Bore Scoring Is A Myth? Blackstone Labs Porsche Data Revealed!
Eleven After Nine | A Porsche Culture Podcast
Bore Scoring Is A Myth? Blackstone Labs Porsche Data Revealed!
Annotations will appear as you listen
0:00
51:10
Car
Porsche 996
Porsche 996 is a specific generation of the Porsche 911. The episode is talking about a known engine wear problem (“bore scoring”) and how often it shows up in cars like these.
Concept
oil change
An oil change is when you replace the engine oil. It helps keep the engine lubricated, and the episode is asking how often you really need to do it.
Term
oil additives
Oil additives are extra chemicals you add to engine oil to try to improve how it works. The episode is basically asking whether those additives actually help, or if regular maintenance is what matters more.
Term
oil analysis
Oil analysis means testing a small sample of your used oil. It can show whether your engine is wearing normally or if something is contaminating the oil.
Company
Blackstone Laboratories
Blackstone Laboratories is a service that tests used oil. You send in a sample, and they look for signs of engine wear and contamination so you can understand what your car’s oil is telling you.
Term
metal content
“Metal content” in oil analysis refers to the concentration of metals found in the used oil, which typically come from engine wear. Different metals can point to different wear sources (for example, bearings vs. cylinder components), helping interpret how hard the engine is working internally.
Company
Blackstone Labs
Blackstone Labs is a service that tests oil you’ve already used in your car. By comparing your results to lots of other engines, they can tell you whether your engine seems to be wearing normally or not.
Term
IMS issues
IMS is short for an intermediate shaft part inside some Porsche drivetrains. Some cars can have problems with a bearing there, and if it fails it can cause major damage.
Term
air cooled iteration
An “air-cooled” Porsche engine uses airflow to keep the engine cool. It’s important because the way the engine runs and wears can be different from water-cooled engines.
Term
bore scoring
Bore scoring is when the inside walls of an engine’s cylinders get scratched or worn. It usually happens when the engine doesn’t have enough good lubrication, so metal starts rubbing instead of gliding.
Term
high aluminum, high iron, and high silicon
They’re talking about lab results that measure tiny amounts of metals and particles. If aluminum, iron, and silicon are all high at the same time, it can point to a specific kind of engine wear or contamination.
Concept
trio of metals as a diagnostic pattern
Instead of panicking over one weird number in the oil, they look for a matching set of clues. When several metals are high together, it’s much more likely to mean a real internal wear problem.
Concept
track use
Track use is when you drive the car hard on a circuit. That puts more stress on the engine and oil, so the wear and oil condition can be different.
Concept
pre-buy samples
Pre-buy samples are oil tests you do before buying a used car. They’re meant to help you judge how healthy the engine is and whether it was cared for.
Concept
wear profile
A wear profile is basically how an engine’s wear changes as it gets more miles. The point here is that if you maintain the car well, the wear rate tends to stay predictable.
Term
oil passages
Oil passages are the internal routes that carry oil to the engine parts that need lubrication. If they get clogged, parts may not get enough clean oil.
Term
track time
“Track time” refers to driving on a racetrack, which typically increases engine stress, heat, and sometimes oil contamination compared with normal street driving. The speaker links abrupt changes like increased track time to changes in oil-analysis results that should be monitored.
Term
track day
A track day is when you drive on a race track for fun. Because you’re pushing the car harder, the oil can look different afterward, so it’s not always a sign of a problem.
Term
used oil levels in the gray area
“Gray area” refers to oil analysis results that aren’t clearly normal or clearly catastrophic. In that range, the recommendation is often to recheck later because operational factors (like track use or short trips) can temporarily affect readings.
Concept
direct fuel injection
Direct fuel injection means the car sprays fuel straight into the engine’s combustion area. It can affect engine operation and how the oil behaves, so it matters when you’re analyzing engine health.
Term
percentage of samples
They’re using inspection results and turning them into percentages—how many cars show the wear signs out of the total checked. It’s meant to show whether the problem is common or rare.
Term
boar scopes
A borescope lets you look inside the engine cylinders without fully tearing the engine apart. It helps confirm whether there’s real cylinder wear.
Concept
1.35%
They’re quoting another specific risk number: 1.35%. The point is to show the 3.8L version’s bore-scoring rate is still relatively low.
Term
viscosity
Viscosity is basically how thick the oil is. Your car’s manual specifies the right thickness so it can protect the engine in both cold and hot conditions.
Term
oil testing
Oil testing means sending or checking used oil to see how healthy it still is. The idea is to use the results to decide whether you really need an oil change, rather than just guessing by time.
Term
coolant leak
A coolant leak means the engine’s antifreeze isn’t staying where it should. If coolant gets into the engine oil, it can cause oil contamination and wear.
Concept
oil breaking down from its job of cleaning and lubricating
As you drive, the oil picks up dirt and the protective chemicals get used up. Eventually it can’t clean and protect as well as it used to.
Term
TBN
TBN is a test that shows how much “acid-fighting” ability your oil still has. When TBN drops, the oil is less able to protect the engine from corrosive byproducts.
Term
vacuum pump from the dipstick
This is a tool that pulls a small amount of oil out through the dipstick. It lets you get a sample without draining all the oil first.
Term
dipsticks
A dipstick is the stick you pull out to see if the engine has enough oil. Some newer cars don’t use one, so you may have to sample oil another way.
Term
midstream sample
A midstream sample is taken after the initial oil has drained and before the last oil comes out, aiming to avoid debris near the drain plug and dilution effects near the end. The speakers describe it as the “picture perfect” approach for more consistent oil analysis.
Term
pleats
Pleats are the folded layers inside an oil filter that increase surface area for trapping contaminants. Inspecting pleats “pleat by pleat” is an enthusiast technique to look for trapped debris patterns that may correlate with wear or contamination sources.
Concept
visible metal
Visible metal in oil or a filter indicates that wear debris is large enough to be seen, which typically correlates with more advanced damage. The lab notes it can be evidence of a problem, but oil sampling can detect much smaller, earlier wear particles.
Term
oil sample
You take a little used oil and send it to a lab. They look for tiny metal particles and other signs of wear, so you can spot engine problems early instead of waiting for something to break.
LIVE
You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind.
Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet.
Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average.
Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts
that are easy to come by.
In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount.
Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back.
Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.
National average 12-month savings by $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive
between June 2024 and May 2025.
Potential savings will vary.
Not feeling the spring energy yet?
You're not behind.
With Grow Therapy, you can start small, like talking to someone who gets it.
Covered by insurance, built for real progress.
Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th,
Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around.
You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability,
and get started in as little as two days.
And if something comes up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost.
Grow helps you find therapy on your time.
Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help.
Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans.
Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan.
Visit GrowTherapy.com slash Acast today to get started.
That's GrowTherapy.com slash Acast.
GrowTherapy.com slash Acast.
Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.
Cramped toes, collapsed arches, shot posture?
That's because 50% of guys are wearing shoes that are too darn narrow.
Stoke shoes are built to fix all that,
with a wider toe box that accounts for a foot's width and girth.
Stoke shoes let your toes spread out and do their job.
With five-star reviews, Stoke is the fastest-growing sneaker for under $100
for real men with real feet.
Available now at Murdox.
Go to stokeshoes.com to find a store near you.
Stoke shoes, thunderous comfort at half the price.
We cover the bore score rates for not only the 996s and 997s,
but I also talked to them about the 991s.
But when you should consider doing an oil change and spoiler alert,
it doesn't have to be every year.
We talk about what breaks down with the oil and do additives really matter?
Huge interviews coming up.
Please go check out my social medias, The 11 After 9 on Instagram.
You can find me on Facebook under 11 After 9.
Like and subscribe to the YouTube content if you can,
and check out my website, 11after9.com.
Enjoy the episode, everyone.
Hey, Derek, glad to be here.
Nothing better than oil analysis to help answer those questions,
and I'm glad to do it.
Awesome, man.
Thank you so much.
So let's do this just because people might be coming to this
not ever having heard of Blackstone Labs before.
Can you give us a quick overview of the company, what they do,
and maybe more specifically what you do,
because I think it's going to really speak to the process of all of this
as we move forward and talk about how it pertains to the cars we own,
and then how can we get samples to you,
and what are we going to get out of the whole thing?
Yeah, so Blackstone Laboratories has been in the oil analysis game,
since 1985.
And what sets us apart is not simply the data we provide,
but the way we explain it.
Our reports are easy to understand whether you are a industry expert
or a rookie that's just trying to take care of the car they own.
The whole point is that we want you to be able to understand
the data that we pull from the sample,
and then help you out by explaining the sources of metal content,
the signs of contamination, hopefully a lack thereof.
Answering the questions, the comments, the concerns that we have from our
customers, be it in the aviation field, automotive.
If it has oil in it, then it's a system that we can analyze,
and Porsche definitely falls in that category,
and we can assist owners that are interested,
merely by sending us a sample size of three and a half ounces.
That's all it takes to learn how your engine is wearing,
and if it's wearing more than we typically see,
we'll let you know if that's due to a contaminant we can spot,
or a problem with the oil itself.
So that's fantastic to know.
It's not like I have to shoulder an old milk jug of oil
and throw it in the mail to you, so that's great.
Some people have tried.
You would be surprised at the capacity that they will intend to fill,
but rest assured, all you need is three and a half ounces.
They really, really want you to get to the bottom of their sample,
and they're going to give you a lot of it.
And we would prefer if you stick to the oil, please.
Ah, that's fair enough, and we'll leave that where it is.
People's imaginations can fill in those blanks, but...
No doubt.
You know, man, it's interesting too, and I just want to note that
when you guys do your oil inspections,
and you can put it up against the sample sets of thousands of other motors,
and so you can give a good idea maybe of how sick your motor might be
if it is sick or if it's wearing correctly.
It's not in a vacuum, I guess maybe I'll say,
and those are one of the things we're going to talk about on today's podcast
is we're going to touch on the scary subjects of Bohr score.
We're going to talk about IMS issues with the motors,
and how can we tell...
Are you at the beginning of a potential rebuild down the line?
What does that look like?
And you can speak from authority because you can simply look those motors up,
right, in terms of your database, and we can talk about those real numbers.
Yeah, so it's really a credit to the Porsche ownership community
that they help keep our average file strong.
We're not comparing to a handful of samples,
we're comparing to samples in the thousands.
And a lot of the motors that we're going to talk about today,
you know, whether it be the M96, M97, so on and so forth,
these are motors that have dedicated communities with ownership interest in
not just owning the car, but taking care of it and keeping it on the road for a good long while,
whether that be someone who is priding themselves on track use,
who may want to mix in a track day here or there,
or they could just be trying to find the ideal oil change interval,
the million dollar question for really any engine out there.
But whatever the case may be, we're going to assist you by starting with a comparison
to our averages, which are built on samples from that model that you have.
So if it's an air cooled iteration, we're going to have averages for that.
If it's a water cooled 3.6 liter flat six,
and then going forward, we can even have averages specific to the DFI iteration of that motor
because it helps us help you.
So let's, you know, let's do this, let's jump right into it.
Let's talk about what's near and dear to our hearts in the Porsche world.
So we're, you know, Joe, we're a funny bunch.
You had complimented Porsche owners for being fastidious and they want to take care of their cars.
And I think that that's absolutely true.
I also think that because these cars cost a fair amount of money and we fall in love with them,
that we are very, just like our children sometimes, we're very worried when they get sick.
And we want to just try to make sure that we catch it early rather than let something
linger and potentially metastasize.
So, you know, the oil analysis is something that was never really on my radar when I was kind
of a younger owner of these cars.
You know, I figured, as long as I change my oil every 5,000 miles, I'm going to be golden.
And I never really thought much past that because I thought just kind of like eating healthy.
The best defense against anything bad that could happen is just fresh oil in your motor.
Let's talk about three different generations of motors because for those of you out there
that might not be super familiar with some of the common, I guess, watchouts or issues with
water cooled motors.
And so these motors are from the 997 generation.
There was a DOT 1 and a DOT 2.
So the DOT 1, 05 to 09 and then the DOT 2, 09 to 12.
And then there's another generation after that called the 991 generation.
And those are another set of motors that will take us to 2016.
So for the audience out there, you know, there's a couple issues with these motors on the earlier
motors, the 996 and the 997 motors, there's a worry about the IMS bearing, which could
potentially fail.
And there's also a worry about bore scoring.
And this is something that I know I fret about and I fretted about because I got a bore scope
check on my motor and essentially I wanted to find out if the cylinders had gouges in them because
of a lack of lubrication.
And what happens over time is essentially your motor kind of falls apart, it loses compression
and you have to rebuild it.
And so that's like a huge fear because I guess you might say that Porsche with every generation
might have an Achilles heel and bore scoring and IMS on the earlier 911s for the water cooled.
That's kind of their Achilles heel.
And I asked you in preparation for this podcast to take a look in your giant repository of engines
and motors to give us a sense of am I out of my mind if I lose sleep at night when it comes to
bore scoring?
And so let's talk about the motors base and ass 3.6 liter and 3.8 liter kind of cover that 996,
997.1 generation where I mean that's where a lot of people are most afraid about the IMS
bearings and most afraid about bore scoring.
And could you share some of the numbers that you found looking at those?
I mean, is it 25% of cars, 50% of cars like the internet would have you believe that it's just
waiting in your garage to grenade?
Well, it's safe to say that bore scoring in particular will start there.
That is a common concern, but the numbers show it's not a common problem.
And in order to assess that, what we're going to do is look at three elements in particular.
Porsche is unique in that we can see signs of bore scoring in the form of high aluminum,
high iron, and high silicon.
So when we see these three elements testing high together in these motors,
those are hallmarks of bore scoring being a problem in the way an oil analysis can see it.
So we're going to look for these elements and compare them to averages.
And we're not seeing it at a terribly high rate, which isn't to say that unfortunately,
your motor can't be affected.
But I would think it goes a long way in helping assuage concern that every engine is destined
to run into this because at least from the samples that we're seeing,
it's really not as common a problem.
In fact, if we just start with the 3.6 layer flat six,
we have thousands of samples to look back on.
This is one of the larger average files that we have and that we continue to build on a daily
basis because so many Porsche owners are dedicated to oil analysis.
And when you look at these percentages of samples that have that trio,
high aluminum, high iron, high silicon, in the 3.6, we're seeing that at 2.22 percent
of the 3.6 flat six samples.
So just over 2 percent of what this kind of reminds me of IMS,
where everyone swears an IMS is going to grenade and the numbers are like under 5 percent.
So you're saying for the 3.6 motor, you only see boar scoring evidence in a little over 2 percent?
The surefire signs because you can have one of these elements a little out of whack,
but it takes that trio to really assume a problem of that nature.
And we're only seeing it pop up at that rate.
So that's really even lower than I would have.
If you had asked me this before I went digging into the numbers,
I might have settled around five or maybe eight if I was really feeling generous,
but 2.22 percent, I think that probably even beats most expectation even on the
oil analysis side. I wouldn't have assumed it was even that low, but sure enough,
for the 3.6 looking pretty good.
Dude, that's awesome. That's amazing. I would have guaranteed you it was 8 percent or 10 percent
because it gets such a bad rap on forums.
And people are always talking about how this is an eventuality, it will happen,
it just hasn't happened yet. And that makes me sleep.
All right, so let's do this. Let's do a small caveat though, right?
And I do think that this is important to mention.
Porsche owners can be fastidious, there's no doubt, but not all Porsche owners are sending
their samples into you. And so my thought process probably is that the Porsche owners that are
sending their samples into you are the ones that understand proper warm-up techniques and
probably are a little bit more in tune with the health and the lifeblood of their motors.
And so I mean, would you agree that there's a chance that that 2.2 might be a little skewed
based on the sample set of like, you probably have the best of the best owners that really
care about their motors? It's fair to take that into consideration,
I think it has to be said. But I would also add that we're seeing a really wide range of ownership
in the sense that we're seeing people who are interested in track use populate that
average file, people who are not, people who are strictly using their car in the gentlest manner,
taking it to a show or two, you know, every year or so, and people who are doing a mix.
We have people who are sending in pre-buy samples where they can't speak to how the motor is taking
care of. They can only tell us how they would take care of it. We are seeing the pre-buy,
we're seeing the sample that's their first since acquiring the motor. So I think that while I give
a lot of credit to the owners that keep our lights on, I also would say that we are getting as
generous and as illustrative a spread as one could really ask for.
What a great point, because you're right, you're getting samples, people are doing
pre-purchase inspections, they're sending their oil into you, is this motor going to go or not?
And you're right, who knows what kind of life that motor led. And so that probably does make
me a little bit more comfortable that it's not a skewed kind of sample size. 2.2%, Joe, I mean.
The numbers are good even moving forward from that. I mean, if we just shift gears to the 3.8,
a little bit higher at 3.63%, but even so, 3.63, I would have a hard time believing that people
would expect it to be that low either in this building or outside of it. 3.63, looking pretty
good. And again, that's for the 3.8 plastics. It's this other kind of old maids tale that
the most of the bore scoring happens with the S motors, the large displacement motors, because
I've heard everything from thinner cylinder walls, and so it doesn't modally heat as much. And because
of that, it tends to bore score more. And I think that that tells everything it needs to tell is
that it's like 3.5%. I mean, it's under 4% for the S motors within a variance of a percent and a
half of the base motors. And so where I always thought, get the base motor, be safe, be safe,
get the base motor. Maybe that's not it, which is really incredible if you think about it.
Yeah, it just goes to show you can go big and still expect a healthy engine based on these
percentages. And really, Porsche in general, it's kind of a treat to look at a lot of their samples,
especially wearing samples can even look pretty clean right out of the factory. And down the road,
it's not necessarily going to make a lot of metal as it ages either. Once you have that maintenance
plan dialed in, and you have stable trends emerge, you know, I'm not really going to expect a big
change in the wear profile just based on odometer mileage either.
So you're talking about when you're talking about engines that are just broken in, people put that
500, 800, 900 mile break in period, and then they send their oil to you. So you get them from the
birth of the motor, and then you kind of follow it down the journey of however many miles people
put on that same motor. Ideally, I mean, I say ideally because while lemons are rare to find,
they do exist. And they do exist, whether it's an older model, or a newer one that is a recent
release. You know, we will see because as you know, recalls are still a fact of life. And we're
going to see some motors that simply never get off on the right foot. And for that reason, when
you start with a factory fill and you go from there, we can see, okay, this engine either is
showing the progress one should make as break in and sealer wash out, or it's clearly not. And if
it's not moving in the right direction, if we see metals that are not improving or getting worse,
unfortunately, that can speak to an engine that has not settled in well, the break in process
has not been smooth. Maybe there is, you know, sealer that's been clogging oil passages that
hasn't left the system. So it's nice to have that starting point, because we can track how
things have been evolving, or unfortunately, not evolving for some motors, and tell people if it
does appear typical. So you said something really interesting there that I just want to touch on.
And this will be a question I'll ask you in a minute. But you said getting worse or not improving.
And do you see once you get those that that that trio you described of oh, we might have a problem
here. Do you do you see it where it can hang on and just maintain or even a sample down the line,
maybe even be a little bit better? Yeah, I can't tell you how many instances I've seen of motors
that have been able to improve on one less than ideal report. You know, I think oftentimes when
there's been abrupt changes in operation, someone has modified power, they have done a significant
increase in track time. And it's led to some increases that we certainly want to keep an eye on.
But it's kind of like getting your blood pressure checked where you can have a less than ideal read
out. Now, does that mean you have heart disease? Well, fact of the matter is you need to see how
things are trending sometimes. And engines can improve on levels that are less than ideal levels
that have increased just situationally. But the trend will tell the tale of whether or not that
was a blip on the radar whether or not you had high blood pressure because you went to the smoke
house a few too many times in the past month and two may 12 ounce curls. And then things can improve.
So it is a situation where analysis will guide you through and tell you the story. Because when
the oil is doing its job of cleaning and lubricating, it's picking up that metal, it's picking up.
And while telling you how it's holding up based on its physical properties.
That's super interesting. Because you know, I kind of think like you take a snapshot of your oil,
you know, and you send it to you and I get it back and it's like a really bad report. And I'm
like, oh my God, this is the end of my motor. Like this is it. So I guess it's a really good point
to be like, well, yeah, but did you just do a track day? You know, are there any additives you can
put in your oil to try to help maintain? It's the engine's current state. You know, these are
things we can talk about briefly, but it does make sense that unless it's like catastrophic and
unless you like literally on the report right in a pen, Derek, don't drive this car, then it probably
has to be like, okay, we'll drive it for another couple thousand miles, send me another sample,
and then we'll see how they match up. So at least you have two data points, not one.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, unfortunately, there can be one offs, there can be situations where sitting in
the analyst's chair, you've looked at enough samples, you've seen enough patterns where I have
told a customer a time or two that if this motor hasn't failed yet, it probably will soon, because
sometimes there's just no good explanation for levels that can show up in used oil. But when
you're in that gray area and we advise checking back, it means that we can allow some leeway. These
are changes that are not unheard of or they can be associated with operational factors,
and that's really the benefit of having an analyst that is not running the numbers through,
you know, like an AI program, but is actually referencing the same model, experiencing similar
conditions, and dialing in those comparisons as neatly as we can.
I don't know what you're talking about, Joe. When I get your samples back, I put them on ChatGPT,
and it tells me the real truth. You don't know what you're talking about.
The whole truth and, well, yeah, nothing but the truth in the case of ChatGPT.
Yeah, nothing but the truth is correct. Before we move on to talking about
oil just and maybe things we can do to try to improve results, can we talk about a couple
more motors? So we talked about the normally aspirated motors. So these are the, like in my
997.1 that I have out in my garage that I was fearful of and I got a boar scope done.
In 2009, Porsche came out with a direct fuel injected motor, and it would completely change
the architecture and took away the IMS bearing issue, which was kind of an issue on the earlier
motors. And people generally said, like, oh, well, now this is the next generation of Porsche
motor. There's no issues. And then years go by, and Pete, there's these whisperings in the corners
of the internet, Joe, that, uh-oh, the direct fuel injected motors have boar scoring too.
I asked you to look into those motors as well. Can you hit me with some numbers?
Yeah. So the extreme skeptics will be satisfied in knowing that boar scoring technically still
exists, at least in terms of the signs we can see. But the percentage is, well, they may disappoint
them a little bit. Because when you look at starting with the 3.6 DFI, we're seeing that
trio test high in 1.31% of samples. You move to the 38, you would think it's a typo because it's
virtually the same 1.35 on the 38. Let's just talk about the fact that on these DFI motors,
which everyone talks about, well, these are just almost as bad as the generation before.
Be very careful. Get boar scopes. It's a super issue. You're telling me that it's like a rounding
error in terms of the amount of boar scoring you're seeing in these motors at under 1.5%.
The samples we're seeing, they look even better on average.
These are like thousands of cars? I mean, thousands.
Yeah. So we're in excess of the thousands on the 3.8. So the DFI iterations, I have
the strongest average file for the 3.8 DFI. And that's the one with 1.35%.
And we're still into the thousands on the 3.4 that we'll talk about next.
So let's roll into the 991. So Porsche comes out with the next generation, 2012 to 2016.
New body style, an iteration on the motor before it's still direct fuel injected.
And I have a Boxster in my garage that has a DFI motor in it. We're talking about the 9.11 motors
specifically, but certainly carry over. And people are saying boar scoring is affecting these
too. So what did you find, Joe? The 3.4, we're looking at 0.75% of samples.
Come on. 0.75? 0.75 of that trio showing up. And again, we're not talking about
10, 20 samples. It's thousands. So I mean, hard to take a lot of, I don't know, it's hard to
drum up the concern there. But the thing is, people aren't wrong to want to look into this.
They're not wrong to want to make sure that their motor isn't the one. But they don't need to assume
that they bought a lemon just because people are still whispering about this issue.
It hasn't gone, but certainly not more prevalent than we've seen in earlier generations.
Well, there are people on the internet, of course, that rely on fireworks. And they
certainly try to say that the 991 generation of motors, that 3.4, 3.8 liter,
they are just as bad as the earlier motors in terms of bore scoring. And you're telling me that
it's under 1%, it's three quarters of a percent. 0.75 on the 3.4, which is, again,
if I said the first numbers was a surprise, this is even more so. And it just goes to show at the
end of the day, hot takes, they serve to keep the content fire warm, but they aren't necessarily
based in the analysis that you can gain from your oil change.
I'm falling out of my seat because I guarantee you that if I were to walk down the street and point
to any car, Honda, a Toyota, you name it, most likely they probably have some level of bore
scoring that's maybe higher than 0.75%, especially here in New Hampshire. I would imagine that
this puts a 911 in line with any other manufacturer of reliable motors where this shouldn't happen.
I wouldn't be shy about having one in the garage. I'll just say that.
Yeah, man. I love that. We're going to get one for you. What about the 3.8 liter motor in the 991s?
Yeah, so the 3.8, we're only looking at a rate of 1.35%.
National average 12-month savings by $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive
between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.
Not feeling the spring energy yet? You're not behind. With grow therapy, you can start small,
like talking to someone who gets it, covered by insurance, built for real progress.
Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist
who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters, like insurance,
specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days.
And if something comes up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost.
Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing,
grow therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, sessions average about $21
with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan.
Visit growtherapy.com-acast today to get started. That's growtherapy.com-acast.
Growtherapy.com-acast. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.
So it's minuscule. All right, so worst case scenario.
So everyone has to take from this that, yes, bore scoring is an issue that has been documented.
Talking to you, Joe, I have extreme comfort in that I can say that it's overblown.
If you're going to be spending multiple tens of thousands of dollars on a car
for the sake of 500 bucks to have a bore scope done, you could call it cheap insurance just to
make sure that you are on the better side of not. I do have a lot of mechanic friends, Joe,
that say, yeah, I see them. We get them in and we see them a fair amount.
But I wonder too, it's kind of like selection bias. If cars are having an issue and they go to
the mechanic, then mechanics are going to see cars with issues, right? So unless it's someone that
only does pre-purchase inspections where hopefully they have like a general population of cars that
they can say yes and no, mechanics that often tell me like, oh, I would never buy this car,
everyone's a problem. Sometimes I say, well, everyone you see is a problem because you're the
guy that people go to with the problem. Now, I'm not saying that's the case for bore score,
but I'm saying that you told me that's the case for bore score because these numbers are ridiculous
and below my mind 0.75%, 1% for the 991 generation of owners.
So let me ask you this. We talked about you are starting to see the angry trio,
the ticking time bomb potentially. And you use the term of high blood pressure,
you use kind of that analogy, which I absolutely love. Like let's say you have high cholesterol,
right? You have a couple of symptoms. Do you have lifestyle modification like as in
you shouldn't take your car to the track as much or take extra precautions? I want to talk more
about the medication route that someone with high cholesterol might have. And by that I mean,
what can you do to the oil you put in your car to try to maintain or perhaps improve
the degradation of your engine if you are starting to show these signs? Do you have any
suggestions when it comes to that? So the nice thing about API certified products,
that meet the owner's manual specs, the brand or blend doesn't really matter. Now that isn't to
say that there aren't differences in the various brands or blends that you can buy. They certainly
all have their own stick. They all have their own recipe that promises to be better than the rest.
But we don't see a noticeable difference just depending on the oil you run. And that is a good
thing in the sense that if you're buying an API certified product with the correct viscosity,
you can bank on it providing the necessary wear protection. When you have a problem,
no oil in the world is going to make it go away. So people can obsess over the wrong thing, which
is buying the perfect oil for that engine. Which if there was a perfect oil with all the competition
in the industry, you can bet that the oil companies would know about it. You can bet that there would
be a known quantity in that area. So when you talk about lifestyle changes, equating that to
vehicle ownership, just focus on buying an oil that fits the manual and fits your wallet.
Start there. As far as additives that go beyond what's in the oil, it's kind of redundant. And
just kind of stick with the analogy we have building so far. How many supplements do you
market that are promised to lengthen your lifespan to make this or that issue go away when
reality eat a healthy diet? And if you want to take a supplement on top of it, okay, but at some
point, there's more present than what your body can know to do with. And it's similar when it comes
to additive packages, where people may obsess with adding more molybdenum or more phosphorus and zinc.
And I just think there comes a stopping point where the motor can't really make use of all the
exorbitant amounts of additive that people want to pack in there. It's like, okay, you can take
30 vitamin C pills, but that doesn't mean that your body can use all of that. And similar with
additive packages, I think people wanting to supplement with more of this or that element,
whatever the case may be, if it's an API certified product, it has enough added in it to cover the
basis. So in essence, what you're saying is it's the Porsche comparison of peeing out fluorescent
pee because you've taken too many supplements that your body can't absorb. I mean, essentially,
you're putting additives in oil that perhaps only to a threshold can your motor really enjoy the
benefits of. Yeah, I think there just comes a point where you need to move away from what you're
using and look at how you're using the motor you're putting it in. Are you paying attention to the
system? Expound on that a little bit. What do you mean? Yeah, so I think that when we see differences
in the wear profile, often that's more so related to operational factors, whether or not people are
going to the track that can influence a wear profile. But we can also see some motors are fit
for it. It's never a one size fits all. And that's why you need to go the analysis to see
how the engine is responding to it. The oil is the key to learning what's going on in your engine,
but the oil doesn't necessarily dictate what's going on in the engine. It's your key to finding
out what's going on without having to open it up. Like recently, I looked at a few different 3.8
flat six DFI's. Now, these were from two different owners, but three samples in total.
One sample, the owner put roughly 3,500 miles on the oil, they mixed in some track time,
and the sample looked good. We didn't see levels that were remotely high compared to averages.
Then they ran the oil longer, they went about 55 mile 5,500 miles, they added in more track time.
The levels did not look so good. We saw increases that could show excess wear in the bores.
Now, one might look at that and say, oh, well, if I have a 3.8, I just don't need to go 5,500
miles and I'll be fine. But then I looked at another owner's sample with virtually the same
mileage they noted track time on their oil information slip and their sample looked very good.
It looked as good as that other customer's initial sample that had fewer miles on it.
So it's never one size fits all. Every motor has its own story. And I think that different owners
are going to, I mean, Porsche owners are very proud of their individuality. And I think that you can
bank on one owner treating their car, not poorly, but they can be more demanding of it than the
next guy. Or maybe they are just simply their day to day operation doesn't compare. And I think
that's where we can see those changes shine through because in none of the cases I've mentioned,
are they running like some bizarre food grade oil concoction or some brew of five different
brands or blends? No, they went and bought a brand or blend that we all know by name.
You know, and then it was probably the same 040 with the same added package. And
that's all well and good. It's about what the oil has in it that will tell you if you're doing
the right things, whether that be the right oil change interval, the, you know, the right amount
track days mixed in, or if you are having contamination that you didn't know about that
is causing the engine to wear more than it should. That's really the silent killer, whether you're
Porsche or anyone else having contaminants that are in the system, in those microscopic levels
that you wouldn't know about, but the oil does. So that's really what can affect the wear profile
in the long term. What strikes me and what I get frustrated about is I want to have a silver bullet.
Like you just said to me, 3,500 miles looks great, 5,500 miles both with track time,
it didn't look great. And so like you just said, my mind goes, okay, if someone asked me,
how long should I change my oil? If I track my car sometimes, I want to have an answer.
But I think the answer is there is no answer because every motor is very different. I mean,
if you have that example of two very different owners with two very different results with the
same use case, it's like, well, maybe one engine just is wearing better than another. And that's
just the way of things. And you just unfortunately have to, unfortunately, you fortunately,
unfortunately, fortunately have to send your oil in to Joe to tell you how your motor is doing.
It's kind of like just to beat this analogy to death about the health of a body. It is just
like being genetically predisposed to heart disease versus someone who's not. You can be as
healthy in lifestyle as you want, but sometimes you just genetically, that's how you're built.
And that's how the motors built. And maybe that's like a really good
way to look at it that the only way to figure it out is to get your blood taken
and get those results. And that's your oil sample. Do you see, I know you talked about
kind of the API standards, do you see any additives in oil that ever help?
Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed progressives name your price
tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and
they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy
or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see
your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool,
progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, price and coverage match limited
by state law. Not feeling the spring energy yet, you're not behind. With growth therapy,
you can start small like talking to someone who gets it covered by insurance built for real progress.
Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist
who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance,
specialty identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes
up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow helps you find therapy on your time.
Whatever challenges you're facing, grow therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance
plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan.
Visit growth therapy.com slash a cast today to get started. That's growth therapy.com
slash a cast growth therapy.com slash a cast availability and coverage vary by state and
insurance plan. We don't see a significant improvement in where as a result of using this
additive or that additive. But I always I hesitate a little bit when people will go to the extreme
and say, okay, so they're all useless because in truth, I think some of them have practical
purposes that do pan out. We see a lot of, you know, instances of viscosity improvers or oil
savers where if you have a consumption issue, if you have a leak that you need to slow down,
those can have the real world impact of assisting in that area. But it's again, it's
whether it's an additive or an oil off the shelf. That's not what's saving your motor from
destruction. The oil, however, is going to assist you in knowing what's going on. So
take it to the bottom of it. So so pivoting. I live in New Hampshire. It's Joe. It's cold
all the time in New Hampshire lately. This has been a long winter. And we put our cars up
on the left or in the garage under a cover to take a nap for a couple months at a time.
I get a lot of questions. When I put my car away, do I do I put it away with dirty oil?
Like let's say that I did 2000 miles in my 9-11 or 2500 miles in my 9-11. Do I put it away with
dirty oil potentially with maybe moisture in the oil? Do I just put it away and change it in the
spring when I'm going to be driving it? Or before I put it away, do I drive it really hard and try
to burn off all the moisture in the oil to try to put it away so it's as clean as it can be even
though it's dirty? Or do I put it away and change the oil before I put it away so it's got clean
oil in the motor? So in the spring when it wakes up, I can drive it immediately and not worry about
it. So on its face, you know, a 2000 mile interval, 2500 miles, whatever the case may be,
that's not necessarily too much before you put the car into storage and then take it out for
the next season. But like I mentioned earlier, you want to know how that oil looks in testing
regardless of who you are, what car you have, because how that oil looks in testing could
dictate whether or not that oil change interval needs to be shorter, but it's never the calendar
time that you have to take into consideration. It's always the miles because when you talk about
moisture, that can be a common concern out there, but it's another one of those things that's not
a common problem because you're only going to have moisture build up in a modern engine
if it has a coolant leak. You're not going to have just moisture from the atmosphere
accumulating. Yeah, that was a problem for engines with open breathers, not a problem for today's
designs. So you can cross off your list of concerns and just rest on the mileage because if you put
that motor into storage and it's had that oil in there for 2000 miles, well, if that oil change
interval is known to you and doesn't involve a lot of metal content having built up, you know,
you have a sample history where you know, hey, I know that 2000 miles for me doesn't involve
a lot of metal for this engine. And I know from analysis that contamination isn't a concern for
me. I know that my air and oil filtration systems have been up to par during an interval of this
length, you know, based on the solids that are present, based on evidence of dirt contamination,
both of which we're going to see, then you can have confidence and say, putting that vehicle
in the storage with two or three or 4,000 miles, depending on what you've got, and then taking
it out and then accumulating the amount of mileage that you want. And with every sample,
you can have confidence in either the interval you're running being a good one. You can note
that you have interest in extending that interval will tell you if that's okay.
And of course, we'll let you know if a shorter interval would be ideal.
But whatever the case may be, bring it back to the miles, don't obsess over the calendar time.
So why does Porsche say that it's like, you know, you have to replace the oil every 10,000 miles
or every one year. And that's kind of the recommendation.
Well, I think whether it's manufacturer of the engine or an oil company, they have to draw a
line somewhere with regards to calendar time. And I think 12 months becomes an industry standard
that's repeated over and over, no matter who it is, whether it's Porsche, you know, I've had GM
tell me that I've had Honda tell me that. And so I think that whatever the case may be,
miles are where we see that metal accumulated. That's where we see the oil actually breaking
down from its job of cleaning and lubricating. The add to package doesn't go away. That's for
just based on how long it's been sitting. Yeah, I've seen samples that have been in vehicles
where the owner reported it being installed seven years ago, 10 years ago. And it didn't
necessarily look bad in terms of the physical properties, the viscosity would be in range,
the TBN that we test would show active add have left. Now, those samples may not have had a ton
of mileage, but that's the point. The miles are when the oil is actually doing its job. And that's
when it loses its effectiveness over the course of its lifespan, not based on days or months or
years. So that's interesting. And I think about my motorcycles. I have a couple old motorcycles
that I just never have the chance to really ride. And so if I put 150 miles on one in a season,
that's like a good year. And I really get after myself because I'm like, I should be changing
the oil, if not every year than every other year, every 300 miles, because it's been two years.
What you're telling me is, if I change my oil and I use a good oil filter, I use API
okayed oil, that bike can sit or that Porsche can sit in my garage for three seasons, four seasons.
And if I only accumulate X number of miles that I know are safe, according to having
the inspection done by you guys, it's not going to be like the oil isn't doing its job
when I use it in that fourth season. It doesn't have anything to do with time.
No, I wouldn't say it's terribly unusual for us to see clients send in samples where they have
accumulated a season or two, because that's how long they need to rack up a decent amount of hours
or miles, whatever the case may be. So if you are in a position where you simply
don't want to trust the calendar time theory, then you can always take a sample without changing
the oil, send it off, and we can tell you, hey, all good here. Or you can proceed with just changing
the oil and then waiting to hear back that way. But people don't even have to do a full oil change
if they want to take a sample with a vacuum pump from the dipstick and don't change it.
Sometimes that's a really smart choice depending on how expensive their oil change is, because
oil changes can be pretty crazy depending on the sump capacity that you're rolling with. So
a $40 sample can tell you, hey, we knew calendar time wasn't a concern, but if this gives you
some peace of mind, rest assured, based on XYZ factors, you're in good shape.
So that's something I could just like go on Amazon and get an oil extractor that just has
kind of a long tube. You put it down your dipstick and extract oil.
So actually, we sell one on our website as well if you would rather not go that route,
but you can order one from Amazon. You can go to the hardware store. You can order one from us.
Wherever you find it, all you need is a hand pump and some refrigerator tubing,
and then that will go down the dipstick tube. You pull up a sample and then again,
three and a half ounces is nowhere near a significant amount relative to most sump capacities.
Yeah, especially Porsche. We have lots of oil in our motors. Of course, the smart people out
there are like, well, Derek, Porsche did away with dipsticks quite some time ago. And so would
you feel comfortable just opening up the oil cap and taking a sample from there?
It can be a messy extraction process, but if you don't mind it, that oil counts just as much.
So it's not like it has to be like from the bottom of the sump or any
the idea would be that you run the car, let it cool down, and then that oil is mixed enough
that whatever sample you take from wherever it is should give a representative sample.
Yeah. So oil does a good job of holding everything in a pretty even suspension,
because we're looking at microscopic metals that are far too small to see with the naked eye.
That stuff is held in a nice even suspension. The visible stuff can settle,
but generally when we're looking at elements in part per million, that's a pretty even spread.
So you don't have to obsess over the exact location of where that oil is from,
whether it's say towards the end of the drain or the start of the drain.
The only real concerns, and I say real, but real world concerns, I guess I should say,
if you sample right at the start of a drain, sometimes you can get some excess dirt or debris
from around the drain plug area. But I mean, in terms of metal content that's going to speak
to how that engine is wearing, you should get a pretty good look. I think in most cases,
if you're in an ideal situation during an oil change, just waiting for a midstream sample that
is not so far towards the end, you miss the drain and not right at the beginning where you can get
some debris. Yeah, that's, I guess I should say, the picture perfect sample. But when you're just
trying to grab one in a pinch and you need to see how that oil looks, it's okay if it's towards the
beginning. I used to have a guy that I knew that religiously would, when he changed his oil, he
pull off his oil filter, cut it open, he'd inspect all the pleats, pleat by pleat, to see if there's
any, anything shiny, anything sparkly in there. And I know that you folks look at filters from time to
time. Is there any benefit of doing that, sending you an oil filter and oil or instead of oil? Or
can you tell everything you need to know from the oil and you don't need the filter? Where does
that line stand? So we do test filters, I'd say it's more predominant for the aircraft crowd,
because there are very specific service bulletins that relate to certain sizes and amounts that can
really be of use for people in the aircraft world that have to take the utmost caution. Now,
whether it's aircraft or gas diesel, whatever the engine is that has a filter in place, we can of
course check it for visible metal and identify the metallurgy, whether it is brass bronze,
it steels, you know, obviously easy to catch with a magnet, you know, looking at aluminum,
identifying these, giving you sizes and amounts. And of course, that is valuable in the sense that
visible metal can be further evidence of a problem. But that's really something that,
you know, like you mentioned, you can do on your own far cheaper. We're of the mind of,
course, we can do it for you. But it is such an expensive time consuming process that we don't
really beat down anyone's door for a filter sample, because we're so packed to the brim with oil that
we have so much to go around. But we can look at it. I think in some cases, when people are
building as convincing a case that they have a problem that can give them even more to go on.
But I think it's something that in general, you can rest on an oil sample telling you
the essentials. If you're driving a car, that's really going to be your go to for most everything.
Filter is a little bit extra in my mind. I have to imagine that if you get to the point where
you're finding chunks of anything in your filter, the oil would have told you long before that you
have an issue. Yeah. So generally, big problems start with microscopic signs. And that's where
the oil sample comes in handy. So yeah, you're correct in that typically, if it's making big
pieces of metal, the smaller pieces have been there for a while. Now some sudden problems exist.
That is an important caveat I will extend in that you can have sudden problems that come up.
Some people will, I'd say it's pretty common really for us to see samples where they just left
an oil chain shop or a dealership. And they had the horror story of a bolt being loose and losing
all the oil and they're going down the highway and they suddenly have the motor seize up.
So sudden problems happen where there hasn't been time for that microscopic stuff to build up.
Yeah. But not so common, I would say.
Yeah. I would imagine though if you have a hole in the side of the block of your motor because
it ran out of oil because it all came out the bottom, no one's going to be sending a filter
into you saying what's the problem. But your point is very well made, Joe. And I,
dude, I just want to thank you so much. I've kept you on for an hour and I feel like this has been
such an amazing conversation because it's put me at ease and I hope it puts my audience at ease
in that just like anything on the internet, the forums and the chatting of how bad things are,
when you really look into the science of it and you really get into sample sets and you look at
the black and white picture, these cars are very reliable. And while it's always really important
to do your due diligence and when you're purchasing a car or running a car to keep a constant eye on
things just like anything else in life, I don't have to get in my 997 this evening and worry
that I'm going to have a catastrophic issue because these are really reliable motors and
these numbers you shared with me were absolutely incredible. And I just really, really want to
thank you, Joe. I'm going to have you on the podcast as we go along for sure because you're
my oil guy, but this was awesome. And I hope anyone that has questions about the health of their
motor, whether they're looking to buy a car or they're owning a car and they want to see how
their car has been wearing, take Joe up on his offer and go on their website, grab a package,
ship in those three and a half ounces, and get that email. And at least then you have a data
point, right? You have a baseline of where your health of your car is and then from there, you
know, you can decide how you want to manage the maintenance from there, therefore, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're here to help you. And for that reason, if you're interested in
oil analysis and you want to know if your vehicle has, you know, signs of bore scoring,
signs of this, that or the other, you know, just let us know. We have an oil information slip where
you can voice that concern. And we want to hear from you as well. Let us know if you're seeing
signs of trouble on your end, like if you're wary of bore scoring, are you noticing
increasing oil consumption that can speak to that problem on your end? And then we'll attack
the metals. We'll let you know what we're seeing on our end. I think working together with people,
that's really where we're able to build the connections and helping them take care of what
they own. Joe Adams of Blackstone Labs, thank you so much for the time, my friend. I can't
wait to have you on again. Thank you. All right, my friend.
You're listening to this podcast. So I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact
you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with progressive save over $900 on average.
Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with
discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one
discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive
insurance company and affiliates. National average 12 months savings by $946 by new customers
surveyed who saved with progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.
Cramped toes, collapsed arches, shot posture. That's because 50% of guys are wearing shoes
that are too darn narrow. Stoke shoes are built to fix all that with a wider toe box that
accounts for a foot's width and girth. Stoke shoes, let your toes spread out and do their job.
With five star reviews, Stoke is the fastest growing sneaker for under $100 for real men
with real feet. Available now at Murdoch's, go to stokeshoes.com to find a store near you.
Stoke shoes, thunderous comfort at half the price.
Acast powers the world's best podcast. Here's a show that we recommend.
Just put it on and let yourself drift. Fall asleep with Henrik is available wherever you get your
podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
About this episode
Blackstone Labs’ Joe Adams breaks down Porsche engine wear using oil-analysis data, challenging the internet fear that “bore scoring is inevitable.” Using thousands of samples, he cites low rates of the telltale aluminum/iron/silicon trio: about 2.22% for 3.6, 3.63% for 3.8, ~1.31–1.35% for direct-injected (DFI) variants, and ~0.75% for the 991 3.4. He emphasizes trends over single samples, proper oil selection over additives, and using analysis to guide oil-change intervals and storage practices.
Original notes
Do you want the actual data from the expert that disputes everything you have heard about Bore Scoring? Every forum, Facebook group, and "expert" corner of the internet would have you believe that if you own a water-cooled 911, your engine is a ticking time bomb. I’ve spent countless nights losing sleep over this—so I went straight to the source for the real numbers.
In this episode of ElevenAfterNine, I’m joined by Joe Adams of Blackstone Labs. Joe isn’t guessing; he’s looking at a database of thousands of Porsche engine samples. We break down the actual failure rates for the 996, 997, and 991 generations, and the results are not what you’ve been told.
Connect with ElevenAfterNine:
• Official Website: ElevenAfterNine.com (Leave a topic suggestion or question!)
• Instagram: @theelevenafternine
• Podcast: Search "ElevenAfterNine" on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
Connect with Blackstone Labs:
• Website: Blackstone-labs.com
• Podcast: Check out Joe on the Slick Talk podcast.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
0:00
51:10