AAH #714 - Infiniti and Beyond

Speaker 1: Out online. After Hours is brought to you by bridge

Stone Tires Solutions for your journey.

Speaker 2: Hey everyone, thanks for joining us on another edition of Autumn Line. After Hours. John is not here, And as

I often say, I have to bring the smartest people that I know in the industry helped me out in days like this, So in this case I brought in Tanya Goswick, who is the automotive editor for Media Post. Tanya,

your second time on the show, welcome back.

Speaker 3: Thank you for having me back. I well, the first time.

Speaker 2: You did remarkably well and I just know the audience liked you, and so here you are fantastic and one of our stalwart favorites. Mike Austin, who is now the

executive editor of Road and Track, So congratulations because you weren't the executive editor of Road and Track the last time you were here.

Speaker 4: No, so glad to be here, Glad to be a road in track. I hope there are a few other

people on the list smarter than me before you got some.

Speaker 2: Though, No, this is like right right up there. So

the reason I had to bring these very smart people in here is because we have a very special guest, mister Craig keyes, who is the group vice president of Infinity America's.

Speaker 5: Thank you for having me here. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: And we appreciate your being here. So Infinity has existed

for thirty five years. Now we're going to get into

things about Infinity and about the QX eighty. But first

I've got it. I've got to have you tell us

about your career. Now, Okay, I find this to be

rather amazing, Okay, and I truly mean it. So in

March nineteen ninety eight, you join Nissan and your first job was warehouse operator. Then you are advertising Specialists, market

representation specialist, Dealer Parts and Service Manager, Regional training Planner, Advertising Manager, Market Representation Manager, Dealer Operations Manager, Senior Manager, Regional Marketing, Area general Manager, Senior Manager Regional Operation Senior Manager, Fleet Rental Sales, Regional VP of the Midwest region. And

then in April twenty twenty two, you got the job you're in Now. That is incredible that you stuck with

a company and have been able to thank the position that thank you've gotten. I mean, tell us about that.

Speaker 6: I mean, I really appreciate being here. I appreciate being

here with my Steam colleagues in the industry and look forward to the dialogue. Now I see why you had

the notes I start. I did start my relationship with this,

this industry that I love so much today, somewhat out of necessity and working full time to sevene.

Speaker 5: My education at Rutgers.

Speaker 6: And yes, that first role was a warehouse operator job that I happened to get simply by pulling a flyer off of one of my counselor's cubicles that just said warehouse work. Ironically enough, I believe in manifestation. My first

car was a nineteen ninety Maxima GX Burgundy with the brown interior. Back then, I was closer to twenty than fifty,

and I had wheels on the car accessory wheels, tinted windows, a sound system. And so while I was working in

the PDC, you'd get these prescribed breaks. As a blue

collar job, you get a break at five five thirty and intermingled in the shared cafeteria because that facility housed Infinity's Eastern Region operations, Nissan's Eastern Region operations, and the PDC.

I'd meet professionals in the industry. I met the regional

vice president at the time for Nissan and I'd literally drag those guys outside say hey, you got to come check out my maximum if you want to sell more Nissans.

Speaker 5: And through really fellowship in networking.

Speaker 6: Once I completed my degree, I got an opportunity to interview for a specialist position on the advertising team. So

that was really my second entry into the marketing and sales side of the business for a Nissan.

Speaker 5: And you're right.

Speaker 6: Twenty six years later, I've been on teams, led teams, an individual contributor, and now the group vice president for Infinity across the Americas.

Speaker 2: So many people that get to positions like yours have not had the sticktutiveness that you've had. What was behind that, man,

what's your thinking?

Speaker 5: Well?

Speaker 6: I think I'm a very curious person by nature, and so I just love to absorb, learn, network, meet people, and operate in a thriving space that's always moving forward.

And I think this industry has afforded me that I've got friends in different industries. I'll leave my friends and

the industries unnamed that are in much more monotonous relationships with their careers and day to day are not as excited about what they do or passionate about what they do, and so for me, in an industry that's ever changing and always at the forefront of technology and evolution, I think it matches well with with my curious spirit, right, Thank you guys.

Speaker 4: Well, I was just say you've been in different parts of the company, which I think is kind of interesting.

You know, not just within one company itself is exceptional, but even just you know, not coming out with a marketing degree and you know, being in a marketing channel the whole way. So, I mean, can you speak to

that in terms of the perspective it gives you.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I can, Mike, Thanks for that question.

Speaker 6: You know, when I'm trying to give mentorship to up and coming talented people, I always talk about making the decision to be a subject matter expert or having a broader perspective, and I liken it to a pyramid, right, a pyramid that if there was a storm, Right, Maybe not the most ideal time to use that analogy, but if you're a subject matter expert, your pyramid is going to be very narrow. Right, Marketing as an example, if

you've just got marketing, but if you've got a broader pyramid and you've got a base with marketing, after sales, some corpcom you know, some field facing interface when when the storm does come, you've got a little bit more stability.

And I think, as as leaders in any organization, if you have a broad perspective, you don't necessarily have to be a subject matter expert.

Speaker 5: As long as you've got talented.

Speaker 6: People around you, you can be perceptive in any discussion and contribute and add value to the conversation. So for me,

having that broad perspective is just really really important, and I think it's part of what's driven me in my most recent years of my career as the group vice president, but even prior regional vice president for Nissan in the in the Midwest region.

Speaker 2: Tanya, Well, marketing.

Speaker 7: You know, I've covered you for a long time in my previous jobs when I was covering just specifically marketing, and it's still a big part of your job now, right it is? And you guys are a relatively young brand,

So is overall brand recognition is still an issue do you think or are you focusing now more on the vehicles or is.

Speaker 3: It still a mix of the two.

Speaker 5: That's a great question.

Speaker 6: Marketing is a super important part of what we're doing now and to answer your question, I think it's both.

Speaker 5: I think it's both.

Speaker 6: I think we do have a very, very loyal following, including our retailers, but I also think that we need to educate customers through conquesting efforts about how great this brand is and how great our product is.

Speaker 5: If I take a step back.

Speaker 6: You know, when I look at Infinity over the years, when we launched the G and we launched the FX, there was a lot to talk about and engage around, and that's how we built some of that cult following that's still with us today.

Speaker 5: We've let some of it lapse as the.

Speaker 6: Those people have ascended demographically and they've started families and they've looked towards SUVs and different things, and we haven't educated that community as much as I think we could.

So I think there is an opportunity to continue to build awareness around Infinity. And when you look at our campaign,

infinitely you that is the goal, right, talk about the product, talk about the interior. Showcase that you have these luxurious

accouterments in a brand that people might not have explored in recent years.

Speaker 2: So okay, someone's going out to shop for a vehicle. Okay, Now,

as I mentioned before, you know you got the new twenty twenty five QX eighty. Okay, but people don't necessarily

know about that, and then they say, okay, you know, there's there's Lexus over here, there's Mercedes over here, there's Catlloc over here, and there's Infinity over here. Why should

someone go to an Infinity store?

Speaker 5: That's a great question.

Speaker 6: I'm going to answer that that in a couple different ways. One,

I would point to the marketing today driving more attention towards Infinity through QX eighty. Our spot Premonition, which is

it's really built around three different spots to promote qxaighty, two product focused spots and then one more halo oriented, and Premonition essentially has had the best memorability of any spot in the last twelve month. It's ranked like in

the twenty so it's done really well for us as a brand. So it's attracting new new eyeballs.

Speaker 5: Now.

Speaker 6: In terms of the why would you want to come check out Infinity when you look at QX eighty, I'd put it in three distinct categories. The design, just look

at it. It's beautiful, it's amazing. It's quite the evolution

the prior gen was fifteen years old. I joked that

it was going to be drinking soon, but it it is quite the evolution, much better in terms of look and feel. And then the second category would be the

thoughtful hospitality.

Speaker 5: So once you step inside.

Speaker 6: The vehicle, you start to see some of the features and benefits that are really tailored to the customer, even down to just a cell phone charger being at a forty five degree angle right, whereas in most vehicles it's just a flat oneint eighty. I would also say, when

you think about the drive right, so now we've brought you in, now we get you behind the wheel when you drive that vehicle.

Speaker 5: I said this today.

Speaker 6: Someone said to us on the ride over, you know, how do you feel competing with other brands? And I said,

they're actually competing with us now because finally we've got a formidable product, and if people get behind the wheel, get inside our vehicles, I think they'll feel similarly.

Speaker 4: So kind of in a way, extending off that, and you know, looking at the qxady, but also looking out into the near future, is there a you know, is there a tagline or a phrase other than infinitely you that's sort of some like you know, what is the brand?

What are the brand values or what is the customer promise?

You know, I'm thinking, you know, something along the lines of Ultimate Driving Machine, which is probably one of the best ones and you know, pretty old, but you know, is what is that sort of short Here's here's what diffnity as a brand is.

Speaker 6: That's a great question because you could literally be on on my team because we're working on the brand promise right now.

Speaker 5: In fact, we have a global articulation of it.

Speaker 6: We're not ready to announce that yet, and we're going to even regionalize that a bit further because once once in a while things get lost in translation right between our Japanese colleagues and where we transact ninety percent of the Infinity business, which is here, and so you'll you'll hear more about that soon. But what I would tell

you is the essence and spirit of that brand promise would be to transcend what others are doing right and create that distinction that you historically saw in our DNA within FX with a G right. How can we incorporate

that back into a product design R and D communities, software engineering communities? How can we be a bit different

from the status quo in luxury today.

Speaker 4: You're getting a little bit close to the relentless pursuit of perfection.

Speaker 2: Well, I was watching I was watching a video of Alfonso Obzo, who is in charge of design for Nissan Infinity everybody.

Speaker 6: I mean, he's an amazing ally and advocate for the brain.

Speaker 2: And he used a phrase to describe the QX eighty which I thought was rather compelling. He said, it's powerful, practical,

and provocative. You know, And you've got these three three

terms that I think encompass what you guys are trying to achieve.

Speaker 6: Yeah, and I would agree that the design guys are always very eloquent in how they describe anything. But I

would I would totally agree because the QX eighty in terms of power, you've got four hundred and fifty horse power five hundred and sixteen pound feet of tour coming out of a V six twin turbo engine that's in the you know, the GTR family. But I think the

one that stands out most of me is provocative because when you look at it, I would ask people to look at it side by side, right. We'd build PowerPoint

presentations in corporate America all the time, and I my team put together a three quarter profile side by side, and let's just look at and stare at it for a few minutes and then talk about you know what that evokes. And provocative is a great word because when

I when I look at just the sturdy presence that sits higher than the competition, but then knowing the performance because I've been behind the wheel, I've got a qx AD as a as a demo, I think provocative is the the perfect signature for the for the product.

Speaker 2: There's powerful and practical of big in Michigan because you guys can toll a lot with that thing too, So that's that's key. Yeah.

Speaker 6: Yeah, well when you when I think about Michigan, I think about traverse and the snow and the all will drive, So I'll throw that in there too.

Speaker 7: Our winners are not like they used to be. You

don't really need that as much, so that's that's a good thing. I think I was there when Alfonso said

that it was. I think it was at the reveal

in New York, which you guys did at the top of a very large building outside and I just kind of to me that seemed like a moment for you, that infinity was really arrived and like really tooting its horn, and you had Aaron Andrews there, who I think has become a big brand advocate.

Speaker 6: Yeah, thankfully, Yeah, thankfully. Aaron's definitely supporting us. She's awesome.

We had John Batist at the event as well.

Speaker 5: Yeah. The event she's referring to.

Speaker 6: Was the debut of the QX eighty here in North America and it was at the Edge in New York City at Hudson Yards.

Speaker 5: The Edge is the highest deck sky deck in the in the Western Hemisphere. It was quite the feat to

get a full size suv up to the to the edge.

Speaker 6: We've got some you know, camera shots on YouTube of how we did that, but essentially, we engineered the car, had someone take it apart, company take it apart, and then put it back together. It was kind of like

color by numbers, so they took the vehicle up there in the freight elevator put it back together. For this event,

Aaron and Andrews hosted, kicked it off, and she's just phenomenal, right, you know, just having her present and the energy that she brings to the table. And then we live streamed

a concert with our partners at iHeartRadio. That was really

headlined and led by John Batist. So Aaron is a

fantastic partner, and pretty soon we'll be ready to announce a little more of a relationship with John Batist as well.

So we'll continue and extend from that point at which we launched a QXA. It was just a phenomenal backdrop

and a wonderful Even if you haven't seen it, it's available and it's out there on YouTube. Please go check

it out.

Speaker 2: So when you guys are developing vehicles, now, Infinity has become a global brand. It initially was more regional and

now it's broadened out to what extent does the North American market drive developed for vehicles?

Speaker 5: Yeah, I would.

Speaker 6: I would say that while we are a global brand, the strength of Infinity lies within North America, and the strength of Infinity within North America lies within within the US.

We've got a fantastic product planning team here on the continent, and I love and respect them dearly because they've got these glorious ideas for Infinity and some things that.

Speaker 5: We're not ready to talk about just yet.

Speaker 6: But I can't wait until until we can, And I'm connecting the dots between the front line, our retailers, what the customers are actually saying, wanting, needing, you know, along with industry expertise and feeding that back through the product planning organization. And so I would say that our influence

is pretty substantial when it comes to Infinity because the large volume comes out of the United States.

Speaker 7: I did an informal survey on social media of non automotive friends that was nobody in the auto industry could comment.

I said they couldn't, and I asked them, you know, what they thought of Infinity and the brand and the vehicles, and it.

Speaker 3: Was it was, you know, I'll be honest.

Speaker 7: It was a mixed group of comments, and there were some who were concerned about the price and also the dealer experience. Are those areas now? I know Nissan is

obviously really working on, you know, projecting the six hundred thirty thirty thousand marketing. You can buy six of their vehicles,

you can't do that, So how do you how do you you know, justify the price?

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, So there's a couple of questions in there.

What I would tell you is that.

Speaker 6: You're always going to have polarizing opinions on any brand, right I think we do have loyal following. I think

we've been recognized for our client experience. Even last year,

JD Power recognized our retailer experiences number two in the entire industry and number two in luxury. Do you have

a bad experience at a retailer, no matter what brand.

Once in a while, those things, those things do happen.

What we learned from them, we adapt quickly, and we pivot and we make changes. I would also say in

terms of price point, I think we have to elevate the stature of the brand, but we also need to make sure that what we offer to that client exceeds their expectation. And so when you look at a QX

eighty and what we offer in that product and it tops out MSRP in one hundred and ten thousand dollars range right without taxes and all the other details.

Speaker 4: But that.

Speaker 6: FSGV sect that large luxury segment, the average transaction price is closer to one hundred and twenty thousand dollars, and so we've got a competitive product, well positioned. We need

to think similarly when we're looking at other segments, whether it's the e just you know, the size just below that pathfinder, that E segment or the d SUV segment.

I want to try to simplify this for people that may not be in the industry that are watching, but you know, the two levels below. We want to make

sure that we have similar offerings great technology that when you wrap it up into a full package, it's seen as valuable and not just value, right, And I think there's an opportunity there and we can actually market that message.

And that's the purpose of the Infinitely You campaign to really showcase the interiors of the product, because when people see what we are actually offering in the vehicle at the price point, I think they respect it.

Speaker 5: You know.

Speaker 2: Speaking speaking of the product, one of the things that I find interesting about about the QX eighty is that you have three screens. Okay, so you get a fourteen

point three inch screen as your gauge cluster. Next to

that there's another fourteen times two point three inch screen and that's your infotainment, and then down here you've got a nine inch screen for HVAC and other various functions.

To what extent is the utilization of screens key in today's market.

Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a there's a fourth screen in the in the rear of the vehicle, right, And so I think screens today. You know, I'm having a little anxiety and

I want to breach for my phone, right. I think

I think it's commonplace for everyone. I think whether you're

at home, whether you're at work, or whether you're in your vehicle, it's become pretty standard now in terms of what you offer within those screens. That's where the healthy

debate around. You know, software engineered vehicles is coming into

to play, and so I think I think the big screens are are with us for the foreseeable future. And

now it's all about connecting those seamlessly to your lifestyle, right, connecting them seamlessly to your home, to your daily itinerary.

Speaker 5: I like them. I actually like them.

Speaker 6: I think there's ways that we can continue to integrate and make things a little bit more seamless. And maybe

you know, one day it'll be a twenty eight inch screen versus two fourteen's right, But I think the screens are our here today.

Speaker 2: Is it a generational thing that younger people presumably, well, I'm assuming that you know you you want to have you want to have a robust that purchase base that is going to be with you for a while rather than people who are going to basically get a vehicle.

Speaker 6: And then, yeah, I think there is a sliver of the community that still likes knobs and buttons and not necessarily the haptics.

Speaker 5: But I will tell you that.

Speaker 6: In my perspective with kids right that evolution, they are more in tunes with screens today than ever. Yeah, and

I think I think as a marketer, you're not only marketing for today's customers, right, and your products not only being developed for today's customers. You have to think about

that future audience as well.

Speaker 4: When it comes to you know, working with Nissan, whether it's North America or your colleagues in Japan, and you know, really making sure that Infinity is somewhat set apart as a as a luxury brand in a premium offering. How

do you navigate that in terms of you know, having access to the newest technology or or you know, whether you know train or other sort of technology. And also,

you know, maybe even in pushing the broader group to say, you know, we need to have this the flexibility to have you know, something extra.

Speaker 5: That's a great question. Well, there's a lot of lobbying

that goes that goes with it.

Speaker 6: But what I will tell you is that we do have access to a lot of technology because if you think about it, you you mentioned Nissan and you know juxtappose that with Infinity, but we've got a broader alliance with Mitsubishi and Renault, and there's a ton of technology floating around in these different pockets of the organization, and so really trying to be collaborative, UH and making sure that we are engaged in the conversation.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 6: I talked about product planning and their presence and really how substantial and meaningful their voices at the table. That's

ultimately what gets us access to products and gets us opportunities to refresh vehicles faster. So you'll see next year,

the MNE of year twenty six q X sixty will go through a minor change much faster pace than we have in the past. We're going to start to be

a much more responsive company to the client demands. And

really I think having a voice, a collaborative voice within the organization, whether it's Nissan, Renau, Infinity or Mitsubishi, is going to be important to that.

Speaker 7: To that end, so we talked earlier about your career and how you've you've progressed through through through the company.

And I was looking back at your career also this morning, and I know you've always been a champion for diversity, equity and inclusion, and you've gotten some awards and recognition for that.

Speaker 3: Does the current backlash against that, uh, you know, worry you at all?

Speaker 7: Some automakers are pulling back on their programming board and I'm just Toya, thank you, And I'm wondering, you know, would you guys feel the pressure.

Speaker 4: To do that if pushed?

Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm a girl dad, and so at the end of the day, doing what's right is important to me, and standing up for what's right is important to me.

And I think that DEI is good business. I think

the world is just becoming more diverse. I think business

is not just isolated to North America. It's a global

enterprise and I think that we have to be conscious of that. And so we're going to continue down the

path of inclusion because it is good for business. And

I can prove that out in numbers to anyone who wants to spend some time and have healthy dialogue around that.

But at the same time, I also feel a deep responsibility to my own family and my team's family members to continue to promote that agenda.

Speaker 2: So picking up on the business part of things, and I'll switch away from that specific topic, but I mean, what's your sense of the market right now?

Speaker 8: Is it.

Speaker 2: Not as good as you would imagine it to be, or is it better or is it just sort of what's anticipating.

Speaker 5: It's a little soft right now.

Speaker 6: This business is cyclical, right and I think every four years when we come to the point of an election, people are a little more cautious about big expenditures, no matter what your political affiliation is. I think people are

just naturally cautious and it organically seeps into our business.

You also have even though you know the Fed just just dropped the rate and there was a bit of relief, there was such an extended period of high cost, a high cost environment, and when you know your vehicle is your second biggest purchase that you're likely to make, sometimes that slows down. Do I think we'll come out of

it strong very quickly. The PtIV jumps pretty substantially, and

it's our Q three October November December, our Q three for our fiscal year Q four calendar year, and so I do expect a little bit of daylight ahead of us, and in fact, this month has started off really really well for us, and I'm excited for that, and I think UX eighty's going to be a big, big, big, big part of our success to close out the year.

Speaker 2: So you're getting a lot of good feedback from the dealers.

Speaker 5: That have these in stock, yeah, dealers and end clients.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I was talking to at dinner last night about a client that was looking at another product, and I really I almost begged them.

Speaker 5: Hey, just go check it out.

Speaker 6: Just go check it out, trust me, right, I'll set you up red carpet treatment, just go check it out.

And they ended up buying an autograph. Yeah, so I

would say it short answers, Yes, Yeah, lots of good moments.

Speaker 2: So that's sort of like what we've been talking about here, that you know, people need to see these products, and you know they may go elsewhere and not realize that.

You know, you guys have some credible stuff that they need to see firsthand.

Speaker 6: And that's why I have a job, right, That's why I still have a role because that's exactly the question is how how do we do that effectively?

Speaker 5: How do we do that efficiently? And how do we

do that in the environment that we're operating in today?

Speaker 2: All right, I got one more If you guys don't.

Speaker 5: Please, all right, So I'm enjoying my time. Thanks this.

Speaker 2: So so you have one car?

Speaker 5: Yes, what's happened to cars? Man?

Speaker 6: That segment and it's so near and dear to my heart.

But that segment is shrinking and and yeah, one car Q fifty. But we did announce a cool concept, the

Vision q E, and so there is going to be an evolution. I think sedans have been part of our

DNA historically, right, Sedan's and coops. And when we talk

about product planning, I'm going to throw this out there because I believe in manifestation we need a halo car, we need a hatelot product.

Speaker 5: So Ponds, if you're listening, let's keep let's keep working on it.

Speaker 6: But right now the world is changing and consumer demands are moving more and more towards SUVs. People are coming

out of COVID or living a more active lifestyle lifestyle and I think SUVs match the moment. But believe me,

my heart, I told you my first car was in nineteen ninety piece on Maximum. So there's a place here

for for sedan. And I think in the future when

you see the vision QE come to reality, you'll feel like we hit the.

Speaker 5: Mark, you know.

Speaker 2: And that was the four door sports car.

Speaker 5: So the maximum was the still is still is the foid or sports car?

Speaker 6: H I still remember the commercial that I love so much with you know, the sunset and they have the maximum and the sun would go down the maximum, race down the road and the sun.

Speaker 5: Would come back on. If you haven't seen that one,

check it out.

Speaker 4: Well.

Speaker 2: Craig, he's the group vice president of Finite America's. Thank

you very much for being on the show today.

Speaker 5: Man, thank you very much.

Speaker 2: Great, appreciate you very much.

Speaker 5: Thank you, Tanya, thank you very much. I appreciate you all.

Speaker 2: So we're going to hear from our great sponsor Bridge Stone and we'll be right back. Thanks great.

Speaker 8: Making the life full of memories one road trip at a time, that's what really matters. Rich Don weather Peak

Tires for the seventy thousand mile women at Warranty, Go Tigers, thank.

Speaker 2: You, thank you you so if you if you heard that, go Tigers, Yes, so Tigers, Lions. They win today and

they're in the championship or yes, yeah, pretty amazing. Okay,

so a lot of things have been going on, one sort of sad thing, but it does have an automotive connection that in the past two weeks we've had two hurricanes and they've been nick golf and they've been bringing in lots of seawater, and seawater is not very friendly to EV's. So, Mike, what's your sense of EV ownership

in places like Florida.

Speaker 4: I mean, well, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, you know, with any news reports. There was

a there was a like a viral clip from North Carolina where someone's rivan was just like caked and mud. Yeah,

it had been moved, you know, like one hundred and fifty feet and he said that it's still ran. I

didn't see it move, you know, in short video. So

there is some advantage that you know, Okay, Yeah, it's it is mostly sealed and once the water's gone away, you're not even flooded the engine with water. But seawaters

are different. East. It's really bad for electronics, so it's

bad for any car. But as we've seen a few

times with evs, is you put enough seawater in them, or you combine seawater with other damage and then it can cause a short. So that part, I mean, my

instinct is it's not going to be that much worse than any other any other seawater flooded car. But I

think there's another interesting piece with disasters in that. Again

it's a mixed bag. But you have the thing with

EV's is you have all this power and a lot of them will at least do you know, a one ten, we'll plug and some of them will do two twenty or even home backup. So in Florida right now you

have people looking at you know, a week or more of no power, you can get a few days out of You get a few days out of your EV.

And you know, right now, I assume all the gas pumps are closed, so you only get a few days.

But it's more than zero.

Speaker 2: So all right, So so so we're talking in the one hand. I mean, so there's been reports of over

a dozen EV fires have been a result because basically what happens is that in the sea water, as you say, it shorts out and there's this concentration of energy and then it lights on fire. And so I was looking

and this is according to Tesla. Okay, so this is

from the Tesla site and they have a section on their side of what to do in case of emergencies, and it says if the battery catches on fire is exposed to high heaters generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool a battery. It can take

between approximately three thousand and eight thousand gallons of water applied directly to the battery to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire. A normal car is like five

hundred gallons to a thousand gallons. So I mean suddenly

we've got all this water that they need to apply to the battery. Battery fires can tamp for twenty four

hours to cool. And it also says that there's an

the issue of possible re ignition of these fires. And

so some fire people in Florida are concerned about EV's being parked in lower parking decks that are just sitting there, you know, getting the sea water, and how would you feel about being in a place like that.

Speaker 7: Well, I think we're gonna have to wait and see what happens, you know. I think there's still a lot

about EV's and home charging and batteries and even even the home charging. How are they going to how is

it going to survive if it's outside your house, you know, if you're in a hurricane.

Speaker 3: Is it going to come through a hurricane?

Speaker 4: Okay?

Speaker 3: Right, So cyber truck followed me up here on the road though today.

Speaker 2: So really they're out there. Yeah. So speaking of speaking

of batteries, General Motors announced that altium is going to be put behind them the name. Yes, so what's happening there?

Teams seems more than name to me.

Speaker 4: It seems to be mostly named that they're retiring the name.

They also announced that they'll be building more l FP so iron fossil with them iron phosphate cells, which are slightly heavier but have a really good longevity and less cheaper and don't fuel, don't provide free oxygen if they have the thermal event, you know, so the fire is might take a little less water if that happened, And and that's all a good move. And that's all I

think smart on GM's part is you know, any any company is going to adapt and change as the technology evolves.

The ultium thing is fascinating to me in a slightly cynical way, in that GM has this history of naming things and branding things that are maybe unnecessary, you know, like it's not going to be energizer, it's not even going to be VTech. It's just the battery, Like the

do you do? People really want to know, like, oh,

well this one's got altium. Well all of the GM

cars have that, So why are you Why are you adding another name to confuse people with And they do that, and they have this big rollout and they say this is this is the solution and this is the future and it's great and then you know later they go, we're doing something different and we're not calling it that anymore.

It's like all this wasted effort or maybe you know, well maybe it speaks to some other cultural sickness or like need to be able to sell things internally, but it's it's like yet another piece in this graveyard of GM brand names that you know, I don't know was necessary in the first place.

Speaker 2: Well, Tanya, you're a marketing person, what's what's the take.

Speaker 7: I don't know that the average consumer really got anything out of all Tium versus any other brand name of battery.

I mean, EV is an EV and they don't care nobody's buying EV's based on They're worried about range. They're

not so much worried about branding. Range anxiety is still

a thing. And we're talking about the hurricane. And if

you're trying to evacuate and you know your navy, does that become an issue?

Speaker 4: Yeah, And so I guess what I'm wondering about it is is that.

Speaker 2: You know, Mike pointed out that you know, they spend a lot of time, effort, energy, and money to do this branding, and that all seems to be like never mind.

Speaker 4: I mean, ultimately, I think it's positive because it allows them to just say the make them craft the message wherever they need it to be. This is the car's range,

this is how far it goes, this is how fast it charges. If they want to dive deeper, they want

to get into the specifics of the chemistry or the size of the pack or the configuration of it, they can do that. But that's that's more of a niche conversation,

whether it's industry or fans or experts. So yeah, ultimately

it's good. But like I said, it is it is

kind of strange. And and you know, by contrast, you

look at they put all this effort into Ultium and they brought out the Hummer. You know, they first showed

the Hummer many years ago, and now they're essentially using the same kind of architecture impacts. They haven't iterated a

ton and uh and you know, the I think a big conference there would be Hyundai with the Kia and the with k EV six and the ISOC five. They're

doing a mid cycle refresh and they added like seven kilowatts to each pack. Like you know, they're not bothering

with the branding. They're not saying we have this, you know,

this is the way we're going. We have this many

packs and this kind of modules. They're just saying, hey,

here's some more battery. And that's you know, again, the

customer is going to look at what's the range on this, We're not going to look at what's the branding or is it a pouch sell or any of that.

Speaker 7: And Jim said that the investor at the investor conference that the LFPs would combined with other changes that would ultimately cut six thousand dollars from the from the cost of making evs compared to the current models. I think

customers are more concerned about cost than branding.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 2: The thing that I sort of wonder about is I'm reading into this though that it seems that, Okay, when all teams started out, they're saying, Okay, we're basically going to standardize on this. Okay, we're going to we're going

to standardize on this approach, and we'll be able to grow it for the hummer and we'll be able to shrink it for the equinox, right, I mean, and but we would be able to achieve scale because these things are basically all the same except for the size changes.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 2: But now it says, you know, well, we're going to be using different chemistries and we're going to be, you know, using different cell configurations, and suddenly it seems to me that standardization goes out the window.

Speaker 4: I mean, I think it depends on the type of standardization, because if you have you say, okay, we're doing you know, this size module, and each module is this many cells and this much voltage, and we can make that you know, bigger or smaller. That does help you a lot. But

then also you're again you're taking a space if you have modules inside a pack, because you have to you have two layers of packaging essentially, and as you get smaller, which the equinox CV the standard or they kill a smaller range version. And when you shrink if you have

a pack like ultiam is and you shrink it down to a certain size, your voltage is low enough that all of a sudden you're not charging that quickly. And

so there's the way. That's what I'm saying is there's

a trade off to all of that. So like, yeah,

you want to have a standardized whether it's a pouch or a cylinder or a prismatic cell, that's kind of that's usually useful because then you can change how you stack them. But you know, any further standardization than that

you get into some serious trade offs one way or the other. And I think they're just realizing, like, yeah,

we need to tailor this a little more specifically to each application, and maybe the altium design didn't give them that.

Speaker 7: I give Jim credit for admitting that maybe there's a better way and not feeling like they have to dig into what they started.

Speaker 2: So your point, if we think about it, like in terms of internal combustion, I mean, so the HEMI but a great name even echo Boost had its moments right that people would say go into a dealership and say, I want to I want to get one of those tauruses with an echo boost engine. But EV's maybe a

different beast.

Speaker 4: I think at this point. Yeah, And I think the

engine actually kind of is an interesting analogy of like, you know, at some point, you know a V eight works for a V eight and a four cylinder works for a four cylinder, and you you know, yeah, you can do things where GMS V six is a perfect example.

It's the vight with two cylinders lopped off essentially, But you don't want to go back to the old Jaguar Land Rover V six, which was the V eight with you know, the same block as a V eight with a V six, but just didn't have two cylinders board out.

Like so I think that's reduced costs, Yeah, but you're wasting space and you're adding weight. And I think the

same applies to batteries, is that you want to standardize what you can and then you know, tune it specifically to the car.

Speaker 2: Otherwise, Tanya, are you seeing the messaging from OEMs in the EV space that is resonating sufficiently with people who might be interested in buying an EV.

Speaker 7: I think it's gotten better. I think they've figured out

they there's still a lot of education that has to happen.

And that's why putting your money on something like ultium when people are still not even you know, convinced that they should buy an EV, they've kind of taken it step back, you know. Range anxiety is still a thing.

Charging anxiety.

Speaker 3: There's there's so much education.

Speaker 7: You know, people don't realize you can't charge to one hundred percent. The last twenty percent is slow and you really,

you know, I've had to educate people myself at charging stations who body these and they're like, why can't I get it to one hundred percent?

Speaker 3: What is wrong with this charger?

Speaker 4: So and I think I think that we've seen, i would say, especially in a soft market, more momentum than you might have expected at certain parts this year. And

again GM being example, they they're sales, the products are finally here, the sales are off. Surely that you know,

might level off a little bit, but I think it does.

You know, all of my cynicism about ultium aside, I think it does prove out that there was some validity to the strategy of you know, let's get a good product in the market that we can play at a good price and a good volume. So and and even

aided by the Testia model free no longer qualifying for as much tax credit as the equinomics so so.

Speaker 2: So, to what extent do you see evs being driven in large part by subsidies?

Speaker 4: I think I think if you you still look at at the way they're priced, you need the subsidy to get you know, anything close to parody with a gas vehicle.

And and again I think some of its customer familiarity, but some of it's some of its reality or you know, practical reality of you know, you might not pay more, especially if you're looking at a daily driver, family car or like under fifty thousand dollars. So yeah, I think

they need the subsidies. It's still a challenge. And then

the other side of it is, you know, the ultra luxury performance like millions of dollar stuff. People are saying,

I don't want the ev I want all the tactile things.

Speaker 5: Really.

Speaker 4: Yeah, the roomats is a good example where they're they've they've said their next car is actually going to have internal combustion as part of it, because that's what the ultra rich are saying, is they you know, evs are quick, that's a cool trick, but they want they want more feeling.

Speaker 2: The remagnevia that they have now vera, I think vera okay, And presumably the next one would be a hybrid. Yes,

So so speaking of hybrid's, Tanya, how are you seeing that play out in the in the marketing space.

Speaker 7: Oh, they're They're more popular than ever. People are realizing

that they're they're the best of both worlds. You know,

you get the mileage and without the sacrifice. So and

GM is even you know, reevaluating, which is pretty remarkable.

Speaker 2: What I thought was remarkable was a report that came out that people seem surprised when Akio Toyota said that if the industry switched to all evs that people would lose their jobs because people who worked on engines would no longer be required. That's a surprise to anyone.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's learned somewhat specific to the Japanese auto industry, where those supplier chains are very closely tied to the OEM, and they even maybe feel some responsibility to takeing care of those companies and there is some truth.

It's like, well, if we stop making this, then that whole business doesn't have their primary purpose. And I think

there's I think it's thoughtful to say we need to think about this and get out ahead of it. I

mean a primary anecdote would be, you know, engine parts companies, not necessarily in Japan, but you know in the US some of them have pivoted over to medicine because who else needs precision metal machining medicine And you're going to start losing some of your internal combustion business. So again,

you got to find a place for it. So I mean, yeah,

it's kind of obvious, but also it's you know, it's better to plan ahead than to just let it they're away.

Speaker 2: Well, I mean this could have mean some huge implications.

I mean here in the United States in terms of jobs, as well as in Europe, where you know, a lot of precision engineering went on in machining a different, different requirement for producing vehicles.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: I think so. At the same time, again, a lot

of the the the vibe and the reality of EVS is they're coming. Hybrids are gonna be a bigger piece

of the pie than maybe we thought, like eventually we're probably still going to electrification, but that's that's ten twenty years off. We'll still be making internal combustion cars for

a while, if not indefinitely, depending on again, like where the carbon emissions go, how plugins play out, how e fuels play out. So I think it's more more of like,

it's not a hurricane coming through and wiping things out, you know, to borrow from this week's news. It's more

of like it's you know, it looks huge and it's coming, but it's it's a little ways off and there's time to adjust.

Speaker 2: So we're doing this live on Thursday afternoon Eastern time.

In a few hours Pacific time. Elon Musk is going

to make an announcement. Now I don't want to necessarily

read anything into this, but he's doing this at the Warner Brothers studio. Okay, it's a movie studio where they

make things magic. So what's gonna happen there tonight, Mike.

Speaker 4: I mean, supposedly there's a robo taxi announcement, and.

Speaker 3: That makes sense, you can you can tell me.

Speaker 4: I'm not sure if this means that they'll have a new car or it's just something related to current product.

I will say I recently got a ride from the Tesla showroom in Lower Manhattan to LaGuardia in a Model X with the latest version of FSD, and the driver was hands off like the whole way. He made a

couple of adjustments on the wheel with the buttons, but didn't grab the wheel. And again that's that's one time,

and it's you know, slower speeds and a pretty hectic traffic, but you know, not anything really unexpected, and the person was there to do it. So as much as uh,

it's not is capable, you know, maybe they I think I think Tesla gives a wider boundary to the FSD system than they should, and they don't necessarily you know, there's a little bit of hand waving as to whether or not someone needs to have their hand on the wheel or not and the driver monitoring. So I think

they are they don't play it safe enough there. But

it's also has a lot of capability and and maybe they will be trying to use that. So that's my

guess is maybe you know, rolling that out in Model three and some sort of like Uber Lift kind of modeled but Tesla branded, so you.

Speaker 2: Don't see a different vehicle entirely, no pedals, no steering wheel.

Speaker 4: I mean, WEIMO isn't ready to have a car with no pedal and no steering wheels. And they've been, as

far as I know, fairly responsible and doing a lot of testing on it. I don't see how Tesla could

do that safely, now, do you think, Kenya?

Speaker 7: I agree, I don't think we're ready for it. I

don't think consumers were ready for it. Nobody's going to

get into a car, But I mean.

Speaker 2: Is it going to be sufficient for the market if Tesla doesn't show something that is basically a moonshot?

Speaker 4: I mean, I think the rationality with Tesla in the market has left the building a long time ago. And

also Tesla's been making has made a lot of well elon specifically, it's made a lot of empty promises for a long time. So I would say this isn't the

one that's going to catch up with him.

Speaker 2: Well so on the subject of this vehicle. So according

to Reuters that in twenty sixteen he predicted drivers would be able to summon their vehicles from across the country within two years. That would have been twenty eighteen and

twenty nineteen. He predicted Tesla would produce operational robot taxis

by twenty twenty, and then the announcement of this week's robot Taxi reveal came on April fifth, the day Writer's exclusively reported that Tesla had abandoned plans to build a twenty five thousand dollars electric vehicle for the masses, known effect internally as the Model Too, initially sending Tesla's sharers down.

Musk responded by posting a new tab later on his ex social media platform, Robotaxi Unveil on eight eight, which had been August eighth. And it's October, isn't it.

Speaker 7: Yeah, it's October. Yeah, he's an optimistic guy. You know,

you got to give him that.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's who knows, you know. I

don't think it's fully distraction. There's there's some other storm

waters ahead for Tesla, just in terms of Tesla or Musk specifically, again like the usual SEC and or n hts A things. But I don't know. If I if

I had to guess, I'm just going to say this is standard, Well what is now standard? A little bit

of sleight of hand, some substance, and a few promises that may or that I think we can all be pretty skeptical about being met. So so we go.

Speaker 2: If you if you if you put your previous analysts technical analyst hat on and you look at the technology that Tesla basically is using, which is cameras and AI versus the others like Waimo that is using cameras and rates and ultrasonics and AI, you know, a whole full suite.

What's your sense of A the ability to pull it off about using the additional sensors in B the regulatory acceptance of something that doesn't have you know, the belt and suspenders.

Speaker 4: Well, we have a really egregious lack of oversight when it comes. You know, these companies can self certify for

safe self driving. You know there there isn't enough regulatory

framework for that, so they can you know, they could play pretty fast and loose there. And again you know,

like I said, the one right I had, it looks like enough. But this is this is the thing that

we're uh. You know, this is the tension between Musk's

promises and what Tesla allows you to do in the car and the reality of driving and self driving, which is uh and and why other companies have sort of fenced it into specific scenarios. Is you can't anticipate everything,

and I think in the argument of well it's even even the argument of it's safer than a human is not enough to convince people. So I think I think

that's the issue. Really there is like I'm skeptical of

anyone is going to get there too, like full drive anywhere, anytime sort of scenario.

Speaker 7: There's just too many variables on the road and other drivers.

I mean, if everybody was in that type of vehicle would be one.

Speaker 3: Thing, but they're not. That's not probably going to happen

for a long time.

Speaker 4: And just like brief soapbox of my own two, which is, you know, self driving is solving this problem that is created mostly by cars, but also everything else. It's like, oh,

we spend too much time in the car, so only if we didn't have to drive, or we have too much traffic, or we have too many drivers and all of these other distraction things going on in the car to make the car dangerous. So whether for safety or

for just getting time back, those are two things that we created because of cars. And I'm not saying it's

going to make any difference or it's going to change things.

But a lot of the things, a lot of the promise of self driving is solved by things like public transit.

Speaker 2: Well, you know, you mentioned Weaimo, and so Weimo and Hyundai announced that they were going to be they formed a partnership. They're going to collaborate and that Ionic fives,

which are electric ev electric evs electric SUVs which we built in Georgia, will get the sixth generation Waimo self driving system and the plan is to roll that into the Weimo fleet. Do you see something like that catching

on even more? I mean, Waimo seems to be the

company that is ahead of the others in terms of autonomous driving. I mean they're collecting fares on the road

right now, so apparently they're doing okay, I.

Speaker 4: Mean yeah, I personally, I think I think there's some appeal there if you look at you know, if you look at any of the hands free driving systems like Super Crews or Forwards Blue Cruise. Every time I've used it,

it's you know, at first, you're like, all right, this is great, it's a novelty, and then you're like, okay, I'm a little bored because you're just sitting on the highway, But I still use it because it's just nice to take away that cognitive load. And again, you're you use

it in the right scenarios. You know, if if it's

shutting off a lot, or if it's just heavy traffic, or it's a scenario where you want your own control, you don't do it. But I would say any I'd say,

we've established that automakers want to make that, and there's at least some customer demand, and I think the more you can increase that envelope of usability and safety, people will It's at least an advantage from marketing perspective, and I think people would be into it. I mean, there's

again there's there's plenty of time when you know, yes, you can't anticipate every scenario, but you can also be like, look, I'm stuck in traffic and all I'm doing is creeping forward, Like the car could do this, and then I could, you know, catch up on emails or read something or do something else.

Speaker 7: But there's such a resistance even with adaptive cruise. I mean,

I have friends who won't even use adaptive crews because they just they don't trust it. They don't trust that

it's going to stop in the stop and go traffic.

I think there's still a huge learning curve with customers and feeling secure.

Speaker 2: So, I mean, the automakers have a lot on their plates right now in terms of competing with one another, in the potential competing with Chinese brands. And we've heard

twice now that the consumers need more education on electric vehicles and they need more education on auto vehicles. Yes,

who the hell is going to do this education?

Speaker 7: That's that's the problem. Everybody's kind of passing the book.

You know, is a dealer who teach customers how to use the technology in their cars, or or consumers on their own to just google it and YouTube it and figure it out. Or you know, nobody really is taking

responsibility and will they they should if they want to sell the technology.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I would say no. I mean, if

we've looked at uh, automotive crashes in pedestrian dress are on the rise, and that the laugh not laughing matter, it's.

Speaker 2: Just it's true.

Speaker 4: And yeah, we're putting in these huge screens that your eyes are drawn to, and you know we still have you still have your phone, like yes, there's choice. But

if you drive a car with no screens versus a car with screens, it is undeniable that you are your attention is not grabbed as much by the outside road.

And yet automakers are saying, well, the car is a device or people want this, and it's like there is.

They haven't demonstrated any responsibility thus far.

Speaker 3: Give link in credit.

Speaker 7: At least they've got the screens, you know, out of reach and right below the windshield the new Lincoln.

Speaker 4: And that does act more as like a giant instrument cluster.

Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, they're acknowledging it that there's a problem.

Speaker 2: Of course, you're road and tracked driving enthusiasts, so we know that you want to have a more fundamental vehicle to drive.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and I have I have enough. I have a

few cars of my own lithno screens, So I get a little bit of culture shock switching between the two.

Speaker 2: All right, So I want to end this on something that that I'm rather amusing and I hope others will as well. It was announced today that Segue nine Bot

has established a strategic partnership with Mopar so select Segue products, including its popular electric scooters and go kart are now available to Mopars, authorized Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat Jeep and RAM dealers in North America. So it's not the classic segue

that the the two wheels that when they remember from the days of Dean Cayman. But it's a scooter in

a little cart. Isn't this wild that that is going

to be sold in more parwer dealerships?

Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess you know, any important a storm stay.

But I mean also I think the there are parts of the country where you have these you know, planned communities or hoas where that are kind of sprawling and people regularly have go carts and you know, drive to the pool, or drive the community center, or drive to the retail district. And that's it seems seems to be

like a huge and growing market. And you know, if

you have a golf cart, capture it and same thing.

And I mean maybe maybe there's a piece too of like ah, you're you're finding a point of purchase, right, like there are people that maybe want one of those stand up scooters, but they never come across them. Well,

you're buying your car, you roll it into the payment plan, you can stash it in the trunk, her in the back of your truck and you know, get from the tailgate to the game or whatever last mile things you need to do. I would say, sure, I can't say,

I can't say whether it's great or bad, but it seems to be worth a try.

Speaker 7: All the automakers are professing to be mobility companies. This

is just another example of that. They're showing a different

use of different you know, there's there's people who will need those and buy those and might as well.

Speaker 2: Do you think it's a good partnership.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well known brands.

Speaker 2: You know.

Speaker 4: I would say that the problem with any of these last mile mobility things like scooters is it's very difficult to improve on the functionality of a bicycle, you know, like the use case for when a bicycle isn't the perfect thing to go short distances is a lot smaller than maybe people are willing to accept.

Speaker 2: Well, we'll see how that works out. And I'm sure

that any side to increasing mobility would probably be a good thing, and.

Speaker 3: So and helping stillantis bottom line, Yeah.

Speaker 2: I think they have to sell a lot of scooters to to make that happen, So all right. Kanye Goazac

of Media posts. Thank you for joining us again, Thank

you for having me much Mike Austin, Road and Track.

Always good to see you, glad to be here. Thanks

so read their publications, support their work, and uh we'll see you all next week.

Speaker 1: Out Online after Hours is brought to you by bridge Stone Tires Solutions for your Journey

AAH #714 - Infiniti and Beyond

Nissan Maxima

Ford Edge

Nissan Pathfinder

Tesla Model X

Porsche Cayman

About this episode

Original notes