A recent study challenges the notion that Americans are deeply attached to car ownership, revealing that nearly 20% of urban and suburban car owners are strongly interested in living car-free, with another 40% open to the idea. Researchers from Arizona State University discuss their survey of over 2,000 residents, the rarity of walkable communities in the US, and the distinction between being carless by choice versus by constraint. The episode explores motivations behind car-free living, the impact of community design, and the socioeconomic factors influencing transportation choices.
Do people really like our all-enveloping autocentric system quite as much as everyone keeps saying they do? What kind of communities would they live in if given the choice? The answers, as a new study shows, are not exactly what so many of us have been told. Nearly one in five American car owners is "strongly interested" in living car-free, and another 40 percent are open to the idea. We talked about the implications of that study with its authors, Nicole Corcoran, Deborah Salon, and Hue-Tam Jamme, researchers at the Arizona State University School of Geographical Sciences and Urban Planning in Tempe.
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"So we found that 18% of urban and suburban US residents had an interest in car free living. And then another 40 ish percent said that maybe one day they would also be interested in living car free."
Car free living means people live without owning or using cars, getting around by walking, biking, or buses instead.
Car free living refers to a lifestyle choice or community design where residents do not own or use cars for their daily transportation needs, relying instead on walking, biking, public transit, or other alternatives.
"I understand it might have had something to do with the planned community of cul-de-sac in Tempe, which I happened to visit while we were out in Phoenix for book tour."
A planned community is a neighborhood that is carefully designed before it is built, with homes and things people need close by.
A planned community is a residential area designed and built according to a specific plan, often including amenities and infrastructure to support a particular lifestyle or demographic.
"Deborah, maybe you could talk about that because it's something we talk about a lot that people in the United States of America especially are so enveloped by car culture that might make it seem more daunting or unpleasant."
Car culture means how cars are a big part of how people live and think in some places, like the US. It affects how cities are built and how people get around.
Car culture describes the social and cultural environment where cars are deeply integrated into daily life, shaping behaviors, values, and urban design, especially prevalent in countries like the United States.
"Those who have had car free experiences tend to build up know-how of using non-car modes. And so somebody who lives in even a walkable neighborhood or has a bus line near their home but has never taken a bus may not even see a bus as an option."
Non-car modes are ways to get around without using a car. This includes walking, biking, or taking the bus or train.
Non-car modes refer to transportation methods that do not involve personal car use, such as walking, cycling, public transit, or ridesharing.
"... because I know I can just throw on my Cleverhood Ranger rain cape, and I'll be all set to go wherever I ..."
The Ford Ranger is a smaller truck that people use for carrying things and going on adventures. It's strong and can handle rough roads but is easier to drive than big trucks. Talking about a rain cape means the person is ready to go out even if it rains.
The Ford Ranger is a midsize pickup truck known for its versatility, off-road capability, and practical size for both work and daily driving. It is often discussed for its balance between ruggedness and comfort, making it a popular choice among those needing a reliable truck without the bulk of a full-size pickup. The mention alongside a rain cape suggests its use in outdoor or adventurous settings.
""...because we are now in solidly well into 20 or 30 years of an urban renaissance. There was a period in the 60s, 70s, 80s...""
Urban renaissance means cities becoming popular and lively again after times when people thought they were unsafe or not nice to live in.
Urban renaissance refers to the revitalization and renewed interest in living in city centers, often involving improvements in safety, amenities, and cultural attractions after periods of decline.
""...people who have used a sustainable mode to school, so they walked, they biked, or they took the school bus...""
Sustainable modes mean ways of getting around that are better for the planet, like walking, riding a bike, or taking the bus.
A sustainable mode of transportation includes methods that have a lower environmental impact, such as walking, biking, or using public transit like school buses.
""...have a reduced probability of being car dependent today by 12 percentage points. Wow. And that experience increases the probability...""
Being car dependent means you need to use a car for most trips because other ways like walking or buses aren't easy or available.
Car dependency refers to a lifestyle or situation where individuals rely heavily on personal vehicles for transportation, often due to lack of alternative options like public transit, walking, or biking.
""...So to all of the cargo bike riding parents out there, you are doing it. You are the change that we want to see in the world.""
A cargo bike is a special bike that can carry big things or kids, so people can use it instead of a car for some trips.
A cargo bike is a bicycle designed to carry heavy loads or multiple passengers, often used by families or businesses as an eco-friendly alternative to cars for short trips.
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Hey everybody, it's Doug. Spring has sprung, or it's at least thinking of springing. And
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and you want to get one at an affordable price, I highly recommend Upway. Again, that's Upway.co,
discount code TWOC100. People who have used a sustainable mode to school, so they walked,
they biked, or they took the school bus, have a reduced probability of being car dependent today
by 12 percentage points. And that experience increases the probability that their children
use a sustainable mode by more than 30 percent.
This is the War on Cars. I'm Sarah Goodyear. With me is my co-host Doug Gordon.
Hey Sarah, long time no see. We've been apart for, I think, a grand total of four days,
five days. That's right, and we're still apart, but we're together remotely,
and our guests are also joining us remotely. Not long ago, a study blew up our little corner
of the internet, one that challenges some rather pervasive and long-held beliefs about America's
alleged love affair with the car. Do people really like our all-enveloping auto-centric system
quite as much as everyone keeps saying they do? What kind of communities would they live in if
given a choice? The answers, as this study shows, are not exactly what so many of us have been led
to believe. I am super excited about this episode because we here at the War on Cars are nothing,
if not about narrative busting about America's quote unquote love affair with the car. So this
before we get started, you can find us on patreon at patreon.com slash thewaroncarspod.
You can also order our book, Life After Cars, freeing ourselves from the tyranny of the automobile
wherever books are sold. Learn more and find out where you can see us live on our book tour
at lifeaftercars.com. Okay, with that out of the way, I'm going to ask you a question, Doug.
What percentage of Americans do you think would like to live car-free?
Okay, I've read the study. So I know the answer, but I'm going to channel the average car driving
American, and I'm going to pretend to be the kind of person who comments under our Facebook posts
and say only the people who live in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, so we're talking like one
or two percent of the population. I'm sorry to have to burst your auto-centric bubble.
Oh, it's not me. It's the Facebook commenter that I'm playing. Yes, their auto-centric bubble,
I should say. I'm a method actor. That's very well done. But the answer actually,
as a new study shows, is that nearly one in five American car owners is strongly interested
in living car-free, and another 40 percent are open to the idea.
Well, as that Facebook commenter, I'm going to tell you I don't believe in statistics,
so your job now is to convince me. Well, fortunately, I have here some people that might
help the very people who conducted the study. Nicole Corcoran, Deborah Salon, and Huaytham
who are researchers at the Arizona State University School of Geographical Sciences
and Urban Planning in Tempe, Arizona. Nicole, Deborah, and Huaytham, welcome to the war on cars.
Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having us. Thank you, yeah.
Okay, so I'm just going to say that like the three of you, I'm feeling a little starstruck
because indeed, when this study started making the rounds, when you put it out,
people were going, that's about it, because I think it is really counterintuitive to what people
expect the answers to these questions to be. And let's just talk about these top line numbers.
Nicole, can you tell us how many people you surveyed, how these percentages broke down?
Who were these people? Yeah, so we surveyed a little bit over 2000 US residents, US suburban
and urban residents, to be exact. We did not survey any rural residents. And we attempted to get a
nationally representative sample in terms of demographics, such as age, income, all of those
things. So we could really see this like from the national lens. And we found that 18% of
urban and suburban US residents had an interest in car free living. And then another 40 ish percent
said that maybe one day they would also be interested in living car free. And I'll jump in and
just sort of clarify one thing, which is the statistics that Nicole just cited are the people
we surveyed who do own cars. We also had some people in our survey that live car free now.
And so we didn't ask them this question since they're already doing it.
So I wanted to ask, how did you even come up with the idea for this study?
What prompted you to really be curious about this question? I understand it might have had
something to do with the planned community of cul-de-sac in Tempe, which I happened to visit
while we were out in Phoenix for book tour. Wait, Tom, do you want to answer?
Yeah, sure. I remember very clearly the first time I heard about cul-de-sac. It's actually the day
that I interviewed for this job I have at ASU. And I was told, yeah, there's this planned
car free community that's under development, I think at the time. So this was 2019. At the time,
they hadn't even broken ground, but they were talking about it. And I was really curious about
like, why would people even consider living in a place like Arizona without a car? I had just
finished my dissertation research in Vietnam, which was motivated by the same type of curiosity,
like in a context where more and more people are driving cars in a place where it's very
inconvenient. Most people ride motorbikes because the streets are really narrow and it's just much
more accessible. I was really curious there to ask, you know, why would people even want to drive?
And what would they get from it? And what would be lost in the process? And now I come to Arizona
and I hear a story of people maybe willing to move to a car free community and ditch their car in a
place where it seems very inconvenient. So I had the same questions and, you know, wondering,
who are these people and why would they even do it? And what do they get? What would they get from
it? And what would be lost in the process? And then I joined ASU and met Deborah and we started
working on that together. So maybe she can take it from there. Yeah, I mean, when quick time joined
ASU, well, it was actually during the pandemic. So we didn't get to work together on it immediately.
But a little while later, once we were back in the office and talking and stuff, we started talking
about this cul-de-sac experiment that at that point was then, I don't remember exactly which
year they broke ground, but we talked to the people there, the developers and tried to understand
what they were trying to do. And then we were, we actually did a project where we talked to
some people who had put themselves on a mailing list of people interested in moving to cul-de-sac
and trying to understand, you know, what their motivations were and what they were thinking.
Basically, what happened after that is we were thinking, well, these people that we spoke with
who were interested in moving to cul-de-sac, one thing we really noticed about them is they were
actually really diverse. They were from all over the place. They were all different ages, walks of
life. And we thought, huh, I wonder how many other people all across the country might be interested
in moving to a place where they would live car free. And so that was kind of the curiosity. And
we thought, well, we could do a survey, find out. So that's kind of the genesis of the project.
So one of the things you write in your introduction is that only about 12% of the census blocks
in the United States of America provide the opportunity for true high quality car free
living. And you make the point that when people don't have a car in the United States, it's
most often not because they don't want one, but because they can't afford one. Could you
talk a little bit about that, Nicole? Sure. So we found, yeah, that only about 12% of
US residents live in census blocks that are walkable, according to what the EPA calls a
walkable. There's like a walkability score. It doesn't necessarily mean, you know, that
where they're living is like great for car free living. It's just that they probably have amenities
close to them. And there's like a safe walking infrastructure around them. When we say that
somebody is carless, we're saying that they do not own a car, not because they don't want to,
but because of some sort of constraint, whether it be a financial constraint or potentially a
disability. So most people who live in the US who do not own a car are carless, not car free,
meaning they are not doing so by choice, rather by constraint.
Right. And I mean, this is something Doug, you and I talk about this all the time,
this idea that a walkable community in this country is so rare that it has essentially become a
luxury good. Yeah. So as much as I was feigning surprise on behalf of the Facebook commenter
at the top, I mean, real estate prices reflect the fact that our most walkable, bikeable, transit
rich environments where you can live car free, real estate prices are very high in those places.
So there's sort of a built in survey in that sense, a market based survey.
Does that resonate with what you heard from the people you were getting information from?
I mean, I think what you said is true, Doug, that those neighborhoods that are the most walkable
and the most accessible also tend to be pricey to move to and real estate values are high.
I'm trying to think if we have any evidence to support that story from our survey, I'm not
sure we exactly do because I don't think we ask people about how much they spend for housing.
And also, it sounds like your survey asked for the most part, people who have cars, people who
are living car dependent lifestyles will get into sort of their own experiences with car
free living or their understanding and knowledge of car free living. But it doesn't sound like
you interviewed a whole lot of people who are carless, not by choice as we were saying,
and who might aspire to own a car where they live because of the access that it
might provide them if they are in a car dependent part of the country.
Well, I guess I'll say we actually, we have a pretty representative sample in terms of the
fraction of the people who answered our survey who don't have cars and people who do have cars,
representative meaning that about 10% of the survey respondents actually don't have cars
and are mostly, I think, in the car less kind of category and we can talk more about that and how we
sort of, why we think that and then the remaining 90% or so of our survey respondents own cars.
But that's pretty representative of the fraction of people who do and don't own cars in the United
States. Totally. Well, let's talk about that then, how you tease that out, that carless piece of it.
I think the main thing we did is we looked at the demographics of the people who currently
don't own cars in our survey respondent population compared to the demographics of the people who
do and we find the same thing that all of the existing research has found, which is that when
you look at like what are the determinants or what are the features that we actually ran
on a multivariate model. So features that are associated with or tend to predict whether someone
will or won't own a car are the same things everyone else finds. Like if you have more money,
you're more likely to have a car and if you have less money, you're less likely to have a car. It's
kind of the big one. I mean, there's a few other demographics and whether you live in an urban,
you know, more urban kind of neighborhood versus not, but it's really the income that's I think
the biggest one. But I don't know if you guys have anything more to say about that. I mean,
I just want to build on this and add that this was one of the surprising findings from our studies
when we compare these groups, so the carless with the group that we were most interested in,
which is people who might consider living car free by choice. We find that these characteristics,
these predictors are not like don't behave the same at all. Like it's actually not education,
it's not income. I mean, these variables that are so always significant when it comes to explaining
carlessness are not significant in our models for like people who are interested in car free
living. So your research also looked into which individual factors are associated with interest
in car free living among these car owners. Could you explain that part of the survey, Nicole?
Yeah. So we asked individuals not only about their demographic information, but about their
travel behaviors, both current and past as well. And we found that actually the biggest predictors
of interest in car free living were related to travel behavior, both current and past experience.
And then a little bit of attitudes as well. So people who regularly ride transit are more likely
to have an interest in car free living. Those who are car dependent on the other hand or who are
highly car dependent are less likely to have an interest in car free living. And then those who
have actually lived without a car in the past are also more interested in car free living.
So we also found that those who like to drive are less interested. So a lot to do with behaviors
and attitudes rather than demographic variables. I mean, it's interesting because you might think,
oh, living without a car is so hard. If you had lived without a car in the past, you'd think,
I don't ever want to go back to that. But it seems like it was actually the reverse that having
the experience of having had a car free life allowed you to imagine the good things about
a car free life. And Deborah, maybe you could talk about that because it's something we talk about
a lot that people in the United States of America especially are so enveloped by car culture that
might make it seem more daunting or unpleasant.
We did find this relationship with having had a past car free experience and interest in car
free living, which is really promising. However, a caveat to that is that we don't know what their
past car free living experience was and we would have loved to know. It could be that they went
to Europe. It could be that they had a great experience in their college town. So we don't
exactly know what their car free experience was. However, what we do know is that those,
and this pulls from other literature as well, those who have had car free experiences tend to
build up know-how of using non-car modes. And so somebody who lives in even a walkable neighborhood
or has a bus line near their home but has never taken a bus may not even see a bus as an option.
They might not even know, how do I read a bus map? How do I pay? Things like that.
And so to have a car free experience allows you to build up this kind of know-how to use
non-car modes, which influences likely their interest in using it again in the future because
it can actually imagine what it's like to live without a car and how they would actually move
around. Did you ask people or find out what it was about car free living that they were interested
in? For some people, it can be saving money. Other people, it can be quality of life, just
having things close by, saving time, getting exercise and movement throughout the day.
We on the podcast have spoken about all the different benefits that come from living car
free. But was there any information, Glean, from the survey about what it was specifically
people were interested in? Or is that something we should have you back on to talk about in round two?
Yeah, I think that is definitely something we should talk about in round two. I feel like just
like why, what were the experiences that people had living car free? This question of like why,
what would they expect? Like what would they want from a car free lifestyle? That's not something
we dug into. Maybe it could be helpful just to picture the process of what the survey taker was
going through. I think it might be helpful to get a sense of like how we ask the questions.
Yeah, so this as a survey taker, you would get our survey and the first thing you would be like
one of the first things we would you would be introduced to is this possibility of moving to
a place where that has been designed for car free living. So we do describe, we do give a little
vignette, like a very brief one, we try to make it as neutral as possible, describing what a car
free community looks like, how it's designed and you know how like accessible amenities,
proximity to transit and yeah, different features like that. And then we go through the process
of asking people, do you currently own a car? Yes, no. So this is from this question that you know
if people are already living without a car or not. Then we have a whole section on travel behaviors
and then we have a whole section on social demographic characteristics. And toward the
end of the survey, we turn to the question of like, would you ever consider living without a car?
And that is where people ask, respond, can respond, yes, no, or maybe. And our survey kind of ended
there. So this is like the main information, this was our main outcome variable right in our
study. But yeah, for sure, there's room for a follow up survey where we would ask, you know,
what features exactly of a car free community would you need or like things like that?
Well, we'll definitely have you back when that next round happens. One thing I wanted to ask was,
you know, so you have 20% of Americans are strongly interested in car free living. And then you had
another, you know, 40% were somewhat interested and open to the idea. This was one of the best
and most interesting parts of the survey that I found. What would happen if all of the people who
experienced just a strong interest in living car free were actually able to do it, could pick up,
move from where they live, or that their place could be turned into the place that they want to
live? How would that change the percentage of people who actually live car free? It would triple it.
Deborah, it would triple it? Yeah, triple it. It would go from how what percentage of Americans
now live car free to what percentage would? I think the current percentage is just under 10%.
And so if another nearly 20% adopted car free living, I mean, maybe, yeah,
approximately triple. Wow. So can you imagine if a third of Americans who want, you know,
could live car free, what that would do for carbon emissions alone, and then add on our politics,
community, democracy, all the stuff we talk about on the show, safety, you know, all of that.
Health. Yep. Yeah. And also less exposure to, you know, catastrophic injury and all of the things
that come with it and the expenses of the car as well. And the societal benefits of not investing
in so much car infrastructure, you know, the, what it might do to our tax base, for example.
Another thing I'd bring in is hopefully, assuming these people are happy with their choice, if they
do decide to go car free, hopefully it makes people's lives better at the same time. Not even
thinking about all of these, all the external costs of driving and of our car culture and car
ownership and use. I think the idea that you could achieve all those things while also just
allowing people to realize their own dreams and not trying to force anyone to do anything
they were not interested in doing. I think that's the really powerful thing about this finding.
Yeah. I think that to me, that is, that nails it because so much of what we talk about on the
show is forced car dependency. That, you know, it's one thing if you really want to live in a
place where you have to get around by car and, or that is just appealing to you for whatever reason,
from having a really large backyard and being isolated from other people. Some people love
that. That's fine. We talk a lot on the show about choices and freedom and we're not trying to,
you know, jam our lifestyles down anybody's throat. But yes, exactly. I think the idea
in the United States where we celebrate freedom, but people don't have the freedom to choose to
live the way that they might prefer, absolutely agree. That would be the biggest, I think, benefit
overall in many ways. Everything flows from that. And then I think also there would be the benefit
of if there were more people living this way, then it would be something that would be easier for
everybody else to imagine because they would be seeing it, they would be seeing it as a positive
thing that people were choosing and not having sort of imposed upon them. And as you were saying,
Huay Tam, and I've experienced this a lot with people who come to New York who aren't
used to using public transportation, they're intimidated by it. And if you see more people
doing it and it just becomes more part of the fabric of life, then you don't, the barrier,
the mental barrier is, is lower. And it just, you know, so I think there would be that benefit
as well. Yeah, I think Nicole was saying this, but yeah, for sure, about the benefit of best
experience, I mean, that also connects to one other study that we have done building on the
same survey where we showed that having the experience of commuting using a sustainable mode
as early as when you were in fifth grade actually has a lasting influence on whether you're
dependent or not as an adult and what even what your kids do. So again, that's kind of like we
find there some evidence that having done it probably, I mean, that's kind of how we interpret
those results that having done it as a kid probably leaves a memory of like, it's doable,
just as doable. And it's not crazy for me to consider having my kids do it. So that's like
about the, you know, like what people might have learned from past experience and carried over.
But I wanted to add something to your point about, oh yeah, all the benefits. So all the benefits,
potential individual and societal benefits that we laid out here, I think are definitely the
reason why we're so excited about this research about potential interest in car-free living.
But it also touches on something else we were talking about that might be, can be seen as a
limitation or just, you know, like a call for step two. But we don't really know what it would
take for people to actually transition, to actually make the move. And that is something
that even our reviewers pointed as a potential limitation of the study as like, this is stated
preference. You don't know if people would actually do it. So yeah, for sure, that's,
that's, it's true. We don't know what it would take. We'll need to do more research
to figure it out. But what we learned from this finding is that there's untapped demand, right?
There's like a whole group of people, like you said, who are not, who don't really have the option
right now to live a way of life that they might prefer. That is a perfect place to take a break.
Give us a moment and we will be right back.
I woke up to the sound of rain this morning. A nice, soaking, steady rain.
Considering that I have a ton of errands to do today, you might think that would discourage me.
Not a chance, because I know I can just throw on my Cleverhood Ranger rain cape,
and I'll be all set to go wherever I need to go, by bike or by foot.
The visor even keeps my glasses dry. You can feel good about the rain too. Just go to
Cleverhood.com slash The War on Cars and enter code PuddleJumper to get 15% off
the Ranger and everything else in the Cleverhood store. Cleverhood.com slash The War on Cars
code PuddleJumper. Don't let the rain stop you.
Okay, so you are researchers, not advocates, not politicians, but what, if anything, along the
line, what did your research suggest about how to get more people even just interested
in living car-free? Because I think that 20% strong interest and the 40% general interest is great.
It does represent an untapped political constituency for better transit, better bike lanes,
denser development, sidewalks even. We can't magically transport everyone to Amsterdam or
Paris or other walkable cities. We can't take everyone and have them live in my apartment for a
week. So what can we do to build on that? Do you have any suggestions for advocates
as we try to make this case? Deborah, what do you think?
One of the things that we say in our paper that I think is really true is that it would be at a
minimum, at a first step, that advocates could advocate for the rules to change such that if,
say, a developer wants to build a development to support people who would live car-free,
let's just let them do that. I'm trying to think of other examples. That's the main one,
essentially. We do a lot of our planning and zoning rules and we do a lot of time to make sure
that cars are provided for in all of the things that we build, not just the public sector, but
also all the things that private sector developers build. And this is at cross purposes, I think,
with the idea of building places that allow people that choice to live car-free. And so I think
at a minimum, we could just allow things to be built to serve this demand.
So the parking reform network, for example, people who are eliminating parking
minimums or working to reduce them, that would be a great policy lever to pull.
Yeah, I was about to say, at the minimum, alleviate parking minimums, right?
Yeah, and then there's the question, too, about reaching policymakers. And do you think that
research like this can be a meaningful way to communicate with policymakers, elected officials,
and planners, and other people in the professions that create this world that we live in?
Can this be a meaningful finding to help to influence them? And how might that work? Is that
something that you all as researchers think about at all? Wait, Tom.
Yeah, I mean, you know, we talked about untapped demand before. So one conversation that we had
as a team, like something we talked about a lot is the supply story. I mean, if there's untapped
demand, it means like we were saying, this demand needs to be supplied for. So we end up with an
argument that's also about the private sector. We were talking about the fact that when policy
makers, planners, when we think about the implications of our research, oftentimes it's
in terms of public investments, investing in more pedestrian friendly facilities,
more transit, and so on. Here we also have evidence that the private sector has a role to play
and should be allowed to play it in supplying for car free living types of developments.
In terms of actors that might have something to learn from this, we think there's also
some confidence to gain that there is a market for it. And I feel like right now, well, again,
our starting point was cul-de-sac. This is not a cul-de-sac story in the end, but
we are starting point is this private developer who's doing something considered
extremely innovative and extremely risky. And I think our findings also showing
developers out there that maybe it's not so risky. Maybe you will find people to live in
the places that you built if you build them. That's kind of where I landed after visiting
cul-de-sac. I was very agnostic over the concept as it applied specifically to that private
development. And we did a bonus episode where I talked a little bit about my thoughts, one of
which was that I felt that there weren't enough amenities within the development itself to enable
completely car free living. It is near the metro rail and there are walkable areas around it,
but it's not quite there yet. However, where I landed was if they can take this risk in Phoenix,
one of the most car-centric cities in the United States, more so than many that we visited on
our book tour, that is proof of concept for it working in places with far better bones
that might better support this. So I'm excited to see where the concept of cul-de-sac goes.
Again, no interest in the company succeeding or failing as a company, but as a concept I think
it's great. So yeah, I think that's a fantastic point. If they can do this in Phoenix, they can do
this in more neighborhoods in the Northeast, in the Midwest, in Florida, in Texas, everywhere.
And I guess that leads me to another question. Hope is in short supply these days. Sometimes it
feels that way. And when we're out on the road, we've had a lot of people saying like,
what should give us hope? How can we stay positive as we're fighting for better communities?
So should this survey be a source of hope for our listeners? Nicole, can you speak to that?
I mean, in the most obvious sense, it's awesome to see that one in five urban and suburban U.S.
residents has an interest in car-free living. And I think that it did in a sense give us,
as like an urban planning community, some hope because there can be such a loud minority who's
against projects that improve urbanism. But at the same time, just acknowledging that the car
also has a lot of benefits for our people and so just being sensitive to that. At the end,
what we want is like strong mobility for our residents. And we would like to do it in a way
that improves social good. But we also need to make sure that we provide that access if we're
going to say like, let's have a less car-dominated infrastructure. We need to make sure that we're
providing all the things that need to be in place for that to exist and people to still thrive.
So it is exciting, but there's a lot of work to be done.
Deborah, I felt like you mentioned hope a couple of times in our conversation. What are your thoughts?
Well, so I guess I'll start by just saying when we did this survey in the beginning of this
conversation, I told you that we did this survey because we were curious. And we really didn't
know what the answer was going to be in terms of how big the demand really would be for living
without a car in the United States, given how car dependent our whole society really is.
Sounds like you were too, Doug, when you visited cul-de-sac. We're like, maybe not skeptical,
but a little bit like, huh, well, maybe they can get a few hundred people interested in this. But
how big is the demand really? We just really, really didn't know. And when we got the survey
data back and looked at those numbers, we were really surprised at how many people
said that they were interested to the point where we went back and were like,
did we do something wrong? Is there some way that this survey is biased? So we went back and
looked and looked and we don't think so. We think that the result is real. That said, it's more like
a real, it's a real sentiment. I don't think it means that one in five car owners will give up
their cars tomorrow because, of course, their world where they live isn't supportive of that.
Otherwise, they would have given up their cars already. I was talking to a colleague here about
this study and I told him I was excited about these findings and he was like, wow, that really is
interesting. You've shown that there's a real yearning for this kind of freedom to live without
a car. Whether it can become a reality is unclear or there's a lot of work to do between now and
then, but there is this desire. And I think that is very hopeful for your podcast audience.
For sure. I expected a lot of people to find it surprising. I found it surprising,
but I guess I'll share one more thing which maybe Nicole can build on this because she was the one
who really led this piece of responding to reviewers. But some of our reviewers were like,
their perspective was, this is boring. We already know this. I don't know if you want to jump on
that, Nicole, and explain who we think those people were and what happened there.
Yeah. So the journal we submitted this paper to is very much an international journal. And so we
think that a lot of the people who may be reading this journal and who engaged with us in the
reviewing process are actually coming from the European lens. So their initial argument was that
why do we need to look at who's interested in car-free living? If they wanted to live car-free,
they would. But we don't have the infrastructure in the US, obviously, to realize potentially the
amount of demand that could exist. So that's the reason we undertook this survey was saying,
we don't think the amount or we don't know if what exists today in terms of infrastructure for
car-free living is enough. Are all Americans who want to do it already doing it or no? And so we
really had to make that argument to our reviewers and say that we actually believe that there is not
the infrastructure available in the US as it is in other places to realize the potential demand that
does exist. And so, yeah, we got a lot of pushback and they said, why would they not just do it? And
we had to explain the US context is very unique in that sense compared to other parts of the world.
I could probably talk to about a dozen people in Montclair, New Jersey who could tell you that
they would love to be living car-free if it were affordable and available to them. So maybe they
should have a word with your reviewers, I think. I mean, we know that story. People are being pushed
out of cities because of high prices and they buy cars reluctantly. I feel like every generation
we get a story of like, Gen X is really interested in living car-free, but or we get the opposite of
like, millennials are choosing to live in the suburbs. It's like, no, they just can't afford to
live in the city or at least in a place that allows them a more urban style of living.
Wait, Tom, I think you had something to say about hope as well or on that general topic.
Yeah, I wanted to build on Deborah's point. Yes, we found it hopeful that the demand was so big,
but I want to emphasize again that the demand is also very diverse. And that is another reason
to be hopeful because related to the point about supply, it's not like there's a tiny little market
for a certain type, like a small group made of people who are very similar in terms of education,
maybe youngish, maybe single, maybe highly educated and with a certain set of political
beliefs or environmentally friendly attitudes. That's not what we find. Actually, that variable
about being environmentally friendly, again, was not significant in our model. So the fact that
this demand seems really diverse suggests that providing for our free living options for more
Americans could mean making the urban experience of children, of the elderly who don't want to
drive or cannot drive anymore, of people with disabilities, of a lot of people's lives could
become just nicer and easier. These are such exciting findings, so interesting,
so provocative. They raise as many questions in a way as they answer. So what's next? What does
this make you curious about? You said that you did this survey out of curiosity, and it seems
like it just has opened many more avenues for curiosity. So where is your curiosity going
to lead you next? That's a great question. I think two things we're really interested in is what would
it take? People have a strong interest in not having cars, living car-free. What are the
circumstances under which they would actually make a choice like that? That's one set of kind
of questions. Another question is actually about the role of experience, past experience, current
experience, which we talked about a lot here. This idea of, well, when you had an experience in
the past where you lived without a car, what was that like? How did that inform your thinking?
We have this hypothesis that Nicole mentioned earlier that people, like we think, that maybe
people did a bunch of learning about how to live car-free during those periods of their life,
and therefore it made more sense to them to say, yes, I'm interested in doing it in the future.
But we don't know that as a hypothesis. We actually didn't ask that question. And I think
knowing those things is kind of the next step toward trying to figure out what kinds of things
could make this future happen for people. I'm so fascinated by what you had mentioned earlier about
people who had experience living car-free as children, had a stronger preference later in
life because we are now in solidly well into 20 or 30 years of an urban renaissance. There was a
period in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and through the mid 90s where cities were seen as dangerous, no place to
raise a family, white flight, of course, was a real thing during that period and even before.
And now we have an entire new set of generations that have experience living in cities. I'm so
curious what's going to happen when those fifth graders, I happen to have two teenagers and,
you know, where will they live when they are my age, you know, or when they are in their 30s?
So I think that's a really fascinating long-term question, perhaps to ask. Might outlive all of
us, but we'll see. Do you want a little teaser on this one? It was published last week. Yes,
we would very much like that. So we found, because in the same survey, we also asked people how they
traveled to school when they were in fifth grade and how it's so we know how they travel today.
And we also asked for those who have children, how do their children travel to school? And we
find that people who have used a sustainable mode to school, so they walked, they biked,
or they took the school bus, have a reduced probability of being car dependent today by
12 percentage points. Wow. And that experience increases the probability that their children
use a sustainable mode by more than 30%. All right. So to all of the cargo bike riding parents out
there, you are doing it. You are the change that we want to see in the world. Absolutely. Yeah,
keep doing it. Man, that's fascinating. Thank you so much. Well, that has been just, this has been
a really fascinating conversation. I want to thank you so much, Nicole Corcoran,
Deborah Salon, and Weitam Jam. Honestly, I can't wait to see what you guys do next. And
just a big shout out to ASU and to the larger community in Arizona that I see a community of
people who are in this heavily car dependent part of the United States, who maybe are able
to see the challenges even more clearly than anybody anywhere else, and who are doing this
really, really important foundational research to give other people more choices about how to get
around and have more robust and sustainable mobility. So thank you so much for coming,
sharing your research. It's been a real pleasure.
That's it for this episode of the War on Cars. Thank you so much to Nicole Corcoran,
Deborah Salon, and Weitam Jam of Arizona State University. Thanks so much for being with us.
We will put a link to their research in the show notes. Remember, you can support us and get
exclusive bonus content, pre-sale access to live show tickets, free stickers, and more by signing
up on Patreon. Just go to patreon.com slash the War on Cars pod. A big thanks to everyone who
supports the War on Cars, including our top contributors, Charlie G of Human Powered Law
in Portland, Oregon, Mark Headland, Virginia Baker, and Brandon DeCoster. And please pick
up a copy of our book, Life After Cars, freeing ourselves from the tyranny of the automobile,
wherever you get your books. You can also find us on tour and learn more at lifeaftercars.com.
The War on Cars is sponsored in part by our friends at Cleverhood. Listeners of the War on
Cars can save 15% on the best gear for cycling and walking now through the end of March with code
puddlejumper. Just go to cleverhood.com slash War on Cars. Thanks also to Upway,
where you can get the best prices on a brand new or refurbished e-bike. You can also save $100
off any order of $800 or more with code TWC100. We will put the link in the show notes.
The War on Cars is produced with support from the Helen and William Mazer Foundation.
This episode was edited by Samantha Gatzek. Our theme music is by Nathaniel Goodyear.
Transcripts are by Russell Gragg. Our logo is by Danny Finkel. I'm Sarah Goodyear.
I'm Doug Gordon, and this is The War on Cars.
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