Battle of the Alpinas: The 2-Car Garage Challenge + ICE Comeback? | Full Throttle Talk Podcast

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Welcome back, it's Full Throttle Talk, your favorite weekly podcast.

And of course, I'm here with Casey, David, and Paul.

And we've got a really great show for you this week.

We're going to be talking about automotive news that caught our attention.

We're going to be discussing Alpina BMWs, which I hopefully Casey's ready to present

because that's what it says in my notes about that.

We're going to talk about building the ultimate two-car garage with Alpina BMWs.

So we're trying to keep things interesting for all of you.

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to, and obviously a lot of other comments and questions and thoughts and things

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Gentlemen, let's start.

Welcome to today's podcast.

Excellent.

Welcome.

And David, I hope that picture is not from Charlotte, North Carolina.

Well, it feels like it is right now.

Let me tell you, it is, it's freezing here.

It's, I like how it says tag a tag a bar.

Yeah.

Well, that's, that's AI for you right there.

The target is right there.

Did you really make that, did you really make that with AI?

I did.

Yeah, I have a bunch of these.

We do this, we do this event and, you know, once a month it's called

target bar, right?

So we host it.

Normally it's outside.

So I normally post a little something up ahead of the event so that

people know we're still doing it, remind them, whatever.

And I was, it's freezing cold.

So we're going to have to move it in, but it's tomorrow night.

So this was my post for the last night on Instagram.

So there you go.

So we'll move off that though.

Yeah, we will.

Well, it's a good vision.

Santa's, Santa's cold.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, so what are you guys doing cars this week?

Paul, you first.

The biggest thing was, and this is one of my favorite cars is I got

to finally drive my GT3.

It was the first one of the, I think the second car after

surgery I tried to drive as a manual and I got around the block

and I was just in pain.

I was like, there's no way.

Cause if you've driven in Tim, you owned one of these cars.

The manual is like a 930 manual.

It has got to be the heaviest modern clutch to operate.

And I just, the only way I could operate, I think that I first

tried driving at six weeks ago was just pushing my left leg in

with my left arm to operate the clutch.

And I took it out this weekend drove it to little cars and

coffee that they have on Sunday morning in Lido.

And then the funny thing was, I don't have a picture of it,

but we're driving down PCH, if you're familiar, Tim, from Lido

to Crystal Cove and just to kind of continue because Lido kicks

us out by eight o'clock, eight 30.

And there is this young attractive Asian gal driving

a Lamborghini matte black something that was the worst

burble tune I have ever heard.

Let me enter. So am I supposed to relate to the young

attractive Asian gal, the Lamborghini or the drive from

Lido to Crystal Cove or all the above?

I guess everything, but yeah, all of it.

Yeah, all of it.

OK, yeah, because I was, I was vibing.

So and we're cruising through Cronelmar, which is a quaint

little town, which is a 35 mile an hour speed limit.

And there's probably 20 exotics, porches, you know,

the the Stuttgart Lambros car, the GT3RS, there was probably

four or five of those.

Sorry, Dave. Sorry, Dave, indeed.

My car was the put this way was the second oldest car there.

There was a 930.

And I'm like, and then in front of our whole train

is a is a highway patrol and or no, Newport Beach Police.

And I'm like, how is this going to go down?

We are it looks like everyone set their cruise control for 35.

I mean, we could not go.

We look like a parade.

He pulls into a left turn pocket and I'm like, OK,

maybe he's getting coffee.

I'm watching my mirror.

Yep, it's exactly Tim.

He comes out behind all of us.

And I've got a dealer plate on and I do look old in the car.

I take my hat off.

So I look even older, like I don't belong with these people.

He pulls right behind the Lamborghini.

I'm like, oh, they have to do.

I don't even know how you drive that car

without making it burble tune.

And the minute they lift it off the gas and it's just

and I think it even loaded it up because it just went bam.

He lit them up, pulled them over,

never found out what happened with it.

But it was really cool to do that.

And just really quickly,

they had it finish line, which is that high end car storage.

It was Porsche Day, which whenever they do Porsche Day,

I mean, there was, I don't know, 300 Porsches.

Wow. It looks phenomenal.

It's yeah. What was it?

Build ground up or what was that adapted from?

Yeah, good question.

There was a I think it was some kind of storage building,

maybe public storage, but they really gutted it.

And I mean, here's an example.

This is my friend Kip's place, which here's the irony is

mostly these places, these owners have other storage.

This is this is just a plain white box with a mezzanine.

He fork lifted up this Model T

and this is a replica of the Mercedes first vehicle.

And then that is all real brick that.

Oh, shit.

And if you could, I don't know if you could see the ceiling,

but the ceiling or barrel shape, which it's not originally.

And then if you look in the upper corners, like right over there,

he's built skylights into it that change based on daylight.

But there's actually no window there.

It's just basically a screen up there that looks like the sky.

It's or it's I think it's a glass thing

with a light behind it that changes shade.

And you know, like I said, he's got a collection,

another warehouse full of cars, but I mean, just spectacular examples.

But anyway, that's what I did.

There's as you know, in Southern California, if you ever

guys want to see what we have a choice of, if you go to Instagram,

my friend Leo has, I think it's cnc underscore events.

And thank God he did this because now he basically

lists every event happening Friday, Saturday, Sunday in Southern California.

And I just send people out of town.

Here's his Instagram.

There's probably already listed for this weekend, 30 events,

you know, cars and coffee, toy drives, things like that.

So we are certainly spoiled, but not a bad weekend.

Dave, how about you?

What did you do in cars this week?

Well, spent a little time handing out full throttle talk stickers over the weekend here

as evidenced by my image behind me here.

But a couple of different Porsche events always like Paul mentioning

Toys for Tots sort of thing.

So there was two events, same day, two different Porsche dealers.

So this was an Hendrick, very cool little outlaw three fifty six

that they pulled inside.

We've done a little bit of work on that car.

But there was some really neat, you know, other pieces there,

obviously on the dealer floor, the four RS that I just took a picture of

because it's sort of mirrors.

It's the four RS version of my car with the kind of the

the color combination and so on.

Why sock package?

I thought that was kind of cool.

And then they had a new turbo or a fiftieth anniversary turbo there, too,

which I love the interior on.

I didn't grab a picture of that interior, but I think that's a great, great car.

Then there was another event that was at the other

Porsche dealer that I did as well, took the GT four, excuse me,

GT three RS to both of them, a lot of fun.

Now I'm up over 400 miles on that car.

So it's been cold.

It's really been hard to go out and cold and rainy and kind of miserable.

So haven't really had a chance to drive it much, but hopefully this weekend

we'll get it out and find some cool roads to take it out on.

I'm sure everyone wants to know what do you think so far?

Grand 400 miles going to the winter.

So not the greatest time to test it.

But what it's so different.

It is so it's so different.

I mean, that's really I can describe it.

I mean, it's like the absolute extreme end of these cars.

I'm not this is this is certainly super nitpicky stuff,

but I'm not a super fan of the Pirelli tires that are on the car.

I say that is because I find them to be noisy,

noisier than than other tires.

I mean, I had my 991 I switched out to Michelin's

and it made a giant difference on the noise on the tires.

And so and especially when it gets cold

and you're turning the wheel to back the car up,

it makes it sound like it's dragging the whole front end of the car

when you're backing it up on on cold pavement.

So just one of those, you know, nitpicky things, but the car is phenomenal.

I mean, no, no question.

You know, for what it's worth, Dave, sorry, they call that tire scrubbing.

Dave, we would get calls like that all the time at the dealership.

So basically when you change the angle in the front end of a Porsche,

the tires do this and you're not getting that contact patch on the ground.

And that's what that comes from.

The only way to fix that is winter tires, which you're not going to do.

Changing a compound to another summer tire like another 200 tread wear

won't alleviate that issue.

It's just it's just the time of year with the temperatures of the ground

and then a cold tire.

So I found honestly, though, Casey,

when the minute I swapped out those Pirelli's to the Islets,

it improved it dramatically.

So it might be compound, might be contact patch or something.

Casey, what do you mean by what you said?

It changes the camber when you go backwards?

Sorry, when you when you change angle of the steering, the camber changes.

Right. So like, let's say you're turning left, the camber will do this.

So you're so when the car is under G force, the tires will pull themselves flat.

So the camber changes.

I mean, it's always, you know, when you're driving straight, sorry,

it's like this, but when you change angle, your tires do this.

And it's basically so that you're able to get grip under high G turns.

And David's way to see it is to see a race car at full tilt going around a corner.

You can see how the tires lay on the ground.

Dave, you're you didn't have a choice between the Perles and the Michelins.

You they just put on what they're going to put on it, right?

Yep. Yeah.

And so so you could have very well three cars as the as on the assembly line,

that guy got Michelins and you got Pirelli's.

That's the way it works in Porsche land.

I don't know. I think it's all I think they all come Pirelli.

I'm pretty sure it might also be market driven.

I mean, Casey, that's possible, too, right?

Location, you know, I know it's it just depends on what's coming down the line.

They're the only tire you could have selected on a Porsche

would have been for a nine 18 if I'm not mistaken.

But it's whatever rolls down the line.

They have enrated tires.

The the shop that I work with a lot, the race shop,

really enjoys the Goodyear option that was available for that car

of the three that I look after.

Hmm. I don't even know what they are.

I can check and report back.

But I think I know at least two of them are Goodyear.

I think one of them is Pirelli.

Well, it'll be it'll be interesting, Dave,

because with the GT my GT three, I don't know what it would have come

with back then and just tire technologies changed so much.

When I bought the car, it had Michelin Pilot Cup Sport twos,

which are this close to being an R compound.

Honestly, for street driving, which is all I plan on doing,

they were wretched.

I mean, they took forever to heat up.

They didn't do well with going up to the mountains and mass change in temperature.

They were good for a track tire.

I put the Pilot Sport four S's on and and and hopefully I'll have

they'll have five S's by time I put the next set on magic tires.

I mean, they do everything well.

And it'd be curious on an RS, which I'm sure is coming with an aggressive.

Are they do they come with under 200 tread wear or or just at 200?

I didn't look at the tire.

That would surprise me, obviously.

I would be curious to see if they make a four S five S tire

for that car. So when they wear out, I just think they

you know, for how we are driving, I assume you're not anxious to go to the track.

The amount of mileage I'm going to have on at the tires all age out

before the wear out, I guarantee. Yes, hopefully, right.

And the Pirellis, especially Pirellis, they just they do not like sitting.

But Dave, Dave, what would you sell that for right now?

Like, what would it take for someone to like think, think, think?

Oh, many money money.

No, no, money aside. Money is going to take.

Well, money's aside, then I'm not selling it.

But the bull would have to be north of four somewhere.

No, no, no, no. Not money, dude.

Let's not talk money.

What would it take to a car wise in a similar price range?

Like, don't worry about making money like someone comes along and says,

I'm going to take that and I'm going to give you this.

This is whatever you want it to be.

No money, change. Right.

I would get a paint.

And because I've talked about this because it was funny.

I was at the dealer and literally they know I've had it for three months

or whatever. And the guy's already asking me, so what do you want to do next?

So hard dealers.

I would probably drop down to a GT three manual car

in a paint to sample color that I really liked.

That's what I would do.

Interesting. If it were me, I would do more than I is that I, you know,

certainly more than I'm ever going to need or use.

So I'd probably take a GT three, because I think it's a better overall,

just if I'm going to drive it around car.

So like the highest mileage, 911 R.

Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.

I was told money was no object.

Oh, so I'm only following the road.

Yeah, but you're your car.

What's what is your car worth right now?

High threes?

Probably. Yeah.

Yeah. So I just did some diligence on tires.

There are five N rated tires for that car.

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup twos, which are two 40 tread rating.

Preli P zero courses, which are an 80 tread rating.

What? Super sport are good years,

which are an 80 tread rating.

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup two hours, which are one 40

tread rating and Pirelli P zero

Trafeo RS tires, which are a hundred tread rating.

So my guess is that this one has the courses on it.

OK, so that is let me go back and it's an 80.

That's an 80 tread wear.

So that is a big part of the reason that you're having that issue.

I do know the highest tread wears the Michelin at one 40.

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup twos are two 40.

Wow. That's still going to that's still going to be a loud tire, Dave.

But yeah, like Paul said,

I'm a huge Pilot Sport for us fan.

If you can get those that fit, put the other ones in a put the other ones

in a shed, preferably a climate controlled shed.

And then enjoy a nitpicky thing to say as well,

because I mean, the car is phenomenal.

I mean, if I'm going to what do you expect when you've got that much

rubber underneath you, it's going to make some noise.

But I just know certain tires are just more noisy than others.

So so I had a new touring.

I had 992 touring, right?

And I have to tell you that the tires, which I don't remember,

they would definitely I don't they weren't the Michelin's.

But the tires basically were 30 percent of the reason that I sold that car.

It was so effing loud on the inside.

It was insane.

It ruined the experience for me.

And the 991 we had did not do that.

And probably had better tires.

I think I didn't like talk about that.

And finally, Jerry had to buy him tires because they wouldn't stop complaining about it.

It's so frickin loud.

There's no insulation back there.

There's no anyway, what a bitch about so if the Porsche really terrible

Porsche tires are en rated are like Lamborghini spec tires X rated

like who's got the X rating on that?

I was wondering why they call it and is there why wouldn't

they just have it as P for Porsche?

They've evolved it.

But N stands for norm in German, which means version.

Any other dumb questions, Paul?

I will have a few more.

I'm writing them down just so I don't forget them.

Casey, you're next.

What did you do in cars this week?

Weather has gone to crap in the Mid-Atlantic.

They have salted the roads.

I did get some time in the Land Cruiser.

The other week, which was tremendous, basically, I'm selling a GT3 for a client

and I had to bring his factory wheels and factory exhaust to put it back to original.

So that's been that was enjoyable.

It's been a while since I put good miles on that car, but it was nice.

A lot of the other stuff that I've been doing is just prepping cars for bring a trailer.

There's the one that we talked about for the Carrera S.

And you can see the beautiful 996 is behind it.

You've got six coming up, right?

In January, I do.

I have a whole lot coming up.

Go back, Casey, really quick, that picture.

Yep. Are those three 996 cup cars?

The one on the right with the stripe down the middle of it, that is my buddy

Mike's car that he and Randy Pope's won the 2006 24 hours Daytona in.

The middle one is a 2004 GT3 RS.

That's the one that I take care of.

And the other one is a GT3 FIA competition car that I help my client get from England.

That was that's the last version of the Porsche 911 of that level

to feature an H box manual transmission.

Following that, the 2004 went to the RSR platform.

And that was the first introduction of sequential in those cars.

So the 2003 they made 20 of.

So that one in the middle, is that a street GT3 RS?

Yeah, that's the one that you guys have seen me drive around before.

OK, but I thought so.

Is it got like blue graphics or red?

They only came two ways.

Right. OK, it's got red graphics on it, but that that's a cool car.

So anyway, lots of bring and trailer preparation.

Here's a really nice super, super original 89, 944 turbo.

But the other thing that I wanted to bring up and it's a little bit of

something that I like to do is supporting when I worked at the dealership,

we would do these events where we would sell stickers to support this group

called pets with disabilities, which is basically cats and dogs that, you know,

or have a whole bunch of issues and traditionally can't be taken care of.

So they go to this place, which is they either place them

with people foster people that are able to take care of them

or they have a sanctuary for them there.

And it's a I really miss doing that at the dealership.

So if you go to my website, I worked with a local artist here in Baltimore

named Ben Clausen, that's really cool.

And he helped me design this T-shirt idea, which is my dog Ellie and Jet,

which is a no front legged lab that runs around like a T-rex,

which is pretty awesome.

And if you go to my website group securation,

you'll see that there is a tab that says charity shirt.

Basically, I've had the shirts made already, but it's just a prototype.

I'm going to refine it a little bit and then I'm going to sell them

and raise money for the animal, for that animal charity.

And it's it's super important to me.

So if you guys would support it or at least sign up for information,

you stickers, we're going to.

So basically, my goal is this.

It's going to be 50 bucks and it's going to be a T-shirt and a sticker

and it's going to be shipped anywhere in the continental United States

and every cent of profit, which should be about 21 or $22

will go directly to the animal rescue.

Zero of it goes to me.

How much are you planning on? How much do you hope to raise?

My goal would be to sell 100 shirts.

So two thousand bucks.

And I have an idea just knowing what my audience is to help raise money.

If you come up with stickers that aren't too big,

like a normal size sticker.

So it's funny you say that it's going to be the thing behind me.

But I've been trying out sizes.

That's three and a half.

That's three inches.

So I put them.

I'm going to cut them out and put them on the side of my car

to make sure that they look OK.

But I was saying if it's something as simple as a sticker,

which is super easy to mail, I'd be open to doing a promotion

on our website, maybe send an email out.

And then just I think a lot of my clients don't care about T-shirts.

But if you just say something like, hey, 20 bucks,

you get three or four stickers.

Sure. And so it's a great idea, Paul.

Thank you, CentPace.

Yeah. And then, you know, I think those will do well for sure.

Yeah, I'll donate. I'll donate 500 bucks.

You don't have to send me anything.

I appreciate that.

So send me a money request and whatever we'll wear it today.

You got it. Awesome.

Yeah. No, I appreciate that.

And oh, one last thing.

The 964 has not moved much because the weather is absolute shit,

but it starts and it runs perfectly.

No issues there.

And I just spent $2,500

with their friends at Elephant Racing for front and rear control arm

and spring plate bushings.

So there you go. Nice.

Cool. Awesome.

What do we do this?

I don't know if you guys remember,

but I say Julie, but it's really ours.

That's our Alfa Romeo Quadrifoglio.

And if you guys have never driven one of those things before,

which I'm pretty much guaranteeing that none of you have,

it is really an exceptionally fun car.

It's a do you guys know about those cars?

Do you know? I've driven one.

I thought I would love.

Oh, I was wrong. Wow.

No, I've driven I've driven one.

And I if they made an estate wagon, touring,

whatever you want to call it out of that, which they won't,

I would be I'd be tempted.

It's awesome, right?

I mean, they're very nice crazy.

But it's basically a Ferrari.

What was it out of the California that became the Portofino that became the Roma?

It's basically that same V8 with two fewer cylinders.

And, you know, everything about it's a lot of fun.

It definitely, definitely has an Italian car vibe.

Well, obviously it does, but it's so different

than any of the German cars that we have or any of the modern stuff,

especially the German cars, definitely worth, you know,

in the prices of those cars is shockingly cheap.

In the U.S. that car knew was 85 grand, you know,

and I don't even know what it's worth now.

I don't I don't follow it.

But so the one downside is that because Julie is a bit of an aggressive driver,

as am I, we do go through tires.

So it's got 6,000 miles on it.

We need to put tires on it.

So we're going to, you know, frankly, we're already,

I already ordered them.

They should arrive today from the rack, Michelin Pilot Sport for us.

So those are on the way.

That is the only thing.

Well, and then we went out and explored some.

I actually had some local Puerto Rican folks.

Um, say a few things about comments in our previous shows about lack of Puerto

Rican driving roads and actually had my neighbor pull me aside and, you know,

tell me I didn't know what he was talking about as far as what the driving

roads were.

So I went online and researched and Julie and I went on a drive.

So on hill, I did listen to you.

Okay.

So for the record.

All right.

So let's move on.

Um, let's talk automotive news and I, I'll, I'll go last because I

probably have too much to share with you guys and, and, uh, so Paul,

why don't you go first?

Automotive news.

All right.

Let me switch this picture, which, which is really funny because if I take

my hat off, it looks like I have long hair.

That's awesome.

I didn't realize that till this morning, but if you want to see me

with long flowing hair, but no, uh, far more attractive.

Um, that's Amelia Hartford.

Uh, if you know her from YouTube, you know, you may call her an

influencer, influencer automotive.

She's awesome.

Very, very cool.

Very, very cool woman does a lot.

But anyway, both her and Tanner Faust have gotten together with, uh,

forgot the gentleman's name, Michael George, and they've started

another channel called driven, which, you know, one, do we need

another channel to driven drive time, drive tribe, the drive?

I mean, it gets a little bit confusing, but I do like the ethos of

it, which is basically content creators can own their own content.

You know, what, what Amelia said, which was probably the most

succinct and I'll just quote her driven will give creators and

talent more autonomy and we'll do so in a way that allows them

to give their fans exactly the kind of content they want instead

of serving an algorithm.

And what I imagine that to be is this channel.

Do you remember when speed TV came out, speed vision?

Like for us car people, that was like the first TV channel that

was just all the stuff we wanted to see.

I mean, before that you would catch ABC wide world of sports

with a half hour segment on like F1 recap.

And there they had everything from world challenge series to F1,

whatever.

And I think now it's gotten further away from that.

It's hard to capture that.

So hopefully that happens.

Now, this is not public news, so it could be rumor.

I have heard rumor, nothing I can find publicly that possibly

Tanner Faus says some health issues that are serious.

I don't know anything more about it, but I do hope this launches.

I do know Richard Hammons trying to relaunch.

Do you remember Drive Tribe that came out like 16 and 17

with the top gear guys and it kind of failed because no one

knew what the hell it was.

I know Richard Hammons trying to relaunch that, which their idea

is basically people in the automotive industry, whether

they're drivers, mechanics, builders, engineers, designers,

they have a channel where they basically communicate with each

other and you, us as a nobody, get to sit at home and watch

from the sideline.

Paul, do you know you keep saying channel, but so channel

would be implied that it was YouTube, which would not be

in alignment with what you just said.

Amelia was talking about.

So are you saying this is a standalone website?

Because if it's a channel on YouTube, you're basically YouTube.

No, no, it won't be on YouTube.

It won't be on YouTube.

It's going to be some other platform of website somewhere

you go to that's not hosted by someone else.

So the content creators, I look at it almost as an

automotive content creator co-op where everyone owns their

own content and you're not getting served based on an

algorithm where I have a hard time finding stuff that I

know what I want to watch, you know, like even when we're

talking about a peanut, I knew that there was a great

interview with Andreas, the founder, and it took me forever

to find it because YouTube just kept on serving

everything else up.

So it'll be interesting.

Yeah, they just changed their algorithms too.

I mean, obviously they do it all the time, but there

was a big one in our other space in the real estate

space, which we found out about after because they

don't, they don't send out a notice saying guess what

the rules have changed.

And so it's constantly having to play whack-a-mole.

So good for her.

Can I tell Amelia's story, which I think is kind of funny.

Yeah, absolutely.

So the thing is, the thing that's really awesome about

her is that she's a really great presenter, but also

a great driver.

And it's not, and I don't even want to remember her

sex when I'm saying that she's just great period

regardless of her sex, you know, and that's

something that's really cool about her because

normally when someone's trying to say, you know,

they always say it's a female presenter and somehow

we're supposed to give her a little bit, you know,

okay, well, that's reason the content's not as good.

Her content is freaking better, frankly, than half

the shit I see out there from anybody else.

But I'll tell you what really made me love her

is that she was driving, guess what, Paul?

Corvette ZR1 at Coda.

And let me just roll my eyes.

Okay, okay, we got it.

Okay, go back.

All right.

So she was driving the Corvette ZR1 at Coda

and she was really excited to get it so pumped up.

Did you guys see this video?

Do you remember what I'm talking about?

And so she went out and drove this thing

and she's freaking fast.

It's a lead and follow deal.

She's catching up.

Girls got some real seat time, real skills, obviously.

And she comes back in.

She just doesn't look right.

And she said something which made me forever

respect her.

She said, I get sick when I drive.

I get nauseous when I drive.

It really, really fast, which I know a lot of men do,

but a man would never admit that he gets sick when he drives.

You know, so I just thought that was kind of funny

that she's that, you know, comfortable with herself as a presenter.

So anyway, I'm sure they'll be very successful.

And I, you know, obviously thoughts and prayers to Tanner

with whatever he's dealing with.

Hopefully nothing at all.

And it's just a silly rumor.

Yep.

Good.

Casey, you're up next.

I threw up at the Porsche Experience Center in Atlanta.

Was it a Taycan?

No, it was a GT3 RS.

You should have said it was a McConn.

The funny thing is, is I got sick at the track

and then I was in the bus on the way to the airport.

And I had to make the bus pull over.

So that's nice.

Well, that's horrible.

When they launched the story, when they launched the Taycan

that at Pecla Porsche Experience Center in LA,

they were doing these rides and they would just do like five

or six laps, that tiny little track.

I sat in the front.

There's these, I don't know, husband and wife sat in the back seat.

After lap two, they wanted out and lap three, they both threw up.

And that was OK.

So listen, I didn't mean to take a bend for the story with telling.

OK, so we can move away from, you know, vomit stories.

Come on, I'm humble enough to say that I am a man and I threw up.

Well, you were in the passenger seat, though, Casey, right?

You were riding that time.

I was in the passenger seat.

Yeah, well, that's completely forgivable, right?

You guys have any hacks for not getting sick

when you're riding along?

I've had different people tell me different things.

Eyes up, always eyes up.

Well, I wear those like sometimes you wear those.

Yep, relief bands, relief bands.

But the biggest thing is don't look at your phone.

It's hard not to.

Well, is it drama mean?

You know, do you sleep?

Because it totally it totally does.

But when we lived in Georgetown, there was and we went to a range,

of course, there was a lot of special forces guys there.

And I asked him that same question

because one of my guys who was a Marine and also work,

it doesn't matter all the stories, but I rode with him

and he was driving and he made me a car sec.

I mentioned it to him.

One of the other guys there, there was an ex ex seal said

they used to basically buy drama

and buy the fricking truck full for all their missions.

I thought lots of water to lots of water.

All right, cool.

So I'm sorry, Kate, Casey, were you done?

I tried to figure out where there is a range in Georgetown,

but we must be thinking about two different.

George West, best of the West was down by Austin.

And then, and you know, Georgetown, Texas.

No, Georgetown, the part of Washington, D.C.

Oh, no, brother.

You're you those blue, you know, those nice, kind,

hard people would never let anyone

at the gun within 50 miles of that place.

Yep. Anyway, so, so automotive news,

the new Jim Kana video came out yesterday.

It is absolutely tremendous.

I'm a huge Travis Pastrana fan.

Is he's a Maryland guy?

Absolutely check it out.

There's a part where he drives into the Bathurst 1000

on Mount Panorama, which I think is one

of the coolest racetracks in the entire world.

So I definitely recommend checking that out.

And then the other thing I had to report is that the

the Hagerty bull market list came out.

And while I didn't agree with a lot of them on there,

I did agree and it's unfortunate

that they've added the Mark 3 GTI VR6 to that list.

Yeah, which is awesome.

So I'd recommend checking that out as well.

They've got the video out and everything,

but always good to see some Mark 3 love

because they've been very unloved for a very long time.

Casey, the hardest part is find a Mark 3

that's not destroyed.

Rusty, yeah.

What do you think of the other cards

that they were suggesting in that?

And if you all haven't watched that Hagerty video,

you got to watch it.

There was two new Hagerty videos, right?

The one that you're talking about.

I think I watched two Yes Blast Night

in prep for the show today.

But anyway, I just really read about the Mark 3.

I didn't see that art from Driving While Awesome,

his old skyline was actually used in the thing.

And he sold it for not nearly enough.

And then they announced a year later

that it's on the bull market list and they used his car.

I love our 33 skylines.

That would probably be the pick

if I were to ever get one, which will never happen.

Except in the video, it lost to the C6 Corvette Z06.

Sorry. No surprise. No surprise.

But I've not watched the video yet,

but I'll have to check that one out.

Yesterday was a busy day.

Did you guys watch it?

Dave or Paul by chance?

I did. I did.

Oh, good. I watched it.

And then I also wrote for our newsletter,

which I don't know if it's come out yet,

kind of a quick recap of the bull market

and also another newsletter on how they did on last year's,

which would you think I'm I'm seriously

because I thought the video was awesome.

And I watched everyone with the exception of that Dodge Charger,

which I don't know anything about those.

I cannot find any flaws in their logic.

I can't. I actually think the two, you know,

the Carrera GT a little bit.

I feel like I think it was clickbait.

I kind of feel like the shark.

Here's the two things I feel about that.

The Carrera GT was just to have something shiny, pretty far reaching.

I feel like it's jumped the shark a little bit.

But then I go, OK, one and a half million dollars

for a level two plus to one minus Carrera GT.

But what are nine 18 spiders?

Aren't they almost double?

No, the vice of Isak really good ones.

Three million a non vice is like two.

Who would rather have a Carrera GT than I would have a Carrera GT

over the 19 all day long.

And I know the nine 18 is more drivable,

but this is a car that you're looking for an experience.

The only thing I had a question was they had like a Lincoln mark,

two, which looked bad ass.

But I kind of feel like who's buying that?

Like, I know they mentioned that there's younger buyers.

I'd love to see the size of their sample set.

I want to see a 30 year old driving that.

I just yeah, try to I mean, I can picture one on bags

with Budnick 18 inch, 19 inch wheels

and the guys hanging his arm out with tattoos like Tats.

Yeah, the funny thing going back to the charger was watching

Henry Catchpole driving the charger

and it is the least dynamic.

Maybe the ram truck is second.

And you know, when he drove that,

he could tell he was genuinely enjoying it.

And the funny thing was he drove it the right way.

He wasn't like two wheels.

He had his arm on the window sill as you do.

One hand kind of over the draped over the steering wheel.

And so I think he kind of understood the ethos.

I think the skyline is probably the wrong choice

because that's always the red headed step child of the three,

you know, the R32, R33 and an R34.

I think, sadly, to Casey's point,

the Mark three is going to be the biggest jump.

They're just too cheap.

They're really too cheap for what they are.

They're kind of ugly, though.

That's what makes them charming.

But look at art.

You look at a 20th anniversary edition,

they're over 20 grand and R32 or a Gulf are.

Those are 30, 40,000.

You agree with all their assessments with regards

to the Lincoln, except for the Lincoln.

I think the Lincoln's a little bit off.

I think also that black Chevy SS truck.

I mean, I don't want that.

But it's funny watching him watching him.

A British proper British guy freaking, you know,

feigned enthusiasm for American muscle cars.

I'm sorry.

That obviously was to the sake of getting his paycheck.

God bless you, Harry.

But come on, so they flew him out.

Where was that at?

Haggerty proving grounds is Haggerty.

Yes, again, I'm guessing.

OK, to be.

So yeah, but good to good to watch.

And like I said, it's interesting to see how they did

from last year's predictions.

And I want to say, what would the big winners was like a fourth

like 18 percent jump was the big winner.

It wasn't a huge jump.

Where so what where do you think, Paul, if you had

and Dave and Casey, I'm interested in what you guys think

because I've actually been thinking about this for the,

you know, sake of today's show.

What do you think will be the home run catches everyone

by surprise appreciating winner going at the end of next year

and of the specialty sports cars that we all like high nerd stuff.

Oh, not of this group.

Just in general, what in general, like maybe something they overlooked.

Hmm.

Go first.

Dave or Casey, do you have a do you have a thought on what?

Well, tying into this week's show, this week's show.

And I really like her.

You guys, I think Alpenas.

I think true Vin Alpenas.

Oh, dude, way to tie it down.

Love that shit.

Yeah, that's seriously, you know, I agree.

So do you do you have in a case you had your thinking look on your face?

I talked about it before.

But I still think there's head room for both K-minar

and first gen Boxster spider.

I have to agree with that for sure.

But I mean, there's not I'll say this.

I'll propose this to you guys.

I think a Kuntas.

OK, I think Kuntas is right now for five

to six hundred grand if you compare it to the modern equivalent of the Kuntas,

which would be what the F 40 and some similar stuff from that same era.

The Kuntas seems to me to be half price,

especially the late 80s ones that don't have the extra cladding on them.

You know, not the cocaine Miami ones, but those cars,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they doubled in value at least

went up by 30 to 40 percent.

The 89, that's the Horatio one before the 25th anniversary car.

That's what I'm trying to say.

Exactly before they made them ugly, right?

I would not I would be because, look, what do you got?

Generation X, demographically, if you want, we don't need to nerd out on it,

but that's right in the sweet spot of people that are now able to make money

in the economy is getting better.

Housing is getting better.

Exactly. Paul Cramer's influence with that on his logo.

I mean, the whole thing.

So you guys, I mean, there it is.

That's my opinion on that matter.

I mean, Diabla's are still undervalued.

Those in Hummer H two trucks.

Well, so, so I've been in the Ferrari world forever and I've been mildly

in the Lamborghini world and I can tell you that a lot of the Ferrari guys

are going to the Ferrari or going to the Lamborghini world because the Ferrari

the Ferrari space has gotten to be not what people are familiar with.

And now the nature of the market of those with regards to the depreciation

is really sharp and even very well off people.

They're not willing to play the game anymore.

So who knows?

Oh, Tim, I got one Ferrari thing for you.

You ready? Oh, boy.

The other day I back to back to back an F12 TDF and a 12 competizione

and a 12 cylindry.

OK, the first one's the only one I'd want.

How about you? I don't know.

I'm good.

I don't know.

I don't know. I would buy a Land Cruiser.

I would buy a thousand group

securation pets with disabilities t-shirts.

No, dude, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

They're all the exact that is the money doesn't matter.

You have to choose three.

You get to choose one of them.

You get it for free.

Taxes paid, insurance paid, no money issues.

You cannot sell it.

You have to buy it and you have to drive it.

12 cylinder with a lot of the black stuff painted.

But I'd wait for the next year because they have still have that

stupid haptic start thing in the steering wheel of the one that I drive.

Interesting, really.

That's how it is in our 296 to them.

So I thought those would all have the new wheel.

No, it's it's a beautiful car, though.

It's really, really pretty.

Did you drive the TDF just just poking around or did you actually drive?

No, no, it's it.

I mean, those cars are one point six, one point seven million dollars now.

I didn't beat on that.

There's a great Ferrari shop near us called Compatitione.

So I did a little bit of a warm up on it just to make sure that everything

came up happily and then put it on the flatbed to go there for its yearly service.

All right, then.

OK, so David, I think you and I had a lot of similar notes

as far as automotive news we want to talk about.

Well, I'll let you take the the the other one of the picture you have.

I just thought the interest was we'll see if anybody grabs the ring

as they're going around on the merry-go-round here.

But obviously, the Trump administration suggested that

they would be cool with building microcars here in the United States.

You lead. Go ahead.

I think that's an awesome topic. Go for it.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's interesting.

I just don't know if there's a market.

I mean, obviously, I pulled around and looked to see what I could pull up

image-wise and what interesting cars they would be if you started to look at these things.

And I think the little trucks and so on probably have more

market potential here in the United States and some of these little tiny little cars.

Casey, what is this I got behind me again?

I can't remember. What is this thing?

Autosam AZ-1.

There's one team.

That's what he's talking about.

Those types of cars that I just put up.

Yeah, exactly. These little so and this is the American market.

I mean, they've been importing these little smart cars for a while and so on

from Mercedes. Is there a market for these cars here in the United States?

What do you mean city urban centers?

Yeah, there's apartments where they can't plug in an EV, but they want,

you know, fuel economy, small space.

I mean, here's the hard part is like, how do you get an American

out of a bigger car into a smaller car?

We've all I mean, even to the point where my sister,

she's been driving a Honda Odyssey as you know, a minivan for 20 plus years.

You know, kids are gone.

She wants a smaller car.

She's looking at like a Hyundai, what we call compact SUV crossover.

But she really loves something that's even smaller.

I said, well, why don't you get that?

And she's like, it's too small.

I go, for what? You don't have pets.

It's the one person.

If you're in a movie theater and someone in the front row stands up,

then you have to stand up so you can still see the play or still see the screen.

Right. And so as more people stand up, more people have to basically

stand up in the back.

It happens. We've all been in experiences like that.

That's the whole damn thing that's happened with big cars.

People just got bigger than they most people don't think about what they buy.

Manufacturers followed trends.

What I thought was interesting about what David said was by getting rid of the

cafe or I don't think cafes are the right way of saying it,

but they were notched it back to what was the miles per gallon

that they're now making it so that they don't have to shoot for like 55.

It's now like 35 or 32 or something.

I think that's right.

Yeah.

And so those little I personally, I think people will love those smaller cars

and as long as they can be as long as they can be sold, that it's safe.

And again, I've read on this before, but Americans believe that small

there's a reason I sell a lot of hatchbacks in the United States

that small cars don't have as much prestige.

So the perception of the United States is bigger is better for the sake of ego,

basically, and not you guys have been Europe.

So not in Europe doesn't work that way.

Small cars, gulfs and whatnot, a really bad ass.

So it would be a rebranding.

I don't mean to get in a soapbox here, but David brought it up.

There's no doubt in my mind that's going to happen.

And in addition to that, there's no doubt in my mind that we're going

to see a rush back to ice powered cars because America can't win at electric.

Even though there's tariffs and boundaries of that, you know,

Chinese cars are being prevented from entering the United States.

If you look at what's happened in Europe, then everyone, even

the CEO of freaking Ford, Mr. Ford's, the Chinese cars are phenomenal.

The electric ones.

And so the Chinese effectively have won the electric car war.

Um, and so if those they're preventing those coming from the United States,

they didn't prevent those from going into Europe that they've trashed

the European car industry.

So where the hell's the European car industry and the American

car industry going to go?

This is my opinion.

They're going to go back to ice.

You're going to see return of mile hybrids and then you're going

to see finally they're going to take synthetic fuel seriously because

how else can all the global economies of automotive industry compete?

Discuss.

It'd be hard to.

Yeah, I mean, it definitely would be hard to.

I just don't know that the America, because of our space, you know, we

have the benefit of space and other than urban centers, people want

to be able to drive on the highways and whatnot.

And so there is a, uh, and a lack of affinity for these little

tiny, tiny cars.

I don't see many.

So maybe in urban centers, but I would have to imagine as well,

those cars will have to be built in the US.

They're not going to be importing them that have to be built in

Tennessee or someplace in a Honda or Nissan factory or something.

Yeah, but it would take a Paul Kramer and a Casey and a Dave and

me to a much a lot minor influencer or whatever the hell we are.

To say I drove this car, it was an exceptional experience.

I love it.

And then that's how basically you influence people's buying decisions

because most people don't make decisions based on their own

opinions because they don't really have one, certainly not one

that they hold strongly for anything really.

They just do what other people suggest.

So don't forget the, the, the number one selling vehicle in the

US is a pickup truck.

Yeah.

And it has always been a pickup truck.

And that is going to be, they're bringing it back.

Did you guys read that?

Trump made micro trucks legal again, which I didn't even

fricking realize they were illegal or some, maybe like, like

the K trucks.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, I, I think you can't jump to K trucks, but do you

remember, you know, when we grew up in the 80s, we had all

the, you know, the street style pickups, the, the Nissan

hardbodies, super brat.

I learned to stick on a, on an 85 Toyota pickup.

I know, I've not followed the news at all.

So I can't comment on what you're talking about, Tim, but

the, my, my wife and I would love a K van, like a, like a

Sandbar, but me too.

But there, there's the likelihood of the American

public wanting K vehicles is so low.

It's, it's like, I mean, they're, they're putz around here,

but I mean, I don't even like driving my nine 14 on the

Beltway, because I feel like I'm going to die.

If it's cool, it's fun.

You're not worried about safety because safety is the

big psychological issue for all of it.

Um, and they're affordable as hell, considering with the

cost of even a new shit box cost nowadays.

And if it's affordable and the whole thing ecosystem

around it makes them trendy and you know, you get

someone like Paul Kardashian down there to drive it, you

know, the, the, you know, he drives it to cars and

coffee, takes it to one of those rallies and put stickers

all over it and get Magnus, you know, some who get

when there was hat fits in, I think then the rules change.

I mean, this, I mean, the smart car was kind of a

gateway to that.

And then it just quickly got badged as sort of a, I

don't know, just it didn't get a good moniker to it.

I don't think people did not, you saw a smart car

and you just talk about judging who that driver was.

You know, it just wasn't a great look.

But to your point, Tim, if we had four different

manufacturers making eight different models from a

small, I think a small pickup, or like Casey said,

a small delivery van.

I mean, maybe like Delica size is a little bit

bigger, you know, it doesn't have to be K size.

I don't think we're going to jump to microcars

like the AutoZam.

I think we're going to have to just take a step

back, which if you look at the Maverick, that's

kind of in the right direction.

And it's a super popular vehicle, especially for

industry that have all these like Napa trucks

and these local pickups.

And I think if you can take that kind of size

vehicle and make it cool, I mean, imagine you

can go buy a Maverick Raptor.

I mean, that's kind of what we need.

Imagine putting a big, you know, there's

supercharged V6 in that thing and make it

cool.

It's kind of costless.

Do you guys think?

It's a trouble.

Yeah.

No, what Dave's saying.

There you go.

The minute that these things are going to

start and we cost over 20 grand again, right?

I mean, these cars, if they're going to be

successful, they have to be cheap.

And that's a problem, I think, for US

manufacturers right now.

I really, you know, I mean, that's a.

What's because they have too many regulations?

They have too many rules to follow.

The cars have to be so big.

It costs so much money to make them.

And the safety alone, just airbags and stuff

will end and eight ass kind of stuff

will just kill it.

Larger does not.

And I know I'm familiar with the laws

of physics, you know, but the larger

does not necessarily mean safer because

you lose a lot with weight, you know,

you lose a lot of the ability to, you

know, all the things that are

necessary to avoid accidents, you know,

it's not as agile and the rest of it.

So anyway, I'm I thought that was

a really good topic, David.

And I really am excited.

What I thought was really particularly

funny about that whole thing is like,

you know, Sean Duffy and Donald Trump

or, you know, Donald was over in Korea

or Japan and he thought all these cars

are cute and then Sean Duffy was shooting

next to him who's in charge of the

department of whatever it is and said,

well, why don't we just make this

happen? And then all this news came

out about all those regulations

and horribleness that have been,

you know, really, I think really

screwing a lot of people.

How many people what there's a 30%

of all car lawns are underwater

by a crap ton, something like that.

I don't know.

I mean, we're meandering into

politics, which makes me

uncomfortable.

All right.

So here's my.

I want to see Trump trade his Diablo

in for an auto zam.

Bro wouldn't fit.

I mean, I'll just say it.

OK, it would not know.

His hair wouldn't.

That's for sure.

All right, let's go on.

Toy Toyo down.

Go Tim on this one.

You go. Well, you you got you got

the bad. You have the same picture.

We do happen to have a different

version of the car.

But you have the race version, Dave.

Yeah, Dave, which I think is cool

as hell, right?

I have a car with a wing behind.

OK, so what are we talking

about for those of you are listening?

It's the Toyota GR GT twin

turbo V eight, six hundred and forty

one horsepower, six hundred and twenty

seven pound Peter Torque rear

wheel drive, eight speed, rear

transaxle, all the things you'd

expect, two hundred and twenty

five grand put in my notes.

I won't read what I wrote, but no

EV, no hybrid, though, I think

it does have a mild hybrid, but not

a plug in.

Yeah, so there it is.

And that right there, to me,

when I read that makes me so happy

because that is Toyota.

I think they're still the largest

manufacturer of cars in the world

who are saying we're going to put

emphasis and focus on ice powered

cars and that gives permission

for the world to maybe follow suit.

What do you guys think?

Yeah, I think it makes sense.

I mean, as I mentioned in the notes,

they have all these credits.

Like, you know, when you go to

someone like Maserati or Aston

Martin, you know what it would

Aston Martin had to do something

to get what was it a fuel efficient

car just so they can go build the V8.

But Toyota is primed to build this.

And I think it's the perfect example

of you have a leader of a company

that is a car person.

Jim Farley is the same way

and Ford's building some cool shit.

And I think isn't Ikea Toyota

isn't this like it's farewell.

And he came up with the GR Yaris

and the Corolla, you know,

the the GR Corolla.

And now this, I mean,

is this his swan song?

Like this basically,

I don't know, we call it a GT.

It's kind of Mercedes SLS.

It it has this long beak, short rear deck.

It's like a Viper.

It's like a Japanese Viper.

Yeah.

They put a picture of the of the

of the Batmobile.

And it is it is it's kind of like that.

I couldn't couldn't figure out what it looked like.

At least the the GT3 version of it.

And I was like, man, that hood is so damn long.

What I what I saw is if you remember

Saturday Night Live, the cartoon bit

with the ambiguously gay duo and

and that cartoon, the whatever

the vehicle they drove, I just saw that.

But it is cool looking.

It has hints towards the LFA.

But if you remember, they have three versions.

They have Tim's version, which is

the one I think we would all want,

which is a street performance car, Dave's version,

which it looks like a full competition car.

Which they're coming out.

GT3 RS.

I read that they're coming out

with Dave's RS version at the same time.

They're coming out with the normal, you know, our version.

And that makes sense.

And then they had the the was an EV only one,

which was they were calling the LFA.

And that design was really pretty.

I don't think it's as functional.

I mean, I saw that one.

I was like, boy, put the V8 in that one.

But you need to imagine if you if you get home or watching,

I don't think we have pictures of it.

But pull up the EV one

and then imagine that with the V8.

But I I don't think two hundred twenty five thousand dollars.

There's there's no way I don't.

Do you guys really think there's a future

for EV hypercars or even supercars?

Do you really believe it?

Are any of you guys buying it?

No, I don't I don't think so.

I think so either.

I think the idea that Porsche is doing with a hybrid,

which is like, you know,

Torque fill and helping with gear changes.

That, to me, is the best use, maybe over boost.

Like they used to have like a KERS system.

But I well, it's proven.

I don't think Remac, no one really cared about buying those.

You name your supercar.

I don't think Pagani is going to make one.

I can't imagine. Did they make one at all?

I doubt it. So no, they don't.

They don't. And so what's going to happen

with this new seven eighteen replacement?

Oh, by the way, you can thank Ferrari

for the torque fill thing you're referring to

as being a Porsche design.

No, Ferrari.

So what's going to what's going to happen to the seven

eighteen, the EV seven eighteen?

Because they they're they're they are not going to build it.

I mean, they might have used some of that technology

from the GTS and did they say that?

Paul, no, but I'm just imagining

there's no way they're good.

There's no there's no buyers for it.

I mean, I think I think I think the seven new seven

eighteen there, it's going to be a V and ice.

I am 90 percent sure.

Well, I think they have to just because they already remember

it was going to be seven eighteen was going to be only EV.

Right. And then they got all the kickback.

I think they've already gone down.

They've already built the infrastructure.

I think they have to build it.

But I think it's now going to be building it

and trying to figure out what to do with that.

Kind of imagine going in to buy your, you know, who buys that car?

It's the first time Porsche buyer.

They're finally reached their aspirate, you know, aspiration.

They're going to go buy their first Porsche and they're on a budget

and they're going to go buy a electric one.

You were about to throw a swear word up there.

I heard you. Yeah, I don't see it.

Well, it's because if you're of the mindset, if you're the sort of green

wanting to show your green credential types, you're not going to probably buy

a Porsche EV for two hundred and two two hundred and fifty grand.

You're going to buy Elon's thing because then you're going to have

no tariffs and his supposedly is going to cost the same.

Oh, by the way, Elon's car hovers supposedly.

Yeah. Moving on.

What is happening?

But I'm going to be the contrarian and say that the last time I drove

a 918, I drove it for pretty much the entire battery on a beautiful

back road on on EV mode and it was awesome.

It was like being one with the nature.

It's like when I go out and rip around on my Vespa, it's like riding a bike.

It's just this wonderful experience.

And while I love and I'm a huge proponent of ice cars, I own ice cars.

I own no hybrid cars.

I'm excited to try out an EV 718.

Why? As long as you have it

because I think it would be a good experience.

Why don't make another car like it?

OK, I'm not trying to be a dick.

I'm just asking because I genuinely I'm hoping you will convince me

because I see things as a use case for electric cars and electric scooters

and electric toothbrushes and electric vacuums.

Right. But I can't I from an enthusiast perspective,

I don't see why any enthusiasts would ever choose an enthusiast focused car.

Unless it's a, you know, they're just trying to look

as if it's a style statement versus somebody's a true car enthusiast

buying an EV, that's my opinion.

A daily driver, one thing, a weekend sports car, another.

So explain to me why I'm wrong.

Did they have gas powered vacuum cleaners in Puerto Rico?

You know what, you you pull them like this.

Yeah, you do.

Because I think it's very green.

I'm not saying that it should be a replacement.

I'm saying that it's interesting to have it as an option.

And just like Porsche is seeing it, I mean, do I think it would be

a cool car to lease for three years to get the enjoyment out

it as a run around car?

Because I mean, other than the original Tesla Roadster,

has there been a small convertible car with really great driving dynamics

that Porsche is probably going to use all the trickest stuff that they can throw at?

I mean, go back to that old Matt Farah video

where he talked about driving that came in race car on the snow, right?

And that was the electric came in EV because you can do all kinds of interesting

things to push power to different sides of the car,

which you've not really seen in a sub hundred and twenty five thousand dollar

driving experience. I mean, I'm the guy that loves GT fours.

I love my nine sixty four, but having another experience might be cool.

I would look forward to driving it.

Do I believe it's a reasonable replacement

for what I think is one of the best cars ever built?

No, but I do think it would be a cool opportunity to at least try it out and enjoy it.

Our election. So he said the key thing

because it would be a fun car to lease.

Yeah, you lease electric car away, do not buy electric cars.

And that's and the part of me that, you know,

the newest car I have is over 20 years old.

I I just look at it from a historical collector standpoint.

And when that car is 20 years old, will anyone care?

I mean, maybe they will.

Maybe things are different, you know, but I look at it going,

we don't need another disposable car.

And I don't think I don't think electric car buyers give a shit about brand.

And I think if Porsche is going to try to hang their future

or Ferrari or anybody else in the same thing with a new electric youth,

they're going to have their assets handed to them

because the number of people are going to be willing to pay a premium

for a high end brand for an electric car.

The Chinese have already proven in Europe that they can dominate the car markets

because they build a better electric car.

So the cars we all love, I don't think they have a chance

of competing against the Chinese in the electric car realm.

Have you guys considered any of this?

Yeah, I think to Casey's point, I think the boxer makes sense.

If the base boxer came, they made an EV boxer

that was the least expensive entry point to get people

maybe into a sports car that maybe otherwise wouldn't.

But it's going to have to be a compelling price point,

which I don't Porsche builds too nice of a product to have a product

that's going to be cheaper.

I don't know. There's no one in the market like it.

But I just don't know if you just said it, Paul, that's what they should do.

They should come out with an electric.

If they're going to do it low entry level, something small,

your gateway drug into the Porsche brand boxers are pretty all these, you know,

and build it stateside, make it electric.

And without pouring out the brand, that would be probably the best way to,

you know, appeal to that mean work.

When we did that rally and I rented the most base Macon with that four cylinder

turbocharged, two liter, whatever, that the most it really was one of the most

uninteresting motors I think Porsche has ever put in a car.

But take that out of the picture.

Even though it was so base, it didn't have heated seats.

It still had Porsche's magic steering, chassis dynamics and brakes.

And that made that so much fun to drive.

And to Tim's point, if they did make an entry level EV

that maybe it had a hundred and fifty mile range

and it was they kept it light and they made those three things.

And suddenly it's 20 percent less than buying the base ice gas ice boxer.

Maybe they would get people like the nine four.

Remember, that was the nine 14 formula.

Originally, very Porsche built that to attract young new buyers.

Exactly. So don't don't say it's ever been done before.

And for I tried it with the Dino.

And so for people to say they can't come up with a cheap car, blah, blah.

And anyway, let's move on.

But also, Tim, don't forget, if they were do that and it took off,

they're going to get all these cafe credits,

which allow them to build better, more interesting, ice only

premier products like.

So again, without getting into politics, I think this whole cafe credit thing,

this EV mandate, this electric car thing is absolutely ruining the car industry.

And I'm not saying just from an enthusiast perspective,

but actually ruining the businesses themselves.

I mean, Porsche is a perfect example and they're going to be the first to fall.

So all these well intended, you know, environmentally focused,

all these whatever green initiatives, they're coming home to roost

and unfortunate ramifications are well, fortunately for you guys

to deal with older cars primarily.

I think the stuff you guys sell is going to concrete increase in value

because you can't easily replace with anything modern.

All right, let's move on.

I think I was thrilled a couple of shows ago to learn that all of us

thoroughly not surprised love Alpina BMWs.

And so let's go ahead and start at Alpina discussion.

And I think Casey, I was supposed to hand the mic over to you.

Is that correct?

I mean, we can all tag team it.

But basically Alpina started, you know, as a company that from

not mistaken, they built typewriters.

And the guy that the guy that did that then evolved into doing cam work

and doing twin Weber conversions for BMW 1500s.

And then starting from that point, it continued to evolve into racing

programs and then in 1983, they became a scene as an actual

manufacturer in Germany, similar to the way that Roof did

following that point where they got their own VIN numbers.

And basically what I wanted to talk about today is as we have discussed,

Roof has been very prevalent in the market in terms of exploding

in value because it's kitsch.

It's people really seem to like it.

You know, Alpina isn't the same thing.

It's not.

It's more along the lines of AMG, I would say.

And those pre-merger AMG cars have rocketed as Paul and I have

discussed in the past, but Alpina never really has.

There are cars out there that kind of are expensive.

And perhaps the fact that, I guess, BMW acquired Alpina, I think,

in 2023, so now that it's wholly their brand.

And at, I mean, at the end of this month, Alpina will no

longer produce Alpina cars.

They will all be built by BMW at BMW.

And what does that mean for the cars in the back catalog?

I have a friend who has what I consider to be the ultimate Alpina

that I will discuss later in our, in our this or that segment.

But I figured I wanted to get everybody's opinion

on what they thought was interesting.

Do you know why they're called Alpina, the name Alpina?

The Burkhart, which is the son adopted the typewriter business,

just thought it had a good international sound.

I think I remember hearing that.

What wasn't Matt Farah that went over and interviewed the Alpina family

and they, the original stripes, like I'm trying, I'll get a better picture

of our 323 were supposedly from skis.

Like he got the original inspiration.

I just thought that was awesome.

But Casey did say something very interesting.

I thought is that there is the pre-merger with Mercedes,

the whole pre-merger thing and with AMG.

And there isn't with, there isn't yet to be with the BMWs.

And Paul, you talked about this earlier with the Alpinas.

Is those cars probably are massively underpriced if you look at them?

And Casey, why do you think, why do you think they have been underappreciated?

Why do you think they're not, they're not distinguishable enough?

I mean, I think that it's designed to be the type of car that crosses a continent.

It's not the kind of car that is out there to put up a fascination level video.

It's never been the car that was in a 1980s or 1990s rap video that people

aspired to have.

They just didn't have the marketing that appeals to the broader

audience specifically to us in the United States.

But I think they're tremendous cars.

I love the fact that they designed them to be effortless.

It was designed almost to be like the Bentley version of a BMW.

And it just, it just didn't, it never translated.

What I was fascinated by, and you guys forced me to do a lot of research on

this was the roof analogy that Paul brought up, that the roofs actually

still have roof of VIN numbers.

And Paul, I think you're probably going to know more about this than I do.

So roofs are actually taken off the Porsche assembly line and given

a separate VIN number and they're an actual manufacturer.

Again, not an expert this, but I believe the Alpinas before BMW bought

them actually, they had their own VIN numbers, but they still kept

the BMW VIN number too.

So they had a building number.

I got both.

So I think initially they were what we would call a tuner company.

You know, this is in the 60s and 70s.

You know, the my old mentor had a 67 Alpina 2000.

It started life as a 1600.

I remember that car and Alpina ended up putting, you know, a

two liter motor from the 2000 CS.

And then as they mentioned, did double, you know, dual lever carbure.

They evolved by the late, by the early 80s, they became their own

manufacturer and they did what roof did, which was they got what's

called a body and white, a non VIN chassis and they would build it.

But like roof did the same thing.

They had those and then they had customers who would go by a brand

new BMW 320.

They would drive it or ship it to Alpina.

And then to your point, Tim, they would get two numbers.

They would have an actual BMW VIN and then they would have

an Alpina number.

So you had kind of those.

And then by time you got, when was it early 2000s?

You would buy Alpinas at the BMW dealership in the U.S.

And I think at that point they were, yeah, at that point, they were no longer.

You know, they were no longer their own VIN number.

They was just a BMW.

It was a BMW.

I think when you listen to I put a thing in our note, Matt

Farad had Andreas

Bovenspien, Bovenspien

who is the son who is now taken over.

Now, what's interesting about Andreas is in the late 90s, he was an engineer.

His dad, instead of working for Alpina, made him go work at BMW as an engineer.

So he was tied into the whole Z8 program

as a BMW engineer before ending up running Alpina.

Now, without Pina selling their whole brand to BMW,

the thing that I find most interesting is they're going to be doing

what Roof is doing without building new cars.

They're going to have this heritage division where they're going to take

like, for instance, Tim, you're you're 320 or 323.

Imagine you in 10 years, you send it back to them

and they redo the whole car and now it gets, you know, a new life

and they're going to have a whole classic division.

And by the way, I was thinking of saying it today.

I was thinking of saying it today for that exact reason, by the way.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, but so our car is not our car was a customer BMW.

And it was, if I remember correctly, it was obviously over in Germany.

It was owned by a somebody in the US military, I believe.

I'll have to read all this again.

And he essentially had BMW Alpina essentially assemble the car for him.

Everything but the motor.

And so he ended up having the motor done in the United States

in the 80s, I think, or maybe it was the 90s,

then it's got some sort of big hot rod motor in it, but that aside.

But that's, for example, what Paul was talking about, if you guys are on YouTube.

So it's backwards, sorry.

But that's the BMW, the Alpina bill plate for our 323.

But it's got a European 323, you know, E21, then number.

So, you know, that's what he's talking about.

And then with that plate on your car, Tim,

it has a single digit first and a dash.

So yours says three dash one thousand seven, whatever.

Right.

The three stands for the third year of being an Alpina manufacturer as a manufacturer.

So your car is what, in 1981, 80?

80.

80. So I think 77 was the first year or 78 was the first year, 79 second year.

And then 80.

So that's what the three is for.

That's the number of years they've been producing cars as a manufacturer.

And then the other ones in that year, that's your sequence number.

However, that works.

We can talk about it later, but my biggest issue with Alpina is not Alpina.

It's the Alpina, I don't know what you call them, fanboys, forum dorks.

The ones that just die on that hill.

It's not a real Alpina, you know, and it's such a confused.

They didn't realize it was a small manufacturer building cool hot rods that,

by the way, most of them were not legal in the U.S., even during the gray market

time, so they had what Hardy and Beck and they had Dietel in Southern California.

They had all these licensed Alpina dealers, way more than Roof.

Roof, Roof didn't have that stuff where they would build these Alpina cars.

And then they would say, well, those aren't a real Alpina car.

And then Alpina doesn't keep the best records per se, especially back in

the early 80s.

So there is, I read through the whole listing of your car and your

car is really cool, Tim.

I, the biggest takeaway was I was shocked that the Alpina dorks didn't

come out of the woodwork and just flame the car for not being, you know, this

and to be Alpina has to have the motor done because the owner, the current

owner and the previous owner were high cast Alpina dorks.

That's okay.

So that's, that's what made it legitimate.

But I've, I have sold a couple of Alpina cars and oh my God, talk

about dot your eyes and cross your teeth.

Let me interview you about something.

Okay.

I remember Paul, this was, I mean, I don't remember one year from 10 years

old feels about the same.

This may have been more than 10 years, but you had an E 21 Alpina for sale

and people got like rabid frickin dogs after you're asked.

And there was a really, really cool car.

What happened?

Yeah.

So it actually was my mentor and the old owner of our building, Nick

Reed's car.

He had bought it, but the guy back when they, when BMW launched the E 21 series,

especially in the US, they knew they had a problem, which was with the

small regulations, they were going to sell a slower car than the pre, than

the 2002.

And so they were trying to figure out how do we make this car faster?

And the big dilemma that BMW had was, do we make it a turbo

charge car or do we make it a six cylinder?

And this is the relationship Alpina had with BMW is similar to roof.

BMW has Alpina and the reason they have such a close relationship is

they get to use them for Skunkworks projects.

So they basically gave three body and whites to Alpina E 21s, just

blank slates, no VIN number and said, you build us versions of each

and we'll see what we want to do a six cylinder and they built

two four cylinder turbos.

And basically these were halfway finished cars because they weren't

really interested in a lot of interior and so forth.

So at the end of the story, BMW goes, you know what, we're going

to 323, we're going the six cylinder route.

We're not, we don't want to deal with the plumbing of the turbo.

So they had these two turbocharged cars.

The guy I was selling it for, the guy who built it, he was the

head of Cosworth F one racing.

He was the engineer behind it.

He was working out of college.

You went to college in Germany, but as a U.S.

guy, he went to work for Alpina.

He was the engineer on that project.

So what happened was him and the other engineer snuck away

these two cars.

They didn't have a VIN number.

He got this brilliant idea.

He was going to put it on a container with a bunch of new

BMWs going to the U.S.

to go to a dealership and he lived in Colorado.

Literally that car got through customs with no VIN number.

What year was this?

This is 81.

Good old days.

Gets into and it gets delivered to his nearby dealer in Colorado

with no VIN number.

And he tells them, hey, guys, it's on the same boat.

I'm going to pick it up.

It's it's a race car.

He gets it.

He makes his own VIN number and registers it with the DMV like

you did back then, because the VIN number, the last three digits,

say 320, yeah, the odds of that.

And so but and so then but here's the funny is while

they're working there at the factory and they're building

these, they're just raiding the parts bins.

They're getting all this stuff from Alpina, the seats, the gauges,

the cluster.

So he built his own car.

It wasn't in the VIN registry without Pina because it wasn't supposed

to be a streetcar.

It was technically supposed to be crushed.

He just happened to escape with it.

And it was a really fun car to drive.

You know, that car will never have Alpina lore.

It's just this weird footnote.

But we had all this documentation from the guy who actually built it

because he sold it to my friend and he was he was in the off season.

He used our shop to rebuild his Testerosa motor.

That was like his fun.

He built engines for fun.

Anyway, and I like you said to him, holy cow, I was naive.

I had no idea how the Alpina group will eat their young at the first chance.

They were honestly worse than the Long Hood 9-11 guys.

Way worse.

And that's saying a lot.

And so the funny thing was I sold it to another side tangent.

I sold it to Paul Zuckerman and I was very clear what the car was in the ad.

And Paul Zuckerman had a roommate in college who had an E-21.

And so he just wanted nostalgia.

And I remember he goes, can you bring it by my law office for me to test drive?

And I'm like, I'm not taking it there.

But turned out I had to go see a client.

I said, OK, fine.

Test drives that falls in love.

It drove fantastic.

It was a great car.

We're sitting in his bullpen.

It felt like if you watch the movie, Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, I mean, it was just

the quintessential sales pit where everyone chest bumps and rings a bell for whatever.

And I go, hey, it's 20 grand.

And then he pulls out of the credenza, 20 grand in half hundreds, half 20s

used like rubber banded together, not new bills used.

And I go, well, there's tax and license.

And I goes, how much is that?

I don't know, 10 percent.

So he just another two grand out of the credenza.

I'm like holding this like I do not want to put this money under a black light.

I have no idea where it came from.

But and then, you know, he he goes to he he lives.

It takes him six months to get it out of his system.

He calls Canapa to I think sell it to them to pay for whatever

restoration they're doing.

And they just call Alpina Alpina goes, we have no record of that.

And I told him like, of course not.

So the car is last I heard is one of the largest BMW Alpina collectors

up in Northern California, where it should have been.

That's where it should have been.

And he drives the piss out of it.

I mean, this guy's got one of the V8 E 46 M3 GTR race cars

that he takes to the track.

It's like, so we should take a step.

We should. Thanks for sharing that.

We should take a step back.

So Alpina, when it got bought by BMW, moved away from being

true performance cars and they're not the badass hot rods that they

used to be.

And what was the first like move away from being a badass car?

Was it the Z8 or was it something before that?

Well, I think it was the fact that after the E 34, they no longer put

a manual in a V8.

I think that if you had to talk about E 34 was the beginning.

And by the time you got to the E 39, everything V8 had a

step chronic, including the Z8, which, you know, if you listen

to that link by the smoking tire, he describes the ethos of the Z8.

And and unlike Roof, which is Roof is trying to make these cars

that go 200 miles an hour, that can drift around the Nürburgring

and kind of what Casey said, Alpina was building a luxury GT,

you know, cruiser in the newer version.

Not not the whole one.

But even when you get to the 90s, they're really kind of going

that direction, high level materials, nice finishes,

stroker motors, big, big torque.

And and in the end, I think, you know, what it when he was interviewing

with Matt Ferri, he said our average driver drives 30,000 miles

a year in these cars, they're Autobahn bombers.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, did these cars move all three of the cars

that you guys have behind you versus the car I have behind me?

And none of them are painted in Alpina blue.

Now, was that something that came on later?

There there's one, obviously.

That's it. That's it.

When when did that come on as sort of the

color that you were getting if you wanted Alpina?

I'm not really familiar kind of where where Tim.

Well, when I looked at like E thirty fours

and it showed all the number of the cars I was looking at for this or that,

I'd say a third of them were called Alpina blue.

I don't know, Casey.

To me, Alpina blue seems like a nineties thing in newer.

Yeah, there's a bunch of them in two thousands.

You know, a lot of seven series, a lot of this this eight series behind me here.

I mean, I see a lot of them.

I mean, I've got a neighbor who has two of them.

He's got an 06 and an 11, I think, both seven series.

Do you guys remember in that blue?

Do you guys remember who Alpina's main competitor was?

Paul, I'm going to count on you to know this.

Who was their main competitor primarily in Germany in the BMW Hot Rod?

Was it Schnitzer?

Hartman, Harky, Harky, Harky, Harky, Casey.

Yours has a Harky header or Harky header, right?

But we had long story, super short when we were in college.

I was going by Patrick BMW and I always looked to see what they had

way in the back, the shit they wanted to wholesale that the wholesalers passed on.

You know, that back row behind the back row behind the back row.

And there was this white 323 there.

And obviously I was really into it.

And then I got into it.

It was a real Harky H3 that someone had brought in.

And this dealership couldn't sell it.

They were really afraid of it.

It was originally meant green.

Someone painted it, you know, went through.

It had a hard time in the ages kind of thing, but long story short,

that's really got my obsession with the E21s because that car

was so much frickin' fun to drive.

You know, it just was.

The E21s, if you've never driven one, they are tail happy sons of bitches.

Even with all the right things done, but they're so they're so visceral.

It's it's the equivalent of a.

I'll say I was going to say a long hood, but I don't think that's fair.

It's equivalent of a an 80s narrow body 9 11.

I would say a mid year 9 11, 74 to 77.

But the funny thing is you knew there were good cars

because the BMW community used to call them food for 2002s.

2002 builders would take all the good, all the stuff out of the E21.

The steering rack, the suspension, the transmission,

everything but the engine and put them in the 2002.

And that was really their big downfall was they just had,

especially for the U.S. market, a really shitty engine.

So a really nice.

And again, I follow this, a really nice 100 percent 2.8 liter

B6 E21 whole thing, a hundred grand.

I think there was one that sold a red one that sold for like

a hundred and nine thousand or something like that.

There's hardly anything that ever come for sale.

Mine's arguably not as well, not arguably.

It's not as valuable as I say, one that was like a true Alpina

because this was a customer car.

I think we paid forty eight thousand for ours.

It doesn't make sense to me, especially the ones that are a hundred percent

pedigreed won't go up significantly in value.

But I could be completely wrong because I don't think a lot of this.

I don't think there's a lot of emotional attachment.

Casey said this to Alpina is a brand versus AMG.

It was never on Miami Vice, for example.

And also they were just cars people bought and used.

Yeah. And and they got they got the fact that one survived.

So many of them got even like the Harkie and so forth where they got repainted.

They got parts taken off.

People would sell them.

They go, I want the steering wheel and get one complete is really hard.

And I think, you know, when you look at the value,

the most expensive vintage Alpina product is the Z8.

I mean, what is it?

Let's get to that. You're you're tearing us up, right?

All right. So let's move on to segment four.

This or that build.

I think this is your idea, Paul, build a two car garage

with a daily driver Alpina and a weekend Alpina, no budget, no duplicates.

Did we duplicate? I didn't look.

Someone didn't. OK, good.

Oh, that's awesome.

Winner for the single best choice of the best two car garage pairing.

I don't know, Paul, what's the winner going to win?

Maybe a full throttle talk sticker.

Exactly. Maybe as one of our viewers mentioned,

something a little bigger will get a bigger sticker,

although I love the small stickers.

Casey, why don't you go first?

You've been waiting.

I want to go last because I'm going to win.

Oh, you know, that son of a bitch is going to win.

I see his list. Damn, Casey.

That's not fair.

That's why I wanted to talk about this.

I have my buddy has the best Alpina in the world.

He fills out the spreadsheet last listeners

so they can see what lame answers we come up with so they can basically.

I don't even look. I just made sure I didn't duplicate it.

I think I hopefully we didn't pick the same one

because the problem is that you would use like B10.

They would use that same moniker and E34 and E39.

So, yeah.

Well, David, why don't you go first?

So, remember, you have to do you have to do a perfect pairing.

You've got four choices, which would not be a pairing.

No, no, no, I suggested in the notes, Tim,

it was going to be a game time decision here

based on what everybody else was going to do.

But since I'm going first, I'll go with the two I was going to go with.

Anyway, I don't think I'm going to do anybody else.

So with my affinity for the E38, there was just no way I could not pick

a, you know, a V12 Alpina E38,

this particular one behind me, long wheelbase car.

It was hard to find, you know, and I went back to a lot of sales

of these cars to find an E38 BMW 7 series to find one.

I think this one sold over a year ago.

But beautiful example, I happen to really like this Alpina blue.

It's for me, when I see that, I know what I'm getting, right?

And maybe that's a maybe that's a good thing.

Maybe that's a bad thing.

But can I ask you questions about that one?

So that was that that's a that's a 750 IL E38.

That's a Alpina.

Was it was that an Alpina like built car or a customer car?

OK, so that's that's really bad ass so far so good.

Five point seven liter V12.

This one had about it was obviously European imported car,

which many of them are clearly it's got the full regular kind of set up.

I mean, the all the the the the typical styling cues for the Alpina set up.

This one actually sold for seventy thousand dollars.

And it goes back a ways, actually, now that I'm saying it's two years ago.

So over two years ago is the first one of these I could find.

I could find a ton of later at seven series Alpina cars,

but not any E38.

And that to me is my sweet spot on the seven series.

So that is your daily that's your daily, right?

That's my daily.

And then my weekend, I wasn't going sports car.

I kind of wanted practical, sporty fun, though.

So in this case, I went for a well, hang on a second.

Let me let me pull this up here real quick.

This happens to be a ninety six E three, three point two in line six,

two hundred and forty five horsepower, I think something along those lines.

This one had been converted from the automatic to a much later.

I'm trying to remember what car it came out of.

I think it was out of an M three.

So this car was really kind of nicely set up as a fun, sporty little driver.

And now, again, Alpine, the Alpina blue,

never a big fan of the gold accents and stuff when they put it with the blue.

But, you know, this was a nice car.

The interior is a little kind of plain Jane.

Looks like you would sort of sort of expect.

I only have a small picture.

You can see that one seat there in the back.

You can see that it's got the manual conversion

and cloth inserts on the seats in this particular year.

That's very European as well.

Europeans don't seem to like or don't go as much leather

on the inserts and stuff on their cars.

They do like them a little more spartan.

But if you see the panel, the plate on that one as well, above the glove box.

So it was a real deal car as well.

This one only sold for 40 grand.

So I thought it was, you know, reasonably good value as well

and would be a fun car to tool around in on the weekend.

So there's my two.

It's interesting that both of those are from the same generation, by the way.

Yep.

Late 90s, pre-crisp angle.

There you go.

All right, so those are my two next.

Yeah, I I didn't actually find listings

because when you really get into some of the the really

a lot of these alpinas, they made very few.

So my daily is a 94 to 96.

It was based on the E 34 chassis, which I absolutely adore.

Even in the non-alpina world in the M world or regular E 34s

are kind of unloved, which I never really understood.

It started with the 540 touring chassis, the V8.

They stroked it to 4.6 litre.

They made 340 horsepower, 354 pound feet of torque.

They had a top speed of 170 miles an hour.

This is in in a wagon in 94.

They only made part of the reason 19 of these wagons

and they none of them came to the US.

You couldn't really gray market it.

But, you know, if it were me, I would do either Daytona Violet

or I think is it this one that's Oxford Green?

Well, there's Daytona Violet.

That might be Oxford Green.

Here's what the engine looks like, which looks kind of like the four

you know, the four point, the four liter V8,

but obviously a little bit different.

Here's a silver one.

Look how good that looks with the stripes in silver.

So that would be my and and going back to we talked about values.

I think it's hard to find a real true VIN number alpina,

even with only 19 of these made.

My guess is these sold these sell right around six figures

because the bi-turbo sedan version of these are in the 70s.

These are harder to find.

As my weekender, I adore the looks of an E30 M3.

This is one of my favorite bodies, but the problem was the US.

He's showing if you're listening only, he's showing at E30 M3

with the box vendors, which I didn't even remember that they met

an Alpina version of that.

So so they did.

But going back, by the way, the the the daily one is called

the Alpina B10 4.6 Touring.

This is an 88 to 91 based on the E30 M3.

It's called a BMW Alpina B6 3.5 S.

But they made several versions of the B6 on the E30.

I think not sure if they were on the E30, but not sure if the E30 M3.

It was a five speed get track dog leg, a 3.5 liter straight six

two hundred and fifty five two hundred and fifty four horsepower two

thirty six torque, but Tim, they only made sixty two of these

when they trade hands, one hundred and fifty to two fifty,

which by the way, that's kind of the same price range as a sport Evo,

which would have been the top M product that we didn't get.

Here's a picture of it in the interior.

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but so you're saying that's a three

point five liter inline six.

Is it an Alpina motor or is it Alpina motor?

It's not a hard transplant from, say, for example, an E34 M5 or anything like that.

Well, they probably start like most of their cars, except for when they

made BMW build their own block.

They probably start with, I don't know, Casey, what they would have

started with a three liter straight six, maybe I would assume.

And then they stroke it to three point five.

So very torquey, which is, you know, the ethos of Alpina

was these torquey engines.

They weren't necessarily high revving.

And, you know, I've raced E 30 M threes, you know, US ones.

I've driven tons of them.

They are the most underwhelming because they look so pretty and they are so

fricking slow, but then we sold about five years ago a true sport Evo.

And I drove it all the way over Angeles Crest.

And those were what, two hundred and fifty horsepower out of the S

14 that was stroked to two five.

And then when they drove that, I was like, oh, my God, this is the car

BMW should have made.

I've driven S 52 swap D 30 M threes, which I have a feeling that's what

this is probably going to feel more like, which except I'll bet you Alpina

gets the weight balance better and the suspension tuning way better

than the home mechanic.

But I would I would love to have these magic looking in your garage.

And you've got that and that.

And and by the way, like I said, this is, I think, the biggest thing

that shifts Alpina in terms of enthusiasm after this car, the E 34,

no more V eights with a manual transmission from Alpina, which I think

is a travesty, uh, be no more V eights from Alpina, which is a

travesty with the exception of the manuals.

No, with a manual. Oh, man, you got me.

Thirty four was the last manual V eight.

And by the way, when you watch that video,

Andreas wanted to put a 12 cylinder in the Z eight and they just couldn't fit it,

which imagine the Z eight with a 12 cylinder.

That would have been rad to take the E 38 engine, boom, like Dave has

and drop that in the Z eight.

But it would have because when you listen to it, like the funny thing

about the Z eight was the only reason that thing succeeded.

It was very the parts were super expensive, but the development

costs were nothing. Well, people already built.

People don't realize that the motor from Dave's 750, basically that

12 cylinder was the same motor that they put in the original McLaren F

ones. I'm sure it's not like a crate motor.

I'm sure it was modified and whatnot, but isn't that interesting though?

I think it's interesting.

It tells you that that motor itself must, I mean, I'm sure it was heavy,

but couldn't have been that heavy or Gordon Murray would have never

have used it in that mid-engine monster.

You know, so yeah, interesting.

All right, good, good choices so far.

I didn't even, I didn't even know about that E 30 M three Alpina.

So I appreciate the education on that one.

And frankly, Dave, I didn't know they made a 750 Alpina sedan.

So those are good.

All right.

So my choices were a Z eight for the weekend.

Okay.

A Z eight Alpina for the weekend.

Mine are pretty, I don't have to try to sell them to you.

It's funny.

You guys go into car salesman mode when you're describing your choices.

By the way, I don't know if you guys are doing that consciously.

Yeah, it's natural.

I mean, I would want these cars like I truly, truly would want these cars.

Okay.

So that would be the weekend car and honestly, I want to take our three twenty

three and I want to go through it and do it needs a mild restoration.

And I'd love to make that into a daily driver.

So if I, frankly, if it was practical for me, I would do exactly that.

And then I'd have the Z eight on the weekend for fun cars.

And I think that would balance it out because you could have fun every day

with that thing back seats.

There's a trunk.

Trunks actually shockingly big.

Yeah, that would be even.

But you would.

So your daily would be a manual and your weekend would be an automatic.

Well, you got to remember, I got the wife factor and she doesn't

necessarily always want to drive manual.

So there's that.

All right.

Yeah.

No, but I mean, it had to have been an Alpina, but you're right.

Had I had the choice, I would have chosen the non Alpine of Z eight

that I want.

I think the Z eight personally, when I look at the Z eight, I mean,

guys come the F on.

How are these cars not more valuable?

Look at that.

That is nuts.

It doesn't make any sense.

Great looking car, but it just looks too much like a Z four or Z three.

Right.

I guess.

I don't think so.

Right.

I think it looks like a five or seven car in that colors.

Almost three hundred thousand dollars.

I don't think that's affordable.

No, definitely.

Here's the thing is you're not manual swapping those anymore.

Right.

But if you do a standard Z eight, Casey, what is that?

Two twenty five, something like that.

They're both right.

So that or a frickin new seven, eighteen, you know, spider RS, you choose.

I definitely wouldn't pick spider RS.

I picked the Z eight.

It's too loud.

Paul's laughing because he knows that I chose the spider.

But anyway, yeah, point is, is I bet personally, if we were to

basically place bets for in the bull market cards for next year.

Now, everyone's been saying that about the Z eight since it came out.

By the way, we've all been wrong every single year.

As far as that being a faster appreciator.

But geez, if you've never seen and I chose that color, that blue color,

it was an Alpina blue, obviously.

But if you've ever seen one not in silver and not in black,

shockingly gorgeous, truthfully beautiful cars.

Yes, I think the Alpina V eight, they call it technically the Alpina V eight

Roadster black on red, I think is the most desirable.

I think it's the highest value, which it does, which.

And actually I chose this, you know, this picture for you, Tim.

I mean, how good does that look with a hard top?

It's nuts, right?

It looks so good.

That might be the one I look after.

Was that on bring a trailer?

I think so, yeah.

Yeah, I think it's thousand miles.

So so if you guys driven one of these, I mean, it's just a standard.

I drove one on Laguna Seca.

The I was an instructor.

That's right.

And I do not think the owner was pleased with how I drove it

because he the owner had never driven it fast.

They cruised in it.

And I was driving six tenths, not my car, because I'm one

handing pointing out, here's where you got to turn in.

Here's where you're breaking zone is.

And I remember, let's talk about the car.

Let's talk about the car.

So, so Dave, you've driven one.

Mm hmm.

Okay.

Casey, if you drive, not in any spirited way, but yes.

Okay.

So, so I had a friend that this was back when those cars came out

who was a big BMW guy.

The car came in, he couldn't pick it up.

He asked me and his son to go pick it up.

And he told me that he wanted me to drive it in his son.

And the drive back was one of the best, most exhilarating drives

in any car I've ever had in my life.

The feeling of that car from everywhere from the way the steering

wheel felt the details of the little, you know, the old fashioned 1950

steering wheel, but you guys have all experienced this where you are

able to the touch points in the car.

One thing, it's when you start touching the things that normal

people wouldn't even give a shit about, then you realize something's

truly well made.

And that's a lot of what's been lost in mass production cars.

The Z8 felt special and still does.

And it's just, in my opinion, going to be one of the most desirable

cars that will transcend most cars from its era.

It's such an exhilarating drive and fast and fun.

It sounds good.

It breaks good.

Handles good.

It's more of a GT car than a sports car for sure.

Yeah, no, I agree.

It's it's a classic shape.

And I think, I mean, the value is already it's, it's got to be

the most expensive, you know, 20 year old BMW.

I mean, I think the only thing that has more value BMW is you're

getting into like the true 507, which is probably the only

seven figure BMW.

Yeah, it's a funny thing.

How many seven figure Porsches there are and how many seven

figure BMWs there are?

That's weird.

Seven is all I could think of.

Yeah.

Well, that or a new ZR one, Paul, you choose kidding.

I'd like to see her one.

I mean, like, look at it as an out.

No, no, no, he just said he likes the ZR one.

It was the one.

Oh, I thought you said the Corvette one.

The Corvette.

All right, Casey, that car, Paul, behind Casey, let's see.

Let's see if you close this out with the rumble that you said you

would. I don't know.

Paul's are really good.

So the I wanted to pick kind of two opposite ends of the

spectrum. So the A4S, which is the car that Paul mentioned

earlier, lightweight 2002 with a two liter motor with

195 horsepower.

To me, that feels like Carrera RS type experience.

I've never driven one.

I can't comment on it, but to me, it feels like an absolute

little ripper that's really light.

And I always thought 2002s are great looking cars.

I would have to pick it in some sort of wild color.

I saw one transact.

I think it was a Sotheby's auction and in a dark red,

which wasn't super attractive.

But I think it went for 60 or $70,000.

It wasn't tremendously expensive, but it looked like a good

example.

My buddies, my friends, Aaron and Minta that live in

Stuttgart, they have the ultimate.

They have the ultimate Alpina car.

It's a Alpina B8.

It's an E39 platform car.

And Aaron is a very good mechanic.

They bought this car.

It's got a zillion miles on it, and he loved it.

When I was there, it had an automatic transmission.

Now it's got a manual transmission in it.

Using all factory BMW parts, it's got the later model

steering wheel.

It also has upgraded up brakes that he bought from Alpina

Classic and a more modern infotainment system in it.

And when I was in it, that car was perfect.

I don't think there's anything better looking in the

five series range, no offense, Paul, than an E39.

I think it's just peak BMW design in this Alpina

that my friends Aaron and Minta have is awesome.

No, I agree.

And I came so close to picking the E39 and I had all the

E39 Tourings until talking to our photographer, who is

an Alpina nut, and I had some off camera help.

Yeah.

And he said that's when he said you couldn't get one

from Alpina with the manual.

But as you know, BMWs have to be one of the easiest

manual swaps to go from a steptronic or an automatic.

Like even I'm not, I'll bet you the E38 is a fairly

straightforward manual swap because one of the cars

that I came this close to buying, I kicked myself.

Do you remember the the E39 540 M tech package?

Yeah, it was 03.

And the main reason was that was that was the only way

they can offer an automatic in a kind of an M5 automatic.

That was their closest.

They had the whole M5 body kit, the M parallels, but it

had a steptronic, but you could order as a manual.

They made a handful of 540 M tech wagons, but I think

almost all of them were automatics.

And I remember the six speed manual swap was pretty

straightforward and that, you know, for that, that's

the closest we would have an Alpina E39 wagon manual

stateside.

But in the end, I mean, look at all the cars we

chose outside of Tim's Z8.

Most of these cars are sub six figures, which is to

me, absolutely crazy.

And by the way, Casey, you almost won with your 2002.

You had one problem.

If you could see it in the one behind me, you need flares.

The Alpina kind of bulgy flares are of that era are so cool.

So you see it on this, this 67 1600.

They just got these little bulges on them, which looks

so cool and you don't see a lot of you had that car

at your shop.

Basically, I seem to, I remember that car, like

seeing it in IRL.

And, and guess what?

The engine of that car is now in my 1600.

My 1600 is the first 1600 delivered the U.S.

And they used it on a photo shoot interview with

with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

He did sign the engine bay.

I spent a whole day with him.

He drove it.

But this motor came out of this car.

And, you know, sadly, Nick, when he had cancer

and he passed away from cancer with that last year,

when he knew he was going to pass away, he built

a crazy whammy motor for the car, took this motor out.

And then when he passed away, the sun, we sold everything,

but the sun kept this car.

And this was his last drive.

It was Target, California in April, and he passed away

a couple of months later.

But the sun didn't want the motor.

I have the original numbers matching engine to our 1600

that was seized.

And this was a done built motor.

So I dropped it in.

It's a little part of Nick that goes in my motor.

You know, it's a 2000 CS block.

Sadly, it was built to about a hundred and thirty five

horsepower dual side draft wevers.

I've detuned it back to a six volt single solex.

Probably now a hundred horsepower.

Why did you do that?

Because it was a collectible first one.

And my goal was it's all set up to rebuild the other motor

and drop it in.

And the sad thing is when we did that, this motor is a race motor.

So it's got piston slap under when it's cold.

It if you've driven a stock 1600, especially with

they've got that three seventy three or four ten diff.

I can't remember which one it is.

They're really fun around town cars.

They're super zippy.

They don't have a lot of RPM.

In fact, RPM is such a non issue

that I didn't even get a tack with my car.

I got a clock, no tachometer, wasn't even an option.

But I kind of miss that 1600 stock

torquey, such a silky smooth motor.

And this motor is just too racy.

Let's let's get to listener questions.

There's a lot of listener questions really quick.

Who won? Who won?

I think Paul, I think you did, Paul.

I know I did.

Yeah, I think Paul won.

OK, I did like you open your garage door

and you see these two cars right here.

We'll just do better both at speed.

Come on, you tell me they're from the perp.

They're from the perfect era.

Yeah, because you snuck that damn E30 in.

So yeah, unfortunately, you win again.

So annoying.

You know, did you guys see this on bat?

I'm listeners only.

I'm putting up a picture of a ninety four ninety three

nine sixty four speedster.

It's the ones with the all red red wheels

and that, you know, has the RS seats and not the whole thing.

So that car sold, you know, maybe two years ago for 200 grand

I'll probably sell for the same price.

Now, if you guys had to choose between that car

and a non Alpina Z eight, because they're basically the same money,

which would you choose and why?

Oh, Speedster all day long.

Casey, I mean it.

Nine sixty four cabs are a bit wobbly.

Z eight aren't I'd probably I'd probably go for the Z eight.

But have you have you driven a nine six four speedster?

I've not.

I've driven a bunch of three to speedsters, but never a nine sixty four.

See, I think the ninety the nine six four speedster is truly

the reincarnation of what the original speedster was about,

which was lightweight, narrow body, fun, canyon car.

Yes, they'll have a little bit of cowl shake,

but nowhere near as bad as like a road, American roadster.

I don't want to promote.

I don't want to promote this car too much because it's on bat and because.

Well, the red wheels are ugly and it's red.

Oh, dude, it's perfect.

It's perfect. Oh, y'all, I see the way it comes.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much, Tim.

Just to make you tires.

Just but these cars, you know, nine six four speedsters,

they look at them and they've just a good high level driver

has hovered around the one fifty mark for a long time, one seventy five,

except for a little miles.

But like yesterday, there was a I think it was a forty five

thousand mile black one, nothing special.

I saw it and it went for you saw it.

And I was like, what happened to that car?

Because it went for one ninety.

I can't. Right.

Well, this this.

So again, going back to what might be bull market cars,

those cars probably because the new nine ninety two point two speedster

is going to come out and our car or our nine ninety one point two speedster.

Those cars are now mid four hundred cars.

I bet you I shouldn't be saying this because I actually think I love this car.

I might bet on it.

But long story short, I bet you those cars have some good legs

and then another potential free Porsche where the car's

appreciation would cover the maintenance and upkeep.

Of course, you guys would agree.

You guys sell those types of things.

All right, let's get let's get to listener questions and comments.

And we'll wrap up today's show.

And there were a lot and listen, guys, if you want to message us

when you get the newsletter, if you just hit reply, I get all of those.

And I respond to everything you can message us with ideas

and questions and what not over on Instagram.

However you communicate, we read everything.

When the messages come to me, I share it with these guys on WhatsApp.

And we really do sincerely appreciate the feedback.

Sometimes it's just feedback.

Love the show and more of this less of that.

And that's wonderful.

And sometimes you have specific questions.

Hopefully, you gentlemen are organized with the questions

that they've been posting on WhatsApp.

Let's go.

Paul, do you have something at the ready?

No, I'm sorry.

I know we had some questions.

I couldn't find where they were because I got buried in the DMs

or were they in our list.

So I couldn't find it.

I was looking for them.

Well, I'll take this one that it was more of a comment

than a question per se, but it sort of does open up a potential

topic for the future.

Paul sent this out from one of his listeners.

Right.

Yes, friends.

So this was this one is sitting, by the way,

I meant to tell you, I just listened to the latest podcast

and full throttle talk.

You should write an article about your buying, selling methods,

not using bring a trailer.

Bring a trailer only benefits one person, the seller.

Good or bad, that car is now forever tagged for when

the new buyer goes to sell it.

So definitely a good potential topic.

We've touched on it in the past as well.

But I know what stance you guys are going to take

based on our chats, but let me get the flip side

so we can balance it out.

Okay.

At the end of the day, yes, you're right.

The car essentially is going to have its history forever

known because anyone can just Google the VIN number

and bring a trailer gives preference to cars

that have successfully sold on bring a trailer before.

So, you know, you want to put your bring a trailer,

bought car back for sale, chances are bring a trailer,

we'll let you put it for sale again.

They're actually becoming very selective as Casey,

you know, but long story short, I don't think,

I think the days of being able to find

bargains unless somebody is willingly,

knowingly selling for wholesale have been over

since probably the early to mid 2000s.

That's my opinion.

And so you got to pay retail and by the nicest car

you can find unless somebody is knowingly selling wholesale.

So I'll tee it off with that.

Go ahead.

All coming.

Yeah. No, I think that's the case.

I mean, people always come up to me.

I love when they reach out and they say,

Hey, if you find a 993 at a really good price,

will you let me know?

And it's like asking a realtor to find something for.

No, you know, first of all, the problem is most sellers

out there and Dave can attest to this.

And Casey also, they see an anchor price they like

and they create this own, you know,

imaginary algorithm that makes their car worth more

than it is.

So instead of me, you know, telling them,

Hey, your car is worth a lot more,

which happens like maybe 2% of the time.

I have to explain to them.

No, this is why the buyer for this car paid this

and the buyer won't pay that for yours.

And going back to the listener question,

I mean, I love Dave's quick response internally,

which was like, we're not gonna give up the secret sauce.

I mean,

But what is the secret, there is no secret sauce.

There's no secret sauce that the secret sauce is time.

You do it long enough.

You build a reputation where good cars find you

and you find good seller.

But that's the way it works in any sales, right?

Any sales.

And like, but in real estate there,

if you wanted to, you could wholesale your house.

They're all cash offer type people.

There's Zillow was, you know, there's all these,

you know, companies, most of which failed,

which were essentially buying houses back 20% off

retail, whatever.

Cause there'll always be people

that want a fast sale, no hassle.

And because when selling anything,

and the reason that we use,

I frankly never sold my cars myself.

I always have one of you guys do it.

The reason is, is because I don't want to deal

with the customer, you know?

I don't want to deal with all the bullshit

that goes along with the transaction.

And that's worth 10% to me.

Well, and maybe I just don't even want to wait around.

So I might sell the car for 15% off

and let you guys take the risk and, you know,

make the margin.

So, I mean, at the end of the day,

if you don't have a database of past customers

who know, love and trust you,

you're not going to get offered good deals.

I just don't think it's happening anymore.

I mean, you're good.

The good deal is you buy and get a good car.

Would you say there are different ways

to go about buying and selling cars, obviously,

beyond bring a trailer?

And, but the implication behind the question

or the comment was somehow

that bring a trailer is ruining the market

because the prices are going up

and the benefit is only to the buyer versus,

or excuse me, to the seller versus the buyer.

I think it's definitely changed

the way people are willing to buy cars,

sight unseen just based on 200 photos and so on

on a collector car.

And it's obviously expanded the audience,

which is the whole key to it.

Meaning you've got the entire US and Europe

and everywhere else around the world

that you've got eyes on this thing.

So, but I do think that there are different ways.

I think I'm going to have some little quickie thing.

It's all about the stuff we've talked about in the past.

In the newsletter, I think I posted something up

where we're going to do some, you know,

how to shoot a car to get the car shot properly

if you're trying to sell it yourself.

And there are definitely people that want to do that.

And those are the guys that are, you know,

that they won't get necessarily maximum money

for their cars, but they'll make a little bit more perhaps.

And that's all fine.

I mean, there's something for everybody in this.

I don't think bring a trailer is the enemy at all.

I just think it opens up the audience

and it's a great repository to look at all these cars.

It's the enemy if you are somebody that made a living

from essentially taking advantage of people

back in the auto trader days before the internet

where you know what the national market was

and the local yokel didn't know

and you knew cars were worth more than California

and you could buy it

and you could basically advertise in California

and make a fat margin on it

that wasn't available locally.

Those days are over.

Yep, they're over.

Yeah.

I evolved my business to assisting people

with selling cars on that platform

because I worked at a dealership

where it was my job to buy a car

for the least amount of money possible

and sell it for the most amount of money.

And I changed evolving out of the dealership

to giving people what I believe is the highest amount

that they can get for their car,

which in a lot of cases is on bring a trailer

and then I get paid a commission based on that

because I think it's a more reasonable

and straightforward process

where the market dictates the value of the vehicle

and I make sure that the car is properly represented

rather than just stealing it from them.

And that to me feels good.

And I know that Paul does mostly consignments

if I'm not mistaken, Paul.

100%.

Yep.

And I know that Dave's a different animal

because Dave restores cars and then sells them.

So that's a different animal entirely

versus me buying a Macan for X

and then selling it for X plus 15%.

Well, what you're doing is you're doing the same thing.

You're just making your margins transparent.

Exactly.

Yeah, which does seem more fair.

How about that?

And by the way, Tim, I sit here and hear this from both.

I hear people tell me,

oh, if you're a buyer on bring a trailer,

the prices are just too high.

You can't really get what that listener mentioned.

And then I hear from the seller,

well, I would never do bring a trailer.

I mean, I looked at a 76, 9, 11 yesterday.

I know what it will do on bring a trailer.

And his whole comment was,

ooh, this won't bring enough money on bring a trailer.

Which means is it's got enough question marks

that it will maybe make it polarizing

and he's not wrong.

But the funny thing is the grass is greener.

They're all saying the same thing, but to Dave's point,

this is the platform we have.

It's obviously successful.

There's multiple companies that do it,

cars and bids, car market, et cetera.

And how else are you gonna connect?

I mean, when was the last time you went to AutoTrader

or eBay to research a car?

Well, but let's drill down a little bit more.

You guys have, and we won't mention names

because you guys are frickin' hilarious

the shit you guys say on our What's That page.

You both, all three of you have people

you will not have as customers.

You just, you choose your customers

because the people are known to be,

let's just say a little bit on the spectromy.

They're a little spectromy

with their expectations, right?

And the truth is that that's the power

that you guys have.

The reason I had you guys, frankly,

I wanted you guys on the show

is because you have a database of customers

that know, love and trust you.

And that's true with any salesperson.

If you sell Jets, if you sell collector watches,

if you sell Hummels, it doesn't matter.

You're gonna have a customer base

and you're gonna primarily sell that customer base.

And the best thing you can do is

if you want an advantage in the marketplace,

you're looking for something weird,

you gotta befriend these clowns

and basically hopefully they're gonna

toss you something that's not listed yet.

And then there you go.

Let's get to the next question, Paul.

This one I think was sent directly to you.

Yeah, it was sent to me from a long-time listener,

Ray O'Mara.

I can't remember which part of the country Ray's in.

He goes, I'm a listener to the Full Throttle Talk podcast.

Basically from the beginning, thank you, Ray.

While I may not be representative of the people

who buy the cars that you guys generally talk about,

I really enjoy what you guys are doing.

My wallet and garage space don't stretch

to 911 GT through RS.

You've kept it interesting though throughout

and I really appreciate that.

I never feel like I've wasted time

after listening to you guys.

And he goes on to talk about all the different cars

he's had and he's indicative of a lot of Porsche owners.

He's had, you know, 911 since 2000 for the last 25 years

but kind of one at a time, an 82 SC, 84 Crera, a 993,

which ironically he says don't judge cars.

You're skipping the best part, bro.

I've owned a 911 since your 2000 emphasis on A.

I'm a one car guy, career in the Air Force,

flying fighters, so named no tears, please.

And the limit of grudge.

So the point was, is he's a fighter pilot.

Yeah, he's a fighter pilot, which, you know,

go back to top gun, you know, what do they drive?

Speedster or 911?

Yeah, well, those are our people.

So thank you, Ray, for that really nice message.

And I posted one from Tracy Ross.

I think this one, any one of you guys can read it.

This one is a good topic.

Maybe we close out today for that one.

I can read it.

Hey, Tim, great podcast.

I think I did share this one.

You guys knocked it out, knocked it out of the park.

A few things, I'm sorry, my eyes are blitzing.

A few things to suggest.

How about a segment on ADMs?

They are still wicked high and tough demand cars.

I think your listeners would enjoy a topic

if you have not covered it before, which we haven't.

Stickers, which I thought was funny.

I got my full throttle talk sticker a week or so ago

and it's pretty small.

Something about 30 or 40% bigger

would be more meaningful.

I'm happy to pay for it.

And another topic might be where Porsche has landed,

assuming they have with what they are planning

to electrify and turn to hybrids and focus on ice.

We did talk about that today.

Thank you for that motivation, TR.

Keep up the great work.

It's my favorite podcast other than Missed Apex,

which I've never listened to, have you guys?

I haven't either, Casey.

So maybe Tracy will be our first person

to have a full throttle talk wrapped vehicle.

Yeah, but let's talk about ADMs, his specific question.

So you guys...

It's client demand.

It'll always be there.

That's my opinion too, honestly.

I don't think they're evil.

I think it's just what the market is willing to...

The question is, why does the manufacturer

leave the meat on the bone like that?

That's the question.

Well, which is what Porsche is trying to pick up the slack.

I don't think the manufacturer likes the meat on the bone.

So I think that's part of also why the prices

are going up.

They're like, well, let's see how much the demand

will push for it.

It's certainly they're right.

I don't think that...

I mean, Casey, you might know this,

but does Porsche really understand the US dealer network,

which they have to basically stick to?

Do they like the fact that we're doing that?

Dealers do that?

No, they don't at all.

And actually they get penalized.

They get...

Interesting.

If Porsche finds out that dealerships are selling...

Well, at least from two years ago

when I was with the brand,

if Porsche finds out that a dealership

is selling cars with markup on them,

they will actually reduce the amount of pull vehicles

that are available to the dealership.

That's at the discretion of pull,

meaning there's a pull of vehicles

and that regional managers can then hand those cars out

to good performing dealerships,

people that hit specific KPIs and those sorts of things.

A big part of the reason that I left Porsche

is because dealerships...

Sorry, why I left working at a Porsche dealership

is because there was a lot of motivation

rather than I'm a long-term relationship guy.

I'm not a short-term opportunism guy

and that's really what the business

was changing to over COVID.

I think ADM suck.

During my tenure,

there were a few cars that did receive them.

They were all significantly below market value

and it was not necessarily

because of a decision that I made.

There were maybe a couple,

but the huge, egregious ones are very disgusting

and I'm glad that Dave was able to get his car correctly.

But my goal and on my way out,

it was my goal to make sure

that a couple of my really good customers

got GT3 RSs at MSRP.

What's worse?

And thankfully all that happened.

What's worse,

what Ferrari used to leave meat on the bone

for the buyer to make money

and they were able to essentially create long-term

relationships where people would buy cars

that even if they didn't necessarily want

those types of cars.

A Portofino and a Lusso

and you get a piece of type deal.

But now all the cars, essentially,

Ferraris are depreciating

and they're depreciating a shit ton.

And I mean, not as a, you know,

compared to the comps, they're depreciating like 20%,

something like that.

But it's an enormous amount of money

if you just look at the actual dollar amount.

So Ferrari is exchanging,

they fully priced their cars,

they're making all the profit,

leaving nothing for the consumer,

but now they're having to face down depreciation.

So what ultimately will be the,

where will Ferrari suffer more

having made less profit,

had they left money on the table for the buyer

or for the consumer

or from the tarnish of having a brand

that now is going to be known as a depreciator.

And that's the same problem that Porsche is gonna have.

Do you guys understand?

Yeah, but I mean,

Porsche up until recently was kind of doing that.

They, you know, look back in the 997,

even 991 era, you know,

GT3, I would say 991.2,

maybe spawned by the 911 R

was the beginning of these GT products having future value.

Before that, you buy a GT3 RS,

it stayed the same price in 997.2

and it would then start to lower

and then it would come up when it got old enough.

And I think Porsche for the first time

is experiencing this,

which I think that's why the manufacturer

is trying to fill the gap

and raise the prices so much.

But it may backfire.

I just don't see GT cars, you know, the new GT3.

Can you imagine going into the dealer

for the next GT3 product

and paying sticker, let alone under sticker?

You know, everyone's so excited to be a sticker.

I discounted a four liter $400.

I mean, it depends on where the world is at that point.

I mean, I remember selling like,

I remember selling a Gali fall of 19.

I remember selling 992 convertibles

and coupes for invoice.

I mean, it was a different time.

This was 2019, Casey.

19, yeah, right before COVID.

So, and if you look at it now,

I mean, the only car that's doing well

for Porsche and profitability at a dealer level

is a 911.

Everything else is not good.

I mean, they're invoice, they're slightly above invoice.

They're doing their best to make deals.

People, I mean, the brand is in an interesting

transitionary period right now

and the GT product is such a small amount

of the actual cars that they sell.

You know, I mean, I don't wanna side

for somebody charging ADM.

But if you discount everything, right?

It's a suggested retail price.

If you're discounting everything

other than GT product,

as a business, you have to make money somewhere.

I don't necessarily agree with it,

but that is the way that it's posed.

Well, so I get emails from a couple guys

that they're essentially professional.

I don't know if you wanna call ADM peddlers.

You know, they're not dealers.

They're just, I don't even know

how they get their cars.

Brokers, yeah.

I don't know how they get their relationships,

but I think I send all of them to you guys.

And it basically all the ADMs off anything

other than the cars you'd expect, the GT cars are gone.

So you can get any new 911 right now for basically retail.

So.

I mean, how much below MSRP is a Macan EV?

I mean, those things aren't moving.

All of it.

And then there's probably a great lease.

I mean, there's all they can do.

I mean, like I said, I've not been with the brand

and I don't, I mean, honestly,

I talk to my good buddy that does work

for Porsche all the time,

but, you know, we don't talk about bad business stuff.

So I don't really have the insight.

And I don't believe I'd ever be able to have someone

like that talk about it openly on a podcast

just because of those sorts of things.

But, you know, it's a tough time right now

in vehicle sales.

So.

Yeah.

Unless it's a, you know, a 993

that my client really wants to buy from Paul.

So I need Paul's other guys to get out of the way.

No, my guy is willing to pay what Paul asks.

He's just got people in front of him.

Yeah.

Oh, I got it.

Well, so that is the podcast.

I think we got through most of the major questions

and comments.

Listen, we love your continued support.

Thank you.

This is going to end season one for 4th Rattle Talk.

We started, Paul and I started this in January.

I don't even know how many shows ago,

but quite a few.

We've been doing it very religiously every week.

And it's been an incredible, I think for me personally,

it's been an incredible experiment

that's worked into something beyond

what I ever expected it to be.

It's been my pleasure and my honor

to have these guys as our hosts.

We're gearing up for season two.

We would love your comments and your feedback.

We're going to keep this a very niche podcast.

We're not going to try to appeal to everyone

because frankly, we're not really interested

in much anything else other than what we already talk about.

But if you do have any suggestions

on what we could do to make it better,

we're probably going to be bringing on more guests.

So if you'd like to be a guest

and we strongly encourage you

to obviously subscribe to the newsletter.

And if you've got any content you'd like to have featured

on the newsletter, send it over.

That would be fantastic.

And we're publishing a lot of other people's articles.

We've got a whole bunch of articles

that were originally published in S's magazine

that we're going to be publishing.

Anything and everything you've got

that you think will be appealing to our community,

I strongly encourage you to submit it

and chances are 99% of the time,

maybe a little edit here and there,

but we're going to use it.

So guys, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays,

Happy Hanukkah, Kwanza, whatever you celebrate.

And I'll see you guys in the new year.

Great, thanks.

Thanks, guys.

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