CarCast+Edmunds - All about the new Rivian R2
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Brand
Rivian
Rivian makes electric trucks and SUVs that are designed for outdoor adventures. They use batteries instead of gas engines to power their vehicles.
Car
Rivian R2
Car
Rivian R2
The Rivian R2 is a new electric car made by Rivian. It's smaller and cheaper than their first trucks and SUVs, and it helps Rivian compete with other electric cars like Tesla's Model Y.
Car
Tesla Model Y
The Tesla Model Y is a small electric SUV made by Tesla. It is very popular because it can go far on a charge and has lots of cool technology.
Term
EV space
The 'EV space' means all the companies and products related to electric cars and trucks.
Term
chief creative officer
The chief creative officer is the person in charge of how the company's products look and feel, like the design of cars.
Term
AI companies
AI companies work on smart computer programs that can learn and do tasks, like helping cars drive themselves or robots work better.
Term
all-wheel drive
All-wheel drive means the car can send power to all four wheels at the same time, which helps it drive better on slippery or rough roads.
Term
horsepower
Horsepower is a way to measure how strong a car's engine is. More horsepower usually means the car can go faster or accelerate quicker.
Car
Toyota 4Runner
The Toyota 4Runner is a type of SUV that is good for off-road driving and has plenty of space inside.
Term
aerodynamics
Aerodynamics is about how air moves around a car. If a car is designed well, it can move through the air easier, which helps it use less energy and go faster.
Concept
vehicle weight reduction
Making a car lighter helps it use less energy and drive better. Car makers try to reduce weight to make their cars faster and more efficient.
Car
Rivian R1S
The Rivian R1S is a big electric SUV made by Rivian. It's heavier and bigger than the newer, smaller R2 model.
Term
two-row
Two-row means the car has two sets of seats, usually for four or five people to sit in.
Car
Rivian R1
The Rivian R1 is a bigger electric car with three rows of seats. It was designed after the smaller R2 and is heavier.
Term
light bar
A light bar is a long line of lights on the front or back of a car that helps it look unique and be seen better.
Term
two-box design
Two-box design means the car looks like it has two big parts: one where people sit and one for carrying stuff, making it look box-shaped.
Term
aero wheels
Aero wheels are special car wheels shaped to help the car move through the air easier, saving energy.
Car
Rivian R1T
The Rivian R1T is an electric pickup truck made by Rivian. It's their first big vehicle and can drive off-road using electricity instead of gas.
Concept
software and hardware updates
Sometimes cars get better after they are sold by updating their computer programs or parts. This helps fix problems or add new things to the car.
Term
teething trouble
When a new car comes out, it sometimes has problems at first. These early issues are called teething troubles and usually get fixed over time.
Car
BMW X3
The BMW X3 is a small luxury SUV that drives well and has a nice inside. It's a popular choice for people who want a sporty but practical car.
Car
Mercedes-Benz GLC
The Mercedes-Benz GLC is a fancy small SUV that is comfortable and has a nice interior. It's a popular luxury car for families and daily driving.
Concept
EV write-offs
Sometimes car companies lose a lot of money or stop making certain electric cars because they don't sell well or cost too much. This is called a write-off.
Concept
supercar
A supercar is a very fast and expensive sports car that is special and rare. Car makers can make a lot of money selling these cars because they cost so much.
Brand
Porsche
Porsche is a famous car company from Germany that makes fast and fancy cars. They are working on electric cars too.
Car
Mercedes-Benz S-Class
The S-Class is a fancy and comfortable car made by Mercedes-Benz. It's known for having lots of cool features and being very smooth to drive.
Car
Mercedes-Benz E-Class
The E-Class is a smaller luxury car from Mercedes-Benz that is comfortable and good for everyday use.
Car
Mercedes-Benz EQE
The EQE is a fully electric car from Mercedes-Benz. It looks like their regular E-Class but runs on batteries instead of gas.
Concept
oversupply in EV market
Sometimes, car companies make more electric cars than people want to buy. This makes them lower prices to sell the extra cars.
Term
oil crisis
An oil crisis happens when there isn't enough oil or it gets very expensive. This makes gas cost more and people look for other ways to fuel their cars.
Term
plug-in hybrid
Plug-in hybrids are cars that can be charged by plugging them in, like an electric car, but they also have a gas engine for longer trips.
LIVE
Hello, welcome to CarCast. Before we get started, a word from our friends at FanDuel. The action
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Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Here with Alistair Weaver just got back from Texas at
South by Southwest. Alistair, how are you doing? Not good, mate. I told you I'd give you an honest
answer if you ask me. You can probably hear in the background my four-year-old screaming.
This weekend was supposed to be like a chill weekend after a week in Texas with Rivian.
My four-year-old's got streps so I've been in and out of urgent care,
tele-dog, everything else. I haven't left the house. It's been miserable. Well, I haven't left
the house to go to see the doctor. You just got back Saturday or Friday night?
I got back Friday night so we were recording this Sunday night because I was on a plane on Friday.
Yeah, I spent three days at South by Southwest with Rivian, which was really interesting. I
had a really interesting interview with RJ Scaring, who's the CEO of Rivian, which I think we're
really, really fun couple of days in South by Southwest. Austin's a fun city. South by Southwest
is a weird sort of mix of tech meets music meets the movie and TV industry. Yeah, lots of great
people watching, but yeah. Yeah. All right, so let's get into it. Just a quick reminder,
CarCast is brought to you by BioProPlus. This is the treatment that I've been taking. You've
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you $100 off your first time for subscribers and then we offer a 100% no commitment guarantee. So
you can cancel anytime for any reason. It's bioproteintech.com slash CarCast. Did you bring
some with you? I think I mentioned last week I've had sort of facial surgery on my like a
gum transfusion, which I wouldn't wish on your worst enemies. So tomorrow hopefully I get the
stitches out and I can get back to training. If you have a gum injury, who knows that who knew
that you've not allowed to train. So there you go. Yeah. Okay. Well, you can get back on it.
Good week. It's certainly been an interesting week for sure. Surgery, the travel, come home and
your wife's like, here you go. Here's a sick kid. Good luck. Yeah, here's a sick kid. Good
luck. Good luck with that. All right. So Rivian R2, this is probably one of the more anticipated
vehicles for the year. I think it's an important vehicle for Rivian now that the R1 has been out
for a while and the dominance of Tesla with Model Y, not to mention so much backtracking with so many
companies. So there's actually a lot to unpack in the EV space as we move forward. But let's just
get into a little bit of your trip out there, how that was and meeting with the guys from Rivian.
Because you were also, this is a follow up to you visiting their headquarters here in Irvine,
California. That's right. So if you were listening last week, I went out to Rivian HQ in Irvine, had
a good look around the R2, spent some time with Jeff Hamoud, who's a great guy. He's the chief,
think his official title is chief creative officer, but basically chief designer to you and I,
and has been with Rivian from the beginning. So design the R1 T and R1 S or him and his team did.
And now the R2 and the R3 to follow. And then was out in Texas this week, which was the official
unveil of the car. And there was a whole bunch of other Rivian senior leaders out there, including
RJ Skirinju, who was the CEO. Not just a Rivian these days, he's also got interesting AI companies
and robotics and all sorts of things. So a bit more approachable even on Musk, I think in many ways.
Yeah, okay. But it's a really interesting vehicle. I mean, this Rivian has had its
challenges as a business. It really needs this product to succeed. But this is, you know,
people talk about make or break vehicles and maybe to some extent it is, but this is the
vehicle that should hit home. It's going to start eventually at about 45 grand. That cheaper model
is going to come later next year. The launch model in typical fashion is more expensive. That's
pushing 60, including destination. But it offers a lot for the money. It's a 656 horsepower all-wheel
drive. It's got tons of kit. It's going to have decent autonomy in the not too distant future.
And it's a good size. Its footprint is basically the same as a Tesla Model Y. But the wheelbase is
elongated. So the wheels are shoved out to each corner. And it's actually got a long wheelbase
and something like a Toyota 4Runner. And what that means is there's actually really good space
inside. As you know, I'm 6'4". I can sit behind myself comfortably. Good trunk space, decent size
front as well. So the packaging is really good. And what I think they've done successfully, which
Tesla recently has struggled with, is sort of creating a smaller, cheaper vehicle without
making it feel like a kind of bargain basement alternative. The entry-level Model Y feels a
bit cheap. This, I think they've done a really good job of still making it feel like a premium product.
Yeah, we're going to click through some of the images as well as we're going through some of the
specs. I mean, it looks like a smaller version of the R1. But there was definitely a bunch of little
changes that were done to just improve, you know, just change up the stance and change the look,
keep it aggressive, looking, improve aerodynamics. I would imagine with the current model being out
for several years now, one of the things that's come up in conversation with so many companies,
Ford has been outspoken about it going, we may have over-engineered a bunch of our EVs, right?
So now we need to reduce weight, improve aerodynamics. Was that something that they
brought up with the R2? I mean, the R2, because the R1 is really heavy, right?
That's right. And I did actually speak to, I spoke to Chief Engineer Max, and I forgot his surname,
but I had some time in Texas with him. And he's also, I think he was like employee number four
or something. So he's been with Riviera the whole journey as well. And I was asking that very
question. I mean, the R2 weighs about just over 2,000 pounds less than the R1S. But then so it
should, because it's a much smaller vehicle. It's a two-row, not a three-row. And I was talking
about like how much weight, because that seems like the big thing at the moment, how much mass
can you drag out of these EVs? And he seemed pretty confident that they learned an awful lot
from the R1 to the R2. And they were going to learn again for the R3, which will be smaller
still. So it is lighter, which helps everything, as you know. So that's willing. Now the styling,
they were quite open about the fact that the, well, they actually said that they
designed the R2 first, like the way it looked. So sort of scaled up the R2 to create the R1,
rather than the other way around. And you put them, yeah, which is interesting. And they were
quite open the fact that every Rivian needs to look the same, because outside of certain coastal
areas, including one that I live in, you don't see many. So you need to be able to recognize the
brand from a distance, those very distinctive headlights with the light bar that spans the
width of the nose. That is very distinctive. I think they've done a good job. And at the back,
you get the same, you know, same broad light bar with a big Rivian branding. If you get
close, though, there's a lot of quite clever detail work with this car. Jeff is showing me the headlights
and they look the same. But on the R2, they're actually a little bit wider and a little bit
shorter, which helps to give it a more sort of like athletic aesthetic. And then when you get to
the rear of the car, it looks boxy. But there's quite a lot of clever arrow detailing going on.
The rear shoulders, same on a Range Rover, basically, to help with airflow, but the rear
horns just kind of like tapered in towards the tail. But also then the roof line actually
dips below a little spoiler built in. Yeah, that's super interesting, because you don't really see
it at first glance, because they wanted to keep this kind of upright aesthetic, this sort of
two box, as they call it, two box design. But there's a lot of stuff going on. I mean, they're
even telling me that the design of the alloy wheels. And I said, look, you haven't got aero wheels on
here, presumably there's more stuff you could do to make it more aerodynamic. And they said, yeah,
there is. And tires make a big difference, scale makes a big difference. But when you get into
the mine new shy, there's actually quite a lot you can do. So the, the, the alloy wheel rims are
actually shaped to be aerodynamic and to channel the airflow. And he said, even the shoulders of
the tires makes a significant difference to the airflow and how ultimately, you know, how far
it'll go on a single charge, if EV range, which of course is critical. So when you get closer,
there's a lot of really clever detailing, which I think is really interesting. I mean, as there is
with most modern cars, but it's, yeah, it's good to see.
You know, the, the, the bit about the back with sort of that little wing up at top,
when that, that caught my attention a few years ago, talking to Ian Callum when he was at Jaguar,
when the eye pace came out, which now we see them, they're way most all over town.
He's got this little, you know, the eye pace, this little electric SUV type thing. And I asked him,
why no rear wiper? And he was like, oh, because he has a similar kind of design that it slopes
down and has kind of a wing on it. And that directs flow. He goes, so when the vehicle's moving,
it blows air off the back of the rear window. So you don't need a wiper there and allowed him to
sort of clean up the rear end and go, Hey, we don't, we don't need it there. And I'm looking at the R2
and it maybe we're just looking at, I don't know if these are all photos or not, but
looks like they're not having a wiper on there either. No, they are. They are. I didn't see it
in some of the photos. What do you mean? You didn't watch my video? I didn't see the full video yet
now. No, if you look at the rear window, what they've done is to hide the wiper to effectively the
top of the door trim where the door trim meets the rear window. And they've done that not just,
I think, for aesthetic reasons, but also because on the upper trim models, at least the rear window
descends into the back of the door like it does in a Toyota 4 or like it did in a Fisker.
Okay. So if the whole glass descends into the rear door, what do you do with the wiper? So they've
had to mount the wiper in the door frame. Yeah. So it's quite a novel solution.
It's a cool creative design because you're right. The wiper now is mostly in the middle of the glass
down low on a lot of SUVs. But if you have a retractable window, it's tough to pull that off.
I don't know what happens when you debris or dirt gets in there. It looks like it'd be a trap for
stuff. But yeah, I've seen the rear window in action. It doesn't, it does go all the way.
It's not one of these that just kind of dips a little bit. So and hopefully it's not like the
original Land Rover Freelander where they went down but didn't always come back up again. So
that's a nice feature. It's not quite as good as a Fisker. Fisker had like all the windows
disappeared and that kind of California mode, but the Rivian doesn't do that. But it does feel a lot
a lot more kind of thoroughly sorted than the Fisker. Right. And then the R2 I imagine has a
number of fun little like Easter eggs and things like that, like they put into the R1, the pass
through storage tunnel and things like that. But they must be doing something that stands out
that they I'm sure they were proud to talk about. Yeah, I think the tech's interesting because,
you know, you always have this challenge when you bring out the cheaper model next,
because also the technology is moving so fast. So they were quite open that the
on the digital space side of things, the hardware and the software are a generation
beyond the R1s. And I think it's going to be the end of the year before the R1 catches up with the R2.
So the the infotainment screen and everything else is really good. It's super responsive.
The software has been updated. You don't get Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, they're going their own
way. But now you've got the apps like Spotify. It's probably not the the issue it first was
and all the gap all the mappings by Google. They've also got this really interesting.
It looks like two Oreos tipped on their side. And they built these kind of little digital wheels
on the steering wheel and you can program to do different things. And they were telling us that
they they asked the concierge, you know, their owners, what what do you want to do? You know,
what what do you want physical controls for rather than a touchscreen? And they basically came set
back and said volume, temperature and fan. And you can program these little wheels to do that
out of play with them. They've got this kind of haptic control in them so they you can change
how they feel depending on what function they're doing. So it's a clever little novelty, which
on the face of it works well. It's going to be interesting to spend proper miles behind the
wheel and get a get a proper sense of it. But I like what they're doing inside. They've got a
central screen like a Tesla, but then they've also got another screen in front of your eyes,
which means you don't have to have a head up display system. But again, you're not taking
your eyes off the road like you're on a Tesla to see how see how fast you're going. And the other
thing that they've done, which they weren't brilliant on the R1S and R1T is is sort of
interior storage. So they've got two gloveboxes didn't have one on the original one. They've
got I got two gloveboxes. They've got like additional little pulley out trays. There's
there's a lot going on in the cabin to make it easier to live with. And one feature,
in particular, the original R1S, I remember like the wireless charging was rubbish. And your phone
used to slide around. Yeah. Now they've got MagSafe technology. I'm amazed that more people aren't
doing that. So you've probably seen Apple and Android do it, don't they? Where we have like
little magnet system and it holds your phone in place. So they've got that now. So that's that
seems so smart. I don't know why so many are doing that. And you're right. So the charging pad in
cars is in so many vehicles and we drive so many is, you know, you you you spend so much money on
a phone, you're going to put some sort of case onto it. And almost every one of the charging pads in
the cars that we drive like heats up and overheats the phone and turns the, you know, the charging
on and off. And it just it doesn't work nearly as good as like any home charger. I have a home
charger that is like you're talking about. It's MagSafe. You can just stick your phone on it sideways
or lay it down flat, sticks on there, charges great, goes into its like trickle mode at night,
like it does all the great stuff. So it's it seems like it's easy to do. And I just I just think
they're just going for the cheapest version they can get trying to save a couple pennies.
But so it's nice to hear that they're coming up with something that works better.
And it was a big conversation I had with with the guys at Rivian, like how do you
decontent the car? You know, it's it's we've seen it. We talked a lot about like Chevy's
plastic steering wheel on the Equinox EV. And it's like it's just crap. It's just rubbish.
And you know, Rivian's thing like you can't have the same, you know, you can't have the same materials.
You can't have, for example, like the R2 doesn't have a suspension, you just couldn't
couldn't afford it. But on the performance, it does have electronic damping. So they're
having to make compromises. It doesn't do quite as much trick of the off road stuff or some of
the roll stabilization stuff. So you know, there are compromises, but it was interesting inside,
like where do you take the money out? And if you remember, in the R1S, there's like a cool
Bluetooth speaker that you can pull out of the center console and take, you know, take it outside
the vehicle, take it camping or whatever. They had to get rid of that. But they have kept an
apparently there's a lot of internal debate. Rivian's little signature when you open the door
is like a little pop out torch. Yeah. So it's really like Rolls Royce has its umbrella. This
is a little pop out torch that comes out the doorframe. And it's not cheap to do. And there's
a lot of debate about it. But apparently they were like, this is so like inherent to the brand
that we're going to spend some money and we're going to keep it. So that's that.
You say torch, it's not a flamethrower that Elon Musk was selling. This is a flashlight.
This is a flashlight. I'm sorry. Is that a British? Is it quite a torch?
Yeah. Not often. It's not. It's not as common. Flashlight is more common.
A flashlight, even though it doesn't flash.
Well, right. But also sometimes they do. Because now they're, there's different.
So you can have the Olympic torch, but that's a flame. Whereas like the thingy.
What about on your iPhone? Isn't that a torch? No, that's a flashlight. It's actually called
flashlight on the iPhone. Is it? Yeah. Maybe mine's still in English. I don't know.
Um, let's move on. So they got rid of, so what are we? They got rid of the, uh,
whatever you call it, but they kept the thing in the door.
They got rid of the speaker. They kept the flashlight.
They kept the flash. And then there's other stuff that I think they've done,
done quite fun that the rear, they're good at the brand stuff that you can fold down the
rear seats. And it's nice that you've got like 20, 40, 20, 40 splits. So if you want to throw
skis in or something like that, you can drop the middle section, something like the Lexus GX
doesn't do that, which is really annoying. Um, and they reckon like a six foot two man,
six foot two person can, can lay out in the back when the seats are down and they'll even
sell you like a special mattress to fit. I tried it. I'm six four and I could sort of sleep diagonally.
But again, there's like a little bit of fun element. They'll sell you a roof 10 and it's
about five grand, but they'll do a roof tent for it. They've got like a special camping stove.
They're good at like the little surprisingly light little lifestyley stuff. Yeah. Now he's
got a desirability about it. This car that I think, you know, the model Y is so ubiquitous.
Now I say in the video that, you know, you, you're not going to get picked up in an R2 Uber
anytime soon. I don't think that's absolutely right. You know, there are sell, if Tesla sells
what nearly a million across the world last year, 400,000, nearly 350, 400,000 in the US.
So they are so ubiquitous to certainly in areas of California. Yeah. That, you know,
the R2 is going to be that little bit different. I think it's, I think it's cool. It's desirable.
Um, it's going to have a range of different options. So the launch one will be performance
with launch package, two motors, 656 horsepower. I'm just looking at my notes. Then later on this
year, there'll be the premium version with 450 horsepower. And then next year there'll be like
a standard long range and a standard ultimately a two wheel drive version. All of them with the
exception of the entry level should be around over 300 miles of range. Uh, you can have all wheel
drive, then only the cheapest one will be, will be rear wheel drive. So there's a lot, it's a sensible
package. I mean, that lines up with Tesla that lines up with kind of where the market is over 300
miles, you know, super quick performance. They're claiming zero to 60 in 3.6 seconds, but others
with rollout on the performance. So let's see how fast it really goes. And again, starts with the
performance this spring, end of the year, we'll have the premium, which might be the sweet spot of
range. Then you'll end up with the standard long range and the standard to follow. So there was a
bit of fuss. Wall Street was unhappy that Rivian wouldn't have the cheapest ones first. Yeah.
And the share price dipped a bit, but the reality is they've got to ramp production. You know,
they've got to build production. Eventually they want to produce, you know, they're hoping to sell
tens of thousands of these every year in the US. Yeah, it's not going to be like a model. It's not
a volume vehicle. You know, I get that the stock market is going, oh, we want to see the cheaper
one so you can get massive sales. But honestly, for them to do fewer vehicles as they ramp up
that production, but do the premium versions, which usually have better margins on them,
a little bit more profitable, it allows them to pace themselves, try to avoid mistakes,
and roll out the more profitable version before you start making less money and rely on volume.
I don't necessarily agree with Wall Street. Like I get it, but what they're doing, but I think
that's a little naive because they're not doing anything that any other company wouldn't do and
go, listen, let's launch our nice launch edition or whatever. And not to mention, get the buzz around
the vehicle, get, you know, get all the initial tests, get all the initial reviews and everything
on the nicest one out there, right? And then the cheaper version we can evaluate later and go,
listen, you know, you save five grand, you save 10, 15 grand. Is it worth it? Where are they cutting
it? And go, you know, it's probably worth it or maybe not. Yeah, I had a look in the design studio,
see this, if you watched a video on our YouTube channel, they had a design book with the standard
interior. And it honestly didn't feel massively cheaper. They've lost the wood, some of the wood
trim, but you keep the fabric, which is nice. And then on the rear, on the like front seat back,
it hasn't had some fabric wrap, but it has this kind of galactic looking plastic, which again,
didn't feel so cheap. Yeah. And I took a look and I was like, this is fine. Like, and they say,
you know, it's still 45 grand, it's still, you know, it's still an, it's still a lump of cash.
But it felt much better than a Tesla Model Y standard, where you feel like they've nickel
and dined everything. So, and the other thing about it is, you know, they, the R1 T when it was
launched, had quite a few, you know, it was Rivian's first vehicle, Edmunds bought one.
We had a quite, you know, there's quite a few updates to both the software and the hardware.
So I think, you know, getting into the market with the, with the launch tradition,
sort out some of that teething trouble, which everybody has. Yeah. And I think this second
generation car will be better than the first. They've learned so many lessons, but still,
you know, they've got to, they've got to ramp it up and make it work. But it was,
it's interesting because I think they've, I was looking at, they had a big thing on the wall
about all the different rivals, GLCs, BMW X3s, then, you know, some of the more off-road focused
vehicles as well. And, but, you know, they need to conquest not just from Tesla Model Y, but also
from, you know, gas part alternatives. And it was kind of ironic that they were launching this
vehicle in, you know, in a week where everybody else was cancelling everything. And you'll hear
in the interview with RJ next week, you know, it was like, everybody else just cancelled. And
there was Honda had just said, we were cancelling the, the zero cars and we're writing off 15 billion
or whatever it was, 16 billion or something. And I said, you know, there is a, there is a counter
at the moment. And this year alone, there's been over $70 billion worth of write-offs and
manufacturers saying we're pulling back on EVs, we're cancelling those, we're cancelling that.
The Honda news I thought was extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary. That blew me away.
And, you know, the other car company has been talking about this for a little while now, but I
mean, Porsche, which was such a profitable company, 911 had just, you know, just every option you
throw on it is just cash in their pocket. And they're nervous, they're struggling, they're like,
what are we going to do? Our EV agenda was terrible and just, just didn't resonate with
customers. And now we've got to find ways to make that money back and maybe a new super car, which
is, you know, super high margin potentially could be super high margin if it's a multimillion-dollar
car. You know, it's just, it's pretty crazy how they went from being so flush with cash to now
being super nervous. Well, that their hypercar was supposed to be electric and that's not,
not happening. It is, it is an incredible time. I was just going down the list before coming on
air of like everything that's been cancelled recently. I mean, I went to, to CES, the consumer
electronics show a couple of years ago with Honda, which was their big announcement of zero. And
it's like, this is going to be a higher margin vehicle. It's going to be slightly more expensive,
slightly rebrand of Honda. I mean, I thought they looked fantastic. If people remember,
they were the ones that look a bit like a Lamborghini Gallardo at the front. I was really
excited about it. You know, they were trying to do software-defined vehicles. It was going to be
this, it was going to be that. And they've invested billions and billions. And then, you know,
they were supposed to go on sale, be built in America, debuting later this year. And they've
pulled the plug, which, you know, for a company like Honda to just walk away from it and write the
money off, I, I was blown away, absolutely blown away by that decision because, you know, what
happened? Because you're right, they didn't go, we're not doing all of the lineup. We're going to
do one version. It's going to be sort of a hodgepodge of everything that we talked about or a small
SUV or something, but they're like, no, all those things we talk about, everything's gone.
All the money we spent at CES, everything we told you, forget it.
And even last November, they were talking it up. The Acura's gone, the Honda's gone.
They are basically no EV. And the only EV they have is Prologue, which is that GM,
basically a GM car. So like, you know, Honda doesn't need your reactions. You know,
we saw that in Formula One, but it's, it's staggering. And then you go down the list,
you know, Porsche, as we know, like still trying to work out, you know, the box to Cayman, I don't
think they've actually come out and said they're definitely not doing it, but they're trying to
figure out what their strategy is. You know, Volkswagen ID buzz. Everybody thought that's
been canned for this year, this year at least. Obviously, Ram cut the electric truck. Ford's
decided he's doing something with different, with the Lightning. It barely goes. Maserati's cut
the, it just, whether you're not just mistake with the charger going from like this massive
cash cow selling vehicle charger and Challenger. It was just like, they haven't really invested
much money in that platform. And they just milked that thing for like a decade, decade and a half.
I don't know how long that those vehicles were out for. And it was just making money and making
money for them. And then they're just like, no, it's electric. And everyone's like, good luck.
Would they sell 15? I read it. I read an interesting thing on, I know, you know,
you should normally talk up sort of rival publications of the public, but I read an
interesting piece on inside EVs about, you know, where Honda is, and it basically leaves Honda
in the same bucket as Alfa Romeo in terms of not really having, you know, not really offering,
you know, offering this, this sort of car in the range. And it's sort of a strange
bad fellow to have it. So that I thought was extraordinary news. So this week Lucid also
came out with a, which will be an R2 rival eventually called the Cosmos and the Earth,
which are also like 50 grand. Let's hold that talk because I want to get into that and have a
car manufacturers as well. But let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.
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You mentioned Lucid because they had some announcements as well. But when we were talking
about, you know, Alfa Romeo, Porsche, Dodge and these car companies that were taking huge
ride offs, one of the ones I haven't seen so much in the news is what happened with Mercedes
strategy because Mercedes had like these, you know, they were all in on EVs and they were
getting good range. It's just people didn't really love the designs for this egg kind of bubbly
shape but understood like the arrow was there. And then I don't know, like there wasn't like a
big announcement unless I missed it. Where was the big announcement of Mercedes going,
we're not doing that anymore. We don't sell any of those cars.
I think the shift from Mercedes is not actually being, we're giving up on EVs,
it's just that we're hedging. So if you look at the CLA, for example, I think the CLA EV is just
won a couple of awards. We rate it really highly. It goes a long way on a single charge.
That's coming up, you know, it's about to be launched in the US. So I think Mercedes has
gone away from saying we're doing gas cars over here and EVs over here and they're doing the
BMW thing of saying, let's build, let's build a sedan or an SUV and make a gas version, a hybrid
version, electric version. So I think that feels as long as you can afford to do that,
because also bear in mind, EVs continue to march forward in Europe and, well, Europe,
it depends where you are in Europe. It's not clear picture. China, obviously, EVs are everything.
So it's, you know, they've got a sensible hedge on, BMW is continuing to push for the IX3,
looks a great vehicle, that's coming up soon. So I think in that sort of like luxury segmenting,
I think, you know, they've got an opportunity. Audi, I think, will do something similar. So
I think the Germans are kind of hedging a little bit. Mercedes is interesting because
I don't remember anything particularly bad about their EVs. They didn't have like a
flub launch going, oh, we launched it, we got a recon, nothing works and, you know,
doors don't shut right and software doesn't work. Like they're all seem to be decent vehicles.
I think they were like, all right. I think, like, I remember the EQS, I remember just,
I remember when we were going back to when it was launched, we were about to do the
Edmunds Top Rate Awards and it was about to come out and we're like, this is basic
electric S-Class, this is going to be mega. And I remember getting into it and going,
this really isn't. And it wasn't even about like refinement or performance, it was just that it
seemed to have taken so much money out of it. Like the rear headroom wasn't very good,
the quality of the plastics inside. I mean, we expected it to be better than an S-Class because
it's an EV and it's silent and all the rest of it. It just wasn't. And I think people just looked
at those early EQEs and EQS's and were like, well, you know, they're just not really good
enough as a product to make me want to switch out of gasoline because the S-Class is fantastic,
the E-Class is great. I do remember we had that conversation going, we were kind of expecting
an electric S-Class and you can see where they cut some corners. But it's not a terrible car and
there's an opportunity that I think a lot of people didn't get in the past is that was a
90, 100, $105,000 car that you can buy used with basically no miles, probably 30,000 miles on it
for 35 grand. Oh yeah, I was looking at, I was looking at one for myself, like,
you know, let the, actually, actually it was 35 grand, like an EQE or something makes a lot of
sense. You know, I mean, it was a hundred thousand dollar car, you know, you know, 18 months ago
and now like, whatever, three years ago and somebody's turning back a lease, I'm sure it was
maintained and driven nicely. It was never tracked, it's not a tracked car, it wasn't like beaten up
and you're going, oh, for 28 grand, 30, 35, 39 grand, it's like, for the, depending on the miles,
it's probably a pretty nice vehicle. I was actually looking at, you know, you're right and that's
also one of the conversations of having Rivian, you know, is how do you protect the residual
values? You know, what's this thing going to be worth in, you know, three years time? And the other
thing that's difficult at the moment for both Rivian and Lucid coming into the market is
everybody else has got into problems of oversupply or too much stock, whatever. So they're doing a
fire sale and they're just basically throwing money at the EVs and trying to make it back with
their gas cars. So, you know, Hyundai IONIQ 5, you know, I think it's just gone up from 199
to 230 a month here in California. Yeah. Cadillac Optique, which is a really nice car, like 350
a month. You know, so Rivian's going to come into the market and if they price it sensibly,
it's going to be 600, 700 a month on lease, something like that. You know, so that's a
problem for them because they're going to have to, they can't sort of hedge against their gas
cars. They're going to have to price it properly. And then, you know, that starts suddenly looking
like a lot of money, especially if you can buy a used EV, as you say, like a used EQE for 35 grand.
I mean, I was looking at one myself and then I thought, well, three years old, 35 grand,
that's a pretty good buy or something that will use to be 80 or 100 grand. But then in three years
time, I'm then getting close to the end of the warranty for the batteries, which is eight years,
I think. So then you're starting, well, what does that look like? What's the market going to look
like in three years time? So there's just a lot of uncertainty out there. And there is a feeling,
and I asked RJ about this and you'll hear it in the interview, is there a danger that the whole
EV thing just becomes like niche startups. So, you know, you're going back to the days where
it was actually the niche startups that were leading the market. So, you know, Rivian, Lucid,
although, you know, Lucid has certainly struggled to shift enough volume. And then, you know,
Tesla itself, everybody else is retreating rapidly. Yeah. You know, let's talk about Lucid,
what they're doing, but maybe a topic for another time and do some research into it is,
is I'm curious what these EV manufacturers planned is for the future of their used vehicles. I mean,
they're going to go, listen, if you need to buy a battery, it's going to be super expensive,
is there going to be an affordable option? Is it going to be some sort of recycle program? Because
we can't just have Tesla's all at the bottom of the ocean, you know, with batteries spewing out
chemicals. Like you just said a minute ago, they sold a million Model Ys around the world,
you know, in 10 years from now, where are those Model Ys going to be? And if they're still fine
and they're on the road, but are they on the road at 70% it's total range? Like.
No, I mean, that's the one big anomaly that they need to, you know, need to go because the reality
is it's not an iPhone, your battery's not dead after a couple of years of hard use. The battery's
actually super sophisticated and lasts a long time. So that's, you know, you don't, you do lose
a little bit of range, but not, you know, you might lose 10, 15%. You're not, it's not like
you're suddenly going 100 miles instead of 200. So there's a lot of like education still to do
with this. You know, and the other thing is, you know, we're currently sitting here in a situation
where oil prices are going, a skyrocketing. And one of the curiosities, we're like, we look at it
on Edmunds, we can see instantly how people are shopping and how behaviors change.
And we've seen a massive spike in interest in EVs. Interesting, other things like hybrids as well.
But suddenly everybody's saying, well, hang on a minute, if gas is going to cost me this and my
truck's going to be there, I can't afford my truck anymore. What else is out there? And whenever
there's an oil crisis, everybody looks to cheaper alternatives and that could be hybrid, plug-in
hybrid. But also you might see this sudden swing back to EVs because people are saying, well,
hang on a minute, I'm just going to charge you at home with electricity. It's now, instead of it
being, you know, marginally cheaper than a gas car, it's now a quarter of the price of a gas car
because the oil price has gone crazy. So, you know, it's like all these swings and then in three years
time, you know, let's say Newsom gets in and has a kind of eco-friendly agenda. What's Honda going
to do? Oh, you know, that thing we canceled three years ago and wrote all that money off.
Be quite handy. Can we dust it down? I mean, what are you doing?
I mean, this knee-jerk reaction from consumers is unfortunate. Like, you can't watch, you know,
two weeks of, you know, or a week and a half of gas prices going up and all of a sudden you're
rushing out to get rid of your car, buy a new car, you know, get rid of your gas engine car,
buy an EV, because who knows what's going to happen in another four weeks from now.
But I think the lesson learned from the manufacturers and hopefully from the government
is the government did this big push on EVs, forced the manufacturers to do this thing and
that turned into financial disasters we just talked about. So, I think there's going to be
some pushback for sure. The next time, let's say the administration changes and they go,
we're back to EV. We're killing gas engines. Every manufacturer is going to go, listen there,
big guy. Like, that costs us $15 billion. And, you know, in some companies bankruptcy,
the last time we had that conversation. So, this isn't going to go the way you think.
You could change all the rules you want. You're going to change those rules. But
we'd rather spend $2 billion on lobbying than $15 billion right off on terrible
investments. I think the great irony is I'm not sure that most of the manufacturers actually
wanted everything to be rolled back this far. You know, it's a bit careful what you wish for,
because they're global businesses and what they didn't want to end up in is a world where
they're selling kind of 1980s engines in America and then, you know, range extender EVs or something
for China. So, you know, that's not good either. What you just need is like sensible,
you know, sensible, consistent policies. And it's been like one extreme to the other.
Right. So, the pendulum swung real high up toward the EV side, right? And now it's swinging the other
way again. And it needs to start settling down and just sort of come down into the middle.
But what it did do was force some innovation, like you had just mentioned. One, it created
awareness for the public going, well, there's EV and there's hybrid and range extender. And what
does that mean? And now, before all of this, 10 years ago, it was just we're going after our
whole cafe standard. You know, we're doing 25 mile an hour mile per gallon, you know,
goal for the whole company. Then we want 30 miles per gallon. Then we want 35 miles per gallon.
That seemed like a stressful strategy at the time. But that's not a bad strategy to go back to,
because now the car companies go, well, we can do something here. We can do a few EVs and a handful
of hybrids and, you know, the variations now of range extender and plug-in hybrid and things
like that and go, now if we come out with several options, which was the one thing people hated
was having the option being taken away, going, you're going to be forced into an EV.
And people were like, I don't like that. I don't like you forcing my hand, especially when you're
asking us to buy something that's very expensive, you know, $50,000 plus. You want us to spend that
money and you're forcing us what to spend it on. It's insane. That was the big, that's the pendulum
swing going so far. Now we're going, listen, we, we're all going to go for 45 miles per gallon
as a company. Great. How are we going to do that? We're going to have a few sports cars,
some trucks, but we're going to do hybrids and EVs and, and all this technology to make it happen.
But anyway, so Lucid, like a sensible middle ground, like a sensible middle ground. Wouldn't
that be nice? It would be extraordinary. Yeah, it would be extraordinary. Lucid has been working on
several cars and then I'm just trying to figure out like, first of all, I mean, Lucid Air probably
released a little too soon, but then really started to get in some buzz with the Lucid
Sapphire or whatever being so fast. Yeah, I think the air was morphed eventually into, into, into
good car and, and the gravity, but the gravity, I know that, you know, they've got challenges of,
you know, they're, they're, I believe they sort of, there's a lot of talk and it's officially
confirmed by cutting back on production or even ceasing production for a while. So they're,
you know, they're, they're struggling a little bit to, to, to shift metal. And now they're,
they're coming out with the Cosmos and Earth, which are going to be sort of entry level cars.
But entry level is still around that 50 grand mark. So, you know, on a par with the R2,
Lucid's in a weird place at the moment. You know, they still haven't got a new CEO.
It's very reliant on, on, on the continuing investment of the, of the, of the Saudis.
So, you know, they just have never shifted the kind of volume. I mean, Lucid is, sorry, Rivian is
still, you know, it's still, depending on how you cut your accounting is still a, you know,
still making significant losses. You know, Lucid has nothing like the volume that Rivian does.
So, you know, they've got to get to a place where it becomes economic and,
sorry, excuse me. It's still going to, it's still going to take time and, you know, the Cosmos and
the earth are a step in that direction, but it's, I feel like Rivian, Lucid has got like a very clear
sense of who and what they are. They're an adventure brand. I joked in the video that, you
know, if Patagonia made a car, this would be it. They, you know, they know who they are and what
they're trying to do is, is just kind of grow that, that sort of adventure vibe. Lucid, yeah,
is a fantastic looking sedan, but hugely, you know, it's hugely expensive, certainly initially.
The gravity is this kind of like SUV meets slightly sort of minivan-esque feel about it.
Again, decent, decent vehicle. There's lots of things right. So, but you kind of struggle,
I struggle a little bit to understand exactly what Lucid is. I think I've got a clearer picture
of what Rivian's doing. Yeah, that's a good point. So they're struggling with some brand identity,
I think they're trying to figure out who their customer is. And then I think they were trying
to come out as a long, as a, as a, like a long range luxury brand and was, was tough. So then they
came out with these really good lease rates and lower priced items and versions of the vehicle.
That's just throwing money at the problem, yeah. Yeah. But right, they, they are losing,
they, they struggle to find what their identity is, what their market's going to be. And you're
right, I think there is better with Rivian from the get-go, right? And I think that's maybe one
of the advantages that Scout may have. Scouts having some issues with, you know, they came out
the gate going, we're going to make this electric, you know, truck, you know, and then they tease the
idea of a ranger extender. And then every single one of their customers and pre-orders was like,
we don't want the electric while we want the range extender. So, and now they delayed it. I mean,
there's still this, right? Because they're like, we're not exactly sure how we're doing that at
the time. And it's going to take more, I mean, the Scout, I mean, we're all assuming that Scout's
going to happen, you know, and you look at the Honda decision and think, is Scout, you know,
is Scout like absolutely nailed on? It's going to happen, you know, they've pushed it back.
And the other thing, of course, is Volkswagen Group has put four billion into Rivian,
and who is Scout's biggest rival? Rivian. So, yeah, and Volkswagen and Scout are the same,
you know, Volkswagen owned Scout. Yeah, it's Scout, it's Volkswagen under, it's a Volkswagen brand.
So, the Scout even need a pure EV version. At this point, if they can master
the range extender version of this vehicle, I don't even know if it financially makes sense
for them to even do the pure EV. If they just, I mean, look, the difference between the EV and
the range extender, it's still electric motors, it's an electric powered, big battery, and then
it's just on board generator. I'm simplifying it for sure, because they're struggling with
how to make it all work and talk to each other and work. But the idea of them going, we're going
to release the EV because we've done far more development on that. And hopefully we make a little
bit of money on that initial launch that we can get you the range extender versions of those vehicles
a year or two later, right? It's the same strategy of launching, you know, the high
performance version of the R2, pocket a little bit of money, and then bring us the, you know,
the lesser expensive versions. But they could run into a little bit of a Dodge Charger EV issue
going, we're going to launch the electric version first, nobody buys it because they know they want
the other one. And then they just wasted a bunch of money getting it out there, didn't earn any
that money back, and now they're underwater instead. Yeah, I doubt they will go with the
first for all those reasons. I like the Scout product, everything I've seen at Hamdream,
maybe I've seen a light where they're going. But yeah, and also if they launch with a range
extender, you know, these are all the rage in China. And we've got a geely in the office at the
moment I want to talk about on a future show because we're running it through the test track
tomorrow. But you know, that gives you a real differentiator, you know, this is a painless
EV, you don't have to worry about recharging and everything else. So that gives them an
opportunity. But the problem is, and I think even if you're Honda, it's not just about developing
the vehicle, then you've got to market it, you've got to spend billions of dollars more,
particularly if you're launching a brand like Scout, it's going to cost billions to
develop it and then to, you know, actually start selling it. So it is, it is extraordinary times
and, you know, it's extraordinary times in the world. And, you know, some of this, I think,
is going to be affected by how things shake out in, you know, in the next couple of months of
what's going on in the Middle East. The other, the other lucid vehicles, Cosmos and Earth,
I think they're called, right? Yeah, they're small SUVs. Yeah, I think that the idea is
there's not been a huge amount of information, but the, the Cosmos is a kind of sort of model Y
rival, but also kind of more, been more design-led and then the Earth, I think, is a bit more kind
of adventure focused, so probably more leaning towards the R2. But, you know, they're talking
about bringing it out later this year, I think, but, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll see.
Okay, well, if they're going to do that, they better get cracking.
Exactly. Interesting, interesting times. Yeah. Okay, well, what do you say we wrap
things up for today and seeing that, you know, you get sick kids and it's a Sunday night and I'm
sure they need attention. Yeah, they need to get a bed is what daddy needs, that's for sure.
You're taking it. They're adorable, but it's been a long, it's been a long weekend and I
want to watch the Oscars. Yeah, okay. All right, guys, thanks. Thanks so much for listening.
Like you said, we have a, we have an interview potentially next week with the CEO of, we'll,
we'll put that into one of the shows, so we'll figure that out and then,
yeah, a lot more, a lot more to come. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening.
Until next time, keep the air and the spare and the bag and the wheel.
About this episode
Alistair Weaver shares insights from his recent trip to Texas and South by Southwest, where he experienced the unveiling of the new Rivian R2. The discussion covers Rivian's design philosophy, the R2's size and performance specs, and how it compares to competitors like Tesla's Model Y. Key points include the R2's lighter weight, premium feel despite a lower price point, and clever aerodynamic features. The episode also touches on Rivian's challenges and hopes for the R2 as a critical vehicle for the brand's future.
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