280 - The Round Table XIV Episode

280 - The Round Table XIV Episode The EV Musings Podcast · Dec 15, 2025

Annotations will appear as you listen

0:00

53:38

Car

Dacia Spring

LIVE

Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 280 of EV Musings, a podcast about renewables,

electric vehicles and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners.

And on the show today is the season-ending round table episode.

This season of the podcast is sponsored by Zatmap, the go-to app for EV drivers helping you find

and pay for public charging with confidence. Now our main topic of discussion, well it's

a multitude of topics because it's a round table. Now this is our normal end of season

show and usually, as I tend to do, I invite a number of different people on to discuss different

aspects of the EV environment. I'm very pleased to say that this season we brought together three

of the titans of the industry for what promises to be quite an intriguing discussion.

The three individuals I'm about to introduce represent the three major groups of people

involved in the UK electric vehicle sphere and the each run industry groups focused on

different aspects of the EV experience. So let me start by introducing someone who

represents the charging industry. Vicky Reid is the CEO of Charge UK, an industry body that

represents charge point operators and ancillary businesses, and she speaks to the government

and the public on their behalf. Welcome Vicky. Hi Gary. Next I'd like to introduce Tanya Sinclair.

Tanya is the CEO of Electric Vehicles UK. This is an industry to consumer accelerator

founded in September 2024 to drive the UK's transition to battery electric vehicles. EVUK

almost as a go-between for the industry and the end user. So welcome Tanya. Hello.

And finally I want to introduce Vicky Edmonds. Vicky is the CEO of EVA England which is a

major body representing EV users in the UK and they lobby government for better EV conditions

and they were fundamentally pushing forward things like the PAS 1899 accessibility regulations

for charges as well as campaigning for these mandates. So welcome Vicky. Hi Gary.

Now it's not going to be an issue having two Vickies on the panel is it? We'll see how that

happens. It's quite easy to scary. We're very often in the same place.

Normally in these situations I ask each panelist to bring a topic of interest to them. They

introduce it. We discuss it as a group and move on. But given that we've got such esteemed

executives on the same call, I want you to mix things up a little bit. So I've got a

number of thoughts, comments and questions that I want to put forward on behalf of the

EV driving members of the general public and I hope that this will spark something of a debate.

So first question to everyone. Help list us to understand exactly what is the difference between

all your organisations. You're all trade bodies but none of you are actually active in the areas

that you cover. Charge UK don't provide charging although their members do. EV UK don't buy,

make or sell electric vehicles and EVA England lobbies on behalf of all EVA drivers regardless

of where they're located in the UK. So take me through those boundaries please. Who wants

to start? Can I pick someone? Vicki Edmunds. Thanks Gary. Yes so I suppose and perhaps it's

helpful to say how we differ from other organisations in this space as well. So we are a members association

so we're funded by drivers and by philanthropic funds which means we're independent of commercial

interests. So we can really represent the individual or the person in the transition

and we can rattle the cages of both government and industry to say actually

this is what's working for the driver, this is why EVs are attracted to them,

this is why they aren't, these are the issues in the system which I'm sure Vicki will come on

to talk about this as often charging related but actually there are other issues around the

vehicles as well. So we can talk to both government and industry and say look you know

there are changes that need to happen. If you want drivers to get into these vehicles

these things need to be true, these things need to happen to make it more attractive for them

and that's our role within this space and we also play a role in making sure that the

framework or the regulatory, the legal framework that sits behind the transition

is the right framework to drive the right behaviours across the industry

to make sure that the right products are out there, that they're being used in the right way.

So that's our kind of the lobbying and campaigning function that we provide as well.

So how does that differ Tanya from what Electric Vehicles UK do?

Well I'm so pleased you asked this because in the first three months I've been in this role

I spent a lot of that time setting out exactly how we're different and why we're important

in the ecosystem of organisations that are campaigning for electric vehicles and the fact

that we don't sell electric vehicles is precisely the point because drivers really need to have a

space where they can come and find out more about electric vehicles beyond online research,

seeing the products in in real life without feeling sold to or being sold to and so that's

the role that we really fulfil is to try and tackle any misconceptions, any nervousness,

any misinformation that people might have about EVs but without feeling that they have to then

transact at the ends of it. We don't force anybody in this industry to get into an EV but we want to

assist them on the process of finding out more information at such time that they're ready to

start driving electric. And Vicky Reid what's the overlap between the lobbying that Charge UK

do and the lobbying that EVA England do? Well so like EVA England we're a membership

organisation but rather than individuals who drive EVs we represent the companies

that are installing and operating charging infrastructure. So we were founded two and a

half years ago in April 2023 to represent the EV charging sector, the companies

installing, investing in charging infrastructure. We've now got 43 members, most of those are

public charge operators installing you know those 80 I think nearly 70,000 charge points

we now have publicly available but also some of the other companies in the space so the

MSP providers, the roaming providers that forms factories etc. Essentially Vicky's drivers are

my members' customers. They'll be going about they're either charging at home or they're charging

in public and Tanya has a sort of separate but equally important role which is to try and help

support more drivers to move over to EV because without that influx of people coming

into an EV and buying EV my members don't have any future customers and they find it

more challenging to invest. So all these little bits need to work together and we speak a lot

together. We've got different perspectives to bring but it's really a joint effort in trying to move

us all forward. Now as organisations you all carry out regular surveys of EV drivers in the industry

and the replies that tend to come back and I am generalising, they always tend to be quite

similar. EVs are too expensive, the charging infrastructure isn't there, there's worries

about battery health and range. Now why are we still getting the same answers after all

these years because I think a lot of those things that I've just talked about, if we go

back seven or eight years I think absolutely 100% those are problems that we had at that time.

I'm not sure the problems, my perception of the problems are different to that. I'm not

sure those are the same things that we should be looking at but those tend to be what is coming

back from the surveys. Why are we still getting the same answers? What's the delay? What's

stopping us at least in the end user's view from actually moving forward? Tanya do you

want to talk about that for a second? Yeah I think my view on why we're getting the same

answers is that we're asking the same questions and we are framing our surveys in terms of challenges.

So what's stopping you? What's your problem? What's your nervousness? And we also talk a lot

about one of the physical kind of barriers to you having an EV that you know it might be

charging, it might be price, it might be the perception of range anxiety, perceived range

anxiety. There is a whole suite of other reasons that people are hesitant to get into an electric

vehicle and they're nothing to do with the physical aspects of the vehicle at all. They are

emotional so people might just be nervous, they might just be a bit scared of change,

they maybe have never held a charging cable before and don't know what they would do with it

and they maybe haven't driven an EV before. And so I think that if we start and this

is the work that we do at EBUK, start to have those conversations about talking

about the nervousness and the confidence and starting to reframe it in terms of just

giving access to electric vehicles and ensuring that there's ability to break down those barriers,

those emotional kind of barriers. That would I think really start to see some different

results in the questions that we ask of the driving public. Vicki anything to add

from the Charge UK point of view on that? I agree. I think in this transition we're on

as a country and as individual drivers quite frankly, there are two journeys going on. There's

one that's just the real journey and the second is how you perceive it. I think if you go back,

you say Gary kind of several years, even just four or five years ago, the reality situation

was quite different. There were a few EVs charging with some of its early days being

rolled out. Now things have changed hugely and I'm sure we'll come on to what more

is to be done in terms of charging but there are an awful lot more chargers than people think there are.

At the vast majority of time they do work and there are plenty of ways to charge affordably and

again there's room for improvement all of those things but we're moving very much in the right

direction. But things are moving so quickly that that perception is very often a couple of years

behind. People tend to form their views and we all deal on different things through conversations

they might have had with somebody, an experience they might have had a couple of years ago

and that feeling sticks with them for a long time until they're given a reason not to

feel like that and I think we've got this ongoing challenge which is our members' role is to get

that infrastructure into the ground, make sure it's working, make sure it's available, all those

sorts of things and then we have to work with the rest of the ecosystem to communicate that and

that's almost the more challenging part. So I think it's about those questions of rally

questions, people are nervous, they don't know the answers, they're concerned so as well as

getting on with doing this stuff we've got to communicate it properly as well.

Absolutely, I mean I always have to remind myself that

90, 95% of the UK driving population have never driven an electric vehicle, they have no idea what

it's all about and it's you know that they're being influenced a lot by what they're hearing

from people who are also in the same situation so it's not an accurate sort of perception that

they have. Vicky Edmunds, talk to me a little bit about the recent Steer the conversation

document that you produced please. Good timely as well because it is exactly right Gary,

it was one of our annual driver's surveys where we go out to I guess more than just DB drivers as

part of our annual survey so we try to capture the views of hybrid drivers and non-electric drivers

and I think when you say the barriers the same, they are for the non-EV drivers so I think whenever

we talk non-EV and I think Tanya and Vicky have made valid points they don't really know this

sector, they don't understand it and so they take their barriers from what they're hearing from

people and what they're hearing from the press and they do come up as upfront course, range

of anxiety, not sure the charging world is going to work for me, not sure how this is going to fit

into my lifestyle but we do actually get very different results when we talk to EV drivers

and I think as I say for our organisation that that's the important thing because it's

if EV drivers are still finding problems then we need to sort that out because we need

to make this system work seamlessly, as seamlessly as the current petrol and diesel

system works if we're going to persuade that 95% of them and the rest of the mass

market across to these cars and so when you talk to EV drivers the charging divide, the cost of

public charging comes up as the number one issue now and because that's something that all of them

are experiencing it's the sort of one of one of their kind of big frustrations, also some of the

kind of frustrations around the processes at charge point and I think the public charge

point regulations have done a lot to make it easier for drivers and obviously I know Vicky's

members are working really hard at trying to make charge points work as seamlessly as possible

but they all work slightly differently and the payment process can be slightly clunky for people

so we get that a lot from current EV drivers and when we talk to them about cost it's more

of a retrospective this was actually a really big jump for me to take so that upfront cost

barrier is still there and they still remember it so I think the same things come up that the

priorities and the order shift and the nuances shift when you talk to EV drivers and I think

I think it's really important to focus on that as well as on the wider issues around

kind of upfront cost range anxiety that we hear from the non-driving EV driving set.

Yeah, absolutely. Now I've started with a couple of fairly easy questions for you and I'm

kind of going to move into devil's advocate mode here because I'm kind of renowned for doing that.

I attend many conferences, listen to many panels, read lots of articles from

many different organisations including yours and one of the underlying themes that seems

to come out of there in a lot of the things that I'm reading and panels that I'm attending

and if I might paraphrase it a little bit is most of what needs to be done in large

proportion what needs to be done to make this work seamlessly is the responsibility of the

government. Now given the general reluctance of the government to make the right moves and

we'll come and talk about the budget in a little bit because I'm sure you're dying to talk

about that how long have we been asking for VAT equalisation on home versus public

charging and that still seems to be something they're not even going to consider.

So given the general reluctance of the government to do things like that,

why do we still think the government will do the right thing at the right time?

If you read any thoughts?

I think I'd like to challenge that assumption that basis which is I think this is

needs to be an industry driven rollout because the government is not going to pay for all of

this and quite very why should it and the good news here is that actually there is plenty of

private investment that wants to come and do this so what we actually do need for the government

is not large sums of money but in particular it's the right framework the right basis for

investment to come in and then once it's come in for it to be deployed easily and supported like

that. So I think that's where our focus is. We don't go knocking on Treasury's door every five

minutes saying can we have some money although sometimes targeted money to unlock particular

challenges is helpful. What we're looking for is an indication that there's a lot of billions

of investment looking to be deployed across the whole world and across different sorts

of infrastructure. We need to make sure that the UK charging infrastructure in our case is

where people choose to come. Money is mobile it can go elsewhere. When we launched

two years ago, two and a half years ago, we committed £6 billion to deploy infrastructure

through to 2030. I suspect we'll need more than that but that's that's an indication the sums

of money available. We just need the right environment and we can we can bore this

down into lots of different things but it means are we going to be able to deploy easily?

Is the grid connection smooth? Are the EVs going to be bought and sold? It's those quite

high level things that we need indications for then that money comes in and then we're

dealing with perhaps more granular things to do with you know how to make sure that on-street

charging is available and funds and working with local authorities and public charging

regulations those things but the fundamentals need to be in place and then the money will flow.

So Tanya if I kind of lead on from what Viki said there we have the situation a number of

years ago where there was a plugging car grant I know the first couple of vehicles that I had

that were electric benefited from that and then that was stopped and there was a slight

impact on the the number of sales of electric vehicles and then all of a sudden that's kind

of come back into it that the the figures are slightly different the eligibility of certain

vehicles is different but we've now got this this grant that we didn't have whatever it was six

eight months ago. Talk to me a little bit about the impact of that and kind of link that back

into what I was saying about is this something that we need the government to do or do we not

really need a plugging car grant to help sales what are your thoughts on that?

We need is an underpinning of consistency so I think the point that the government is missing

with all of the policy levers it turns on and off at varying points so you know since the

summer we've had you know half a dozen between funding for charging Levi the plug it the new

electric car grants and electric vehicle 3p per mile so there's lots of things happening

each one of those sends a different signposts to the consumer to the driver about whether the

government wants them to get into an electric car or not and all we want them to do is say yes

we want you to get into an electric car we want your next car to be electric and

here is all the policy every time there is a policy announcement it should be nudging the

driver in that direction and that is not currently the case in addition to that I think

it's really important that the government knows it doesn't always have to do more doing less is

also sometimes quite helpful and staying where you are is also sometimes quite helpful so I think

that there's a something to be said for letting this market develop we are really 15 years old

but I mean in its current sort of recognisable state you know a bit over a decade old and this

market needs time to develop and manufacturers of everything all products and services need

time to develop their products and services and find the right place in the market for them

and for the most part over that decade period the government has managed to strike a good balance

between not being too interventionist and adjusting the market forces that are going to help this

market actually succeed and you sort of see now that you know I don't know in some sort of

I can't be drawn on what the rationale is but you can see the sort of slightly you know there's

there's steps they're taking that are causing a market effect that could be seen as slightly too

interventionist on some of the participants so we've kind of drifted into the budget which is

a nice topic that I did want to talk about but before we sort of go into that in detail I

was speaking to an individual who has asked to remain on a non-attributable basis but

is known to all three of you and he said nobody in the EV world should be looking at the 3p a mile

thing and going it's not bad it could be worse because in his view that's not too far from obeying

in advance there should be moves underway to lobby against this and any green or eco supporter who

accepts this without a fight isn't doing their job there is a lack of joint thinking the timing

is wrong and there are numerous other solutions that should be put in place before this tax is

implemented fairly strong words I think you'll agree anybody like to comment on that I don't

mind going Gary I had some comments on your previous question as well actually if I could

if I could just I just I think I think just on the kind of government's role I actually think

this transition is moving very quickly now the Zefmandi is is good but it's forcing

the pace of the transition that might take a bit longer and it isn't self-sustaining yet

so I actually think and I think government knows that so I think that's where it's pump priming

and quite aggressively pump priming this transition with a lot of money and a lot of numbers I think

what we need to make sure is that those that money and those numbers are targeted where they're

most needed so I think again kind of as EVA England that's what we will be focusing on I also

think they have a massive role as I say in making sure the right regulatory framework sits

behind the transition to incentivize the right behaviors as the transition rolls out and by

that I mean the regulation is there to protect the consumer ultimately so just to make sure that

actually when when products are being rolled out they are safe they are reliable they are

affordable so I think I think they still have quite a big role to pay given the pace at which

this is going and then you hope that it will it will ease off as the sector becomes slightly

more self-sustaining in this and works better I think for consumers on the paper I look like

I absolutely get that and to be honest before the budget we were in that same

space we wrote an open letter to the Chancellor saying that this is this is the wrong idea at the

wrong time like nobody disagrees that we need to have this conversation but doing it so suddenly

with such a specific proposal right now and only two years time is really going to shake and

rattle the market however it is really clear from what Treasury are saying that this is

this is going to happen and I think as an organization if we don't pivot to try to

make sure that it happens in the best way possible for drivers and also to use it as

leverage to make sure as I say that that that money and that regulatory framework is actually

targeting the gaps and where is so you know at 1.3 billion top up to the actual car ground

that's great but is the new car ground the right way to put it actually the use car market we need

a stronger thriving use car market to support the whole transition so should we be focusing

on that with that money so I don't want them to use these new incentives as a blunt instrument

anymore we want to make sure they're targeting the right way and I think as an organization

if we didn't try to focus on that as well we would be we would be wasting our time because as I

say I think this is a done deal Treasury have been really clear we're not expecting them to

use her on it every conversation we've had with Treasury officials is this is happening

what we need to make sure is it works for drivers the mechanism works

and that the incentives that surround it that supporting package is targeted in the right

way okay so if it's okay for me to come in and in support of what Vicki said with a little

bit of evidence about about quite how destructive 3p per mile has the potential to be

the the the market's impact of 3p per mile doesn't start in 2028 when the policy starts

it said last week when it was a now in fact it's before she announced it because the nervousness

and the lack of comps was stoned when she floated various trial balloons stood at the dispatch

dispatch box and announced the consultation on the mechanism within that consultation on the

mechanism there is zero consideration given to the behavioral impacts so people getting nervous

about and the acts of of the policy on that and so as a result it's figures about how much that

policy the 3p a mile is going to raise are inaccurate because as the OVR has said and as

the energy systems catapult has modeled are a far greater reduction in number of people that are

going to get into electric vehicles because they're nervous about what this is going to do with them

do for them addition to that there's also a problem with the way that the proposal has been

constructed for anyone who doesn't own their own vehicles so leasing in particular and those are

the people who are going to be leasing cars today on a three-year term who are going to come

straight up against this new tax regime in 2028 that has not been designed for them and has

not been bottomed out in terms of exactly how it's going to work for them it's extremely concerning

that the lack of thought from the Treasury and not to mention that not only will this tax raise

not raise enough to plug the hole it's designed to plug but it also then will impact our climate

change commitments to decarbonize that has transferred through into the 2050s it's you

know the seeds the seeds of that are being sown today and they're not being sown if people

are not getting into electric cars so the ramifications of designing a policy to plug a hole in the tax

receipt that has behavioral impact that passed the effects of which can last decades is really

can't be understated like Vicki says it is absolutely detrimental to the market that

they've decided it's a done deal and I think the other thing that not a lot of people have

actually I mean people will have thought about it but I don't think I haven't seen much out in

the the public domain about this is the Office of Budget Responsibility OBR whatever it is have

said that as a result of this there are going to be fewer electric vehicles sold now they

pick plugs a figure of 440,000 out of the air on the day of the budget and then walk that back to

150,000 I think now regardless of which figure you choose that's going to have an impact on

the ZEV mandate which means that there are going to be fewer vehicles sold but the ZEV mandate

is still going to be at that particular percentage and is this going to give the manufacturer as the

OEMs a little bit more ammunition to push back again on the ZEV mandate what do we think about that?

I mean very possibly I mean if we just think back 12 months to last Christmas when Christmas

Eve we're all delighted to receive the ZEV mandate consultation we were having

another of these big sort of signposting discussions and tenure is right but

there's lots of detail going on all the time but there has been at least three of

these big moments in the last 12 months about is this happening are we accelerating are we not

we've had the ZEV mandate consultation then the decision yes okay we'll settle that it's 2030 then

we had some EV car grant in July and then this and we've been kind of back and forth and back

and forth it's consumers you receive this messaging and by gosh that that's three pence

when we'll cut through like nothing else I'm sure we all had people who aren't in this

in this EV world come into us saying what's going on Vic you know and it's not just

consumers it's investors in charging for each other who are looking and following so

I think it's the budget just last week is very very consequential and you know in some ways again

we're back to this whole reality versus perception thing which is actually there was a lot in the

budget which was there to liberate trying counterbalance the impact of the EVED and

no we got some some things in there uncharging that we were very supportive and happy about

but at the end of the day it comes down to whether the consumers are going to buy and

how they're going to respond and obviously there's some estimations in the OBR time will

tell what that really means but I don't think we can rest on our laurels and expect that this

will just be accepted I think we're going to have to work quite hard whether it's a question of

going back to the the policy itself and looking that or working with it somehow and trying to

communicate to drivers actually this is still works this is still for the vast majority of people

it's still cost-effective I'm sure we'll come on to the public charging part of this later on

but you know it's this it's this perception issue which we need to battle very very heavily

and I think it's I mean you brought up an excellent point there which is you know people like me and

I think most of the people on the call um no I'm saying that I don't actually know people

like me who can charge at home who pay a mile on off-peak an extra 3p on top of that I'm

still quits in when it comes to looking at that in relation to petrol or diesel but there's

there's people that I know who lists the podcast Abigail Dumbay from Bright for example and she'll

be jumping up and down and going yes but I don't have a home charger I have to charge on public

charge in 100% of the time in Brighton she's at the the mercy of the CPOs who are there who are

not necessarily providing quote unquote cheaper off-peak rates so the rate she's paying at

the moment is already high and then there is an additional three pence a mile so talk to me a

little bit about is there anything that charge UK can do that can help alleviate that or is there any

influence that charge UK for example can have with the government that can help to influence that

and offset this three people mile evade well I get up most mornings with that in mind which is

no we've we've got three things we can really think about which is the availability of charge

points and we've talked about how we get more out there and we've got various work going on

to try and remove the barriers that including investment barriers we've got questions around

reliability maybe we'll come on to that later on but the one which has been rising up the the kind

of list of things that consumers talk about is is affordability so that's why we published a

paper back in September I'm really glad we did now because it was all about how we

collectively deliver affordable charging for all and I think we're very clean to say

for most people that you know charging at home is very cost effective even if you can't

there are lots of ways to charge affordable and Gary you've done several episodes on how

to do that but the truth is that the average cost of public charging has risen

in recent years I think it's 38% since 2021 so we wanted to do something to really acknowledge

that first of all we know about this we care it matters to us it matters to us not because we're

nice individuals but actually if the cost of charging is putting people off from switching

that's a problem for us because it means fewer consumers so we need to do something about it

so we did a piece of work trying to identify well why has this happened

and what can we do about it and I think this is now coming into really sharp focus now so

regardless of what happens to evad and I think there will be plenty of discussions about whether

that's going to go ahead going to go ahead in its current form but regardless we need to do something

to look at how we make this viable for everybody regardless of their situation so

we're doing a huge amount just to pinpoint some of the problems that we've faced as a sector

and why those costs are they are it's really down to three issues two of the first ones are

energy related we all suffered as a country in the energy crisis a couple of years ago pushing up

wholesale prices the same applies to the business is running charge points and that level has not

really come down significantly or it has come down for its peak it's now it's still a 66%

higher than the start of the decade and that matters we've got issues to do with how our

standing charges are calculated that's the fixed price you pay for some sites particularly those

rapid and ultra rapid sites which people want to see that's risen 462 percent since 2021 which is

insane figure and then we've got the ever present VAT which sits into everything so there were reasons

why public charging costs what it is it does as a sector we are really really keen to make

sure that everyone can charge affordably across a range of different options and we'll be

spending you know we've already spending a lot of time trying to address that through various

different angles VAT equalization dressing standing charges there's various other things that can be

done and we'll be getting on with that even you know even even you know more concretely now that

the the budget's happened and this is becoming cost of public charge is paying what key

differentiator which is does this work for you or not before we is there anything anyone

that wants to say more about the budget because I don't want to move on but I do have like

an extra comment that I want to fit in between the end of the budget and the start of where we

of our next topic of conversation so any other final comments about the budget

well if I could have a few bit funny you go first sorry no well I just wanted me in

to talk about people who can't charge at home because I cannot so I live in a in a

terrace and on the street where I can find it so occasionally it's in my street it might be

in front of the next street and I'm relying on the public network networks in London and I think

that you know the pricing that comes to you know the price that I pay and the constituent parts of

that tax energy and so on are part of the problem but there is an also a variance piece that is

really important to nail if we are going to encourage drivers to get out of the mindset

of I can't drive an EV because I can't charge at home because you can but it is difficult

and those problems are you know if you can absorb price differential the significant price

differential on top of that there are user experience frankly that would not be acceptable

in any other sector and it's quite surprising that we have persisted as an industry to just

accept that that's part of the way that we have to use charging by which I mean specifically

chargers not working a charger saying they're working and they're not working with their

explanation chargers failing to recognize our chargers looking a connector and charger

and you know this is stuff that I'm an interest I've worked in this industry so I've got a degree

of understanding a huge degree of sympathy with why these things happen but we are not going to get

skeptical people into electric vehicles until we can do that and that's just the physical

problems and you also have pre-authorization for ranging anything from £30 for every transaction

you have hidden costs or different costs concurrently on the same charger depending on

roaming network you use to access it it goes on and on I won't labour the point but I'd say that

you know this is stuff it lies with the individual CPOs to work together to standardize the user

experience of charging in order that drivers who don't care which CPO they use there is no

brand affinity to it they want the fuel that they are providing they don't need any innovation or any

sort of brand equity in a particular app they just want their chargers to work and the charging

CPOs especially in places where as the non-streets need could do better

resolving that between them I just I mean I think Tanya's probably summed up most of the

survey results we get from drivers around operation of charge points but I also just

come back to the fact that it's absolutely right but there are regulations in place and

there isn't a great monitoring system for them and I think that we have drivers who want to make

formal complaints to the sort of public charge management agencies supposed to be monitored

by the OPSS the gets office for product station standards drivers have no idea who OPSS is they

have no idea what the complaint route is so again one of our one of our jobs is to try to

make sure that that system actually works for drivers that that feedback loop between drivers

government and industry is working and and it's not at the moment I think Tanya's kind of

summarized those things I actually just wanted to talk very briefly about the budget Gary but

not necessarily to dwell on the budget announcements I mean I think we talked about

the new e-verd kind of three-page per mile we talked about the supporting package

that surrounds it and how that must be targeted I also think going back to your point about

the person you spoke to behind the scenes who kind of wants us all to do more to trash it

I have to say I have had a lot of conversations with a lot of different drivers since the

budget was announced and I think it is really important to recognize that driver sentiment

is not necessarily as against this as people think it is so there are a lot of EV drivers I

speak to who think this is actually the right thing to do as long as it's done in the right way

and as long as it's done the right time so again it's that timing question there are a lot

of non EV drivers who have it's now been drawn to their attention in a way it wasn't before

that they are paying more to use the roads and they are furious about it and so I think

if we ignore that and if we just have to say that this is a terrible scheme I think we will be

doing everyone a disservice as I think we need to be very aware that actually a lot of drivers

want this to happen and now it's really about making sure it happens in the right way because

that is part of attracting more drivers into electric is that they think that there is a

fair system out there that if they transfer across actually they're probably going to be paying

less to use the roads and they would be you know if they were using fuel duty and as long

as we can sort out that public charging cost issue which I agree with the Kintana is the most

pressing issue right now then actually there is you know I think that's the main issue is that

we need to sort that out and then we need to make sure that we're reflecting consumer sentiment

and making sure that that's reflected back to government and development of this scheme.

Yeah I think the the comment that I wanted to make I think we might have mentioned it

earlier on is there's a lot of things that the government are doing which we agree with

there's a lot of things that the government are doing that we don't necessarily agree with and

I think the phrase that I've heard more than once is there's a lack of joined up thinking in the

government so my challenge to you is what are your organisations going to do to try and influence

this joined up thinking to make sure that yes we do need to be able to pay our way but we don't

want to do it in a way that is detrimental or too early or will have a knock on effect on

sales of EVs for example. Let's look at ourselves we're not the only sector sitting

here thinking that there's no joined up thinking and there'll be other sectors having other discussions

right now incredibly unhappy about the budget which was tough for lots of different reasons

and I guess the reality is we have to work within the political system and I think although I think

we're all trying hard and I think you know have I think good relations with different places

in government we cannot fix the whole of government from this corner so we have to work out how

to use it to advantage. I think one of the key things to think about here is there are different

departments at play with different incentives and different things they're trying to achieve

the budget sits with Treasury and a lot of decisions sit with them so you could probably

go through that budget and work out which things have come from which department if you want to

of course that doesn't help us here and doesn't help the driver it's a problem but I think it's

about and we'll be thinking about this very much as well as Child UK going into next year which is

how do you this is not you know how do you make this work from a Treasury point of view

a wider political point of view you know we like to talk about investment in infrastructure we like

to talk about future proofing our country we like to talk about make sure this works

for ordinary people and all your drivers so we're all here in a in a kind of we spend a lot of time

talking to other people in the industry people who are already driving EV we need to make sure we

don't stay within this bubble which is you know fantastic to talk and exchange things like this

but actually we need to make sure these things are relevant either from an investment of business

a kind of economic growth point of view and from an individual person point of view think

about how we're presenting this in the wider context and I think that's if we do that we

take that consistent message around to government and try and make sure it appeals to different

entities we have a fighting chance but I think this is the reality of to work around to the best we can

so in the UK it feels a slightly different role in the in the process and that is that

if you look around the EVED and the budget is a tasting point the MPs and civil servants and

indeed local councillors and council officials are tasked with making high consequential decisions for

our industry with for the most part little to no experience of electric vehicles or charging

by which I mean that they not only might not be EV drivers but they might not be just at all

and so the role that EVUK is fulfilling is to enable access and experience of those technologies

to the people making the decisions so you know we won't lobby per se but we will represent

what drivers are thinking to those political audiences but we'll also say look you know if you

want to understand more about this and you want to make informed decisions when it's the future

of regulation and legislation in this space these come and drive an EV these come and drive one

and we'll drive it to a charter and you can use a charter and you can see the impacts of the

work that you're doing when you're sat on the benches of the House of Commons or wherever it might be

and I really pick up in policy decisions is where you can see there's been the hand of someone that's

an EV driver and where that hasn't so talk to me a little bit about the consumer experience Vicki

so I think as I mentioned earlier we tend to think in terms of there are three things we're

trying to do for drivers here making sure the charge point is available you know making

sure they're enough across the country in the right place making sure it's affordable and I've

spoken a little bit about how we're trying to do that and the third is always consumer experience

and we talk about reliability is I think perhaps the world which always brings to mind but really it

means the entire consumer experience which is can I find the charge point is it easy to park

is it available is it iced can I work at how to pay for it does it then work when I plug it

in I think there's a whole how I had a successful charge is the question we're talking about here

I think even once we've worked out you know where are the chargements in the right place

and are they affordable this is the third thing we need to get right I think we know that very much

as an industry and I can assure you that everyone gets up every morning working in member companies

trying to do that every single day and try and improve and they're also trying to compete with

each other remember which is you know that the market is still young but eventually these will

be competing very much for drivers and drivers will won't sorry their feet but with their cars

and they will take them where where works best so I think there's been a lot of progress

in that I was pleased to see yesterday actually is that map saying that confidence in the public

network is improving but I'm you know I'm not going to pretend there's not some progress to make

we mentioned the public charge point regulations early on that was a really important

I guess line in the sand that came in a couple of years ago to say well this is here are a

number of aspects of consumer experience which are important let's try and draw a kind of minimum

standard if you like and let's make sure the sector meets those standards and ideally exceeds

them they're still bedding in and we're about to see some of I guess the reports coming out

in the next you know period of time see how things are going I think that's a really

important piece of a piece of regulation that we're working really hard to sort of take on

but we're also I mean you know there are other issues which aren't in there so pre-authorisation

has mentioned there are the bits and pieces as well the whole journey

pioneers even we're trying to do and within charge UK trying to sort of sort some of those

issues out before there we're looking at them in a policy document as part of regulation

because really it does make total sense for us to sort these out ourselves first so we're

doing some work with UK finance and the banks are trying to sort the pre-authorisation situation

out which really is a consequence of a new sector coming in and the very existing system that works

at fuel stations etc not quite knowing how to deal with us so there are some easy wins there are

some quite complex issues to work through but there are some things that we can take off the

table in terms of problems signage another one we work very hard so I think you know just

to reassure your listeners which is that the sector cares very much about consumer experience

it matters to them it matters from their business growth and their competitiveness

I think there's been some improvement but we're working very hard to push that on further

Can I also just jump in there as well because I think as I probably said

lots of times on this call I think the regulations exist to protect the consumer that's why

they're put in place I think they were a snapshot in time of what the sector was like

in 2017 when the AV Act was drafted and it became law in 2018 and then obviously the

regulations themselves take time to bring forward which is why we fought to get accessibility

into the into that kind of legislation because it was an obvious gap that should have been there

back in 2017 I think there are other perhaps less obvious gaps as well so I think I think the

work that Vicki's doing to to try to look across the sector and say okay what else do we

need to sort out I think government need to be looking at that that cannot be this is an

evolving sector it's evolving at pace we're getting more and more driver feedback on how

it's working an act that was drawn up in 2017 when the sector was pretty new cannot be the end

of a discussion on what the framework should be to make sure that as Tanya said this is a seamless

experience for consumers because it is it is that you're absolutely right Tanya like

why on earth are we all putting up with what is the substandard situation which which you

don't have at petrol and diesel stations and we need we need to bring the sector up to that

level can we talk about something that I hear this coming up all the time the general opinion

is that new EVs are more expensive than new internal combustion engine cars but yes that may be true but

in reality very very very very few people buy new EVs they're all leased or salary sacrifice

motability so the monthly amount that people end up paying is it's the same plus there are now

actually many EVs that are below the average sale price of an internal combustion engine car

you know the Renault 5 that's just come out with the that's now eligible for the for the

grant you look at the Dacia spring you know some very very good deals out there so Tanya what is the

real story on pricing and how's that affecting adoption of EVs I think we've become as we get

ever closer to it quite fixated on hope that springs forward from this idea of price parity

and that somehow there's going to be a moment where we all wake up and we're like price

parity hooray and and we all sort of celebrate or something you know it's a first ball of a

moment because of the multiple ways that we end up driving cars so to release very huge increase in

the number of types of lease purchase and salary sacrifice on a personal or business basis you know

that's really changing and not to mention the aggressive marketing plus the grants that are

flexing prices according to seasonality demands so there is a huge amount of kind of there'll

be a I think we're starting to enter that moment right now price parity so there are cubicles out there

that because of a combination of marketing and grants EV equivalents are the same price as the

ice equivalents so we're there and it's a the CCC said that in order to meet our seven

carbon budget obligations that are relating to you know decarbonizing surface transport that

26 to 28 is the the year that we should see price parity and I think we're going to hit

the earlier ends of that and what I think actually is is we sort of don't factor in

is the vehicles relative affordability to you know our own cost of living right so we do not

operate separately in the car market from the national economic challenges that we face

and it's not just a fact of whether you've got more money in your pocket due to tax and the

cost of energy the cost of food and all of that stuff but there's a perception of whether we

feel like yeah you know we're feeling about our future let's buy a new car I don't know many people

that are in that position right now so I think we've got ourselves a bit of grace as a market

that we do not operate in complete isolation to the mood of the nation and to the facts of how

much money we've got in our pockets as as consumers is driving. Vicki Edmunds any thoughts?

No I think I think that cost of living point is really important and I think we we have we

have just we are just finishing a study with one of our kind of partner organisations

transport and environment on access to local TVs for low-income households so I think that's the kind

of you know there is a point at which people view these cars as affordable to them and there is a

big range in what that point is depending on a household's individual circumstance and that is

actually what people are looking for and when we look at some other countries where they've

introduced social leasing schemes when the price is right for a particular price kind of

income bracket then they will get into these vehicles because it makes it is cheaper for them

and as we get into mass market that is going to be the real reason people jump across is because

they're going to find these vehicles are more affordable than running a petrol diesel question

and whether that's the upfront price or the fact that those messages around the fact is cheaper

to run them if you have a driveway get through I think and I think we're going to see that

as the prices drop I think from our point of view I had lots of debates with people about

whether the right thing to do is to pump by the new car market or whether we should be

doing more on the used car market and all these different kind of data analytical kind of

firms they all have different view on that government has a very particular view I think

which is that the new car market drives the second hand market the consumer genuinely

doesn't care about whose data is right and whose analysis is right the consumer wants

the right price points and what we see in our data from our surveys from drivers

is that we're 80 to 90 percent of drivers by second hand less than 25 percent of EV drivers

by second hand so there's a big discrepancy there now whether that's because the second hand

used EV market is not mature enough or whether it's because it's not affordable enough I don't know but

I think I think to exclude that you think to get people into the cars you need to look at the

whole market and make sure you've got a supporter base if there's a mandate is to succeed drivers

need to be behind it and at the moment they are not they're being forced into certain sections

of the market because there's a grant over here that suits them or there's a salary sacrifice

scheme here who suits them they're not necessarily getting into it because they think it's the

right thing to do now we need the whole market to think actually these cars are better and cheaper

for me to run so I'm going to that's why I'm going to get them and unless you focus on the use car

market I don't think we're going to get there we're coming to the end of our time together and I want

to finish as I usually do on any conversation with EVs on the topic of misinformation now we

recently lost a great EV advocate and fighter of disinformation with the death of Quentin

Wilson Tanya talked to me about some of the work that you're going to do to continue what

he started and a little bit about why misinformation or disinformation is such an issue for new

EV buyers it's an issue on a number of fronts it's an issue because it's so pervasive it's

everywhere when you look around not just your social media but your trusted media and it's

not not blatant it can be underhand so for example telling the story of one person's problem

with an electric vehicle but framed in such a way that it makes it feel like all of them

are problematic and then you also have some kind of quite determined disinformation and really

pleased you talked about both because even from within our sector there are actors that would like

to drag the pace of change down to suit their own timelines of whatever products and services

they're selling and want to to lead the market in so there's a there's a lot of very complex

forces and on top of that when I think it was back in 2023 a survey found that

actually who you trust the most more than online research is friends and family when

you're researching when to buy your next car it's quite interesting that if your friends

and family and non-EV drivers and are reading this online information misinformation

they're going to feed you some very negative thoughts about whether you should buy an EV

and those are very very trusted opinions to you the social media may not be but if it's

coming through the the mouths of your friends and family it increases the trust in that information

so that sets up the scale of the problem in terms of what to do about it this is not something

we're going to fix quickly but for me it all starts with breaking down barriers so getting

away from our screens like the solution to so many of our problems in life get away from our

screen and get out and try and get into a real car and form a judgment based on your own real

life experience of sitting in that car engaging with how it feels to drive and you know when

you find out that it's surprisingly much more affordable than you thought as with many of these cars

making a decision based off its own merits and you know I wish I had sort of clear answers but for me

something I've learned in the last three months in this role is that there is no substitute

for investing time in having one-on-one conversations not in our capacity as experts

but in our capacity as people that have done this and can tell you something you didn't know

before so yeah no silver bullet sadly but really like you say I'm pleased you mentioned Quentin

because we really try and carry on in the in the manner that that really he sort of blazed a trail

to help us you know we'd be we'd be wise to remember that you know banging the drum needs

to carry on even after he's he's gone. Any of the Vickies have anything to add to that?

Any of the Vickies I love I mean I think we're right back where we started

which is it's already due with emotions and confidence and this is why the disinformation

the misinformation the lack of information is so frustrating because actually even if it all

makes sense on paper people tend especially when they're buying their own personal car

it's a lot to do with how they feel and how confident they are and that's also you know

that's to do with you know not just people buying the cars but those investing you know

people working in local authorities the you know insurance companies who are saying whether

they're a charge point can be installed in a car or not it affects the whole chain through

detainees right there is no silver bullet these are all complicating these all because

they're all individual people making decisions on on complex inputs I think we need to just keep

going with getting the stuff working in reality and we've covered quite a bit of that today in

terms of how far we've come you know further to go and just keep keep talking in different

ways to different people as human beings most of the time and I think we know I'm

pretty confident we'll we'll get there eventually I think one thing I'd add to the

discussion around misinformation is that point of sale information dealerships a lot of our

drivers when they respond to our surveys pull that out as a really inadequate experience

that they're not getting the advice that they want when they go to dealership over

over the car that they want if they go in and suggest that they want an electric car

they're sometimes diverted towards the petrol and diesel cars and when they are

in discussions over electric or driving electric with dealerships then the people in the in

those centres often don't know that much about them I think that's something we really have

to get a grip on and address I know that the the sort of the national federation for dealers

the sort of trade body for dealers does work with the dealerships that are their members on

this I think there's a rule for manufacturers there but somebody has to grip this and say

how are we going to improve that service and that standard at that point of sale because

that's a real barrier to many people the EV Musings podcast is sponsored by Zapmap

the go-to app for EV drivers helping you find and pay for public charging with confidence

see what charge points are available right now with live availability and unrivaled UK

charge point coverage at your fingertips pay at thousands of charge points within the app

or with the Zapmap charging card join over a million EV drivers download Zapmap

and charge with confidence I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show I'd like to thank my

guests Vickery Tanya Sinclair and Vickie Edmunds for their time and the great discussions thank you

to you all if you have any thoughts comments criticisms or other general messages to pass

on to me I can be reached at info at evmusings.com on the socials I'm on blue sky at evmusings.b

sky dot social I'm also on instagram at evmusings where I post those little short

videos in the odd podcast extract regularly why not follow me there many thanks to everyone

who supports me through patreon on the monthly basis and through coffee.com on an ad hoc basis

now if you enjoyed this episode why not buy me a coffee go to coffee.com slash evmusings

and you can do just that ko-fi.com slash evmusings takes apple pay too

regular listeners will know about my two ebooks so you've gone electric and so you've gone renewable

now they're 99p each or equivalent and you can get them on the kennel store on amazon now check

out the links in the show notes for more information as well as a link to my regular

ev musings newsletter and associated articles now I've spoke to a few of you and I know

that you're probably driving walking jogging ironing all sat on the sofa watching this on your

phone but if you can remember and you enjoyed the episode drop a review in iTunes please like

subscribe leave a comment on YouTube because it really helps thank you very much now if you've

reached this part of the podcast and are still listening thank you why not let me know you've

got to this point by tweeting me at musings ev with the words highly esteemed guests

hashtag if you know you know nothing else and thanks as always to my co-founder Simon

you know I'll fill this bit in offline when I found something to uh there's a great quote from

all any of you we're not used to this Terry we're very often in the same place thanks for listening

goodbye

About this episode

A lively round table discussion featuring three UK EV industry leaders—Vicky Reid (Charge UK), Tanya Sinclair (Electric Vehicles UK), and Vicky Edmonds (EVA England)—explores the evolving electric vehicle landscape. They clarify their distinct roles, address persistent EV adoption barriers like cost, charging infrastructure, and misinformation, and debate government policies including the controversial 3p per mile EV tax. The panel highlights the emotional and perceptual challenges consumers face, the need for better regulation and consumer experience, and the importance of clear, consistent government support. They also emphasize combating misinformation and improving EV education at point of sale to accelerate the transition.

Dacia Spring Electric Cargo Renault 5 E-Tech Electric

Original notes

In this episode of the podcast Gary talks with three senior executives from within the EV industry in the end of season round table episode.

Vicky Read is the CEO of Charge UK, the industry body representing the ChargePoint operators

Tanya Sinclair is the CEO of Electric Vehicles UK, a body representing the EV industry

Vicky Edmond's is the CEO of EVA England, a body representing electric vehicles drivers and advocating for them with government.

As you can imagine with such luminaries on the round table the thoughts and opinions were varied and detailed.

Amongst many other topics we discussed:

- the budget

- the role of government vs private investment in the EV transition

- the state of the EV market and whether prices are going up or coming down

- charging issues and how these are being addressed

- and, of course, misinformation in the industry and why it is so detrimental.

The conversation covers the roles of various industry bodies, common concerns among EV drivers, the impact of government policies and budget decisions, consumer experiences with charging infrastructure, and the challenges posed by misinformation. The panelists emphasize the need for collaboration among industry stakeholders to improve the EV landscape and address the barriers to adoption.

Takeaways

The EV industry is represented by various organizations with distinct roles.
Consumer perception often lags behind the actual improvements in EV technology and infrastructure.
Government policies significantly impact the EV market, but industry-driven initiatives are crucial.
Public charging costs have risen, affecting consumer adoption of EVs.
Misinformation about EVs can deter potential buyers and influence public perception.
The transition to EVs requires a seamless experience for consumers, including reliable charging infrastructure.
Emotional barriers, such as fear of the unknown, play a significant role in EV adoption.
Collaboration among industry bodies is essential to address common challenges.
The used EV market needs to be developed to support broader adoption.
Ongoing communication and education are vital to counter misinformation and build consumer confidence.

The EV Musings Podcast is sponsored by Zapmap, the go-to app for EV drivers, helping you find and pay for public charging with confidence.

Links in the show notes: