AAH #763 - Scaringe Talks, Tesla Strips, Cars Compete
Annotations will appear as you listen
0:00
70:48
Term
EV startup
An EV startup is a new company that makes electric cars. They are often trying to create new and exciting vehicles to compete with bigger car companies.
Term
software defined vehicle
A software defined vehicle is a car that relies heavily on software to control its features and functions. This means that the car can be updated and improved over time, much like how apps on your phone can be updated.
Term
ICE vehicle
ICE vehicle means a car that uses an internal combustion engine, which is the traditional type of engine that runs on fuel like gasoline or diesel.
Term
EV
EV means electric vehicle. It's a type of car that runs on electricity instead of gasoline or diesel, making it better for the environment.
Term
$7500 tax credit
The $7500 tax credit is money you can get back when you buy an electric car. It helps lower the price you pay for the car.
Term
electrical architecture
Electrical architecture is how the electrical parts of a car are organized and connected. It helps different systems in the car work together, especially in newer cars that use a lot of electronics.
Term
vehicle architecture
Vehicle architecture is how a car is built and designed, including all its parts and systems. It affects how the car performs and how safe it is.
Term
electric vehicles
Electric vehicles are cars that run on electricity instead of gas. They are becoming more common because they are better for the environment and technology is improving.
Car
Nissan Centra
The Nissan Centra is a small car that is usually affordable and practical. It might not have as many high-tech features as newer electric cars like the Rivian.
Car
Rivian R1T
The Rivian R1T is a new electric truck that has many advanced features. It's part of a trend where cars are becoming more high-tech and environmentally friendly.
Car
Tesla Model Y
The Tesla Model Y is an electric SUV made by Tesla. It's known for being roomy and having lots of high-tech features.
Term
MSRP
MSRP is the price that the car maker suggests a car should be sold for. It's like a starting point for how much you might pay.
Car
Hyundai Ionic 5
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 is an electric car that looks modern and has a lot of space inside. It's part of Hyundai's effort to make more electric vehicles.
Car
Chevrolet Equinox EV
The Chevrolet Equinox EV is an electric SUV from Chevy. It offers a lot of space and is designed to be more environmentally friendly.
Car
Ford Mustang
The Ford Mustang Mach-E is an electric SUV that carries the Mustang name. It's designed to be sporty and fun to drive, while also being environmentally friendly.
Car
Rivian R2
The Rivian R2 is a new electric car that Rivian is planning to release. It's designed to be more affordable than their other models, making it accessible to more people.
Car
Kia EV6
The Kia EV6 is a new electric crossover that is fun to drive and has a lot of modern features. It's designed to be practical for everyday use while also being stylish.
Term
full self-driving
Full self-driving is a feature from Tesla that lets the car drive itself in certain situations. You have to pay extra for it when you buy the car.
Car
Chevy Equinox
The Chevy Equinox is a type of SUV made by Chevrolet. It's known for being spacious and good for families.
Car
Tesla Model 3
The Tesla Model 3 is a type of car that runs on electricity instead of gas. It's popular because it's cheaper than many other electric cars, making it easier for more people to buy and drive an electric vehicle.
Car
Toyota RAV4
The Toyota RAV4 is a small SUV that many people like because it's reliable and practical. It's often used as a standard to compare other vehicles.
Car
Volvo EX30
The Volvo EX30 is a new electric car from Volvo that aims to be affordable. However, it has not yet been sold at the expected price.
Car
Ford F150S
The Ford F-150 is a very popular pickup truck that many people use for work and everyday driving. It's known for being tough and able to carry heavy loads, which is why so many people choose it.
Brand
GMC
GMC is a brand that makes trucks and SUVs. They are known for their strong and tough vehicles, often used for work or outdoor activities.
Brand
Chevrolet
Chevrolet, or Chevy, is a popular car brand that makes many types of vehicles, from small cars to big trucks. It's well-known in America and has a wide variety of models.
Term
hybrid
A hybrid car uses both a gas engine and an electric motor. This helps the car use less fuel and produce less pollution than regular cars.
Car
Audi A5
The Audi A5 is a fancy two-door car that looks great and drives really well. It's known for being high-quality inside and out, making it a popular choice for people who want a luxury car.
Car
Dodge Charger
The Dodge Charger is a big car that looks sporty and can go really fast. Now, they're also making an electric version, which means it will run on electricity instead of gas.
Car
Honda Prelude
The Honda Prelude is a two-door car that used to be very popular for being fun to drive. Now, Honda is bringing it back as a hybrid, which means it will use both gas and electricity to run.
Car
Honda Civic
The Honda Civic is a small car that many people like because it's reliable and saves gas. The new versions are also available as hybrids, which means they can use electricity to help save even more fuel.
Car
Kia K4
The Kia K4 is a new compact car that looks good and is practical for everyday use. It's made for people who want a modern car that is easy to drive and park.
Car
Ford Lobo
The Ford Lobo is just the name for the Ford F-150 in Mexico. It's a strong pickup truck that people use for work and everyday driving.
Car
Ford Mavericks
The Ford Maverick is a smaller pickup truck that can carry things like a bigger truck but is easier to drive around town. It's good for people who need a truck but don't want something too big.
Car
Dodge Ram
The Dodge Ram is a big truck that people use for heavy work and towing things. It's known for being strong and having lots of options to fit different needs.
Car
Ram 1500
Car
Audi Q5
The Audi Q5 is a smaller luxury SUV that is comfortable to drive and has a lot of modern technology inside. It's a good choice for people who want a nice car that is also practical.
Car
Cadillac Escalade
The Cadillac Escalade is a big, fancy SUV that has a lot of space and luxury features. It's known for being very comfortable and stylish, making it a popular choice for people who want a high-end vehicle.
Car
Cadillac XT6
The Cadillac XT6 is a luxury SUV that has three rows of seats, making it great for families. It's designed to be comfortable and has lots of nice features inside.
Car
Ford Expedition
The Ford Expedition is a large SUV that can fit a lot of people and their things. It's great for families and has lots of features to keep everyone comfortable during long drives.
Car
Genesis GV70
The Genesis GV70 is a stylish luxury SUV that has a lot of nice features and drives well. It's part of the Genesis brand, which is known for making high-quality vehicles.
Car
Honda Passport
The Honda Passport is a midsize SUV that can handle rough roads and is good for families. It has a lot of space inside for people and their gear, making it great for adventures.
Car
Jeep Wrangler
The Jeep Wrangler is a tough vehicle that can drive on rough roads and trails. It's popular with people who love outdoor adventures and need a car that can handle challenging conditions.
Car
Hyundai Palisade
The Hyundai Palisade is a large SUV that has a lot of space for families and their stuff. It's known for being comfortable and safe, which makes it a good choice for people who need a family car.
Car
Kia EV9
The Kia EV9 is a big electric SUV that has a lot of space for families. It's designed to be eco-friendly and has a modern look, making it a good option for people who want an electric car.
Car
Jeep Cherokee
The Jeep Cherokee is a smaller SUV that can drive well on both regular roads and rough trails. It's popular because it's versatile and has modern features that many people like.
Car
Lucid Gravity
The Lucid Gravity is a new luxury electric SUV that will be very high-tech and powerful. It's made by Lucid Motors and is designed to compete with other fancy electric cars.
Car
Nissan Leaf
The Nissan Leaf is an electric car that doesn't use gas. It's one of the first affordable electric cars, making it a good option for people who want to drive without spending too much on fuel.
Car
Ford Bronco
The Ford Bronco is a tough SUV that can go off-road and handle rough trails. It's popular because it's fun to drive in nature and has a cool, classic look.
Car
Subaru Outback
The Subaru Outback is a car that looks like an SUV and is great for driving in different weather conditions. It's popular with people who love outdoor activities because it has a lot of space for gear.
LIVE
This isn't just a game, it's a once in a generation event. The Harlem Globetrotters 100-year tour, celebrate 100 years of high-flying dunks, 100 years of show-stopping moves, and 100 years of changing the game. Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy. This game is once in a century. Be there at MotorCenter on January 24th. Go to HarlemClobetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100-year tour.
AutoLine After Hours is brought to you by Alex Partners when it really matters and by Borg Warner. The automotive industry continues to evolve and so do the opportunities to define it. Borg Warner, one of the world's most admired companies, gets partners where they need to go. Let's do something big together.
I know those of you who are listening, you don't know there's no John. And as I say, when there's no John, I bring the smartest people I know in the auto industry and you're beginning to think he says it every time. I'm blessed that I know very smart people so I know lots of them. So that's why we bring them to you. So we've got Jeff Gilbert. Welcome back and I show WWJ AutoBeat reporter for a little while, right?
About 25 years on the AutoBeat, about 35 years at the station. So great place. Hold. In other words, we've got young Greg McGlory here. Welcome back, Greg. I like to go by geriatric millennial. That's what they call my generation.
I really see I call myself a digital native senior citizen. So same kind of thing. Wow. And we've got Mark feeling from the free press. Just glad that I remember the way to get here.
All right. So we're going to talk about a lot of stuff on today's show, including the cars that are in trucks and utilities nominated for an act away, which we'll get to later. But it just so happened that all four of us this week,
we're at Rivians facility in Plummouth, Michigan, which I think is a great coincidence. And we all heard our Jason Gringe hold forth. And I've, I've got to say, this is the first time I've ever heard him talk live. And he impressed the hell out of me.
What did you hear them refer to him as the anti-Elon? Anti-Elon, yeah. And I thought that was interesting. And the thing that astonished me was he said that when he was 10 years old, you know, a teacher asked him what he wanted to do when he grew up. And he said start a car company.
And he said that he started the car company the day after he stopped or finished his graduate studies. You know, the man's got a PhD from MIT and mechanical engineering. I mean, it's just like, wow.
So was I just sucked into his reality distortion zone as used to be called with regard to Steve Jobs and was impressed by the man or first realize we all went to some sort of journalism school. So our standards for being impressed are fairly low.
Okay. So, you know, to begin that as Mark said earlier, anybody who can do math could impress us. But no, I mean, you take a look at somebody like that seriously. And think not only did they have the drive, but they actually did it.
You know, you can have the drive and you can want to do it. But to actually figure out how can I make my dream come true. You know, nobody knows at this point whether his company is going to be successful or not.
I think most people put it like right behind Tesla in terms of the packing order of EV startup. They've they've done very good. But just the mere fact that he has gotten this far is extremely impressive.
I think he definitely has a vision not just for like how he wants to make cars, but also what he wants his company to be like I thought half the presentation. He kept circling back to like software defined vehicle software defined architecture. And he sort of said without saying that I think he wants that to be a huge part of the company. Maybe at some point, even the centerpiece that just is.
And I think that makes some sense, like maybe Rivian they'll make cars, but they'll also be this kind of like authority for technology, which could give them a lot of staying power. So I like this vision. I was kind of buying what he was selling.
Yeah, I've seen him once before and I mean he's smart. He's persistent. And he doesn't try to be all things to all people. You know, he's perfectly happy saying, this is what we're going to build.
If you don't particularly care for touch screens, somebody will build a vehicle that gives you other choices as came up in one of the discussions.
And he sticks to the vision. I mean they've run into a lot of challenges, but he's still staying with what he was planning to do a few years ago.
The Georgia plant has been delayed, but he's put together a good bridge plan to get him to when they need that need they still plan to do that.
I thought it was a good presentation. I've always found him to be like I said, you know smart and consistent.
We talked about the anti-Elon. But when you take a look at what we hear from people, you hear from Elon Musk, you hear a lot of theory, a lot of really interesting things, a lot of wild things.
And then when you realize, well, when I didn't get to that, or maybe we could later, but when you get to your right now, your standard auto executive,
well, when you get to send your standard auto executive, you also get to somebody who is very heavily packaged and tries very hard not to say anything about anything because they don't want to make any kind of negative news to move the stock market.
Here we said for an hour where somebody really gave us candid answers, gave us his honest opinion, and it wasn't necessarily wild or out there, it was just, oh, this is what the guy is all about.
So, you know, I hate to say that honesty seems to be something different these days, but in that particular case, I think that's what made it so refreshing.
And I think that one of the things that was propitious in terms of timing was it was after September 30th, after the $7500 tax credits went away.
And our colleague, Joanne Muller, was trying to get him to say, well, things are not so good right now for electric vehicles because of the tax credit going away.
And he seemed non-plus by the whole thing and he just seemed to be basically in one of the things that he said on more than one occasion, which I thought was interesting, if you have a compelling car, people will buy it.
And it doesn't matter if it's an EV or an ice vehicle, if it's compelling, it's got promise in the market.
And when he was talking about his competitors, he didn't limit it just to other electric vehicles, other vehicles of the same size and price range.
Now, he's got a he's got a consistent worldview.
But the other question about the $7500 tax credit, if you look at Rivians vehicles, very expensive.
So I would imagine very few of them and we also take into account the limits on somebody's income to get the tax credits.
I'd like to see how many Rivians were actually sold with a $7500 tax credit because the price of the vehicle and the income of the buyer
make that a fairly small amount I would take.
I think also, he's probably literally every other automotive executive, whether it's good or it's bad, he just wants consistency.
And now that the tax credit's gone and that's the rules everybody has to play with.
And I think that was a message I kind of got from him.
He was like, hey, this is the new challenge.
We plan to have challenges and this is the market, we're going to roll with it.
And of course, it's going to put some pricing pressure on them.
But I think, again, his view was a little more calmer, I guess obviously the Elon Musk tends to be.
Another interesting thing was he was discussing Chinese vehicles and I mean, we've had Sandy even to roll on the show.
We've had the folks from Kerasoft on the show that do tear downs and do analysis of what vehicles cost.
And as Grinch said, look, every car company in the world buys everybody else's product.
He goes, we buy everybody's product.
You disassemble it, you see all the pieces, you see how they made them, you see what they weigh.
And he says, and so of course, you know, the same thing happens with Chinese products and we see that.
And he said essentially, like a part is a part.
There's no magic there.
But he said there are a couple of things and I think that this is worth emphasizing.
And one is that in most cases, these companies have government support.
So their CAP-X is basically zero for the money they get.
And if I can elaborate on why he said that was true, he said that it's the government once auto plants so badly that they will pay for most of the investment to build the plant.
Which means you're coming in and you've got a much lower break even point if you're the automaker.
And he said the other thing was was the cost of labor is exceedingly low and he said in many cases they live at the plant.
They work 10 hours a day, six days a week.
He said that's not likely to happen anywhere else.
I mean, not just here, but I mean Europe is the same thing.
So that becomes a competitive edge for the Chinese.
And so I begin to wonder, I mean, is it possible to compete with the Chinese companies that will have to answer that question?
The question was vehicles from China will always face tariffs to offset those are artificial advantages.
And I think that's probably true.
I also have to say when anybody from one auto maker says these other guys, they cheat, they get breaks on labor, they treat their people badly.
They don't have to follow the same environmental rules as we do.
That is a bit self-serving.
So I put a discount on all of that.
I mean, in the early days of the Chinese auto industry, there were definitely people sleeping at the plant and showering at the plant because they didn't have running water.
But I'd be surprised if that's still the rule for all of the hundreds of plants throughout China.
But I don't know either.
I kind of thought Skurringe's approach to just the onset of Chinese manufacturers with somewhat similar to his approach to the EV market itself too.
This is probably going to happen. It's inevitable.
However, the tariff situation shakes out or whatnot.
And he was just like, we're kind of planning for it.
He didn't seem very put off by it.
And the car companies that make it sound like we're competing so that we can build.
I feel like some of them when they say, we're competing with the Chinese to build a cheap electric vehicle.
They're making people here think, oh, there's going to be a $10,000 electric vehicle here.
And that's garbage. They're trying to figure out how they can compete with vehicles that are built and sold here.
And the Chinese do have some advantages of that because of their clean sheet of paper approach.
But there's an awful lot of noise in the conversation.
I think it's an excellent point.
And I just think that this is a sort of thing that people need to realize that there are elements at play here that go far beyond like, oh, this is a cheap car.
They must know how to do this better than anybody on Planet Earth does.
And this isn't just a game. It's a once in a generation event.
The Harlem Globetrotters 100 year tour.
Celebrate 100 years of high-flying dunks.
100 years of showstopping moves.
And 100 years of changing the game.
Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy.
This game is once in a century.
Be there at MotorCenter on January 24th.
Go to HarlemClobetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100 year tour.
That's simply not what he was thinking.
And it's interesting to get that viewpoint because we have heard the other ones so much.
I mean, it's something that Jim Farley at Ford in particular has been preaching because he, he, he among the auto CEOs seems to be the one who is the most at least publicly concerned about competition from China.
The people from Kairsoft to tear down and report on vehicles had an event about a year ago when they brought a bunch of Chinese cars in that we were allowed to go to and look at all of them.
And my first impression was, you know, the Chinese certainly have a reputation of looking at things and copying them.
They all look like knockoffs of Tesla to me.
They had the center screen. They had a lot of plastic inside.
They were very much like that.
But what I would be most concerned about, and he brought this up as well, is the higher-end technology in Chinese vehicles.
That's the one area where he did raise concerns.
And he did say that within their company, they're working on those technological things.
I tend to think Americans in general are not fond of cheap cars.
So I'm not, I would not be as worried about the low-end Chinese EVs as I would be that they have some sort of technology that we don't have that they can license and make a lot of money.
And maybe spy on us.
And one of the things that he said when he was talking, he said they've got an advantage because they don't have legacies where they have 500 different little computer controllers in each car.
They're able to do it more efficiently, to just have four to do everything.
And that is an advantage. And then he said, and the only other companies out, the only companies outside of China that are doing that are Tesla and Rivian.
And there's a lot of truth to that. But again, there's a lot of self-service as well.
Well, everybody has their own angle, right? Even when Farley is like, you know, saying something, it's like, well, what's he trying to do or what is he trying to advocate for for his strategy.
So I always do kind of take what these guys are saying with like a salt shaker of salt.
Well, I mean, to the point of this, this whole software defined vehicle and then electrical architecture, you know, Greg, you were saying that it was sort of a thing that he was emphasizing.
And given the fact that he got a license from Volkswagen Group for $5.8 billion, it's probably something he has acute interest in.
But I thought one of the things that he said I think was somewhat controversial was when he was talking about it, he said, in his mind, it's inconceivable that a car company could exist in 2035 without having a software defined vehicle architecture.
Again, that's the guy who says all of his vehicles have them.
The guy who wants to sell everybody else on software defined vehicles.
Well, it's also inconceivable that a car can exist in 2025 without air-conditioning airbags and seatbelts.
I mean, this is the way everybody is moving. Software, even today, think of how much of your vehicle is software compared to getting into a vehicle, say, 30 years ago.
In 2035, where it might have been extremely minimal, minimal, but, you know, I'm old so I can make comparisons like that.
And, you know, in 10 years, of course, they're all going to have that kind of software because they needed to compete.
I mean, I can't remember who it was, it was one of the suppliers. I think it was Delphi before they changed their name, who gave this whole lecture on software to find vehicles and getting rid of all the many controllers.
And just having one, and I'm not enough of an old digital native to understand all of the technology, but it doesn't seem like that is unique to them.
It seems like everybody is moving in that direction. So that's a prediction, but I think it's a prediction that's a pretty safe one.
I think also it's going to depend on the degree of sophistication, too.
Like what Rivians doing right now might be more sophisticated than what, you know, Nissan is putting in the 2035 Centrar or something, like it could be like not everything's going to have the level of like things that an electric R1T requires.
So I think, yeah, broadly speaking, sure, but there's going to be a lot of diversification, I think.
And an architecture when it's introduced has got a 15 year lifespan, too. So I mean, there will be every company that matters will have a, will have examples of that.
I think, but the idea that everybody's going to be doing doing nothing, but that is, it's just unrealistic.
But I think, I think you're going to even say today's vehicles are software defined for the most part.
It's a buzzword, but they have so much software in there and so much of what most people want to buy in a vehicle from the entertainment system to the connectivity to all of that is software defined right now.
How many recalls do you hear right now that are software updates? I mean, that that are affect hardware, but they're software updates. So it's here.
And I was having a conversation with somebody and Ford last week about a column where I had, yeah, some of their product to work.
And they raised the point that yes, more and more recalls, you know, every day are over the air software updates.
And I said, well, in that case, tell us and we'll stop giving you our time for this. But the amount is rising, but we don't know that there's a whole lot of, you know,
pay no attention to the recoil behind. I think so switching slightly now it was it was refreshing that he didn't he didn't dump on Tesla at all.
I mean, he said that he thought that, you know, they're big chunk of the EV market was because they made compelling vehicles that people wanted to buy in.
So, you know, proof point is those vehicles, they changed the industry. There's just no denying that.
And the interesting thing is that so Tesla this week announced their economical model Y in model three. So the model Y will have a MSRP of $39.990 in the model three 36 990.
And you know, it just struck me that if this were any other car maker that people would be like up in arms because basically all of us over the years wrote or talked about how outrageous it is that these car companies are taking stuff out. They're decontenting vehicles.
And they're making them lesser vehicles. And so basically you look at the model Y, no panoramic roof. The center console is now open manual just steering wheel fabric seats. No, he did real real, real seats slower supercharging. I mean, decontent vehicles and then selling them for less money. So it's like, geez, isn't this like a car company.
And Tesla has a great tradition of announcing low priced models and never delivering them too, which means I mean how much of this will we actually see how many of these will they build.
It's a very traditional like you said automaker move like can't you just picture get into a model Y for the low low price. It's like on the back page of the free press in the auto section.
And you're like, come on down for this lease deal and you think of like, you know, the traditional OEMs doing that. You don't necessarily think of Tesla.
Tesla is the car company that you order a car on your phone, you know, and now they're like circling that number like here. You can get into Tesla for this price. So yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, take a look at where the competition now is in the EV market. It's in that 30 to 40,000 dollar price range. And this allows them to play in that. Look at what's coming.
I drove the the leaf a while ago. That's going to be about 35, 36,000 dollars. The equinox EV is there. The EV 6 from Kia, the Hyundai Ionic 5 is there.
The R2 that we're talking about coming from Rivian. They're all in there Mustang Machi. So that I think a lot of car companies are seeing post incentives.
That's where the competition is going to be. And you know, you're still going to get be able to buy a fully contented model Y or model three.
But I think they need to be in there to stay.
This isn't just a game. It's a once in a generation event. The Harlem Globetrotters 100 year tour. Celebrate 100 years of high flying dunks.
100 years of showstopping moves and 100 years of changing the game. Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy.
This game is once in a century. Be there at Motor Center on January 24. Go to Harlem Globetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100 year tour.
I hate to say to say relevant because they're still going to be the leader for a long time. But to stay in the mix of what a lot of the entry level EV buyers are going to be looking at.
Well, and the same. I mean, gravity applies to Tesla too. I mean, if everybody that's another if every good point that's up here.
I mean, if everybody else feels like they have to offer to have a price they can claim to sell cars at whether they sell one of them a month or not, but they need to be able to advertise a low price.
And this is just Tesla doing that again, I think. I mean, I don't see them getting involved in a race to the bottom with Slash.
Any. No, but certainly a race to the middle.
Well, it's interesting too that they're decontenting things because a couple of years ago Wall Street was very curious.
What is going to be there? Some 40,000 or $30,000-ish price point. And we're all speculating it's going to be on a different chassis.
What are they going to do? And now it turns out at least if you look at what they did their homework on, it's just kind of a cheaper version of what they have, which to me is a little underwhelming too.
And you guys all probably driven a lot of Tesla's. Sometimes the interiors are kind of basic. They're not great.
You know, like the last equinox EVI drove the last key at EV6. Those are nice interiors. I feel like I was in a model Y and I was like, OK, this is $43,000. This is this is not great.
So it's, I think it's a risky move to the could even damage the brand a little bit.
So I mean, Mark, this sort of gets to your point that you were discussing earlier about how car companies do things that make it seem as though they're doing something when they're really not necessarily doing that.
And you know, I wonder if this is this is sort of Tesla's play in that regard.
I think so. Absolutely. I mean, just like I made a reference to full self driving earlier, how long have they said, give us an extra $10,000 for this car today.
And I will give you a hamburger or full self driving tomorrow. And they have yet to do it.
I'm going to win the reference on this show.
Thank you so much.
My work here is done.
But no, no, I mean, I think very much so. I mean, one, I mean, Tesla they're really good at a lot of things. They changed the industry. There is no denying that.
But they were effectively a monopoly player. And there is no denying economics. They are going to lose share.
More people are going to come in with compelling products like RJ was talking about this week.
So I mean, they're there in a vice and they have yet to demonstrate the ability to do a second generation of anything.
They just keep tweaking the vehicles they've been building and they're really good at it.
But how how long is that a viable strategy?
Unless not forget the Elon Musk factor, the factor that, you know, there were a certain group of people who would only look at Tesla's.
Who may not be as enchanted with Elon as they once were because of different political reasons.
And they may finally go, hey, maybe I'll look at another EV. Maybe I'll actually look at a Chevy Equinox.
Or if I'm definitely an import person at a Hyundai or IKEA and, you know, there are a lot of really nice EVs out there.
And as you brought upgrade, the Tesla interiors are not that great.
I mean, it just, you know, you drive that back to back even with an equinox.
But especially if you drive like a BMW or something like that, which is comparable in price to some of the upper trim Teslas.
But, you know, I don't think the original Tesla buyers cross-shopped.
I think they went EV I want to buy a Tesla.
I think now they're cross-shopping and Tesla has to has to kind of guard against that.
Tesla was like the iPhone basically, you know, the default option for all of us.
And it didn't matter if you got the super expensive one or the cheaper one.
You still had an iPhone.
And that's how I think how Tesla hosted for a long time.
And now they're kind of realizing, wait a minute, we have to like develop a new chassis at some point.
And our cars have looked the same since 2010.
This isn't going to fly.
Got a great idea.
The Tesla Air.
Tesla Air?
Yeah.
Lucid might have something to say about that.
Oh, yeah, sorry.
I forgot about that.
Well, this makes me wonder.
I mean, so not so many years ago, there was a lot of criticism against the traditional car companies,
lauding Tesla because Tesla was doing something new, fresh, and innovative,
and that the traditional car companies were the traditional car companies.
They were doing things the way they'd always done them, right?
But it occurs to me from like what you were saying, Jeff, in terms of, you know,
you get into the interior of a Hyundai for goodness sakes.
And you're like blown away that they have done such a fabulous job.
I wonder whether in some regards, the traditional have a certain advantage in that
they know what the expectations are of their customers when it comes to what an interior ought to have.
And damn it, they're going to put it in there and maybe bring it up a few notches
because they know this is expected of them.
Yeah, well, Hyundai in particular, not just their EVs, their interior has been very nice for a while to begin with.
So, you know, you have somebody who knows how to do the interior of a car
and you talked about Sandy Monroe being here.
I mean, he's the one who said a couple of years ago that Tesla was great with a high-tech stuff
but where they had problems was with the car stuff, like interior or some things like that.
And that's the heart of it.
I mean, we're seeing it with a lot of the little startups that are dropping out.
The big car companies, I mean, Tesla showed them that if you build a fast, beautiful electric vehicle,
people will build it.
You know, the old car companies thought only people who wanted a tiny little shopping cart would buy EVs
and that was part of what they got dragged kicking and screaming into the market.
But once you get their attention, I mean, once that battleship gets turned around, it's still a battleship.
You know, it was interesting that Jim Farley said a couple of weeks ago when they had this accelerate program
at Michigan Central in Detroit talking about how he doesn't see there being much of a market for $70,000 EVs
that there's more of a market for $30,000 EVs, which goes to your point, Jeff,
where the action's going to be, which sort of seems like Detroit may be able to pull something off
that we really haven't seen Tesla do because, you know, going back to Elon,
he was saying they were going to have a $25,000 car.
That was going to be number 25,000.
And, you know, here are the Model 3 at $36,990.
It's a pretty big gap between $25,000 and that.
But you've got to think that they kept trying to make a $20,000 EV or $25,000 EV,
but probably found out that that's one area.
Maybe they couldn't crack the code where, yeah, we can make something and sell it for $25,000,
but it's going to cost us $27,000 to build it so we're not going to make any money on it.
You know, that's always the big issue is can you get the cost down to make money off of them?
And can it still be attractive when you do that?
Well, and why make more of them if you're building as many as you can in selling them all at $45,000 to $60,000 also?
I don't think so.
Jim Farley talks a great game on EV affordability, but a year ago,
people were talking about the affordable EV as being between $20,000 and $25,000.
I'm not saying that's feasible, but that's the price range people were talking about when they said,
we need an affordable EV.
All of a sudden, Jim Farley says that we're going to build an affordable midsize pickup
and it will be better than a RAV4 in every conceivable way,
and it'll be so affordable.
We'll offer it starting at $30,000.
He just moves the goalpost.
And again, how many of the $30,000 ones will they actually sell?
I mean, two years ago, I think we all drove the Volvo EX-30,
and they said it was going to be on sale in six months in the United States for $35,000.
It's been two years and they still have not sold one for under 40 grand in this country.
People talk about affordability a lot more than they do stuff about it.
You talk about moving goalposts.
Back then, when they were talking about that, that vehicle was going to be built in China.
The tariffs were not as high from China as they were then,
and this isn't just the Trump administration,
the Biden administration originally put the very high tariffs on Chinese vehicles.
So, Volvo's hopes for that vehicle was a vehicle made in China,
then they were going to make some in Europe as well.
So, the rules keep changing.
So, I see what finally set a couple of weeks ago,
because I was at that event as well,
as maybe the beginning of the post-EV incentive EV promotion,
that this is where we're going to be,
that we've got a whole different world than we were any year ago,
when the government was promoting EVs,
when everybody was gearing up to build battery plants,
when all of that was happening.
Well, you're not seeing government promotion of EVs,
and you're not seeing government penalties for not meeting certain emission standards,
and you're seeing all of those standards changing.
So, now we're seeing the car companies adapt to new realities.
So, Mark, I thought you were going to go to the initial price for the Ford Lightning.
As you remember, it was $39.99.
That's right.
And then the following year, it was like $54.9.
And so, you know, this whole thing of like,
oh, yes, here's this car that we have for $30,000.
But let me talk to you about one that costs $40,000.
And Jim Friendly is the guy talking about we need the $30,000 EV,
but he's also the guy who sells a whole lot of $60,000 to $75,000 F-150s.
So, that's the only way they can afford to sell a $30,000 EV.
That's where the big car companies, I think,
do have a big advantage as they can say,
hey, we have this $100,000 GMC you can.
And that could balance out if they want to sell like,
you know, some new Chevy electric compact or something.
And also, it's like...
Sorry.
Go ahead.
I apologize.
But I feel like we keep acting as if they want to sell cheap cars.
And they don't.
They want to sell profitable cars.
They get forced occasionally when the market is disrupted
to sell things that are unsustainably cheap.
And that's the reason that American companies kept building lots of
at best marginal compact and mid-sized sedans for generation
and building good pickups because they were able to charge more for the pickups.
That's where their heart was.
They were building the other ones because they were regular regulatory requirements to do it.
And there's not that much of that kind of requirement anymore.
So, I feel like we're talking about them wanting to build $20,000, $30,000 cars.
I don't feel like that's the conversations they're having in the offices.
They want to build cars they make money on.
And I think they're probably pretty happy if their production stops right as
whatever the lowest price they need to advertise to look competitive at this.
I think...
No, I think it's tricky, too, when you try to build a vehicle to a certain price.
Because you probably...
You remember the Mercedes, like, CLA, that first generation,
first Mercedes ever to be sold that I think $30,000 in modern times
are the only one in their lineup at that point.
And how quickly did they get to, like, $31, $33?
So, it's always kind of, I think, a moving target.
And if you look at, like, the average transaction part.
I'm sure you guys all look at automotive news every day.
It's, like, creeping up to, like, $49.
It's $49.3. It's $49.4.
I mean, who can make a $30,000 EV?
It just seems like such a money loser that it's going to be a really tough strategy.
Well, and part of the reason we all love the Maverick,
and I do love the Maverick when it first went on sale,
was that it was out of the factory hybrid with a price just under $20,000,
if I recall correctly.
Well, now the price is just under $30,000.
And that doesn't mean that they're not selling every Maverick they can build.
You know, to an extent, it's the market.
Hey, it's Mike Chase here with Brad Preble from Car Subaru Invereton.
It's time for the 2025 Subaru share the love event.
I started thinking about all the stuff we've done this year.
We did the Subaru loves to learn.
We watched the cars for the Beaver Acres Elementary staff.
Thank you so much.
We still appreciate all the love from Subaru.
We're so excited you guys are here.
And to go pet rescue, we had a puppy fest, a puppy marathon,
so people could come and meet these puppies and adopt their puppies and give them forever homes.
So we brought these lovely puppies to Car Subaru to meet potential adopters.
It's all coming to a nice landing here at the end of the year with the 2025 Subaru share the love event.
The love is being shared with the Sunshine Division and Providence Child Center.
Subaru is giving 250 car Subaru throwing in another hundred bucks.
So with each lease or purchase, it's a $350 donation to both of those charities right here where we live.
And there's even some national charities that you can add your choice.
The perfect time to get a car.
The 2025 Subaru share the love event at Car Subaru Invereton.
With you all the way.
Every mile every day.
Okay, we're going to this is a good spot.
We're going to we're going to take a quick break here.
We're going to hear from our friends at Alex partners and board Warner.
We appreciate their support.
Couldn't do this without them.
And we're going to come back and we're going to talk about specific cars.
And we're going to be the rapid fire.
We're going to go through a whole bunch of cars.
So those of you who like to hear these guys talk about cars, you're going to hear them.
Auto line after hours is brought to you by Alex partners when it really matters and by board.
The automotive and industrial sectors are undergoing a historic transformation.
Electrification, digitalization, supply chain reinvention, regulatory shifts.
The pace is accelerating and the pressure to adapt is real.
This is not a time for hesitation.
It's a time for bold decisions backed by fast, effective execution.
You need a partner who understands complexity from factory floors to boardrooms and delivers measurable results.
That partner is Alex partners when it really matters.
The automotive industry continues to evolve and so do the opportunities to define it.
Borg Warner, one of the world's most admired companies, gets its partners where they need to go.
Let's do something big together.
Okay, and we are back.
So it just so happens that you have here much of the brain trust of the North American power truck and utility of the award.
Please don't devalue the award though.
So Mr. Gilbert here is the prep of the organization.
Mr. Feeling is a past president as well.
Current board member and just departed board member.
Retired treasure.
Retired treasure.
You were a lot of danger.
I was a pretty member too.
Just imagine that.
It's sort of frightening.
Should scare people.
Okay, so I have here the semi-finalists for.
We call it Best of 2026 because it's much more exciting than saying semi-finalists.
Marketing.
Yep, it is.
Marketing.
Is there SEO?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Greg from Auto, but Guy knows all about SEO in probably more ways than he even wants to think of.
Or than you ever need to know.
All right.
So we'll try to go really fast here.
We'll go through these.
I hope we make them all.
You probably won't probably get through the cars, trucks, and maybe half of the SUVs, but.
Okay.
Audi A5.
Haven't driven it yet.
You're going to be driving it at the event we have in a couple of weeks.
It's gorgeous.
I think it's going to get strong consideration.
And Audi has been sort of wandering around at a little bit of a loss as far as technology and styling for a couple of years.
And on paper, this looks really good.
If it delivers, it could be a big deal for the brand.
Okay.
Dodge Charger, the electric charger.
Electric charger and the gasoline power.
Oh, the gasoline power?
Yep, they're both together.
In one area, I mean, it.
Electric Charger, as a sold like they thought it would, but it was a very nice vehicle to drive very sporty.
And I'm looking forward to getting into the gasoline powered one as well.
And it said a record in the last month of the federal incentives.
As the adjust about every EV.
And it's a fascinating strategy.
So new platform that they developed to be good with both electric and internal combustion.
It's a promising vehicle.
I think it's a strong contender.
I really do.
I mean, you don't get a new Dodge charger very often.
So I think that alone is going to turn some heads.
Okay.
Honda is bringing back the prelude this time as a hybrid.
But I was a lot of pieces from the civic and the civic hybrid.
I have to say it looks good.
But I mean, I don't know that there was an audience crying out for the prelude, frankly.
And when the prelude was a leader, it was cutting edge style and cutting edge technology.
And this feels to me a bit like a trip to the partspin.
So basically to your point, it's using the same powertrain as the civic hybrid.
And it's using a suspension that's from the civic type R.
But I kind of like the recipe though.
I think there's a lot of good pieces in there that I'm interested to spend more time in it.
I think there's a lot.
It's a good recipe that historically our jurors have liked Honda cars.
Yeah.
They've done very well in this competition.
I haven't been in it yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
The Kia K4.
Now this is a car when I first, literally when I first started driving it,
I had a holy blank moment that like this car was so good.
I mean, the platform seemed solid, the amount of technology that was in the thing.
I was just blown away by this.
And the vehicle under consideration is a hatchback because that's the newer model.
It's not the existing one, but I agree with you on the K4 itself.
I went on the drive program and was somewhat impressed.
Then I had one at home for a week and it was like, wow.
I've never been into small cars, but this was something I could see myself buying.
It's a gorgeous car.
And I think you remember last year the sedan kind of got into the juror pool.
It pretty much the last minute.
And I think it ended up finishing like second.
It had a really strong showing.
And I think Kia's do that really well.
They're pleasant to drive.
And I think this will be a strong one too.
Yeah, we tested the sedan so late in the process last year.
And for such a short time term that I feel like the hatchback in addition to being absolutely gorgeous
and having all the other virtues that the sedan did, this is kind of a second bite of the Apple version.
All right.
So the next two are two cars that have actually been mentioned so far on the show.
Not exactly these cars, but so the Mercedes CLA.
Well, electric, new architecture, new technology.
It would be pretty darn good.
New software also, which I'm hoping means that their digital assistant doesn't keep interrupting me
because it thinks I said, hey, Mercedes, when I said nothing like that.
I haven't driven it yet.
I have a driven it either, but I've always liked the CLA.
I think it's just it.
It has really nice like niche in the Mercedes lineup.
The Nissan Centra.
American needs entry level cars.
Nissan needs a hit.
They put a lot of technology from the larger models into it.
And again, this is one I'm looking forward to driving because it's just out right now.
But, you know, we as a jury have been, you know, very willing to give a small car,
a push because of technology, because of affordability, things of that nature.
So I would think that that's one in my mind that is a deserve strong consideration.
It just bothers me that the company presents it and says that it has, quote,
a proven and reliable powertrain, which means that it's got an old powertrain in it.
Carryover essentially.
So it's got, you know, sexy sheet metal, but, you know, this.
Right, but do people buy a lot?
Do people buy Nissan Centra?
Do people buy Nissan Centra's for a new powertrain?
They buy it because it's good, reliable, dependable.
So that's kind of what you look at it.
All right.
Should we mention this next week we will, there are some of these vehicles we haven't driven yet.
Next week we have the annual comparison event where we get all the jurors and most of the vehicles together.
So several of the ones we haven't driven yet, we will have it by this time next week.
Okay.
The F-150 Lobo.
You know, we've got that in the Maverick Lobo on there.
They're nice, but I'm a little hesitant to predict that something that's just a unique trim will get the award.
So both of these, both of these are designed to be street.
Yeah.
Vehicles.
The Maverick has some meaningful new hardware that gives it, you know, kind of the ability to drift a little bit and stuff like that.
The F-150 Lobo is just a lower, slightly lower version of the F-150 with new trim on it.
So I take the Maverick Lobo more seriously in the competition than I do the F-150.
Yeah.
It has a twin clutch rear drive that allows torque factory.
But they recommend that you do this.
Hey, it's Mike Chase here with Brad Preble from Car Subaru Inverten.
It's time for the 2025 Subaru share the love event.
I started thinking about all the stuff we've done this year.
We did the Subaru loves to learn.
We washed the cars for the Beaver Acres Elementary staff.
Thank you so much.
We still appreciate all the love from Subaru.
We're so excited you guys are here.
And to go pet rescue, we had a puppy fest, a puppy marathon.
So people could come and meet these puppies and adopt their puppies and give them forever homes.
So we brought these lovely puppies to Car Subaru to meet potential adopters.
It's all come into a nice landing here at the end of the year with the 2025 Subaru share the love event.
The love is being shared with the Sunshine Division and Providence Child Center.
Subaru is giving 250 car Subaru throwing in another hundred bucks.
So with each lease or purchase, it's a $350 donation to both of those charities right here where we live.
And there's even some national charities that you can add your choice.
The perfect time to get a car.
The 2025 Subaru share the love event at Car Subaru Inverten.
With you all the way.
Every mile, every day.
On a close course.
On a close course.
Not as you're driving downward.
So I tend to think the Mavericks are better canvas for the Lobo treatment too.
I think for the the F-150, there's so many trims that I think the Lobo might get lost in the shuffle.
So then we're going to have two rams.
One is the Ram 1500 Hemie and then the Ram 2500.
Yeah, 2500 is really the only truck that is new completely as opposed to being a variant.
The Hemie is a nice addition to it, but.
You know, like you were talking about with the Kia hatchback, the Ram 1500 last year got kind of overlooked.
So maybe this is another chance to give a look at that because the Ram 1500 is a very nice vehicle to begin with.
The Hemie brings back a classic engine, but as far as being a significant change.
But you know, the 2500 just takes all the nice stuff that they put in the 1500 and puts it in the big truck.
The putting the Hemie back into the F into the 1500 though does essentially undo the decision that cost Carlos de Vares his job, which was the mindboggling idea that we should just take the Hemie away from people before we've given them a chance to.
See that the new six cylinder were offering as an alternative is a really good engine to and they've been selling it.
You know, like ice cubes and hell for you since it went on the market.
I mean, it's very successful, but you're right.
The 2500 is an almost entirely new truck.
I kind of wonder to from a voting perspective of people are going to be like, do we want to give the word to a heavy duty truck?
I don't know.
I mean, I'm not.
Yeah, Mark's cold.
I mean, Mark's cold.
Yeah, Mark's cold.
You're a heavy duty truck.
And they are used to do use for personal.
Yeah, I just thought of them as being commercial vehicles.
But this is this is the all time greatest quote from an auto executive.
I think that is in relation to the Ram 1500.
Tim Caniscus said, quote, everyone makes mistakes, but how you handle them defines you.
Ram screwed up when we drop the Hemie, we own it and we fixed it.
All the credit in the world for saying that I got to tell you.
Yeah.
Yeah, more power to you, Tim.
Yeah, it's interesting.
And finally, company we've talked about being in the show, the Rivian R1T quad motor.
A lot of power.
I mean, I've driven it and got a lot of power.
Yeah, and Rivian, it's a nice truck.
It also benefits from all of their new zonal control systems, the computer controllers which we were talking about earlier.
Which Volkswagen admires enough to pay $6 billion for some of the action.
And the motors are the ones that Rivian has been developing internally.
They're a pretty big deal for the company going forward.
And we're going to see a lot of them.
Yeah, 1025 horsepower.
It's what everyone needs.
Exactly.
Just like with your Hemie too, right?
You need more horsepower.
Yeah.
That's the theme of the series of the awards.
More power.
Okay.
So we've now done the cars and trucks.
We will now start with the utilities and crop or just utilities.
And realize we made a change this year in that we debated this internally.
That there are so many more utilities out there.
We used to limit the number of utilities and was like a similar number of utilities as cars.
And one of our jurors said, hey, maybe we should consider more utilities.
And we talked about it without, well, that's where the market's going.
So we're giving our jurors more utilities to consent.
They're close to 60% of the market out there.
And the balance reflects that.
Plus, I think if I remember right, I think the last two years,
literally every single new car that was introduced during the course of the year,
made the semi final.
Yeah.
Somehow, Jeff, this list doesn't look any any short or longer to me than the last.
So the list that we said, it's just.
It's just the SUVs are a bigger portion now.
Right.
Okay.
But it seems to me that that's been the way for the last several years.
No, no one cares.
This is all in space.
There were about twice as many cars last year, because there were twice as many cars.
Moving right along.
So Acura ADX.
Acura dealers have wanted that for a while.
I haven't been able to figure out why it took Acura.
So long to give them a subcompact.
You know, luxury-ish SUV.
It's a good looking little car.
Interior is nice.
I liked it crossover, I guess, technically.
But it's pretty.
It's small.
I don't really know if this is exactly what they're going to sell a ton of these.
I'm waiting to drive it.
So I just don't.
I'm not a list a few weeks away.
I said, no, why it has an Acura badge on it.
Well, it's just.
I'm just.
It feels harder to you.
Yeah.
Okay.
It's.
It's not special.
You know, I mean, it looks nice.
I think it looks.
Acura.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I mean, it's it's not special.
And one would think that Acura is a brand that aspires to luxury.
There should be something special.
Yeah.
That's my point.
Okay.
The Audi Q5.
I've not driven it.
Me neither, but it's their best-selling vehicle.
And it like the A5 is based on a new architecture.
And the two of those are both an attempt to say we are technically relevant.
We are once again, a design leader.
And Audi needs successes.
So it's worth paying attention to.
I haven't driven it.
Right.
No, no.
Okay.
Three Cadillacs.
The escalade IQ.
The Optique in the Vistique.
Well, electric.
All electric.
So you have the giant three-row escalade.
You've got the two-row Optique compact crossover.
And the mid-size three-row Vistique.
And you've got.
Which they're calling sort of the mini-escalade now.
Which actually works, I think.
It's got more road.
Oh, God.
The XT6, which was their previous three-row non-escalade,
was a pretty feeble attempt.
And the, and the history feels like a real luxury vehicle.
Like it should be mentioned in the same sentences as escalade.
Now, I've driven all three of these.
Okay.
And I really liked the Optique.
I mean, that vehicle just jumped out at me as a vehicle that was just a really nice,
small-to-mid-size SUV that happened to be electric.
Vistique was very nice, too.
And of course, you can't knock an escalade IQ.
I mean, the escalade is, is what, yeah, I know you can.
But I mean, the escalade is, is what it is.
It's a big vehicle.
This is an electric version of it.
I don't necessarily see it as being likely a front runner.
But, but you don't know.
But the, the optic, the entry-level one I really see as a contender.
Kind of like the Vistique in the middle.
Just because it's like so many people like like big-ish but sort of mid-size.
Cross-overs with that second row, whether you're a third row, whether you need it or not,
you could put it down.
I think it's a very mainstream vehicle for Cadillac.
Yeah, the Vistique feels like it should be a success.
The Optique as well as, you know, all the virtues Jeff mentioned has got going for this.
There's a V series that's available now.
And for the 2026 model year, they started building it with a standard neck sport,
which are two more things in its favor.
I think I like all three of the Cadillacs, I've got to say.
I'm going to be, I wonder if they sort of divide the people who like Cadillacs and none of them make it
or does one of them, you know, rise above the others.
I really like all three vehicles.
Well, switching to the tick pronunciation rather than the tick pronunciation,
I would say the optic when I drove that I was like, wow.
This is the first modern Cadillac.
It's just struck me as, you know, the interior design, the performance of the EV,
just like, yeah, you can see a younger generation saying, oh, I've got to go buy a Cadillac,
or I'll go look at a Cadillac, which I think, I don't think the Escalade does that.
I mean, it's, you know, it's, but the Escalade is Cadillac.
I love the optic.
By the way, I'm not arguing against the optic.
But I, but I think that we, we say anything dismissive about any Escalade at our risk
because the Escalade is the defining Cadillac in a lot of ways.
Yeah, I agree.
A lot of a better word is an icon.
We were just talking about how iconic is being overused.
Okay, moving on to another vehicle that's large and in charge,
the 400 horsepower Ford Expedition, another big three row vehicle.
But you and I drove that together in Kentucky through some backwoods
and things of that nature didn't run into any revenues or stills or anything while we were down there.
We could have fit them all in there.
We could have fit them all in there.
It's a very nice vehicle.
I just happen to have one that I drove here today.
It's impressive.
It's off to a really good start in the marketplace.
It's got an off-road version now for the first time.
Hey, it's Mike Chase here with Brad Preble from Car Subaru Inverten.
It's time for the 2025 Subaru share the love event.
I started thinking about all the stuff we've done this year.
We did the Subaru loves to learn.
We washed the cars for the Beaver Acres Elementary staff.
Thank you so much.
We still appreciate all the love from Subaru.
We're so excited you guys are here.
And to go pet rescue, we had a puppy fest, a puppy marathon
so people could come and meet these puppies and adopt their puppies and give them forever homes.
So we brought these lovely puppies to Car Subaru to meet potential adopters.
It's all coming to a nice landing here at the end of the year with the 2025 Subaru share the love event.
The love is being shared with the Sunshine Division and Providence Child Center.
Subaru is giving 250 Car Subaru throwing in another hundred bucks.
So with each lease or purchase, it's a $350 donation to both of those charities right here where we live.
And there's even some national charities that you can add your choice.
The perfect time to get a car.
The 2025 Subaru share the love event at Car Subaru and Beaverton with you all the way every mile every day.
Very impressive vehicle.
I think Ford does a really good job with the way they're large SUVs handle these days.
I think they used to be a little like almost like enclosed F-150s.
And the expedition is kind of just like it's just manifesting all their suspension work over the last decade.
And the expedition, they put pretty much all of the invention they had for that vehicle in the back two feet of it.
The tailgate, the flexible seating, you can have a two level buffet table.
It's got a lot of tricks back there.
And there are things that people find useful for.
I mean, it's going to be a great vehicle for you going to soccer tournaments, tailgating outside the Lions games.
And those are reasons people buy expeditions.
Did that reminded me of the Malibu Max?
Remember that.
And they said, look, you can put your crock pot here.
And you go tailgating.
I'll never forget that.
All right.
Genesis GV70.
Genesis is just wonderful vehicles.
Forty great styling, great luxury to great price.
Exactly what he said.
Yeah, I think it's a strong contender.
And the jurors seem to like Genesis.
Genesis is not Genocide.
There's no issue in the audience.
To be clear, sorry about that.
And a really, really nice interior, which is one of the things Genesis does well.
It's a very well sorted out vehicle.
Yeah, if you've ever wanted to ever see real carbon fiber, they need to go into that vehicle because they've got sheets and sheets and sheets of it everywhere.
Okay, the Honda Passport.
A real off road capable SUV from Honda, which is the first time that they've done that.
Very capable, very nice.
I mean, I think it's great.
They've been advertising their SUVs as if they had off road capability for a while.
And they always showed them driving on a dirt road somewhere near an off road ATV.
Honda, which I thought was a little bit sad.
Yes, but it's got real chops.
It's a good vehicle.
It's a solid little off road and it gets them in the game.
Big deal for Honda.
I like it a lot.
The upper peninsula took it into some actual dirt and trails.
It's capable, but literally the best compliment I can give it is.
It's very comfortable to drive, but like four hours up north.
So it's like a Wrangler, which is going to kind of beach up, but will be awesome on the trails.
I mean, this thing, it's super comfortable.
So it's basically like an accord, but it can do all this stuff.
It's what you should drive if you're thinking of buying a Wrangler to just a driver on town.
Yeah, well, I mean, it probably does not have the same attributes of rock crawling or things like that as a Wrangler.
But for what most people would want to do with an off road vehicle, it will more than perform.
All right.
Moving right along, we have two that I think will split it more than the Cadillac's will.
The Hyundai Ionic 9 and the Hyundai Palisade.
Because you've got two SUVs that are just, you know, one's electric admittedly.
But I mean, the Palisade, I just thought was just an exquisite vehicle in terms of ride handling amenities.
And there's a hybrid version that they're adding as well.
And we'll add to the appeal.
I mean, they're both really good.
It's hard to find any fault with either of those vehicles.
And I am thinking with the changing of the world as it is.
I don't know if jurors are necessarily going to in their mind give EVs points for being a new technology.
I think EVs are now an established technology.
This is the power train.
Most people's mind. It's just another powertrain.
So EV9 was a wonderful vehicle. It was a great vehicle.
But I would lean more toward the Palisade just because they're going to sell a lot more Palisades than they sell EV9s.
I think the Palisade is a little more comfortable and familiar for what you're looking for in that segment,
whereas the 9 is a little more, it's almost like so tech-forward, so futuristic.
You know, I think the Palisade is going to get a lot of votes.
Can I give a shot for one of my favorites?
No, no, no.
I've been cancelled.
One of my favorite individual features of the year in the Palisade.
The receivers for the seat belts in the back seat have a little light of LEDs in them.
So you can find them.
I mean, airport shuttles, you name it.
I have spent so much time fumbling around trying to belt myself in with those things.
Why did it take this long for somebody to figure that out?
So I love that feature.
My favorite feature in the Palisade is the button on the top of the second row seat that you push to make the seat go forward and fold
so people can get into the third row without having to figure out like
I don't know.
Do I use this handle?
Does this do it?
Does this do it?
You just push the button and the long behold, it's done.
You know, why didn't anybody think of this years ago?
Okay, this has got big buzz.
I don't know who he's driven at the Cherokee.
Nobody's driven it yet.
Nobody's driven it yet.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news.
I was chatting with G people the other day, begging them to bring it to the drive and they say it's 50-50
because they're still trying to get everything together.
And they asked me, well, if we don't bring it this year, we'll be eligible next year.
And I said, well, only if you're first vehicle, your cell is after New Year's.
We don't want you ahead.
We could give him a break if it's right on the edge.
If it's right on the edge, I mean, we could...
All right, inside baseball.
The bottom line is they really want to drive that vehicle, but we may not have an opportunity.
And it's hugely significant for Jeep.
It should be a leader in the biggest segment of the market, you know, other than pickups.
I mean, I went to the backgrounder.
I didn't get to drive it, obviously, but I mean, everything seems to be there for modern Cherokee.
So, if they can get it there, I think it could be a pretty good contender.
And the last I heard they were saying that there might still be a separate press drive in December,
although at that point, they weren't telling me they were doubtful about being able to get it to our comparison next week.
By December, the boats will have been taken for the finalists.
Good point, sorry for them, unfortunately.
All right, Lucid Gravity SUV.
I'm getting one in a week. I'm really looking forward to it.
Lucid, they've got good technology.
They make beautiful cars.
They stumbled out of the gate with software, but that was four years ago now.
I'm looking forward to it.
Same with Mark, I haven't driven it yet.
Yeah, I just, the last Lucid I drove was a few years ago.
The Lucid, one of the errors, gorgeous car.
So, I think this could be formidable.
So the thing that I was curious about when I drove the gravity
and the windshield segues right into the panoramic roof.
And I just wondered, what will a safe light charge you when you crack that windshield?
I mean, it's huge.
Is this giant?
Just looking at it from the consumer's point of view.
It's a practical matter.
All right, so here's one that is almost the counter to that is the Nissan Leaf $30,000 commuter EV.
Not sure if it's going to be a heavy challenger for car of the year,
but I really liked it when I drove it.
It's a very nice EV.
It feels extremely conventional.
So that's probably why it's not going to stand out.
But I think unlike the other generations of the Leaf,
this feels like something somebody can bike and live with, be very comfortable with.
And, you know, Nissan, at least for now, has stopped selling the RE in this market.
So it's going to be Nissan's bread and butter electric vehicle for a while.
The Leaf has a pretty strong like brand awareness among EV enthusiasts.
So I think it, I mean, I'm going to give it a strong look.
I think it's, you know, it could be aggressive on price.
And it seems like, you know, it's attractive.
I think jurors might get a little mixed up with like the Leaf versus the Centra.
And like, you know, how do you distribute your maybe Nissan votes?
But hey, it's Mike Chase here with Brad Preble from Car Subaru in Beirton.
It's time for the 2025 Subaru share the love event.
I started thinking about all the stuff we've done this year.
We did the Subaru loves to learn.
We washed the cars for the Beaver Acres Elementary staff.
Thank you so much.
So I appreciate all the love from Subaru.
We're so excited you guys are here.
And to go pet rescue, we had a puppy fest, a puppy marathon.
So people could come and meet these puppies and adopt their puppies and give them forever homes.
So we brought these lovely puppies to Car Subaru to meet potential adopters.
It's all coming to a nice landing here at the end of the year with the 2025 Subaru share the love event.
The love is being shared with the Sunshine Division and Providence Child Center.
Subaru is giving 250 Car Subaru throwing in another hundred bucks.
So with each lease or purchase,
it's a $350 donation to both of those charities right here where we live.
And there's even some national charities that you can add your choice.
The perfect time to get a car.
The 2025 Subaru share the love event at Car Subaru in Beaverton with you all the way.
Every mile, every day.
I think it can be strong.
The center has got sexy sheet metal.
That's true.
Theoretically they should both be in a car category.
But the leaf is a crossover according to Nissan.
Yeah, that's a little term I refuse to use too.
All right.
We got four more to go.
So five more actually.
Mark, you're taking the leaf.
Nissan needs hits.
They need hits.
They've got to do better than they've been doing.
This is a chance for them to convince us they are.
Okay.
I don't think any of us have driven this but I could be proven wrong and that'd be great.
Pull star four.
I have.
You feel good?
Yeah.
But it's a bargain.
So if I told you I'd have to shoot you.
Okay.
No.
But in general, it is without giving drive impressions and saying whether I liked it or I didn't like it.
It is.
Charimer saying shoot him.
Okay.
No.
The one interesting thing about the pull star four is that I couldn't get over is no rear window.
It has the, you know, I don't know.
There's this gen text but the gen text style mirror that has cameras.
Video mirror.
Right.
And they say they do that to give more hatch room.
I'm still not 100% convinced people are going to adapt to that.
And when we talk about recalls, one of the biggest recalls is on backup cameras.
So that could be an issue as well.
It's.
And it's something that's unique among EVs.
So an SUVs.
I don't see it being a heavy duty contender, but could be a dark horse.
I haven't driven it.
So I haven't driven it.
But pull star makes interesting cars.
And I'm really intrigued to see what I do think of that rear view approach.
Because a lot of companies would love to not be have to worry about actual visibility out the rear.
If people are willing to accept it, we're going to see more people more companies designing cars that way.
I think that we're including the other foresters that it only lists the hybrid.
No, the hybrid is the only one considered this year.
That seems wrong because I just drove a wilderness.
Oh, yeah.
I think that was last year.
But nope.
We can talk inside baseball on that way.
But anyway.
Nice Subaru.
Nice hybrid.
Yeah.
I think it's strong.
I mean, it's, you know, people in the segment are, I think, are open to hybrid technology.
If you don't beat them over the head with it and just say, Hey, your, your forester gets this much better fuel economy.
And 40% better fuel economy.
Yeah.
And I don't think it'd be worth anybody over the head with it.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like it.
O-G-S-U-V.
I mean, frame.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like the charger in the car segment.
I think four runner is just going to get some eyeballs.
And I think it's going to be a strong contender.
And I really liked it.
I've driven like three of the different trims so far this year.
And they're all fun.
Like the TRD Pro, I think, is the one that is like the best, you know, you know, manifestation of the four runner.
The interior is way better.
I think the, and it's just so much more relaxed to drive.
And I don't mean that in the bad way.
It's like, hey, you're crush-hopping this with a Bronco or a Wrangler.
They can be a little challenging to drive.
This thing still capable is all hell.
But it's, you can drive it.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
I like it.
And it's the only vehicle in its segment that offers hybrid drivetrain.
Yeah.
Which counts for something.
And it's good hybrid.
I'm actually driving a TRD Pro today.
Yeah.
I parked it out front.
The sticker on it's kind of made my eyes water.
73 grand.
But that is the absolute highest trim level.
But I mean, four runner, it's solid.
It's been around for a long time.
It's a legitimate off-roader.
And it's hybrid.
It's got stuff going for it.
What he said.
Okay.
Speaking of Toyota, there are four hybrid.
The vehicle that must be considered.
I'm going out to drive this on Monday.
The best selling non-pick up in the country.
The defining vehicle of the biggest segment.
And the model line is switching to all hybrid this year.
I mean, it's a serious player.
Yeah.
I mean, I would say that that might be one of the few that are in the
Here are the vehicles to be beat.
Yeah.
And I haven't even driven it yet.
Because I'll be probably on the plane with you on Monday.
And, you know, the RAV4.
He is.
I believe Toyota's best selling vehicle period.
It goes past the camera.
So.
And that's the heart of the market these days.
So I'm looking forward to experiencing it.
It's a good vehicle.
And it's a hugely important segment.
I'm sure you guys have all seen the same LinkedIn post where the RAV4 outsold.
Like the F-150 excluding certain this and that.
But they sell a ton of them.
And it's, I mean, really they've been bred in butter product right now.
Yeah.
I think that the camera went to being all hybrid and it didn't affect its sales.
Right.
Negatively, which I think is a.
And that just shows you how mainstream hybrids are.
Is, you know, the best selling vehicle in Toyota's lineup.
You can only get a hybrid.
And who's going to complain about it when you're getting better fuel economy?
Yeah.
The lack of a hybrid is more than negative than you're adding one is anything surprising or unexpected now.
I think.
VW Tigwond.
I think we also were going to drive that tomorrow.
The turbo version of the turbo driving tomorrow.
Yeah.
Volkswagen's best selling vehicle in this country and possibly in the world.
I couldn't swear to that second bird.
It's a good looking replacement for a version that hasn't really cost fire in America yet.
For the vehicle version of a vehicle that wasn't previously so good looking.
Yeah.
I was.
I just.
Yeah.
No, I'll go with that.
It was there.
Yeah.
It's nice.
And again, it needs to be.
It's an important player for its brand and for and in the segment it's in.
So it's got to be considered.
It does.
But it may get lost in the shuffle with so many SUVs in there.
I think there's probably stronger players.
But I mean, it's it is a really important vehicle for Volkswagen.
And I think they've done a good job of sort of getting that customer that wants something different than the domestics or the Japanese or whatnot.
I think this will play to that and I'll have a better impression in about 18 hours when I drive it.
All right.
Last.
It's certainly not least but a vehicle we've already discussed in part the Volvo EX 30.
It missed its moment for me.
Yeah.
Two years ago, if they'd been able to get it on the market.
So two years ago, it was a semi-finalist.
And they pulled it because they weren't going to be able to sell it.
It was very incredible credit for that.
Yeah.
I was involved in that.
I got a call from them after was named.
It was a finalist.
Yeah.
It was one of the final three.
And I got a call from them saying it's not going to be sold this year and they had to pull it and we ended up putting the number four vehicle, which I think was one of the Hyundai's that went in there in its place.
And I mean, I can't give them enough credit for the honesty to do that because there are companies that.
And every rule to try to get considered in a year when they think that the competition is more favorable to them.
And the Volvo, they had a strong player, but they weren't going to be able to deliver it and they told us the truth.
So what do you think of this now?
I mean, is it basically so many people in the media really love that vehicle and I was an outlier.
I didn't like it.
I thought it was a wash and plastic and I thought it was something that was a little cheap looking for American taste.
So my opinion of that vehicle is a little different than most people's.
I'm more in the middle of that one.
I don't really love it, but I think it's fine.
It is what it is.
I really like it two years ago.
Yeah.
It's fun to drive.
It's good looking.
Two years ago would have been a leader.
Now it's not.
Yeah.
I really think so.
It's unfortunate for the vehicle.
Maybe even last year it might have been more considered, but like two years is a long time.
All right, we're running over way over.
Anybody want to make any predictions or is that something no one wants to do?
It's a tough field this year.
Some years I go in there and go, yeah, I think this is going to win other years.
I think it's wide open.
This is one of the wide open years.
I got no idea how I'm going to vote much less anybody else.
Well said.
Yeah.
No crystal ballmark.
Not a bit.
No.
Nope.
But I will say the one thing that surprised me when the list was put together that the Subaru
Outback didn't make it into the list of the years best because I would have thought that I
had it on my list.
Yeah.
I guess that's all I'll say.
Yeah.
I haven't driven it yet, but again, it's a significant vehicle.
I did too.
Exactly.
I think it's going to be a little more polarizing.
Maybe maybe maybe a little more polarizing and people didn't like that.
So, let's see.
Unit predict.
I'm not going to predict.
Is that going to predict?
Crystal ball is totally clouded.
Is it?
Magic eight ball?
Magic eight ball.
Striking eight ball.
Magic eight ball.
Striking eight ball.
Yeah.
Alright.
Alright, so we're later.
We're late.
I want to thank Mark and Greg and Jeff for joining us today.
It certainly was a lively discussion of cars.
discussion of cars and we don't do that often enough. So I want to thank you for doing that.
Thank you. It was fun. So everyone, thank you for your time today and we will be back next week.
So take care.
AutoLine After Hours is brought to you by Alex Partners when it really matters and by
Borg Warner. The automotive industry continues to evolve and so do the opportunities to define it.
Borg Warner, one of the world's most admired companies, gets partners where they need to go.
Let's do something big together.
This isn't just a game, it's a once in a generation event. The Harlem Globetrotters' 100-year tour
celebrate 100 years of high-flying dunks, 100 years of show-stopping moves and 100 years of
change in the game. Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy. This game is once in a
century. Be there at MotorCenter on January 24th. Go to HarlemClubTrotters.com for your tickets to
the 100-year tour.
Twilio empowers the builders who shape tomorrow. Whether you're scaling a startup or transforming
an enterprise, you need a customer engagement platform that keeps up. Twilio gives you the
power to build, test, and scale with confidence. Connecting data, AI, and customer communication
into one seamless open system. No silos, no barriers. Just everything you need to bring your
biggest ideas to life. Learn more at twilio.com
About this episode
A deep dive into the automotive landscape featuring insights from industry experts Jeff Gilbert, Greg McGlory, and Mark Phelan. The discussion centers around Rivian's CEO RJ Scaringe, dubbed the 'anti-Elon', and his vision for a software-defined vehicle architecture. The panel also debates Tesla's recent price cuts and the implications for the EV market, alongside the competitive edge of Chinese manufacturers. They explore various upcoming vehicles nominated for awards, including the Rivian R1T and the new Ford Expedition, highlighting their features and market positioning.
Chevrolet
electrical architecture
EV
EV startup
full self-driving
GMC
hybrid
ICE vehicle
MSRP
software-defined vehicle
Audi A5
Audi Q5
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac XT6
Chevrolet Equinox
Dodge Charger
Dodge Ram
Ford Bronco
Ford Expedition
Ford F-150
Ford Lobo
Ford Maverick
Ford Mustang
Genesis GV70
Honda Civic
Honda Passport
Honda Prelude
Hyundai Ioniq 5
Hyundai Palisade
Jeep Cherokee
Jeep Wrangler
Kia EV6
Kia EV9
Kia K4
Lucid Gravity
Nissan Leaf
Ram 1500
Rivian R1T
Rivian R2
Subaru Outback
Tesla Model 3
Tesla Model Y
Toyota RAV4
Volvo EX30
Original notes
TOPIC: Rivian, Tesla and More PANEL: Jeff Gilbert, WWJ NewsRadio 950; Mark Phelan, Detroit Free Press; Greg Migliore, VerticalScope; Gary Vasilash, shinymetalboxes.net
Autoline After Hours
Autoline
0:00
70:48