where I'm leaving.

Mitchell, I know that's not a glowing review, but I don't use it right now currently.

I didn't see any reason to subscriber to pay the money for it, so I don't use Mitchell, but I know it's a very popular one out there so I did wanna bring it up and apologize if they've improved things, you know, over the last year.

Someone please do correct me if I'm wrong on what I'm saying, but that was my personal experience.

So the other two are all data and identification.

I'm gonna go with identification next.

It's probably the one that I've had at almost every place that I've worked.

I had it at the very first shop that I was a full-time tech at.

I had it at Firestone, I had it at the college.

I have it now and again.

Identification obviously known for and I think one of its strong suits as to why you might wanna consider paying for it is the archive of fixes that are built in, along with service information, and that is one thing I didn't quite realize back in the day, that it also had really good service information built into it, but it's the archive of fixes and the ability for the hotline functions where you can call in and have an individual specializing in one vehicle

line to help you out.

And, of course, that's an additional fee, but that's a service that's available to you and it was a really powerful tool, especially when I was starting out in this industry.

Right, you have your vehicle punched in and you're gonna get 10 different scenarios of that vehicle and what fixed it and they're gonna rank it by the amount of confirmed fixes for the problem that you typed into the search bar.

That was pretty huge for me as a new technician learning all this stuff.

Now the argument could and I think should be made Fonzel talked about this on one of his podcasts is, while that's really helpful to you as a technician trying to find his way in this industry and not piss off customers by making bad calls or not fixing the vehicle, and You're also trying to make money that was a really great thing.

But it can and is and was used as a crutch.

Right, and meaning you're not going to develop your own diagnostic Muscles and that's usually where we bring identification back to right.

No one's hammering on the repair info that you find in Identification is the same as what you find in all data.

It's the confirmed fixes and how those are used as a crutch instead of exercising your own diagnostic ability.

And and Matt made a really good point that I guess I'd never quite connected the dots on it and this is a downside to Identification is, I think, if you've used identification in the last few years or use it currently.

I think Anybody would admit that the last 10 years of vehicles on Identification right, maybe a little bit less, but honestly, right around 15 or so you go in and there is way less confirmed fix and information on these vehicles.

And Matt brought up the point that the more often that a system like identification is used to fix vehicles, the less often technicians are actually figuring this stuff out for themselves and and the less often those fixes are now going to be placed into the archive.

Right now it gives you an option to say, hey, what fixed it?

I would say most people don't do that, I don't do it, I don't want to give them free information.

Right, that was my thought.

I was like, well, I'm paying for this, I'm not gonna give you free info.

Well, I Maybe in a way you could have looked at it like it's helping you down the line, okay, but what math point was was if all we're relying on is Statistic based fixes, right, it fixed the problem this amount of the time Over time, that the more that you do, that the real work that happens in order to make a fix isn't happening Right, and so that information

isn't getting pumped back in, as often.

Rights, people are still doing it.

They're still getting fixes, there's still stuff on newer vehicles, but there's way less than there used to be, and that's my honest opinion and someone again can correct me if I'm wrong.

But thinking back to Saley 2008 and what I could punch in a identifix and see for the vehicles, I think the information was a lot more than what I'm seeing on vehicles today, and I think that does play a role in it.

Right that we're just giving up our actual diagnostic thought process and working through the problem, getting our butts kicked and making a bad call and Just relying on the statistical base confirmed hit to make our decision for us and relying on that being the fix.

You know 80% of the time and then you don't make a note of it and eventually you just have less confirmed fixes and now we're back to hey, we gotta figure it out on our own cause.

There's no identification hit to tell us what it is.

I should make a note that all data and, I think, mitchell to both have a community based, somewhat similar system to the confirmed fixes on Identifix.

Now, identifix had a whole group of people that you know worked in a call center basically, that were developing this library, and they still do.

As far as I'm aware, they were purchased from, or Solera purchased them a number of years back and I know things have changed a little bit there.

But all data and Mitchell have a community based platform where people can kind of put up confirmed fixes and stuff.

Those, in my personal opinion, are more or less just forums.

Now they might be geared more towards professional technicians than just a Google forum, but I'll be quite honest, I haven't found a lot of value in them.

Someone again can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sure there is value out there, I'm sure you can find some good stuff, but it's one of those things where it's like how much do I have to sift through in order to find something that's, you know, legitimate?

And I don't know what the vetting process is for the information that gets put up on those community based setups.

I don't know, I haven't felt that it is quite as valuable as the fixed database that's in Identifix and, truth be told, I use it all the time.

Right, the confirmed fixes, because I think it was Brian Pollock who was on the show a while ago.

If there's a hundred confirmed hits on something, yeah, I'm gonna go look at that first, I'm gonna test that first.

Now you build in actual testing to what's most likely to be failed and you got a winner there.

That's where it's at.

But what do you do when there is no confirmed fix, there's nothing.

You type in something in that search bar and nothing comes up.

Okay, what do you do now?

Now you actually have to use it as a service information, and I do want to point that part out about Identifix.

Is I actually really like it as a service info?

I really like how their information is organized, I like their search function and that's something that should be a strong point of any service information system.

Is the search bar, the search ability of the system.

If it's not easily searchable, if you can't just type something in like you would Google, and then it's gonna give you you know, point you to the direction or pull up some things for you.

If that doesn't function smoothly and intuitively, I'm not using it.

And that was one of my big sticking points with Mitchell, honestly, that I didn't like it because that search function didn't work very well.

Now there's some value to knowing how to actually get to that piece of information within service information, but having a search bar that gets you there a little quicker is also really nice.

Because there's such a bulk of information on a lot of these cars.

It's like let's speed up this process a little bit.

Now, one of the reasons I like the search function with an Identifix is because when you search something let's say I search PCM right, power train control module what it's gonna pop up with is everything it has relating to a PCM, but organized by a specific category, right.

So it's gonna have component locations, it's gonna have TSB, it's gonna have wiring diagrams, it's gonna have R and R and you can click on those links and it'll blast you down to the part of the page that has that.

But then there's a link where you can open it and it just opens up basically like a PDF window, but it doesn't bring you to a separate page.

Right, you're still on the same scrolling page that you initially started on and you can go up to wiring diagrams.

Click that, open it up.

Scroll down a little bit.

Open up the component locations.

Okay, there's where the PCM is.

Scroll down a little bit more.

Open the connector pin out there.

It is right there.

Awesome, and you can have all of that and scroll up and down if you want to.

Right, you can open it up in separate pages and this kind of comes down to however.

You know you prefer the information being presented to you, but I really like that where everything about the PCM that it has is right there.

This can be a detriment here and there.

European cars come to mind.

Sometimes it pulls up repetitive information.

Where you have Volkswagen, I had recently where it's like there was 10 diagrams all that said pretty much the same thing and you had to really pay attention to the details and it mattered the year, the vehicle and the application and all that stuff.

And sometimes it gets a little excessive what it pulls up and you have to be creative in how you find and organize the information.

But I like that it pulls everything up on one page and again what the searchability and the search bar of a service information system do for you.

I think it's really important.

One of the things that I think is gonna happen in the next few years is these companies that provide these platforms are gonna be integrating some large language models into their systems and they'll be training them on their data.

And once that is integrated, whoever is first to that, I think it's gonna have a huge advantage over the other ones, and I'm actually putting on a class a little bit later this fall on the details and the future of that, and I think that's gonna be really powerful.

But for right now they haven't done that.

As far as I've seen, it's still kind of the same search bar that we've been using for a long time, but it is important and it is helpful.

With that, before I move on from the searchability part, don't forget about control F, and that goes for a lot of things.

If you're using a computer at all, that is your best friend.

In order to find something on any screen, on any document, control F pops up a little bar.

Push what you want in that bar, like you're looking for Power Window, and it's going to let you jump to each part of the pages around.

So you got a lot of stuff open Long document, huge PDF, opens a TSB.

Don't forget about control F.

That's useful in all of these platforms, it doesn't matter which one you're talking about.

All right now to the downside of Identifix, from my personal opinion and this is circa August 23,.

I didn't know all this feel this way and I actually tried just having Identifix as my sole paid for service information when I went mobile and it kind of worked for the most part.

But here's where it fell short the information that you can find on new vehicles and I'm not talking direct hits now, right, I'm okay with that.

What I do for a living is figure out the problems that the direct hits didn't figure out but the actual information for vehicles, like diagrams and component locations and connector pinouts and R&R procedures.

It seems to be missing a lot of new vehicles, and I'm talking 18 plus in a lot of cases, and I'm seeing a lot of 18s.

Now, right, that's starting to get to the point where they're hitting these shops in the aftermarket world.

And whoever is in charge of that with Identifix?

I'm sure it's not an easy task and I'm sure you gotta pay a lot of money and jump through a lot of hoops, but, man, they are missing a ton of information on newer vehicles.

So if you're working on new model stuff, I would be very at least aware of that before you make an Identifix subscription, and I have been really let down in the last year when it comes to new vehicles and the actual information that's available there.

So that brings me to all data.

That's the other big one that I use and I did make a purchase to all data.

They also have a very friendly organization of their information.

Now, some people don't like it, but I think here's why I like it it has almost never changed in the time that I've used it, and this is going back to I think I worked at a place that had it on CD, right, you would order a new CD and then load it and you would pull it up and they haven't changed their format of organization for their info, like ever, and I guess it's a form of familiarity that makes so

much sense to me, like I know exactly where to go with all data to find what I'm looking for.

It's just set up in a way that and again, this might be just a bias, because I know I've used it so many years, but that's part of why I like it so much.

It's familiar and I know where to find things.

Now, that being said, they do have a very powerful search bar up in the top right.

You use that, boy.

You can find what you're looking for very quickly and it cuts out all the fluff.

In my opinion it will pull up what you're looking for.

Now I still like Identifix is set up where everything is on a scrollable page and you can open documents all on one page.

That I really do like.

But the search function to find what you're looking for in all data is pretty good.

It's gonna get you to what you need to find with some pretty good accuracy.

Now, the other thing about all data that I like is the downside to Identifix is that it covers new vehicles fairly well.

Right, I'm not seeing a bunch of 23s right now in August 23, so I don't know on that stuff, but 21s it's been the place to go for me to find the information, the diagrams and stuff like that.

So, like I mentioned, they have the community stuff.

I'll give that a meh.

It's not the best.

I don't think it's quite the same as a confirm fixed setup on Identifix.

It's something.

So if I'm to take all of that into consideration and say, okay, if I'm gonna buy one, which one am I gonna get?

Right and I have Identifix and all data, those are my two main and I'll buy a short-term sub to an O if I have to.

But if I was gonna buy one, what am I gonna get?

It probably is gonna depend on what I'm working on.

If I'm seeing a ton of old stuff, identifix is probably the way to go because the archives are really strong for older vehicles, the informations all there, all the other things I said I liked about it.

But if you're seeing a lot of newer vehicles, maybe you're working a body shop and some of these service informations do have like separate collision purchases that you can or subscriptions that you can have.

But if you're seeing a lot of new vehicles, all data is the way to go, just due to the fact that Identifix doesn't seem to have the information in a lot of cases.

And what do you do when you're paying for a service and it doesn't have any information?

And that's a good question.

Let me answer that.

Actually you can submit a request, probably through all of these services, but I know, with Identifix you can submit a request and they will send information to you in a lot of cases, and I am aware of that.

But my problem is is this car's in front of me right now, or maybe for you it's in your bay right now?

You want that diagram right now because you're on the clock, right?

I've gotta get to my next job in an hour.

I don't wanna have to come back here to try to fix this thing Once somebody sends me a diagram.

And then what if it's the wrong diagram?

What if I punched in the wrong RPO code or something and then I have to do it again, like when I get to a point like that, it's nice to have the ability to reach out to somebody.

That's great and that's awesome.

But I just want it there.

I wanna be able to pull it up, get my info, fix the car, move on with my day, and so I'm gonna pay for the service that does that.

That's my opinion on service information.

So take for what you will a bright, a biased personal opinion based on what I've done in the automotive industry.

But hopefully I've given you some ideas, some to think about with what's out there, if you've got some different opinions, some additional information, some things you'd like to share?

Let me know about it.

Post it up in the Facebook group.

I don't know everything.

I'm sure there's things about these platforms I'm unaware of.

I'm not utilizing their full potential, reasons why one's maybe better than the other.

Maybe you agree with me and just buy them all.

Let me know.

Let me hear about it.

That would be awesome.

But with that all out of the way, let's get out there and start fixing the world, one car at a time.

Iqueymatch.

210: Service Information

Volkswagen I

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