AAH #732 - LG Pulls the Ripcord on Battery Investment

Speaker 1: Everybody, thanks for joining us for Outline after Hours. Got

an interesting show today. We're going to be talking a

lot about batteries for electric cars. That's the first half

of the show. Second half of the show we're going

to be getting into the news of the week and some of our insights as to what's been going on.

But Garry, why don't you introduce the audience to our guests here?

Speaker 2: All right? And just so people are not unduly concerned

that I'm not asking you a question about some historical fact, we will do that. We will do that as the

show goes on. We will for I don't want people

to just panic and drop their computers on the floor and the show. So our very special guest is Bobb Lee,

who heads up LG Energy Solutions here in the United States and perhaps even broader than that. So Bob, welcome.

And because because you're all about batteries, we brought in Mike Anderson, who is the editor of Battery Technology magazine, so he knows more than John and I put together.

Speaker 3: So I doubt that, but it's great to be here.

Speaker 4: Thanks Mike.

Speaker 1: I assure you when it comes to batteries, you definitely do so Bob I mean, what is going on. I

mean just a few years ago, it looked like evs and electric car batteries we're going to be off to the races, and now it's like it hasn't materialized. What

do you see going on right now and for the rest of the decade.

Speaker 5: Well, so I think, yeah, the movement toward electrification has been very dynamic. So I think five years ago there

were very optimistic forecasts. Many of the OEMs came out

with strategic plans that you know, targeted fifty percent plus conversion to evs by twenty thirty and I think if you look back at the last couple of years, that conversion didn't happen as nearly as fast as we all expected.

Speaker 4: I think there are several factors behind that.

Speaker 5: I think you have you still have some infrastructure issues in terms of the charging infrastructure to help people feel more comfortable. There's range anxiety issues. So there are a

number of different I think things that we need to overcome as an industry in order to really unleash. For me,

the biggest thing, it really comes down to total cost.

So I think if we as an industry put out products that are faster, cheaper, more durable. That's what we'll

really unleash the market. I believe that's what's happened in

China now two years ago. The average EV price in

China is now already lower than the EV price I'm sorry, the ICE price, And you can see the market is really converted in China. I believe that that's possible in

the US and that will happen. But at the end

of the day, we as battery makers, we have to make our products lower cost. OEMs need to refine and

optimize vehicles so that we can bring down the cost, and I think if we do that, then.

Speaker 4: We'll be able to accelerate.

Speaker 5: But you know, having even said all of that, I think despite the fact that we haven't grown as fast as what we forecasted, the fact is the market in the US is growing right. It's growing at ten to

fifteen percent a year, which for most manufacturing industries.

Speaker 4: That's a pretty robust growth.

Speaker 5: So I think, you know, when you talk about our slow down, it's only relative to very aggressive targets that were set several years ago.

Speaker 4: I mean, we're still growing.

Speaker 5: We're still trying to ramp up our operations to meet that level of growth. And we're also just planning with

our customers to deal with this new reality and make sure that we're all right sizing.

Speaker 2: So, Bob, give us a sense of your company. I mean,

I was surprised when I read that, you know, you have jvs with General Motors, Honda, Hoyndai, got contracts with Rivian.

I mean, you guys are quite quite a power in this in this field. I mean, what's the extent of

your business in the US.

Speaker 5: So LG's been in the lithium ion battery industry for over twenty years. We've been invested in this industry going

way back to when the first batteries were developed for cell phones and.

Speaker 4: PCs, laptop PCs.

Speaker 5: This is going back twenty thirty years now, So we've been in this industry a long time. We've been the

market leader. We are still the market leader in this

industry outside of China. So I think if you look

at the markets where we compete in Europe, in North America, in Asia, we do very well both with automotive but also with other We're one of the largest suppliers to Apple, for example, so we.

Speaker 4: Have a very robust portfolio of products.

Speaker 5: We have market leadership I think in all of the markets that we operate in, and I think, as many people know, there's some restrictions in terms of non Chinese players being able to access the Chinese market.

Speaker 4: And that's what I think challenged us in this.

Speaker 5: Global market since our main competitor outside of the markets we live in happened to be bigger than us, just because the Chinese market is so large.

Speaker 4: We currently work with.

Speaker 5: General Motors stillantis, Honda and Hyundai as a joint venture.

Here in North America. We're the largest supplier to Tesla

for their cylindrical batteries. We've recently announced in business with Toyota,

which is the leading.

Speaker 4: We am globally.

Speaker 5: So I think, you know, we've gained the trust of the automotive industry, and we've been very fortunate to do that.

I think one of the ironies of some of the challenges in our growth right now is it's actually caused our customers to want to work with us even more because they want to work with partners that will be here for a long time, that will be stable, and that can be you know, a stable over the long run.

Speaker 4: And so we're one of.

Speaker 5: The few players I think uh customers seeing that light and so we've been able to actually generate even more opportunities with our customers, and I think we're really grateful for that problem.

Speaker 1: You know, we still have a lot of execution.

Speaker 4: To do in North America.

Speaker 5: We're putting up eight plants here in North America, seven in the US, one in Canada. And these plants are huge.

They're you know, four or five billion dollars. I tell

people that, you know.

Speaker 4: They fit about eighty football fields in terms of the footprints.

Speaker 5: So these are big operations to get up and running, and I think that's still our main focus. We're very

committed to the US market, and despite some of the near term you know, policy changes and some of the I think the ups and downs in the market, we're still very bullish on the US market in the long run, and we feel that we're going to be the market leader here.

Speaker 1: Let's talk about specific battery form factors. Then you mentioned

that you're the largest supplier to Tesla and cylindrical batteries.

Where do you see that going. I mean, we're seeing

stuff coming out of China that's prismatic. For example, is

there going to be a dominant form? Do you see

a trend going one way or the other.

Speaker 4: You know, it's still difficult to fully predict.

Speaker 5: I've been in this industry now off and on for about fifteen years and even fifteen years ago we were talking about pouch and prismatic and cylindrical form factors, and fifteen years ago actually many people had written off the cylindrical form factor. But the fact is, the global leading

player in EVS uses that form factor, and so now it's become kind of a standard. I would say, if

you look at chemistries again, there have been many chemistries like lto LMO. Now the two dominant chemistries are NCM

and LFP. Again, fifteen years ago, many people wrote off

LFP and thought that that was a inferior technology.

Speaker 6: Is LG doing LFP?

Speaker 4: Yeah, so absolutely so.

Speaker 5: I think, you know, now there's a little bit of a reset going on in the market where we're trying to figure out what is the optimal combination of form factor in chemistry for the various different applications.

Speaker 4: And so on.

Speaker 5: Chemistry, we're looking at our normal very high nickel content batteries, but we have a mid nickel formula formula which is closer to sixty percent nickel, which we think is a very good balance of cost, competitiveness as well as performance.

But we are also we do recognize that there is opportunity for LFP for a couple of different applications.

Speaker 6: Here in the US specifically.

Speaker 5: So we've announced two LFP projects so far. We did

announce a LFP project here in the US, but that's for the ess application energy storage. So we are exploring

LFP opportunities with OEMs in the North American market, but I would say that's still in very early stages. Recently,

we did announce a LFP partnership with Renault in Europe, so, you know, it's something that we have capability in. Again,

fifteen years ago, a lot of people thought that that was not that did not have enough energy density, so we kind of shelved a lot of our you know, technology, and now we're bringing it back for certain applications.

Speaker 4: I think, just to close, we're.

Speaker 5: It's hard to predict everything in the future, but I would say we're trying to maintain certain flexibility in the way we build products that we can have some combination of interoperability between chemistry and form factor which allows us to have more flexibility in our plants.

Speaker 2: So explain. I mean, okay, you guys make all three

types pouch, cylindrical, prismatic.

Speaker 4: We do not make prismatic. Yeah, not yet.

Speaker 2: So when you're talking about the chemistry going into the package, okay, what difference does that make? I mean, explain that to me.

Speaker 5: So when when you talk about these two types of chemistries at MC and LFP, they have very different energy densities.

Speaker 4: As I said, n MC tends to have higher energy density.

Speaker 5: So when you with LFP you have to basically have thinner electrodes, have more and have more sheets of cathode and anode material in order to have enough power.

Speaker 4: In order to do that.

Speaker 5: You basically after the coding process you have a roll press process to squeeze the electrode and you have to do that in a much like you have to calendar it so that it's much thinner. Right, So there are

some different nuances in terms of you know how you how you manufacture and then during the formation process, the swelling of the of the two different chemistries are a little different. So the way you have to have jig

formation when you do or jig the hole the sales while you do.

Speaker 4: Formation is a little different.

Speaker 5: So there are some nuances of differences between the two products system because of the chemistry and the physical characteristic.

But as I said, I mean, we want UH to have some flexibility so we can make LFP into.

Speaker 4: Different formats or n MC into different formats. And and

I think.

Speaker 5: Uh that level of flexibility right now is important because uh.

Speaker 4: You know, the market is very dynamic, and I think.

Speaker 5: Even our customers are trying to figure out what's the right combination for themselves.

Speaker 3: So so maybe it's worth talking about the advantage of l f P since it doesn't have the energy density, although maybe some of your Chinese competitors seem to think they're they're getting it more, getting more density into it.

Speaker 4: UH.

Speaker 3: But what so what makes uh P uh cost? It

makes it that it gives it an advantage for for uh for lower priced cars. And I know you what

you mentioned the E S S use of it, which means what longevity. So help me out here.

Speaker 5: So l f P is UH generally lower cost than n m C for you know a couple of reasons.

So the basic metals that go into l f P is lithium iron phosphates. So iron is a commodity material

that's relatively low costs. Right when you when you have

the n m C, that's a lithium, nickel, manganese cobalt oxide, So there's nickel, manganese and cobalt that go in it, and that's you know, higher costs material compared to you know, iron, and that definitely drives some difference. But I think there's

another element though, which is that the suppliers that do LFP cathode materials and I don't most of them are Chinese players.

Speaker 4: I think they have huge scale advantages right.

Speaker 5: Now over players that are making other materials, and so I think there's a yes, I have to acknowledge there's some fundamental cost advantages, but I also think you're comparing an industry that is, you know, ten times the size of another industry that's trying to get there, right, So it's not a quite fair comparison to say it's just you know, higher costs, So there is some cost advantage.

Speaker 4: I think.

Speaker 5: What I have to acknowledge a lot of the Chinese players is they've done a good job of trying to overcome the energy density weakness in the packaging formats, right, So it's not just the sell but the way they package the cells into the into the vehicle itself. I

think they've done a very good job of minimizing space and making sure.

Speaker 4: That you have a lot more energy in the space that you're given.

Speaker 5: So you know, they've they've done a good job of I think, catching up a lot, you know, in those dimensions.

But I do think you know, fundamentally, NMC is going to have much higher energy density. So when you're looking

at applications that need to be lighter, and you know, this is why for automobiles, since the battery has to go with you, it helps to be light. And when

you talk about things like vertical takeoff or you know, drone type of applications, it's even more important right that you have this energy density.

Speaker 4: The reason LFP makes sense for energy storage applications is.

Speaker 5: Those things do not have to move their stationary so you don't have to worry about the weight and the.

Speaker 4: Volume so much.

Speaker 5: Right, they can be heavier and occupy more space, but you're not carrying it around, you're not moving around, so it's okay. Yeah, And that's why the LFP formulation really

makes sense for the those SS applications.

Speaker 4: But when you're talking about having to carry the thing around with you and and the weight that you know that it entails.

Speaker 5: That's why NMC has been the preferred chemistry by I would say most of the global leading oms up until now.

Speaker 1: How about future chemistries, sulfur batteries, sodium batteries, and then the holy grail that everybody talks about solid state? What's

your evaluation of those?

Speaker 5: So I'm also trying to come up to speed on this topic a little bit. I mean, we've definitely done

our own research on solid state batteries as a as a you know, leading battery player. I think everybody is

doing some beast research. We've also invested in some startup

companies that do solid state So I think solid state is.

Speaker 4: An interesting area too to invest in the future.

Speaker 5: You know, comes with some real benefits in terms of higher energy density, you know, better safety profile. But you know,

I think we still have some technical challenges that have not been overcome.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 5: You have, instead of having a liquid electro light, you have a solid electro light layer, and the you know, basically the transfer speed of ions across that solid electro light is you know, at this point slower in general than.

Speaker 4: Through a liquid medium, and as a.

Speaker 5: Result, you're not able to get the same level of you know, performance on on some dimension.

Speaker 4: And uh, that's what everybody's working on right now. I believe.

Speaker 5: There's been so much investment by both the automakers and the bat the leading battery makers. Let's say you know ourselves,

Panasonic companies like Tesla some song that you're going to have this sum combination and Ctail as well, you're gonna have some combination of the current form factors leading the way until I don't know, twenty thirty. I think the

programs that are coming out right now for sourcing five, six, ten years from now, I think, you know, we can contemplate different form factors in different chemistries, but I think you know, what's going to be in the market at least for the next five years is primarily set. What

I'm seeing right now. The majority of what I'm seeing

right now is still more modest, incremental type of innovation.

I would say the solid state comes a little bit after that. I'm not, despite the hype, I'm not seeing

actual commercial programs of high volume.

Speaker 4: If you hear of any let.

Speaker 3: Us know the number number of car companies ev makers have have said, well this it's it's the end of this year or maybe it's the beginning of next year that they're they're actually starting to produce uh solid state EV batteries at a production level. But there's a demonstration

line at Honda, I think, and things like that. So

they say it's coming sooner, but I don't know. We've

we've heard a lot of promises before on that, right, So and and and I had another question too, which was you talked about the performance challenges of the battery, but there's also a manufacturing challenge too, right, and that they're just a lot harder to uh to make. So

is that yeah?

Speaker 5: I think, Uh, you know what I learned uh with not only batteries, but like display technologies and thin film solar and even some of these very capital intensive process uh technologies.

Speaker 4: Manufacturing is the technology, Yeah, it's not. It's not. There's

no secret. Actually, it's just.

Speaker 5: Trying to produce it in high volumes across you know, large surface areas in a uniform way.

Speaker 4: That that is the trick. I would say. In the past,

you know, one might.

Speaker 5: Design the consumer electronic product or something, and the design is the the real trick, and the manufacturing of it is just a matter of putting it and you know, pushing it out. But with things like you know, batteries

and solid state batteries, it is the manufacturing that's a challenge, trying to scale out and you know try and and coding batteries. I mean same thing like if it's very

easy to make cell you know, uh sell coin size batteries, coin cell sized batteries, but if you're trying to do huge, huge volumes, doing it uniformly so that when you do the roll press there's no little bumps or empty areas.

That that sounds simple, but that that is the winning take that.

Speaker 1: My understanding is that yield is the holy grail. It's

a battery manufacturing And I've also heard that until you hit ninety percent yield, your plant doesn't make any money.

That it did it's but now once you get over ninety percent yield, boom, you become a money machine, so to speak. Does that Does that sound right? That that

kind of ratio ninety percent to really make a battery plant profitable.

Speaker 5: So I would say, you know, ninety percent is a good benchmark. Yield is fundamentally as a very critical target.

Speaker 4: Without giving away.

Speaker 5: Details, I would say all of our plants are operating in a much higher yield, right, they're profitable.

Speaker 3: Well not, don't get carried away.

Speaker 5: But my point was just that ninety percent used to be a good number a decade ago or some years ago.

I would say, Now we're really challenging our plants to be at a much higher number. So we're expecting our

plants to be even north of that after six months.

Speaker 3: Wow, that's that's fantastic.

Speaker 5: So the point is, yeah, yield is really critical. We

really focus on it. And uh, you know, the magic

number on profitability is a little bit more complex than that because there's a lot that has to do with the actual you know, material price and what the original you know margin was that was calculated into the and there's also all sorts of fluctuations and you know, factor costs, So there's a little bit more than just one figure.

But of course markin you know, yield is absolutely important.

If you put in all of that material, all of that labor, and you're throwing away ten percent, right, you're drawing money out the door.

Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very hard to be profitable there.

Speaker 2: Bob, let me ask you, you know, you've been around this industry for a while not just doing batteries and other other products. And the number of joint ventures that

you have with OEMs. Okay, why are they venturing with

battery manufacturers? You know, we don't see this in other

products that go into vehicles. What's what's the advantage for them,

for you, for both for the consumer.

Speaker 4: So I think the advantage for both is.

Speaker 5: This is a very capital intensive activity and so as a battery supplier, you need to have some commitment and you know, in order to make that capital investment to make that whole business case work out. I think for

the OEM's point of view, they want to have certain ownership, optimization and and capability in this space because it's considered very important part of their powertrain. So I think that's

why there's been, you know, a combination of so many joint ventures because it's very important for both companies. It's

a huge financial burden, so sharing that is, you know, made sense, and you know, I think that's been a We've done more joint ventures than most of the other companies, and we've you know, we we think that.

Speaker 4: That's really the best way to hedge.

Speaker 5: The risk with our partner, and we've been we've been very you know, happy with the results.

Speaker 2: So the OI gets a gets a proprietary chemistry and architecture, and that if you're to buy it from another company would be different.

Speaker 5: I would say that we we try to standardize you know, many things across all the plants, just to reduce costs for all of our partners, right, But I would say, yeah, there's a fair degree of customization, whether it's size or or chemistry. And that's one of the benefits of you know,

pouch form factors that the only can really dictate exactly the parameters of you know, the product that they want to get. So yeah, it's it's uh, yeah, you know,

you have to consider all of the trade offs. And

even our customers do that, right because if if there's a certain customization they'd like to have, but it's a unique material or it's a unique characteristic, it's going to increase costs where reduced yield, Right, We'll have that discussion with our customer and uh figure out what's the appropriate product.

Speaker 4: But yeah, there's a.

Speaker 5: Lot of there's a lot of coordination with the with the joint venture partner on what gets produced.

Speaker 1: Absolutely battery swapping. We keep seeing more stories coming out

of China. You know, Neo is the one that that

really pioneered it. But now b y D is talking

about it. Do you think that's going to happen elsewhere?

What are your thoughts on battery swapping?

Speaker 5: So I actually led a business that LG is doing in Korea that does battery swapping, but it's for two wheeler application. There's a standard uh you know, battery pact

that goes into a like an electric scooter, and it's being used more for delivery type of applications. So I

do think there are certain fleet or certain business models where the swappable battery might make sense. But you know,

how widespread will it be? You know, I think there's

some challenges because you need a certain level of interrooperability if you're going to you know, if the market's really going to take off, and I'm not sure you know, if we're going to easily get to that point. But

I but I think for certain fleets or you know, certain applications, if you're delivery company operating a certain area, having a swappable battery makes absolute sense. And if you

take even what they're doing for tuial applications and Neil's already doing this, and actually, I mean if you go back fifteen years, it was the better place. And so

you know, we've had some improvements on some of those ideas, but the technology is feasible. I think the difficulties having

everybody agree what the format.

Speaker 4: Is, and that I see as a very difficult.

Speaker 2: Okay, so this would this be physical format so it would connect or would it also go to the point of view as you were saying earlier about chemistry difference within a cell. So you know, you have a Chevy,

you have a Ford. Okay, let's say they snap in

the same way, but maybe they don't operate the same way.

Speaker 4: No, it would have to be both, right.

Speaker 5: It would have to be the physical connection, but also the uh, you know, the chemical properties have to be within a certain range.

Speaker 4: The reason for that two WHEELAR.

Speaker 5: Application works very well is because they use cylindrical cells, which is a standard format, and so even for our customers, they're able to use our cells, but they're able to use someone else's cells as well. Think the physical format

at a minimum has to be interoperable chemistry. I mean,

there has to be certain parameters where it would be interoperable.

Speaker 1: But just.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean just it's a it's a very challenging road for me to imagine.

Speaker 3: So the two wheel thing is really big in India.

We were talking about India before, I know, for Neo.

But my question about the swapping thing is like, all this energy is also going into making charging faster, and there's been a lot of success at least at the at the product demo level of speeding up charging time.

And the whole idea for battery swapping was so that you don't have to wait for the battery to take you know, an hour to charge or whatever it is.

But if the charging time goes down, then the need for that, all of that goes away.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 3: So I don't know where people are putting their money, but I'd put it on charge.

Speaker 2: Five minutes, swap twenty minute eighty percent charge.

Speaker 3: Well it's going down though, It's.

Speaker 2: Not what I mean. It's so if if it takes

you twenty minutes to get eighty percent state of charge, which is basically where we're at with eight hundred volte charging now right now? Yes, okay, but you know the

physics are physics, so at some point that's going to play out, right, right, So if you have a brand new battery or fully charged battery that you can get installed in your vehicle at one of these swap stations in five minutes. Then twenty is a long time.

Speaker 3: Twenty is a long time, but it's not going to stay twenty is what is what the industry is saying generally.

You know that it's going to be it's it's it's can in some places now, you know.

Speaker 5: So yeah, listen, I think there'll be a lot of different innovations and maybe even competing technologies to try to speed up consumer experience. Right, whether it's swapping or rapid charging.

Hard to know exactly what combination of these services are gonna be you know, the winners in the market. But

you know, clearly we're all trying to figure out how to make make the charging experience shorter, you know, for the consumer.

Speaker 4: And I'm you know, whether.

Speaker 5: It's chemistry to try to do rapid charging, or we you know, work with companies like Neo to figure out how to make.

Speaker 4: It effective for you know, the swappable batteries as well.

I yeah, I don't. It's hard to know what's trying

in the market, that's right.

Speaker 1: Hey, look, we're gonna have to wrap this segment up.

Speaker 6: But Bob, it's been very informative having you here.

Speaker 1: Believe me, it's great to get your insights into where this is all going and what's been going on.

Speaker 4: Thank you very much.

Speaker 5: It's really been a pleasure, really nice catching up with you guys, and look forward to hearing more from you guys.

Speaker 3: Yeah, right, very much. Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1: Okay, take care, and now we get to the part of the show where Gary is got a question for us, all right.

Speaker 2: For you and I So all right, so I'm going to make this all a card for you. You have

you have a choice.

Speaker 1: You have a choice, the easy one.

Speaker 2: You have a choice between a birthday, a technology introduction, or a product introduction. And they all happened on February

twenty seventh, not the same year, the same year though.

Speaker 1: Okay, okay, what should we go with, Mike.

Speaker 3: Let's I think more likely juonder is to recognize a product.

Speaker 1: Then I think you're right, Okay, so product you do is all right?

Speaker 2: So this this vehicle was introduced on February twenty seventh, twenty nineteen, and it started something for this company. And

I know you've driven this vehicle, a.

Speaker 1: New product that was introduced in twenty nineteen, and it started a new business.

Speaker 2: It started, that's one way of looking at it. It

sort of thematic with the show the.

Speaker 3: Child Back for just a Child Back.

Speaker 1: And the thematic to the show. So that's got to

have something to do with batteries, right right?

Speaker 3: Oh man? When when did the.

Speaker 2: When did the model why?

Speaker 4: We should?

Speaker 2: You should like play that music and the Jeopardy music?

Speaker 3: Right right?

Speaker 6: I can't remember when the model Why came out?

Speaker 2: Maybe you'd be better with the birthday?

Speaker 5: Sure, all right, all right?

Speaker 2: Switching as a man who was born in nineteen thirty four, and he is let's say, automotive adjacent but well known within the auto industry. Four So, like we we mentioned,

you know, Roger Penske's birthday. He is not automotive adjacent.

He's automotive centric. Okay, so this guy is automotive adjacent.

Speaker 3: Again' would it be a battery guy?

Speaker 4: Wow?

Speaker 2: These are tough, all right, So we'll go we'll go for the technology. This was this is this was introduced

in February nineteen eleven.

Speaker 4: Oh good, okay.

Speaker 2: And then this is this is this is somewhat thematic okay.

And actually and actually I asked you this question a few years ago and you get it right.

Speaker 1: Oh really wow, thanks Gary. The first electric car, it's

a technology. It's a technology.

Speaker 2: He's going to get it. He's going to get it.

Speaker 4: It's going to get it.

Speaker 1: That's going to be a boss cattering self starter.

Speaker 3: The electric started, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no more.

Speaker 2: Twenty twelve Cadillac Model thirty and the birthday and the birthday.

The automotive adjacent who is very important in the auto industry is Ralph Nader.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, quite adjacent.

Speaker 2: He's ninety one years old. Wow, still like going at it.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And the vehicle that was introduced on February twenty seventh, twenty nineteen, was the Pole Star too. Oh oh my, okay,

so it started basically that was their first EV model.

So there I haven't wow.

Speaker 1: All right, So moving right along, let's start with an electric car company as long as we're talking.

Speaker 2: Alouc lusen Yad Rolinson, who was on the show. Yes, yeah,

we had Derek Jenkins who is headed design.

Speaker 1: And he abruptly left the company on Monday.

Speaker 6: Peter Rolinson.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and my reader, the situation loved to get your guys take it. But I believe the board of directors

informed mister Rolinson that his services were pretty much not really needed any longer. The company's sales have gone nowhere

in the last year. It's burning through cash. And even

though Peter Robinson he's brilliant, I mean, and the technology that he's gotten into the cars and the efficiency of it, etcetera, etcetera, that we all know, is not a marketing and sales guy.

And it seems to me that's what Lucid needs right now, somebody who can move the metal.

Speaker 2: Okay, but don't you just hire a marketing and sales guy and you leave this guy who is like so highly knowledgeable in terms of electric vehicle engineering, who had the idea that they would come out and they would develop technology the likes of which nobody else still has, that you'd keep that guy running the thing, and then you just hire this chief marketing officer and say, hey, some of these expensive air vehicles.

Speaker 1: No, no, that's a great point. But I my guess

is the board probably probably Rolinson said no, no, I'm gonna run it. I'm going to run it the way

I want to run it. And the board said, no,

I think we need a sales guy, and uh, he's not there. I don't believe he resigned volunteer.

Speaker 3: He's not spending time with the children in the garden.

Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's this guy. Uh number one, he

was making a boatload of money. You don't walk away

from that. I mean, of course you get to a

point where money's not the object.

Speaker 6: But I don't think this.

Speaker 2: I don't know that neither.

Speaker 3: But theoretically theoretically right, But.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think this is how Peter Rollinson envisioned his career ending at loose.

Speaker 2: Then no, one never does, right, that's right. None expect

Spanish inquisition.

Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2: Expects the board to tell you you no longer require But you know, it's it's interesting that, as you say, Lucid really hasn't taken off as a company. Now there's

there's the possibility that their SUV the Gravity will make some headway. When we talk to him, and he's said

this on other occasions, that his goal is to have an affordable electric vehicle that would be that would be smaller, you know, somewhere forty grand ish or less. Obviously, something

that has not come to fruition. So you got to

ask yourself Is this indicative of the larger situation that we're seeing in the auto industry visa V electric vehicles or is this specific too, Lucid not getting the same sort of traction that let's say a Rivian.

Speaker 3: Is getting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that that

was my question too, which I mean, they're facing the same headwinds that they're all all the companies are facing now right, is why is this board less patient than perhaps some books?

Speaker 1: Sales went nowhere in twenty twenty four, they sold the exact number of cars that they did the year before, I e. Zero progress And here we've just been talking

that in the US alone, it's the EV segments growing ten to fifteen percent, right, So where's the growth? And

I think that's what the board's looking for?

Speaker 2: Well, you know, what are the things you got to ask yourselves though, that is it possible that at the upper end of the market, which is the place that Lucid played in evs, is that pretty much at a saturation point? I mean we're seeing Mercedes saying, hey, we've

got a new V eight, you know, I mean it's just like, really, Mercedes hasn't done that well with EV's, right, compared to BMW. BMW seems to be doing pretty good

with the TVs, BUTW is more spread with electrification, yeah, versus Cadillacs.

Speaker 1: Making some real progress in the EV segment too. And

so I mean the I mean think about it, the Cadillac Lyric that alone sold as many cars as Lucid did so and and Lyrics sales are growing and Lucid sales are going nowhere.

Speaker 3: But it's the holy grail is the cheap EV, right, the low cost entry level model that that Tesla has been promising, and then and then it sounds like Lucid was trying to get to as well. So so, uh,

we're not there yet. We're not seeing those. You know,

Mercedes Benz just announced this week, I think that they're working on a new solid state battery project. But again,

that's going to be that's going to be for a Mercedes Benz. That's not going to be for that that's.

Speaker 2: Still a science project that you know, they're yeah, they got years.

Speaker 4: To get back.

Speaker 2: You got you got like okay, I if I'm a Mercedes dealer, it's like, yeah, thanks guys, but I've got meanwhiles I need to sell. There is a problem.

Speaker 1: But your question is a good one. You know, are

we hitting a saturation point with EVS in the upper high second?

Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's a good question.

Speaker 1: Go do you think I don't think we're there yet.

I think there's still a lot of growth. And you know,

in the area where Lucid's at, most of those buyers don't qualify for the seventy five dollars anyway, so that Lucid will be largely unaffected by the subsidies going away for for retail sales or or leasing. My guess is

they've had a lot of manufacturing issues. They're they're probably

struggling to build product. I don't know that for a fact,

but it seems to me. I mean, they have a

whole plant in Arizona, Casa Grande, and I I wonder if part of their problem has been they just are struggling to build these things. But the fact of the

matter is sales are dead in the water.

Speaker 2: You know, a week or two ago, Rollinson said an interesting thing. He was talking about the possibility of selling

products to other OEMs. And you know, one of the

most clever things about Lucid is their motor technology. And

remember when when they first came out they said, yeah, you put an overhead in a in an airplane and man, those things are compact and powerful, right, and if they were able to sell those too.

Speaker 1: Well, remember Ashton Martin signed up to get their ev tech, which is another company that which is another company that's right in deep financial trouble right now and going through a retrenchment. I mean, they're they're they're they're liberately going

to cut back on sales and production. And you know

they've got, uh, what's the guy, Adrian Momark, Adrian Hallmark who came from Bentley to run it. He's got his

hands full and and they've essentially, you know, got Lawrence Stroll to step aside and let Adrian do his thing with the company.

Speaker 2: And they've got technology from Mercedes, and they've got money from the Saudist like as it does, you know, I mean, it's just like but again it gets back to Okay, where's Aston Martin play up here?

Speaker 6: Correct?

Speaker 4: Right?

Speaker 2: And maybe up here is.

Speaker 1: Well, look, they spent too much money. They've been trying

to do all these new models and things like that, and rather than concentrate on selling what they've got, which is what they're going to do now and do model variants of existing things rather than trying to spend all this money on new stuff.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's.

Speaker 4: It was.

Speaker 3: It sounds like it was a surprise though to you guys.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely a surprise to me because I mean, Peter Robinson was the face of the company.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's always dangerous to make the CEO the face of the company. Bad things can happen when that happens.

Speaker 2: Yeah, So next week, before next show, there's the possibility that the twenty five percent tariffs on goods coming from Canada and Mexico may go into effect, and any recent Automotive Press Association briefing the Anderson Economic Group said that it would add between four thousand and ten thousand dollars per car assembled in North America. Yeah no, the ten

grand is full size pickups and SUVs. In fact, Pat

Anderson said it might even go above that. A battery

electric would look well.

Speaker 1: So, based on the people I've talked to this week, their read of the situation is what Trump really wants to do is renegotiate the USMCA free trade Agreement early, maybe even this year, and so to get Canada and Mech to cave and agree to do it this year.

He's threatening these tariffs with the promise that if you do redo the USMCA, we can make these tariffs go away.

And so my guess is he's not going to implement these tariffs next week. He's going to say yesterday he

was Yeah he did. I know, but that's the art

of the deal.

Speaker 2: Gary.

Speaker 1: He changing things, so there's total turmoil. My guess is

he'll announce something that will be implemented later this year and phased in over time, and then probably throw out the idea of, hey, why don't we renegotiate this treaty right.

Speaker 3: Now, let's take care of it all.

Speaker 1: It was Yeah, So I mean, not that it's going to happen quickly, but I think it expires mid twenty twenty six or something like that. So he wants to

see this all happen fast.

Speaker 2: So what would be the consequence if you're General Motors or Stilantis or Ford and you're making product on the other side of the border, I mean, what is this going to do for you?

Speaker 1: And uh, you don't want to see this happen. I mean,

and remember it's going to be on parts and components too, not just unfinished vehicles. So right off the bat, everything

that you all your business, your costs are going on and you're going to have to pass that on. You're

not going to be able to eat ten thousand bucks on a full size pickup. You're going to raise your prices.

And what's going to happen. Sales are going to go down.

And then what's going to happen. You're going to go, oh,

we eliminate all over time. Then it's going to be

we don't need the second shift. And now you're going

to start to see layoffs.

Speaker 2: Well, and then then we heard from Stilantis that they basically are putting a pause on their Brampton, Ontario plant where they're going to be building the Compass EV and so on the one hand, you've got the issue of okay, come is you know a affordable jeep, But if you have a terrify on that no longer affordable jeep and it's an EV And if all of the incentives and the build out of infrastructure goes away, suddenly demand for

evs is going to right, what do you see there?

Speaker 6: Nothing but a big mass I look.

Speaker 1: I think Farley came out and said, quote unquote this is going to blow a hole in the industry if this goes through. And I think he's absolutely right, and

I don't think anybody wants to see these terras. There's

this mythology out there amongst Trump supporters that this is going to miraculously result in a lot more manufacturing jobs in the US, and I do agree more manufacturing jobs will come to the US, but I also believe that prices are going to go up so much sales are going to come down. It's going to be a why

there's going to be no increase in jobs.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, the cost of tariffs get passed to the customer.

It's just how they work, right, And guess what, you know, but every every speech before the election was all tariffs.

Speaker 4: I love tariffs, right. Yeah.

Speaker 2: So so some Mike, you know, you're you're dealing with with battery technology all the time, As your magazine title indicates, it's a very imaginative title.

Speaker 4: Yeah, so, what.

Speaker 2: Is your assessment when you're out there talking to people in the industry about the acceptance of evs and the you know, I mean, yes, yeah, it's growing, but I mean it's still under nine percent in the United States.

We're seeing figures from around the world that it's it's going down.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you know, I.

Speaker 2: As LG is in any Korean company, South Korean company.

I looked in to see what their EV sales are in twenty four they were six point one percent of the market, down three point nine percent. So even in

you know, right, we're so, I mean, are you getting any sense of.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yeah, so by the parent company has the North American Battery Show and the Battery Show India, Battery Show Europe, and they get conference speakers that are very very deep, deep into the weeds on this stuff. But

you know, for to make it short, there are a few very specific reasons that make people not happy to buy an EV yet, right, And it's range charging, infrastructure, will it work when it's cold, and will it catch fire?

Those those are those are the four biggest ones, right, and the the the industry players all say we're getting much better on all of these things. You know that

infrastructure is another problem. You know, we can that that's

in this country in particular, it's it's uh, it's not it's not happening. It wasn't happening fast enough under Biden,

and lord knows, what's going to happen now, you know, But in terms of the long term uh uh uh.

Prognosis of people getting electric cars is still still very high, and more and more people are buying them every year.

Speaker 1: Uh.

Speaker 3: It's slowed, but it hasn't gone down generally speaking in this country. So so there there's still bullish on it.

It just maybe not this week.

Speaker 1: But no, we got to talk about Tesla because the ACA in Europe, that's the automotive manufacturing station, right, came out with sales from January. Tesla sales off the cliff.

I mean, they just took a nose dive. If you

look at the total European market, they were down forty five percent. If you look at just the EU, the

European Union, they were down fifty percent. What do you

think about that, Gary.

Speaker 2: Well, I think there are a couple of things going on with that. You know. For one thing, you know,

he's he's done some mid cycle enhancements for his vehicles, but come on, you know.

Speaker 3: They're pretty old.

Speaker 2: And if you're a European buyer of a vehicle, as you well know, the procedure there is not to go and buy a car off the lot. You order your vehicle, right,

and you get it very particular to what you want and how you want it. Right. So you have the

situation where you can go to your local Renault dealer or go to your local Volkswagen dealer or OUTI dealer, what have you, and order this very specifically, and it's going to be something that is going to be new, fresh, you right. And my sense of it is is that

the new and fresh part is being left out of Tesla's off in Europe. So given a choice, you might

choose something else, you know, especially you know there the ideas in Europe the way they're not here, So again there there are more choices.

Speaker 1: But I would think you know, Tesla's direct order, you know, is fits in exactly what you're talking about, except and you don't have to go to a dealer. You said,

at home, you have a cup of coffee, you know, you go through you know, ten screens.

Speaker 4: See.

Speaker 2: But my point is is that all of these other companies are coming out with new products, new, right, not not refreshed right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: So so if you're gonna, if you're gonna be buying something, maybe you say, okay, I'll do that now and and you know, and then there's also you know, and I suspect that this is perhaps overblown, but I do suspect that there's some blowback absolutely on Elon.

Speaker 3: I think it's absolutely.

Speaker 1: I think that's most of it.

Speaker 3: What do you think, Mike, I'm so glad you asked.

I'm phrasing this carefully. You know, if if you make

the CEO and owner of a company the face of the brand, that can be very very good. And it's

been very very good for Elon Musk because he was not only the face of EVS in America, he was also the face of no More Climate Change. Was he

was He wasn't as high as a Greta Thunberg, but he was on that list, you know, ten fifteen years ago.

And now he's going into Germany and supporting very very extreme parties, and he's doing it loudly and visibly, and they don't like that. They tend to not like Nazis

in Germany, and that's what they feel is happening. So

I think.

Speaker 1: Tesla sales in Germany were down fifty nine percent, yes.

Speaker 3: Right right, right? Overall, I think EV sales were down

something like six percent, But for Tesla, he.

Speaker 1: Was no in Europe ev sales were actually up, That's what it was. Yeah, so the total market was down,

Eats were up, hybrids were up, interesting plug in hybrids were not. And then you know diesel and gas No,

they were way down too.

Speaker 2: Okay, look, there is rooting for the hometown team. You

go to Germany and those people want to buy German vehicles.

In a way that that's true. We are are more

adaptive in terms of why Korean vehicles will buy, Japanese vehicles will buy European it doesn't matter. It's must have

been in Germany, you know. And you remember over the years, John,

how many times did Cadillac try to show that they could they could be Autobahn running with the best of them, right, I mean, and it was, it was, and you know they could prove it, but it never turned into sales, right, it just never happened. So we got to take some

of that that. You know, yes, they do have the

plan outside Berlin, but it's still an American company. And

I think that if you're a German you might say I want to buy something.

Speaker 6: There was a poll that came out this week too.

Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember who who The poll came from but it showed that eighty percent of the German public has a negative opinion of Elon Musk and that that's why I think we're seeing Tesla sales nosedive. I know

that they had plants down for some retooling and people have been waiting for the model. Why and it's early

in the quarter and they always run up sales at the end of the quarter. But why these dropoffs.

Speaker 2: Are well see? But I think that there's a you

know that you're correct and saying that that EV sales were up, But EV sales, I believe, are fifteen percent of the market in the EU right now, correct, right right, And what they're supposed to be at in twenty twenty five for the regulations in the EU is twenty percent.

And if you look at the amount of growth between last year and this year, because that's what those numbers were looking at, I mean, it's gonna take them a while at the twenty points.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, they're way behind schedule, so to speak.

And the automakers now are begging the EU for CO two regulation relief because I think the collective figure for this year alone is fifteen billion euros and fines fine, slash, gotta buy credits to a car company whatever. It's still

out the door, right, So yeah, it's you're right. They're

they're behind where they thought they'd be.

Speaker 2: So then the question I have then is, Okay, what happens here? Okay, so, yes, they were eight point nine

percent EB sales last year. We seem to people are

are ratcheting back the number of overall vehicles are going to be sold in this year. Right, they're turning that

that backup. Bit.

Speaker 1: I haven't seen any of the forecast houses back off on their forecast yet. Just wait and say, just I'm

with you on that. Yeah, so that's gonna happen.

Speaker 2: So the then my question then becomes, right, do EV's stay at eight point nine percent or do they go down some? I mean, because you know there was there

was this whole notion that there was a lot of sales of EV's in December because people are like, oh, oh we better buy one while we can still get that since five hundred bucks. Correct, that's right, and you

know that goes away than what happens.

Speaker 1: Well, look, I mean I'm not sure. So the forecast

houses have been saying this year they thought total sales in the US would be sixteen point one sixteen point two million. But that doesn't take into account any of

this tariff stuff. Right when we talked about and guess

what tariff's going on steel and aluminum anyway? Right? You know,

even though I said for cars and the like, it will probably be delayed and it's about the USMCA, that's not true when it comes to steel and aluminum. So

right off the bat, two hundred.

Speaker 2: And fifty eight hundred dollars per gas parked vehicle in up to twenty five hundred bucks on evs according to Anderson.

Speaker 1: Yeah, right, so you've got that. It looks to me

like inflation, based on what I'm reading, is raising its ugly head.

Speaker 6: Again.

Speaker 1: It's not abating, Ie. This FED is not going to

lower interest rates. Ie. There's going to be a lot

of people who were not going to be able to qualify for a loan or simply can't afford one. And

so I don't believe the sixteen point one sixteen point two sitting here right now as things are. I think

it could probably drop now. The only thing is I

think what will happen here is similar to what's happening in Europe, even though total sales in Europe are going down, EV sales are going up. And so even though we

will probably not hit that sixteen one sixteen to two, I think we could see EV's actually gain share.

Speaker 2: Okay. EV sales in Europe went up like this, Hybrid

sales in Europe went up like that.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean it's just a huge difference.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So so to the extent that there is a greater opportunity for hybrids in this market, don't you think that?

Speaker 1: Unquestionably?

Speaker 3: And so this could have so so how.

Speaker 2: Many people are going to basically say, hey, you know, I don't need to buy an EV. I can buy

a hybrid. I'll still be a good green citizen by

doing that.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't even think they want to be green.

There they're looking at that forty mpg number and going that's what I want.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that and and the again they I don't want to run out of charge and not have a place to charge it and to keep it safe. I'll be

able to put gas in it, you know, I mean it's.

Speaker 1: So Mike, what do you think about e reps Extended range evs. Do you think that's going to work? Is

that going to get people to say, yeah, I give up my You know Rams coming out with an e REP are ram buyer is going to go, you know, I don't need that Hammy or that hurricane engine.

Speaker 6: I'm going with an.

Speaker 3: E REP right right, right, yeah, yeah, Well I'm surprised that it didn't work before. I mean, what what was it?

What was it? The vult It's a volt Us.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 3: I saw the vote. This is before I even had

this my current job, and I thought that is so cool, you know, because you talk about hybrids. It's not a hybrid.

It's an electric car that runs our gas. Really, and

what happened, you know, so you know it's beyond me why why it didn't work, why it didn't catch on?

Speaker 2: You don't you think it's gonna be It's gonna be an issue of what the ms RP is for that.

Speaker 4: Oh yes, you know.

Speaker 2: So you you know, somebody's gonna go into the dealership and they're going to say, Okay, I can get this with with a HEMI, which I'm sure that they'll still be offering for the thirteen hundred. Right, I can get

a HEMY, I can get the e REV they still I well, without being a heavy duty would be the Cummings Diesel. Right, you still offer that to it. I mean,

but let's just say, for the sake of argument, you go in there and you get a HEMY or I can get this e REV thing. Okay, that becomes the question.

So if you're a contractor or you know, if you have a lawn service or whatever, you might go for the e OF But if you're just somebody who wants to own a truck, maybe there'll be some that will go for the e REP because it's cool.

Speaker 3: Right Well yeah, but.

Speaker 2: By but by and large, if you're gonna have a Calvin sticker put in your back light and it's gonna be Calvin urinating on a Chevy logo, so you're gonna buy the HEMI Yeah.

Speaker 3: But then the the other thing is that the the the e ravs have the advantages that that like the F one fifty does where it's a rolling generator too, right right, So so you know it's interesting. I I

I watch the Super Bowl bat ads every every year to see how they cover evs, you know, and uh, sometimes it's just oh well it's it's it's just another car ad. You know, this is a high end car

that happens to be electric and then some of them are, oh yeah you can. You can use as a generator

and shine a light on your little girl who's skating on a pond or whatever. It was a couple of

years ago. Uh, you know, but yeah, there are there

are there are actual advantages to evs that the ERAB I think still has. Yes, so maybe that'll break a

couple more.

Speaker 1: Right, and you know, you rate the good point with the Commons engine is that expensive?

Speaker 4: Boy?

Speaker 6: Is that expensive?

Speaker 1: And if I hadn't thought of this until right now, but you know, an e rev has got real good towing capability, It's got terrific range. But you're right if

they priced that.

Speaker 6: Below, Nah, I'm dreaming.

Speaker 1: I mean those diesel buyers they want a diesel, right they you know, yeah, forget what I said.

Speaker 2: All right, so but well before let's before we leave Silantis here. I mean, they didn't do very well financially

and they seem to be in some big trouble. I mean,

what are we are we going to see some changes?

Speaker 1: Well, I think we're starting to see change. They're talking

about all we were resetting and everything's going to be a whole lot better this year. Better not get worse.

I mean, because twenty twenty four was a horrible, horrible year for them. They need a new CEO as fast

as they can find whoever that person's going to be, and that that person has got to be a diplomat, because remember you're dealing with the French, the Italians, the Americans.

That person's got to be a technologist because you've got all this technolog you know, software defined and everything else that's coming into cars.

Speaker 6: But they've got to be able to move the metal.

Speaker 1: They got to figure out how they're going to get sales really cranked back to where they were, because if you look at twenty twenty three, why did Stillantis look good financially? Holy happens fobulous.

Speaker 6: And then the wheels came off the cart and.

Speaker 1: So yeah, you know they how long has Tavara has been gone? A couple of months now? Or and they

they haven't found the replacement. That tells me two things

they're doing. They're being very careful of making sure they

bring the right person in and or they just can't find that person.

Speaker 2: See when when you were describing what this person needed to do, two out of three is Peter Rolinson moving the metal part is that diomatic and man is smooth, he understands all of that technology.

Speaker 1: But that third part, no, no, you need you need somebody who really has got that that gut feel for what you got to do in the marketplace. And and

gut field becomes so important because they're they're fed reams and reams of data, reams of data. And then you

got to have that blink moment where you go. That's

where we're going. And obviously they haven't found that person.

Speaker 2: So if they get if they get a new CEO two years from now, two years, well, Chrysler.

Speaker 1: Exists, Chrysler brand, yes, probably yes, but only as a mini van. So it'll be this minivan.

Speaker 6: It's called the.

Speaker 1: Chrysler minivan, right, but it's sold in a multi brand store.

All their stores are multi brand, and all their stores are multi brand now. But what I'm saying is you

don't need this separate marketing organization called Chrysler. You just

need the stores that happen to sell a the minivan that's called the Chrysler minivan. And you know, don't try

to call it the Dodge minivan or the Ram minivan. No,

it's the Chrysler minivan. But that's all you need. You

don't need this whole organization called the Chrysler Brand Group doing it well.

Speaker 3: If back to your question about finding a new CEO, I wonder what the hang up is if it is indeed that nobody out there really wants the job. I mean,

because twenty three was a good year, twenty four was a bad year. But you can't cost a lantis a sinking.

Speaker 1: Ship, right, you know, It's well if things keep going, they're a sinking ship, keep going like they're going. Look,

there's plenty of people, I'm sure who have called their favorite headhunter and said, throw my name in the ring.

You know, there's I'm sure they've evaluated quite a few people, probably quite a few good people. But so far, unless

they're making a decision right now as we speak, so far the board hasn't found the right person.

Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and I suppose.

Speaker 2: That the risky part of all of this is for several reasons, not the least of which is market acceptance that you want somebody who is going to.

Speaker 1: Be able to stay there for a while, right correct.

Speaker 2: Not coming for a couple of years.

Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, ideally you get somebody in their early fifties something like that that's got a great sales experience, understands technology, knows what it takes to get manufacturing done.

I mean you need to sort of magic CEO who's got the experience to do that. Magic is a keyword, right,

And what I said has also got to be a diploma because you've got to deal with three different cultures French, Italian, American.

Speaker 2: You're the boss.

Speaker 1: They need to do with you, I know, but they got to be raring to go to work for you. Yeah, yeah, Hey,

look we're probably gonna I know, we've got more topics we could talk about, but I think we've burned through our hour here, and so why don't we wrap it up. Mike,

thanks so much for.

Speaker 2: Such a joy.

Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Battery Technology. Yes I want to say magazine, but.

Speaker 3: Battery Tech online dot com.

Speaker 6: Thanks for being on the show.

Speaker 3: It's a really pleasure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so much, Gary, great good show.

Speaker 2: Do it next week.

Speaker 1: Thanks to all of you for having tuned in.