Automotive Diagnostic Podcast Feb 8, 2026

338: TDC-ish

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Term

2.5 liter engine

A 2.5-liter engine is a type of engine that has a total cylinder volume of 2.5 liters. It's a common size for four-cylinder engines, offering a good mix of power and fuel economy.

Term

timing chain

A timing chain helps keep the engine parts moving in sync. It connects two important parts, the crankshaft and the camshaft, to make sure everything works together properly.

Part

harmonic balancer

A harmonic balancer helps keep the engine running smoothly by reducing vibrations. It's attached to the crankshaft and helps prevent shaking that can cause damage over time.

Part

crankshaft

The crankshaft is a part of the engine that helps turn the up-and-down movement of the pistons into spinning motion, which makes the car move.

Part

camshafts

Camshafts are parts of the engine that help open and close the valves, allowing air and fuel in and exhaust out. They need to work in sync with the crankshaft for the engine to run properly.

Term

piston position

Piston position is where the pistons are located in the engine at any moment. This affects how well the engine runs and how much power it produces.

Term

valve position

Valve position is whether the engine's valves are open or closed. This is important for letting air and fuel in and exhaust out, which keeps the engine running smoothly.

Term

EcoBoost

EcoBoost engines are Ford's special engines that use turbocharging to make them more powerful while using less fuel. They help cars go faster without wasting gas.

Term

timing problem

A timing problem happens when the parts that control when the engine's valves move are not working correctly. This can cause the engine to run poorly or stop working altogether.

Car

The Ford Escape is a small SUV that’s great for people who need extra space but don’t want a big vehicle. The 2013 version is known for being good on gas and having some nice tech features, which makes it a popular option for everyday driving.

Term

timing tools

Timing tools help mechanics make sure that parts of the engine are in the right position when they are being worked on. This is important to keep the engine running smoothly.

Term

head gasket

A head gasket is a part of the engine that keeps oil and coolant from leaking into each other. If it gets damaged, it can cause big problems for the engine.

Term

P130D

P130D is a code that your car's computer uses to signal there's something wrong with how the engine is running. It usually means the engine isn't firing correctly, which can lead to poor performance.

Term

engine knock

Engine knock is a noise that happens in the engine when the fuel burns at the wrong time. It can cause problems with how well the engine runs.

Term

DTC

DTC means Diagnostic Trouble Code. It's a code that tells you if there's a problem with the car's engine or other parts, helping mechanics figure out what's wrong.

Term

spark plug

A spark plug is a small part in the engine that helps start the car by creating a spark. If it's broken, the car might not run well.

Term

ignition coil

An ignition coil is a part that helps make the spark that starts the engine. If it doesn't work right, the engine can have trouble running.

Term

fuel injector

A fuel injector is a part that sprays fuel into the engine to help it run. If it doesn't work well, the car might use more gas or not run smoothly.

Term

PCM

PCM means Powertrain Control Module. It's the car's computer that helps control how the engine and transmission work together for better performance.

Term

spark knock

Spark knock is when the fuel in your engine ignites at the wrong moment, which can reduce power and damage the engine. It often happens with poor-quality fuel or bad timing settings.

Term

detonation

Detonation is when the fuel in your engine ignites too early, which can make a knocking noise and harm the engine. It usually happens if the fuel isn't right or if the engine timing is off.

Term

TSP

TSP means Technical Service Bulletin, which is a notice from car makers to repair shops about problems with certain cars and how to fix them. It helps mechanics know what to look for.

Term

accelerate

Accelerating is when you press the gas pedal to make the car go faster. It's important for driving smoothly and getting good performance from the car.

Term

engine ping

Engine ping is a noise that happens when the fuel in your car's engine ignites too early. It sounds like marbles shaking and can be bad for the engine if it happens a lot.

Term

idle surge

Idle surge happens when the engine's RPM goes up and down while the car is not moving. It can be caused by problems with parts that control how much air and fuel go into the engine.

Part

throttle body

The throttle body helps control how much air goes into the engine when you press the gas pedal. If it doesn't work right, it can cause problems with how the engine runs.

Term

mass airflow sensor

A mass airflow sensor helps the engine know how much air is coming in so it can mix the right amount of fuel. If it doesn't work right, the engine might not run well or could stall.

Part

starter

The starter is a part of the car that helps start the engine. If it doesn't work properly, the car might not start when you turn the key.

Term

battery voltage issue

A battery voltage issue happens when the battery doesn't have enough power to start the car. This can make it hard for the engine to turn over when you try to start it.

Term

scan tool

A scan tool is like a computer for cars that helps find problems by checking the car's internal systems. It shows error messages that tell mechanics what might be wrong.

LIVE

Welcome to the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast.

We're going to explore ways to sharpen our diagnostic skills, find learning resources, and hear from

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Hey, what's going on Automotive World, welcome to another episode of the Automotive Diagnostic

Podcast.

My name is Sean Tipping.

I'll be your host once again for this week's episode.

Thank you so much for joining me.

I've got another case study for you.

This one's pretty interesting.

I've actually seen this a couple times now and so the second time around it did allow

me to identify what the problem was a little bit quicker, but putting the two together, it

creates something for me where this can happen.

Now it's unlikely to happen, but definitely possible.

So you'll see what I mean as I explain this.

It's a man made problem that creates an issue on specific Ford four cylinder engines.

Now in this case, they were both 2013 Ford escapes with 2.5 liter engines and there's

a reason that that's important and I don't know if this is the only application where

it can happen or at least happen this way, but oddly enough, they were a few years apart.

The first one I ran across was at least a couple of years ago.

I didn't keep the greatest notes back then, but I did have a note about it and

I do remember the vehicle and then we just dealt with one over the last week as well.

So I'll set you up here and I might give away exactly what's going on and you may have seen

similar issues with these particular four cylinders or ones like it, but again, this presents

itself in a very unique way because the failure happens in a unique way.

So you're probably familiar with the Ford four cylinder engines that have nothing keyed

for the timing components between the crankshaft and the camshaft.

So what I mean by that is if you consider the crankshaft and the sprocket that drives

the timing chain that is on the front of the crankshaft, there is no key there, right?

It slides over the front of the crank, has the sprockets that engage the chain, but you

can rotate that sprocket 360 degrees on the crankshaft if you wanted to.

And same thing on the camshafts.

They are not keyed to the sprockets on the top of the camshaft.

In order to get these to lock together, you're going to bolt down either the phasers

or the bolt for the harmonic balancer.

Another important thing, the harmonic balancer is also not keyed to the crankshaft.

So most of us have run across this in one form or another.

If you've been doing Ford four cylinder timing, they've had this set up for a long time on

a number of engines.

I mean, this is going back to the mid 2000s.

There's a kit that you use for timing on these vehicles.

And for the timing chain ones specifically, these are the ones where we see issues where

anytime that that crank bolt is removed or loosened, you have the potential to mess with

the timing on the engine in a number of different ways, right?

And I've seen different failures on these engines, whether it be the camshafts are

not held in place by the bar correctly, or the crankshaft is not held incorrectly by the

pin that locks it in place, or the balancer was not timed properly when it was put back

on.

Now, the reluctor or the tone ring for the crankshaft sensor is on the harmonic balancer.

So the computer's reference for where the crankshaft is, is off of how that harmonic

balancer is put into place, right?

So unfortunately, with nothing being keyed, the crank sprocket, the camshafts, the balancer,

you can screw this up in a number of different ways if you're not using the proper tools,

or maybe you're not even aware that this is the case and you're just taking the balancer

off for one reason or another.

Again, once that bolt is loose, then you could change the timing between the crankshaft

and the camshafts and the slippage or the movement occurs at the crank, because the crank can

move and then the sprocket can't.

So essentially, if you were to, let's say you did have marks on the sprocket and on

the camshafts, they would still be in time, right?

The chain didn't jump, but the crankshaft slipped in reference to the sprocket.

So if you look at where the piston position is, compared to the valve position, they're

going to be off from where they're supposed to be, right?

And again, we've seen this.

If you've been in the field for a while, especially if you're doing mobile and you're going into

shops that have maybe done a repair, the way that we would see this quite often is a shop

would remove and replace an engine, and they'd take the balancer off in order to clear

the engine going in and out of the engine bay, very common, and they weren't aware

or they just didn't do the timing portion, and then either the balancer went on incorrectly

and then again, the computer's referencing the wrong spots or maybe you just have timing

codes or sometimes if the engine's rotated while the crankshaft bolt is loose, then again, your

difference in timing occurs between the piston and the valves, okay?

So again, this is pretty widely known.

This isn't anything really special if you go on Identifix, you see this, you know,

if you type in timing for one of these engines, you'll see that this is a very common thing

to happen because of the way that they have these engines set up, and this is on a number

of different Ford four-cylinder engines, some Mazda ones as well, 2.0, 2.3, 2.5, I think

the 1.5 and the 1.6 are going to be the same thing as well, the EcoBoost versions,

and they have a kit, then you take a plug out on the back side of the crankcase, you put a

pin in there, you rotate the engine clockwise, it locks the crank into place, you take the

valve cover off, you're going to put a bar that goes across the back of the camshafts

and then you'll tighten everything up at that point, and then you do have to position

that balancer in the correct spot, there's a little mark on the front of the timing

cover that allows you to put that balancer back in the same spot.

So then everything's in time, and again, I'm sure many of you have done these jobs before,

whether it be just a front cover, or you're actually doing the timing, just taking the

balancer off, whatever it is, you need to be aware.

And I will tell you, both shops that I dealt with for these 13 Ford Escapes were also aware

of this, right?

I've come in before other places and they weren't even aware or didn't know when

they took their balancer off that these things could happen and that's just a

matter of telling them about it and then they figured that out.

But these two shops were not only aware, but they had the tooling, they used the

tooling and they still ended up with issues.

But the issue is a little bit tougher to, number one, even identify that it is a

timing problem, but then to figure out why, okay?

Now again, same thing, same vehicle, same engine.

So it's possible that the configuration does matter here.

I don't know, I'm sure it could happen on other engine platforms, on other engine

sizes, but I'll explain this one and at least you can consider it if you run

into a situation on a different Ford.

But this is again, the 2.5 liter.

And what's also important to note is in a Ford Escape, especially a 13, but

this is true of a lot of different ones, you have different engine options for

that particular year, okay?

In that 2013, I think you could have a 1.6, 2.0 or a 2.5 depending on the trim level.

Okay, they're all four cylinder engines, but of course those are different engines.

And the timing tools that you are going to use are slightly different.

So we'll talk about that.

But in both cases, these were a 2.5.

Now, I'll give you the reason why I was called into the first one.

And the shop had mentioned that they did, I think they did head gaskets.

Or head gasket on that one.

It was a major injury repair where they had the timing apart.

And they did tell me about that and they said ever since, we're getting this code,

which is a P130D and I think there were some notes about they didn't think it

was running quite right.

Again, this was a couple of years ago.

I don't have all the notes.

I did write down that code and what that code pertains to.

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Is engine knock combustion performance, since the DTC sets when the knock

sensor voltage has exceeded a maximum value greater than the calibrated number of

times within a set period.

They give you a bunch of possible causes, poor fuel quality, base engine concerns,

damaged spark plug, looser corroded connector on the ignition coil.

Lean fuel injector, long fuel trim, lean limits, positive crank case,

system is leaking or stuck open, oil and maintenance, beyond recommended intervals.

Charge air cooler restriction or damage PCM.

So kind of a random list of things that really to me indicates like,

hey, there could be detonation or spark knock or pinging in that engine.

And that might be what's setting this P130D.

There is a TSP for vehicle of the same year with 1.6 liter that

has you check some grounds on the engine, but this again was 2.5.

Didn't apply to this one.

And I dug into this one and what I ended up finding, and

this was really the clue for me to dig deeper into what the root cause was,

was that if you would accelerate this engine, meaning you just do, and

it wasn't even like a full snap throttle, I'm not going all the way to the floor.

But I'm just giving the accelerator a little tap.

And this took me a while to find this, you know, I was driving the engine.

I was trying to get this code to set, really, is what I was trying to do is like,

okay, how do I get this code to set?

Because if it just sat there idling, it wouldn't set.

You'd have to go drive it.

And it wasn't super consistent, but it would pop up every once in a while.

But if you gave it a little quick bump of the accelerator,

you would hear the engine ping or detonate that marbles in the combustion

chamber noise that you hear.

And it's real brief, and it's just on acceleration, but

I was able to get it to do it consistently.

And I'm not going to say that I jumped right to the conclusion on this one.

It took a lot of looking at this vehicle, and then also talking to the shop

in order to figure out what's wrong.

But I'm not going to spoil that one yet.

You could probably see where this is going.

But let me fast forward to this last week, because I can give you some more

details on my entire thought process and how I work through it.

Now, of course, having the conclusion to the one that I saw a couple years ago

definitely did help.

And that got me to where I needed to be sooner with a little bit more confidence.

And it had me ask the correct questions.

And that's really the important part if you're coming in as the second party

to this repair.

You didn't actually do the work.

You will maybe know what questions to ask if you've dealt with it before.

So anyways, fast forward, same vehicle 2013 Ford Escape 2.5 liter.

We actually got called for a different symptom.

And this vehicle did not have code P130D setting.

At least it did not set for us.

And the shop didn't mention its setting.

But the symptoms ended up leading towards the same place.

And I'll explain how.

So what they called us for was that after you start this thing

and let it get hot, particularly after you drive it, the idle would surge,

especially after you restarted it.

OK, so this was the scenario.

They go out, they drive it around.

And then you'd shut it off, go in the store, come back out.

You would start the vehicle up.

And the idle would go up to about 2,000.

And then it would come down like it should.

But it would go all the way down to like 500 RPM, sometimes even lower.

And sometimes it would just stall out.

And that was the symptom that was noticed by the customer, the driver of the vehicle

that brought this vehicle back to them.

Now, they did mention that they had done a transmission on this engine recently.

But they also said, and this was because their customer told them

that this symptom was present prior to doing the transmission.

But the shop's involved with the car and they're trying to get it fixed.

But they said it was prior to the transmission.

It was still doing this.

But the customer wants this resolved to figure out why it's doing this.

Now, there are no codes in this vehicle.

Now, so we get in there, that's really all we have on this is that,

hey, we changed transmission and that we have this idle surge going on.

And so at first when I got there, I looked at it in the bay.

And again, no codes on this thing.

Seems to be running great.

Field trims are spot on.

There's no idle learn procedure on this vehicle.

Oh, I should also mention that the shop had replaced the throttle body already.

And this did not take care of anything.

I think they had tried a number of different things as well.

But nothing really seemed to change this.

When I was looking at it first in the bay, I was not able to duplicate it,

even though we got the engine hot.

It didn't seem to do it for me.

I could shut it off, start it.

It would do the thing where it comes up and then comes back down.

And I was looking at desired idle.

And there's a number of datapids you

can look at for throttle control and desired RPM and all that stuff.

And I didn't really see anything out of place.

And then we were talking, I was like, oh, I should go drive this thing

and see if I can get it to act up.

Because he's like, it's very consistent.

If we go out, drive it, park it, and try to restart it.

So I did that.

And I was able to get this thing to duplicate.

So after driving it, and it didn't have to drive it far,

I would come back to the shop, kind of just go around the block,

come back to the shop, shut it off, wait 20 seconds, restart it.

RPM would come up, and then it would settle,

and it would chug right around 500.

And I did that a few times.

And then eventually, I did get it to stall once or twice.

And I'm watching it as this is happening to see,

is there something going on at the mass airflow center?

Again, is it throttle related?

Are my fuel trims off for any reason?

Maybe a PCV problem, something like that?

I wasn't able to really pinpoint anything that was wrong.

But here's the one thing that I

did notice while I was doing this.

So there's lots of restarting of the vehicle.

And it wasn't every time, but it was frequent enough

when I was trying to start the vehicle.

I actually even noticed this in the shop as well

before I drove it.

It seemed like the starter would just stop at times.

Like I was cranking on it, and it would just go, rah.

And then you let off the key, and you try again,

and then it would crank, and it would be fine.

And at first, I didn't really think a whole lot of it,

but it was pretty consistent.

And here's what I was thinking.

This was my thought process in the moment,

and I just want to share that.

I'm wondering if, oh, is this maybe a battery voltage issue

or a issue where there's a ground to the block,

excessive resistance or something like that?

And my thought was, I need to go look for this,

is the voltage or the battery voltage to the PCM dropping

out during this crank?

And it's causing it to reset its idle learn.

And I was like, well, maybe that's what's going on here,

is it needs to figure out the idle learn,

and it's automatic, but it happens every time that it's

reset, right?

That was kind of my thought.

I don't know, maybe a stretch, but I

did notice that that starter kept just stopping.

And when that happened, the battery voltage

would actually drop.

I'm looking at it on the scan tool, and it would drop out.

So I'm like, OK, I've also seen a lot of problems

with ground connections on these Ford vehicles.

It's over on the driver's side frame, where the cable attaches.

There's a painted surface.

And here's the other thing.

When somebody pulls a transmission out,

they usually take these cables off.

And I've seen power steering be no communication.

I've seen no crank situations where you just

have to clean up the ground under the air box here.

And so I'm going to do a voltage drop measurement.

And the starter dropout happened consistently enough

where I'm like, OK, I can set up my voltage drop measurement

and see is this what's actually happening here.

Because on the scan tool, I see the voltage drop down

to eight, nine volts when this happens real briefly, right?

But I see it happen.

OK, let's just confirm that this is where I'm going.

I also, when I'm setting up my measurement,

so basically I'm just going between engine block

and the negative post of the battery

to see what the drop is.

I did look under the air box and you

can see one of these grounds without pulling the air box out.

And it looked like somebody had been in there

and cleaned this one up.

So I'm like, OK, well, they've been after it.

It doesn't mean it's not a problem.

But usually it's the painted surface

that is a problem on one of these.

Maybe they're not tight enough.

I don't know.

But I'm going to do my measurement,

confirm there's a voltage drop before I pull stuff apart

and start fixing anything.

So I do this.

And I get it to happen, right?

It's consistent enough where I crank on this thing

and the starter stops.

And when this happens, this was not a voltage drop problem.

This is also not a battery problem.

This battery is in great shape, ran the test on it,

and the shop said they had recently replaced it as well.

This was not a battery problem.

This was not a starter problem.

This was not a voltage drop problem.

When the starter stopped, it was

because the starter was pushing on something

that it could no longer move.

The starter was being stopped in its tracks.

And the amperage of the starter skyrocketed at that point,

as a starter does when it stops moving.

And the voltage drop was this huge load

from the starter on the battery.

And as soon as you load off the key,

the voltage come back up.

So that ruined my theory of there

being some sort of voltage drop in the system

affecting the PCM.

Now I'm wondering, what is stopping the starter?

Okay.

And as I'm listening to this, as I'm happening,

I'm like, this sounds like the timing is advanced, right?

For those of us that have been in the industry

for a long time, if you did like distributor timing.

And you don't even have to go back that far,

but that was the most common.

When you would advance the ignition timing

with the distributor too much, as you're cranking,

you'd come up, that spark happens too early,

you've got combustion as the starter

is still pushing the piston up on that compression stroke,

it'll stop it right in its tracks, right?

The starter can't push against combustion

that's expanding gases downwards towards it.

And you get a, and that's what was happening.

That's what I, once I connected the dots there,

I'm like, oh, okay, this is a timing issue.

This is interesting that this is happening.

So now I'm looking at this whole thing

a little bit differently.

And I am moving away from the whole idle searching

and installing issue, but I'm like,

this is a problem here, okay?

So then at this point I stop, I go back in,

I talk to the shop, I'm like,

hey, here's the things I'm noticing right now.

Did you guys take the balancer off of this thing?

Cause that's immediately where my mind went to,

is like, oh, okay, the timing might be off

on this vehicle here, even though there's no timing codes

and I'll explain why, but I was like,

did you guys take the balancer off

when you did the transmission?

And he's like, no, I don't think so.

I don't think we needed to do that.

I forget what he said, but they may have dropped

the whole thing down and then taking the transmission off.

But they said we didn't take that off.

And the technician was standing there

who was working on it.

He's like, yeah, I didn't do, take the balancer off,

but we did do a front cover on it about six months ago.

And that was to reseal a leaking front cover.

I'm like, okay, so you guys did have the balancer off

at some point.

And he's like, yeah, but we used the tools.

We have the tools, the peg that goes into the crankshaft

to lock it, the bar that goes across the camshafts.

And I'm like, okay, all right, I hear you.

But right now I see something that's pointing

towards the timing issue

because I hear that starter hitting.

And then this is also when I mentioned,

and I love how this goes.

This is always the way it is.

You get more parts to the story

as you ask more question.

He's like, yeah, we've warrantied that starter out

like two or three times, it keeps failing.

I was like, yeah, I bet you it does.

Whether it's actually failed, you know,

or if it's getting hammered by the advanced timing

or it's just a perceived failure of the starter.

I don't know, but they have warrantied

this starter out a few times.

Probably because this issue has been occurring

since they did the front cover seal.

And that's the important part here

is the balancer was off

and it did happen to be this shop that did it,

just not in the last transmission repair.

But prior to that they had noted

that this symptom was there, you know,

prior to the transmission.

Anyways, I'm like, okay, let me go confirm a few things here

and then I will let you guys know what to do.

But I suspect this is a timing issue.

Now again, there's no codes

and they said there's no timing codes in this thing.

And I agree with you,

there are no timing codes in this thing.

If you were to use a scope and do a cam crank

correlation on a Pico or whatever scope you use,

it would be dead nuts on, it would be perfect.

You would not see an issue.

I still suspect the timing is off on this one,

but there's a few more things I can do

to help confirm this.

So going back to my original vehicle that I looked at

that my symptom I was tracking on that one

was detonation, was pinging, was the spark knock.

I was like, I wonder if I can get it

to do it on this vehicle.

Now, if you mentioned I give the light tap of the throttle

to that first vehicle and I could hear it,

I did that to this vehicle

and it may have been doing it before

and I just wasn't noticing it

because it's not super pronounced.

But if you know what detonation sounds like

in an engine, which most of us do,

if you haven't Google it,

you can hear the detonation noise, right?

Again, the way I was very first explained the noise

was marbles in the combustion chamber

and that's kind of what stuck with me.

But if I gave this vehicle a slight tap

in acceleration every single time I could hear it ping, right?

Just that little bit of spark knock,

I could hear that every single time

that I tapped on the throttle.

Now again, I didn't have the code in this one,

the P130D, that was not setting,

but I for sure heard this every single time

that I tapped the throttle.

So that little piece was actually enough

for me to have them check something

and to interrogate them a little bit more

about the procedure on the timing.

So I'll explain why that was enough for me to go into this

and I'll also give you a few other tests

that you could do to prove this out.

But for me, this was enough that I could get it to do that

and I could show them, right?

I could show them, look, that starter,

look at the amperage on the starter,

it's hitting something, it's stopping in its tracks

and then listen to it, you can hear that detonation,

this is what we need to do.

So the first vehicle what we ended up getting to

after a lot of messing around was,

hey, this problem wasn't there

before you guys did the head gasket,

you guys may have done something wrong with the timing

because the spark knock, right, the pinging,

there's a lot of reasons that could cause it

but one of them is the ignition timing

happening at the wrong time.

How does that happen?

Well, if the computer is referencing

where the crankshaft is and firing the spark plug

in reference to where it thinks the crankshaft is

but the piston is actually in a different position

in reference to the camshafts,

then you have the potential

for having abnormal combustion or spark knock.

So we talked it through with the shop

and I was questioning whether or not they use the tools

and if they use them correctly

but what it ended up being on that vehicle

was not that they didn't use the tools

or that they didn't use them correctly,

they used the wrong tools

and specifically they used the wrong crankshaft pin.

Okay, so on the backside of the block,

you take a plug out, you put this pin in

and then you rotate the engine clockwise until it stops

and what this pin does is it just hits the counterweight

on the crankshaft and it stops it in the TDC position.

I think it's for cylinder number one, right?

And so you just rotate it lightly clockwise and it stops.

Now you can rotate the engine

counterclockwise at that point

but the pin is gonna stop that crankshaft

in a very specific spot.

But if you use the wrong crankshaft pin

and this is the whole thing, the whole key to this episode,

if you use the wrong pin,

it will stop the crankshaft in a different spot

and it will thread in.

There's, I'm sure there's pins

because there's several different pins

depending on which engine that you are working on.

Again, that's the important part

but it is going to be a different length pin.

Some of them may have different threads

and then of course you would realize right away,

like, oh, this is not going to thread into this hole

but in this particular situation, it threads in.

It feels like, yep, this is the correct one

but the pin is actually longer

than the one that you're supposed to have in this engine

and what that essentially does

is when the crankshaft comes around,

you're rotating it clockwise

and that pin is going to intersect the counterweight.

It intersects it at an earlier point

because the pin is longer

and it stops that crankshaft in a,

I guess you could say retarded position

in reference to the camshafts.

Now, you feel like it's locked in place

because you've done these before and you rotate it

and it feels like it, okay, it hit the pin,

I can feel it.

Now I'm going to put that bar in my camshafts.

I'm going to install the timing chain

and then I'm going to line up my balancer

where it's supposed to be, put everything together.

Good to go.

Computer's happy because the reluctor on the tone wheel

and the camshafts, they are in sync.

You could use a picoscope, you could scope it

and it would be right on the money.

It would show that, hey, the timing's there.

The computer's happy where the timing is

but the computer is using the crankshaft reluctor

on the balancer to fire the spark plug.

But when it's firing the spark plug

and it thinks the piston is in one position,

it's actually behind slightly, I don't know how many degrees.

It's a small amount but it's enough to affect this

that essentially what you're doing

is advancing the ignition time

in reference to where the piston actually is.

And so you've got combustion already happening

as that piston is coming up.

Again, it's only by a few degrees

and so it's not like this is a no start.

If it was off far enough,

you would have major performance issues

but I think we're only talking a few degrees of rotation

in the wrong direction but it can cause the symptoms

that we are experiencing with these vehicles.

Now, why they weren't exactly the same, I don't know

but I do know that the issue was the same,

that the wrong crankshaft pin had been used

to lock it in place.

So like I mentioned, the shop did the timing procedure

correctly as far as the book goes.

And if you're used to doing these engines

and you feel it stops in one spot, okay, we're good.

And then that's the other problem

that I have is a mobile tech coming in

and say, hey, you didn't do the process right.

They're like, no man, I've done a lot of these.

I know that it was perfect.

And so once I got to that point with this shop,

I told them, okay, here's what's going on.

You guys need to check the kit that you're using

to see if you're using the right pin.

And so they were gonna do that the next day.

They actually did.

They put the back together and they were like,

it's right on the money

because I don't think they quite understood

what I was saying is that there's different length pins

but I talked to them a little bit more.

I'm like, send me a picture of the pin

that you're using, okay?

And then like, if there's part numbers on it,

let's do that and they did.

And it's an OTC kit that has the timing components for this.

And if you look it up,

it lists that there are components within the kit

that work for the 2.5 liter of this year.

But if you look on the chart of this OTC kit,

which many of you might have this kit,

it's a very common one

that you could probably buy off of Amazon.

The bar for the cams lists for this engine.

In this OTC kit, there is no crank pin

for this 2.5 liter in a 2013.

There are pins that go up to 2012 for a different 2.5,

I think it's a hybrid.

And the pin with the part number on it,

they sent us a part number on the pin,

matches up with other Ford Escape engines

of the same year, right?

So a 2.0, it'll work in a 2013 Ford Escape

but not a 2.5.

There is a different length pin

and you can look up the rotunda number for this pin

and doing a little bit of digging,

you can actually determine the length of the pin,

which is what we did.

We had them measure the pin,

we sent them the part number for the rotunda Ford pin

that is supposed to be in there

and you could clearly see there is a difference

in length for the pin.

So they just had to get the correct pin,

which is what the previous shop had to do as well.

I think the previous shop had the right pin,

they just used the wrong one.

And then it positioned the engine in the correct spot

and then everything was good to go.

So if you have one of those OTC timing kits

for these Ford four cylinder engines,

you definitely want to pay very close attention

to which pin you're using

because like I say, this one even lists for a 2.5,

just a 2.5 of a different year.

And it lists for that vehicle of that year

but with a different engine.

So and it threads into the block, that's the other thing.

It's not like it doesn't fit or had to be modified

or was used incorrectly.

It goes into that threaded hole in the block

and it stops the crank,

it just stops it in a different position.

But you get a very strange issue

because you have no timing codes and subtle symptoms

because it's only off by a few degrees.

So how else could you diagnose this

if you were getting into it?

The other two tests that you could use

is a relative compression test with a spark sink

and you would be able to tell

that the ignition timing is advanced

because the computer is using the crank position

or it's perceived crank position

in order to fire the plug.

But in reality, where the piston is,

your starter current is gonna show

the real mechanical position

and the spark is gonna happen

where the computer thinks it is.

So you're gonna see that the spark line

moved to the left if you're looking at the mountain peak

of the current that's gonna go up

as the piston's coming up on the compression stroke.

You'll see that spark line be to the left.

Now it might not be a huge amount

but that's one way you might be able to catch this.

The other one that would probably be the most accurate

and I didn't actually do this on this one

would be an in-cylinder waveform

because not only would you be able to see

where the spark timing is happening in reference to TDC

but you could also see the valve vents

and you could compare them to a known good

and that would be also enough to say here, look,

your valve timing is off on this engine

even though the computer thinks that it's in time.

So just wanted to share that with everybody.

I thought it was pretty interesting

the way that this occurred

and just a note to everybody out there,

if you're doing these jobs on these Fords

to pay attention to which tools you're using

and which engine, because they have so much variation

and so many different combinations

where something strange like this can happen.

So that's all I got for this one.

Hopefully you found that interesting,

learned something from that

but other than that, we're gonna get out there,

start fixing the world one car at a time.

["The Star-Spangled Banner Theme Song"]

0:00

37:25

338: TDC-ish

2.5 liter engine

timing chain

harmonic balancer

crankshaft

camshafts

piston position

valve position

EcoBoost

timing problem

Ford Escape

timing tools

head gasket

P130D

engine knock

DTC

spark plug

ignition coil

fuel injector

PCM

spark knock

detonation

TSP

accelerate

engine ping

idle surge

throttle body

mass airflow sensor

starter

battery voltage issue

scan tool

About this episode

Original notes