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325: Not Charging, No Power Steering, Stalling, & No Codes... This Sounds Familiar
325: Not Charging, No Power Steering, Stalling, & No Codes... This Sounds Familiar
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About this episode
A deep dive into diagnosing a tricky issue on GM vehicles involving a 2017 Chevrolet Malibu and a 2016 Chevrolet Cruze. Both had symptoms like no power steering, no charging, stalling, and no diagnostic codes, all linked to incorrect or incompatible crankshaft sensors related to auto stop-start systems. The host shares practical testing tips, the importance of proper sensor selection, and how documenting diagnostic experiences can speed up future repairs. The episode also highlights the complexities of modern sensor signals and the value of expert resources for programming used control modules.
Topics:
diagnostic challenges
crankshaft sensor issues
auto stop-start systems
no power steering
charging system problems
stalling without codes
used control module programming
sensor signal differences
documentation for diagnostics
GM vehicles
This week on the show I share a case study on a 2017 Chevrolet Malibu. Not charging, no power steering, idle surging, stalling at idle, no heated seats or rear defrost... All this and NO codes anywhere. A strange problem for sure, but it seems oddly familiar to a vehicle I diagnosed back in 2020. See the link below if you want to check that one out.
https://autodiagpodcast.com/2020/07/06/28-everyone-can-use-a-silver-bullet-once-in-awhile/
Website- https://autodiagpodcast.com/
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Chevrolet Cruze
"...number 28. I did a case study on a 2016 Chevrolet Cruze with a 1.4 liter turbo that had some really weird..."
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Chevrolet Malibu
"...lly working on this week. It was a 2017 Chevrolet Malibu with a 1.5 liter turbo. So different engine, alth..."
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Welcome to the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast.
We're going to explore ways to sharpen our diagnostic skills, find learning resources, and hear from
experts in the automotive field.
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Hey, what's going on?
Automotive World.
Welcome to another episode of the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast.
My name is Sean Tipping, and I'll be your host once again for this week's episode.
Thank you so much for joining me.
I got just me on the show this week.
We are going to have a guest on for next week's episode.
But today, I want to talk about a car that I diagnosed this week.
But it's also a throwback to July of 2020.
I had just started this podcast.
It was episode number 28.
I did a case study on a 2016 Chevrolet Cruze with a 1.4 liter turbo that had some really
weird issues.
And it was an interesting fix.
If you haven't been listening to the show for that long, maybe you haven't heard
it.
This is going to be all new information to you.
If you have been listening for a long time, it's been a while.
I actually had to pull up the episode and listen to it to hear all the details.
As it turns out, the symptoms that I had on the car this week were exactly the same, like
identical.
A different car, slightly, but same era and same problem, although this one was a little
bit of a different scenario.
So I'll explain.
So first off, if you want to check out the earlier episode, again, episode 28, I'll
put the link in the show notes.
This was pretty early on, but I walked through how I found the problem and it was actually
an IETN post that got me there.
I was kind of lost and maybe I would have found it eventually, but it would have taken me a
lot longer than it did because someone else had already gone through the work.
But maybe I can be that for you now.
So anyways, what it ended up being on that Chevy Cruze was that the shop had just swapped
the motor and they had the wrong crankshaft sensor in there.
Now that sounds easy enough to diagnose.
We've seen problems like that on cars before where the wrong sensor gets put in.
There's maybe two different crankshaft reluctors that could be used in one application.
There's like a mid-year split and the engine will bolt in, but the pattern is different
between the two engines.
And so if you don't get that correct, well, the computer's not going to start the
engine.
We've seen that across different brands even on a, what was the one recently, there was a
Ford engine that was installed and they put the crankshaft reluctor in, but there was a
switch between a VR two-wire sensor and a Hall Effect sensor in that year range and
they got the wrong one.
So it was outputting a signal.
If you scoped it, you saw a pattern, but it wasn't right.
The computer wasn't expecting that.
It was looking for something completely different.
And so it wasn't going to start from that.
Now there was some harness stuff that was messed up on that one too, but anyways, we see these
kinds of problems.
Missing tone wheels, that's another one where, you know, that sandwiched in between the
crankshaft and the flex plate and oops, we forgot to put it on there.
That's going to be an issue.
Again, just wrong sensor, bad sensor.
We get these things with engine swaps, but this one was a little bit stranger.
So I'm going to walk you through the symptoms here.
And I should probably set up the vehicle that I'm actually working on this week.
It was a 2017 Chevrolet Malibu with a 1.5 liter turbo.
So different engine, although the same family of cars, it's a 16 to a 17 and a 1.4 turbo
and a 1.4 turbo to a 1.5 turbo.
So a little bit of a difference there.
It's not like the parts are interchangeable between the two engines, but again, it's kind
of the same era and family of vehicles.
So what I'm dealing with on this Malibu, and again, this is mirror image of the cruise
as well.
So the symptoms could just be transferred over to one, but I'm going to list through
what I was experiencing on this vehicle.
And it took me a minute to remember like the grouping of symptoms together was exactly
the same as the thing I dealt with.
As I was going through it, I'm like, something really seems familiar about this.
I remember, you know, this exact grouping of symptoms happening on another car.
And that's when I looked back in my notes and I was like, oh, that's right.
I got to look for a blank.
Here's what it was doing.
Here's why it's weird because this is a very strange combination of problems to
have no codes present anywhere in the vehicle indicating that there is something wrong
when there clearly is something wrong.
So first thing, the engine will start and run now.
It's strange the way that it does it in this application.
And this first one, actually, I don't recall on the Chevy cruise that I did.
So maybe there is a slight difference here, but I'm going off of what I saw
this week, maybe I did not note this detail back in 2020.
But when you went to start it, the engine would start.
However, this is a push button vehicle.
When you would release the push button, you could still hear the starter
dragging against the flex plate, the teeth on the flex plate.
Like it was still halfway engaged or like the drive pinion was still
rotating along with the flex plate, which it should not be once I release
that button. And, you know, now that I say that out loud,
I wonder if the cruise was a blade style key.
This was a push button.
Again, don't know that for sure, but I don't recall a starter dragging being the
issue, but this one was.
And then if you would hit the button again, the start button on the dash
for this Malbu, then it would stop, but the engine would continue to run.
OK, so then at that point, your engine is running and everything
seemingly OK at first, except for there is no power steering.
And this is electric steering.
Other things, and these take a little bit more work to notice that this is
the case, but I'm giving you a listing of symptoms that you can find on a car.
You can add these things up and you can say, I know exactly where to go.
So the other things that occur on the vehicle are you have no power steering.
The charging system does not work, or at least it doesn't charge
up to the level it's supposed to.
I didn't sit there long enough to see if the battery would discharge
completely, but it would sit at about 12 volts the entire time.
So I don't know if the alternator was doing anything.
I don't think it was, but it definitely wasn't charging where it needed to be.
It was at, you know, 12 volts, which was to be up over 14.
But we have no warning lights, we have no codes.
And on the cruise, I had mentioned, if you unplug the alternator
in that application, it would start, it would fall field and it would charge.
So the alternator was capable.
And funny enough on this Malbu, when I got to the shop,
they had been working on it for a while was the alternator had already been replaced.
So somebody had gone down that route.
I think they didn't mention that to me, but somebody had put a brand new
alternator in there, probably trying to fix this charging issue.
And when I looked at this, the cruise back in 2020, I thought that was my issue.
I'm like, Oh, okay.
Well, this is why the power steering doesn't work is because the system
voltage is not where it needs to be.
Well, turns out that is not the case.
There are other electrical signs on the vehicle as well.
The rear defrost and if it's equipped with heated seats, those do not operate.
You can press the button.
Nothing happens.
It does not allow you to operate those components.
And there is an idle surge.
So every 34 30 to 40 seconds, you would see the idle surge up, come back down.
Um, finally on this Malbu, if you were to put the transmission into gear,
then the engine would stall, but if you left it in park, it would run all
day long with a little idle surge here and there.
Um, but that would be it.
And again, scan it, no codes at all.
You can do this every single time.
And I tried to get a little history on the vehicle for this one to see, like,
had you guys, you know, done anything.
They didn't mention the alternator, like I said, um, but they did say
when the car had originally come in, what they ended up finding was
a broken camshaft.
Now again, this is a 1.5 liter and we have seen this many times where
the camshaft for the intake would break on the end.
Um, and so you would actually get a rotating camshaft enough to
where the engine runs.
Maybe you lose one cylinder.
Maybe you don't, depending on where the camshaft breaks, but it's
not moving the part of the camshaft that, uh, has the camshaft
sensor on it.
So you get a camshaft sensor code.
If you put a boroscope down in there, you can see that the, the
camshaft's broken and this is what they ended up finding on this one.
Five does happen on these.
They replaced the camshaft.
Um, but I have a feeling along the way they replaced another
component that they didn't mention and I'll get to that.
Um, cause that was what fixed this one.
Um, but that was the history.
Now I asked them, I was like, did this thing run, you know,
properly before this happened and they weren't sure they assume that it was,
but the customer brought it into them in a non running state.
So they never saw it run beforehand.
So anyways, who did what, uh, hard to say, but it's on me to figure it out.
But luckily I have this in my memory and I do have some stuff recorded
in a podcast forum.
This was before I did my, uh, like vehicle database notes that I
do pretty religiously now, um, like this event this week went into
there with all the details so that if this ever pops up again, myself
and my whole team have access to, to the combination of symptoms and
we go right to it and okay, it's podcast episode two.
So you can find it that way.
So what I ended up finding on this one, and I'm going to give you
my thoughts on it and I'm going to give you a real practical way to
identify that this is the problem.
Like if you run into it.
Now you might be the one working on it and that makes it a little
easier because you know exactly what you did or didn't do, but maybe
you're doing mobile, maybe you're taking care of this for someone else.
Uh, you've stepped into the situation after repairs have been done
like myself and you need to get to the solution quickly.
I'll give you a very practical, realistic way to determine that
this is your issue very quickly with very little testing.
Um, but what the issue is the crankshaft sensor on these vehicles.
Now, um, these are both auto stop, start vehicles, right?
They have the ability to shut off at a stop.
Um, when you put your foot on the brake, you lift your foot off
the brake and then it should restart and then you can start driving.
Now in the, uh, instance of the cruise back in 2020, there was
an option for that one for to either have, uh, auto stop, start
or not in the same like vehicle platform.
It depends on the trim level and what it was ordered.
Uh, the RPO code is KL nine.
Uh, if you're looking those up, you can tell if it's equipped or not.
You can look at the dashboard too, um, because there'll be a section
of the tachometer that has, uh, auto stop at the bottom.
If it's not equipped with that, you won't see that on the dash,
but you can look for that KL nine, uh, RPO code as well.
In the case of this Malibu this week, it did not appear to be an option.
Um, now I could be wrong, but from what I found, uh, especially looking
up parts that the 17 Malibu came only all 17 Malibus with this one five
came with the auto stop, start.
So you didn't have an option to not have this.
And that's the KL nine RPO code too.
Um, which makes it just a little bit more confusing, but the
crankshaft sensor is different for the Chevy cruise, depending on
if you have auto stop starter or if you don't, there's two different part
numbers.
So you can look this up on a 17 cruise with one four again, Malibu only lists
one, but what happened in the Chevy cruise was the shop had just changed
out the motor and when they changed the motor, they left the crankshaft
sensor in the donor engine as it was delivered to them, right?
They get an engine.
It's got a crankshaft sensor bolted into the block.
They throw that into the car and just plug it in and they go.
And then they have this problem after they get everything back together.
And that's where I went through and I found out and then I asked them,
I'm like, did you change the crankshaft sensor?
They said, no, so I was like, well, let's put in the original one.
We did that.
All of the problems are gone.
Okay.
So fast forward to now.
I'm thinking the same thing that, oh, okay.
You know, maybe there's an option for, um, auto stop versus not.
Again, it turns out there isn't.
And I was considering the work that they told me they did there.
They said they did a camshaft, not anything with a crankshaft, but this
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I use my phone and I reach down the backside of the motor and right underneath
the starter, you can't see it from the top.
But again, I just use the four or the like self facing camera on my phone.
I stuck it down in there with a light and I could see the crankshaft sensor.
You can reach it and touch it.
If you just reach below the starter with your hand, but I could see with my
phone, I could see is a brand new crankshaft sensor that's bolted up into
that block, right?
And so this is a, you know, eight year old vehicle.
You can definitely tell if the sensor is brand new or if it's been in there
for a while, this one's brand new.
And so that immediately, once I connected all the dots of the
symptoms that were going on, um, I knew that, okay, this is, we're
dealing with the same thing here.
Now, again, I'm not sure where this particular crankshaft sensor came
from or why it was changed, but odds are it's wrong.
So I'll get to the practical way that you can prove this out.
Um, and maybe some other ways that you could go about looking at this
that I didn't spend the time doing, but let me explain what's happening here.
There is a difference between the crankshaft sensors and it's the
sensors only actually, I did some research on this.
The tone wheel that is sandwiched between the flex plate in the back
of the crank, it is not different, right?
If I go back to that Chevy cruise, the one for the part number for
the tone wheel is the same between the auto stop, start version and
the non auto stop, start version.
It is the sensor that is a different part.
And that's why back on that Chevy cruise, we were able to just pop
the original sensor back in and it worked.
We didn't have to change the tone ring.
Um, at the time, I didn't quite understand it, but looking
up the parts and repair link, they don't change anything about the
tone wheel.
Now it's just a metal wheel with a magnetic strip on the outside,
but it can be used for both versions.
Again, in that Chevy cruise, in this Malibu, again, they only
have one version of this tone wheel and they only have one version
of the crankshaft sensor that you're supposed to buy for this one.
Um, but there is something different about the output of the crankshaft
sensors, the non auto stop versus this auto stop start that outputs
somewhat of a different signal as the engine's rotating.
So as far as I can find, um, and I looked into this as much as I
could and GM doesn't give a whole lot of specifics, but the main
difference between these sensors is that the stop start version can
output not only the, you know, position and the speed of the
crankshaft, but the direction of the crankshaft.
And there's some sites that list, you know, some details about
these types of sensors.
It may not be the exact one used in this GM, but that they have,
um, a series of hall effect elements within the tip of the
sensor and that way it can tell the direction that the
crankshaft rotated, particularly in an auto stop start event.
Right.
Because the engine comes to a stop and maybe it rotates back just
a hair as it comes, you know, it's coming to a complete stop.
And the engine computer wants to know the exact position of that
engine so that when you release your brake pedal, it can get
that thing started as soon as possible.
It wants to make it, or the goal of the system is to be
as seamless as possible to the driver.
So a lot of people don't like it, obviously, but they
tried their best to make it seamless and in order to know the
exact position of the crankshaft sensor, it's going to need to
know if it rolled back just a hair as it's coming to a stop so
that it can get the injectors and the coils firing as soon as
possible, as opposed to a normal start right after the vehicle
has been completely shut off, you might get a revolution or
two out of that engine before it figures out, okay, here's
the missing notch and okay, now we can start firing coils
and injectors at this point.
So you get a not an extended crank, but you get a longer crank
after a full shutdown versus one of these auto stop starts,
right. And so the sensor is the key piece of that in these
GMs does not appear to be the tone wheel.
The magnetic pieces of this tone wheel seem to be the same.
And they do note that this is one of those tone wheels that
you can't get near other metallic surfaces.
That it could ruin the tone wheel kind of like the ones on the
Mopar 3.6 liter camshafts, same thing, you can't set those on
a metal bench or set them near each other, they'll screw up the
tone wheel. They put the warning there on the parts listing
in repair link from GM. So they've obviously had some issues
with it and they make note like, hey, be careful with this
thing, careful where you set it or what you set it up
against. So it's a magnetic strip on here, the sensors
registering. But again, it appears to be the same in both
versions. Again, with Malbu, I only have one option. But when the
wrong sensor was put into that cruise, it was enough to allow
the engine to start and run. So again, the spacing the tone
wheel is the same and the sensors out putting something
enough for the engine computer to say, okay, hey, here's
the position of the crank, I'm going to fire the injector, I'm
going to fire the coil and the engine runs on this Malbu, you
could sit there and let it run all day. Yeah, it has a surge,
but it wasn't running poorly beyond that it was running just
fine. But what I believe is happening here is there's
something about the output of the crankshaft sensor that is
different between the auto stop star version, and the version
of sensor that is installed in both cases here, that the engine
computer does not fully recognize it as a successful start,
even though it's running the engine. And that's the weird
part. It's part I can't exactly explain what's happening in
the software. But it's, it will continue to run the engine.
Again, you put it into gear, and it will stall at that
point on this Malbu. But if you just let it sit there in
park, it will continue to run it. But I don't think the
engine computer is sending out over the bus like a successful
start. And I looked for some data pins and I could not find
anything that indicated it one way or another. I went into the
power mode settings of the BCM. And it just reflected the
state of the ignition switch and what it wanted the vehicle to
be at. There wasn't any indication of a load shedding
that I could find in the electrical management. Now I
bet might be missing something. And I didn't waste too much
time here and I'll explain why. But there's got to be something
that is broadcast from the engine control module to the rest of
the modules, power steering and BCM definitely appear to be
two of the important ones that puts it in a state like if the
engine wasn't running, right? The electric power steering not
operational, the alternator not charging correctly, the rear
defrost in the heated seats. Now those should work if your
key is just on. But what about in, you know, like some sort of
cranking state or something like that is a very strange state
that the vehicle is in. And again, not sending any codes
either. So this must be some default method that it sends
out to the network for it to be in this state. And it's
just weird that it gets here. But it'll continue to allow
the engine to run. Anyways, very strange. I don't have all the
explanations for it. But I know this is how the symptoms present
themselves exactly. So here's what I did. Instead of scoping
the crank pattern, which might be interesting, I'm sure you're
going to see a difference there. Honestly, it's more that's
more of an interesting and not critical for me to understand
because there's an easier way to determine this. Data Pids,
maybe I could find something if I dug through it and looked at
it really closely. Again, not super important because there's
a more practical way to do this. Here's how you do this. If you
have these symptoms, right, I'm going to run through it again.
Start or dragging after you hit the start button and you've
got to press the button again to get it to stop. The power
steering is inoperative. The charging voltage is fixed at
12. Your rear defrost and your heated seats don't work and
your idle surges up and down. And it stalls when you put
it into gear. You have all of that. You have no codes in the
system. Here's what you do. Shut the vehicle off, reach down to
the crankshaft sensor and unplug it. Go back in, start the vehicle
up. It will give you an extended crank. It will start. It
will set a code for the crankshaft sensor, but it will run
off of the camshafts, which a lot of vehicles nowadays can
do. They can completely run without a crankshaft
signal. Now you'll get an extended crank. Maybe it won't
be running that great. Maybe you can't go drive it around, but
it'll start and it'll run off the camshafts. There's enough
position information off of modern camshaft tone wheels so
that the engine computer can figure out where the engine is
and run the engine. Now again, you'll have a code, but
here's the thing. Here's how this is getting you to the
answer that this is what you're dealing with. All of that
other stuff, all of those other symptoms are now gone.
Okay, you got a code for the crankshaft sensor, your
check engine lights on, but your power steering works. Your
charging system is operating correctly. You can use the heated
seats. You can use the rear defrost. You can put the car
into gear. The idle thing, I don't know, I guess they didn't
pay attention to whether we're surging or not. You don't
have a crank sensor, so it's not going to be perfect, but it
eliminates all of that other stuff that you were dealing
with. And why? Because you've taken the bad input away
from the ECM. Now you've removed the input completely. So
it's going to have to go into a different default state, but
there's a difference between no crankshaft signal at all and a
pattern that must confuse it enough to not exactly know what
state that it's in. But if you do that, and you get rid of all
those symptoms, you know, you have to go after that
crankshaft sensor 100%. I don't care if you can see that it
was changed or not. The next time I get this grouping of
symptoms on one of these GM cars, I'm just gonna unplug the
sensor. Does the rest of that go away? Okay, you guys need to
change the sensor. Or in this case, we yanked it out, we
looked at it. Now, I did talk to him. He's like, yeah, we
ordered that from, it was, I don't know, aftermarket or
Riley's AutoZone, something like that. He's like, they didn't
have an option for, you know, an auto stop start. I was
like, well, maybe ask around a couple other places. And
from my research after the fact, he's correct, they only
list one. But I told him, maybe get a GM sensor or, you
know, AC Delco or whoever makes the OE sensor for this, you
might want to go that way. And I think that's what they did. And
that resolved the problem. And in this case, I don't know, that
sensor that was in there, did they just give them the wrong
one? Is there variants in aftermarket parts? I know there
is, right? We deal with failed or inaccurate aftermarket
electrical components all the time. So whether it was wrong
or just bad or for something else, I have no idea. Doesn't
matter in this case, because again, that it exhibited the same
symptoms as that cruise from five years ago. So final point
on this, I mean, again, you get a real practical way to get to
the solution fast on one of these. And this is the type of
problem that can really throw somebody for a loop if you're
not aware of this, because it's a very strange situation. So
you've got that. But the other thing that I'm always
preaching about on this show, and I encourage everybody to do
because it's now easier than ever to do this is to document
this stuff for yourself, right? Now, could I have remembered
that? Hey, I had this really weird Chevy cruise and it was
this. Oh, let's look at the crank sensor. Sure. But like to
have all of the details down to the specific things like
an idle surge documented five years later for me to listen
to, that's huge. That is so incredibly powerful. So again,
like always, I encourage you to record stuff like this, things
that you learn along the day on the job, the details, the
little stuff like there should be 2.5 volts on this circuit,
not 4.2 in this situation, or, you know, a pulsing voltage
comes from this module on this circuit, and that's normal
in this case, right? That sort of stuff. And I have the
episodes on utilizing AI where you can just blab into it, you
get it to output a really nice formatted version of all the
details that you want, and then put it in your storage
location of choice, you know, a Google Drive, an external
hard drive, whatever you want, write it down in a notebook if
you want to, it's just the tools now to record capture
what you're doing. It's so easy to do. And I don't know
why you wouldn't be doing it. So this is just an example of
that where I had dealt with a problem before the experience is
obviously key to that you're out there doing your learning, but
then capturing that so that you can refer back to it later.
This made this diagnosis like a snap, like I moved through
this one very, very quickly. But this is the type of
diagnosis that you can charge really good money for,
because this shop, I don't know how much money they spent, you
know, trying to resolve this problem that I think they
actually built it in by replacing the sensor. I'm guessing
they probably did it. The tech was, he was a little bit
flustered when he when I showed him the sensor. I think
they may have done it when they were attempting to fix the
original camshaft sensor issue because a non moving camshaft
just on the end is kind of a weird problem. I'm guessing he
didn't say that straight out, but I wasn't going to press him. It
doesn't matter to me who replaced it. That's the fix. But again,
to have all that information on hand, and I blew right through
that one and made a decent amount of money off it too. So that's
all I got for today. I want to say thank you to everybody
for listening. With that all the way, let's get out there,
start fixing the world one car at a time.
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