214: Chris Higgins

Welcome to the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast.

We're going to explore ways to sharpen our diagnostic skills, find learning resources and hear from experts in the automotive field.

This episode is brought to you by L1 Automotive Training and Keith Perkins.

If you're looking for education on module programming, j2534, eprom work, key and immobilizer, electrical diagnostics or drivability diagnostics, keith has a website, l1trainingcom that's got over 60 hours of training videos on all those subjects and more.

When I first started out doing mobile, I utilized Keith's videos on module programming and J2534 in order to get my head wrapped around what I would need for the tooling, the computers, the software setups, what kind of obstacles I would be up against when I'm out there programming modules on cars, and it was a huge benefit to me.

I continue to use the training videos that he has on his website.

I strongly recommend checking out L1trainingcom.

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Hey guys, if you're looking for programming laptops, you want the laptop setup ready to go for programming control modules on vehicles.

You need key cutting equipment.

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Isaac is your guy.

There's all that stuff available for purchase and the support that he offers, along with the purchase, has been outstanding.

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The link will be in the show notes.

Hey, what's going on?

Automotive World.

Welcome to another episode of the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast.

My name is Sean Tipping.

I'll be your host once again for today's episode.

Thank you so much for joining me on the show.

This week.

I've got Chris Higgins.

Chris is joining me.

He's going to tell everybody about his journey and experiences in the automotive world being a dealership technician, a field service engineer for General Motors and a technician in the independent world, and he's going to share some case studies with us.

This was great to meet Chris.

He's actually not too far from me, so I always like meeting people that are local to me.

That's pretty cool, but anybody that's passionate in the automotive world is always a great discussion, so I enjoyed this quite a bit.

I think you will as well.

With that out of the way, let's jump in.

Good evening, chris.

How are you doing tonight?

I'm doing fantastic, Sean.

How about yourself?

You know I can't complain.

The temperature here dropped it was 100 on Tuesday and then it was like 65 the next day and it was about that today too, and it's just amazing.

So for all of you down in Arizona and Florida I'm sorry, but it is absolutely beautiful up here in Minnesota right now.

So doing the mobile gig is just perfect right now.

I got no complaints.

That's awesome.

I share probably the similar weather as you do.

Here just north of Fargo I kind of work in the Moorhead area.

Very similar weather Winters are really cold and summers it's hard to escape the heat and humidity sometimes.

Cool.

Have you always been around that area, or what?

I was born and raised in Fargo, raised in Ligerwood, north Dakota, on a farm, in a nutshell, went to high school there, worked part time, went to North Dakota State College of Science and I received my associate's degree in automotive technology.

From there I moved up to Fargo this would have been 06 or 07.

I started at Gateway Chevrolet in town, which is a Chevrolet dealer, starting quick loop, got kind of stuck in there for a year or two and finally clawed my way into the shop, Did the dealer thing until about 2013.

Halfway through that there was a Hyundai Nissan technician as well too.

I achieved a gold certification as a Hyundai technician.

From there, just kind of things played out.

I moved to the independent world and from there I got the opportunity to be a GM field service engineer.

That was a great opportunity.

But for local reasons technicians and just being in the automotive field for so long a great opportunity opened up at home.

It keeps me closer to home too.

Yeah, I recently got back in the independent world in March or April.

I'm loving it right now.

The shop owner is receptive to my ideas, implementing a lot of different stuff.

We recently are moving into a rather large shop.

We're selling two small shops eventually and moving into our large one.

So yeah, a lot of great things are happening.

It's busy.

I love it.

I love everything I've learned along the way with the different shops and companies and corporations I've worked for.

Yeah, that sounds like quite a bit of various experience and perspectives throughout the industry.

How does one become, or get to the point of, a field service engineer with a company like GM, but I guess any of them?

I don't even know what the process is.

Do you set out to do that?

Or is it something where you're recognized in doing what you're doing, like hey, you might be a good fit for this.

Or is this something you have to pursue, or is it pursued at all?

Maybe people don't like doing it?

I don't know.

I really know very little about the dealership world.

Yeah, no, for me.

We'll rewind a little bit.

It was kind of a jump for me because I was in the dealership world and out of it for four or five years.

And then one of my close friends that I met at one of my kids' soccer practice once was actually our AC Delco distributor for the shop I worked at.

And then he was moving up AC Delco and GM were hand in hand, basically one family, different divisions and he had told me that they were going to add a bunch of field service engineers and he's like he thought I'd be really good at it because he saw the work I did in the shop and stuff like that.

So I'm like, well, how does one go about it?

And he's like, well, get your resume ready.

And when you go online and you show me where to go to apply and submit your resume, it was a long, tedious process but well worth it.

From when I submitted my resume and application it was about a five-month process until I actually got onboarded Initial interview with people in the resource office and then team leaders from the field service engineering team each there's four different ones and you had two separate interviews with two at a time and yeah, from there it was kind of a hurry up and wait deal Get the OK, accept the job, and then from there there's kind of a lot of ones

.

We're getting a lot of stuff sent to you, getting your laptop, and then the heartbreaking deal, because the shop I was at the owner, he was really good to me, so actually I put my notice in at that time.

That one was a tough one.

But all the cool people I've met when I was a field service engineer, I mean I wouldn't have traded it for the world.

It was kind of an eye-opener.

I was always a very good producer and an average tester, a diagnoser, but just a different way of thinking that I gathered will be in a field service engineer.

There's always a car as a kicker, but nowadays but it just gives me a whole perspective at looking at a vehicle and our process, our diagnostic strategy that everyone approaches a vehicle with.

But so I did the field service engineering gig.

That got me.

Really.

You guys talk about the PicoScope, the UScope.

Shout out to AES Wave here, sean.

They should give you some kickback.

You should see my.

I never knew about AES Wave until I heard it from your podcast and I'm like, holy crap, I did end up buying my own before I left.

Well, go ahead.

Oh, I see.

Yeah, it's such a cool little tool.

It's fantastic.

Yeah, the UScope.

I never even know.

There was a cool pocket size one channel scope, until I started searching around and add to cart and I'm like, oh, here we go, I'm there.

And then I bought a Pico 4225 from there too.

Just the two channel scope was more in my budget and yeah, I've been incorporating that a lot back in the independent world.

A lot of shops, you know, swap nostics.

I heard that term thrown around on a few podcasts and I kind of chuckled about that and that is a real thing when I'm at now.

They're really receptive to my ideas and actually the technicians come up and ask me show them different things.

I've showed them how to scope, like a digital wheel speed sensor versus an analog one, different signals you're going to look at.

And it just kind of opens their eyes a little bit and helps them go down the right path with vehicles.

Yeah, I mean it's been a crazy experience From the dealer, independent and corporate side of things.

I know a little about a lot and a lot about a little, so I mean kind of well rounded, I guess I'd like to describe myself.

Yeah, that's really cool Because you know I came up solely in the independent world.

I was at a Toyota dealership actually for about six months when I was still in school I was still in tech school and I just did oil changes there at this Toyota dealership.

And at the time that was kind of like the big leagues was going to the dealership.

But when I got in there I was like all you want me to do is oil change, run it through the car wash, oil change, run it through the car wash.

And I talked to some of the other guys that were working at the shop and they had been doing that for two or three years and waiting to get up, to moved up to the point where they could do coolant flushes and brakes, and I was like I want to do that stuff now and then I want to be doing engines in a year or two or something more challenging, more exciting.

And so that's what led me to the independent world was I was impatient and I didn't want to climb the totem pole, if you will.

I just wanted all the big stuff right now.

So I left the dealership after about six months and I went independent and that was my whole technician career, so it seems interesting to see how people take different paths through the industry to get where they're at.

No one.

That's exactly it too, sean.

When I first came up I was young, right, and when Fargo was honestly only not that far from where I grew up a little over an hour.

But when I first got up here in Fargo this had been like oh six and oh seven.

Starting at the dealer, I kind of thought that was like the pinnacle.

There wasn't much technician turnover then.

So when I finally got to the shop I kind of got thrown into the wolves per se.

So it was a learning curve, quick and it's like all right, what are the other guys doing?

Trying to study pattern failures, to kind of make ours, because they did give you like a 60 hour guarantee when I started years ago now.

But I mean that really, once you start growing and get a family, that really doesn't cut the cheese per se and it's so.

Yeah, that was kind of, from my experience, like the pinnacle being a dealer tech.

But recently now I see, especially at the bigger ones, kind of like a turnover, a very high turnover rate, and I kind of started asking to them.

It all comes back to the same thing Trying to beat the warranty times and this and that and the two tenths, the three tenths and them having to write and document a story that takes longer than the repair, when they're not really getting compensated for it.

And then, when I was a field service engineer, there are some dealers being proactive about taking care of their technicians, compensating them, getting them to training and stuff like that.

But then, just like any other independent shop too, there are some dealers that I was involved with that really didn't want to do any training.

Well, we're never going to deal with that, and I've heard that too, and I tried to get their attitudes changed because I'm like, whether you like it or not, we said the same thing about carburetors years ago.

Technology eventually has a way of being forced on us, whether we like it or not.

You got to kind of learn to adapt or bow out, you know.

Exactly.

That car is going to be in your bay at some point or another, whether you like it or not, and then are you just going to send it to the dealer or say I can't fix it, or are you going to figure it out?

Right, and then there's a lot of amazing dealers out there, but then there's a lot of vehicles too I can kind of briefly share.

It was from a small dealer I don't know where, but I was back in the independent world here.

It was like a 2018 Equinox and for whatever reason they had it at a small dealer, our driver window wouldn't roll down.

So they got to the conclusion they put a window motor in it and I don't know the whole story, you know.

So I'm not going to throw any shop names or nothing out there, but it ended up in my bay and they're like and the customer was mad because this shop dealership put a window motor in it and the window still did not work.

And they sent them down the road and still made them pay for the window motor.

And I'm like what?

So I don't know if they had another shop diagnose it, and that dealer put a window motor in there and the customer just said put this in.

I already know what's wrong.

Anyway, long story short, it ends up in my bay and I'm like OK, well, let's get the scan tool plugged in, you know.

Let's look at inputs.

You know the BCM.

Seeing the switch input, I'm like OK, fortunately the panels come off easy on here and you know there's a power and ground and they both load tested fine with the bulb and I'm like, ok, well, what a lot of people don't realize is all these window motors and modules and stuff on vehicles nowadays are essentially a little module itself.

So this window motor is on the LIN bus.

So I got the Uscope out and the Greenwire I'm probably wrong, I believe it was pin six at the window motor connector.

I back probed in there and, keon, I had just a solid 12 volts.

I'm like, ok, that's weird, that's normally when the module is in sleep mode and then the BCM sends the wake up signal out and it pulls it to ground or to zero volts and then they start communicating.

So I'm like, well, that's weird.

So I know this window motor is good, I know I have power and ground, it's at its 12 volts, but it's not being told to wake up.

Well, long story short, you chase it up a little ways and there's a broken wire in the door.

So if we restore that little small LIN bus wire and repair that wire, everything's happy.

It probably didn't need the window motor and then switch and everything else.

And I had about an hour and a half two hours into it just covering my basis, because I'm like all this customer is not really happy.

Already they had a switch and then a motor and we're still here and I'm like, well, that little LIN bus wire is pretty important now that these newer vehicles, so I was kind of happy to find that for them.

It's really funny I don't know if funny is the word, but it's interesting to see how easily something like a Lin bus can defeat a lot of technicians that are out there that you know, like you mentioned, haven't taken the time to do any training in the last 10, 20 years.

Right, and they're very good at what they do as far as repairing vehicles and hanging parts and being efficient at their job and making a lot of money and having a busy shop, like all that stuff they're very good at.

But that one little broken wire in a door for Lin bus.

I just had one on an f-250 not that long ago.

It was a relatively new one but the harness is kind of out of place and the wire that happened to get cut on a metal part of the door was the Lin bus for the door switch and so you know, none of the functions work and they replaced three, four different components, you know, door switch and window motor and this nothing, nothing's making a difference, right, but they mean I scan it and there's a communication code, right, can't talk to blank module

or whatever.

And if you've done the training and if you take the time to understand these systems, that one is really really easy problem.

But for somebody who doesn't decides, you know, for whatever reason, right, there's another.

I'm not trying to, I'm really not trying to judge anybody out there, because everybody's got a different you know thing going on in their life and their shop is different and you know they might be busy beyond belief.

But when you don't do that stuff, man, it's just something simple like that can beat you up and I guess I don't want to be in that position, right?

I've been there a lot beat up by a stupid Lin bus.

Yeah, I have been there, but I'd rather not go back as well, I guess, and that's you know what that same one to.

I can rewind a little bit.

You know, I did do a scan on there too and there was a Lin bus code, but it was really nothing related to the driver door or the window, but that got my brain turning.

I'm like Lin bus, okay.

Well, then I pull up the data communication schematics, hit the Lin bus.

I'm like, well, let's see what's all on this Lin bus.

And I'm like, hmm, then the lights start coming on.

I'm like we need to focus over here driver window motor on the Lin bus.

And then, yeah, and then you end up finding it.

You know, and it's nothing against other technicians either, especially at the dealer, when you're, when you're, make specific, I noticed, you know you do get used to pattern fails, failures, churning out these warranty jobs, making your paycheck right, you get what I like to call like tunnel vision.

So when you get a vehicle in, you know they're a slew of you codes and they're mad because they, you know, have a engine job or you know set of lifters or something outside.

They want to get slammed in and make a check and and they know they're now they're gonna make two tents, five tents, because they don't want to take the time to write a story, which I get to, but that's the way they're gonna get paid, so they kind of throw their hands up and push it off and it gets forgotten about, and then customers get mad and then we know how that all goes.

So yep, that's the thing.

Is the, the flat rate pay scale or the productivity pay scale, really only works well for parts hanging, because that's in your mind.

Like I know that set of floor ball joints.

I've done it, you know X amount of times, I know exactly how long it's gonna take me, I know what tools I need, I know what it's gonna entail and I can count on that to be part of my check for this week.

But that you code is a complete mystery as to what I'm going to run into and what I'm gonna find and what tools I'm gonna need and how long it's gonna take me.

And so to me, as a person who wants a good paycheck at the end of the week, why would I take the mystery one that could end up paying me less and be harder work than the thing that I know is gonna pay me this much?

So you can't blame so many people, for you know going that route.

It's like you know I just I want to hang parts, or you know I want to move on past this diagnostic, and so that's it's a lot to say.

To really get to the point of and a lot of people have said this too is diagnostic should be paid differently to the technician than the traditional flat rate scale.

In my opinion, like you know, whether it be salary or some other type of incentive bonus, I think that would really really make a difference in guys and girls wanting to figure this stuff out and seek out the education and the tooling in order to figure this stuff out, rather than just hey, it's 1.2

to figure out communication issue.

Good luck no, and you're absolutely right and, and I can get you know, it can play devils advocate and play both sides of it.

I've been fortunate enough the past you know with General Motors, and then you know, and then we're 11, fortunate enough to be on, you know, a very good salary, which does help, and the dealership side of it.

I think there's room to improve.

But some of these dealerships there's a lot of technicians there, right?

So what is the?

The smoking gun, the right answer, when you have all these texts, okay, let's say you put them all in this salary now, but then you get some texts that just aren't passionate about the industry.

I'm like, oh cool, I got this.

You know what am I gonna do?

To skate by, you know, and get this check, and then I'll get a talking to that maybe I'm not producing, and then they'll bump it up a little bit for a week or two.

You know, because service managers, if you got 20 texts, you know somebody's gonna slip through the cracks.

You know it can be abused.

You know I don't not gonna sit here and try to tell people I know the right or wrong answer.

I guess I know what works and what doesn't.

But the big key component to that is being passionate about what you do, you know.

That kind of brings me back to one that my pinnacle, my career.

And you know people have different opinions on ASCs and sometimes I do as well, but just achieving them is another way of showing just how passionate you are about you know, your career.

That was one thing I was really fortunate about being an FSC.

One thing about General Motors they require their field service engineers to achieve ASC world-class status as one of their metrics, which I think is fantastic.

I can't speak for other manufacturers, but it's a good third-party certification.

Say, hey, they're competent in what they're talking about, in case you're ever, you know, questioned or something like that.

You know, like litigation or whatever, if there's something wrong with the car and you know somebody brings their experts and bring your expert.

I know there's some manufacturers that only require the manufacturer required training and not ASCs.

So that's my little soapbox about that.

I do believe there is a place for ASC and I technically achieved world class last year.

Didn't get acknowledged for it because I had one expired in a calendar year that was resorted all last year, but yeah, so it's like I was waiting for my plaque this year and I emailed Julie White to the ASC coordinator.

I'm like what's going on here?

And she's like, well, one of your, you didn't research one in time.

It was like expired for a month or two and then I resorted it and I'm like that's it, we won't go down that rabbit hole.

But yeah, so I hung my head on there.

I was all excited, you know, because it's a lot.

You know, I never really did body work, but I can understand panels and you know paint and you know that you know.

And then just to do all the medium duty to go with it, you know it's.

I don't know if you guys have you.

Are you familiar with the ASC?

World-class Sean?

I was just about to ask you about that, as I don't I've heard of it, but I honestly don't know everything that's required in order to achieve that status.

So I mean, fill me in.

What would someone need to do, as far as the certifications go, to get that?

so to be world-class, you know, as far as it goes in the automotive world, it basically I have a few more extra than I think you actually need, but you basically need to be your a1 through a8s, your normal, you know, automotive master tech, your b2, b3, b4 and b5, which is painting, refinishing, non-structural and analysis and repair structural analysis and then the mechanical and electrical components.

You do need your L1 and your L2 and then you need your t1 through t8, which would be medium duty.

I do also have the L3 in my a9 and I also have x1.

I took a while ago just to get the undercar specialist tag, but it's basically 22 tests, I think, and I don't know the reason why they didn't include diesel or hybrid.

I do not know, I think because maybe some shops never see hybrid so they kind of make it a world-class certification.

We're not everybody's me working on hybrids.

It's not as mainstream as you know internal combustion engines but but basically involves being master status in three categories.

You know, with your L1 and your L2 and advanced level specialties, and make sure they're all current for the whole year.

Don't let one lapse and then yeah, then the following calendar year they'll send you like a plaque you get recognized in automotive.

You know, I actually can pull it up here while we're talking about, because I think it's um, it's actually really cool and approximately only 50 technicians achieve this status a year out of the approximately what?

200 or 250,000 ASC, you know, certified technicians but I actually have it pulled up right now yeah, 22 specialty areas and then only approximately 2,000 technicians since world-class started in 1986, I've achieved it.

So, out of the what, 750, 800,000 technicians, 200 to 250,000 our ASC certified excuse me and then only about 2,000 since this started have actually achieved it, which 86.

I was born in 86, so 37 years and yeah, about 50 well, 50 called 50, just nice even number a year usually achieve it.

Yeah, it's a great experience once I once I actually get it here, they, they say you get a special certificate signed by the president of ASC and Auto Care Association, embroidered patch and a personalized plaque and medallion kit and then a promotion in Auto Care and ASC communications to thousands of industry professionals yeah, the, the ASC stuff.

I've always done that.

I've never done the world-class level.

That actually is something pretty cool to shoot for.

But as soon as I was done tech school, you know, I went out and I got my you know master certification and I felt I felt weird about it at first because I was 19 years old and I had the master certified automotive technician and I didn't feel like I was a master and I definitely wasn't I still am not, but I definitely didn't feel like it at 19.

And but you know I resonate with what you're saying of.

I felt that it would show to my potential employers or my current employer, you know my dedication to the industry and to bettering myself and learning everything I can like.

If nothing else, that's what I felt like.

The certifications in the patch showed people within the industry and and let's go to the customers too right no, 100% got there but and that that's it on that too.

Just because you have the tests obviously doesn't mean you can fix.

You know the car obviously and right, and I didn't get all mine right away.

Honestly, I was deathly scared of them.

I think I finally became a master certified maybe in my late 20s after I had some experience under me and then decided to tackle the L's, l1, l2, l3 and I thought that was awesome.

And then now there's an L4 out and I'm like damn it.

So now I gotta brush up on 8 OS and then maybe try to get that one, if I'm feeling feeling ambitious here one day.

So I'll tell you what.

On the 8 OS test, the L4, if you are efficient at utilizing service information, you can pass that test and you have a general knowledge of 8 OS.

You should definitely have a general knowledge, but I'll.

I'll admit this and I think I've said it on the podcast before I went and I passed the L4 prior to ever doing a real-world 8 OS calibration, and that's not to talk down to the test.

I think the test was extremely well written and and well put together and very good at assessing your knowledge on the subject, but they give you really good composite vehicle along with the test, and a lot of it comes down to you is how well can you read and assess the information that's available to you in order to get to the end goal, and I I feel this, though

, from talking to some people that actually helped make the test is that that's part of the idea, especially with 8 OS.

It's like are you reading the instructions?

Number one are you interpreting the instructions?

Are you utilizing what you're reading when you're doing it?

And I felt that during the test I was like, oh, they're really playing off of this key piece of service information in order to answer this question and they give you the composite vehicle, and so that was.

That was fantastic.

So I would say you should, you know, brush up on your 8 OS stuff and go take it, and you know you'll do just fine.

I think I'm gonna have to and and then just to, as you're talking about 8 OS, I mean you touched on a very, very important topic here in the automotive world nowadays, you know, everybody has what is master.

You know, when I heard it on another podcast and I believe you were talking about it as well too with Fonsla one time.

But thinking about it, look at even in the past 10 years, it just tell vehicles have changed.

Right, we have to be able to, just not, you can't memorize all this stuff.

There's no way.

I mean, I got a bunch of useless knowledge and movie comments up in my head.

I'm care, but that's what you said.

Service information, but you'd be surprised how many technicians are great at take your pick.

You know replacing headgast gets.

You know doing whatever you know base mechanical stuff, but when it comes, as soon as a trouble code stored, they don't know what to do.

Like, I have this trouble code, what do I do?

I'm like well, did you even type it into the database?

What's what's the code telling you?

You know what's the setting criteria, what's the description and operation of the system, and then you pull up a schematic and they just get like deer and headlights and they're lost and like I don't know what to do.

And I'm like you know, when it's hard to do, because a lot of it's not their fault, you know it's a.

It's the fault of you know, maybe lack of training or shops not putting emphasis on aftermarket training.

And I try to hit everyone I can.

I'm always learning.

I don't know everything.

I'll never claim I do, but I know enough to be really dangerous in a lot of areas.

But I didn't get that way overnight.

Countless miles driving with my field service engineering career, numerous podcasts of almost every one of yours and then yeah, but I mean it's you're putting in work, even after work, and you don't realize it.

And being able to read and comprehend and navigate service information, like you just said for that L4, I mean that to be a master, I think that is a very important criteria.

You need to be able to be okay.

I've never worked with this system before, but we have a trouble coding.

I have service information, I have adequate schematics, let's get after it, let's figure this out, and just a lot of people that it doesn't work like that before.

It's out of their comfort zone and then they just kind of get the deer in the headlight look and kind of shut down.

So yeah, that I have 100% been the deer in the headlights a plenty of times.

But when I feel that, for whatever reason, whatever area of the automotive industry that I'm just, I feel, completely inept at, I try to ask myself, okay, well, do I, should I be proficient in this area or this topic or this car whatever?

And if so, what would I need to do in order to achieve that?

And then, you know, weigh my options.

Okay, I'm gonna go to training, I'm gonna learn this thing whatever it is.

And there's, there's a few areas where I'm like, yeah, that doesn't really apply to me, and that's kind of been my attitude on diesels over the year.

I'm just like I don't really want to be a diesel tech.

Carburetors were that way for me.

I'm like, yeah, I can rebuild one, but I don't want to be a carburetor diagnostic guy.

So I never put in the effort.

On certain things I've weighed my options.

But hybrids, for instance, and aida stuff, for instance, and all that, I'm like, okay, this is something that I feel that is going to be very crucial to me going forward.

Okay, where can I go for training?

How can I learn this stuff?

And that's where it is on you a lot of times is a technician and hopefully you're employer is offering some training options for you, but you kind of have to take the initiative in order to improve yourself and stay relevant in this field.

But yeah, there should be a class on comprehending and navigating service information, I think that's a still that's, it's not.

It's weird because it's not a real tangible thing.

It's hard to even explain, like, what that quality or that ability is.

But man, is it so important?

If somebody could create a class to help someone at least get their head wrapped around what it is and how you get there, that would be a really, really cool thing.

So I try and think it about that too.

Get on that, chris, let's make it right.

I think that's a fantastic idea.

I actually thought about that before, but then the squirrel or the ADD in my brain goes another direction.

I'm like I don't know how I could teach this without like here.

Come to my class and just watch me play around Like I'll pick a couple of vehicles and give out random scenarios and then they'll be like boy, I just wasted my time.

You know, not even pay attention and I'll lose on the first five seconds.

Everybody's got their own way to navigate it and I've been fortunate enough.

I've used all that.

Mitchell, identifix or GMSI even had a brief access to Ford, but I haven't looked at Ford service information for a long time.

But normally between Mitchell and Identifix or Direct Hit Solaris, whatever they want to call themselves nowadays, they actually really really, really well with, for the most part, service information.

I mean even the manufacturers get their service information.

You know, not wrong, we'll call it inaccurate sometimes and you know that's kind of where service bulletins and stuff like that come into.

Correct some of that stuff, cause you gotta understand too.

I mean everybody's human right and there's people proof reading these before they're published.

There's people that are actually creating these schematics and you know it's easy, especially like the newer GM vehicles of the global B architecture.

You know there's six or seven different CAN systems in any one of these vehicles and that's a lot of.

You know network topology to map out, you know, so it could be easy to get a circuit or you know where, on the wrong page or going to the wrong pin.

I mean, that's one big thing I want to stress on service information how to technicians, you know, get familiar with connector end views and don't stick a micro 60 pin fit adapter in a micro 50 hole and cause a problem.

I may have ran into that a few times, so, but that's just you know and I can't believe it.

You know, especially in our area.

Sean, you know some of the issues we're probably going to see, like we've already seen with the smaller these pins get.

It's very important for you know, pin tension and cleanliness, you know, and making sure fender liners and panels are on vehicles and these connectors are sealed, cause it won't take much to get some micro fretting on these.

You know small terminals and cause a lot of issues and then sometimes unplugging it and plugging it back in.

You've just the problem went away and then you don't know if you fixed it or not.

Yeah, that's the worst.

You are just trying to test something and then you fix the problem, but you're not sure how you fix the problem.

That is not a fun situation to be in.

You're like, well, it's fixed, but I don't know what caused it.

Yeah, going back to the service info thing, I think the search feature has really, really come a long way in the last couple of decades and I know that's a long period of time.

But I'm thinking back to when I first started and you know what was available for service information and it might be a good thing to learn how to navigate and find everything within service info.

But there's so much and there's so many vehicles, that little search bar, whether it be all data or Identifix or whatever you're using that is so, so helpful to you know really streamline things and get to where you want to be within the information, and some, I think, do it better than others.

But where I kind of see this going in the next decade is I don't know if you've played around all with any of the AI stuff, the language models that have been out, like chat, gpt.

I've been doing a lot with that and I actually just re-listed you.

I have a feeling Fonz will talk about that and I think it was on his podcast in maybe January, february.

But I just recently listened to that one again and you know, this stuff's kind of scary if you think about it that way.

But I mean, yeah, oh, it is, you know, I mean I feel as though these companies that have the service information if they're not already they're going to start integrating this within their systems, within their platforms, where you'll have basically a type of chat bot that has access to all of the service information, all of their archives, and

so that you're able to ask it questions and have it generate things for you, not even just looking up, like you could look up that's a search bar but say, hey, this is the code I have, these are the symptoms that I have.

Can you generate a test plan for me?

And just with the stuff that I've played around with with, like chat GPT, which doesn't have access to, you know, identifix or factory service information, it's pretty impressive what it can do if you ask it the right questions.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all again if that starts being integrated within the service information and that's gonna be a big, big game changer.

I don't even really know what it would look like and how it's gonna affect what we do, but I'm really curious to see how the next decade looks for that sort of thing.

Yeah, that's definitely.

It's just like all technology.

You know it'd be great if it worked, but in our situation, kind of hope, that doesn't work.

I'm like you put all this work into it again you know what I mean to get kind of fluent in what you do.

And then it's like all right, you know we don't need you anymore to make money.

You know we're just gonna type it into this and then we can hire somebody else that can just carry out the repair.

And I'm like, oh great, I did all these years of training for nothing.

Now I'm just sitting here and talking about the old days sipping coffee on the porch, you know.

But yeah, that is crazy.

You know, if you think about it, though, there is kind of some mild versions of AI, as in cars, you know, we got the bright drop and we got the self-driving vehicles, the autonomous ones being tried out in certain areas, and then supercruise on a lot of the GM products.

I mean that's a really cool and crazy feature, but a lot of that too, some of these customers aren't getting educated on them right from the dealer.

You know.

It's a quick little story on supercruise.

I went out on a call once.

I was looking at a supercruise and the customer's like every time I go this way on the interstate it will say you know, cruise disabled.

You know, grab the wheel and then eventually it'll make you start braking and they're like something's wrong with it.

Never done this before.

You know.

They're adamant, you know, and the dealership's frustrated with it.

They took it down the interstate right and like never does it for us, I don't know customers this or that or whatever.

And if you're familiar with Fargo, i-29 runs north and south through the city and then we have I-94 that runs, you know, east and west through the city.

That you know goes down to Minneapolis and so on and so forth.

Sure, so I get there.

I talk to the service manager, like, all right, all right, you know brand new vehicle.

You know they know the owner, you know it's one of them high profile things.

So you got to bend over backwards and you know, take care of them.

So I'm like, well, let's start from square one.

All right, what's going on?

He's like, well, we drive it.

We can't get it to do.

Okay, we don't know what's going on.

There's no trouble codes, nothing like this.

And I'm like, okay, so go for a ride.

You know, I'm like I have the technician drive.

I'm like I want you to drive.

You know, and let me, you know, had my laptop plugged in just monitoring weird inputs or weird, you know, maybe disabling criteria if anything popped up randomly.

So we're driving, driving.

And I'm like, well, which way do you take?

He's like, well, he's going north.

I'm like, all right, let's go north.

You know there's a exit five miles north of town.

We'll turn around and come back and try it.

And I'm like, so, this is where you took it for every test drive.

He's like, yeah, we took it west too.

And I'm like, hey, just humor me here.

Let's go south.

So we go south out of Fargo and we get by 32nd Avenue, 52nd Avenue, you know, and then it kind of you know the city's over and keeps going.

We get up to safe speeds, engage supercruise.

So he's, you know, you got to keep your eye on your head for it.

There's like infrared too that can tell if your, your face, isn't watching the road and it'll disable or remind you too.

So I'm like, well, let's make sure we're not going to give it any other disabled reasons and just drive like you're the customer, whatever.

We're approaching construction and I'm like, don't do anything, leave it, go for now.

And we're getting into construction and you know the cones are starting and it's slowing down.

It recognizes construction, going construction zone, and about a half mile or a mile ahead they have us.

There's like a merge set up to where you go in the northbound lane, you know going south, you know, cause they're working on the southbound lane.

And then, right then, the red lights came on.

It said stop, supercruise, disabled, you know, grab the wheel.

Immediately it braked and kind of like, violently, you know, kind of wanted you to turn, and I'm like, all right, well, did it there.

That's completely normal.

Um, it recognizes a construction zone, right, and so it's like hey, we don't know what's going on, because these systems operate off LiDAR and updating in Google Maps.

So anytime there's construction on some of these, the Google Maps may not be updated for another.

You know, six months or a year till the project is complete, right.

So essentially, at that time, your super cruise is not going to work in that section of road, you know, and it and that's an education deal that, you know, gets lost in translation when people buy their new vehicles.

They're just so quick to sign on the dotted line and drive their fancy new vehicle that can press a button and drive them anywhere and they don't have to touch the wheel.

Well, you know, there's geological factors that play into it.

You know, not everything's perfect.

And updating in real time they try to do as quick as they can, but until that Google Maps or LiDAR vehicle drives down the road and it's finished state and maps it out, it's not going to be updated till the next map update, you know, and that's for safety reasons, otherwise your vehicle would just drive you off the road, you know.

If something happened, you know.

So it's education too, with these newer vehicles I think is lacking.

You know, as far it could be better.

We'll put it that way, you know, in the sales department.

But I don't know, there's never going to be 100% way to fix that, but just little stuff.

I observed, you know, and I thought that was interesting.

I'm like no, it's working as designed.

You know, ask the customer if they'd rather be sitting in a ditch, you know.

But.

I thought that was interesting.

You know, you would never duplicate it if you went west or north.

There was no construction going on then.

But for the heck of it, I'm like, well, let's try going south.

You know, because they tried test driving it north.

I'm like where's the customer taking it?

Well, they go down to Hankinson quite a bit you know there's a scene on a restaurant down there, I'm like, well, let's try test driving it south then.

And then, sure as hell, we find that, you know, in the construction zone.

It was aware of it, but it didn't know which way the road was essentially going to go.

So then eventually it's like, hey, grab the wheel now, we're shutting it down.

And then, long story short, the supercruise won't work again until you power cycle a vehicle because it's in that safety mode.

But so that was kind of neat.

See, that's the thing with these systems.

You know, I think back to again starting out early in the industry for me, and I mean people don't know how to use the basic features on their car Like we'd have, you know, older people come in and they wouldn't press the AC button and their AC doesn't work right and like just really, really, really simple stuff.

They just don't know the basic features of their car.

And now, all of a sudden, we've integrated these systems like that are, you know, damn near driving the car themselves.

And, yes, the customer needs some education.

And for second third owners of these vehicles, as time progresses, that's going to be, that's going to be a really interesting thing when you know you've never driven a car with any type of ADAS system and then you know, 10 years down the road, you get into a 2018 for the first time and you have absolutely no clue how any of this stuff works.

Yeah, there's almost going to have to be like a different section of drivers education for these things for people.

And yeah to your point about really getting the customer's perspective and information on their problem too.

You know, I just had Brittany on recently and she was bringing up that exact same thing as like how exactly is that car being driven by the customer?

In order to duplicate this problem?

Well, maybe you should go, do that same thing and or even just bring them with you Like here show me what you're doing and I've done that before when I couldn't duplicate something, and more than once it's been this it's been the customer drives the vehicle like a complete maniac.

That's how they get it to make a noise or do what it's doing, and me as technician who's trying to be respectful of your car, is driving it very politely and non aggressively and you're out there just all the way to the floor taking corners like oh, here that clunk as we're doing 30 around a corner.

Yeah, your car left the ground and landed again.

Yeah, it maybe drive the speed limit.

Everybody's driving style is just so different.

So I mean, sometime, you know, and then just the stories from the customer to the service advisor, to the technician a lot of stuff gets lost in translation.

So a lot of times there's no way around it.

You just got to say, hey, I need to talk to Mr Customer or Mrs Customer, what's going on here?

Even go for a ride with them.

You know everybody lives in a different neighborhood, different set of driving conditions.

You know, and that's one thing too, that's kind of you know, with all this ADOS, right, and all these different modules we're incorporating into vehicles Some of them people I'm sure you've seen this a lot oh, it doesn't work, I'm not going to fix it, it costs too much money.

Well, some of these you might not you might be forced to fix, with all the different communication networks that some of these modules are incorporated into and how the vehicle operates, by talking to all of them.

Like you know, like a low speed GM land issue, you know, like a rear bumper harness that gets melted on the exhaust for the, you know, side detection modules that'll bring the low speed down and you won't even be able to power up or start the vehicle properly and it's you're kind of forced to you know on that you might be able to get away with unplugging it, but then you're, you know, you're opening up another can of worms, so even connectors exposed and yeah, just so.

Yeah, I don't.

I'm kind of curious to see how the next 10 years are going to go with some of these vehicles that have it now and the fact that you really can't, certain systems you're not going to be able to disable.

Are we just going to crush them because people can't afford to fix them, or what are we going to do with them?

But it'll be kind of curious to see.

But yeah, yeah.

That is, you know not only the functionality but the cost of maintaining these systems.

And you know, of course it's like everything else Eventually the costs of things comes down.

But the way I think about it is just the availability of the components, and you know how long are they going to make you know, all of these different radar units and cameras and stuff like that For vehicles to be available, or how many of them are going to become discontinued, right?

And you can't get a Subaru iSight module 15 years from now.

It doesn't exist, and so they're all scrambling for the used ones.

And then you know, yeah, how many vehicles become really expensive to repair on drivable because of the cost of maintaining these systems.

And maybe that won't be an issue.

You know, right, if there's a need, there's probably going to be a solution in today's world.

But that's just it.

Now to what we recently had a vehicle in the shop.

It was 2012 Ford Taurus, with just the 3.5

, the natural aspirated one.

You know it had the shorted coil, you know misfire, and it took a driver out in the PCM and I'm like, well, yeah, that definitely smells like somebody let the smoke out of it.

So we got to replace that right, excuse me, well, ford, it's not available anymore.

So we tried to go an aftermarket route and we got a remand one.

You know, it was kind of spendy too and I won't name any remand companies, but it we got it in there, I programmed it.

We use FDJS and Drewtech and it works really well.

And then I did the whole Pats function.

I'm like, great, awesome, we got lucky with a remand.

You know, it's starting, it's operating fine.

Second key cycle check engine light comes on.

Mike, what the heck.

Now I was like a P0453 fuel tank, pressure low, input or signal low, and I'm like, well, that wasn't in there before.

And I'm like, well, maybe it didn't run a monitor because the misfire was.

So you know, just kind of thinking out of the box, and I'm like, all right, well, let's clear it.

Maybe it was a, you know, and then came right back and this time I watched it on the key cycles and I'm like, well, what the heck you know.

So I'm like I was just kind of brainstorming, I'm like it wasn't here before but I want to give some of these you know remands and after a little more faith, because sometimes you got to use them.

So I'm like, well, I'm not just going to condemn this part right away, I'm going to, I'm going to go, you know, spend more time than I should, but actually prove something to myself.

And if you remove the rear seat on the passenger side, you can actually get at the access cover and the fuel tank pressure sensors.

Actually, in a it's in a you know, the corrugated plastic tube like evap lines are on this one, right?

So I'm like, well, I'm going to unplug it and like, look at it, see if my code changes.

Maybe maybe the sensor is shorted code never changed, it stuck with that one.

And I'm like, well, that's really weird.

And at that point I should have just stopped and said, hey, this one's bad.

But I went and swap pins around.

I'm like, maybe when they assembled this PCM they put the lower reference in the signal spot and whatever I was going down a rabbit hole.

But I'm like I'm right here, it's not going to be that hard for me to take two pins out, swap around and try it again.

Didn't change.

And I'm like there's something up with this remand.

We we got to find a different one, well, and there wasn't really a viable remand option again.

So we called around to one of our trusted salvage yards in town and they gave us a number for another salvage yard.

I forgot where it was in the country, but they said yeah, we have one, we'll ship it to you 80 bucks plus freight.

I'm like all right, it's a Ford.

One Part numbers matched.

Ford is pretty forgiving as long as you have the right part number.

Program it Longest story short everything's fine.

My four or five, three didn't come back and I'm like I wasted a half hour 45 minutes screwing around, but I wanted to prove it to myself, you know.

But I that's one thing I really would like to get into, you know, down to like board level stuff someday when time allows but with young kids and stuff I don't have a lot of free time.

But I think that would be kind of neat, to neat to get into listening to you and Tommy on podcasts sometimes.

Yeah, it's so neat to get into that.

It's so interesting and enveloping.

The problem that I have with it is exactly that is like each individual module can become its own monster and you're learning something completely new.

You know and try to fix a certain issue with a certain module and the time is where it's been a limiting factor for me.

It's like I actually have I have a cabinet full of modules at home right now, all with things.

I know what's wrong with them and that I would love to figure out how to fix, but I don't know when I'll get to it.

Right, I'm going to have to take like a sabbatical or something in order to sort through those things and figure it out.

So take vacation and the hobby down the road.

Yeah, I don't.

I don't think my girlfriend would like that too much.

So I'm taking vacation to learn a new trade here, dear no, that's yeah, and that's just it too.

I mean it.

Yeah, I'd really love to.

But yeah, like you said, there's never enough hours in the day and stuff for stuff like that.

I mean, you know, then you start sacrificing your, you know your work, home, life balance, stuff and yeah, I guess you got to prioritize.

But someday I told myself I'm really just going to attempt it.

But I don't know, I do have the old PCM from this forward, but it's it's kind of cooked, so I'm assuming the board might be burnt too.

But I know I'd.

I guess I'd have to talk to somebody that does it more to see maybe if there's any resurrecting it at all or not.

Yeah, it all depends on you know what component failed and did it cause damage to other components on the board.

And yeah, when you crack them open and you get that smell, you're like okay, something, something happened right here We've got some damage and usually in that case you have something visual of a component that's shorted out, and again all depends on how catastrophic the damage was right, was it just a resistor or a driver that burned out, or did a section of the board burn up?

And then that determines whether you can fix it or not.

And then also your your skills with soldering and dealing with the small components and stuff like that.

It's a whole nother skill set, it's a whole nother world, I think, almost a whole nother profession that we're just sort of dabbling in on our side, and some guys are really really good at it and I give all the credit in the world to those people because I feel like I just kind of dabble in that side and you know it definitely helps.

It's.

It's, you know, made me some money, it's gotten me out of some pinches, for sure, and it's interesting.

I actually I could probably sit around most days and just do module work and I would be pretty happy, right, right, it's very interesting.

You know.

You know kind of elaborating on.

You know happy work for for us nowadays.

You know I could, honestly I'll still do it it's gravy money for the shop, whatever.

But I honestly I really hate doing ball joints and brakes.

You know, when it comes in, I'm like people like, oh, I'd do that all day and I'm like, here, have it, I don't want it, Let me see what's going on with that check engine.

Like multiple indicators on the dash.

Send that one my way, please.

You know it's it, but it's just what you prefer.

On, you know, people in their comfort zones and and I used to be like that too I'm like, no, give me the struts, give me the ball joints, give me the brakes.

The older I get, I could carry less if I ever did another break job again.

Honestly, you know I'd like to focus my ambitions and talent elsewhere.

You know what is your role within the shop that you're at right now?

I would have to call it head, technician, estimate, builder, troubleshoot.

You know, maybe just the jack of everything kind of.

It's not really a technician is my title, but the owner trusts me to actually talk to his customers.

You know I build a lot of my own repair orders and get a lot of my own parts coming in.

I'm still on average, you know, 120%.

You know, on an eight hour day, efficient.

You know there's some days you just kill it, you knock it out of the park.

You know 16 hours, whatever.

There's some days you get six.

You know what average is out.

Still, you know I still can produce 10, 12 hours on average and an eight hour work date, which is what I'm kind of proud of, because you can start feeling your body.

You know, kind of creep up on you, especially with a couple of year break on the FSE side, where you see problems and you see them till they're fixed, but you're not the one tearing it apart.

You know you kind of get what I'm saying and actually throw my body back into it again.

I'm not going to lie the first month or so I'm like oh shit, I forgot I had that spot in my body and yeah it.

You know it's like oh, beer back again.

We got you sucked back in the automotive world.

It's yeah, once you're in, you're in, but I know I enjoy it.

Yeah, tell me about it.

But I had a Today I was doing one, just a normal side detection job and that was one kind of thing I'd like to Touch on to.

You know, for listeners, you know, you know if, if you ever, you know, get it, you're struggling right to your, I Don't know where to go with this.

You know communication, issue this or that, and I'm sure a lot of people know that.

We know it really well with the area we live in.

But look at the high traffic areas, you know.

Look at bumpers, look at where harnesses are underneath the vehicle, you know it, people don't realize how much damage, you know, you're not even from hitting stuff, but just from our season's changing road debris.

I Can't count how many low-speed issues on GM's that I've fixed by raising the vehicle on the hoist.

Looking at the rear bumper, you know.

Or Kick panels because somebody's built something, you know, I mean, and it's stuff that we probably all know and our listeners know to Right now.

But it's just something.

Whenever you get overwhelmed, that you stop, you know, take a step back, take a deep breath and, you know, try to get out of that.

Tunnel vision mode Is what I like to call it.

That you're in and you know, and just walk away and yeah, back at a look at it fresh, you know.

Yeah, the, the visual inspection it's.

It's really obvious, like, obviously you should look at the component that's failed or failing, or reporting a code that's failed, but we don't always think about it first thing or, you know, at the right time.

But man, yeah, how many problems have you solved just by looking at the damn thing?

You're like, oh okay, I had one today on a Chevy Camaro with a parking brake module that wasn't communicating and Like, before I did anything, I just like I'm gonna just look underneath this thing and look at it and there's a big green crusty on the power wire on the corner of the connector going to the module, like, okay, I'm done, you know right, and that visual inspection not always right.

If it was just that, it would be really easy.

But there's so much at the time.

Just put some eyes on it and you'll find out what's going on.

That's, that's Can't be, can't be overstated enough.

I know reason.

I say that it's because sometimes I don't do that.

I'm like I'm tunnel visioning, right, and I'm going down the wrong path around researching like TSB's and I'm looking at diagrams, which is all good stuff.

But Just take the time and look at it.

You might find what you're right looking for and that, coming back to you know I'm taking a step back and being aware, you know I have another little Study I can share.

There was a new pickup to Like a 2022 GMC right, and there's like no miles on it.

It probably shouldn't have left the dealer, you know, because the customer knew there's a light on, but they, you know New, shiny vehicle, they wanted to drive it Okay.

But long story short, there's a service message on the dash.

You know, service suspension system right and Global B vehicle I don't have.

I believe there's about six different can networks on this particular vehicle, but there's no communication with the suspension module and I think that was like an RPO, like ZL one Doesn't really matter what the RPO is, but I had pulled up the right can, schematic right, and so it's can three, I believe, if I remember right, and all the modules you know like, as you like to say, are like Daisy, chained right and, and so I had no communication with the suspension module.

A module's already been tried rate.

I physically Load tested the power and ground to this.

It lit up my 194 test site.

Just fine, I'm like starting to spin my wheels right.

I got a 31, 57.

I'm like.

Well, let's see if there's something weird and we need a bigger load.

Lit up the light, nice and bright.

At the time I was just using, you know, one channel scope because I didn't want to pull out the dealer's Pico at the time I had Second or third trip there multiple modules been thrown at it, right, and I'm just like God, what that?

Why can't I even talk to this damn thing?

And you know, when you scope with a one channel, perfect, can activity I, you couldn't have asked for a better crystal clear waveform, right.

So I'm like, all right, let's take a step back here.

And I called one of my colleagues at the time.

I'm like, oh, you know, walk me through this.

Right, I had tunnel vision.

I'm like I have activity on the data line, right, powers and grounds, multiple modules are tried.

I even took a module out of a note.

It was a rare condition where there's another vehicle with the same RPO.

Excuse me, swapped it from that pickup to the one I was working on Wouldn't communicate in the one I was working on but it would communicate in the other one and I had some other calls out.

You know, I thought, god, is it possible?

There's some weird software glitch at this vehicle was uploaded with software that Wasn't for this vehicle.

You know, just kind of going down a rabbit hole that I'll check.

Fine, there's no reason why they shouldn't communicate and I'm like, all right, looked at the schematic, this suspension module happened to be at the end of, you know, with the tail end of the, the network.

This can three, right, and I'm like, oh yeah, it's not making sense, right, I have activity, you know two volts, because I'm using a one channel scope at the time and I'm like it's time to bust the Pico out, right?

So I pull up the schematic in.

In and before the suspension control module, it goes through the video processing control module which is under the rear seat, and I'm like I'm not ripping that seat out.

The back seats and these vehicles are pain in the butt.

Take two hours there.

I'll be standing here waiting for the technician to take it out.

I'm like I don't want to do that, that.

So look at the schematic.

Right after that there's a connector We'll call it X204, but for whatever reason, it goes from the passenger rear seat to the bolt connector and the passenger front fender, well, and then, after that connector, it goes way back to the suspension controller above the spare tire and I'm like that just seems Wrong, like whatever.

Okay, but I have an easy connector to access right.

So I looked at the schematic.

I found can high and can low.

I Backprobed, each of them separate channels, had two channels running and then you know a good ground and Fired the vehicle up.

My god, didn't you know?

That's perfect.

Can communication, right?

I'm like looking, looking.

I'm like you know, blue going up, red going down, right and then Working with my colleague we had the aha moment.

I'm like he's like, well, what channel do you have a on and what channel do you have beyond?

And I told him I'm like, yeah, and it looks fine.

He's like, rewind a little bit.

What did you just say?

And I'm like, oh shit, can high that I thought I was plugged into at that connector was reading Canton low and vice versa.

Can low was reading can high.

And I'm like a light bulb came on at the video processing module Can high and can low on that can three network are going into the module correctly, but the pins coming out were flip-flop, so it was trying to send a can high down a can low signal to the suspension module.

That's why it was just completely dead and not being able to talk.

Long story short, flipping two pins around, um, everything came back to life vehicles, fine, down the road.

And I'm like that was like an aha moment with the scope for me.

And you know a lot of shop owners, yeah, that I talked to her, you know.

They're like, oh, scope, you know you don't need that fancy.

Do they make a joke about it?

And I'm like, listen, the newer, you know, if you plan on staying in business for a while, these new vehicles coming down the pipe, we're gonna need it more and more.

And that one specifically, like I was getting my butt kicked on it and it's all because I had tunnel vision.

I wasn't going through the processes right at the time.

And, long story short, shit out of two-channel scope anytime him scoping can.

Now, if I have no communication, I'm like wait a minute, it's somehow a wire get flip-flopped here, you know.

And oh, I had a laugh at myself.

I mean, that's, that's something you really got to pay attention to, to, like you really got to be focused when you're doing those tests to know that, like, okay, I'm on can high, it should be going up, and that sounds simple enough.

But man, when you're just in this and you're making all your checks, you're looking here Okay, yep, that looks good.

Yep, that looks good.

Okay, I'm moving on.

I'm sure that's an easy one to miss.

Um was so.

The waveform wasn't distorted in any fashion.

And I'm just I'm trying to think through this in my head, like if the module was still trying to produce a Transmission, right, they'd be on the wrong side of the network and so you'd think it'd be trying to pull down high and pull up low.

You didn't see any of that on there huh, it was the most perfect can sing I could ever see.

The only thing I didn't notice was okay.

Well, you know, I'm sure we've all done it right.

You have your school hooked up.

I'm like what's not wrong there?

You know, you're just looking at your square waveforms, right it?

It was.

Couldn't a picture to better one?

There was no noise, nothing, it was just perfect.

But it was just in the wrong spot and for whatever reason.

Well, I know the reason now is it doesn't like talking.

You know it's like yeah, it doesn't like going in and out.

You know it's like hi, doesn't like going down the low channel.

And that was that was a head scratcher.

I had some people involved and I'm just like, well, what am I missing here?

And and then that just, you know slowing down sometimes, but this dealer is only an hour or an half away, so I mean, it wasn't too bad to to get to once in a while, but it's still frustrating because you try to gather all the data you can there.

You know the technician was kind of, yeah, frustrated, didn't want to put more time into it because you're not getting paid, and you know the whole story.

But I just thought that was a unique one and it yeah, do you think that was a man-made problem?

Possibly.

I mean, you know, aftermarket parts, oe parts how else would they be flipped?

I think you know harness manufacturer, most likely you know, but that's something too I like to.

I like to say, just because you have a new part, you know what new stands for never, ever worked right.

So you know it's a new part, right, but if it's put together on a line, just like anything, but I believe the, the can high and low wires were Black and white or whatever at this module, say right, and in the orientation and the back of the connector, if you can kind of visualize, it should have been Black, white, black, white, and before we repaired it it was black, white, white, black, so you could physically see it.

The into the video processing module was correct.

So Basically, that might be why there was no weird Spike or bringing down it, because the terminating resistors were still doing what they were supposed to, and the video processing module, but and that was a thing I couldn't communicate with the suspension module and the ABS, I believe, and the video processing module, the only two codes that store, or the only two modules Excuse me that stored the code that they couldn't talk to, that suspension module.

So basically the whole.

Sure, the continuity of the network was perfect and all the other modules were tied in perfect, but it was just flip-flop coming out of the VPM and that caused it to just didn't even recognize it.

Yeah, the resistor doesn't have a polarity Right and so that won't change anything, but the transceiver in the target module suspension module definitely does, and I've experienced this myself trying to communicate with a module on the bench and I get the can lines backwards, and you'll find out very quickly.

That doesn't work that way, right, and I should scope it the next time I do it wrong, just to see what it looks like Like.

Does it look perfectly normal or is the module still trying to produce some sort of message down there?

That's an interesting thing, which I don't think I've ever seen that before.

But that's cool, I like that.

Cause, yeah, the resistance checks, cause you know the technician was doing all that too and that's another thing to touch base on.

I'm sure quite a few people know by now.

But you know you can't.

You know any vehicle with the serial data gateway module, testing resistance and scoping at the data link connectors kind of a thing of the past you got to find the least intrusive spot or connector you know inline and try to piggyback off that.

Yeah, I don't know Cause there was I think there was about seven modules total on this CAN3 network, maybe, maybe eight, and then the suspension controller happened to be at the tail end.

So I don't know if there was enough other modules.

But I, I shit you not.

That's the square wave.

Look like a dream.

Can signal like too good to be true.

Just beard image, flip flopped, that's a good thing.

One of the things I found interesting about the CAN networks is when you have a module that's offline, it's not communicating for whatever reason, who is upset about it and who isn't on the rest of the network.

And I've been surprised and interested on that a lot of the time, where I'll have what I would consider in my mind a pretty critical module that feeds information to a number of other modules on there, like an ABS module or transmission control module, something like that, and then there's only maybe like one or two modules that code for it.

Now, maybe if you went out and drove the vehicle more okay, but it's just like.

Sometimes I'm like, wow, there's only one module upset about this other module not being on the network at all, it's not communicating at all, and I've only got one other module that sets a code.

You would think that everybody on the bus would be upset about an ABS module or transmission module off there, and it's not always the case.

Some cars it is, but it's not always the case.

I found that pretty interesting.

Yeah, that's really crazy too.

Some of the stuff just stuff way over my head as far as the programming and software and hardware setups of some of these modules.

Yeah, some modules could care less if one's talking to it or not, and some of them actually kind of surprised me, Like okay, why do you care about this one?

But the ABS control or not?

Yeah, and it's just like I don't understand why.

But in the world of infotainment, ADOS and everything else, if you kind of step back and look at it, you can kind of justify a reason, I guess.

But still, sometimes it has me scratching my head.

Gladly I just need to worry about what's actually not communicating, eventually, find it and then get the customer fixed up and on the way and then let somebody else worry about that.

Yeah, ford, if you've ever looked into their service information, under the description operation of the network has a complete list and I guess I don't know how 100% accurate it is, but it seems like a very complete list per vehicle of the broadcasting module, the message and the receiving module for modules

that exist on a CAN bus and I've never seen anything else like that in any other like factory.

Well, this is I'm using aftermarket service information, but I've never seen any other manufacturer do something like that and it's only really helped me solve a problem a handful of times.

But, man, that's a nice resource to have to just say like oh okay, the front interface display module outputs the message of view pressing a button to X modules.

Those are the receiving modules.

So, in case you wanted to know, that info is there and I would say for the majority of manufacturers they ain't giving you that info.

That's secret.

Right, no one, you're absolutely right.

Some of it's proprietary just to the brand and but every manufacturer has their quirks too, you know they're, and that's just kind of what's unique about everything.

But eventually it all trickles out after it's been out for a while or somebody has a way to find it.

You know it's so.

We all know somebody who knows somebody, who knows somebody which does help.

But yeah, network, I don't know, I love that's probably my favorite.

Honestly, like probably most of us, I love network issues, you know, and I used to be deathly scared of them, like I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

I'm gonna go do that break job or that head gasket on the 35 or 39 in the Impala's and then just kind of, yeah, just walk away from it.

But I kind of wish I would have started earlier.

But you know, hindsight's, 2020, I'm kind of glad I'm not scared of it now, obviously for the past many years.

But yeah, it's unique and it's I don't know I'm not gonna call it simple, because there's been a lot of years and different training to get to, you know, like where you are, where I'm at, to where anybody's at in their diagnostic process, but to look on some people's eyes, when you're like, holy crap, there are codes everywhere and you've had it for an hour and it's fixed, and you use one heat shrink butt connector and I'm like, yep, you know, and it's like

taking a step back.

I'm like I'm in like the, you know you look like a hero to them, you know, and they're like how'd you do it?

What the hell?

They just scan a code and then they see a bunch of them and then, yeah, like we touched on before, they get kind of scared and yeah, I don't know, get tunnel vision and just don't try.

You know, and that's hard to teach how to?

You know, pick one out of a basket.

One thing I can share is if you run into a slew of U codes on like a, you know, like a global B system and I'm just using that as an example because I'm most familiar with those on the GM you know when you have six or seven different CAN networks, you know sometimes there'll be a telltale.

When you're doing a complete code scan like a U, like a U0073 CAN bus, one off, or you know 0074 or 75, they'll usually be a little descriptor.

You know that 00 and 70, whatever code, to kind of get you on the right network.

That's causing the problems because some of these modules have three different networks going through them, you know.

But if you can figure out what network out of the six CAN networks you're dealing with, you know that really clears the field a lot for you.

Right, you know you start getting into that funnel.

We like to talk about focusing in one area and then, once I get in that funnel, I'm like all right, it's CAN three.

What modules are on that CAN three?

Well, you have a side detection module.

You know you have this.

You have that.

You have ABS module, fuel pump.

You know I'm just throwing modules out there.

Then that's where the visual inspection comes in.

I'm gonna go to these under vehicle modules.

First, look at the connectors, look how much gravel built up around them, look how big they've grown, with green crusties coming out of them.

You know, and kind of eliminate that.

First you know the visual inspections, you know, and then from there it's like, okay, you know, that's checking out.

Good, you know, then you can start seeing.

You know your powers, your grounds, your resistance checks, you know, and stuff like that that we've talked about a lot.

But it's about picking your, you know your hill to stand on and that's kind of what I use.

I look for those as a descriptor.

Usually it'll pop up and you at least know what network to kind of point towards.

You know, front camera modules are a big one.

The pin fits are so small in there and then camera modules get so warm.

You know, over time You'd be surprised at things that get screwed up.

When you know a camera module takes down the bus it's on, you know the weird things it'll do sometimes.

But they have micro 50 pins on the front camera modules so you can about imagine the stress those and the heat those pins take.

So yeah, yeah, no kidding, and it's not like you can just go in and tighten up one of those, those pin fitments on something like that.

No, they're shot once they're shot.

Yeah, that's the tough part, right?

Yeah, I've been seeing a lot of that lately with the smaller pins is, yeah, once that connector has a little bit of damage or corrosion or expansion, it's like, yeah, let's replace the whole thing.

You don't have a bunch of an option at that point.

Yeah, there really isn't.

Sometimes you can get terminated leads but it's so hard to I wouldn't even trust myself, I don't think, on a micro 50 to actually properly crimp it.

You know male or female and you know, and you know, guarantee the circuit integrity, because it's some of those ones I don't even think they'll even give you the option.

You know it's gotta be machine.

You know, or whatever machine they use and they're making the harnesses, it's gotta be accurate and precise.

But yeah, I mean that's the world we live in now.

I mean the pin fits are getting smaller and that's another big thing too.

You know some technicians you can always tell when.

You know I get an APP sensor or you know something comes in there.

You pull a connector out and it's just slimy.

It's like somebody tried to jam a bunch of dielectric grease in there and trying to educate.

You know some technicians that live by that that you know it doesn't.

Dielectric grease doesn't promote conductivity.

You know small amounts can you know kind of help clean your connections and make a connection better, but you're essentially trying to hydrolock the connector.

If you had a pin fitment issue it's gonna be worse now after you jam that connector in there, and you know and then trying to just you know, tell people that.

But you know they don't know.

You know, it's like the old saying goes if a little does a lot, imagine what a lot will do.

So if apply a light dielectric grease, they're like well, the spoonful's gotta be better, right, until we get it smashing out of that connector.

And then I'm like you just created another problem.

But, yeah, you know that's a topic for another day, but it's just all the stuff.

You know a guy sees like that, but you know, and that's, you know, harness, harness, routings and stuff like that, just stuff that gets overlooked.

I mean, I even got burnt by one on a on a on a Florida.

You know now that I brought up APP.

You know, like most accelerator pedals there's two APPs built in to kind of monitor each other.

You know safety feature that most manufacturers use so your vehicle doesn't take off on you.

But had this weird Ford in, it was like a 15 or 16, I think they had a five liter in it and it kept I don't know the code descriptor off the top of my head, but it kept setting an APP too low and I'm like, all right, and yes, you know, and first it was intermittent and we had put a accelerator pedal in it.

After we checked at the time we had our reference.

You know, low reference was good to ground, the signal error wasn't shorted to ground or nothing.

I'm like, well, you know, let's try a pedal, try to pedal.

Thing was gone for two, three weeks.

Came back, same code.

I'm like, what the hell?

Well, when it sets it goes into a default mode, you know like a limp home mode where the accelerator pedal barely works.

And then if you look on scan data it shows APP two at like 0.02

volts and I'm like that's weird.

I try clearing it out.

The voltage comes back to, you know, at rest I think APP two, and I'm probably wrong.

But you know one's at 1.1

and one's at like 3.8

, right, and then the other one goes the other way and the other one goes up.

You know, as you press the pedal and then, as I did that, it glitched out code set again.

I'm like what the hell?

Circuit integrity and everything.

At the time, how I was testing was testing.

Good, I took my potentiometer from my ES wave kit, three pins, right, I'm like, well, I can physically put three pins in on APP two circuit and I'm gonna turn the dial and watch the voltage change.

After I cleared the code, obviously that you know would change.

And I'm like, well, this is really weird.

It shows me that potentially the circuit should be good.

Right, you know, but do I have another defective part?

Okay, try one more.

Yeah, same damn thing.

And I'm like all right, I've had enough of this.

So I find the connector at the PCM, unplug it, find the correct pins that go to APP two and physically load test every circuit.

And I'm getting frustrated, right Cause the bulb is like lighting bright, and I'm like what is going on here?

And then I had a one of my other coworkers.

I'm like, get up here and help me follow this harness and, just you know, manipulate it, move it wherever you know.

And we finally got the light to go out and I'm like, I'm like check that, jump really, to make sure it didn't fall off.

No, it didn't fall off.

Move that harness back and then, sure, the light came on.

I'm like, oh, I think we're onto something.

And it goes right below the cooling fan or the radiator, sits into the front core support.

We pull it back, peeled back.

The sheath wasn't even all the way broken that corrugated tubing, but we opened it up.

Insures, hell, the signal wire and like the low reference are like rubbed and grounded together.

There was green spots and I'm like how the hell does that happen?

Oh, how the hell does my load testing work most of the time?

And how the hell with my potentiometer did it still see?

You know, make the signal adjust on there.

And I'm just like you know, even if you do everything right and you're testing methods, you know you can still get burned by a damn wire and it still happens occasionally.

You know.

Yeah.

And it's frustrating, but you work through it and you won't get burned by it again.

You try to think of all the variables when you're going through this stuff, like, okay, I'm pretty sure I'm to a conclusion.

I've done these tests.

It's showing me this and I'm like, well, what if this really weird thing happened?

Would it, you know, be showing me these results but really be something else?

And then I'm like, okay, well, how do I prove that?

Or how do I test for that scenario?

And you can't think of them all.

That's the problem.

But you know, I've been in situations like you're referring to there or that comes into mind and I'm just like, well, what if the two wires were kind of corroded and touching each other?

Could that be the scenario?

Well, I better check for that.

And you know, sometimes I do way more testing.

That's necessary, but it's what you gotta do.

Right.

You know, because there's weird stuff out there.

There's strange problems you don't see coming unless you've been through this.

And that's, you know, kind of after thoughts, that I had to because we're dealing with, you know, low current wires, right.

So I'm like, well, how did I miss this?

Because you know, load testing them, even with an ohm meter, you know none of them are shorter together.

It would say, you know oil on my meter.

And I'm like, well, you know, scratching my head and you know, trying to think about it.

But you know that corrosion, like you said, and I've watched it in a lot of, like you know, scanner, dander videos and stuff too, you know, and it makes sense because corrosion, or even, like your body, you can transfer voltage, you know, through essentially, but at the same time it can still be shorted.

So I don't know how, if I'm saying it right, but you know.

So you have your potentiometer.

It wasn't dead shorted.

So the PCM was still seeing a change, but maybe not quite in the parameters it needed to.

You know it was just enough corrosion, just enough continuity to skew that signal wire back or the low reference, and the PCM was just like, nope, not happy setting the code.

So you know, visual, and this one wouldn't have turned up in a visual inspection.

You know we've had to really manipulate the harness and move it around to get it to happen.

But you know, you know school's always in session.

I learn something new every day, no matter how many years you do it.

I'm sure you do too, but it's stuff you put up in your memory bank.

That one's not gonna burn me again, you know it's.

Every day is a learning experience and that's one thing I really enjoy about it, because people see it and get frustrated and can easily say get this thing to the dealer, we can't fix it.

And you know, and I'm like, no, I'm finding out what's wrong with this.

I came into work, you know early.

You know half hour 40 minutes, so it wasn't even technically on the clock.

I'm like we're getting to the bottom of this.

This is not gonna kick my ass, you know.

And then find it, fix the wire.

Everybody's happy, so that's right.

That's what it's all about, man.

It's never boring, that's for sure.

Cool man, well, I appreciate you spending some time with me.

It's nice to get to meet you, and we're actually not too far from each other, so we'll probably have to meet up one of these days in person.

Yeah, if you're ever in the Fargo area, feel free to reach out or message me and give you my number and we should do lunch or something sometime.

And yeah, this is great.

I'm glad you had me on there.

I've listened to a lot of them there and I like shop talk and like getting on there with you, so I'm, yeah, grateful to be on your show.

Thanks for inviting me.

Yeah, definitely, and same goes for you.

If you're in the Twin Cities area at all, just hit me up and we'll grab lunch or dinner or something I'd be happy to do.

That I was great to meet people in the industry.

Yeah, especially ones with similar interests.

In the industry too, bounce ideas off of different ways of thinking.

That's always a game changer when you can collaborate and network a little bit.

Yes, sir.

All right, that's gonna do it for today's episode.

Another big thank you to Chris for joining me on the show today.

That was great.

Also, I'd like to thank everybody out there for listening to the show.

Really appreciate it.

But with that all out of the way, let's get out there.

Start fixing the world, one card at a time.

Repeating music.

214: Chris Higgins

Master Tech

Zevo Bright Drop

Ford Taurus

Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet Impala

About this episode

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