Banks SCREWED The Car Market (SCARY DATA) | Episode 913

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It's noon here in Ventner City, New Jersey, and our nation's capital, and this is Car Edge

Live for Thursday, August 28th. And apparently, it's collared shirt Thursday, and your hosts

today are, well, me, Ray Ventner, and I love that collared shirt there, handsome.

My lovely son, Zach, in Washington, D.C., how are you today, handsome?

I'm doing fantastic. Happy Thursday, August 28th, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning into

another episode of Car Edge Live. Today's show, folks, brought to you by us, caredge.com. Check

it out. Say goodbye to car dealership games forever. We just did a huge release, all sorts

of great things with our AI negotiator, so kudos to JP and Phil on the team especially

for making that happen. We heard your feedback. We made a bunch of changes, and if you

scroll down, you're not ready for AI. Well, we've got 20% off our car buying services

negotiation expert and our concierge car buying service. Folks, learn all about the ways Car

Edge can help you back at caredge.com. And again, kudos to Phil and to JP on the team

for getting a bunch of incredible releases out last night that our community was asking

for. Now, the big story this morning, Dad, banks screwed the car market and

we have some scary new data. Can I share with you what the really big story is? Yeah, go

for it. The newest seller trains went into operation today. The new high speed up to

160 miles an hour. I'm just not sure the train tracks can actually keep them going

at 160 miles an hour, but the new trains are out starting today. And hopefully, my

ass is sitting in one of those first class seats on September 9th when I come to

Washington, D.C. to see you. I hope it is, too, Pops. I hope it is, too. The other

big story is this that we have from TransUnion, Dad. Auto Lenders Drive used

car loaned value ratios to new peaks. Let's start here. Can you please explain

what a loan to value ratio is, and then we'll get into the data, which is very

concerning. A loan to value ratio is exactly what it sounds like. If a vehicle

has whatever its value is, that would be, if the loan was at that value, it would be

100% of loan to the value of the vehicle. When you go beyond 100%, okay? Every

part of the loan that is above 100%, that is collateralized by air. Okay?

So, I mean, really, what is it? So, if the norm was 120% or 125%, well, that

means the moment you sign that note that the value of the vehicle is already 25%

less than what the loan is that the bank gave on it. So, 25% of that loan

is collateralized by good old air. All right. Perfect. So, when I show

you this data here, you should be concerned about how much of these vehicles

are being collateralized by air. We're going to go through the bullet points.

I appreciate how they do this over there with CDG News. In Q2 2022, just 38%

of used vehicle loans carried LTV ratios above 120%, meaning buyers

owe nearly 20% more than the car's worth at origination. By Q2 2025, that

number jumped to 53% pops and used car loans above 140% loan to value

ratio nearly doubled from 17% to 31% over the same period. Why is this

concerning and why does this give me the credentialing to say that banks

are screwing the car market? I'm going to make it even worse for you.

Sure. Okay. Loan to value ratios are based on the retail value of the

vehicle. Typically, that figure is they come up with that either using

NADA guides or some other guides as to what the retail selling price should be.

I don't know how to break it to everybody, including the bank's out there,

but the wholesale value that the dealer has tied up in that vehicle is

less than the retail value. So, if you're doing 100% of loan to value,

you're really at a negative position to start with, because guess what?

The dealership doesn't own it for what they're selling it for.

There's a profit built into that from the wholesale price that they paid

for the vehicle. Plus, I'm going to make it even worse for everybody out

there. We're going full screen for this, folks. Going full screen for the

worst. Yeah. Loan to value is based on the retail selling price plus

tax title registration. So, if you're on a $10,000 vehicle and the tax

rates 8% and the title and registration fees are another 300 bucks,

well, they will finance the $10,000 plus the $800 in sales tax plus the

$300 in title and registration. So, they're already behind the eight ball

before they start. And then, if they go up to 120, 130, 140%, let me tell

you, there is nothing securing that vehicle other than the good old

fashioned air that we breathe here in our great country, the United

States of America. Let's keep reading through the CDG article because they do

a good job explaining why this matters. Another interesting data point,

independent finance companies are now averaging 139% loan to value

ratio on used car loans that compares to credit unions at 128% in banks

and captives, meaning like those that work directly with the OEMs, at

115%. This is what's so damning about, we talk about it here on the

channel from time to time, like what's the one dad, Westlake Financial,

or we talk about what's the other one, credit acceptance corporation.

Yeah, those are who we're talking about here who are proving loans up to

139% on average, which means again, 39% of what you're doing

isn't even the value of the vehicle, you're just, you have exposure right

there. And when we scroll down, dad, they do a great job here explaining

the problem, high loan to value ratios over 100%, put buyers in a

vulnerable financial position often leading to prolonged debt

and limited financial flexibility. I think this also ties into a little bit of the

data we have and Edmunds has on negative equity. It means you're coming to the

table with a vehicle that you're already upside down on and then next thing

you know, you're going to the next dealer to do your next deal two,

three years later, you're bringing even more negative equity to the table.

So this perpetuates a cycle that really makes it financially miserable

for a lot of consumers. It makes it impossible for a lot of consumers.

Once you get caught on this like hamster wheel, it just keeps spinning faster and

faster and you just keep getting deeper and deeper into debt.

And the likelihood of you ever getting out of that, it's kind of like

taking on $10,000 worth of credit card debt and making minimum payments and

expecting that at some point in time, before you die in the next 60 or 70

years, that you will actually have paid off that $10,000 in credit card debt.

You will not. Okay. And so if people just keep taking negative equity and

rolling it into the next loan and then rolling it into the next loan and into

the next, the bank is in essence creating a debtor's prison.

These consumers are in jail. Okay. They don't realize it as they're

getting into it. It's like a frog put in a pot of hot water and then the water

keeps getting hotter and hotter and the frog doesn't realize, oh, I'm about to die.

So the same thing that happens with these people that take on these loans at

inflated loan to value ratios. It is the epitome of, do I want to use the word

stupidity? It is the epitome of stupidity in that A, we allow it to happen and B,

we don't educate the public better so that they know not to do it.

A few more bullet points and then we're going to switch gears. All right. So here's the example

with elevated loan to value ratios. Vehicle depreciation often outpaces loan

pay down, especially a loan term extends beyond 72 months. I'm going to do a quick

shout out over on our website folkscaredge.com. If you go over here and you click on

what's my car worth, you'll actually be able to see your loan pay down versus the projected

future value of your vehicle. I click right here and I can go view my Subaru Outback for example.

Whoops, let me try that one more time. Apparently they know you don't have a Subaru Outback.

No, it's right here. It's right here. And what's interesting dad is if I put in here,

let me hit edit, if I put in here that I didn't pay cash and instead financed this vehicle

and I put all my loan term information in, I'd actually have the projected vehicle value

and that pay down. So two CDGs point, this could be a situation where you end up having,

the depreciation is outpacing, paying down the actual loan. The longer it takes to pay down

the principal, the longer the loan balance exceeds the car's declining value, deepening

negative equity. So that's one of the problems here. It actually creates that feedback loop

where consumers roll over debt inflating new amounts, which in turn inflates loan

to value ratios. And it also makes refinancing more difficult as lenders are cautious about loans

without sufficient collateral, limiting borrowers ability. May I say one thing about that third

bullet point? Sure. And it also makes refinancing difficult as lenders are cautious about

loans without sufficient collateral, limiting borrowers ability to secure lower rates.

Well, the whole premise of this article is that that is not the case,

okay, that the banks are participating in this willingly. And it's not making it refinancing

difficult because lenders are not cautious about loans without sufficient collateral

because they're already making those loans. Now, perhaps when the collateral is

one thing and then the loan to value ratio is 160 or 170%, maybe at that point the banks say,

okay, that's a bridge too far. If it was 140%, we'd be okay with 40, 50% of

air as collateral, but we're not okay with 60, 70, 80%. But yeah, there is some

untruths to that third bullet point. We're going to switch gears here in just a moment,

but before we do, I have another car in my garage. This one's Ray's Dream, his 2021 GMC,

Acadia all-wheel drive that I track the value of. And here you go. You can see the projected value

and then that green line is the actual loan balance remaining. So I'm in the money here

in this particular circumstance. But again, this is a great free tool that you can use back

at CarEdge.com to see if you're in the money or out of the money or will be in the money

or out of the money on your car loan and your vehicle value in the future. Go ahead, Pops.

I must have put some money down on my dream car. You must have put some money down on your dream car.

Which way you want to take this, Pops? Do you want to go forward with another recall or do you want

to do a Pennsylvania dealership group having to settle a fine, pay a fine for some deceptive

sales tactics? Which way you want to go? Oh, I am in such a good mood, berating the banks

for being complicit in what's going on with these loans that let's do the dealership group

because we all know in the automotive industry there's more good dealers than bad dealers out there.

Don't we all know that? Come on, we all know that. Here we go, folks. Automotive News has a story

this morning. Pennsylvania dealership group reaches $130,000 settlement with the state AG

over alleged deceptive sales tactics. Now, before we get too far into this,

I actually just want to share a really incredible career accomplishment from my dad.

He was recently asked to be an expert witness in a state AG trial against the dealership group.

So, just if anyone has any question, who Car Edge works for, we support consumers and we support

dealers who play by the rules and want to bring transparency to the auto industry. So,

we'll break this down in a moment. But dad, you were recently asked and I think

you're pursuing being that expert witness. I was. And as I said to the two attorneys

from the Attorney General's Office, I guess by doing this, I've pretty much

ended my career in retail automotive because ain't nobody going to hire me now if I were

the expert witness for the state against the dealership. But that's who we are. That's the

whole basis of what we do is to be a consumer advocacy organization. And so,

you know, at a certain point, sometimes in life, you have to make the hard choices and just do

what's right. And it, you know, even before I was 74, I prided myself on always trying to do

what was right. And so, if nobody's going to hire me after I'm an expert witness,

that's okay. Yeah, I think we're okay with that. Let's keep it moving here, Pops.

So, the Pennsylvania AG announced this settlement, essentially what happened, dad,

is the Rosado Group. So, this is, if I'm not mistaken, what's the dealership? It was,

where was it? I don't know. Yeah, the Rosado Group.

Here's the Rosado Group, excuse me. Here we go. Here we go. Dickinson City, Hyundai,

Leighton Kia and Performance Kia of Musik. That essentially what they did is they inflated

prices of vehicles without customer knowledge and manipulated credit applications to sell

more cars under the settlement, $130,000, which will be given to those affected customers.

In a written statement, the group says the agreement with the State AG includes no admission

of wrongdoing. The business says it agreed to the settlement rather than spend time and money

on a court fight. The settlement, excuse me, the statement goes on to say in part, quote,

our customers are and have always been our top priority and that they are implementing policies

and programs to reinforce customer care. Absolutely, their customers have always been

their top priority. Absolutely, all they're concerned with is their customer's well-being,

especially after they've been deceptive in the practices as to what they charged them

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I remember, if I may, there was a time in my career when there was the great recession and I got let

go. I was looking for a job. The interesting thing is when you look for a job and you go on

to every dealership's website, because I would want to learn a little something about the dealership

that I might be willing to apply for a job for it, because there has to be, philosophically,

there has to be a match. Well, if you read the about section about every dealership in America,

these are the greatest, nicest, most customer-friendly people in the history of mankind

until, of course, you work for them and until, of course, you try to buy something from them.

It is, words, to quote a friend of mine, words are hard, but words are easy to come up with a

press release that says, oh no, we are really, we are, it is unbelievable how concerned we are

about our customers and our ability to take advantage of them. It is, it all starts at

the top, ladies and gentlemen. Okay, what do they say? The fish rots from the head? Well,

at a dealership, it's the same thing. It all starts at the top. If the owner, if the dealer

principal is willing to employ deceptive sales practices, that's where it starts and every

member of his team is going to take the lead from him. It is, hey, it's okay to lie, cheat,

and steal and, well, I better be a better liar, cheater, and thief than anybody else. And so,

until we can change the thinking of dealership principles, the owners of these dealerships,

to say to it or to see to it that they want to do it the right way, nothing's going to change.

And I, I've read the damn comments. I see the comments and, and you know, you're always

bashing car dealers. Well, there is so much news generated every week about dealerships that are

doing stuff that they shouldn't do. And, and so yeah, that's why I bashed dealerships. It's,

I think I said it the other day, if there's 18,000 new car franchise dealerships in this

country, and we want to be really, really, really generous, maybe 1,000, maybe 1,500 of them

do it the right way, and the rest of them fall into the category of we are just going to take

advantage of as many people as we can. And if and when we get caught, it was just a cost of

doing business. When we write that settlement check to the FTC or to the State Attorney General's

office, because we ain't never going to admit any guilt. And we are just going to put out a

press release that says, Oh, we are looking into our policies and our procedures, because

whatever we need to do to make it right, we're going to make it right, because we're here

for that customer. They're there for the buck. And don't ever forget that. I'm off my soap

box now. Maybe five, six years ago, I ruined any chance of ever having another job in the car

business. But it's just how I feel. I can't hold those feelings back. There are certain times

in your life where you have to call a spade a spade. You have to call it like it is.

And if most of the dealerships that we encounter are so full of BS and so full of themselves,

that we just have to call them out. I'm sorry. For the good ones out there, we're going to say

wonderful things about you. The SHOMP organization in Denver, they do a great job. It's a

negotiation-free selling system that they use. Earl Stewart. Hey, we're just trying to say some

nice dealers out there. In my opinion. In my opinion. All of that was in his. In my opinion.

So here's one of the cool things that ties to this, which I would be surprised if more

state AGs actually aren't reaching out to us soon, dad. It's because we've actually been able

to, with the AI bot, capture so much data. And I want to share some examples of that really quickly.

So folks, just in the past week, we've gotten 2,500 out-the-door quotes from dealers. And we're

figuring out ways that we're going to share this information on our website on caredge.com.

But here's an example of an out-the-door quote we got. And you can see right there. It says

there are $4,588 in add-ons. Again, the AI negotiator reaches out on your behalf,

creates an alias for email and phone number, contacts dealers, negotiates on your behalf.

You can then interject and all that fun stuff. The reason I'm bringing this up is because dad,

if you go to the actual listing of this vehicle from the dealership, you can see it right here.

I pulled it up on the screen. And it's a 2025 GMC Sierra 1500. They have it advertised at $48,634

today. If I go back over to the caredge website, so give me one second here. I'll pull

this up on the caredge website. We can see the price history here. They've been all over the

place on the advertised price. So they've kind of been all over the place. But today,

they've just loaded up $48,634. They've got a sales price, an internet price,

purchase allowance, a bonus cash. There's your price, right? $48,634.

I'm guessing that's my price until I actually go to buy it.

So here's the deal, folks. This is what the AI negotiator does. But more importantly,

this is actually all of the data that we are able to capture and then share with our community.

Here's the actual out-the-door price when you contact the dealership. So the discount's actually

larger. Somehow, we got a $7,246 discount. Oh, no, it's the same exact discount, excuse me.

Yeah. $7,246. So that matches so far. Yes. Selling price, $53,134. So we've lost

purchase allowance and the bonus cash, it looks like. Yeah.

Okay. So we'll have to ask a question there. They've added now $1,000 for window tint, $1,000

for door edge guards, $1,295 for graphene ceramic exterior protection, $1,295 for infotainment screen

protector. And then obviously, we have the dock fee of $999. The rebates, though, there they are,

the $4,000 in rebates. They did come back except we were at $27,50 and $70. So like a little bit

fuzzy on the math, but our total out-the-door price. Yeah. Even if we back out the taxes here.

So let's back out the taxes because we're at $59,502. Back out the taxes. So we're at $56,000.

We still went, we went from $48,000 to $56,000. And last time I checked, I'm pretty sure the AI

negotiator, the AI bot, didn't ask for window tint, door edge guards, graphene, ceramic

exterior protection, infotainment screen protector. And to be explicit, this is the

type of crap that these dealerships do and we're able to obviously capture.

I would have to ask, a window tint for $999, is that for my entire neighborhood?

Will you do everybody's car? Door edge guards and ring guards. Oh my goodness gracious. $1,000

for that. $1,000 for $20 worth of clear film. Seems so reasonable. And I am sure if you go to

this dealership's website, they are going to talk about how the customers are so important to them

and being a part of the community. And let's see if we can even find where it says that they're

going to add add-ons, right? Because we've got a price here. No asterisks or anything.

Please note we turn our inventory daily. Oh good. Let's go to the bottom of the page. Let's see here.

Prices do not include tax, tag, registration, any dealer installed accessories or dealer provided

benefits. Additional fees include a pre-delivery service fee of $999, $98 tag fee, $199 and 75

cents electronic registration filing fee. So there they go. They're covering their butts

right there to make sure that they're doing things legally. It's just a heck of a pain

point if I'm actually a customer trying to buy this thing. Okay, so yes. By the letter of the law,

are they advertising it legally? Yes. Is the law set up so that it is not a deceptive practice for

the customers out there? Yeah, the law is set up to favor the dealership and not the consumer.

That's what the problem is. This goes on in state legislatures throughout the country

where for whatever reason our elected officials who are supposed to represent us don't give a crap

about us. They give a crap about filling their pockets. I am sure that a lot of these laws are

structured with the aid of dealership associations and lobbying groups. Those lobster dinners

ain't cheap, but they're very tasty when somebody else is picking up the tab. For sure,

pops. For sure. This is one of those situations where I'm going to say, we've got to get the

lobbyists out of this. For sure, but I don't want to make this- We're working in our benefit.

I don't want to make this too much of that type of show. I was bringing it up because again,

what happened in Pennsylvania, we had a dealership group actually reaching $130,000 settlement. Again,

when you read the article, there's another quote from it. Many customers discovered higher

final costs due to the dealership disguising add-on costs that they were then reluctant to

remove when discovered. Is that not any different than what we're describing here and showing

and demonstrating? Again, what gets me excited about it is we've now built a system that

doesn't require human beings in the loop, the AI does it, to be able to name these bad actors.

No. I think it's great that this is the type of data that at some point, if a state reached out

to us, we could share that information with the attorney general's office or whoever might be

asking consumer whatever it may be. This is the type of stuff that the hope is will finally level

the playing field between the customers who are trying to purchase these vehicles and the sellers

who are trying to sell these vehicles. Exactly. It's actually a benefit for everyone involved

to bring this data to the forefront. Pops, let's switch gears. We've got our update here

briefly. Ford, up to 105 recalls so far this year. The latest one, let me pull it up from

automotive news, 500,000 vehicles here in the United States over brake fluid leak.

All right. We've got Ford Edges from 2015 to 2018. Lincoln MKXs from 2016 to 2018.

Yeah, man. This is F-ed up. Yeah. Brake fluid incontinence. I don't know,

do they have the pens that they can put over the system to capture that brake fluid?

So that I don't know, when you hit the brakes, there's actually fluid in there that will work

for the whole day. We're getting, I mean, actually, how many days have we passed so

far in the year? How many days so far this year? Wait for it. There's 125 days remaining. So what's

that mean? We've been through 240 days. Ford's averaging a recall every other day almost.

God bless them. Everybody's got to be good at something. Okay. And they have found their

specialty. And their specialty is having to constantly recall their vehicles because they just

don't build good ones. I don't know any other way to say it. If you're Jim Farley and your

executive team at Ford, you can try and put as positive a spin on this as you would like.

But the only way to put a positive spin on it is to say we are revamping how we build things

so that what we build is actually a quality vehicle as opposed to when we said quality was

job one. Obviously, we didn't mean it because it turned out quality was job none. It is,

I know Ford had a better idea and apparently the better idea was to build a worse vehicle.

I don't know. The bean counters must have done the research and came to the conclusion while

it's just cheaper to fix them for the people who actually bring them back for the recall

than it is to build them right in the first place. So yeah. Isn't this nuts, man? It's

another one. It is beyond nuts. It is... We're going full screen again. Okay. It is

how does a company like Ford retain the management team that it has when they have, for the last few

years, proven their incompetence when it comes to being able to build a quality vehicle without

issues? The rewards for that should not be continued employment, big bonuses and big salaries.

The rewards for that should be you're out. You don't deserve to work here. There are people who

do know how to run businesses like this. Obviously, these guys don't. These guys and gals don't. So

it's it just seems to me that it would be time for someone on the board at Ford to say we need

to make a change. Just, you know, and I'm available and I don't you know, I can do just

as good a job as they're doing because I don't know the first damn thing about it

and apparently neither do they in my opinion. You're a funny man. And I do it for less.

You do it for less and still be happy. Again, folks, if we can help you out with anything,

say goodbye to car dealership games forever. Check it out back at caredge.com. Again, J.P.

Phil, thanks so much for the big update you made to the AI negotiator not ready for AI.

Take advantage 20% off our negotiation expert service and our concierge car buying service.

Saw a comment early in the show about Rivian. If you're looking to buy a used Rivian,

our team can help. Obviously, if you're buying a new one, you don't need us. Don't even don't even

think about it. Check it all out, folks, back at caredge.com. You got questions. We got answers

down at the bottom of the AI negotiator as well as our car buying services. Please, folks,

please, please, please. If you're in the market, you know anyone in the market,

send them our way pops. I'm out tomorrow. You're on justice. So we have a show tomorrow.

I'm also going to be out on Monday, but you know what? Everyone's off on Monday. So enjoy the day

off on Monday. We're back on Tuesday, you and me or caredge live, but you're here tomorrow. So

please, everyone, tune in tomorrow with justice. Well, you know what? I'll be here because I enjoy

my conversations with justice and maybe he won't censor me as much as you do.

Oh. See you on Tuesday, folks. Love you. Have fun this weekend here, Sima. I love you.

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Banks SCREWED The Car Market (SCARY DATA) | Episode 913

Subaru Outback

GMC Acadia

Gmc Sierra

Lincoln MKX

Ford Got Ford

About this episode

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