AAH #712 - Car Critics Consider Cars, Trucks and Utes

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Speaker 2: Hello everyone, thank you for joining us on another episode of Auto Line After Hours. John is not here today.

He is learning even more about partraying. That's a frightening

thought I know for many of you. But he is

learning more about partraying. That said, I've got a panel

here of like three of the smartest guys in Detroit. Okay,

three of the smartest guys in the auto industry. Let's

let's make it bigger than that, because it's absolutely true.

Speaker 3: Guys.

Speaker 2: Yeah, three guys. So you have Mark Feelin from the

Free Press, he tried Free Press. Thank you for coming back.

Henry Payne from the Detroit News.

Speaker 4: Yeah, good to be here.

Speaker 2: Gary and Greg mcleary, who will have him as automotive journalists.

There'll be big news about him soon.

Speaker 3: So we'll leave it.

Speaker 2: At that, all right, guys, Now you know that The reason I have you here is that we're going to discuss the semi finalists for the North American Car, Truck and Utility of the Year Awards, because you're all three jurors, as am I. But first I always have a little

quiz for John to have him determine something that happened in automotive history. So now I could have the three

of you, could I could give you this if you want to try to answer this mystery question. What do

you think?

Speaker 3: Can we call the segment? Or are you smart? Smarter

than a mackel?

Speaker 4: Right?

Speaker 2: You said it all right? So here it is. There

was a television show that made it debut on September twenty sixth, Today's the twenty six but September twenty sixth, nineteen eighty two, that involved an automobile. What was the

show and bonus points if you can tell me what the car was.

Speaker 4: It was a TV show.

Speaker 2: It was a TV show, regular weekly TV show, regular weekly TV show Life and back in the olden days when it was just non streaming, it was just broadcast television.

Speaker 3: I'll take a swing at it night Rider, and I literally never watched that. That was the show that introduced

us to the greatness of David Hasselhoff, though, wasn't it indeed?

And the car was called Kits and I never watched it, but it was so And what was for me eating that?

Speaker 5: I knew all that?

Speaker 2: And what was the car?

Speaker 3: Trans am Ferbert?

Speaker 2: And what did kids stand for?

Speaker 3: That I do not know?

Speaker 2: See finally stumped you market? What's it sad for? Night

Industries two thousand? Okay, I have no Well, okay, so

so Hasselhoff was playing Michael Knight. Oh okay, so this

this is why it was his car? So you were

you were too young to watch any of.

Speaker 5: This in nineteen eighty two. I wasn't watching Night Rider.

I was. I was gonna guess Cheers or Taxi.

Speaker 3: But it was a great show. Much better you watch

Taxi the night Rider?

Speaker 5: All right?

Speaker 4: So good though, because I was I was in college.

I wasn't watching TV, but I was aware of the of the car. But but like you, I've never seen

an episode.

Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever seen David Hasselhoff in anything.

I managed to never watch. They watch either, they watch, Yeah.

Speaker 4: They watch. I watched a few.

Speaker 2: Episodes, probably not to see David hassel That rode all right?

Speaker 4: All right, was he in that? All right?

Speaker 2: Now that we just lost half our viewers, So moving right along, all right, So you know, we all talk about nactoy and we think that everybody knows what nactoy is, and it's an unfortunate reality that they don't. So so

let me give a little background. So the award. And

you may have been there at the very beginning nineteen ninety four, it was not. I came in later will

claim that you were there.

Speaker 3: I came in just before the intermission, I think.

Speaker 2: Okay, And so nineteen ninety four first time the awards were given. So in that case there were just two categories.

There were cars and trucks. So the finalist for cars

with the Mercedes Benz C Class Chevy Camaro Toyota Supra.

The winner of Car of the Year in nineteen ninety four was anybody want to guess.

Speaker 3: Sea Class And you are right again. Oh I remember

that because somebody I worked with had one and it was revolutionary because it was the first time Mercedes had done a relatively small car and.

Speaker 2: You're just showing off how much you.

Speaker 3: Know, how long I've been doing this.

Speaker 2: The truck finalists were the Dodge Ram the Chevy S ten slash gmc Sonoma and the land Rover Defender ninety.

The winner was not a clue.

Speaker 5: I don't know. Let's say Ram.

Speaker 2: And you are correct, sir. So in twenty seventeen it

was decided that there would be the third category, utility vehicles.

And so, just in case people might be wondering, that first year of utility finalists, they were the Chrysler PACIFICA, Jaguar F Pace in the Mazda c X nine and the Winter was PACIFICA. And Henry is correct.

Speaker 4: All right, we all get a point.

Speaker 2: This is this is this is basically a trifecta. So

I didn't know this, and I know that you were involved in the design of the trophy. Ed Welburn, who

had been in charge of design at General Motors for many years, designed the trophy.

Speaker 3: For the first fifteen years or so, the trophy was just a block of sort of indistinguishable crystal with a Tiffany bill on it, and we decided something more on point would be useful, so that it would actually vaguely automotive, vaguely very good.

Speaker 5: It's very striking, Yeah, it's it's beautiful.

Speaker 2: And so what I also didn't know, and I'm sure that you did know that Since twenty seventeen there has been the replica of that in what is it called now?

It is something to place in or is it something else.

That's the place formerly known as Cobole Hall con Center that everyone in the de TROI will always know as Cobo Hall and it'll never change. And so that's been there,

and so all of the Nectoy winners have have been on a plaque there.

Speaker 3: So I actually called Ed Welburn and asked if he would be interested in designing the trophy for us, and he said he said yes, I Ed as it was a historian of general motors design, and he told me once how great it was that Harley Earl had designed the Daytona five hundred trophy. So when I was president

of NACTOY, I thought, oh, that might be an idea.

So I asked Yd and he designed this just stunningly gorgeous trophy for us.

Speaker 2: Yeah, clever, very clever. So just to bring us up

to date. So for the awards for last year, the

car finalists were the Honda Accord, the Hondai Ionic six, and the Toyota Prius. And the winner was there he's

right again. Trucks Chevy Colorado, Chevrolet Silverado e V in

the Ford super Duty super Duty, and last but not least.

Speaker 3: Utility.

Speaker 2: Genesis Electrified GV seventy, which is one of the most awkward names of a vehicle ever.

Speaker 5: Rolls off the tongue, right, I mean, it's just like.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like NAC tore it rolls off the especially since we added the U for utility.

Speaker 2: Yeah, EV nine and the Hyundai Kona winner your turn, I think, yeah, indeed, the EV nine. Okay, So now

we'll get to the semi finalists for this year. Okay,

so I want you guys to tell me what you but.

Speaker 3: It's been renamed Best of twenty five Best of twenty twenty five rather than semifinalists now, which is a good piece of marketing, I think, But they are semi finalists, yes, absolutely, so yeah, generically I just feel like, generically speaking, the best of twenty twenty five are the semi finalists.

Speaker 5: Good for SEO, right, best there you.

Speaker 3: Go, Okay, you go.

Speaker 2: Greg's knowledge of the Internet is frightening.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker 2: So now you guys, especially you two, drive more vehicles than it's it's just heads would explode if they knew how many vehicles you drove, got.

Speaker 3: One hundred a year, Yeah, yeah, same same ballpark, probably all right?

Speaker 2: And and Greg, you've driven your share. And I often

wonder why more of my neighbors aren't over at my house, wondering why I have different cars in my driveway all the time.

Speaker 3: And I found out people I don't even know sometimes drive by just to see what's in my driveway, and I don't. I don't think they know what I do,

and just so it's an interesting driveway.

Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed, and they probably called the police on you, Henry, and saying.

Speaker 4: My neighbors think I'm a drug dealer, don't. I don't

quite get the connection. But that's that's all the time.

Speaker 5: I got repossessor once. That was kind of funny.

Speaker 3: Oh, I like that.

Speaker 5: I'm a repo guy, and I take the cars home with me.

Speaker 3: All rights be Charlie Sheen in Our Hearts.

Speaker 2: Okay, So here is the first alphabetical order of the cars best of twenty twenty five BMW three series. Henry,

what do you think.

Speaker 4: Haven't driven it yet?

Speaker 2: Okay?

Speaker 4: And I'm sure it's spectacular.

Speaker 5: Agreed, same, I actually haven't driven it yet either.

Speaker 3: I'm not sure anybody has. But it's the latest edition

of the car that created the concept of sports today.

You know, it has to be on the list for consideration, and you think it'll be I would be surprised if it's not great, okay, and if the grill is not ugly all right.

Speaker 4: So although, but but what is interesting about BMW is it's going through one of these design evolutions. What was

the bangle design revolution of twenty five years ago was pretty controversial time, and I think they're in a similar mode now where they're they're they're you know, they're running two different design languages electric and I see, and so I think it's it's I mean, three series is always good, but it's a little more controversial now because of these designs.

The BMWM two, which came out I believe a year ago, is strange looking, looks like it was designed by a Lego maker. So esthetically, I don't know that this BMW

three series is a home run like we've expected in the mast.

Speaker 5: We'll see with the three series, I think too, it's gotten very complex to your point, Henry, and I think it's really moved past what it was like. I did

drive the five series earlier this year, and I thought, man, it's this is different than what I thought it was.

It's like, I almost feel like i'd be too old for it.

Speaker 2: So it's the series, okay, BMW five Yeah.

Speaker 4: Speaking of five series, yea, I mean, I mean it's interesting.

Sedan's you mentioned the SUV's only came in as a category in twenty nineteen, but they've taken over the non truck market. You know, we're seventy thirty truck market. The

Detroit makers don't even make sedans anymore. Ford's entry level

vehicle is a pickup truck Ford Maverick. So the number

of sedans that are coming out every year are diminishing.

So I think it's a it's kind of an eclectic list because this is pretty much all the sedans this year, and that was introduced this year. Yeah, and so the

M five is a very niche vehicle, very expensive, very niche, great vehicle, but affordable by only it to only a few.

Speaker 2: And we'll get to very expensive next but Mark, I was going to.

Speaker 3: Say, and technically it will be beyond compare. I'm sure.

I mean, you know, just about every M model that BMW has done in the last fifteen years, has got more capability than anybody except a professional race driver can really ever use. But it will also be beautiful and

exclusive and they'll sell everyone they make.

Speaker 2: So so let me ask you, this is sort of a diversion. So is your sense of it that BMW

is the quintessential German builder over say, Audi Mercedes.

Speaker 3: That's a brilliant question.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a loaded question.

Speaker 3: I think personally, I think Mercedes. I think BMW is

what it is perfectly, it is so focused. But I

think Mercedes defines German auto making, you know, the the the idea that it's a bank vault and that it's solid and heavy and luxurious.

Speaker 5: I think, yeah, I would agree with that, and I think Mercedes really it defines. It's a symbol of German industry,

not just cars but all manufacturing, I think, and I think like the E and the C class, which I drove fairly recently, they really are like well executed with everything, whereas I feel like BMW, into a lesser extent, Audi's don't quite have that presence. Whereas BMW you get the power,

you get the sportiness, you know, obviously the luxury is there.

But to me, it kind of comes across differently and OUDI is I think, kind of its own thing.

Speaker 3: And BMW's brand definition and perception is so strong that they can do features and design elements that are very controversial and it unhurt them because the brand just has that kind of cachet.

Speaker 4: I think Mercedes still defines German luxury, but I think BMW and the M five is an example, defines German performance.

I mean they were the first to come up with this mbadge, a separate performance line. Mercedes followed with the

MG Aldi Is followed with the RS class, but it was BMW that really separated that. And you see a

lot of automakers go down that road. I mean the

Ionic five N that we'll talk about later. They're they're

separating this N badge as a performance badge, very BMW like.

So I think BMW is really the first to do that way back in the in the early eighties.

Speaker 2: Okay, so moving right along, you were mentioning expensive vehicles, the Cadillacs Celestick. Okay, if anybody is driven it, it's

got to be one of you.

Speaker 4: Two no, no, And again I don't think this vehicle it's a. It's a coach built vehicle. Three hundred and

fifty dollars is what we're hearing. Case price, yeah, before

the mats.

Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

Speaker 4: I don't think this is a vehicle would have made this list if there were more seday and entries. It's

it's so exclusive. So I mean it's it's an interesting vehicle,

but I don't think it's a vehicle you would normally see on an Actoay final.

Speaker 3: As it comes back your f your I mean, we value affordability, a great deal. Should we have a top price,

you know, a ceiling And the times that I've been around for that conversation, the decision has always been, now, will let people, you know make their decision. I mean,

it's a fascinating vehicle. If they execute it well, it

will be incredibly important for Cadillac as it tries to re establish itself to where people talk about it the way we were just talking about Mercedes, you know, frankly.

But I mean it is certainly an outlier on the list.

Speaker 2: I mean so arguably someday there'll be a lunar Rover that will be on the list because an expensive car will have its capability here, all right, we'll move on.

Speaker 3: I don't think they've read I don't think I've seen a registration figure on a single I don't think they've even delivered one. Yes, but it's all so deeply a

mish enmeshed in billionaire's business dealings. Who knows.

Speaker 5: I couldn't find something tax right off forms or something that got celastic on there, and that's in the margins.

Speaker 2: DoD's charger EV.

Speaker 4: Not a vehicle waven tested yet.

Speaker 3: It's going to be fascinating.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks good.

Speaker 3: I mean it looks good, it sounds good. I don't

know that the whole idea of how much of a useless affectation is to give an electric vehicle the ability to make sounds like a V eight. But it's probably

something that it's almost certainly something that some people will buy, and it's a really important vehicle for Stilantis. If they

execute it well, I mean, if they execute it, well, it's going to be terrific.

Speaker 5: I think I think it could be as important as the three hundred was like twenty years ago, if they execute it. But I mean, because it's an e V,

it can be a Sedan or a coup. It could

get you excited about, you know, the idea of Dodge Performance.

It's got those throwback styling cues. If they you know, Dale,

It's gonna be great. But I mean, I can't wait

to drive it.

Speaker 3: To be And it's a huge engineering challenge because they developed it to be a performance car both with internal combustion and electric power, which is pretty toll order.

Speaker 5: I bet that Hurricane straight six they're gonna that's gonna be the volume play. I bet they sell a ton

of those.

Speaker 3: Yeah that makes sense.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean yeah. I mean the fact that Tim Kiniskus,

who is it was so synonymous with the reinvention of Dodge as a performance brand. The fact that he's left

the brand ahead of this vehicle hitting the market makes me a little nervous that maybe they he thinks they've jumped the shark on this vehicle. They need this vehicle

to get EV credits so they can keep making in line Hurricane sixes. But yeah, this will be I think

this will be a very controversial car.

Speaker 5: All right.

Speaker 2: Another Stillant's vehicle, the Fiat five hundred E.

Speaker 4: It's the cutest car on the list.

Speaker 2: Cutest car on the list.

Speaker 5: Okay, they think that's a good way.

Speaker 4: It's suspended production on it because it's selling so poorly.

Speaker 5: So it's a lot of fun to drive. It's like

a golf cart, you know. You know, it's it's cute.

I had a bright red one, you know, I took it to the pool over the summer. Everybody was excited

by it.

Speaker 3: But it's a delightful little car. I mean, it's biggest

problem is that nothing about it qualifies for any of the US tax credits. If you could knock seventy five

hundred dollars off the price of it, it's quirks and limitations would be a lot less of a factor. But

as it is, it's you know, it's it's expensive, it has a short range, and you can do more of everything but be cute in a bunch of other electric vehicles.

Speaker 4: For Lex, it's a European vehicle.

Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not made for our infrastrate.

Speaker 4: Sold it's being sold here. I mean when we when

we did the test program in Miami and the the product chiefs were here and they're talking about it. What

a joy it was to drive in cities of Europe.

The cities of Europe are very different than driving in Miami.

Speaker 3: There's a handful of places where it would make sense.

In America, I mean, the Fiat five hundred has always been a very specialized species that evolved for a niche that is, you know, more common in Europe than it is here.

Speaker 2: Right, all right, A perennial vehicle on the list a Honda Civic, this time the Honda Civic hybrid mark.

Speaker 3: Nobody does the compact volume car better than Honda, and the addition, the decision to bring back a hybrid is a very smart recognition of where the market is and where Honda needed to go strong, strong player.

Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, Honda being the company that first introduced a hybrid in the United States, even though it's synonymous with Toyota nowadays.

Speaker 3: But Honda got there first and spent a generation squandering that lead.

Speaker 4: Yes, it's interesting that that point though was interesting. It

was first, but it was it always played in the shadow of the Prius. The Prius really defined hybrid, and

the Honda never really knew how to compete against Prius.

It did, it did an insight for a while, try that badge, tried it as a as a civic hybrid, and now I think again, given the regulatory pressures they see they see that the need here not only in Civic but in CRV and an accord to get a volume hybrid seller. So I think this will become a

mainstay now of Civic. They're targeting forty percent sales. And

it's very good, right, It's a very good.

Speaker 5: Guard be a strong contender, I think, because it does so many things well, it's efficient, it does all the Civic things you know that looks good. I think it's

gonna be very strong.

Speaker 4: Civic has won this award three times already.

Speaker 3: At least I would say, yeah, hey, someone in the comments, they need to bring that PACI. What do you think

about that?

Speaker 5: Here? Here sounds good to me.

Speaker 4: I just liked it.

Speaker 2: All car guys want those. Unfortunately, consumers are not as

chuffed about it, and consequently.

Speaker 3: Said so many civics they could afford to build it though, I mean, if you're going to do a coup, why not do a.

Speaker 4: So.

Speaker 2: Speaking of another sedan, the Kia K four formerly known as the Forte.

Speaker 3: Again, we haven't driven it yet. The press drive is

early December. I think I'll be in listen to see

what they do. Kia has never established itself as a

top tier player in that segment. I don't think they've

always competed more on price. If they managed to do

something that challenges the Civic, that'd be a huge deal.

Speaker 4: You know.

Speaker 2: You mentioned and what I found astonishing is that the starting price for that vehicle will be twenty one nine and ninety dollars. I mean it's just like they're recognizing

that people need affordable vehicles.

Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean it's a market.

Speaker 4: And that's a great spot for Kya to be. I mean,

the Civic is now starting at twenty over twenty five thousand dollars, so you know, the Civic is playing a little more premium in that segment. So I think that's

a really good play for Kia, and it's it's stable made.

Is the Hyndaia Launcher, which I think is superb, a really good car, and you know, you take those bones with the K four and I would expect it's going to be very good. I love the price.

Speaker 5: They'll chase value all day long, both Hondai and Kia.

You know, they'll be well equipped, you know, style plays.

So looking forward to driving it now.

Speaker 3: You guys, it's funny that we know talk about twenty one thousand dollars twenty two thousand effectively, as if that's a a triumph of affordability when four years ago everybody thought that your base model had to start below twenty.

I mean, it's just how the markets evolved were the days.

Speaker 4: I think the other piece of that, which I think is fascinating is don't you think a lot of that?

I mean, part of that obviously is margin. It's hard

for these automakers to make margin under twenty thousand, but used cars now go two hundred thousand plus miles. I

mean it's an easier play. I've talked to a couple

automakers have admitted, you know why, you know, our customers they'll just go into the used market. I mean, they

don't want a cut rate a new car at fifteen thousand dollars. We can just go get a used Civic

or use the cord for fifteen grand and the thing will last forever. So I wonder if the used market

hasn't changed the dynamic.

Speaker 5: I think Ke and Hyundai need that perhaps more than say Honda and Ford, et cetera. They need to kind

of get consumers into their cars, that kind of gateway vehicle.

And yeah, are they going to probably make a ton of money on the you know, the K four probably not, but you know down the road who knows.

Speaker 2: Well, Perhaps what their strategy is is that, you know, you get them in the K four, people have a good experience with it, and then they buy a K five, and then they make their way up to an EV nine and they make them well.

Speaker 3: And part of what makes Kiya interesting at the moment is that with the EV nine they managed to establish themselves as something that at least has the potential to be a kind of a premium brand. So what do

they do particularly with you know, design and interior looking field?

I think in the in the K four is going to be fascinating.

Speaker 2: Right right, Okay, you guys alluded to this earlier Mercedes Amge Class.

Speaker 4: BMWM five competitor. It's almost like we should separate a

separate class this year for over one hundred thousand dollars a vands and we can put the Panamera, the Mercedes AMG Class, the M five, and the Celestick in there and let them have that well mac toyk we had another acronym or something like that, toys.

Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So so Henry, you mentioned the Porsche Panamera on the list, so you're you're our in house race car driver.

Speaker 4: Yeah. I think the Panamera is interesting because it's priced

right on top of the Taykon, which is their first electric car. And it's been interesting to watch the sales

of those two. They're both performance sedans, one electric, one Panama. Initially,

the the Taykon sales were you know, we're uh, you know, we're came on strong. But I think that early adopter

is sort of leveled out and the Panamera scenes be doing okay. So it looks like those two are going

to co exist for now, which is fascinating to me.

Speaker 3: And it's all it was a marvelous car. I mean,

it looks good, it's it is comfortable, luxurious, It's a lot of things that many people thought Porsche could never do, and it turns out that Porscha does them brilliantly.

Speaker 5: They still have that steering and you know ride and handling that you sort of expect. It's not a nine

to eleven, but you get the idea of it. I

think Porscha does that better with like the Panamera, the Macan, the Cayenne. Then maybe Mercedes and Audi and BMW do

with their like sedans and subs, you still get that like real sporting feel. I think of the Panamera.

Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, and the last car on the list, the Toyota Camri. Now, what I find interesting about the

camera is that, you know, they've gone all hybrid now, so you can't buy a hybrid or can't buy a camera that's not a hybrid. And in the first half

they actually sold three percent more cameras than they sold last year when there was a mix of power trains.

So it seems that the customers have taken to it.

Speaker 3: Well, the market's up a little bit as well, you know, bush I mean, I would imagine a lot of customers don't know whether it's it's a hybrid or not, and they don't really care because it's seamless and it's got really good fuel economy and they're not paying a big premium.

Speaker 5: Right. I drove a camera here today and it took

me like until I got on the Express before I realized, oh, right, this is a hybrid. They're all hybrids, and it's very

like seamless it's and I think that's a good move for Toyota. Just make it like the default option that's

efficient as all get out and it makes all the sense in the world. It's pretty fun to drive too,

I mean relatively.

Speaker 3: It's a great look at car.

Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, yeah, it's well again, it's this mainstreaming of hybrid.

I mean, going back to the discussion of the Civic, the Insight, the Prius needs to be NERD cars. Now

the Toyota Camera is styled after the Toyota Prius. The

Prius is now their halo car in terms of styling.

Show shows you how mainstream that hybrid idea has become.

Speaker 2: All right, so we're we're gonna take the end of the segment as a good time to take a break, and then we're going to come back and we'll talk about the trucks, which there are fewer, and the utilities, which there are mentally more. So we're going to give

a shout out to our friends at Bridgestone and borg Warner, both of whom we really appreciate to make this happen.

Knowing that a little rain won't slow down your day, that's what really matters. Bridgetone to runs a quiet tract

tires confident control in wet conditions.

Speaker 1: The automotive industry continues to evolve and so do the opportunities to define it. Borg Warner, one of the world's

most admired companies, gets its partners where they need to go.

Let's do something big and together.

Speaker 2: Lot of placement, all right, and we are back. This

is a lively break. Okay. So we're in the trucks

Card which really had the mid sized truck for years and years and years and years and years and years with a Ranger because they never really needed to change it and they paid for the tooling and they just kept making it. But now they've got a new Ranger. Henry.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean these are I mean the truck wars are always great, and but it is it is fascinating to see you got a book ending This is a Ford Ranger in Toyota, Tacoma. And uh, the Detroit three.

Did all of them leave this segment at some point?

They did.

Speaker 3: Yep, they all abandoned it.

Speaker 4: They all left this segment, which is really curious to me.

I remember, I remember the official explanations that all you people were just coming into dealerships and the dealer dealer would say, here's our here, here's our mid size truck.

Let me have to say up, say you to the to the full sized truck. But you know, given given

the way people come into brands, it was mysterious to me that they abandoned that segment for a time and Taco Toyota Tacoma became the mainstay. And even as the

Detroit three have come back into the segment, uh it is, it has maintained its its market share. So uh you know,

now I think for the first time the Tacomas is getting the Detroit three, Ranger, Colorado and the Canyon all came back, uh kind of rushed back into the segment.

But now for the first time they've they've really the Rangers is, you know, is a full on new car.

It's got a it's got a full performance model, the Ranger Raptor to go after the Tacoma t RD. So

I love this little trucklet war and the Ranger is is tremendous and grant great to have the finally have the Ranger Raptor in this market.

Speaker 2: So so you know, you're speaking of the dominance of the Tacoma and it's been that way for a number of years. So I looked at their sales for the

first half and they sold six thousand, four hundred and thirty seven, which was forty percent lower than the first half of last year Tacoma. So I contacted Toya this

morning and I said, you know what gives and they said, basically, you know, it had a lot to do with the changeover from the last model to this model. So like, okay,

But then I got to thinking, hmmm. So I looked

at the Colorado sales numbers, and I looked at the Canyon sales numbers, and so the Colorado sols forty eight hundred and twenty three, the Canyon sold six eight hundred and thirty five. And if you put those two together, Tacoma,

even though it's forty percent down from where it was last year, is still ten thousand, seven hundred and seventy nine units more.

Speaker 3: It's the vehicle that defines the segment, and frankly, I think it did even before the other companies bailed out of the segment. I think part of the reason they

bailed out was because they knew they couldn't beat the Tacoma.

Then they discovered it's really expensive to not even compete with the Tacoma, so they came back. But I mean,

the Tacoma, it's the defining vehicle, and they added a hybrid version which is the only hybrid in its segment, and it's true to Toyota's brand, and it is impossible to overrate. I think how important the Tacoma is to

everything Toyota stands for in this country.

Speaker 2: All right, so you guys know a lot. So how

come it does so well with the Tacoma and it doesn't do so well with the Tundra because the.

Speaker 3: Big three are really good at big trucks. I mean everybody.

For a while, people don't know whenever you know, Toyota or Nissan get into full sized pickups, they're going to wipe the floor with the Big three. Now it turns out,

you know, they had been putting all of their capital investment and research and engineering talent into those vehicles all along, and they're good and they've got massive volume, which makes it really tough for any new competitor to compete, to just hang around. I'm frankly a little bit surprised the

Toyota has decided it's worth remaining in the Touns for business.

But they do when you know, they can afford it, so why.

Speaker 2: Not it build sequoias and things on the cream yep.

Speaker 5: You could argue that Tacoma is almost like comparable that like the F one fifty, you know, as far as being the symbol of what their truck business is and stands for. And you know, the customer base is so

loyal that you know, I've driven a lot of different versions of the Tacoma over the years. There's some compromises,

you know, sometimes the headroom's a little tight. It's bouncy, jouncy,

it's it's a lot of fun, I think, but I mean there's some compromises, and through it all, it's almost like a jeep. You know, the customers they flock to it.

They put up with the foibles and it's tough to be.

Speaker 4: And to Mark's point, is a helo of the brand.

I mean, it's design influences the RAM four for goodness sake.

But it is curious why they're able to get in.

They were able to get in to that end of the market against formidable competition from Ranger and and GM and was.

Speaker 2: The S ten and the Dakota from yeah, Dodge.

Speaker 4: And they can't compete at the high end, I mean the high end has I mean, they've never been able to go into the to the higher variants, right, the twenty five hundred class, the thirty five hundred class.

Speaker 3: And that's part of the volume problem, right, they don't have the plans to do it. And I have to

say I wasn't around driving cars, much less comparing cars when the first generation S ten was going up against the SR five or whatever the Tacoma's grandfather was. But

you see a lot of forty year old Toyota compact pickups still on the road in the West. You don't

see many Rangers or S ten's that old, So I feel like they were probably better at it then Tooality.

Speaker 2: All right, GMC Sierra EV.

Speaker 3: I mean, it's a fascinating vehicle. It'd be probably it

would be nice if they had more than just the most expensive one in the lineup in production now. It'd

give us a better chance to really understand it and evaluate it. But on the other hand, it's what four

hundred and forty mile range I think on a charge that's a lot, and coming at the same time that GM is rolling out its access to Tesla's charging network.

It's an EV that's got some really appealing, you know, stuff kind of in its aura.

Speaker 5: To me, it's like a luxury statement almost it's a luxury truck. If cadillacted trucks, this would be in my opinion.

And it's a tour to force too. Right up there

with like the Hummer, you know, the truck version of the Hummer and it's loaded. I think it looks really good.

I think GMC styling has come a long way and it all is kind of I think embodied in this.

Speaker 4: Truck very niche vehicle though. I mean I think with

the with the the Detroit automakers are realizing, is that is that electric trucks. You know their country club trucks,

but people buy trucks. They buy full sized trucks and

above for utility. I I towed a truck this this

summer up up up through Canada and there was no charging infrastructure. And when you're you're you're looking at these GM.

The GM Multium battery is very good in terms of UH.

You know, what we're hearing from our buddies at the TfL truck is they're only losing about fifty percent of range when they tow, which is comparable to diesel. That's

that's pretty good. But when you're competing against uh, you know,

six hundred and seven hundred mile range diesels. With infrastructure everywhere,

it is so hard to justify buying an electric truck unless you're unless you're a country clubber.

Speaker 2: All right, we got we got to be quick. Here,

got to be quick. Here, I'm gonna get you off.

RAM fIF teen hundred.

Speaker 3: Very big deal. Oh sorry, I was thinking the Rammy

rev now less of a big deal. A very nice truck. It's,

you know, is the first vehicle in which the straight six hurricane engine replaces the old HEMI. It's a luxury.

It's it's very well equipped. I expected to do well.

It will be a reasonable competitor in the segment.

Speaker 5: Very solid. I always like RAM interiors. We were talking

off camera, but like you connect, I think RAM rams entertainment and you know Ergo Stlantis is entertainment. Is always

it's easy to use, and I think RAM tends to usually have the most comfortable ride. I think the suspension

setup is good.

Speaker 4: Is there is the R H O part of this entry?

Is it just the I think I think I'm thinking it is.

Speaker 2: It's basically a trim that's the highest output.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and which is a serious competitor to the to the Ford Raptor, you know, the their first foray into a performance truck, you know, the Hellcat version of the truck.

Very expensive, but with with this model, with the inline six, they're going right after the V six Raptor a much more affordable price sixty five seventy thousand dollars and I'm excited about that truck.

Speaker 2: Okay, the last one on the truck list, the Rivian R one t.

Speaker 3: Very very nice. They did it. It's deceptive because the

exterior looks very similar to what it replaced. There are

some light changes, changes to the lights, but no sheet metal, but about half of the mechanical parts were replaced. The engineering,

the electrical system is all new. I mean, I spent

a week and a half with one, and it was an absolutely delightful vehicle. It's I don't know if it's

going to win, but it's going to keep Rivian in business until they're higher volume vehicles, right.

Speaker 5: It's critical, critical updates under the skin, and you know, to Mark's point, keeps them in business until this next like range. They announced two or three different vehicles, like

a hatchback, smaller crossovers, that type of thing. Just in February.

So very high fiber, high protein upgrade, even though you don't really see any difference to it.

Speaker 2: Well, I mean basically when they started out, they just had that one, you know, quad motor set up, and now they have the tri motor and the dual motor, so they've you know.

Speaker 3: And they make the house which helps them, and they've increased their range. I mean, they checked a.

Speaker 5: Lot of boxes and they got to hold on until that Volkswagen money starts to come in and pays for future things.

Speaker 2: Well, but then they have that I mean that the price point of the thing is is like sniffing at one hundred thousand, which is its price.

Speaker 5: But it is a strong DeLand I think like a lot of people like when you see one, they're like, what is that think? You know, it's got that right

kind of outdoorsy electric vibe that I think people are interested in.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's what I like about it. I mean,

I when when I bought a Tesla sight unseen, you know, when when Musk announced the Model three, I bought, I bought a Tesla and i've and I just just turned five my my Tesla and it's different than any other car out there. And the Ribban is the same way.

The Rivian is the most tesla like I think of any other vehicle on the road. Uh So you get

into it and it's different than every other truck. And

I think they've really, really they're here to stay because they're true, true to that brand.

Speaker 2: When are Singe is gonna say, Henri says we're here to stay.

Speaker 4: Takes a lot of money, though there's staying takes a lot of Saldi money and v W money.

Speaker 3: I don't Saudi, that's what that's Lucid. Lucid is funded

by Saudi, not not Rivian. Amazon money is.

Speaker 4: Rivian got initial got a big, big investment from Saudi.

Speaker 2: All Right, so we're gonna move onto the longer lists of the SUVs. We've got less than twenty minutes, so

you guys have to be chop, chop one word answers, right, Well, a couple more than that, because I have to start the list over again, all right. Chevrolet Equinox E V. Henry,

we'll start with you.

Speaker 4: I like the Equinox EV and and it's it's it's interesting to me because it's a mainstream badge. A lot

a lot of companies like Kia Hyundai of have created new badges for their for their evs Ionic or or EV, whereas Chevy has said, you know, we're going to go all electric at some point, so we're we're we're going to start with one of our most mainstream badges, Equinox.

On the other hand, missing from this list is the Equinox ICE internal combustion vehicle, which parallels in the market and is a better vehicle, better, better range, more more practical for the customer, and has the same very good Google built in interior.

Speaker 2: You know what I had interesting is is that the Equinox EV and the equinox IC have different appearances.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, but as they should.

Speaker 2: As they should, but I mean oftentimes it's just like, okay, this is just a powertrain option. Will just shove the

ICE powertrainer.

Speaker 5: Then I think they have different missions to jump in.

I think like they want the Equinox to be like this gateway vehicle to Chevy Electrics, and I think the design is outstanding. Design is subjective, right, but I think

it's a good looking vehicle and the interior is set up nicely, it's got respectable range, it's pretty affordable. I

think the the EV version is a very solid competitor.

Speaker 3: And that's the thing. It matters because it's the first

affordably priced electric vehicle from a domestic company in the biggest segment in the market. Yeah, it can, it can

move the market.

Speaker 5: It's bigger than say the Bolt was, which was pretty small, you know, relatively speaking, whereas.

Speaker 3: And designed to be a niche vehicle.

Speaker 2: Yese Honda Prologue.

Speaker 3: Very nice Honda version of the Chevy Blazer built alongside the Chevy Blazer. It's it's succeeds in looking and feeling

like a Honda and it's a good EV.

Speaker 4: At the same time, I must most of my quarrels with with my fellow jurors or are in this category, and I'll give you I'll use the Prologue as an example. Uh.

Missing on this list is the Cadillac Optic, which is there, which is Cadillac's entry level U s u V A very competitively priced for a brand that is going all EV and I think that's a very significant car for them.

That is not that did not make this list. The

handa Prologue is a is a space saver at the moment, it is not. It is not. It is built on

shed on GM's platform. It does not signal anything larger

coming from the brand. This is not a brand that's

going all electric, at least not now. So I'm curious

why the Prologue made this list most expensive Honda out there as opposed to a Cadillac Optic.

Speaker 3: Did you like it, Henry?

Speaker 4: It's nice, but you know again, there's nothing. There's nothing

really Honda to it. I mean, to me, it's it's

a it's a Honda build on the ULTM platform that undergirds the Cadillacs and undergirds the Chevy Blazer.

Speaker 2: Okay, people, a hond are weeping right now.

Speaker 4: Love the civic.

Speaker 2: Volvo EX ninety.

Speaker 3: Very persuasive, big ev from Volvo, important to them. Built

in the United States. Its biggest weakness is that its

most appealing new feature is based is waiting for software updates and won't be available until sometime next year.

Speaker 2: So this would be the linear.

Speaker 3: Yes, the ability to sense objects with great precision up to nine hundred feet away in just about any kind of weather. That's a game changer, you.

Speaker 2: Know what's interesting. So if you buy an Ex ninety,

you have this light our system and it doesn't do anything for you. Yet it is collecting information.

Speaker 3: Yes, it's collecting information and sending it back to the servers which they are theoretically using for the over the air updates that will enable the system at some point.

But yeah, it's collecting information all the time right now.

Speaker 2: It's just an interesting thing. Greg, if you had any time.

Speaker 5: I have driven this one, I think it's I would The way I would put it is, I think it tries to be what Volvo is trying to be, which is like this safe vehicle that's technologically laden.

Speaker 2: Uh.

Speaker 5: It's premium feeling, and I think it has a bit of a motion to it, unlike the prologue, which you know we all have kind of mixed feelings on. And

I took a golfing, so I have very little to add them.

Speaker 2: On the handa, So, Henry, the X ninety, I like the X ninety.

Speaker 5: Uh.

Speaker 4: The the interior is is really nice, simple, very tesla like Scaninavian interior.

Speaker 5: Uh.

Speaker 4: But to me, very niche car. This is a very

expensive thing. It's it's well north of the of the

of the x C ninety and pricing and uh, and so I again I don't know why this vehicle made the list, as opposed to say they say the uh the Chevy Traverse or or the uh, what's the what's the Buick the beautiful Buick Enclave, which are much more affordable large SUVs that I think have a much bigger, bigger audience.

Speaker 2: It was interesting. Remember last year the Volvo e X thirty,

which was I thought, was, you know, a small, remarkable car that you know, had tremendous promise and uh.

Speaker 3: And it was then postponed because it didn't qualify for the tax credit, right yeah, yeah, yeah, And wisely on Volvo's part, I think.

Speaker 4: Yeah, good, good equinoxy TV competitor playing in that affordable smaller.

Speaker 3: But I would have been in the segment if it had been available last year. It would have been a

really serious contender for the award.

Speaker 2: I think, yeah it was, Yeah, it was. It was

a fascinating car.

Speaker 5: It is a fascinating car.

Speaker 2: Unfortunately for you.

Speaker 3: Unfortunately it's been it will have been delayed so long that it will have lost any hope of having a real advantage by the time it finally arrives.

Speaker 2: Whenever that is correct, Henry, you mentioned this one earlier in passing the Hyundai Ionic five N.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this is fascinating because they we were talking about BMW earlier, this icon of performance and and and Ionic beat them to the punch. I mean, the

Ionic five n is is is the performance hot first really performance track vehicle out there, electric people, electric field exactly, and uh you know, beat BMW there, beat out he there, beat uh uh b beat Mercedes there. So yeah, tremendous product,

very very good on track, although as an suv it has a naturally higher center of gravity, so uh uh.

When we were testing it on track at lagoona Sake, a lot of us were kind of scratching our heads and saying, why why didn't why didn't they make this a sedan as opposed to a These people don't buy suv. Yeah,

but it's very track focused. I mean, you're doing a

track focused thing.

Speaker 3: How many how many owners will ever take it to the track?

Speaker 4: A lot? Yeah, I mean the people own these things

that own m's and n's and a mgs, they take them to the track, They take them to track days, and the end it's it's a little it's a little top heavy for for a track day car.

Speaker 2: So anybody is Albert Bierman still with UNDI or did he retire.

Speaker 5: I think he's retired. He left, think he's retired.

Speaker 2: But so arguably that inoculation of whatever it was that he brought.

Speaker 3: With him from UH, they hired good people to work on those programs. I think the N brand is not

going to just dry up and blow away with him.

Speaker 5: Gun. You look at what Hyundai and Q did with

like Bierman and Peter Schreyer. You know, they brought all

these this talent over from Germany and right really reflected in these products.

Speaker 3: Incredibly diverse design teams at both companies these days.

Speaker 4: What was what's the ionic Sudan UH? The six Yeah, yeah,

why they did and maybe there's a six end coming. Yeah,

there you go, there you go. So I got a

lot of fun. Yeah, I think couple of people who

really want to do the track thing. They were going

to get a six N as opposed to a five N.

But first effort is fun, monstrous power.

Speaker 2: And so this this is a somewhat interesting thing that there is another Hundai on the SUV list, the Hundai Santa Fe.

Speaker 3: High volume, their best, their biggest volume selling vehicle in the country. I think very good, you know, red from

the ground up among other things that got boxy. They

had been so you know, kind of swoopy and stealthy looking with their SUVs. This is the beginning of a

new design direction, great value, good interior. Is there a

hybrid available already? I forgets, but I mean they're going

to have the whole the whole model line again a significant player in the biggest segment.

Speaker 5: On the Yeah.

Speaker 2: I think that the design change they made on this is just it's just fascinating that. I mean, you rarely

see companies that will make that biggest shift with such an important vehicle, yep, rather than you know, this can try it incrementally, you know, in doing it.

Speaker 3: And one of the things they say is that the entire design started with the outline and the size of the tailgation because they knew that people couldn't put enough stuff in the back of the existing Santa Fe, which, if true, is fascinating.

Speaker 5: I think it's a natural evolution of like the Ford Flex.

If you look at it, it's that's exactly what the Flex would look like if it had lived. But I

think it looks really good. It was a hugely risky

play too. I mean, the Santa Fe sold very well.

They didn't have to do this, and then they did, and nobody really noticed the Santa Fe before when I would test one. I drove that thing last I forget

when I drove it, but people would come up to me and they're like, what is this thing? And we

probably we all drove the one, and like Matt copper Bronze, it's really a style maker. Yeah, I think it. You know,

we've had some complaints about niche volume vehicles, crazy powered vehicles.

This one is the antidote to all of that. It's

very much a mainstream vehicle.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and and again applause to uh Hyundai for pushing the envelope here. I mean it's I mean, it's not

just their evs. I mean they've they've taken out this

separate EV line that the Ionic, and they've done interesting things over there with a six and with the five.

But even in their mainstream cars, the Elantra is a very striking design for a compact sedan, and the Santa Fe is the same way. I had. I tested the

Santa Fe at the same time. I had a BMW

X five x five in my driveway, and the Santa Fe got more lucks from my neighbors than the BMW did.

I mean it was. It was really striking. And then

you get inside, it's got it's got this big hoodless yeh uh, twin screen display just like the bm W, all for twenty thousand dollars less in the X five and it's a really striking, premium looking vehicle.

Speaker 2: And it has that optional you can put a cell phone in and have it decontaminated.

Speaker 3: Well, that's right, the charging compartment. Yes, yes, you're ready.

Speaker 5: I had to test that.

Speaker 4: We never do.

Speaker 5: Is our phone cleaned now?

Speaker 4: I don't know?

Speaker 2: Okay. Jeep Wagon ear s.

Speaker 3: Another big deal vehicle first all electric Jeep Core segment for Stilantis, for and and for the Jeep brand. They

need to. I mean they are well behind the curve

on getting electric vehicles on the road. The Stilantis as

a whole. They need in the in the United States

and in Europe. They've been more proactive, but they need

their these first three that they've got coming over the next six months or so to all be credible.

Speaker 5: I think the Wagoneer was a good place to start to.

It's a good silhouette. They can not lose too much money,

if any on it because you can charge more for a wagon ear, and I think you know, consumers, especially that price point, are more willing to go electric. It's

to I think, to that base, it's more like an added luxury feature the country club jeep.

Speaker 4: Maybe, yeah, but it does. It does speak to why

Stillanis is in trouble, I think, And I mean, you look at this list that we're talking about here. Half

of this list is electric and a market that is sort of stagnating at ten percent of market EV fifty percent of these of these semi finalists or EV. In

the case of of Stillanis, this is a seventy thousand dollars EV same size as a Cherokee. I don't really

know why they call it a wagon ear similar size to Cherokee, which is a thirty five thousand dollar suv half that price.

Speaker 3: Grand Cherokee. They don't build a Cherokee anymore.

Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's about the size of a Cherokee.

Speaker 3: I believe that thought Grand Cherokee. But anyway, yeah.

Speaker 4: So I mean then and that you know that gets you to the difference. This is why jeep dealers are

screaming at the Lantis. They're saying, you keep your pushing

all this really high end product to us at a time when you know the economy is sort of stagnating.

A little bit.

Speaker 3: Eer is not the problem. The problem is that they

stopped building the Cherokee, that they let the Cherokee get hopelessly outdated. Maybe then shut down the plant, maybe because.

Speaker 2: We had four more and we got four minutes. Lincoln

Nautilus gorgeous screen.

Speaker 3: Best feature on the market this year. A beautiful wide,

narrow screen. And it's all the way up at the

front base of the dashboards.

Speaker 5: I was designed too, I look in vehicle.

Speaker 4: I agree with that. Sorry step on the other Greg,

but I agree with Mark on this. I mean, I

just did a road trip to New York and back with a Nautilus. And what really struck me is not

only is this Lincoln playing to its strength with an actual name, a Nautilus. You know, well I used to

do the European alphanumeric thing. I mean to me, this

is Lincoln getting back to its strength. So and these

are screens, to Mark's point, that are really striking. I

mean in a Mercedes like striking way. For twenty thousand

dollars less than Mercedes. And and I self drove on

Blue Cruise for about half of my trip to New York and back. Can't do that in the Mercedes. I mean,

you know, Lincoln is leaning into Blue Cruise, luxury, self driving and screens in a way that's really impressive.

Speaker 2: Okay, this was sort of touchdown, but not really. Uh,

Porsche Macon EV.

Speaker 3: I expect you to be absolutely brilliant. Porsche has been

doing very good evs. The Macon is a terrific vehicle.

The Macon sets the ceiling for pricing in its segment of luxury vehicles, and I think that this vehicle will do that too.

Speaker 5: Strong Clay plays to their base, gets new EV customers into the Porsche brand solid.

Speaker 4: I haven't touted it yet.

Speaker 2: Okay, toydal land Cruiser, I don't really understand that vehicle.

Speaker 3: I'll pass.

Speaker 5: Well, that's a tough one. I just drove it. It had

the I Force hybrid powertrain. I liked almost everything about it.

But the pricing is tricky because you got the fore Runner right, you know, bumping up against it. I question

exactly why they shrunk the you know, the land Cruisers footprint compared to what it was. Even though this does

make it more like what it used to be forty years ago. So I think that's good. But the Lexus

version has I think the better suspension set up and it's a little bit nicer. So what do you want

because it's a lexis all right, Well what do you want?

The land cruiser name or maybe the better stuff.

Speaker 4: So here's my take on this kind of goes back to what we were talking about with Toyota and full sized trucks. Toyota could not compete with the megautes from

the Detroit three. They just couldn't. The land cruisers, this

big ninety thousand dollars thing, and they couldn't compete against the I don't know, name them off Navigator, yeah, Escalade, Navigator, the Chevy, the.

Speaker 3: Tahoe, the suburban Hike. Yeah.

Speaker 4: And then Toyota said, you know, we're exhausted beating our heads against this, this this wall. Guess what GM hasn't

gone in to compete in the mid size market with Bronco and Wrangler. We're going for that market. Yeah, we're

going to go in.

Speaker 3: That's what the fore Runner is going to do. What's

the land Cruiser about.

Speaker 4: I'm just saying there is a huge voice, There is no GMC in that segment. There is no Chevy in

that segment, so they're throwing land Cruiser four runner. I

think they see a big hole that GM has left in that mid size SUV truck based segment.

Speaker 2: And it's good design that vehicle.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it looks good. Yeah, it really does.

Speaker 4: And it's good off road. I took it off road

and beat the thing up, and yeah, I mean.

Speaker 5: It's a lot of strong, it's really strong.

Speaker 4: But it's on the Tacoma platform.

Speaker 2: All right, the final one. And gosh, we're right at

the top the vw id buzz.

Speaker 3: How many washed up hippies are there who are buying a sixty thousand dollars retro styled electric vehicle electric mini that I expect to be well made.

Speaker 2: I think this is the first vehicle you don't like.

Speaker 3: I didn't unders and the land Cruiser.

Speaker 2: That's true.

Speaker 3: Yeah, well I guess hired.

Speaker 2: And we're at the end of the show now, so I won't go any further go on.

Speaker 5: I think it's a niche vehicle. I think it's cool

to bring back that late nineteen sixties heritage and repackage.

It is electric, but I think it's gonna be a niche play for v born in the sixties.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but he said it much nicer than I did.

Speaker 5: If you don't remember history, kind of make it up.

I don't know, Henry.

Speaker 4: Average price of a new vehicle today forty five thousand dollars.

Average price of this list that we've just talked about, sixty six thousand dollars list, the list that we just went through. I mean these the cost of vehicles is

going up in part because evs are so expensive. And

this is an example. This is a sixty thousand dollars

EV based on a car that became beloved in America because it was a twenty in today's adjusted to for inflation today a twenty thousand dollars four van. And I

think that that tells you all you need to know about the challenges of selling evs in this market.

Speaker 3: Your price end point may be the strongest argument for the Santa fe that we're going to hear too.

Speaker 2: So just to sort of underscore your point there, Henry, according to KBB, the average transition price for an EV in July was fifty six, five hundred and seventy five bucks.

Speaker 5: Yeah, so you're close there, all.

Speaker 2: Right, do you guys want to Okay, we're going to overtime here. Anybody want to make any guesses about who

will win.

Speaker 3: I've never had less of a clue than this year.

Speaker 2: No, and you do, you do your special free press.

Speaker 3: I will have to decide what the free press. You know,

top three are between now and the end of December, and I have at this point very little idea of what you know, the even the nine finalists will be.

This is a really tough year to handicap for me.

Speaker 5: I agree, it's a tough year. It's a toughier for that.

I think there's a fair amount of vehicles that the three of us actually haven't even gotten into yet, so I think that could there could be some fourth quarter changes.

To my mind, I would say Henry So.

Speaker 4: In cars, I think the I think the three top contenders are Charger e V just because it's such a crazy thing, Honta civic hybrid Toy to Camri. I think

Camri's going to win, but I believe for the first time in Nactoy history, I don't think Camray's.

Speaker 3: Everyone couldn't say one way or the other.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think camriy uh is going to take it. H trucks, My my three, my three finalists

of the five or Ranger RAM fifteen hundred and Toyota Tacoma.

I mean yeah, I mean this is yeah, this is going to be really close. I think Rangers going to

win just because because Ford has uh uh has such a great Ford truck. Cachet and on s u V,

I think is much more wide open. But I think

I think my my five best of the ten or Equinie, ev Ionic five, Inn, Volvo e X ninety, Santa Fe and Nautilus, and I agree with I agree with Mark.

I think the combination of superb execution and value, we'll make Santa Fe the winner in SUV.

Speaker 2: So Santa Fe will be the winner. There you have it, folks,

Henry Payne going out on the there. Yeah, and we

appreciate that very much, so Mark Feeling. Thanks for coming

back and pleasure sharing all that stuff, you know, because you know a lot. Greg Migliori, thanks for being back.

We'll get you back on because it's been years since you've been here.

Speaker 5: Good to be here. I love the new set.

Speaker 2: And Henry wouldn't be a show without you there.

Speaker 4: It's it's always a pleasure to be in the same room with you.

Speaker 5: Thank you.

Speaker 2: It's getting really deep in here, so we wrap the show up.

Speaker 5: We'll see you all next week.

Speaker 2: John, We'll be back and these guys won't, so ah.

Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1: Auto Line After Hours is brought to you by Bridgestone Tires, Solutions for Your Journey, and by Borg Warner. The automotive

industry continues to evolve, and so do the opportunities to define it. Borg Warner, one of the world's most admired companies,

gets partners where they need to go. Let's do something

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