Buying a Car in America is Broken & This PROVES It | Episode 968
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Term
out-the-door pricing
Out-the-door pricing is the final amount you pay for a car, including everything like taxes and fees. It helps you know exactly how much money you'll need to spend to buy the car.
Term
MSRP
MSRP is the price that the car maker suggests you should pay for a new car. It's like a starting point for how much a dealership might charge you.
Car
Ford F150
The Ford F-150 XLT is a version of Ford's popular pickup truck, known for being tough and versatile. The 2025 model has features that make it good for both work and everyday use.
Concept
retail automotive
Retail automotive is about how cars are sold to people. It includes everything from the prices you see advertised to how dealerships help you buy a car.
Term
FTC
The FTC is a government agency that makes sure companies don't lie in their ads. This includes making sure car dealers are honest about prices.
Term
dealer discount
A dealer discount is when the car dealership lowers the price of a car. This can happen for sales events or if they have too many cars in stock.
Company
TASCA Ford
TASCA Ford is a car dealership that sells Ford vehicles. They help customers buy new or used cars and provide services like maintenance.
Term
out-the-door price
The out-the-door price is how much you will actually pay for a car after adding everything like taxes and fees. It's the total cost to take the car home.
Company
Flood Ford
Flood Ford is a car dealership that sells Ford vehicles. They also provide services like car repairs.
Term
Woodhouse discount
The Woodhouse discount is a special price cut offered by a car dealership called Woodhouse. It helps make buying a car cheaper.
Term
retail bonus cash
Retail bonus cash is money that car manufacturers give to dealerships to help them sell cars. It can lower the price you pay when buying a car.
Term
trade assistance
Trade assistance is money that car companies give you when you trade in your old car for a new one. It helps lower the price of the new car you want to buy.
Term
price point
Price point is the specific price at which something is sold. When talking about cars, it means the amount you expect to pay after discounts.
Concept
rebate
A rebate is a way to get some money back after you buy something. In car sales, it means the dealer or manufacturer gives you a discount after you've paid for the car.
Term
destination fee
The destination fee is the cost to deliver a car from the factory to the dealership. It's an extra charge you might see when buying a car.
Term
dock fees
Dock fees are extra charges that car dealerships might add to cover the cost of getting the car from the shipping dock to their lot. It's something to watch out for when buying a car.
Term
add-ons
Add-ons are extra features or services that you can buy when getting a car, like special coatings or warranties. They can make the car more expensive than the base price.
Term
advertised price
The advertised price is what the dealership shows as the price for a car, which might be lower than what you actually pay after negotiations.
Concept
price difference
Price difference means how much the cost varies between different places selling the same car. Some dealers might charge more or less than others.
Concept
online research
Online research means looking up information about cars and prices on the internet. It helps you know what to expect before you go to a car dealership.
Car
Ford Bronco
The Ford Bronco is a tough-looking SUV that you can drive on rough trails and in the wilderness. Recently, there was a recall for some of these vehicles, which means that the company found a problem that needs fixing to keep drivers safe.
Term
instrument panel display
The instrument panel display is the part of the dashboard that shows things like how fast you're going and if there are any problems with the car. If it stops working, you might not know important information while driving.
Car
Ford Bronco Sport
The Ford Bronco Sport is a smaller version of the Bronco, made for people who want an SUV that can handle both city driving and some off-road adventures.
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Dad, I thought we'd do something a little different
on today's show.
You know, usually we talk about the news
and spend time on that.
I thought we'd talk about why car shopping in America
is broken and I thought we could take the time to actually
prove that out.
How does that sound to you?
Well, I love when you throw me a curve ball.
Let's see if I have major league potential
and I can handle that slow curve that you're throwing.
You want to change up?
You want the curve ball?
Sounds like you're going to get the curve ball.
Dad, here's the deal.
A year ago, I emailed 104 dealers
to get the price for the same vehicle.
We made a video about it and it went kind of viral.
Over a million views, which is incredible.
We emailed 104 dealers asking for out-the-door pricing
on pretty much the same vehicle that they had
in stock nationwide.
We're gearing up to do round two of that.
So here's the spreadsheet.
We're going to be reaching out
to 104 dealerships here this week,
trying to get pricing on vehicles.
And what I want to show you just off the bat here, Dad.
Yes.
Is that we're targeting all the same make, model,
and trim with MSRP's between 64,500 bucks
and 65,500 bucks.
So they're all pretty much the same vehicle.
What you're looking at in this column,
the price column is the dealer advertised price.
And I've sorted it from lowest to highest.
So think about this for a second.
These are all the same MSRP vehicle.
Yet the lowest dealer advertised price
comes from dealership in Arkansas, Kavanaugh, Ford.
Advertising this vehicle for $46,550.
If I scroll down to the bottom here,
the highest advertised price is $64,705.
I'm not good at math,
but that's an $18,000 price difference
on the advertised price for the same MSRP, Ford F-150 XLT.
We'll dig into more of the data here.
We'll click through to some of the dealer websites
and look at this in a moment.
But Dad, how do you reconcile
that out of 104 F-150, 2025 Ford F-150 XLTs
with the same MSRP?
You have online advertised price differences
of $46,000 to $64,000 in $18,000 price gap.
Make it make sense.
Can't.
I can't.
I mean, you know, you want me to make it make sense.
Okay, it's retail automotive.
It is states not enforcing FTC
and state advertising regulations,
allowing dealers to manipulate the prices
that they advertise when they have no intention whatsoever
of selling the vehicle at that advertised price.
It's the manufacturers because of the franchise agreements
not having the ability to discipline dealers
for doing this.
And it is business decisions
that are made by dealership owners who say,
hey, if I can't lie to you, I can't sell you a car.
And it just seems to me that it seems to start at the top
where the dealer principle has to say,
we're going to figure out a legitimate way
to advertise our prices and to sell cars
without having to lie, cheat or steal to do it.
Let's look at a few of how these dealerships
merchandise their inventory.
So let me pull this back up on the screen.
So here's one of the dealerships, Dad.
Let me, okay, I'm allowing cookies.
We're at Southwest Ford.
Yes.
Get rid of the chat.
Okay, here we go.
2025 Ford F-150 XLT courtesy vehicle.
So maybe this has some miles on it.
Let's see here.
It would make me think that it was either a service loaner
or a demo.
I don't see anything that acknowledges that.
But they've got here, Dad, $15,822 in savings, 49, 198.
Yes.
MSRP, dealer discount, retail bonus cash.
Here's your price.
Check my conditional incentives.
So that's one advertisement.
Whoops, I only have this thing.
No, I like paying full price for my cars.
Here we go.
Ah, oh, I love that.
Hey, are you interested in a smart buy
or did you want to stick with the conventional dumb buy?
Now here's another one, Dad.
I'll pull it up on the screen.
TASCA Ford.
Yes.
Allow cookies, get rid of the chat, but okay.
64,905 total savings, 2750, 62,155 bucks.
Does this not just like scream?
I mean, if it's legitimate, which to be clear,
the reason we do this video,
it'll be out probably next week,
we're actually going to get out the door prices
from as many of these dealers
that it'll send it back to us as possible.
But I mean, where's TASCA Ford,
let me give you a second, TASCA Ford.
I will assure you the two that had the lowest prices
will never give you an out the door price.
So that's the interesting piece about this, right?
Because TASCA Ford's in Rhode Island,
the other one that had a really high selling prices,
this one here from Flood Ford,
which is also in Rhode Island,
they're trying to sell this thing at MSRP.
Why would you ever buy a car in Rhode Island
when, let me come back to my spreadsheet
and scroll back up here.
I don't know, let's look at this one in Nebraska,
just choosing a random one.
Okay, all right, a lot of cookies.
I don't want to save, oh my God, wait a second.
A lot of things going on, very much.
Why would I ever buy that vehicle in Rhode Island
when I could come to Nebraska
and get an $8,528 Woodhouse discount?
And then obviously I've got the trade assistance too
and the retail bonus cash that they're all adding up
for my $51,551 price point.
Like this is what's broken about buying a car in America.
We have that big of a price difference,
why would I ever buy in Rhode Island?
Because you want to help your local state economy?
No, dad, we are rational consumers, why?
This is because these websites are probably BS.
This will be what's so interesting
about that video that comes out next week.
How many dealerships actually give out the door prices
and then what is the actual out the door price
when you add on all the taxes and fees?
And I do wonder, dad, would these dealers
sell these cars out of state?
Because again, this list shows you,
this column right here, this is the dealer advertised price.
This is the vehicle's MSRP,
this is the dealer's advertised price.
Here's the state that the vehicle's located
and the dealership.
There's a tremendous spread here
of what dealers are advertising.
And so in answer to your question,
would some of those dealers sell to an out of state customer?
Perhaps, and perhaps some of the rebates
that are available, whatever the trade assistance
to was or that other, could be localized by zip code.
Because oftentimes, when I was one of the managers
at Accurate North Scottsdale,
not too far from California last time I checked,
our incentives that we had from Accurate
did not include California residents.
So, you know-
Ford is notorious for this too.
Ford is super notorious.
I mean, you could be in the same county
but have different zip codes and some Ford incentives.
They use a program called Vincent
and it's like highly, highly, highly specific.
So I could totally see that happening.
Yes.
But taking that away, you know,
let's say out of, that was $13,800 worth of savings
between everything.
Let's say 2,000 of that was geo-specific
so that somebody in Nebraska would qualify
but somebody from Rhode Island would not.
But that still would be significantly better and cheaper
than the price that the Rhode Island dealership
was showing even if that $2,000 disappeared.
So, listen, it's not that it,
buying a car in the United States
has been broken forever, okay?
And not just today, not just yesterday,
not just eight years ago when I was still in the business,
not 40 or 50 years ago when I started in the business,
it's been broken from day one.
And why do I say that?
Well, when cars first came out, cars and trucks,
they didn't have Monteroni labels,
they didn't have price stickers.
It was the price of the vehicle was based upon
the enthusiasm of the customer.
If the customer was enthusiastic,
they were paying more than the customer who was not.
So it's been broken from day one
and then many of the creative people
that work in retail automotive
have figured out other ways to break it even more
and even further.
And then with the advent of the internet,
well, the level of creativity soared even more.
And that's when dealers began to realize,
okay, let's apply every rebate known to man,
let's not include the $2,495 destination fee
from the manufacturer and we're just gonna advertise
a price that seems, well, way too good to be true.
Only because it's way too good to be true,
but the truth of the matter is so many buyers out there
want to be deceived because they know
it's too good to be true.
There was a dealer at the top of that list
that had that car for $46,000, okay?
And so how can a customer look at,
how can any rational human being look at that
and go, oh yeah, that's doable.
Oh sure, yeah, I bet you I could walk in there
with a check and just, you know,
I could be in and out in five minutes,
five days maybe ain't gonna happen in five minutes.
It's unfortunate though because they advertise these prices
and then it's huge let down.
That's what buying a car in the United States
has been and continues to be.
It's a huge let down when you actually go to the dealership
and try and take advantage of what you saw advertised
online, so much of it that does look like
those stacking of incentives.
I'll pull up another example here.
You know, there's the retail bonus cash.
Do you qualify?
Who knows?
Do you get the other retail bonus cash
for an additional $5,000?
Who knows?
The dealer discount, is it $7,500?
Well, not really when you add back in, you know,
the dock fees or the add-ons.
Is the trade assistance the additional $1,000?
Do I get that?
I don't know.
Like this advertisement makes it very confusing.
To be clear here, this other dealership that just says,
we're selling it at MSRP.
That's also lunacy in today's market.
Because you know, Ford has a massive oversupply
to do in 0% financing for 60 months.
How much more obvious does it need to be
that the dealers are gonna give deals on these things?
You should not be paying MSRP.
And then you look at this spreadsheet again.
This is advertised price, MSRP.
And just the spread here is astronomical.
I'm kind of curious here to look in Maryland really quickly.
Let's see, how does a Maryland dealership,
where we've seen the Maryland state's attorney general
be very aggressive?
Yeah, well, let's see.
How do they advertise?
Very aggressive, more aggressive
than other attorney generals.
But you know, is it very aggressive?
Who knows?
I mean, here's an example right here
that might not be legitimate or doable.
But at least there's a term there that says conditional rebates.
Ask if you qualify.
I like that, yeah, I like this a lot.
Yeah, you know, they're encouraging you
to find out if you might qualify for the others.
So that would make a rational person
look at the first bottom line
with the discount and the rebates and go,
well, I guess anybody would qualify for that portion of it.
But will I qualify for any additional rebates?
And what would be interesting to know
is if, in fact, anyone would qualify
for the initial price discount
and rebates that they have listed.
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I am curious though, Dad,
if this conversation started to look at the data.
And again, this video will be out next week.
We're actually contacting all 100 of these Ford dealers
to get out-the-door price quotes,
how many actually give them what's the price difference
from what they had advertised, what they quote,
what's the price difference from the lowest to the highest?
Because again, it's the same freaking MSRP vehicle
nationwide that we're reaching out on.
So it's a really interesting, I don't know,
like science experiment that we do once a year.
And again, we did it last year.
Thank you to everyone who watched this video.
Got over a million views, emailing 104 dealers
to get the price of the same car.
We're gonna do the same title, same video,
just a new model year.
And I'm gonna be curious to see that.
I am curious to see.
Because buying a car in a different state
end up saving you a boatload of money.
And I think the answer is probably yes.
There are gonna be some areas of this country
where dealers just do not deal.
And then there are gonna be other areas of this country
where dealers are like, screw it.
We gotta get rid of this stuff.
We're gonna get clean out-the-door price quotes.
It's gonna be an aggressive price.
And it will further validate the need to do online
research before you actually walk into a dealership.
Heck, it'll probably prove that you don't need
to walk into a dealership to get the best deal.
I do have a question for you.
And I don't know if you remember the answer
off the top of your head.
But from having done that last year,
do you remember what the percentage of dealers it was
that A, even answered your email,
and then B, of those who answered
how many actually provided an out-the-door number?
Let's see.
Because that would further show just how broken
the system is for selling cars in this country.
Yeah, I mean, this was last year's spreadsheet.
So we got 13 responses.
Out of a hundred.
Yeah.
Oh, wait, we got a few more.
We got 20 responses out of a hundred.
That sent you an out-the-door price or just responded?
Just responded.
Total out-the-door price was 12.
So 20% of the dealers that you contacted
actually responded to you.
80 dealers did not.
Did not deem a internet inquiry
asking about a specific vehicle in their inventory
as to what would that vehicle cost me?
They didn't take that inquiry seriously enough
to even respond to it.
And then only 12 dealers out of a hundred
said, well, let's take a shot and see
if we can find ourselves a deal here.
So that just tells you how poorly run
most dealerships are.
And I will say this till the day that I die.
Dealer ships reflect the thinking
and the actions of their owners.
If the sales staff and managers don't respond to an email,
it's because the owner doesn't care
that they do or don't respond to an email.
That the owner believes that if there's enough local people
that he can take advantage of over the lifetime
that he has the business,
that he doesn't have to concern himself
with people who are sending in emails
and things of that nature.
So it is, in my opinion, it always has been,
it always will be the culture of a dealership
as a direct reflection of the owner of a dealership.
And if the owner doesn't give a damn,
then his employees don't give a damn.
And if the owner is a crook,
then he's going to employ crooks.
And if the owner is like Earl Stewart in Florida
who wants to do things the right way,
then the dealership, like his dealership,
will do things the right way.
But there's just not enough of those dealers
who think that way, and that's the problem.
Just to call it out, there are also female operators,
female owners, so it's not just men
who run these dealerships and end up employing these tactics.
It's also women that run these dealerships
and employ these tactics.
So it's across the board here.
You've got bad actors, regardless of
if they're crotchety old men or crotchety old women,
they are out there.
They're crotchety young men and women.
They're crotchety middle-aged men and women.
You know, it has nothing to do with gender or age.
It has everything to do with how you want your staff
to treat your customers.
Yeah, I completely agree.
Now, Dad, let's turn our attention
to a different Ford problem child.
That would be recalls.
Last time we looked at the recall list,
I don't remember quite how many recalls Ford was up to.
Do you remember?
Oh, was it 132?
Something like that, 132, 134.
What do you think we're up to today, Dad?
It's right before Thanksgiving.
What do you think Ford is up to in terms of recalls?
And for those of you that are unfamiliar,
put guesses in the chat.
The prior full calendar year recall record
from the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration
was General Motors, and what was it, 69, 89,
something like that?
69 was the total number of recalls in a given year.
It was quite some time ago.
And Ford surpassed that early on in the year.
I'm going to guess in their quest
to regain their title as the recall leader,
because last year they lost it.
So I'm going to guess that they're up to 140.
That's what-
We are getting awfully close to 140.
I hate to tell you that you came up a little bit heavy-handed.
Dad, we're up to 138 recalls over at Ford.
36% of all recalls this year
for commercial and non-commercial vehicles
are Ford recalls.
So you've heard me say this before.
I'm not good at math,
but they have doubled the previous annual record
for the number of recalls in a given year.
So they didn't just smash it.
Okay, they doubled it.
This is like Joey Chestnut eating 120 hot dogs
at the Nathan Hot Dogs Eating Contest
as opposed to the 65 or 70 that he normally eats.
I mean, this is pure insanity
to produce vehicles
of such dubious quality
that you'll have had to issue big or small 138 recalls
and there's still five weeks left in the year.
Oh my goodness gracious.
Can we get to 140?
I'm betting we can.
Now, Dad, it's interesting.
We have a recent recall
and it's actually on the Ford Bronco.
What's interesting about this recall?
Sure, the magnitudes of scale are non-trivial.
I'll put it up on the screen.
200,000 of them.
There are 2025, 2026 model year Broncos and Broncos sports.
This has got an electrical system issue.
The instrument panel display fails,
but I'm so I'm fascinated here
because it's 2025s and 2026s.
I mean, it's not like we're talking old vehicles here.
These are brand new Ford Broncos
that are getting recalled.
200,000 of them.
229.
So you're telling me that their new-found attention
to quality control has allowed them to produce
229,000 Bronco and Broncos sports
in the 2025 and 2026 model year
that have had the been recalled already.
And at the same exact time, Dad,
I don't know if you saw this,
but Ford CEO Jim Farley came out and said, quote,
we're in trouble because we have 5,000 mechanic jobs
that are currently unfilled.
They're paying over $120,000 a year
for these mechanic roles.
There's a mechanic shortage at Ford dealerships in Ford.
It's like an incredible one-two punch, right?
You've got too many recalls and not enough mechanics.
And do you know why there's a mechanic shortage?
Because if you're tasked with doing warranty work,
it doesn't pay as well as retail work.
Okay?
Ford controls to a certain degree
how much the warranty payments are going to be.
And so it is harder for a mechanic
to beat book time
when it's warranty involved
because the hourly pay is less
than if it was a retail labor rate.
Plus, there is a shortage of mechanics on top of things.
But yes, there's issues.
We all have issues.
And you know what?
I mean, I knew techs that were making $150,000, $180,000 a year,
but they were really good at what they did.
They could beat book time.
And what do I mean by that?
Mechanics get paid off of the time a job is supposed to take.
So if, after all the studies,
the book time for a given job say is three hours.
And say the mechanic has done so many of those jobs
and becomes so proficient at those
that he can do them in one and a half hours.
Well, he gets paid for three hours worth of work
only having done one and a half.
So that's how techs can make quite a bit of money.
But you're also looking at the techs going,
hey, we guarantee you there could be 140 recalls this year.
And so a lot of your work is going to be based
at reduced compensation
because what we're going to collect from Ford
is going to be less than what we collect on a retail basis.
Super interesting.
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All right, now let's come here to the chat.
We've had some thoughtful contributions come in
from Matthew.
Thank you for this, Matthew.
Ski season is here.
Can't wait to see Ray out there.
Dad, you never skied.
You were never a skier.
No, that is not true.
When I was courting your mother,
your mother loved to ski.
I had never skied.
At that time, I was managing Admiral Neeson
in Pleasantville, New Jersey.
And I said, okay, I'm going to go skiing
with my future wife.
And so I took one of our King Cab 4x4 pickup trucks
and we drove from the Jersey Shore up to the Poconos
and your mother tried to teach me how to ski.
I fell one time as the chairlift was coming to pick me up
and I was certain the damn thing was going to decapitate me.
And so they graciously stopped it before it could.
That was the only time I skied.
And I remember your mother saying,
well, you took me skiing when we were dating.
And I said, yeah, we were courting.
I got you now, I'm not doing that shit.
I'm not doing that stuff again.
And so, yeah, not the best way to live your life
as a husband, but yeah, I did ski once.
All right, thank you for this as well, Matthew.
Appreciate it.
Top's $10,000 off must be disabled,
blind, pregnant, active duty,
first responder teacher with loyalty
and conquest credits and 800 FICO,
not all will qualify.
You could be.
I love that, Matthew.
You can have a future in retail automotive.
And we've got here, Dad, from Jewel On Demand.
Thank you for the kind contribution.
Is it hard to get a deposit back
if you decide you don't want the car
you put a deposit on?
Well, it depends.
You need to have everybody agree
that if you don't like the car when it comes in
that you can get your deposit back.
And so that should be written on the buyer's order
when you place the order.
It should be signed by both you
and one of the sales managers
or the general manager at the dealership.
I can tell you what some of the dealerships I work for
if you ordered a vehicle
and it was built to your specifications.
If it came in and you decided you didn't want it,
you were not getting your deposit back.
We were holding that deposit as a credit
towards whatever future purchase you decided
to make it any of our sister dealerships
or the dealership where you left the deposit.
So it depends.
You need to get it in writing so that you know.
All right, folks, that's a show for today.
We're back with more Car Edge live tomorrow,
12 p.m. Eastern 9 a.m.
Pacific Pops, enjoy the afternoon
and thanks for doing this as always.
Yo, you two handsome.
It was a pleasure sharing whatever the heck it is we share today
with the good folks out there.
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About this episode
Car shopping in America is riddled with inconsistencies and deceptive practices, as revealed by a recent study where 104 dealerships were contacted for pricing on the same vehicle. The hosts discuss the staggering price differences, sometimes reaching up to $18,000 for identical models, and the lack of transparency in dealer advertising. They explore the systemic issues within the automotive retail industry, including the failure of dealerships to respond to inquiries and the implications of state regulations. The conversation highlights the need for better consumer awareness and the challenges of navigating the car buying process.
Original notes
Today on CarEdge Live, Ray and Zach discuss the absurdity that is buying a car in America. Tune in to learn more! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com
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CarEdge Live
Ray and Zach Shefska, Bleav
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