They’re talking about suspension—how to make the car ride better and handle better. The episode compares stock suspension setups to racing-style setups.
Racing suspensions are designed to keep the tires in the best possible contact with the road under hard cornering, braking, and acceleration. They often use stiffer springs, different damping strategies, and more adjustable components to control body motion and alignment changes.
“OE” just means the suspension that came on the car from the factory. It’s usually tuned to balance comfort and everyday handling, not maximum track performance.
“Tuning” here refers to adjusting how a car behaves—especially suspension calibration—rather than just engine power. Suspension tuning can change ride comfort, steering feel, and how the car responds during cornering and braking.
Car
Chevrolet ZR1
They mention the Chevrolet ZR1 to make the point that suspension feel is obvious immediately. Whether it’s a normal car or a super fast one, the way it turns and rides is something you notice right away.
They’re using the Toyota Corolla to show that suspension feel is obvious right away. You can tell quickly whether a car feels enjoyable or not just by turning a little.
A chicane is a sequence of alternating turns designed to slow the car and test handling rather than pure speed. It’s a useful real-world driving scenario for evaluating suspension response, steering precision, and tire grip.
Bushings are the soft parts that connect suspension pieces. Compliance is basically how much the suspension “gives” before it reacts, which changes how the car feels when you turn.
Pickup points are the spots where the suspension bolts to the car. If those points flex or are positioned differently, the car can feel less precise when you drive hard.
Dampening devices refer to shock absorbers and struts (and their internal valving) that control how quickly the suspension moves. Better damping helps reduce bounce and keeps tires more consistently loaded, improving both comfort and grip.
Term
OE
OE means the carmaker’s original design and settings. When it comes to suspension, the factory usually tunes it for everyday comfort and reliability, not maximum track feel.
Ford is the car company being referenced here. The discussion is about how different engineering teams at Ford focus on different parts of the car, like powertrain versus handling.
Vehicle dynamics is how engineers make a car handle and feel right. It’s about making the car grip the road well and respond predictably when you turn, brake, or hit bumps.
Cayman Dynamics is described as a consulting firm that designs and develops suspensions for original equipment manufacturers (OEs). The episode frames it as specialized expertise in suspension engineering rather than general automotive work.
The Porsche Cayman is a sports car with a focus on handling and driving feel. It’s built as a two-door coupe and is designed to be fun on twisty roads. It’s not meant for hauling people or cargo—it’s more about performance driving.
A K&C rig is a testing machine that measures how suspension parts behave. It checks how stiff the springs are and how well the shocks damp movement, so engineers can tune the ride more accurately.
A leaf spring is a type of spring made from stacked metal strips. It’s often used on trucks, and it helps support the vehicle and control how the wheels move over bumps.
Powertrain is the set of parts that make the car move and send that power to the wheels. It includes things like the engine and the gearbox, and how they’re matched to each other.
The Ford GT is a high-performance supercar made by Ford. It’s the kind of car enthusiasts obsess over, and the conversation here is about working on it during the early development period.
A rotation program is like a structured training path where you try different jobs or teams for a while. The goal is to learn how the whole company works, not just one small part.
Concept
develop something that was that good
This refers to the engineering and validation process behind creating a high-performance vehicle—iterating on design, testing, and refining systems until the final product meets performance targets. In the context of the Ford GT, the takeaway is that the team achieved a standout result quickly enough that it’s still discussed years later.
Traction control helps prevent the tires from spinning when you accelerate. If it’s not there, the driver has more direct influence over how much grip the car uses.
ABS (anti-lock braking system) prevents wheel lockup during hard braking by modulating brake pressure. The host contrasts having ABS with lacking other driver-assist systems, using it to highlight the Ford GT’s more analog, less electronically managed character.
They mean the car feels more like you’re driving it directly, not like computers are constantly stepping in. It’s still modern, but it doesn’t take away the driver’s role.
They’re describing how the car responds in a straightforward way to what you do with the steering and pedals. Some newer cars feel a bit more “filtered” because computers manage things for you.
SVT was Ford’s in-house team that built and developed performance cars. The host is saying the Ford GT came from that kind of dedicated performance effort.
The Tesla Semi is a large electric truck used to move goods. It’s meant for heavy-duty hauling, like long-distance deliveries. Instead of a gasoline or diesel engine, it uses electricity to power the truck.
“Autonomous pods” refers to small, driverless transport units designed to move people around without a human at the controls. Vehicle dynamics still matters a lot here—smoothness, stability, and predictable behavior are critical for passenger comfort and safety.
“Hot rodders” are enthusiasts who modify vehicles to improve performance, often by changing powertrain components, suspension, and aerodynamics. The speaker is setting up a comparison between professional engineering constraints and the typical approach in the hot-rod world.
Suspension geometry is how the suspension is “aimed” and mounted so the tires move the right way when the car hits bumps. If it’s set up better, the tire stays more planted and the car feels more predictable.
This is the basic “suspension trio”: springs hold the car up, shocks control bouncing, and sway bars help stop the body from leaning too much in turns.
“Multi-adjustable” usually means the shock settings can be changed to make the ride softer or firmer. It helps you tune how the car reacts to bumps and cornering.
Think of degrees of freedom as how many “extra wiggles” the suspension has. If bushings and joints are squishy, the tire can shift around more than you want, hurting grip and steering.
Concept
stiffness vs compliance
Stiffness means “doesn’t bend much,” and compliance means “bends more easily.” The suspension has to be designed so the car doesn’t flex in ways that ruin tire contact or steering feel.
The upright/knuckle is the part the wheel bolts to and that the steering system works through. It’s important because it helps determine how the wheel moves and turns.
Concept
track day vs crappy road tradeoff
Track driving wants maximum grip and response. Regular street driving also has to deal with potholes and rough pavement, so the suspension can’t be too harsh.
Concept
OE suspension vs hot rodding/performance tuning
OE suspension is designed for everyday comfort and long-term reliability, not just lap times. Hot-rodding/performance tuning often makes things firmer to get sharper handling, even if the ride gets harsher on rough roads.
Suspension architecture is basically the suspension’s overall design. It determines how the wheels move and how the car absorbs bumps, which affects both comfort and handling.
In suspension design, “kinematics” describes how the wheel moves through travel—how camber, toe, and other angles change as the suspension compresses and rebounds. Good kinematics help maintain tire contact and predictable handling during braking, cornering, and bumps.
They use computer models to test ideas before they build a real car. That way they can try different suspension setups faster and cheaper than building many prototypes.
Formula SAE is a competition where students build a small race car. It’s a great way to learn real suspension and handling concepts by designing and testing a car.
Spherical bearings are joints that let suspension parts move with very little “squish.” They help the car respond more directly, which is great for racing, but they may be harsher and need more attention.
Roll centers and camber curves are ways to predict how the car behaves when it leans and when the suspension moves. They matter because they affect how well the tires stay positioned for grip.
The Shelby GT500 is a very powerful sports car based on the Mustang. It’s designed to go fast and handle well, especially when driving hard. People talk about it in terms of how the suspension and other parts work together to control the car.
The contact patch is the part of the tire that’s touching the road. When the suspension compresses in a corner, you want that patch to stay working well so the tire can grip. If it gets “misaligned,” you lose traction even if the tires look fine.
Hard points are the places where the suspension is bolted to the car. If those mounting areas flex even a little, the wheel won’t move exactly the way the suspension design intends. So the “stiffness” of those points matters for handling.
The roll center is like a “pivot point” for how the car’s suspension geometry wants to roll in a turn. Its height changes how weight shifts from one side to the other. That shift affects grip and how the car feels when you steer hard.
Term
tow curves
Toe is whether the wheels point slightly inward or outward. A toe curve tells you how that inward/outward angle changes as the suspension moves. That matters because it can make the car feel sharper or more stable, and it can also affect how quickly tires wear.
Suspension parts aren’t perfectly rigid; they flex a bit. Those flexes change how the wheels move and how the car rides over bumps. “Compliant characteristics” is basically how much the suspension gives, and how that affects both comfort and grip.
Even if you set up the suspension geometry correctly, the parts still flex a little when the car hits bumps or loads up in a corner. That flex changes how the wheels actually move, so the car doesn’t behave exactly like the “static” alignment numbers suggest. Elasto-kinematics is the idea of accounting for that flex-and-movement together.
“OE” means the way the carmaker thinks about design and testing. Instead of only guessing with computer models, they measure real parts on a prototype to see what’s really happening.
Bushing rate is basically how “firm” the bushing is. A stiffer bushing moves less, and that can make the car feel more precise.
Concept
simulation tools vs physical prototype testing
They use computer simulations first to predict behavior, but they also test a real car or prototype to verify it. The testing helps confirm whether the computer guesses match reality.
Toe change is how much the wheels “point” inward or outward as the suspension moves or loads change. It can strongly affect how stable the car feels, especially when braking.
Concept
toe-in vs toe-out under braking for stability
They’re talking about how the wheels should “point” when you brake. A little toe-in can help the car stay straight and stable, while toe-out can make it feel twitchy or harder to keep on your line.
Pinch welds are strong parts of a car’s body where you can safely clamp or lift it. Using them for testing helps the rig measure suspension movement more accurately.
The setup uses machines to push or move the car in a controlled way, and sensors to measure the forces and the resulting wheel/suspension movement. That’s how they turn “feel” into repeatable numbers.
Rebound travel is the suspension’s “upward” movement when the wheel comes back down after a bump. If it has enough travel, the tire can stay on the road instead of losing contact.
Camber loss means the wheel tilts less in the “right” direction when the suspension compresses or moves. That can reduce how well the tire grips in a turn.
A parallel load means you push with two forces that “work together” in the same direction. It’s a way to mimic real driving where multiple forces happen at once.
Term
opposing direction
Opposing direction loading means you push in opposite directions to separate what’s causing the movement. It helps figure out which part of the suspension or body is responsible.
A subframe is like a smaller frame inside the car that holds parts of the suspension. If it flexes, the wheels can move differently than expected, changing how the car handles.
The Tesla Model Y is an electric SUV, meaning it runs on electricity instead of gasoline. It can feel very quick when you press the accelerator because electric motors provide power right away. That’s why people sometimes notice it moving faster than they expected.
Model correlation is the process of comparing simulation or analytical vehicle models to real test data and adjusting the model until it matches reality. When correlation is good, engineers can trust the model to predict how changes in kinematics and compliance will affect behavior.
Concept
wheel center
Engineers sometimes describe forces using a point on the wheel, like the wheel center. That helps them track how road forces get turned into suspension movement and car motion.
Concept
acceleration vs braking (brakes on vs brakes off)
When you brake, the forces in the car shift in a different way than when you accelerate. Even small changes in those forces can change how the suspension and tires behave.
Concept
four-post vs seven-post shaker rigs
A shaker rig is a test platform that simulates road inputs by moving the vehicle or its suspension. Four-post and seven-post setups differ in how many points they move, which changes how “dynamic” the test is and how closely it can reproduce real-world suspension behavior.
A four-poster is a test rig that holds the car up and moves the suspension in a controlled way. It helps engineers see how much the car body and wheels move under different conditions.
Wheel hop is when a wheel starts to bounce or chatter quickly instead of staying planted. It can happen under certain braking or traction situations and usually means the suspension/tire system is resonating.
A “paint shaker” describes a more aggressive, high-frequency style of motion where the wheels are jerked around to excite the suspension and dampers. In testing terms, it emphasizes dynamic response and frequency behavior rather than slow, quasi-static compliance.
Shocks control how the car moves after hitting bumps. If they’re set too soft, the car can bounce and feel shaky; if they’re set firmer, it settles down faster. Changing the settings can make the ride feel calmer and more controlled.
A suspension test rig is a controlled lab setup that applies loads to a vehicle or suspension assembly so engineers can measure how it responds. In the segment, the hosts explain using it to simulate track loading and cornering conditions, then quantify suspension motion and geometry changes. This lets teams evaluate parameters like wheel movement, deflection, and camber angle without relying solely on on-track testing.
Company
can see rig
A “rig” is a test setup that lets you study how a car’s suspension behaves without driving it on track. You can apply forces and then measure things like wheel movement and angles. It helps teams understand problems faster and tune suspension more effectively.
Simulating loading conditions means reproducing the forces a car experiences during driving—like cornering loads, roll, and high-speed banking—inside a controlled test environment. The hosts describe race teams using a rig to apply those loads so they can study suspension response and geometry changes. This improves repeatability versus relying only on track sessions.
Camber angle is the tilt of a wheel relative to vertical—how “in” or “out” the top of the tire points. Suspension and tire contact patch behavior depend heavily on camber, especially during cornering when the car rolls and the suspension compresses. Measuring camber on a rig helps teams tune handling and tire wear.
The idea is that a car’s performance is only as good as its weakest part. If one component or setup detail is holding everything back, improving it can make the whole car feel better. They’re saying you can find that limiting factor even without going racing.
A sway bar helps keep the car from leaning too much when you turn. Changing its setup can make the car feel more stable in corners, but it can also make the ride a bit firmer.
R&D is the work engineers do to figure out what settings and parts make the car ride and handle the way they want. It’s usually a lot of testing before anything feels “right” on the road.
Caiman Dynamics is a company that works on making suspension setups better. They help engineers figure out the right tuning so the car rides smoothly and handles well.
This is just where the show is aired, not a car or car-tech topic.
LIVE
It is the two guys garage podcast. He's Kevin Byrd. I am Willie being fired up man. Today
we're talking suspensions how to make them better. We're gonna dive into OE suspensions
racing suspensions. I got a cop suspension with cop tires, cop engine, cop car got everything
man. I'm ready to go. I'm ready for this suspension talk. I got a full tank of gas and half a pack
of cigarettes. Yeah. Yeah. Ready rock though. Suspensions matter and we've just learned over
years and years of tweaking the tune on cars. Suspensions especially you know giving old cars
that get kind of a rebirth and reemergence with you know all the rest of mods out there to what
they're doing on the OE level to what they're doing on performance stuff man. I'm anxious to pick
our boy Chris White's just brain and knowledge and resourcefulness when it comes to this
particular topic. Well there is very few other things on a car. I mean we know the big three are
like how much power you have, how big a brakes you got and suspension and suspension is probably
kind of one of the number one things on a vehicle that makes it fun to drive or not you know or
ripping corners or just kind of barely getting around. You know suspension is kind of one of
those things on a car it's like the DNA right. When you get in any car whether it's a Toyota
Corolla or a ZR1 right like instantly right you do and you might even know how all that stuff is
working but you just do a little bit of turns a little bit of this and that get a little bit of
chicane and instantly you know wow this is going to be a fun ride or wow this sucks you know when
can I get out of this thing right and and it's amazing the details that are in there and and
you know Willie you can tune all day long and there's so many different knobs and buttons and
and most of us don't even get into the details of bushings and compliance in various components or
this is you know the vehicle itself or the pickup points is some complicated stuff. Oh dude it's
unbelievably complicated. I mean you just mentioned some of the dampening devices that are out there
and you know how they've evolved over the years you know the it's crazy to think that the think
about this technology the old horse and carriage buggy that's got lee spring technology and up until
you know just a couple decades ago hell in some cases we're still using that technology. I mean
what they came across the great fruited planes on is still the suspension in some vehicles today.
It makes it it makes it seem crazy but in a lot of applications that's the reality of it but
when we're talking performance and talking that soft cozy creature comfort rider used to
in all those you know papo's bux you've been pushing for the last freaking decade or two
you you get that plus soft as you you wonder how that happened where it came from. OEs man they've
done so much of that and really the big sort of difference between how us you know racers and
performance guys would set every car up and how the OE sets it up is uh is wildly different so
we're going to talk a little bit about that and all kinds of good stuff peeling back some
layers today when it comes to suspensions and who can't learn something about this topic.
Yeah no doubt and I'm pretty stoked Chris White he's one of my best friends from
a couple of decades now and and we went both to Ford about the same time you know I went
powertrain he went vehicle dynamics right which is all about how to make a vehicle handle and all
the details in it and he's been doing it for like said 25 years he broke off a number of years ago
he's got some partners they've got a whole consulting firm Cayman Dynamics and all they do is design
and develop suspensions for OEs it's pretty awesome so there's there's nobody on the planet that I
know that's probably sharper than this guy so today's gonna be pretty awesome because for one we get
to look behind the scenes you know like the number of details and the tools and and the modeling and
the simulators and what's a K and C rig you know like we can dive in behind the curtain of how does
an OE do this but also pick up knowledge for right what can we do to you know better understand our
suspension so we know what knobs to turn right that's definitely something you put on a leaf spring
right exactly or not uh we're gonna find out all about it coming up next to the two guys garage
podcast he's kevin bird on willy b get your mind ready because we're learning next all right we're
back after the break it is the two guys garage podcast he is kevin bird i am willy b and fired up
man so i gotta ask kevin you guys showed up at forward about the same time um chris uh how did
you meet kevin and uh is he hey is he really an engineering nerd at ford is he really that guy
come on level with us chris how'd you meet how'd you meet kevin yeah so yeah i've known kevin a
long time um we met in college he was um graduated a little bit before me and kind of paved the way
out into the uh working world and uh landed at ford um right about the same time he made a pit
stop along the way um doing some uh some cool airplane stuff but um both ended up at ford
about the same time and uh yeah i can vouch for him he's he's actually an engineer um actually
really smart and i would say um like he said about me i mean he's he's the smartest guy i know
when it comes to powertrain stuff so totally about he's he's making that up he's making that up
but you know i'll give you a fun fact on chris man um him and a couple buddies got real lucky
joining ford we just happened to be kicking off the uh the o5 for gt and uh for for new hires
as a rotation program and these guys got to rotate into uh ford gt so this guy was on that
program from was it very beginning when did you when did you land in there chris yeah it was pretty
early um yeah like you said fcg kind of time frame so that was like my last rotation on that
program landed there pretty early on like they were only a couple months in and uh rolled off
the fcg program stayed on on gt for like three and a half years which was i mean for a guy coming
from you know i moved to michigan from florida you know always been around cars and cool stuff but
to come to ford come to detroit and land like right where i wanted to be in you know the coolest
program there could be at that time what a dream come true what it was awesome how so how many months
before you walked into ford were you then working on the ford gt um it was a year and a half so i
did three other rotations that were also really cool but um yeah i got lucky and landed in the
right spot at the end yeah not not that cool not as cool as that one not as cool as that one right
so wow so what any takeaways from from that experience i mean i'm sure you know we've talked
so many years um you know all the amazingness of it but anything that kind of comes to mind
of just i don't know awesome memory or what you learned or you know what you took away from that
experience yeah i mean there's so many things i mean it was um i think how how quickly we were
able to develop something that was that good i mean people still talk about that car um and
how great it is to drive um how reliable the things are how much how much you can boost the things
and not blow them up um how great the dynamics are they still look great and we did all that you
know just a really short period of time with a bunch of you know really dedicated gear heads right
i mean it's a small team and i mean everybody there was passionate about about the program and
about cars in general right so i got a question when you're doing this if you were to say you
don't okay four gt that particular application over that evolution of it is the greatest uh
because of what like what's so unique what's different what's how does it stand out from
those supercars what makes it different like in your opinion if you could die on one hill
of the four gt and say this is hands down why it's the greatest uh you know handling machine
or fastest or like what is it for you that you you die on the hill for the four gt for like
what is that thing for you yeah i mean i think that car like it came at just the right time that it's
it has i mean it has abs but that's it there's no other there's no trash control there's no
you know still very analog but modern enough that um that it was it was still very you know it was
very good to drive um you know i think it's still you know it still holds up today as kind of like
the last great analog supercar yeah there you go i didn't know that about it so yeah dude so
beside of being kind of just an amazing car right and he said because you started getting
into cars nowadays and there's so much electronics and stuff it makes you from a crappy driver to a
decent driver it keeps you out of trouble yeah you know but at the same time you just don't have
that same it's you and the car in the road right that same kind of direct connection um you know
it's it's all about what you can do in the car whether you're good or bad right i don't know it
so like i said it's it's a really cool car out of the way it kind of came together the time frame
and then of course it's for gt so it just comes along with this awesome story this heritage this
history you know so it all just kind of comes together in my mind one of my one of my favorites
absolute favorites yeah yeah so this is a lucky lucky guy to to be at svt remember that name svt
that kind of disappeared um in that era right to develop that car um now chris you've been doing
oe stuff for you know since then since like 2000 um i imagine that's probably the pinnacle
of all the stuff like you've covered every ground for so many different automakers around the world
anything close to that probably not i mean but i think the um you know the fun thing since then
you know some other really cool programs afford and then kind of going off um you know with cayman
you know for the last 15 years now um we get to work on a little bit of everything so
you know it's everything from you know normal passenger car and suv stuff to um class eight
semi tractors to three-build auto rickshaws to i mean all sorts of you know autonomous pods all
sorts of interesting stuff right so um yeah i mean for for me as a gearhead yeah nothing comes close
to to gt right but but as an engineer there's been a lot of fun you know interesting programs along
the way to use that as the bar to compare everything to like as far as your challenge your middle
like oh i gotta get that i gotta like like that just because the the bravado around that gt
moniker and the name and the car and the history and you know the movie and all the stuff around it
right i you have all the stuff going on knowing you know what your your hands on with is that kind
of the bar that you compare everything else all these other challenges uh throughout throughout
your time too uh or it's kind of like the marmin it is still something i think about you know in
terms of you know the vehicle itself and then and then the experience and you know lessons learned
and things um during that time period and i mean i was young right like i was only a couple years
out of college and so for me that was a like a that was a really kind of pivotal time in my in
my career like i learned so much during that time period right it's like an imprint for a baby duck
you know like it just stamps on you and you just you know your mom is you know like this is the one
so now i imagine you know when you're when you're engineering you're sitting behind your computer
and you're trying to make that three-wheel rickshaw perform like the gt right you're like
got too many constraints too much cost cutting but i'm trying to get it as fast as the gt the
horse sucks yeah they cut one of the wheels out so let's talk about some of the the steps that
that oes do because if i think about most hot rodders right you've got your car and a lot of
times you're you're looking online and maybe if you got an old car you might get a whole suspension
set up right uh maybe it's got all new arms and stuff maybe it moves some pickup points around a
maybe the geometry is a little bit improved and then it's kind of like springs and bars and dampers
right so that's what most of us do we're buying some things there might be a few radical dudes
out there that are making a couple a arms or you know something a little bit more extreme but
for the most part we've got just a couple of knobs and the shock is kind of a big one if you get
multi adjustable there's lots of knobs on there at the tune but you have right from a clean sheet
paper you're kind of dictating you're thinking in a different space like we try to simplify by
stiffening up everything that we can like all the bushings and joints so we have less degrees of
freedom messing up where the tire actually is but you're looking at the body structure
locally where all the pickup points are what kind of uh stiffnesses compliance as part of how
the suspension is going to react and then you're looking at all the all all the components the
arms and and knuckles uprights and the bushings that are in everywhere and then how the linkages
are going and and you're actually because you have a different task than someone going on track day
right just go fast you've got to balance man i want this thing to go fast but i can't rattle
people's teeth out of their face on a crappy road so you have a whole different let's say
challenge than than many of us who are sacrificing the teeth rattling part and you got so many
different tools so i assume mostly you're starting in the computer space and you start to to model
stuff put stuff in and look at the kinematics like the linkages but then what are some of those first
steps and what kind of tools do you have that people don't even realize are going on in the
background even that how is a oe's perform how so how's the oe suspension different than what
us hot rodders most cars and performance guys like he said we just normally set it as stiff as we can
get it and you know make the contact patches aggressive we can make it and just ride it out
how does an oe look at it different than a performance guy would yeah yeah i mean that's
there's a lot to kind of unpack there but like i think even just starting out like you said kevin
there's a you know there's different we're doing something different than a than a race car right
or a track car we do things that are really really close to a track car right like very track focused
vehicles all the way to you know could she comfortable suvs right so you know just understanding
what the targets are for the vehicle where you want to go in terms of vehicle dynamics performance
you know how how you want to balance ride steering handling and trade those things off to get the
right mix for for that particular customer and then there's lots of upfront work to
to decide kind of what the architecture of the suspension is going to be
you know like you said some of the you know the kinematics the compliances
those those types of things and we're not we're not the people who are putting lines on paper
let's say or drawing the suspension in CAD we're not the the chassis designers per se but we own
the performance of that vehicle from a dynamics perspective when it's done so we've got a lot
input into that stuff so what should those parameters be for for the kinematics what kind
of compliance characteristics are we looking for you know some of the stiffnesses we're setting
you know a lot of the targets upfront and for a lot of that work in the early phases we're using
simulation tools to do that like before we have you know real prototype vehicle you know vehicles
and hardware yeah like in college right we did formula SAE so it's a college engineering competition
and you build like formula one type open wheel car with like a cbr 600 powertrain in it and
there's so light and so low to the ground uh with race slicks and the whole bit i mean it's it's
awesome it's the most juiced up nitrous type go-kart slash mini formula car but anyway you
know back then uh did a lot of suspension design for it and it's all spherical bearings and real
hard points and stuff and and right i looked at all the roll centers and camber curves and all
that stuff right but it's all very static what i'm gonna say static but uh non-compliant right
there's no bushings and things and so what gets tricky is when you're trying to do you know if we
focus on like a GT 500 type or o5 GT or a zr1 right we're really in that performance world where
most of us pretty darn happy on a track you know maybe we would stiffen up a bar or or spring
right a little bit but but even those cars right you're dealing with everything as a spring right
every everything is bending your hub is bending your wheels are bending your tires rolling over
right your bushings and somehow you have to capture every one of those things actually
moving so at the end of the day when you're heavy in a corner right and everything is rolling over
you actually know what that tire contact patch is and you're trying to design everything to move
into that corner uh to still have a good contact patch but as it comes back out you still have a
good ride right yeah and you know i mean that's kind of the well so having i think having control
over all of those all those things so you know unlike a unlike a hot rod or you know me and
my garage working on stuff like there's only so much you can you can do right and you know we've
got the ability to look at the kinematics so you know kind of where the hard points are all the
the familiar things that people know like camber curves and tow curves and roll center heights
and things like that but then we also have control over all the all the compliant characteristics
and kind of what those um how those can affect the performance and that can be both from a
you know a steering handling kind of performance standpoint or or ride and kind of balancing
all of that all of that together because you have to have isolation you know unlike the
formula essay example or most race cars where it's spherical bearings and hind joints and things
you know stiff bushings which which do still have compliance and people get into trouble there
with with race cars sometimes because you've got you know really stiff you think everything is
is extremely stiff because it's you know steel spherical bearings and it's bolded straight to
chassis but you know if the if the hard points if the local stiffnesses of those attachment points
aren't stiff enough um you know you're gonna have you're gonna have compliance in those areas
that are gonna do things change the I'll say elasto kinematic characteristics so big word
change start changing some of those parameters that you're you're used to talking about
in ways that you may not expect because you know things are deflecting in ways that
that you're not able to control or don't understand right yeah and so most of us don't even know
that's happening in our car even when you go to I'm joints and and stuff like you mentioned
right it's just there and then all we're doing is just trying to make the best of it
so when we come back we'll take a quick break Chris man can tell us how from an OE side of
things you actually know what those are some from modeling and predicting but you have some pretty
sick tools to kind of go and measure what is moving and by how much and deflecting because
like I said every single component from that big heavy knuckle to the bearing and hub face to
to the wheel and and all the arms and the bushings and the car itself all that stuff is moving
so let's talk about how you even know what's going on in there yeah man I haven't had this much
compliance talk since I stood in front of a judge and had explained a bad weekend when it wouldn't
arrive but we're back in in just a minute the two guys garage podcast he's Kevin Byrd I'm Willie
B and we're back after the break it is two guys garage podcast he's Kevin Byrd I am Willie B and
when we left our buddy Chris White he was about to break down a a KNC rig which a lot of people
out there listed probably thought it was something to do with barbecue sauce or smoking meat somewhere
outside of a Kansas City cheese game no not the case at all listen carefully we'll educate you
because this is where you know really performance meets the road and and how those OE guys really
go above and beyond so how would you like to dive into it Kev you want to hit him with the setup
well I mean you know the big thing is there's so much stuff moving right so many things are
bending and moving and and you can predict right you got bushings and what's the bushing rate and
how thick is it and and all that but you know at the end of the day man you're you're probably
making some pretty pretty educated guesses but Chris how do you go and confirm all this stuff
this is going to give you tons of knowledge again from an OE perspective because there's
so many more knobs of things that are moving and essentially moving the tire from its perfect
contact patch so what do you guys do what's the tool yeah yeah so I mean like we say before we
can use a lot of simulation tools for a lot of the upfront stuff and do a lot of prediction but
when we've got a physical vehicle physical prototype that we can test or if we want to do
benchmarking of competitive vehicles so if we want to understand what other people are doing
with their suspension systems we can put a car on a K&C rig so a kinematics and compliance rig
yeah and kinematics kinematics is the linkage right so the linkage is gonna go through its
motion on pivots right so as you raise and lower the tire what's the camber change and
and other things and then yeah compliance is what's moving what's springy what's not stiff
right so yeah what does tell us about this rig yeah yeah as all the the geometry stuff that you're
you're kind of familiar with so right all those camber changes toe changes things like that which
are primarily controlled by by the hard points so all those geometry points and then the
compliances are you know how those things change or move with when you start putting force on
at the contact patch or at the wheel center right so you have all the all the bushings in the system
for example if you if you're braking the force from from from braking is trying to push the push
the wheel and tire back in the car with the various bushings in the system you're going to have
changes in in toe for example so you know we can through the you know in the design phase we set up
the geometry and the stiffnesses of the bushings and things to give us a if they have desirable
characteristic for for that example so if you're braking to maintain stability generally you would
like the you would like the tires to toe in a little bit to maintain stability versus toe out
which might give you you know instability and make it difficult to you know maintain your path
under braking so you know we can measure that for example on the on the k and c rig
so how does it work is it grabbing physically locking down tires on four posts four corners
and then moving them around and measuring the displacements and and all that stuff like how
does that rig work yeah so the car is the car is attached to a table essentially so you grab the car
if it's a unibody car you grab it at the pinch welds in four places it's held to held to a table
there's a there's a combination of an actuator with load cells and with depending on which
machine different types of measuring devices to to measure all the angles and displacements
so then you can you can move the whole car you can roll the car you can pitch the car
you can exercise the suspension you know to the full extent of the joneson rebound travel
and then you can put forces like as we were talking about the the compliance stuff you can
then put forces in the you know in the lateral direction and the longitudinal direction you
can do that with the brakes on with the brakes off you know all those different different scenarios
we can look at you know lateral forces you might think about you know in cornering if you've got
bushings in the in the suspension that you're going to have let's say some camber loss right
because you've got you've got bushings in the suspension so we can put a you know a parallel
load on the suspension where both both forces are acting in the same same direction so just
similar to to a cornering load right and measure those things we can put a or we can put a load
in the opposing direction so pointing towards each other away from each other to try to isolate
different different things so if there's a you know if there's a subframe in the system or we
want to look at you know deflection of the let's say the body versus versus just the suspension
we can add you know additional string pots and things like that to you know maybe measure other
locations if we want to see if something is maybe deflecting in the body more than we
more than we would expect or to try to to diagnose things in that way so basically you
can hold the car and reef reef on every corner in every scenario you could possibly want from
right braking cornering accelerating and go wait a minute that's not what my model said
I didn't realize that was moving that much or or you can tweak your model in so now your
your model is almost like matching reality right right so you will you'll use that data you know
we'll use it for understanding yeah how that prototype came out let's say um or you know how
a competitor might be managing their their kinematics and compliance but but like you said
a good use of that is is the model correlation so is this thing like a gigantic paint taker for
for cars like how do you get these how do you get these loads on it whatever and one thing I could
tell you is these kinematics and compliance machines one thing about them as I'm sure I'd
bet my house on it these things are super affordable the way he's describing it I imagine they're
really cheap you could pick one up at your local auto zone uh so yeah I got three I got three one
was on one was on buy one get one half price so I could not go third one you know like yeah that's
right so how is it extruding these forces how do you represent acceleration we can push it either
the contact patch or the wheel center so without getting two two in the weeds about it there's
forces act on forces act on through the suspension in in different ways so depending on whether you
have it's a braking situation or a you know brakes are on versus brakes off or if it's an acceleration
kind of a situation so we can in that case for acceleration we can we can place um
we can hold the tire um stationary without putting the brakes on and we can apply force
in the in the four aft direction on that on that rig and all this is happening slow right like it's
not um you know like it's not actually a paint shaker there is another so there's another um
rig that does that there's uh you know four post or seven post shaker rigs which get into
more of the let's say damper tuning stuff and frequency um you know kind of frequency response
of the of the system but all the k and c stuff is um what we call kind of quasi static so it's all
moving you know very very slowly um when we're taking those those measurements yeah they're
measuring all that stuff but yeah if you think about if you hold the body rigidly and then you
have actuators at each hub those actuators can push and pull and tweak and turn and this and that
while you're holding the body right so you're acting like the road is you know putting this load
in this direction in that direction on any one wheel or all the wheels and then you can measure
what's moving right and like i said like how does it measure like wheel hop i'm kind of fascinated
so that would be different right so that would be like on a like on a four poster
where it's more dynamic okay okay yeah so this this yeah this rig is measuring all that stuff
that's bending and moving and how is it moving and by how much for a given scenario and then
once you move past to the next one where you have let's say stuff more sorted and you got
some shocks and stuff on there then you put it on a four poster where each wheel is just
jerking around and it's a paint shaker and and you can see how everything is responding
more dynamically right what what what is the body moving with the wheels shaking up and down and
so i changed some shock settings and did it calm down and so yeah there's two two massive
cheap right as you said they're really inexpensive super affordable every once you
have one right it's like a bathroom scale like so like a good way to think a good way to think
about the can see the can see part of it or a can see rig is a lot of a lot of race guys use
the can see rig too and they will they will do things similar to what to what we would do in
the oe world and they'll look at all of the sort of all the parameters of the suspension for their
car but the unique things that they'll do will would be like um they would they would put load
on the car to simulate a particular loading condition or cornering situation on on a track
so like think about a NASCAR car right hunkered down on the on the banking
at high speed they know they know kind of the the loading that's going into the car
so they can simulate that condition on on the rig and then look at all of you know be able to to
measure all the parameters that they want to see so you know how far are things moving what's the
camber angle on this wheel how much is this deflected you know those those types of things
so you can do all sorts of cool things like that with you know if you start using them in that way
me my friends have this belief that racing in any form is the constant search for the weakest link
and uh you've just figured out how to do that without racing you just do it in your shop
and then try to tweak and make the weakest link a little stronger a little better and perform a
little tighter so yeah yeah you've taken a racing part out of it yeah the fun part and figured
out how to do it yeah in his shop well we take it for granted like because a lot of these cars
that you buy always they don't perform like you want them so you kind of dismiss how much work
actually went into them but there's so much modeling measuring like the can see rig all
this stuff before they even get the parts on a car to then go put on track and then from there
you think wow man they did all this work ahead of time they must be done they put it in the
computer it's all modeled well there's pretty much there's a huge gap still like once you got a car
you still have to spend weeks and weeks and weeks developing the different bushings and sway bar
settings and shocks and and all that stuff right the normal consumer would have no idea they were
just they're completely immune to to understanding what r&d goes into these cars just to get them
smooth the ride you know into workout like you know there's your tax dollars at work check out the
potholes in Detroit they can swallow it rv they got to get over those somehow with the greatest of
easy not knowing and this is how they're able to do it uh by yeah by going to get guys like
caiman dynamics uh wow man i wish we had more time we're gonna bring you back on and and dive another
layer too deep into uh into what makes these suspensions so unique and and perform so much
better uh than what we're aware of and what we do for our r&d uh how do people find out more about
chris white and what you do at caiman dynamics man um yeah i mean you can just go on our website
caiman dynamics.com um or look look me up on linkedin um that would be kind of the easiest way
okay all right man there you have it uh caiman dynamics what a cool job this guy has going and
and do things at this level man and it's so wild because 99.9% of the people uh outside that city of
Detroit would have no idea what you're talking about and and the ways you guys get into it but
cool to learn can't wait to get educated more make sure you check out our show because we do
well some of the same stuff not that in depth though that's awesome uh it airs weekends on the
Motor Show Network check your local listings also available in Discovery Plus and Max uh
thanks for our guest chris white thanks to our producer scoop senior producer jesson carter
exact producer bob ecker he is kevin bird i'm willy b and this is the two guys garage podcast
yeah don't forget check out our website twoguysgarage.com and we're everywhere at social
at two guys garage and of course the two guys garage podcast is copyright 2025 written productions
incorporated all rights reserved chris definitely way too fast man and i gotta i gotta learn more
i got new things to talk about yeah no worries yeah dude this this guy is uh awesome to grab
beers with because uh 25 years of of uh knowledge crammed into that brain man anything and everything
you could ask it's sitting right in there you just gotta pull it out over another cold one
there you go man like portico all right guys hope you hope you learned a little bit about
behind the scenes in the oe um and enjoy it we'll catch you on the next two guys garage podcast
two guys garage podcast is a production of britain productions for more episodes visit
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About this episode
Suspension gets treated like a car’s “DNA,” and the guys dig into how OE engineers design it differently than hot rodders and track-focused setups. Guest Chris White (Ford vehicle dynamics, later Cayman Dynamics) explains the shift from simple “stiffen everything” thinking to modeling kinematics and compliance—how bushings, pickup points, and deflection change camber/toe under real loads. They break down the K&C rig: a quasi-static test setup that measures geometry and compliance by applying forces at the wheel while the body is held, helping correlate simulations to reality.
Ever wonder how cars achieve that perfect balance of handling and ride comfort? How car manufacturers predict and measure the seemingly invisible movements and deflections within a vehicle's suspension system? Kevin and Willie pick the brain of Cayman Dynamics suspension expert Chris White, diving into the complex world of kinematics, compliance, and high-tech tools used by OEMs to dial in everything from comfy cruisers to track-ready machines.