China is driving safety, tire sizes explained, and minivans aren't all that after all?

Welcome to another episode of the Autobire's Guide podcast.

Today, we're going to be talking about tires, we're going to be talking about advancing safety

legislation around the world, some of these going to be controversial, and of course,

new cars that we have driven and new cars that we are excited to be driving coming

up soon.

So Travis, I know we have some slightly differing opinions on some new car features and functions,

but I find it interesting, I think we both find this interesting, that we're seeing legislation

of safety features coming from China now, a market that has historically been a follower,

not a leader on safety regulations.

Normally, it's been North America or Europe that's driven a lot of the worldwide safety

regulations and restrictions and norms, but we have some interesting ones coming out

of China now.

Well, the thing is, China is producing a lot of vehicles, so where they are in

that market, and honestly, not just the command they have for the attention, but just the power

they have in this arena has changed drastically, and there's some interesting stuff coming

through.

Honestly, I was this week with Nissan, and one of the big questions from a lot of journalists

is, why do you not have one pedal driving?

And they said, well, there are some regulations that we're just considering.

And it's one of those small things where it turns out there are concerns, there

are software limitations and financial limitations, so you don't have to build two

different versions of software, and it's not just that.

I mean, I think it was back in 2015 where we had to have backup cameras coming to all

new vehicles, but we're talking about some different stuff here.

Yeah, so the first topic that struck me interesting here was that China is now

considering, and this is somewhat relevant to some recent cases that we've seen

news stories in in North America, China is considering banning electronic

door releases.

This is not just the pop out handles that we see in Teslas.

They're talking everything, the push buttons on mock ease, the various buttons

on the insides of Jeeps, et cetera, this growing trend of electronic

rather than mechanical door latches.

And the reason they're saying is safety.

Too many people being trapped in cars when electrical systems fail.

They also, and this one, I do not quite understand the logic behind this,

but they're saying that some of these mechanisms are more prone to failure

after a side impact accident.

And so it prevents rescuers from being able to get in the vehicle

or the occupants from being able to get out.

But if you recall, we recently had people in some EVs.

This is primarily an EV thing, although it's expanding across to a

bunch of different luxury cars, you know, trying to make things

smoother and feel cooler, right?

Lots of Lincoln's are doing this.

And we've had a bunch of people recently drowned in in vehicles

because their electronic door release either didn't work or they couldn't

figure it out.

And this is where some of the nuance is interesting here,

because all these car companies have a way to get out of the vehicle mechanically.

But I was recently talking to someone about this and there was a review on,

I believe it was the Jeep Wagoneer S, the electric Jeep.

And they were saying, oh, there's no mechanical door release.

And I said, ah, there is.

It's just in a stupid spot.

And if you have to know where it's at and an emergency, you go for the door handle.

You don't exactly.

Where was that secondary door release that you've never used ever in your life?

And maybe someone pointed out, maybe they didn't.

Maybe you read your manual.

Maybe you didn't.

So you left, you left groping around.

Right. Here's an interesting poll question.

Who reads their manual?

Now, I think if we put out that poll, we're going to get probably a higher

hit rate than I think is going to cover the average consumer.

I think folks listening to our podcasts are pretty in tune with what's going on

on their vehicle and lots of others.

However, I know so in my Tesla, I have a button release, but within arms

reach and often confused for the release is going to be the manual version.

And that's great, except for they tell you, please don't use the manual

version. It's not intended for, you know, the same frequency

of use as a regular door handle, but that one is probably easier.

Although I'm not even sure where it's at for the back seats.

So those folks in a little bit of trouble.

And I admittedly haven't read my manual to see where that release is.

Probably because I'm in the front seat on that one.

And if anybody, because we do have, I'm sure some Tesla fans out there,

if anybody could tell us why Tesla does not want you to use

the mechanical release on a regular basis, which I agree.

I find actually more convenient than the electronic release in the Model 3.

I just don't know why.

Like, what is it about it that you're not supposed to be doing?

And again, so, you know, having worked for Tesla, I don't have an official answer.

I didn't work for the service department.

I think it is just meant for, hey, this is it's maybe a little bit more

industrial than it is consumer.

You know, hey, this is going to get that door open, but there's a mechanism

that's shifting and it's not designed.

Does it not lower the window?

You know, I haven't checked.

I can maybe I'll go check after this and we'll throw a little.

Because I know in some vehicles with electronic door releases,

the Sashless or Silless windows, if you use the mechanical one,

it doesn't cause the car to lower the window.

So you may wear that that seal out.

Right. Right.

That's a that's probably a good guess.

But yeah, I'll take it up after we're done recording here.

I will say once upon a time, General Motors in the very early days

of electronic door releases, some of the first cars that had them,

they had this huge red like pull tab or a big red webbing thing.

So it was more obvious, I would say in an emergency, if you're looking around,

hey, there's this red thing, pull on the red thing.

But if you're not using it every day,

are you going to be hardwired for that?

That's kind of the reason when, when, you know,

but they're talking about pilot safety, gun safety, gun training,

any kind of critical situation training repetitive operation is important.

Like if you want to be a good shot, you need to go to the driving range

or not the driving range, the you need to go to the gun range very frequently.

If you want to be a good golfer, you got to go to the driving range

all the time, right?

It's not like it's going to come back to you in that same precision

after that much difference.

There's a difference between having your CPR card and having just gone

to the CPR class, where you go, yes, I have just practiced that action.

And it's going to be, you know, immediate pop up memory versus six,

eight months down the line.

And you go, I know that.

Hold on. Hold on one second.

I think it, you know, we have the car that says we know it,

but do we remember it?

Have we practiced it?

And yeah, that's where you run into an issue.

Actually, I don't remember what card is.

So so whoever it is gets saved here where I was shocked about

where they put the emergency flasher button because we never go

for the emergency flasher button.

But sometimes, you know, you and I do, we got to pull over and we do

something real quick and then we jump back on where a lot of folks

wouldn't do that.

But I was going, where is this button?

I cannot find it.

And we're used to know, you know, hey, it's normally up here

where it's right in the center dash and it's just off.

It was like tucked off to the side in the corner.

I went, oh, no one's going to be able to find that.

And in emergency, you need to be able to go to it right away.

At least it wasn't one of those weird twisty pull things on top

of the steering column, like, like they used to have, you know,

like I have in my truck that I 100% did not know how to use the

first time I needed it.

Yeah, absolutely.

But this, this, this thought process of the regular muscle

memory basically for particular functions goes into the next

part of this, which is interesting.

And I'm wondering how this is going to affect research for

sure, because there's a limited amount of research, but

also legislation in other markets, because China has

already decided to ban one pedal driving sort of every new EV

being submitted for approval starting January 1st, 2026.

And every EV sold in China starting January 1st, 2027 will

make you re enable one pedal driving every time you turn on

the car.

And there are going to be some additional rules around this

about how much deceleration the vehicle can actually give you

without the one pedal driving on and when brake lights turn on,

et cetera.

But I was interested that, that China seems to be the one

focusing on this particular kind of safety.

There's a little bit of research on it, but there's not a lot,

which is interesting.

So, yeah, I think a lot of it's anecdotal and, and I'm

not, and we've talked about this before with one pedal

driving, is it safer and other complications with it?

And actually a lot of that goes back to our more

accidents caused by one pedal driving because people aren't

switching over to the brake pedal fast enough, quick enough, you

know, and, and I think people who are going right now from an

ice vehicle or a hybrid or whatever, but for internal

combustion of some sort to EVs, they are going to know how to

make the switch.

But what we're talking about is sort of the next generation.

If you only ever driven up driving EV, are you going to

use that brake pedal quick enough?

It's still, it's actually still both because this is

interesting.

There is some research on this.

The School of Automotive Studies in Shanghai put drivers

on simulators and these drivers were, you know, by and

large, generally speaking, ice drivers as well.

So some of them were EV drivers.

Some of them are ice drivers, but in this group, they

discovered that, that even relatively short term use in

these vehicles with one pedal driving, there wasn't that

muscle memory to find the brake pedal in an accident.

So this is kind of an interesting one.

I said, here's the, here's the result here.

The regenerative braking system did not affect driver

perception or reaction of the lead vehicle braking event.

So basically it didn't cause them to, you know, not know

what's going on with the lead vehicle and drivers extended

throttle release to avoid rapid speed drops when the

lead vehicle breaks slowly.

So no issues breaking slowly.

One pedal mode exhibited a longer throttle to brake

transition time and increased uncertainty in timing of

brake pedal applications.

However, the one pedal mode was safer than the two

pedal mode in low urgency situations.

So driver consistency was there in low urgency

situations, but in high urgency situations, it became

unsafe and uncertain situations due to delayed

braking.

So that's basically their, their thought process

there.

And then they call out in this study, which is

published, by the way, so it's a published research

paper, but even in this one, mind you, they say

much more research is needed that they didn't

have the opportunity to do this in the wild, but

they did comment that this data does seem to mirror

what we saw in the United States.

Again, modern research needs to be applied here.

But in 2020, the IHS data says back when Tesla

counted for 90% of EVs on the road in the US, EVs were

involved in 1.21 crashes per million miles driven

versus 1.1 for ICE vehicles.

25% more likely to be involved in a fatal accident

than an ICE vehicle.

Now, since 90% of accidents they're saying in the

study are driver behavior, they're saying this has

nothing to do with it being an EV.

This has to do with driver behavior and driver

behavior interaction and pedal misapplication or

timing delays, et cetera.

So that's the interesting part there.

The question, I guess, will be if China is

really interested in this topic, we should know,

you know, by 2030, because if every EV doesn't

have this option going forward, we'll start to

see some differences.

I'm also personally intrigued to see going forward

now that Tesla's market share has dropped and we

have EVs that don't default to one pedal driving

like this.

Is it any different?

It's a good question.

So, like I said, I was at Nissan and they said, you

know, we have three or four different region levels,

four region levels, and then we have our E-Step button.

And E-Step is their highest, but it's a standalone

button versus something within the software.

You know, this is not as easily accessible.

I said, go over here.

This is the highest level.

It's still not one pedal driving.

It will not bring you to a stop.

And effectively that doesn't bother me because it

does still have significant regen.

It just means you're going to have to switch

over to the brake pedal.

And a lot of people had feelings on that one.

And maybe a little more aggressive than I would have been.

But Nissan said, hey, listen, there's some regulations

that we're keeping an eye on.

And, you know, in theory, this is something they

can switch over.

But the way I look at it, and I do think I do think

someone comes out of finances is if you have markets

where this vehicle is going to be sold, instead of

putting two different software profiles in that enables

one pedal driving or doesn't, you say, hey, we're

going to do one.

And to start, we're going to do the one that's going

to cover everywhere as this as this vehicle rolls out.

I love one pedal driving.

But in my mind, when I think one pedal driving, my

first thought is actually significant regen and regen,

where I do not have to reach for the brake pedal in

every day.

But it's more of a transitional things.

But it's but coming to a stop is the definition

of one pedal driving.

And I don't think of it in the same way.

I just need I just need to know I have

significant regen.

So I don't have to go right.

I'll break that or break.

But yeah.

It's like my impression of your like of one pedal

driving has more to do with convenience.

And inconsistency and and smoothness.

So, you know, you and I have to be there.

You and I have debated this one forever, but I like

to be I like to be able to dial in and out the

power, right?

Just a little bit here, a little bit there.

And and will the debate will go on forever.

There are there is some research on this.

One pedal drivers do seem to have a higher

incidence of motion sickness for passengers in the

vehicle has been blind studies done on that one.

So that that one week, we can call the smoothness

thing a non-issue.

I would say it's mostly convenience, but but I

would say that to your point in the press

conference with Nissan, there are a significant

number of automotive journalists that do not

understand how regenerative braking works

and what blended braking is.

So there is this pervasive belief among

some Tesla fans and a decent number of

journalists that if you do not have one

pedal driving, that you're leaving electrons on

the table.

Oh, and like, you know, by the definition, it's

it's a fraction of a hair because we're talking

under 20 and 15 miles an hour that you go

throttle brake.

And there's there is not a lot to be gained

in that last moment.

And so and you're still

and you're still.

Yeah. And when you put your pedal, you're

still blended braking.

So that that is a rebellion or a Tesla.

Correct.

That is the flaw, I think, in a lot of these

people's logic is even in the electric

side by side that we are reviewing right now,

it has blended braking.

It's like almost are you going to have that

into next week?

Yes, almost excellent.

Almost every EV sold model

sold has blended braking, except

for Tesla and Rivian and a select number

of other car companies out there.

And that's the important thing for viewers

to understand is that blended braking means

when you put your foot on the brake

pedal of a Nissan Aria or a Blazer

EV or a Polestar or a BMW or a Mercedes

or a Porsche, it does not mean

that the brake caliper is actually

pressing the brake pad against the disk.

It means that it's commanding

regeneration until you have

hit the maximum the car can do.

Then you engage the friction

brakes. And that's the tricky bit

is there are actually a significant

number of EVs that have greater

regeneration potential than any Tesla

ever sold in the world.

Taycan, for instance, has more than

double the regenerative potential

of a modern Tesla because of this

blended braking system, because you

can actually do regen very aggressively.

But in a one pedal system, you don't

want it to be neck snapping regen.

You don't want emergency braking

level regen in a one pedal system.

And that's part of why the safety

question happens, because you're not

going to get that emergency response

by lifting off your foot.

And that's one of the things I like

about Chevrolet or any other GM

vehicles is they have a pedal

or they have a paddle.

They have a progressive paddle

and an on off paddle.

I actually prefer the on off paddle.

And that means if you want heavy

significant regen, you're coming down

the big hill, pull the paddle

first and then start to lift off.

And by pulling that paddle, you've

significantly boosted how much

regen is available.

So so you can really max out the

regen, but it's not too much

too quickly all the time.

I love regen braking for

every reason under the sun.

I 100 percent make it a game.

You know, for my test loop, I have

to do a consistency thing.

And that when I drive less

like I do every day and more like

I think more people do.

But I love to maximize how much

regen I get before that break

is actually applied.

I will say some vehicles

are really good about it.

Some vehicles are not.

I had a Tacoma trail hunter

and that has a hybrid engine.

But at no point does it really

want to tell you I'm super

hybrid. There is no charge meter.

And that's honestly one of the first

hybrids I've seen in a long time

that has no sort of charge meter.

The Prius that I have right now

definitely has a charge meter

and it's got a B mode and it's

got multiple levels of regen on the

B mode. I'm having the time of my

life nerding out on this Prius.

But yeah, I understand

I understand between drivers as

well. That's another one is if

you share the car in a household

that regen is going to be very

different. And my Tesla basically

has a light regen and the

heavy regen.

And there are some like that Nissan

that really has five different

levels. You know, hopefully those

are things that pair with keys.

So driver one is getting driver

one's profile and driver two is

getting driver twos profile.

But but I'm curious about about

the study. So keep them coming.

I want to see what what the

people say.

Yeah, I'm intrigued to see if

we see a difference in, for

instance, these accident statistics

that IHS categorizes

and catalogs all this data.

I am going to be really intrigued

because we would know better

what the impact of this is.

If you, for instance, took a look

at a vehicle that defaults

to very heavy one pedal driving

regeneration like every Tesla

and you compare that against an EV

in the same category that

does not or prefers no

regeneration. So for instance,

like like the German car companies

who spend days

and nights obsessing over

fractions of a percent in

efficiency.

They say that in their studies

in real world studies, etcetera,

that actually zero throttle

lift off regeneration is the most

efficient. So strong blended

braking, the ability to capture

more energy in the battery than

Tesla can. But by default,

zero on throttle lift off.

They claim that's the most

efficient, the full coast thing.

It's a fraction, but they're

super obsessed with that.

But that doesn't I want that

with the paddle.

So instead of giving me the

heavy paddle, give me the neutral

paddle and give me that full

coast option. But no one's going

to need that for me. So better

yet, give me the paddles like

Hyundai key and a number of

companies do where you can

adjust the region.

So you can say up or down with

the paddles and however many

steps you get.

But they've got an auto one

and I hate the auto one.

Oh, yeah, don't like that one.

That one adjusts based on

different speeds. And the

problem for me is that I

never know what kind of

region I'm going to get once

I start lifting off.

And that's honestly one of the

only issues that I get with

something like a Tesla or

a Rivian where you're

expecting certain levels of

region. If your battery is

full, you do not get that same

level of regenerative capacity.

That's where I will totally

agree. That's where you have to

be paying attention in a way

that most drivers probably

don't want to that when you

start lifting off, it's going

to slow down differently than

it did earlier that

Hyundai Kia Genesis. The

auto mode isn't based on

speed. It's based on the

distance between you and the

vehicle in front of you.

Which for me generally

depends on where I'm

driving. Right. Yeah.

Versus the. Yeah. So it's

it's this attempt to do

sort of kind of adaptive cruise

control like regenerative

braking. It's an odd one.

I don't like it either.

I think they could skip that

one. But the other other

adjustabilities I'm totally

fine with those single paddle

thing. I never use it in the

blazer to be honest.

You know, our blazer we've

had for 11, 12,000 miles now.

And it just is not as

useful as something that

would let you turn the more

aggressive levels on or off

over time. I just I'm I

don't know. I'm like it's

it's interesting. But before

we jump to before jump to the

next one, one small thing

that I think is so silly and

honestly more difficult for

the driver than it should be

when I have this Prius and I

love put it in B mode because

I love engaging as much

throttle lift off regen as I

can. But it will not let you

put it in cruise control when

you're in B mode. I have to

then switch it back over to

drive, which in the Toyota

is over and down to a

drive. If you're in drive,

you pull it down for B mode

but pulling down again will not

disengage B mode. You got to go

down and over and then you have

to go ahead and turn on the

cruise control. And that feels

like something that's going to

cause more issues than not

because if you're too slow

and as you go over, you end

up kicking it into neutral.

Yeah, I dislike the B mode

generally in the Toyota

products because it doesn't

just say I want more

regenerative braking because

they're calling it engine

braking. It is more likely

to turn on the engine to try

and keep a consistent speed

than just regenerate, which

I think is weird. And some of

the other hybrids out there do

a B mode better, I guess I

would say. Yeah, I don't know

why they lock out cruise

control there. But speaking

of new rules, the IHS and

speaking of the IHS as well,

for those that don't know,

it's the Insurance Institute

for Highway Safety. It's a

non-profit concern who's

really concerned about safety

because it costs them money.

Exactly. Non-profit funded

by the insurance companies.

That's the important part

because they're like they're

obsessed with lowering

accident rates and everything

there. So that's their thing.

They want a lower payout.

So we all benefit in a way.

I love the I want to keep

everyone safe.

Alice, I want to keep everyone

safe. They want to keep

everybody safe. They want to

keep those those actuarial

values or their insurance

really good. But we all

benefit because our interests

align in that way. I would

like to live. They would

like me to not have an

accident so that we don't

have to pay anything out, right?

That Venn diagram. There's the overlap.

Yeah, there's there's a decent

amount of overlap. Obviously,

there's a whole lot of not

overlap, but any rate.

This is what I'm intrigued by.

They're saying they want

impaired driving and speed

detection systems to be well,

not they want. They are going

to make it.

They will be required in order

to achieve the top safety

pick plus rating from

the IHS, which has become

ever more coveted by car

companies. They use it in a lot

of advertising.

A lot of people are now

talking about safety ratings,

etcetera.

They're describing this as passive

alcohol detection, so

no breathalyzer or anything, but

systems that will detect

your impairment based on the

way you drive, as

well as speed detection systems

that will let alert you that

you're going over the speed

limit in areas where they have

detected speed limits.

And what I want to know

is. We already have driver

monitoring, driver attention

detect detention, drowsiness

detection, etcetera, and

these systems will show you a

little coffee mug on your

instrument cluster like, oh,

hey, it's time to take a break.

You're driving distracted.

So, A, how is it going to know

the difference between distracted

driving and drunk driving?

B, what's the icon going

to be when it's detected

that you're drunk driving?

Is it going to be a cocktail

glass?

How many how many olives will

it have?

And can you customize it?

So say you are not a mixed

drink drinker.

I would be a wine glass.

Will it be a tall one with

an umbrella?

Do you get to do exactly

an old fashioned with the rotating

cube? Or is it just a red and

blue saying, hey, you

probably shouldn't be driving.

All drunk driving is bad.

Preface this with that just

being totally not serious here

at this moment. But is it

customizable?

I prefer red wine.

Can I get a red wine glass on

there?

More rationally, though, I'm

going to go ahead and guess

that by the time you're

weaving around enough for this

impaired detection system to

tell you that you're impaired,

you're already too effed up to

drive.

Yeah, you know, here's the thing.

There's there's a big, big brother

question.

And there's the point where

this isn't about big brother like

the police. This is the

manufacturers being

under the under the thumb

of the insurance companies because

they have they have a power,

right? They say, we can give you

this rating.

But only if you have this system.

First question is how can you

turn it off?

I guess I'm driving right now.

It had a driver distraction

warning. And let me tell you,

that thing pops off all the time,

even when I did not feel it

anyway, that I was distracted

driving. And I just said, OK, I

got to figure out where to turn

this off. And by the way, not

an easy thing to go find.

So to this one is too

aggressive, I think.

Yeah, or you could dial it

back. But in this case, it's

on or off. So can you turn

it off?

In theory, this whole thing is

to save lives and like on paper

that sounds great.

But is the person who's going

to have that message pop up

and say you're too drunk to drive

just go, nah, I'm good.

I got this.

I only, you know, I'll be home

in a minute. That's your drunk

impression happened.

Well, you you see me drunk

how many times zero because

I don't. That's what I'm

wondering. I'm curious.

Well, we're just going real

light on things. Anyway.

OK. If you get the message

that says, hey, you're drunk

and you go, nah, I'm good.

Thanks.

What happens then? Does it

shut? Oh, no, no, no.

So so the way that this seems

to be is it seems to just be

a variant of the drowsy driver

detection system that we have

now. So it's not going to tell

anybody it's not going to like

flash your hazards, etc.

It's just going to say, hey,

you're you're driving impaired

some in some way or another.

And then it is up to you as

the driver to then make good

decisions, which you have

theoretically already not done

because you've already drunk

and then gotten behind the

wheel. So this this seems

to be an effort to like

all safety regulations ever

you can you can speed.

You can not wear your seatbelt.

All of these things.

This just seems to be

a reminder that maybe we can

get the low hanging fruit.

Maybe we could get that person

that's that's that's a little

too tipsy to drive to go.

Oh, gee, I didn't think I was.

I didn't think I was that bad.

I didn't realize I was whatever.

But yeah, I don't suspect

it's going to catch any

serious alcoholics.

Yeah, I mean, and here's the

thing. So if it's a small

it's a small thing.

And at this point, it's more

of like a couple lines of code

because most of these vehicles

already have driver monitoring

systems. And so it's these systems

are now just looking for

different things.

It's saying, hey, this, you

know, the car knows that it's on

this road and it sees the

lane lines. And it goes, hey,

you're doing a lot of ping

ponging and we recognize that

it's past 6 30 p.m.

And, you know, like there's

a lot of things that it can

just look for and say, I think

you might be intoxicated.

And if it gets somebody to

stop, awesome, right?

I mean, that's that's that's

a win. It's just how

intrusive is it and is it going

to be? And then what's the

headline going to be, right?

Because because a lot of people

are really concerned about

Big Brother and this

wouldn't this wouldn't be

helping anything.

But you're going to see it in

every three row vehicle,

you know, just about immediately

because that's that's one of

the biggest concerns of moving

families is the safety

safest vehicle.

And those lines of code might

be the make or break between

someone's shopping list and

someone's not.

Yeah, this is an interesting

economics question in a way.

What is the what is the value

of a life?

And and that's where all

safety legislation and systems

really are are in

them, the equation of

you is is the airbag worth

that is the seat belt worth

that is driver attention

monitoring worth that is

autonomous braking worth it,

et cetera.

The systems can and do go

wrong. They cost money to

maintain in vehicles.

But what is the value of that

life is is that

that intrinsic public safety

question in a way that that

these rules are trying to

assess. And I don't know if I

have an answer to that, but it

is it is just an interesting

thing to ponder.

Oh, as your PR department, I

would recommend you never

answer that question.

But the first thing that comes

to mind is like an airbag.

And let's just say

theoretically, every time the

airbag goes off, it breaks

a nose.

But it'll save a life.

You know, most people go, I

don't want to break my nose.

It was a small fender

bender. But then when you

got in that accident where it

saved your life, you go,

break all the noses, it's all

fine. You know, it's just

sort of interesting trade off

there. I will say there

it's there goes beyond a big

brother element.

So I have a Tesla.

I do not pay for full self

driving. I have the standard

autopilot.

And I have had situations

where it doesn't detect my

hands on the wheel, because

there's always a weird fine

line. You don't want to be

too heavy on the wheel.

You don't want to be too

light on the wheel.

I lean towards too light on

the wheel.

And I have had it disengage

that system and say, you

are not allowed to use this

until you park, turn off the

vehicle and start again,

because it believes I am an

inattentive driver.

But that one feels weird

because I paid for a feature

and that feature has now

turned itself off.

And after a certain number of

a certain period of time,

if I do too many, it'll

turn itself off for a

significant period of time.

And I haven't looked all the

way into it. I just know

there you're putting time

out. But how can my

product put me in time out

when I have paid for it

to do this thing?

So that's that's another

thing where if your car

in theory says, hey,

you've been you've been

inebriated 17 times this

month, you're not allowed

to turn your car on until

you something.

There's a world where that saves

somebody's life, but nobody's

going to be happy about it

while it's happening to them.

Although all the autopilot

people that are not putting

their hands on the wheel or

not steering the car, because

this whole light handed

thing, it means you're not

steering the car.

You know that they deserve

to be in time out because

you need to be steering

your car. It's not a

self steering car.

It's the it's the answer

to that.

We'll agree to disagree.

But again, it's just one of

those questions.

The technology is here.

The software is here.

When does the company say

this is too much or too little?

And this is this is kind

of where, you know, is is

older better because you don't

have to deal with the nannies.

Yeah, you know what?

You know what is not a

self steering car either.

The new Polestar five.

Have you seen it?

I have seen it.

I have also seen a price

tag on it and it is alarming.

She's expensive.

Yeah, they're talking up

for the performance model.

One hundred forty one thousand

six hundred euros, the equivalent

of one hundred sixty five

thousand dollars.

And the current Polestar

is that's for sure.

Yes. Well, Polestar did say

ages ago that their mission

was not to compete with Tesla,

not to compete with Mercedes

necessarily. Their mission

was to be the electric Porsche,

which is telling since

I mean, well, I say

something since Porsche

is also going electric.

So, you know,

this is targeting kind

of Tycon, to be honest,

more than lucid air.

But there are some lucid

interesting corollaries

here in Norway, because it's

going to be one of the fastest

charging EVs out there.

They're claiming three hundred

fifty kilowatts peak charge

rate and their one hundred

twelve kilowatt hour battery,

which is pretty darn big,

is going to fill in about twenty minutes.

Yeah, that's humming.

And is there any

conversation about efficiency

because that's also

an interesting one where

I mean, there's a point

where it's charging

so quickly, how many miles per hour

doesn't matter, but the more efficient

you get, the more miles

you get per per minute of charging.

Yeah, lucid like on the charging side,

Tycon like on the efficiency side

because it has significantly

wider tires in just in the launch

edition than a lucid does.

And that we'll we'll get to

tires a little bit later

in the video when we talk about this,

but significantly wider tires

than we find in the lucid.

It's going to launch with

two fifty fives up front,

two ninety fives in the rear

on twenty two inch rims,

thirty profile tires

back really, really like rubber bandy

and really the thinnest

tire I've seen in a long time.

Yeah, and there could be

some serious performance tires, too.

It's about fifty four hundred

pounds of curb weight

and it's a little bit heavier

than Tycon, but it's

it's bigger inside than Tycon

by a pretty decent margin.

So I'm intrigued to see

how it really compares.

It seems like it's trying

to be more of an electric

Panamera than an electric Tycon,

but eight hundred eighty four horsepower,

zero to sixty likely in under three seconds.

They're quoting three point one,

but Polestar has been playing BMW's game

where they over under

promise and over deliver.

It's two hundred inches long,

so a little bit longer than Tycon,

one hundred twenty inch wheelbase,

notably longer than Tycon

or Lucid air on the wheelbase front.

Yeah, it should be real stable.

You know, this is one of those things

where I agree

that it's probably going to pass up

Tycon in a number of different ways,

but also Tycon is sort of a

I mean, really a gen one

high performance EV.

And so this seems like

what a gen two Tycon would look like

when you start doing some of these side by side.

So that feels like a new benchmark

and it's and it's not taking

anything away from Polestar

because it's a good looking vehicle,

fantastically quick,

lots of lots of features

that I think people are going to shop

against the Tycon and E-tron,

you know, GT, those sorts of things.

But but I want to see

I want to see the Germans punch back.

That's actually more excited about.

I am I am casually

curious about Polestar's future.

I just don't know

if there's a future future in it

unless the parent company

starts treating them more like Porsche,

which I think would take too much time

unless they're willing to spend the money on it.

So for those that don't know,

it is it is often reported

based on assumptions, because we don't know

that intrinsically,

Porsche does not make money on their own

from the car building side.

It appears that Porsche

makes more revenue.

I'm sorry, not more revenue, but more profit

from their licensing deals,

their engineering deals with with outside companies,

et cetera, and inside Porsche versus making Porsche.

Right. From inside the Volkswagen Envelope,

Porsche, you know, engineers

are they they'll use Porsche Technologies

and other Volkswagen Group products,

things like that to to make everything work.

Of course, Porsche shares platforms

with other things in the Volkswagen Envelope

to help reduce costs.

So Tycons, Bits and Bobs weren't exclusive to Tycon.

They are obviously in the Audi product line.

Same thing for, you know,

everything other than the 911, basically,

is in some way or another used in in other vehicles

inside the Volkswagen Envelope,

which is totally logical and rational.

But and and Polestar is somewhat similar in that way.

But Polestar doesn't have this ability

to license the Polestar anything outside

diehard Polestar fans.

They're not nobody's out there buying Porsche pens

and mugs and shirts and things like that

with without any hope of buying a Porsche.

Right. And that's where, you know,

it's it's remained the it's been the the poster child.

I mean, literally, you have that Porsche poster

and you go, oh, I can do this. I want this.

Polestar just isn't there at the moment.

And I think what they'd have to do, you know, on paper,

the products they have right now

that compete against direct Porsche models

actually, I think compete very well,

especially since they are sort of this

in this Gen 2 EV era where some of the Porsches

are still Gen 1 and working their way to Gen 2.

But they just don't have

they just don't have that name recognition.

They just don't have the I don't know.

It's not interesting enough to go, oh, I have a Polestar.

And actually, I think Polestar so far

has been a little bit too tame to do that.

They've been a little bit too mainstream

where Porsches not just their ownership

with some of the vehicles they have out there,

the ones that are at shows.

They've got the heritage models, those sort of things.

They they feel more boutique

and that's where Polestar just isn't at the moment.

So on paper, I think they're doing

what they set out to do, but there's a whole lot more to it.

Yeah. And for those that don't know,

the Porsche Design Studio has a whole ton of weird things

that they've designed. Oh, my God.

I mean, wind turbines, Opels, they've designed Audi's for Audi.

They've designed motorcycles.

They apparently designed some of the interiors

for Scania trucks.

The interior in a Citroen,

they designed like hard drive cases.

They even designed a forklift for Lind.

I mean, crane, crane trucks and things like that.

Like Porsches, Porsche will design any side by side.

Yes. And it was like a razor side by side.

That was Porsche design and jet skis have designed jet skis, etc.

So Porsche will design anything if you've got enough money

and you want a certain aesthetic.

The Porsche Design Studio apparently will do that.

The racing brand, you know, they've got all of that.

That puts a lot of Porsche badges on a lot of merchandise.

And importantly, in the historic times,

Porsche did also do engineering services for other car companies

like car companies could go to Porsche with questions

about a head design, etc.

And Porsche would work with them on, you know, developing new designs

for heads, etc.

The rumors that Volvo was, you know, a customer in the before times

in the 70s, for instance, in 80s for assistance,

engineering assistance from Porsche.

But that's not Polestar's game in a way.

And they started, I mean, they started with a Polestar one.

We won't talk about that because it doesn't make sense in the lineup.

But I still need to drive one.

But yes, go on.

Yeah, Polestar two was based on a Volvo S 40 concept.

So relatively affordable, small car, etc.

That's their volume play.

Now they have Polestar three, which is bigger and more expensive

and very Volvo based still Polestar four about the same price.

But now we're jumping into Polestar five, which is double

the price tag of any of these other things.

And I'm just wondering, obviously, it's going to be a hard sell at the beginning.

They're going to be some diehard fans.

Some people are just in the style, etc.

That are definitely going to go out and jump into a hundred sixty five

thousand dollar car, but without without spending money on Polestar itself,

the parent company, Geely, what are they going to get out of this

if they're not willing to redesign this one hundred sixty five

thousand dollar car on the same schedule that Porsche would redesign

a car or someone else would redesign a competitive car.

How's that going to work? I don't know.

I think it's almost a weird world that where they maybe should have built

a better, faster, more expensive version to just kick everything in the teeth

and say, here we go.

Here we are.

Become that poster of some kind, as far as like the brand status.

But, you know, and that would sell half the volume of the Polestar five,

perhaps, but but what's the volume on something like a Polestar five?

So it raises a lot of questions.

And it's not it's not just Porsche, you know, like I said,

we have something like the Audi e-tron GT that is still out there.

And that I need to look up sales numbers.

I'll do that some other time, but between Ticons and GTs,

not including Cross Turismo's, because they should be a hundred percent

of the version, although Audi just said their RS six e-tron is not happening.

I saw a report there that's not surprising, but is disappointing.

But we also have Lucid, who says, you know, if Lucid wants to turn up the dial

and Tesla is not really in that ballpark.

But if they said our plaid is going super plaid and we've we've got the Lucid

Super Air, that market actually does get a little bit tight pretty quickly.

So exactly comes out on this one.

Yeah, because you're you're really going to be limiting range a lot.

We don't know range figures.

It's about 400 miles WLTP range, theoretically, in Europe.

So in the U.S., by the time it gets here,

Polestar five maybe could do 300 miles high to really low threes.

Yeah. And depending on options, if they have the kind of performance packages

that are available in Ticon, you could definitely get way under three,

even with a battery that's that big.

The battery is decently bigger than a Ticon battery.

But we're still talking about the same sort of of, you know, realities

when it comes to rolling resistance, etc., which brings us along to the tire

talk. Yeah.

So recently again, sorry, Nissan's getting a lot of plugs today,

but I was really in full disclosure.

I was really excited to go drive this new leaf and so excited to tell everyone about it.

Have they turned over a new leaf?

Oh, God, I just can't can't pull myself into that because everyone else is going to do it.

Or is the leaf dying on the vine?

Okay. Well, we'll workshop this offline.

The leaf is all new.

I mean, truly all new and there is spring.

It's spring again in the forest.

Yeah. Sorry, folks. This is going to be a tough one.

Alex has had his coffee. He got a little bit of sleep.

So, you know, I just think there's a 300, Alex, listen to me.

There's a 300 mile Nissan leaf now, and that's awesome.

And the way normally we do these events is they have you drive to a point

and then you drive your second point, they'll feed you lunch and then you drive home.

At point number one, there was a first gen leaf.

And the reason it was at point number one is because it could not get to point number two,

which was actually quite a ways out there.

We were doing mostly highway, did lots of climbing, and that gen one didn't have the range.

Gen two probably could have made it there, but you would have run into issues on the way back.

The whole point is we have a 300 mile leaf as long as you get the right model.

The S plus is rated for 303 miles.

That's obviously not highway, but we just got to work with the numbers we have.

The SV plus has a 288 mile range.

And the only difference between those two models is obviously a little bit heavier on the SV plus

when you start adding features, your vehicle gets heavier, that obviously reduces your efficiency.

But they have the same 18 inch wheel size.

They have the same tire, but the difference comes down to the wheel design.

And that just right there is a wheel with an arrow cover versus a standard ish alloy looking

wheel. And you drop 20 miles of, you know, something very close to that adds up.

And then if you go up to the top end trim, which goes from a 215 tire to 235,

which is not a small jump, all things considered.

And it moves to a 19 inch wheel, which is less efficient.

Now we're all the way down to 259 miles.

We've dropped another almost 30 miles at that point.

And that just has to do with wheels and tires.

Yep. A little tiny segue here. We'll get back.

It is interesting. Car companies are generally not required to report fuel efficiency variances

on different trims and different trim packages, unless they're expected to be

more than a particular percentage of the sales blend.

That's how the rules work there.

But it is interesting, some car companies don't bother to do this.

Like Tesla is notorious for this.

They give you one range figure for everything,

even though there may be options that will dramatically change the range,

because they don't need to.

And then BMW loves to give you range figures for everything,

even though when they really do not need to.

So if you ever want to see what impact different wheel and tire sizes and designs

can have on your EV, just toadle on over to the BMW website,

launch a configurator for one of their EVs,

and they'll give you all the different optional wheels

and how that will impact your range in that same car.

Kind of a handy thing to know.

We're going to do the same thing, and they've got a different,

they've got a larger variance in what kind of tires you're using as well.

I will mention that they do use a different tire compound for this top-end trim Nissan,

which is going to be more, I want to say performance oriented,

but it's a nicer tire versus more of an eco tire.

You know, we're speaking all things relative.

But the question was, because I put it out there on our Facebook page,

you know, arranged from 353 to 259.

They said, is that just on wheels and tires?

Short answer is yes.

And there's a video by someone up in my area, folks over at Engineering Explained,

Jason, who just bought a new Lucid, and he is all about efficiency,

so he and I are in the same wavelength there.

But he basically talks about in combustion vehicles, even in hybrid vehicles.

If you're trying to make the vehicle more efficient,

you can spend all of your time and energy on the internal combustion engine itself,

because that's where you lose all the efficiencies.

But when we get to EVs, most of the efficiency loss is coming in the shape of the vehicle

and things like the tire compound and your rolling resistance.

That's just so different from all these other vehicles.

So that's why, you know, you've never worried about an 18 inch wheel

or a 19 inch wheel on your, I don't know, fill in the blank,

your Chevy Blazer internal combustion.

But if you look at the EV, you go, oh, why does that start to matter?

And it's just, it's fascinating to me.

I mean, it's nerdy beyond reason, but it really does start to add up.

Yeah, percentages are important, and people misunderstand this

because they're looking at a number rather than the percentage difference here.

So for instance, if you're driving a 20 mile per gallon car

and X causes a 5% loss in efficiency, you're probably not going to notice or even care

because we're talking numbers that are so small.

But if you have a 5% change in a car that's getting 50 miles per gallon,

you're going to notice it more readily because the number change

is going to be bigger to your eyes, even though the percentage change

is actually about the same.

So when we're talking about efficiency on EVs, this is especially important.

One interesting twist, the BZ and the Soltera actually saw a pretty

significant efficiency improvement just in replacing their inverters with better

inverters.

That had a bigger impact than I thought on those vehicles.

But tires and tire compounds are very important.

Rolling resistance is going to be a big, big deal out on the open highway

as well as you said, aeroshape.

And that's part of why we see big batteries being needed on trucks.

You're not going to get a truck to move down the road in any sort of

efficient way and have it still be a truck.

That there's the aerodynamic reality of that.

And remember that coefficients of drag are coefficients.

It's not an absolute number.

It's not like the wind resistance is X.

That's how you get to the wind resistance for a vehicle of the same

general profile.

So bigger vehicle, taller vehicle, etc.

They can have a really slinky coefficient of drag.

It still takes more energy to push them through the air than a smaller vehicle,

a lower to the ground vehicle, etc.

And that's how Lucid, for instance, gets those really great efficiency numbers.

It's low to the ground.

It's really slick and slinky.

It has a low roof line, etc.

And they're really trying to dial in all of that.

Also skinny tires because rolling resistance is definitely a function of tire width.

And this is where, you know, we get in trouble sometimes

thinking about tire size and tire dimension.

When you take a look at tires out there for the uninitiated,

the first number, tires are fun anyway because worldwide,

they're this awkward combination of metric and imperial measurements, right?

And we shouldn't even call it an imperial measurement anymore

because it's America that does it now.

And even the British have mostly abandoned the imperial measurement system,

although I love the fact that they retain it in certain weird ways.

Anyway, that's all whole different.

My house power, that sort of thing.

Well, weighing people in stone, for instance, that's always fun.

Because you weigh people in stone, you get your milk in gallons,

you get your beer in pints, but you buy your sodas in metric

and your gasoline in liters, but you're rated in miles per gallon.

But it's not the same gallon that we have.

Anyway, all that fun.

So tires, the first measurement is millimeters

width for the tread, section width of the tire,

not necessarily tread width because that's a whole different conversation.

Section width of the tire, then we get the aspect ratio,

then we get the wheel size in inches.

So metric for your section width, the ratio of width to wheel size,

then you get the wheel size.

So the 60 series means you basically how much cushion you get

beyond between that wheel and the road, then tread width can vary.

So generally speaking, a 255 width tire should have more tread

than a 245 millimeter wide tire, but not necessarily as much as 10 millimeters.

It's a general thing.

It also gives you an indication of what will fit in a wheel well.

So if your car can handle a maximum width of 255 within the design constraints

of suspension components and everything else,

then you could get a tire that can maximize that tread width there a little bit more.

But importantly, the actual contact patch of your vehicle on the ground

is not necessarily a function of the width of the tire

because the weight of the vehicle and the tire inflation pressure has impact here as well.

So the contact patch is going to be a lot of these variables together.

And if you take a vehicle that was designed for a 225 millimeter wide tire

and you put a 255 millimeter wide tire on it,

you've generally speaking widened the contact patch

and made it shorter front to back.

They're pros and cons to this.

Generally speaking, you're going to get better lateral grip if it's wider.

And you're going to get better stopping distances if it is longer

because the way that friction and traction works in these axes is critical and important.

So there is an optimal width and an optimal length contact patch

for every vehicle for every different situation.

And it's a game of playing these situations

and what's appropriate for the vehicle and the customer that you're selling the car to.

And the trade-offs as well.

So maybe this is the best contact patch.

But when we put this tire size on it,

there's certain frequencies that make their way into the vehicle.

It's too loud.

It's not efficient enough.

It's the cost of replacing tires depending on what the vehicle is.

There's the manufacturing.

Let's stick with a pretty consistent size tire

so that we're not building something from scratch

and have to pay extra money on that.

So yeah, there's the beam counter aspect of it as well.

Likelihood of hydroplaning is a big factor

that I think a lot of people don't always think of.

So if you take a given vehicle, say a Toyota Grand Highlander,

and you chose to put even wider tires on it than you had from the factory,

your risk of hydroplaning goes up,

but your handling general lateral grip goes up as well.

So you'll get a better handling,

quote unquote, better handling Grand Highlander.

But in the winter, in a rainy area,

you may be at greater risk of hydroplaning,

all things being equal, which very frequently they're not.

Right.

Yeah, so we say tires are fun,

but that's from a very, very nerdy perspective.

And then there's the question, like I said,

in this case, we're talking about two different tire makes.

So it's not just different sizes,

but they're actually a totally different tread patterning

and variation in compound.

So that is going to make a bigger difference as well.

But yeah, the question was, is there really that big of a gap?

And the answer is yes, we see so much more in EVs.

And actually, to your point about measuring efficiencies,

this is a conversation I had around a dinner table,

it was that now we're starting to see cars or regular vehicles,

non-hybrid, non-whatever, talk about their range as well.

And very few people in the world have ever asked,

how far can I go on and tank a gas?

But now that range has become part of marketing speak,

with an EV, they go, oh, here's how far you can go on this.

Number one, they're trying to say you can go farther.

And generally speaking, that's true,

because it's easier to put a bigger gas tank in

than it is to put our large battery pack.

But it's also, it's not as big of a differential these days

as it would have been 10 years ago.

So that's sort of an interesting one for me.

And then to your point about the efficiency,

I had that Tacoma Trail Hunter,

which is the, to my mind,

I'm pretty sure the least efficient version of Tacoma.

Well, the hybrid versions, right, the hybrid variants.

Because in this case, I had the one with a six foot bed,

wild, by the way, that you have to get a $63,000 Tacoma

to get a hybrid and a six foot bed.

But that's the only one that has it.

It also has hundreds of pounds of steel components

added on from the factory, underneath,

front rear bumpers, utility racks, et cetera, et cetera.

And then it doesn't have the air dam

that you get on the lower end trims,

which does help with aerodynamics, not maybe enormous.

And also it has 33 inch more off-road oriented tires,

which are not as good for efficiency.

But somehow that has the same rating

as the TRD off-road,

which is obviously like a similar vein, but not the same.

And it's a close rating to the limited,

but the limited does have a different powertrain layout,

full-time all-wheel drive versus part-time.

But let me tell you,

I did not get the rated range on that one.

And I'm guessing if you did those tests,

if they had to do EPA testing on that one,

if they were somehow farther apart,

you would find probably some different numbers.

Yeah, tires have a big, big, big impact

with all-terrain tires.

There's a component of this that is tread design related.

So you're going to create more wind resistance.

The tires tend to be heavier for all-terrain tires, et cetera.

So that's going to have an effect.

We also have differing compounds in the tires.

That's going to have an effect on those all-terrain tires as well.

And then there's the size of the tire,

the mechanical advantage you get in the diameter of the tire

can have an impact here also.

We have a Kia Sportage in at the moment,

the X-Pro and the X-Pro all-wheel drive loses two miles per gallon.

Pretty significant.

And we're talking about 24 miles per gallon versus the non-X-Pro

with the same all-wheel drive system,

same curb weight, same practically everything,

same ground clearance.

Because I was going to ask the ground clearance.

Yeah, because X-Pro is literally a styling,

looks good off-road package with an all-terrain tire

that you could swap in yourself like this.

There's no extra actual capability in this thing.

And that really tells you the kinds of difference

you can get with different tire compounds.

Summer tires tend to be very sticky.

So they're going to have better, better friction on the road.

And that's obviously going to lead to greater rolling resistance.

And EV tires are this blend of different needs.

They need to be able to stop a heavier vehicle still quickly.

They need to be able to handle well,

but they need to lower rolling resistance.

And so the solution to this has historically been

different compounds in the tire.

Dawn, when we're talking about the actual rubber in the tire,

tread patterns, et cetera, different sidewalls,

but also the addition of silica, which is kind of interesting.

So it's a specific kind of silica sand

that's actually put in the rubber in the tire

to give you basically glass shards,

for lack of a better word when you think about it,

like glass shards gripping the road.

And that's pretty cool.

Yeah, because silica has a lower impact

on rolling resistance while still giving you

increased grip in breaking acceleration

and handling performance.

It's actually pretty darn cool.

The reason we don't see that in all the tires out there,

and it's taken a while to get this kind of silica in the tires,

is that basically you're sandblasting the inside

of all the machines that are making tires

when you put this kind of gritty material inside the rubber.

Instead of just oozing out easily like syrup,

you're basically forcing an abrasive thing

through that orifice.

Pwn is the don't want to be abrased.

Right, and so everything's just going to wear out faster, basically.

Yeah, and don't forget the inclusion of foam,

more significant inclusion of foam,

to stop some road noise because you're not getting engine noise.

You know, it's one of those things where there's technologies,

driving technologies, driving technologies

that we'll see carried all the way through.

And yeah, it's a real nerdy subject

for folks who hung in there.

Thanks so much because tires aren't for everyone,

but I find them wildly fascinating.

And there's just not a world,

at least we're not set up right now,

and you know, someone wants to give us a call

and figure out a way to do it.

My vehicle right now, I'd love to tell you everything

about my driving experience in my Tesla Model 3,

but I can't tell you what happens if I swap out tires.

I can tell you what I expect to happen,

but I can't do the same loop five different times

with my vehicle just swapping out different tires,

saying, hey, here's how this is better.

That's why it's not a bad idea

to just stick with the OEM tire that you have

because that one, you will know what you're getting.

Anything else is unfortunate, roll the dice.

And anyone else who says, hey, especially forums,

online forums are going to be the best place for information

and the worst place because they say, oh man,

this made this so much quieter for me,

but they have an entirely different road construction

than what you have.

Or their driving style is entirely different,

and there's just no way to measure out these variables.

So yeah, my recommendation is tire rack on that one.

And let's move on now to some family vehicles.

We have the Toyota Highlander,

one of the OG crossovers, still here for 2026.

Grand Highlander hasn't replaced it yet,

but it is now significantly more expensive

if you just want to get your foot in the Highlander's door.

The base model is now going to start at $45,270

because the former base model is dead.

Right, so the Highlander is not now more expensive

than the Grand Highlander side by side,

but you got to pay more to get the Highlander to begin with.

I think this makes sense,

and obviously the Grand Highlander has taken a lot of sales

away from Highlander and they say,

hey, people who are looking for the value version of this

honestly are probably looking for the Grand Highlander anyway.

It also pushes people that direction even further.

They say, hey, if this is the money you're going to spend,

why not go a little bit further?

But I think this is a slow decline

to the end of the Highlander.

Honestly, it's a little bit disappointing,

not in a horrific loss

because the Grand Highlander is a great replacement.

But right now Toyota has,

and I mentioned this a couple weeks ago

because I had the Toyota Crown,

I said that Crown falls between a RAV4 and a Highlander,

and it's neither of those vehicles at all.

There's just such a range for what you're looking for.

And if you're trying to get three rows

that you use very occasionally

and you don't need any bigger vehicle,

but you're looking for that Toyota,

that Highlander has been there for you.

Yeah, I suspect that in the next generation Highlander

is going to change in some form or another

because it does appear that we're going to get another one.

I'm just wondering if it's going to turn it

to more of a passport-y kind of thing.

At $45,270, it is a couple hundred bucks more

really than the Grand Highlander.

Now across the board, the Highlander only went up $200.

So it's this deletion of the base trim.

But it does mean that you could get yourself

in a Kia Sorento,

which is the same size inside as a Highlander

for over $12,000 less.

And you could actually get yourself

in a Hybrid Sorento for $5,000 less than a Highlander.

Then the Hybrid Highlander.

Yeah, then just a base Highlander.

Yeah, you get yourself Hybrid Sorento

for five grand less than the least expensive

gasoline Highlander.

And you could also get yourself

a plug-in Hybrid Sorento

for about the same as a Hybrid Highlander.

If you're interested in that.

I think between you and me,

I'm probably leaning towards that Sorento

in just about any of those guys.

Again, nothing against the Highlander.

But I really like that Sorento.

But what you're not going to get

is that what you're not going to get

is that Toyota resale value.

But you know what else has pretty good resale value?

Those Kia's and Hyundai's these days.

Yeah, yeah, calculated resale value

the way ALG would know.

But in real-world situations,

you're probably getting really darn close on that Kia.

But speaking of family vehicles,

this leads me to my next question

that I am pondering after having driven

the Chrysler Pacifica last week,

which is still my favorite Minivan.

The Pacifica plug-in Hybrid,

I think is the best Minivan available

in the U.S. right now.

If you can afford one,

which is definitely a problem

because it's losing its tax credit

in the before times,

you would expect to roll into a Chrysler

and pay at least $15,000 less

than the actual MSRP on a plug-in Hybrid Pacifica.

But now prices are going up.

But also, and importantly,

I make this point in the video

coming up just to not to spoil it too much.

I think the problem for Minivans is

that they're all old.

Sienna's the newest of the bunch,

not saying a whole lot there

because it's not a great Minivan

to be painfully honest.

It's lost probably kind of close to it.

Yeah, it's like Sienna lost a decent amount

of practicality here

in the lack of removable second receipts,

long hallmark of Minivans.

None of the Minivans do as well

as you might hope in crash tests.

Odyssey actually got a pretty bad rating

in the new IHS moderate offset.

So your pilot's safer, quote-unquote,

by the numbers.

And all of them,

none of them drive as well

as this recent crop of family-focused

SUV crossover things.

Palisade, Acadia, Grand Highlander,

the new pilot, et cetera.

So, you know,

while I was once team Minivan

always the answer,

my question is, what do you think?

Are we seeing the end of the Minivan era

or is it time for Minivan companies

to just try and actually do something better?

I mean, time to fight back, right?

I mean, I think, like you mentioned,

the list of vehicles

that are driving better

to your mind.

You know, I haven't done too much

of the side-by-side

and I've really loved the way

Minivans drive,

not as far as their dynamic capabilities,

but just cruising, right?

They are hard to beat,

but the SUV has softened.

So we're not looking at an expedition

when we're talking about these.

We're talking about the crossover style

and that has gotten quieter

and more comfortable

and much more car-like.

Yep, and cavernous, right?

And that's exactly what you got out of Minivan.

The hard part here

is that the companies building these Minivans

have also been building these SUVs

that are getting crossover-ified

and where do you put that R&D money?

So why would you spend a bunch of money

to go build an Odyssey

that is losing market share to a pilot?

But I would argue,

if you put the money in the Odyssey,

you can win back a lot of that market.

If you say, hey, we are,

we are not ground up, right?

But we're saying,

we are putting the significant resources

into this model,

but it's more of a risk,

I think, than most manufacturers

want to take at this point.

And the one that does set itself apart,

so now we've got hybrid models,

we've got Minivans with all-wheel drive,

there's only one with that plug-in hybrid,

that's the Pacifica.

That's kind of the one

that feels like it sets it apart for me

is that that is the most complete

as far as I can do just about everything,

but that one can't do all-wheel drive

when you get the plug-in hybrid.

Right.

And there are a bunch of people that go,

no, no, no, I need all-wheel drive

who I will die on this hill 100% do not,

but they won't buy a vehicle without it.

So...

And the only one that gets real all-wheel drive

is the non-hybrid Pacifica

because the one in the Sienna

uses the RAV4's hybrid system essentially,

and that electric motor

is just not powerful enough

to really do a whole lot in the Sienna

if you need,

if you quote-unquote need all-wheel drive.

Need, need, yeah.

I mean, it does improve traction.

You know, it's a, it's a,

it's better than not having anything in the back,

but it is not going to be as capable,

quote-unquote, in the snow or wherever

as a Pacifica all-wheel drive.

But here's the thing.

You're not going to get the Forester all-wheel drive

into the Sienna.

Here's the thing.

It's like 25, 30 years ago,

it was a no-brainer for the minivan

because they had, you know,

the semi-independent or independent rear suspensions,

they had low centers of gravity,

and they were being compared against suburban.

Tahoe, expedition, et cetera,

the full-size SUVs, easy wins, right?

They didn't have independent suspension in the back.

They had stiff leaf springs.

They road-like shit.

Like no one wants, God, I mean, escalades.

You don't want to be in the third row

of an old escalade.

They're terrible in the back.

It's just a truck.

But now,

Right in the bed of a truck.

Right.

And they were less expensive.

That was a big sales job too.

Like the minivan was significantly less expensive.

Well, minivans are still less expensive

than Tahoe or et cetera, right?

But they are not less expensive

than Grand Highlander or Palisade or et cetera.

That is the tricky part.

And well, you do give up cargo practicality

and you don't have seats that fold

into the floor quite the same way

or come out if you get a Nikadia

or a Grand Highlander.

You get more power.

You get all-wheel drive.

You get more comfortable seats

in some of these vehicles,

more features, a more modern vehicle.

There's an argument for,

okay, but you lose some practicality

like in that cargo volume.

And you go, I load my vehicle

with a bunch of stuff

and I have a bunch of people.

And you go, okay,

then go get a Ford Transit

that has some removable seats.

Or it's the business use case

where they could go fleet,

something like a Kia Carnival.

And they go, oh, but again,

like they have more focused vans

that are not minivans.

They're business vans.

And I think the market share is decreasing.

I'm going to miss it a little bit.

I think we're on the way out.

And that's where I'm going to stand on this.

But for me, that's a loss.

I've loved what a minivan is.

I love what it represented.

I love the efficiency of it.

You know, you just,

you weren't carrying around more vehicle

than you need,

but my God, you got so much space

and comfort.

And they got all the feature sets

before these, you know,

the escalades of the world came around.

As long as we keep the crossovers

that are in that vein,

then we won't have completely lost them.

But the coolness of the minivan,

boy, was that short lived.

That was, that was definitely a thing.

But it was also a different era.

And I think that's maybe,

it's like, I hate,

just probably give you the death knell

to the big crossover,

but in a way, they're the minivan of now, right?

So, but because,

because they're the right size thing

for the family of now,

when we go back and think about this,

you know, 35 years or so ago,

when the first Chrysler minivans rolled off,

families were larger.

You know, the average family size was,

you know, solidly three plus

in many areas of the country.

And now we do not see that anymore.

The average, average family

with young children now

is somewhere, I think it's like 1.5

of children on average,

something like that.

So we're talking lots of single kid households,

some two kid households,

and very, very few three or more households.

They definitely exist.

I've got in-laws that have,

you know, four and five kids, but,

but that is somebody,

not we know a bunch of them.

They are, they are the exception by far,

not the rule.

And previously,

when you were looking at the family vehicle,

that was more of the rule.

We also have a aging set of people to buy new cars.

So previously,

the minivans were purchased by younger people.

Now, when we look at who buys a new car,

they've advanced at least by a decade.

And the average new car buyers in their fifties,

they're not out there

with young kids that need to be transported.

And so I kind of wonder if, if that's just,

this is more logical.

It's like, yes, you cannot put as much luggage

in a Grand Highlander or in a Katie or a Palisade

as a Sienna or an Odyssey.

But do you need to?

Because how often are you really jamming

that many people into it?

And if you fold down the third row,

as most people will spend

almost all of their time in these things.

Anyway, then even though you still don't have

as much as a minivan, you get closer.

And it probably doesn't make as much of a difference

in that case because you still got such a huge cargo area.

Yeah. And I think there's also a world,

I mean, obviously depending on where you live,

but it wouldn't work where I'm at

because we don't really have it.

But if I have the in-laws in town and they say,

oh, man, we got to, you know,

we're trying to get everyone out to the play

to the show, whatever.

Okay, then order an Uber XL.

That way you don't have to worry about any of it.

You know, oh, we'll take the kid in the car seat

and we'll meet you guys there.

And that way you don't even have to rent a car for the week

to do something bigger.

But you can't always rent a car because remember that.

You can always rent a minivan for the weekend.

The in-laws are in town instead of having to buy a minivan

when you don't need one.

That's definitely true.

And to be honest, for a lot of families out there,

the single kid households, even two kid households,

you know, a seven seat crossover SUV

is still going to fit the in-laws

unless both sets come in

or you have a bigger family.

Still reasons to get those.

But I just have this sneaking suspicion

that we're going to see over time

a gradual, you know, ebbing of the number

and variation of minivans available in the U.S.

because they have become more expensive

than a lot of the SUV counterparts now.

Previously, that was not the case.

They were the less expensive option.

Now it's kind of moved into this other world.

But, you know, they all seem like they're somehow

caught in a time warp.

Carnival is probably the freshest feeling to me

inside and outside,

probably because of its popularity

still in its domestic market of South Korea.

But Odyssey seems old inside.

Pacifica seems old inside.

I mean, it's still got a...

Or is it 95s?

Yeah, Blu-ray...

That's totally different.

True.

But it's still got a Blu-ray

rear seat entertainment system.

I mean, who's...

Right.

I don't know who's doing that.

Who plays Blu-rays?

I don't know.

Not me.

And it did make me think here.

Part of me borrowing the Pacifica for a week

to give it a whirl and give it a review

was kind of like,

uh-oh, am I going to get out of this Pacifica

thinking to myself,

huh, I have a kid.

I need a minivan.

The answer is no.

Yeah.

And honestly, if you leave a week with a minivan

and you have been one of the biggest pro minivan people

and you go, yeah, I don't know.

I think that's pretty telling.

Exactly.

And with that out of the way,

let us know what you think about the death of the minivan.

And do you still want one?

Do you have one?

Is there still a reason to minivan in 2025 or 2026?

You can send us a voicemail to

heyatautobuyersguide.com.

It's a voicemail on your phone.

Or you can call us at 669-842-1947.

You can also drop us an email

and be sure and give us those five-star reviews

because we haven't had one in about a week or so.

And that fills us all with madness.

I know.

But thank you for listening and thank you for watching.

China is driving safety, tire sizes explained, and minivans aren't all that after all?

Jeep Wagoneer

Tesla Model 3

Nissan Aria

Porsche Taycan

Toyota Prius

Hyundai Genesis

Lucid Air

Porsche Panamera

Audi Etron

Porsche 911

Volvo S40

Nissan Leaf

Chevrolet Blazer

Solterra Soltera

Toyota Grand Highlander

Kia Sportage

Tesla Model

Toyota Highlander

Toyota Crown

Toyota RAV4

Kia Sorento

Chrysler Pacifica

Hyundai Palisade

GMC Acadia

Ford Expedition

Rav4S Hybrid

Cadillac Escalade

Chevrolet Tahoe

Ford Transit

About this episode

Original notes