Behind the Scenes at the Hemi Hideout and Exploring the World of Kit Cars
In Wheel Time Podcast: Your Go-To Automotive Talk Show
Behind the Scenes at the Hemi Hideout and Exploring the World of Kit Cars
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Welcome to another in wheel time podcast, the 30 minute mini version of the in wheel time car show that airs live every Saturday morning 8 to 11 am, central From the fabulous hemi hideout in brookshire, texas.
It is the in wheel time car talk show coming up for guests from the hideout Along with folks from the car clubs attending today's cruise in.
Jeff has a segment on top five kit cars Under 26k.
Yep, I like that.
I'm looking forward to that.
Did one.
Yeah, I've always wanted.
I've always wanted to build a kit car.
Not that I have time or knowledge to do it, but I figured if there's a way to screw it up, show me a blueprint.
And I got it done.
So there's the main thing.
Come there's people who donate their C5 to kit cars.
Well, we're not doing that, because all that body work kind of comes off pretty, yeah Now.
Well, we're not doing that.
See, you get that out of your mind.
Conrad has the racing calendar in the car clinic and later we got the stories making automotive news headlines this week.
Just ahead on this hour of the in wheel time Car talk show, howdy, along with Mike out of this world bars King Conrad DeLong.
We always need more, jeff Zekin.
We're sitting next to him, as it should be, is David Ainsley, our chief engineer and bottle washer, and I'm Don Armstrong, fresh out of the Huntsville State Penitentiary.
We leave it at that up there huh, we got a fan club up there one at any rate so.
People are rolling in and he's only gonna be a fan for five to eleven Years five to eleven years.
That's it.
So, mr Barnes, I see that we have a guest down here.
No, give me a so-so-so-so.
So don't give me that my.
Oh no, give me the so-so my wife has always told me that behind every great man there's a woman.
So we have now the woman behind the him.
He hide out.
And John, now, this is not his wife, this is the boss, this is miss Shelley.
No, she, she's, she's the second boss.
Well, the first one is Diane Hovis, right?
Yes and I think that you would agree with that.
Oh, absolutely 100% move that microphone a little bit closer to your mouth.
Sorry.
First time.
That's all right, little closer, come on, come on.
So when I saw you, or when he walked in, that when I walked in from doing all this stuff this morning, you said I'm sorry, I've been trying to email all of these people that are coming here.
The highway department has changed the exit for us to get here.
Yes, their people did not contact my people.
They didn't tell me they were changing the X the highway department didn't tell you.
Imagine that right date of Texas, my gosh.
Oh, it's always a challenge getting 400 people to the him he hide out when they start changing.
The exit.
Yeah, you can't get there from here anymore, because because the exit was Peach Ridge Road.
Well, they're toward they tore that out and now they've laid new concrete, but you can't get to the concrete that they just laid because the part of the new concrete is not attached to the old Concrete off the highway.
Yes, it's a big jacked-up mess.
So when you leave here today, everybody take one of the barriers home with them.
Yeah, we'll drag it down the street.
So I know that you.
You were shaking.
You were so worried about everybody getting here.
Well, I don't think that they're here yet.
You're probably going around in circles out on the freeway.
Yeah, not everyone's here yet, but the good news is, technically the event didn't start, or I Advertised it starting at 11 and it's 11.03
now.
It is 11.03
.
We have a good amount of people here, absolutely do.
Yeah, yeah that's right on the money.
Yes.
Well, maybe a couple seconds off, but it's close and some of the people have already made it to Weimer.
They just have to turn around and come back.
Right, come back, but why am I?
it's exit 732.
Go north To the next light and make a right, and well as of this morning.
It's 733.
Never mind too early this morning now that exit's gone.
That's correct.
You've messed it up again.
Well, they'll find it.
Yeah, eventually.
Yeah, and I will say this Leslie's ways Worked great and it told us down here you turn, come back around, is it Donagall Don again?
Donagall Don again road that takes you over the top of the freeway to get kind of out of the mess?
right.
So, it'll be fine.
It'll be fine, I know it'll work out, yeah, yeah.
So it'll be worth the trip when you get here.
Yes, it is place.
How long does it take you to set up for stuff like this days?
well, this is an easy event because Catering is outside.
There's a food truck here, so we don't have to actually set up a whole lot inside, other than a few tables and chairs for people to sit at if they need to sit down.
Take a break from looking around.
So this was easy.
Yes.
So are you the one that says okay, john, well, we need to move this, this, this, this car out, because I need, I need.
You're the one that says oh, absolutely.
I'm in charge of the Hemi hideout.
I have the best job in the world.
Yeah, I'm feeling yeah, yeah, yeah I loved helping decorate it and he's still collecting, so I'm still here and because I don't decorate for him full time, to make it a full-time job, I host tours of the Hemi hideout by reservation on a Monday through Friday.
They just call and and I charge for the tour.
It's $10 cash per person, no one under the age of 12.
But the cool thing about the money is he matches it and lets me donate 100, 100% of it to local charities.
So it goes a long way in our community.
That's good.
Did you know that?
I did know that.
I knew it, matt.
He gave that it went to charity, but I did not know realize that he matched it.
Yes, it's really not a charge to come to the show.
It's a donation to come to the Hemi hideout that John serves the rest of his Community with those donations.
Yes, technically it's a donation, but if, but, if I call that to people, they some don't want to make the donation, so I can't.
somebody somebody's always got a drive on, I mean if you're interested in this place and coming here.
I find that hard to believe that 10 bucks is not going to kill anybody yeah and it's it's well worth the money, because if you're, if you're into automobile collections, you want to see and signage and want to see probably what's one of the best man caves in the country.
This is John's man cave right, um, I think it's very similar to a museum because all of this stuff is from the past, from you know.
It's all a part of history and I've paid more money than ten dollars to get into a museum.
Oh, absolutely, and it's all Absolutely museum quality 100 and but there's a sign at the door that says this is not a museum.
Everything is for sale.
Well, that's a joke.
His wife had that main, so John was on a trip and he was Hunting for this stuff for a couple weeks he was gone.
Well he, she had Bill Sight's Paint, that sign the real sign is on behind that, and so it's a joke, like everything's somebody just bought the sign.
You know, but that's what us car guys do.
We do stupid things like that.
What do you?
What are you eating over there?
Something from the food truck they're feeding David over here clutch city clockers.
Cluckers a food truck out there Wow.
It's very nice.
Okay, I'm David's the only one getting, because he's, he's, david.
Yeah.
Then he's drinking a squirt, so how many people do you think a year Come out and visit him?
He hide out.
Have you ever counted?
Oh no, I haven't counted, but this week alone.
Let's see.
On Wednesday I had a hundred and seventy people.
Wow, Thursday I had eight people, Friday I had 120 and then today I'm expecting a little over 400.
So quite a few come through in a week alone.
I'm actually seven hundred this week.
You actually get bus tours.
Yes, the city of Houston has the different precinct Allow groups, senior citizens groups, to utilize their buses and they can go a certain distance out of Houston.
For day trips and because we're indoors mostly, this is a popular Stop stop for senior citizens because they remember a lot of this stuff.
They grew up with these brands that they see you be careful, young lady, about what you say about that.
So long she's looking at you but it's really opened where you know a wheelchair can get around in here pretty good and and you know crutches or or the walkers you know so right, and certainly during the week when we host the tours, it's all open.
We don't have the tables and chairs, so it's really a handicap accessible if they are in a wheelchair.
Yeah, yeah, and I could see where People you know my parents would be one of them that we come in here and say oh yeah, I remember that, I remember this.
I remember this.
There's, there's also.
There's also Events that you host in here.
You do weddings and stuff.
I didn't bring it up.
I didn't bring it up, leave it.
I didn't start that, you just need to let it go.
You have other functions You've had parties anniversary parties and things right.
It's very popular with corporate companies because they have their yearly events and Y'all booked up for Christmas, oh, 100%.
No, I can I can see why you.
How long ago did you book up for Christmas?
in March really.
March.
Christmas is over.
Let's book next year.
So that's the way to do it.
When you do that, you book it like every day.
There's something in here toward Christmas.
I might have Two days other than Christmas, even Christmas Day that isn't booked but it's definitely during the week, all my weekends, are booked solid.
Well, you want a weekend, you have to book, probably in February.
When at Christmas, for the Christmas for December.
You know odd, you think of odd.
I do odd things when it comes to this place.
John, you and this morning I was thinking Well, it's a little bit too early to have your fabulous Christmas tree up.
Do you change the Christmas tree decorations every year?
I?
Add to it, but I use the traditional colors, the same the red, green, silver.
Yeah, silver works well in here because of all the chrome.
Yeah from the realms of the cars and all the neon, Because it reflects all the neon you know, there's an interesting story that I heard and that was that when this place was being built, that you Said absolutely not, you cannot have a restroom like that for a place like this, and that you had him Redesign the restroom facilities in here.
Well, he wanted one restroom for men and women to share, yeah, and a 21,000 square foot building.
No, we needed more restrooms and we needed a woman's restroom.
So there's a women's restroom, there's a men's, and we even have one in the office now.
Okay, good, that's good to know.
Well, I thought that that was an interesting thing that you started with John long before John and Diane long before the hideout was built.
Right, I'm their interior decorator.
So when they wanted to remodel their home, they contacted me because we are very close friends and family, we consider each other family.
So they remodeled their home and then I helped them remodel another building on the property and then John showed me the plans of the him you hide out and I was like I don't know, I'm residential, I don't do that.
He says it's my garage, it's right next to my house and I want you to.
Yes, 22,000 square foot garage with a diner.
Yes, it grew, the project grew no doubt.
Yes, when he wanted a cupula.
Well then, now it's over five stories tall.
Yeah, the center of the building.
Yeah, so it didn't.
It didn't start off that tall.
No so when John gets new signage, do you have a say in placement of the new signage?
I had a lot of say in placement of the signs at the beginning.
But now I'll come in and he's hanging signs where he wants them and I'm like wait a minute, you don't need me anymore.
No, that's just kidding, but um, he has a really big bulldog from the Matt truck bulldog.
Oh yeah, he was telling us that we're gonna have to find a place for yes, and so I've already.
I have helped pick that spot out and we're gonna rearrange some other signs, so I do have some say still yeah, that's good, but mainly your main focus now is coordinating all of the stuff that goes on in here.
I yes, that's more of the full time job.
But when he needs display cabinets redone or redecorated, that I do that too.
But my main job is hosting tours and then renting out the Hemi hideout for private parties.
Yeah, keep it operating.
Yes, and keep it clean Clean.
Do you have a cleaning crew that comes in to help you?
I do.
I do.
Okay, I was going to say, yeah, it's me, no, it's not.
Hey, but if I see a spill or something needs to be clean, I'll be the first one to grab the broom For sure.
And what is Paula's duty here?
Paula has worked for John for a long time.
She pays the bills, helps with the taxes.
You know she does all the stuff he does.
All the bookie administration.
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
Well it's.
You know, it's an interesting family and I said this early on.
There's a group of helpers, friends, that all have the Hemi Hideout badge on, and it's a selected group of people that come out here and volunteer their time and they're part of the family and I don't think that this place would be what it is if it weren't for them.
Absolutely.
I couldn't.
I could not host tours during the week without them.
I can't have 170 people in here and host them by myself, and so the volunteers here mean the world to me because they do it for free.
They volunteer their time and they come day after day and help me.
And they're knowledgeable about what's here Right, knowledgeable about some of the signage, about the cars and stuff, so they can share that information as opposed to going to a museum where you just kind of walk around and look at it.
Right.
There's somebody here and my wife and daughter had come out here with a couple of their friends from California about a year ago and they said, yeah, it was wonderful because there were people who would tell you what you were looking at.
It wasn't just you're wandering around going.
Oh my gosh.
Exactly.
That's why the sign says it's not a museum.
Yeah, you know what Just was looking up at my favorite sign in here it has been don't get me wrong, I think they're all absolutely stunningly beautiful and really nice, but the one that I've loved since the first time I came out here was the Dodge sign in the box.
Yes, that sign is from the late 1930s and it's still in the original crate.
We just took off some of the wood pieces and they're fine.
So you could see it.
To plug it in.
To plug it in.
Yeah.
And you can see it better.
There's just something special about that sign that attracts me.
I can't tell you what it is, I think the fact that it's never been out of the box.
Right, still in the original crate.
Now, something you may not have seen yet we have a little girls stroller toy.
I saw that over there In the original crate.
Now, you know, some little girl would have loved it played with that, but it's never been taken out of the crate.
I like it.
Where is it?
It's on top of the drink cooler over there, yeah.
Towards the restroom.
Yeah, okay, I want to take another look at it.
I've noticed John's also added a couple of pedal cars.
Yes, I don't know if it's a Rolls Royce pedal car or whatever it is over there by the restroom.
That's the elite of pedal cars that is a dual pedal car.
What a cool piece that is.
I like the bicycle built for four right up there.
A lot of people love that.
It stands out so that they built that.
Oh yeah, that's the in wheel, time machine, bicycle.
Oh God.
Yeah.
That's what we need to do.
Don Steering, you and I and Mike Petaling.
Yeah, what's this?
You and I.
Hey, I'll be up front and then we'll have David on the handlebars.
Oh, okay.
Oh, oh, you need a little bell.
Ding ding, ding, ding ding.
Yeah, kind of like an additional three stooches plus one.
So do you have a favorite sign or a favorite story about a sign here?
I am not so much a sign.
I love there's a roller organ back in where we keep the minerals and geodes, and I love the roller organ.
We'll have to take a look at that, yeah.
It sounds like an organ but it's on a roller and they're handmade and I was told it was invented in the late 1800s.
Ah, I got you.
It's a player organ.
Yes, yeah.
Coin operated horseback there too that Kathy rode.
Last time she was here she was on there.
Oh goodness yeah.
Well, it's great to have you on the show with us.
Thank you so much for everything you do.
We love you and we appreciate everything.
So thank you, love you guys, thank you All right, shelly Gates, the famous and fabulous.
All right.
The end wheel time race card is sponsored by Texas Nostalgia Modified Production.
Sergio Wachs.
Last weekend, erica not only won the Texas Drag Race at NS, she also took the lead in the championship by about 40 points.
They're off this weekend and they're in Las Vegas next weekend.
Right so.
I recorded it.
Actually, this will be her text message.
This can be her sixth.
World Championship and it's a pro stock World Championship.
So yeah, they're in Las Vegas October 26th through the 29th and then the final is at Pomona November 9th through the 12th.
Nascar this weekend's in Homestead, next weekend is in Martinsville and then their finale is November 5th in Phoenix.
Formula one is in Circuit of the Americas in.
Austin today or in tomorrow.
They're in Mexico City on the 29th, brazil on November 5th, las Vegas on November 19th.
So you know, you think about it.
Houston has had huge racing events over the last month of October, with NHRA coming to town, nascar was in town, now Formula 1's in town.
You know, texas is not Houston, but Texas has become quite a spot for motorsports in worldwide motorsports, so pretty cool.
Yeah.
And then IMSA finished their series and IndyCar has finished their series.
Jeff had some news when I sat down earlier.
Jeff, you want to share that?
about Formula 1?
Yeah, the Renault is not the engine builder for Andretti at this point, because they didn't put the paperwork through in time.
There was a lot of questions about it.
So the FIA said, okay, you got two choices you got Alpine or you've got Honda.
Neither of them want to be in it.
Mclaren's kind of kicking up their heels, kind of being angry about it.
So over time they're gonna pick either an Alpine or Honda, and then General Motors Cadillac will build their own F1 motor.
You know what you gotta remember?
It's not just motor, it's the whole power train because they have to have the electric drive component.
Well, they call it the motor, they just include it as an engine, motors yeah so it's all inclusive in that It'd be interesting to see how that works.
I'm in.
Okay, Jeff has a feature top five kit cars under 26k.
Now I had to think about this.
Jeff sends this stuff out.
This is what I'm gonna do this week, and the first kit car that came to mind that I think would be really cool laugh at me, if you will is, instead of a Volkswagen motor, a Corvair motor, and you could probably put it on a Corvair frame for a Myers-Manks body.
Well to me, if I'm gonna make a kit car, I want to have it fun, open you know, myers-manks is in this grouping but it didn't make the top five.
It's more like a nine or it's in the grouping, but this first one is a factory five Daytona coupe which is 22,000 bucks.
This being a factory five kit doesn't mean quality is compromised.
It uses a custom welded chassis frame, handcrafted composite body.
That would fool most knowledgeable gear heads.
If anything, the biggest single expense in this vehicle would be the engine suitable for a range of small block motors, including a Ford Coyote.
Number four in this would be a Pilgrim 356 Speedster for 6,800.
Of course you will need to provide a donor motor which would be from a VW single axle.
It's a decent condition, would be suitable.
A Pilgrim kit uses the chassis and the original running gear to create a faithful recreation.
That would be a simpler, air-cooled Porsche motor replica.
On the first taste would be more of a motoring thing.
So 6,800 bucks, you could get a 356 Speedster.
The next one would be a Provo design Quntas.
This is 20 grand, without question.
This is a kit for the serious gear head who possesses some skill.
It doesn't mind getting their hands dirty, you know I have to tell you that the Quntas, it seems dated now?
Yeah, it is, and it's really not even a good looking car anymore, but you can still build one.
For those who want the Quntas without the effort, provo also offers a turnkey model, complete with the Audi V8 running gear.
It's a bit pricey here, at 20 grand, but then the deal, the real deal, will set you back about 400,000.
So that's that one for 20 grand.
The next one is a DF Goblin.
This is number two on the list for 10 grand.
The good thing about the Goblin is the custom tubular chassis has a pretty basic Humboldt cobalt or a Chevrolet cobalt mechanical parts.
Most flexible kits do.
Who knew it that a car could be so much fun for so little money, being at 10,000 bucks?
And the number one in our book is a DAX coupe.
This one's 26,000.
As an example, a 65 Shelby Cobra Daytona coupe recently sold for 1.49
million dollars.
This one from JK Sports Cars.
I have the opportunity to build one.
A replica, legendary sports car, a giveaway price of $26,000.
You can put a V8 from Ford, rover, chevy, among other manufacturers out there, so that would be the top five.
Yeah, and that buys the kit you still got to go buy suspension and wheels and tires and engine transmission.
No, no, no, no.
Those are all part of it, that 10 grand.
But you with the other ones, with the Volkswagen, get it by the donor tub, the pan, the pan by the donor.
That's the only thing that's not included.
So these you can get them for those prices.
Oh wow, you just have to have the time, the patience and space to do it really.
Yeah.
I want one.
I'd take one of those Shelby Daytona looking ones.
Yeah, cool, yeah, I want the Myers-Manks one because it's there's no doors, no, it's a one piece body that have shipped here, yep.
And instead I don't know what kind of motor.
I said Corvair motor because I know about them, but but what Volkswagen do just as well, I know Well create more power.
No, the Volkswagen would.
Yeah, you think, oh yeah, you have somebody's going to goose it up because stock, why wouldn't you?
You would want to, you'd want to have you know running on red line every time.
You know the way to make the power, the power in the, in the Corvair engines, to turbo it.
Well, you could turbo the Volkswagen motor and create more power.
my opinion yeah, I would do it both ways, and I'll actually do more, would you?
Well, okay, so you're gonna have to help me make that, make that work.
Okay, you're gonna come over and what are we gonna do?
We're gonna clean out the studio.
And no, no, no no, clean out the living room and do it in the living room.
Well, what'll, what'll?
Susie, think Susie doesn't care, yeah, she don't care.
She don't care, we'll move the.
Move her couch back into the into the dining room.
We'll do something.
I wanted to finish.
My Hemings sold cars Yep 1997 Jeep Cherokee.
Remember the square body Jeep Cherokee.
Yeah, kind of the start of the SUV, yeah, so what would you?
expect that to be what year again, 97.
Sixth brand, I'm thinking eight Four Pontiac Firebird from 1989.
That was that ugly generation.
It sold for $600.
That was to say so that sold without the mullet.
Yeah, the mullet $600.
Here's $600.
Take my car please.
Yes, here's $600.
You get rid of the car and I'll be happy.
This is for you, sir.
Uh-oh, a 1966 Oldsmobile Torinato.
Uh, sold price?
Nothing, I don't think it sold.
It's a zero.
I had a chance to buy one of those years ago and you didn't do it and I passed 1974.
This is for you, okay.
Chrysler Imperial LaBaron 74.
Oh, my God.
That was the.
K car version, wasn't it?
Oh my God, this is a huge thing $7800.
Oh, no, that's a call.
Oh my God $7700.
There you go, way to go.
Jeff Wins.
Well, I was TTNL 62.
Buick Skylark convertible.
Actually looks pretty good.
Black white wall tires.
Red interior, $15,000.
These are cars that sold through Hemmings Sold car classics 1964 International Harvester.
Wait, there's one back here, scout.
No, international Harvester, it is no, it's a tractor.
Oh, it's a tractor.
Sold for $23,000.
$6,000.
Way off.
I want to hurry through the because we're running out of time here.
The 67.
I know, david, thank you for pointing that out.
Let's see A 1983 Buick Riviera convertible $10,500.
I point these up because these are that is, a water leaking sieve.
Oh, you know that.
Yes, those convertibles were built by Hess and Eisenhart.
Great Well, how would you know that?
Because they also built some Tornado.
Also built Tornado's the same generation.
All right, you put the leak in there.
We close out this week's Hemmings sold car weekly roundup by telling you about a 1945 Farm All tractor Four grand $11,000.
It looks like it just walked out of the show.
See, I was going to say $11,000.
Jeff wins, jeff wins, that'd be something that you could mow the grass.
Tell Cathy.
There you go, you're going to do it.
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Founders Stan Holt invite you to visit the original Lupe Tortilla near I-10 and Highway 6.
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Head to East Louisiana.
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It twos on I-10, it can't miss it.
The original group of Lupe Tortilla restaurants invites you in for the best Tex-Mex anywhere.
Houston's finest cars are invited to another Gulf Coast Auto Shield Car Social Saturday December 2nd, and you're invited too.
Show off your personal pride and joy, or just stop in to see the likes of Lucid Lamborghini, porsche, ferrari and more.
Gulf Coast Auto Shield is your one-stop shop for paint detailing, coatings, window tint, clear bras and wheel repair.
The Car Social is your opportunity to get a tour of this state-of-the-art facility located at 11275 South Sam Houston Parkway, just south of the Southwest Freeway.
It all takes place Saturday, december 2nd, 9 to noon.
This is the perfect opportunity to connect with other car enthusiasts, from BMWs to Bentley's, corvette's to McLaren's.
The Car Social is a different kind of show.
Talk to the owners.
See Gulf Coast Auto Shield's facility.
You'll be amazed.
Put it on your calendar now.
The Gulf Coast Auto Shield Car Social Saturday, december 2nd, 9 to noon at 11275 South Sam Houston Parkway, just south of the Southwest Freeway.
The In-Wheel Time Car Talk Show will be there too.
We'll see you then.
That's it for this podcast episode of the In-Wheel Time Car Show.
I'm Don Armstrong, inviting you to join us for our live show every Saturday morning, 8 to 11 am Central on Facebook, youtube, twitch and our InWheelTimecom website.
Podcasts are available on Apple Podcasts, spotify, stitcher and YouTube.
About this episode
The episode dives into the vibrant atmosphere of the Hemi Hideout, featuring insights from guests and car club members during a cruise-in event. Notable discussions include a segment on the top five kit cars under $26,000, highlighting options like the Factory Five Daytona Coupe and the DAX Coupe. The hosts also chat with Shelley Gates, who shares her experiences managing the Hemi Hideout and its charitable contributions. The episode blends humor with automotive passion, showcasing the community spirit surrounding classic cars and kit car culture.
Original notes
Prepare to venture behind the scenes of the Hemi Hideout as we chat with Shelley Gates, the woman at the helm of this automotive sanctuary in Brookshire, Texas. You'll be privy to the meticulous planning and organization required to orchestrate major car events, and gain a new appreciation for the vintage aesthetic that the Hideout is famed for.
Then, we'll shift gears and chat with Jeff Dziekan about the exhilarating world of kit cars. He'll be sharing his top picks under $26k, and you'll hear all about the Factory Five Daytona Coupe, the Pilgrim 356 Speedster, the DAX Coupe, the Provo Design Quntas, and the DF Goblin. You'll learn about the various components that come with each kit and how you can turbocharge your engine for an adrenaline-pumping ride.
Finally, we've got the Gulf Coast Auto Shield Car Social on the horizon, taking place on December 2nd. You'll witness the finest autos Houston has to offer, from sleek Ferraris to luxurious Bentleys, and you'll have the opportunity to meet fellow car enthusiasts and tour the state-of-the-art facility. Be sure to mark your calendar for this unmissable event, you're in for a real treat!
Be sure to subscribe for more In Wheel Time Car Talk!
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In Wheel Time Podcast: Your Go-To Automotive Talk Show
In Wheel Time Podcast | Automotive talk with Don Armstrong, Michael Marrs, and Jeff Dziekan
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