Remarkable Results Radio Podcast Sep 8, 2025

Developing Diagnostic Skills with Matt Fanslow and Shaun O'Neill [E059] - Speak Up! Effective Communication

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This is the Aftermarket Radio Network.

Welcome to another episode of Speak Up Effective Communication, the show on the Aftermarket

Radio Network focused on our communication and leadership skills.

And I have in our episode today two special guests joining me.

One of them, my brother, Sean O'Neill, the other, Matt Fonslow, fellow host on the Aftermarket

Radio Network.

Both of them are diagnostic technicians, specialists, if you will.

And they have a lot of interesting insight, well, on a number of things, but we're going

to try to talk about the role of diagnostics in our industry and how to help people

get started on a road that I hope leads to mastery.

So we'll hear from Matt and Sean on their earlier days in the industry while they were

learning some of their skills.

And we'll get to hear from them directly.

Before we introduce our guests, I do want to introduce a word of the day.

The word of the day is nebulous.

And we'll define that word for you after we hear a word from our sponsors who make

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Okay, we're back and before we introduce our guests, we'll review the word of the day is

nebulous.

It is a formal word and adjective used to describe something that is difficult to see,

understand, or describe.

In other words, something indistinct or vague.

Diagnostics, understanding the true workings of an automobile and troubleshooting.

It seems very nebulous and difficult and challenging.

And so are the people who master it.

So we'll introduce our guests now.

Thanks for joining me.

Matt and Sean, you are my guests today.

This is a real honor to have you guys take some time out of your busy days to join

me on the podcast you're talking about communication in our wonderful aftermarket.

And we've been in this for a while now.

You two have been inspirational truly to me, dragging me into the whole network really of

people that I now can call friends.

So you're the one that stole them.

They used to be my friends.

I haven't talked to these clowns in a long time.

Matt, you lose.

See, this is the thing.

It has been too long.

I had all these friends and then, hey, this is Sean's younger brother, Craig.

Your friends are with him and not me.

Yeah.

Well, here's the thing.

You two were friends before I did.

So I'd like to start out first off, a lot of people don't even know I have a brother.

I mentioned him all the time.

I mentioned him more than you do.

You do?

That's cool.

At the end of my show.

At the end of the show.

Oh, yeah.

Good.

Yes.

I've heard those.

Yeah.

There's some friendly ribbing.

I think it's friendly.

I don't know.

I'm not there.

I guess.

I don't know.

Oh, it's not about you.

Oh, everything usually is.

Yeah.

You're the hero in the tale.

Honestly, it is fair because I wouldn't have ever gone to vision with Eric Ziggler

one year and gotten to know each other.

I wouldn't have gone to Apex one year.

And it was the first time ever at Apex.

Got plugged in with Matt.

You were there, but Eric Ziggler pulled me into that dinner.

It was a special dinner for a number of reasons.

Harvey Chan was there.

Is that the one where I got she was ready to throw me out the window?

That could be any dinner with you.

Yeah, it doesn't really narrow it down.

Yes, it was.

I think that one was the one where you're picking on the waitress

because she had a very high pitched voice.

I held the wine glass up and Harvey looks at me and he's like,

what are you doing?

See if you can just see if she can shatter it and it just slayed the table.

Yeah, then she was threatening me with a knife.

I don't think it was really threatening.

I just think she was holding it and then was making a decision.

First time I remember going out to dinner with you, Matt,

we celebrated your birthday, even though it wasn't your birthday.

Gibson's steak house.

Yeah.

Yeah, I misunderstood speaking.

Yeah, we all did.

Yeah, speaking of communication, I misunderstood how that ended the song.

They were saying happy birthday to you with a lot of emphasis on the to you.

And it sounded like something else to me.

Sounded angry.

It did. A lot of anger, a lot of pent up frustration from certain patrons, not me.

But that was the best non birthday I remember.

This is the thing.

There's some familiarity here, which I think is important to draw out.

Like, you guys have known each other quite a long time now,

but the way you actually first got connected,

it wasn't even at an industry event, as I understand it.

There were some early events, of course, but there was a Skype, the Skype days

before like social media ever took off.

There was that.

Yeah, the reality of that is that all started on IITN, IITN chat.

That was the birthplace.

And I think we talked about it before in either posts on social media

on other networks and other podcasts where IITN, when I first started,

it was like the creme de la creme because you had the people seeking other.

I hate to say same thinking, more like same wondering,

same searching type of people that they really wanted.

Yeah, I mean, it was loaded.

We could name drop for an hour, the people on there.

One of the benefits, I guess, or features of IITN

was a chat room.

And in there, you know, one day I was just messing around in the chat room, right?

And that's where I ended up hanging out a lot,

like a lot of my time after work was spent in there.

Well, OK, IITN gets popular.

It's a powerful tool.

There's a ton of information in there and they have this tech help section,

which is kind of email driven, where you submit a request for help.

Hey, guys, got this car, VIN number, year make model, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And people would comment like, check this, check this.

I bet you it's this.

This is how you would test this, blah, blah, blah.

And you could search is a very powerful tool.

It was kind of like I identify in some regards, but also less expensive.

So you have people going around preaching the word.

You've got to get on IITN.

Then it starts diluting the pool, which sounds like a major dig.

But it's just the reality.

That's how everything works like that.

If you have a professional sports league and you start out with four teams,

those four teams are stacked.

But if you make it 20 teams, it gets diluted because it has.

Right. That doesn't mean the 20th or the last man on the roster

on the every team is just not worth being a professional athlete.

It's just it dilutes the pool.

It has to. And that's what IITN happened.

Well, that's what social media is becoming to these days.

It's so easy to find.

It's it's not a challenge to find it.

It doesn't take the effort as much to reach out and look for that.

And otherwise, you're learning to diagnose.

And that's where I really think that this is an interesting story

for both of you, is that you and your earlier days of learning

to become truly masters at diagnosing using oscilloscopes,

understanding waveforms, those sort of things happened in a vacuum

for a little while.

Like people were isolated and could not easily get help.

And the network of support, that's what I witnessed when I was seeing

Sean start to really dive into the diagnostics.

And once he found that network of other people

that are learning as well, that's when things really took off.

And Sean, how did you get introduced to it?

Even before IITN, I don't know, Craig, you might remember him.

Jay Meiring, I don't know if you know of me, he sold master tech

scan tools, and this is like late 90s.

I was still in a different place.

Vutronic sales rep.

Yeah, Vutronic sales rep.

And he had a once a month on Master Tech Club would get together.

I think we used to get together at the community college

and he would buy pizzas for a group of guys.

And I mean, he was selling without selling, but he would show

the Vutronics Master Tech tool, which is very similar

like a Tech 2 or something as far as capability.

And it would we never owned one.

We never bought that because it was still an aftermarket tool.

It was powerful on Asian stuff, I remember.

So he would run through some examples of bidirectional controls

and he would pull out an amp clamp and he would show us fuel pump.

Current ramping.

I mean, we're talking late 90s here.

He's like, this is valuable for testing, you know, fuel pumps.

And I was like, I'm still in high school.

I'm just an idiot.

I didn't know anything, but it took a few years of going to those

and him kind of beating that drum for to sink in that.

You can see a lot without there's a lot going on electronics

that you can't can't see, obviously.

And there's a lot more to it than just the digital readout on a DVOM.

That led to like Matt was saying, IETN and other people talking about it,

which leads to, you know, you see people locally to you on IETN as well.

I didn't do too much of the chat like you did, Matt, but it was a lot of

initially I was posting under our dad's name

because the account was under his name.

And eventually then I switched to my own account.

You know, the tech help was fun.

The forums were a big spot where I spent a lot of lunch breaks and after hours.

But then Ryan Coyman, who was a tech at the time before working

at standard motor products now, was just like the top tech in the area

and introduced me to some more like minded guys, some were local,

some were all over like you, Matt.

And that led to the Skype group.

And I don't remember the problem initially.

It was some sort of caravan with the crank sensor issue.

And I wanted to prove the issue and all we had at the time

was a DRB3 and DVOM.

I think we had like a snap on a graphing multimeter as well.

And I wanted to get away from it.

I was like, well, the signal puts out this should be a square wave.

How do I get a square wave?

I didn't know how to set this up.

So led to some forum searching.

It led to a local instructor that did some one-on-one training

that we decided to pay for.

Roland Trowbridge, I would meet him at like five in the morning

for like four days a week at the shop.

We would cover mode six and the emissions like stuff that as a

transmission guy, we don't talk about ever like drivability, secondary,

primary waveforms.

And, you know, we talked about lab scopes and you know, a routine of,

you know, things to check.

And so that led to a bigger world of automotive and just

transmissions and understanding electronics in general.

So he was instrumental for that.

And that just opened the door to more questions and guys like Matt

and yeah, Harvey, back in the day when hybrids started coming on

scene and five gas analysts and all this other stuff that was just

you can go as deep as you want in the industry.

If you find the right people and curious people and guys that have

the same questions and better yet answers and that can lead you

to some resources, this guy's the limit.

Interesting how it's still a handshake business at the

beginning of the story, too, with Jay coming in like that.

It's easy to forget about those components, too.

All of a sudden you start traveling and your network grows

exponentially. Once you're out of conference, become friends with

a few people and then it just explodes.

But we'll call meal fashion, but it beats Facebook or I mean,

I'm not even on a lot of social media.

So those real connections where anyone can share a screen,

they can get on a computer and talk, but, you know, having this

guy hook up to a car in front of us, dropping pizza underneath

the hood of a car or something and just, you know, looking at

things and getting real with it was way more tactile and

beneficial than, you know, just some chat room.

So Matt, your initial for raise into this, too, like I know you

as a trainer and I think most people who know you now know

you as an expert on there, but there was an I listened to your

episode when you were interviewing John Thornton, part

one and part two.

Do you like a tech or something?

How do you land that? That's amazing.

Lots of money.

Oh, hearing John's stuff on the presentation, too, I was

listening to that as like, oh, so good. I would have to

interview him on the same topic, but you did so good.

I won't have to if he'll talk to you do it because that was

important to me because I just don't feel many people really

understood the effort, but also historically put into his

presentations, his education style, just the intention

level. And then I mean, honestly, you have to really

appreciate his wife and kids for allowing him the gift of

his time to us. So he missed out on a lot of stuff to give

us the opportunity to be way better. I don't know. I think

about that and that hits pretty hard. I'm ecstatic that he is

where he is and is able to enjoy it now.

Yeah, I feel remiss and not mentioning him, too, because

there's been a lot of nights and his classes over the

years. He could teach the phone book and you would learn

something. What's his style? His style. The bar I hold all

trainers are truly impressive, but a mentor in those early times

too, Matt, is what I was hearing an absolute mentor. I had read

his articles. He had a column shared a column with Gary

Goms of our service magazine. They called it diagnostic

dilemmas and they would take turns every other month. And

it got to the point where I'd quick look to see who wrote

it. And if it was John, I'd catch it. And if it was

Gary's, I didn't. And that's not a dig on Gary. It just wasn't

my thing. And I know a lot of people with his stuff, Gary's

stuff, and it was very instrumental. So that's

great. Johns, I would read those over and over and over and

over. And one time, I don't know if it was his doing the

magazine's doing. They accidentally put his email

address in there.

The AOL one?

Yep. I had a Chrysler Conquest, which is a rebadged

Mitsubishi Sterion, kind of a sporty car turbocharged, looks

mean, like fast mean. It's killing me. It was just

killing me. And I broke down and emailed him. And he was

so nice to kind of walk me through the process. He

didn't give me the answer. He knew what was wrong with

it. He knew it. He'd seen it before, but he walked

me through the process and I think my wanting to go

through the process helped. So then he helps me

I want to repay him. I asked him if he's doing those

training classes that if I could get him up there, there'd

be a way to get some money in his pocket. And he said

he did. And he came up to Minneapolis. And at that

time, he taught on the south side of the Twin

Cities, Minneapolis, St. Paul, and on the northern

side of the Minneapolis, St. Paul. And he did that

for a few years. And I, of course, went and asked

him to lunch. And he said yes. And a friendship

formed, you know? And man, that's just one of those

surreal things when somebody refers to you as a

friend. You don't want to ruin the chance of a

friendship by saying you're a friend. It's like Sean,

right? I don't go around telling people Sean's

my friend because he'll tell them like, I'm

going to be friends with you for your image. Yeah,

are you kidding? Yeah, it's like the first one

to say I love you in a relationship or something.

Thank you. Right. But yeah, and that's what

happened. And before the friendship really even

just sitting there at lunch talking about cars

really and being working in the bays and then

him just kind of looking at me and going like,

you should really find a way down to Indianapolis

and go to this Linder Technical Services

class. You should go to Guru's school. It's

like a domino effect or a snowball or however

you want to, where just one thing leads

to another leads to another. And it's like

Sean's saying like between IAT and chat,

which evolved into a Skype group and meeting

people going to events and just forming

these friendship zones almost handshake in an

open door handshake in an open door. And then

I get cursed by being introduced to you.

I've always wanted to go to Linder Tech

because I would read the books like

Roland gave me some of the old manuals

like this is amazing training. This looks

great. And I went to go sign up and it

was like they didn't do it. I just missed

it by a year. I think the last one

that's when Bob White kicked off the

Cairn conference was because they stopped

doing the Linder Tech. Yeah, they

reconditioned fuel injectors and it was

a I think a booming business for a while

and then they just stopped using those

injectors and stuff evolves. It doesn't

break the same way and they don't

break hardly at all. And the prices

dropped to where you just replace

them. So all of a sudden that dries

up and you know he was at that age

too or I think it's a lot of work

put together all the events and he had

other interests like racing at the salt

flats with his flathead Ford. That was

his passion. I'm a little more fun than

cleaning the injectors. So yeah, it was

just end of an era but you got an

attempt to reboot that by Bob Hype

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credit card processors. I see a lot of

shops, they're still struggling to have

technicians stay or even come to their

facilities that have the skill set that

you have. I think you guys can

probably legitimately troubleshoot

just about anything that goes down the

road. I don't know if I could, Matt

could for sure. I'm well out of

practice. I can't troubleshoot people.

Matt is working in a repair facility.

Yeah, Matt actually works. Yeah, Sean and

I both have cushy stay-at-home

jobs now. Well Sean, you're managing a

team. How many technicians now? 56 right

now. Two more set to start within the

next month. It's mobile auto solutions.

How many, it's like a lot more states

than it used to be. I have Michigan,

Ohio, New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland

right now. Wow. Yeah, I just remember

when, hey, you're going to be the

Michigan manager. That was it. I think

I know somebody that lives in

Maryland. Oh, could use someone in

Baltimore, man. Mike Marshall?

He's in Maryland. I thought he was

New Hampshire. He's New Hampshire. That's

so close over there. That's an inside

joke. Oh. It was kind of like Brian

Pollock and. He would drive. Yeah. It's

like an inside joke. I don't know why.

Yeah. I think you have a lot of those.

I just entertain myself behind the

sleeve. Well, here's the thing and

this is what I'm seeing because when

I'm working with shops, it's usually

on like software and all those sort

of things, but I get to meet a lot

of members of the team and I see

a lot of shops have, they're really

good techs, but they don't get to

develop the skills the same way I see

you guys having started out and I

think it's a shop problem. I really do.

I think like we can send people to

these events. They can meet people

like you now. They can go to courses.

They can learn a lot of really great

stuff in there. You can even equip

yourself with the tools, but I don't

see the shops creating the space

for you to practice the new skills

because time is money and money is

time and it's a hit on

productivity when we have to let you

learn. I was going to say it was a time.

Never mind space, but what's the

motivation for the tech to do it?

You start getting into like case by

case situations and stuff like that

basis is that I don't know

everybody's the way they're operating.

You know what I mean? Everybody's a

little different, but a lot of them

are the same. And are they running

really thin margins? And even if they

aren't, then is it, I want to be

careful how I say greed because I

don't want it to necessarily come

off nefarious. But you're trying to

make the most you can, you know, make

hay when you can make hay. And as quick

as you can. I empathize with that, but

it's also a short-term thinking in

that there has to be a certain level

of investment for tomorrow and the next

day and the next day. And that is

empowering them to kind of do a little

bit of research, try different things

like okay normally I would diagnose

this circuit with this test tool,

you know, but I really do need to learn

how to use this other tool. So normally

we use a tesla and a voltmeter.

Fine, that'll work, but I need to learn

how to use an oscilloscope because

down the road someday that is going to

bail me out. That is going to be the

way.

Yeah, we learned that slow. I was on

the wrong end of that curve. Initially

when I was service advisor and Sean

was trying to learn those skills,

you can empower a technician all you

want to go learn these things, but if

you don't emancipate him

from other responsibilities or other

pressures,

that stuff won't happen. And I feel like

we were just so bad at it in the

early days and it caused a lot of

frustration.

And there has to be a mutual respect

for it. The tech has to respect the

time. Like you can't sit there and go

I'm on hour number three messing around

and messing around, maybe not the

right word, but still. We're

practicing on productive

three hours. Please understand that is

taking advantage of what they're trying

to gift you here.

So now can we find a happy medium where

this is legitimate time spent to try

to learn how to access this ability

is there a way to compensate

to come in after hours or stay a

little bit later? Well, I feel like

that's what he ended up doing right

Sean couldn't do anything eight to

five.

Oh, it was terrible. I feel like we

didn't recognize this early on to family

business dynamics, but your wife and

kids too have felt it.

Roland had a saying and it was

an hour extra beyond your working

day. An hour extra you could learn

something new or maybe kind of

maintain what you have and grow a

little bit. You know two hours extra

a day

you start to progress and

become more proficient and expert in

something. But if you spend three

hours a day or more on something on a

topic and learning it

then you can truly master it and

I guess the moral of the story is it

takes time of your own initiative to

do something then

and we have to be fair to the

customers. Like it's not fair to

expect the customer to pay for our

learning on the job either.

So what do we do and

we both hit it already. I mean really

it is an investment.

Every business is in the business of

being a business so they have to make

money. I get that

but you know we like to compare

ourselves with the medical community.

We're practicing working on colors

too. You said practicing, right?

But you know we don't have

malpractice insurance and when we have

a comeback on something you know it's

coming out of our pocket.

So where's the middle ground?

Look at these poor guys that are

flat rate working at a dealership.

You know they get

point whatever point three to

diagnose a intermittent

whatever on a new car that's under

warranty. So there's no carrot

there for them to

necessarily and spend the time.

What's the payout for them to

become a master of figuring something

out quickly if they're only going to get

three tenths for it? Problem somewhere

in this assembly we can just replace

the assembly having easy sell there.

Yeah that's so common.

As a boss or a manager or a shop owner

do you want a bunch of idiots working

for you either? I mean I don't think

so. So you have to give them room to

grow and equipment to succeed and

then hopefully just hire people with

a drive that want to

better themselves and spend that time.

You guys have always heard it said

all the time too. What happens if I

train them and they leave?

Yep. What happens if you train them?

What if you don't next day?

Yeah exactly.

It gets back to short-term thinking

and even as a tech your pay plan is

probably based heavily on production

so the reward is crank it out.

Okay well if you're doing some

dyag and you do like doing dyag

that could be a very short window of

opportunity because if you don't

continue to train yourself some way

somehow both you know through a

learning situation either online or

in person all that like education

itself and then on the job like

putting this stuff into practice.

I don't get an opportunity to use the

my scope a lot but when I do I need to

take advantage of that or I need to

take a few minutes to try to do that

and start to assimilate this into my

process and get better and better at it

and I know I keep picking on scopes

but there's so many other things

like just paging through scan data

just scrolling through scan data just

looking at it and trying to figure out

what it all means and how it all

works together and are you going to

figure it out on that car? Probably

not but over time and then also your

own time interacting with people like

Sean or however many other people or

you that's important. So one the

short term thinking is if I don't do

that my window of cranking out the

hours on dyag is short because in

the future I won't be able to because

I don't have the skill set I will

be heavily reliant on databases or

people bailing me out or guesswork

or we just ship the car and keep the

stuff I can do trying to come in but

those numbers keep dwindling so it's a

short term plan. The other thing is

back to that respect thing where the

business management needs to respect

the tech and the future while future

planning as well as the tech has to

understand what pays the fricking

bills. So right profit that's all

there is to it however that's

generated and at what level all

that is case by case. But there's

ancillary benefits you know

customers trust you and getting it

right the first time less spending in

parts and other things too so there's

an upside in taking a little more time

to figure out. But as a manager

can I have the awareness of this

person is worth like I see that spark

I see that thing right that they want

to learn that that drive. They've got

the initiative. The initiative, the

desire, the passion, tenacity

whatever I see that the

determination why don't want to squash

that out how do I perpetuate that and

is it having conversations and I want

you to take time to do a little bit of

this not a lot can afford it but we're

going to do what we can and then if

you're going to spend time after work

doing these things you're going to

bring that car back in and read

diagnose it in a different way or

you're going to sit on platforms

whatever that may be actually

learning maybe it is Facebook maybe it

is online training from whatever

vendor map auto tech something like

that that I understand you're taking

your personal time to do this and I

want to respect your personal time

so can we meet somewhere in the

middle because you probably should

invest some of your time to be

better at what you do but I don't

want you to invest all of it

because I also respect that and you're

helping me in the long run and I

want you to be a part of this

long term now is it hey take a few

hours off early on Friday

you know or every other Friday leave at

noon or whatever it is just come to an

agreement it doesn't have to be

specific you two can come together and

understand what it is and then maybe

some of the other techs are going like

oh hey that seems like a sweet deal

why do they get that

well look what they're doing they're

coming in after hours they're staying

till six seven o'clock at night

re-diagnosing a problem to learn

how the system works better

so I want to perpetuate that

and then they're like yeah I'd rather

just go fishing well that's fine too

it's not a dig

yeah the lunch is yeah Sean I know you

were doing that a lot too

yeah I'll eat my lunch at my desk

watching a video or some just in

time training or whatever

two birds one stone you got to eat

and might as well take something in

while you're doing it

and Sean and I were so spoiled

spoiled to have the access to the

people we had access to like

right there Harvey Chan right there is

Aaron Kepin right there is I mean

our phone call away Thornton

manna like it the name goes on and on

above we had access that Coyman

that was a terrific resource for

soul long bomb heart like it just

keep going spoiled

drop the names just bring back some

memories spoiled well that's the

thing I feel like that sort of

culture is still there

I think that it's just

somehow we aren't as deliberate

in cultivating it the way that we

had to be in the past and this is

actually one of those things that

were technology will atrophy some of

those muscles for us and this is a

communication podcast right we talked

about this all the time and

deliberate communication versus

this automated or the easy access

or you just happen to scroll because

we're doom scrolling and then maybe

you found something helpful

but how many times you go on facebook

to learn and then you end up

wasting two hours I mean like

things are good until they're bad

I deleted facebook recently

while we're talking about

communication straight up you got

large language model chatbots that

are getting better and better and

better about taking like the first

wave of customer contact

and yeah oh the upside is now my

service advisor doesn't have to deal

with that they can focus on this

other stuff and I get that that's

reasonable but also you're paying

a price you're going to pay a

steep price and the same goes where

when we start seeing probably not

large language models but

machine learning probably a little

more into diagnostic those specialized

models yep exactly it'll be trained

for that purpose yeah correct and

that's an important designation or

a thing to understand is that they

are very focused they're very good at

what they do that one thing

well they're going to see more and

more diagnostic decisions taken out

of people's hands and therefore that

muscle that ability starts atrophying

so we already see that with training

on whatever using a lab scope

people if they don't get to do it right

away after class

at atrophies well the same thing's

going to happen if you don't have to

figure anything out anymore

it walks you through the process or

gives you a probability map

and you just replace parts based off

that

now the systems doesn't work it does

no idea what's wrong with this car

and you haven't had to figure

anything out for six months now

what yeah nothing's even unexpected

anymore

so you're watching people using the

large language models for

communication at the front desk

yeah we're already getting worse at

writing emails now because it does it

for it

they can't be what they mean

not to use it for that

all the mistakes are mine in an email

those are

those are genuine

yeah that's how you know what's

yeah you don't you hit me on the

apostrophe here for the yeah it's like

who you want to put the apostrophe

it's like i don't know it's an extra

keystroke

god's comma man

to have my grammar quick guide here to

know when to even use it so

now i think you're hitting it right

though matt because i'm already starting

to hear people like yeah well why would

i want to invest so much in learning

that skill when pretty soon this is

going to do it for me why would i want

bother

it's such a misnomer you know i see so

many people and actually people that

are looked up to because of either

their

educators presenters trainers or uh

even in the industry itself as

they're just looked at as experts

and they're spouting off that

what pick your large language model

chat gbt gem and i rock

yeah so many of them

it's like oh they're like google on

steroids like no no no they're not

they're not even a little bit

i mess with the gems and gem and i

and we have to you have to feed a lot

of information to be able to do what

you are hoping it can or turn it

into so it's a process to educate ai

even into shaping what you want

the prompting requires some talent

itself

in this stage yeah you can spend as

much time trying to feed it enough

information to write whatever it is you

wanted to write it just wrote it yourself

yeah dude i ran into this the other

day working with it

chris challenged our team to leverage

ai more because it will be a necessary

skill set for a modern workforce to

know how ai tools work

but it's not easy and it's not always

fun and sometimes it's a little

heartbreaking when it does things

that you enjoy doing better than you

no i refuse to let it communicate for

me that communication needs to be

intentional for sure

can't automate relationships is what i

keep hearing no

i mean

automating google apps scripts by all

means i'll write some software with it

because i can't write software and it

can

you know if it screws up i'll feed it a

better prompt to do what i want to do

but i don't want to

this is not ai generated conversation

you know i that scares the hell out

of me someone being a deep faked

and

or video called or

whatever it's a legitimate fear

i have

yeah i can't explain it's here

i've tried to explain to my parents

that someday they are going to get a

phone call from one of their kids or

grandkids

who are in dire straits

yeah it's really a terminator they

need help they need help

fast and they need money

they're so sorry

it will sound just like them

Sarah Connor and they're yep and my

and explain to my parents you're

going to have to hang up

and call them back or text them like

is everything all right

yeah that's a real good tip

one of the things i wanted to bring

for this conversation was

where you guys are at right now

matt you're teaching in front of

classrooms of really skilled

technicians

very rarely

ah i see this all the time

at the events i go to

all the time at those events

it's because matt's not done work

all the time 10 of the time

at least every march

they keep having me back i don't

know they

have to raise

raise their standards

yeah and shawn

you're working with people daily

you're doing it from your home

you don't have to really travel

we never see you at events anymore

we do need to fix that

i should be don't say that

my boss here is i should be traveling

more and getting the stores

but it's

i mean i live in spreadsheets

and we try to get the industry

we fight industry issues all day

and trying to get places to

understand the complex technology

that we're trying to address

and fix it in a manner that is

safe for everybody

it's a constant evolution

and constant conversation can be

had

that's

it's the world i live in now

i'm not arm pit deep into some

tranny fluid anymore

although some days

you still miss it right

like sometimes

some yeah of course

yeah

then we go visit dad for a minute at the

shop and

yeah i don't miss dealing with the

general public

that's for sure

being on the bench was great

you know if someone comes in

and you have to go take a road test

and you're trying to

you're

in the middle of the valve body

you know yeah

that's like tough

are you still mentioned mad

or getting a scope

yeah

but you as a tech get

to work on one thing at a time

finish that thing

oh that's great

that's very fulfilling

that's more immediately fulfilling

than anything else

instant gratification of problem

fix solution

and happy customer at the end

hopefully

so that's

yeah are you still wrenching mad

at all

or hooking up a scope

i mean i haven't

wrenching very minimal

but on cars every day

for the most part

the reason i hesitate to say all

day every day

is just because you guys saw my

makeshift laboratory

we saw the microscope behind you

yeah

that segment of my world

is growing

i don't want to blow it

out of proportion

like i don't want to sound

like i'm on certain levels of

like a tommy aliva

and those guys that are

really doing this a lot

but the module level type stuff

has been growing

making used modules work

on different cars

repairing modules

or instrument clusters

which i mean their modules

at circuit board level type

stuff has been growing

because there isn't a new one

available

or the new or reman

is cost prohibitive

something of that nature

that has grown exponentially

i still don't want to imply

it's even every day

last week was every day

every day i had

something to do

this week

maybe not so much

every day

but a couple times already

so i'm doing stuff on cars

and fixing cars

or are diagnosing more so

i'll figure it out

and then somebody else

fixes it

and then more of the electrical

but i think that's cool too

i like to think that's where

i would be if i was still

actually attack

but especially in transmission

world because that's where

we do a lot of it

yeah and a lot of our industry

is very at least

our company

you know very oe centric

and but we did a lot

of aftermarket fixes

at the transmission level

to shift kits

and other

sonics modifications

and everything else

to try to improve

or fix a problem

short of replacing

something with brand new

so you know i used to think

back in the early 2000s

that you'd have a

2002 four tourists

it's like

all right

it's just a car now

someday somebody's

going to want to restore

this thing

like that 55 bell air

that somebody brought in

although a tourist

is not a bell air

i'll give you that

but what's someone

going to do

if they want to restore

this car in 30 years

and you can't because

nothing's real

it's just everything

it becomes junk and scrap

unless

unless somebody can

take a chip out

swap a module around

and make it work again

and we're seeing it

on cars that are

like 78 years old

yeah it was just scary

right so

really does a 30 year old

car

i forgot to mention

not like it's a big deal

but

shan probably get a kick out

of it is

i'm probably doing

three to four

eight us calibration

and i mean cars

good for you

per day

so some cars

are a single calibration

summer

you know

yeah well when you want to

do that full time

all the time

you let us know

i'm sorry i'm always

hiring just of it though

isn't it shan

because the

the type of people

that you are trying to

hire

in the line of work

you're in with

it's clean work

high tech work

eight us work

and that sort of stuff

the demand is so

significant that

you always need

someone there

and the skills

are not always

currently there

is that getting

easier yet

or to train someone

from scratch

or is it still

you need this

it's getting

longer to train

someone from scratch

which because

there's just a lot

of nuances

especially when

you take into

consideration

collision repair

there's a lot

different than

mechanical repair

yes

but you're beholden

to a lot of

procedures

that the OEMs

want you to do

that don't seem

related to

maybe

the loss

or the repairs

that brought

the car in

you know

a car could have

a rear end hit

and the structurally

repaired

well that might

trigger front end

calibrations

or maybe an alignment

triggers

other calibrations

you know

in the mechanical realm

we took something

off we put

something on

that required

programming

or that requires

a relearner

or what

you know

it's very

related to what

we touch

and the collision

world it's harder to

teach that

because you have to think

big picture

you have to the

pull a lot of information

pending on the OEMs

because

no similarity

or common ground

between OEMs

and there's different

documents

and resources

you have to pull a lot

of information

on every car

that you're working on

and consider

the repair

and the loss

and

repair plan

effectively

so that

it's tough

but I'd prefer

to take a

mechanical tech

any day

someone that

can diagnose

someone that

think their way

through a problem

maybe knows

how to read

the repair

procedure

yeah

if you can read

service information

and you can

follow steps

I mean the

the calibrations

are just procedural

but you need someone

that can think

at a

high level

to take it all

big picture

and

put it into a

repair plan

follow that through

that takes a long time

to teach somebody

that

even when they're

an ATEC

master certified

mechanical tech

which not everybody

which is fine

but

you know

we have

the world

at our fingertips

there's

so much service

information out there

and resources

that

you just have to know

what questions to ask

and you can find the answer

if you can ask

the question

yeah

then you just ask

chat GT

and then

you would

yeah

Sean

I'll probably reach

through the screen

and choke me

but

a lot of

like the calibrations

themselves

when they go

well

go normal

go as expected

they're easier than ever

oh yeah

when things don't go well

yeah

now what

now you gotta

kind of understand

what it is

that is trying to do and

I'm telling you man

ADOS

the auto repair

business or industry itself

is kind of the wild west

but ADOS

is the wild west

major wild west

there's

there's a lot of companies

doing it

it was

it was the new and sexy

thing for a while

and

you know

when there's new and

sexy and

unregulated

you know

the world's

their oyster

for making money

and

eventually the insurance

companies catch on

as we've seen

invoices from

vendors that charge

crazy amounts

for

no real proof

to what they're

doing with things

so it's scary from that front

but

back to the mechanical

you know

we see ADAS

technicians

we've hired

technicians from other

ADAS companies

and

it's harder from that perspective

because they're

you know

the keyword in ADAS is systems

you know

advanced driver assist

systems

so that's why

I love

hiring

techs with a mechanical background

because most of them at least

have some sort of systems

understanding

their drivability guys

yeah heck even if you're slinging

brakes and doing heavy duty

under car work

you still know more about the systems

that are interacting

with the front radar for

you know

they're applying brakes

they're applying power to the engine

or cutting power

I mean

these things truly work with

every other system on the car

you have to understand the systems

it's not

just the radar that we're

worried about calibrating

it's how is it working with

the whole car

is everything working the way it

should

because you have a problem

in one system

the customer complains

that their safety systems are

disabled

well

it's that evap code on the Subaru

that just disabled the eyesight

and then park assist

and everything else

I mean it's a

task-cating system

of failures

so you have to understand

we've done some

weird crazy

diags on

complaints that were

ADAS related

but had nothing to do with ADAS

at the end of the day

yeah it's rather nebulous

yeah

active drill shutters

yeah well

it'll be in airtimes

and

yeah yeah

but these stuff will throw a wrench

in typical shops

day

all the time

that they're typical

maintenance shops

maintenance repair

and service

and they have these sort of things

I see it so often

they're just chasing their tails

on it

and no one's there to

do it

except maybe they have a mobile guy

they call

great

and that's great business

for those guys

point is

sky's limit right now

for the guys who understand

the whole systems

and I think

it's opportunity

yeah

and

we're barely

barely scratching the surface

on stuff that

so very many

have no idea

they have no idea what's coming

they have no idea what's already here

well and how old are some of the cars

that are

that people struggle with

here's

struggling on

three four five six

real cars at times

try doing a calibration on a vehicle

or justifying the calibration

with an insurance company

on brand new

twenty twenty five

twenty twenty six models

and the manufacturer

hasn't updated

their repair manuals for the car

yeah

I mean that's the kind of crap

that's

that

shops body shops

some mobile text

and you know

mechanical stores

that are

working closely with body shops

and see

brand-new cars

that's the kind of crap

people are feeling

well are a critical

calibration or measurement

that's buried

in service info

like the manufacturers themselves

even for their own

self-interest

don't make it

widely

known to their texts

and the public

I think it would help

the image of everybody

if they would be

very open about

any collision

that's beyond cosmetic

these things have to be done

and

sure radar calibration

camera calibration

we have to measure

the steering column length

sometimes that's

readily available

and easy to show somebody

that this is required

sometimes you have to sit there

and dig

and find it

right

I had a shop ask for that information

one time

one time only

it's brutal

why not make some of this

very

easy to get to

not just for me

of course I wanted accessible to me

I wanted accessible

to the vehicle owner

so they can go to the

car manufacturer website

and see like

they weren't lying

okay

they're not trying to pull one over on me

this is required

by the manufacturer

I can see it there

plain as day

a mission statement

or something of that nature

yeah

transparency has been the issue

that we're talking about all the time

I deal with digital inspectors

are showing people

their actual condition of the car

or like

what about transparency

and that sort of data

so that we can communicate

regarding the complexity of these systems

and the things that we need to deal with

yeah

100%

I feel like that is a job for AI

right

like this data needs to be somewhere

train the AI

how to access the data very very quickly

and

that'll free up some time

that's where it'd be pretty

that would be where it's good too

it would be

but we should all be able to prove

whatever we're doing

like I

from believer

prove it

like my favorite customers

back in the day

were

you know

I had two customers ever that says

well

prove it

how do you know

that this needs this

you know

all right

one guy had a worn down

Camel

well I can show you the

insulator

transparency

I can show you the waveform

and explain it

you know

people that say

prove it

I love that

and

we in the

collision industry

you know

a lot of

people will bag on the insurance companies

because they're pushing back on stuff

well

they should be pushing back

a little bit

they're just saying

prove it

why is it needed

there's nothing wrong

when someone says

prove it

we should all be able to

prove something

yeah

see

see that's what I was trying to say

back in the day

when you said it

it was a bad computer

and you were still learning

how to diagnose

and I said

what are you going to check

if it's not the computer

yeah

what's next

well I don't I

I don't know

let's start here

if we want to sound really

professional

we would say

it's evidence based

yeah

what's the evidence

evidence

the current information

I have right now

I need a new part

to make sure that this part's there

yeah

justifying your findings so

yeah

that's what

factory service

manually replaced

with no good part

that's the step I'm at

we have to be honest

sometimes

it is cheaper to just slam

the new part in

than it is the test

it just

that's the reality

I saw how to misfire the other day

I told him

to swap the coils first

see if it moves on the cylinder

and

hey that gets you going quick

in the right direction

Swaptronics

is a test

that helps with park assist

sensors that help with coils

that is a test

move it

did the fault move or not

it doesn't fit everything

but when it does

why bash it

it's legitimate

that's where the beauty of

of knowing

you know

not

you know

trouble trees are trouble

at times

right

in the end results

always the same

you know

replace part

and

but

once you have systems

understanding

you create your own

trouble trees in your own head

there's shortcuts gain

there's lessons learned

and you're a fool

if you don't apply all those

so why wouldn't you swap

those coils

why wouldn't you swap

that park assist

sensor

see if the fault moves first

why would you go

testing

for different signals

that every

kind of at the connector

and every connector

related to it

or compared to

no good

and when

you have no good right here

just

that's a valid

it's valid

we got to be efficient

and that's the thing

is like

and I think you guys

hit this really well

I think

shop managers

are in the middle

of a difficult scenario

of client expectations

and technician needs

that's tough

and it feels like

oh sometimes

you're going to create

some conflict in the shop

just because we aren't

really making a plan together

on how

I can even package

and present what you want to do

in this particular scenario

complex or not

with this client

and make it in a way

that's fair and easily

repeatable

whatever it is

this is where the

time and the effort

really has to go

and my advice

has always been

managers

service advisors

should go

to tech training

with the techs

on occasion

not every time

it gets expensive

but I think they need

to understand it

some of my

you know

the biggest

mechanics are mechanics

technicians are technicians

you know I

it's

some people are

good with dealing

with people

and some are

but

you also can't have

somebody who's just

a great communicator

blowing a bunch of smoke

up someone's butt

just because

they're dealing

with the public

and they're a great public

speaker

you need to

take the complex

and make it simple

and John Thornton

was a great example of that

I mean

he was teaching

a bunch of

newbies

and

guys who didn't go to

college

or maybe didn't graduate

high school

how to fix a modern

high tech car

because you could take the

complex

and make it simple

that's not easy

you have to understand

something very deeply

to be able to do that

and relate it to people

and and I think if more

service advisors

could do that

communication would be

a little more effective

reviews would go up

because

oh this way

this person explained it

wonderfully to me

they could prove it

and either

I feel very safe

and comfortable with

you know

Matt Vanslow

fixing my car

you know that

kind of thing

it's

nobody says that

yeah that's not really how

everybody says that

yes absolutely they do

I'll drive them in the

apolis just so you can

change my oil for me

you might forget to put

the new stuff down there

I know you know more

about viscosities

and oil ratings

than I do

I can rattle off

all that stuff

I don't understand it

thanks for doing this

with me today guys

it's been great to have

you guys in

well sort of like

at least the same virtual

studio

if not the same room

someday

we'll have to remedy that

we will

not a dinner

that's just awkward

with Matt

only if it's his birthday

and it always is

I want that free dessert

Matt always brings the free desserts

keep me entertained

so I don't try to

entertain myself

and then

that's the problem

that's good stuff

awesome

well Matt

as a fellow

podcaster on the channel

thanks for taking some time

about your busy day

to join me

and as I happen to

return the favor

sometime

when it's convenient for you

Sean

anytime

I think we do need to

talk about actual

broadcast

because you used to do

the radio

showing some amazing things

yeah

I know

I don't know if I could answer

too many

technical problems anymore

yeah that was the auto talk show

so it was a call-in show folks

and the one thing that we try

not to do on the phone

or the shop

they tried to do on the radio

we talk about

what the problem

could be on their car

yeah

there's a real

dichotomy and

personality split

we have to enforce

yeah

worked out well

yes

you guide them to a good shop

we can refer

and it wasn't always our own

but some of the ones in the shop

then the area

people smell that BS a mile away

I know I would

you can't be self promoting

now always works better

when you can

can point to someone else as an expert

nice stuff

you just ripped that off from

Miracle on 34th street

nice

any final words for today guys

fabulous

I thought

yeah

yeah it's a might as well end

it the way we started

full circle

no idea what we're talking about

yes you do

awesome

well hey thanks so much guys

and thanks everyone for listening

to the show

I'm sure you enjoyed Matt

and Sean

if you have something to add

please reach out

speak up at

Craig O'Neill dot net

we do appreciate hearing from you

and we do appreciate hearing your

topics that you'd be interested in

hearing on this show

and remember to listen up on the

other shows on the aftermarket

radio network

Carm Capriato is a remarkable

results radio

then there's this one

diagnosing the aftermarket A

through Z with Matt Fonzlo

and because he's here today

I'll be nice

it's a good show

I gotta actually tune into some

podcasts I think

I'm missing a lot

yeah F is for Fonzlo

in his show

but then that's a good one

I'm gonna use that

ah you should

then business by the numbers

with Hunt Demerist

the auto repair marketing podcast

with Brian and Kim Walker

who I will see next week in Utah

looking forward to that

and coach Chris Cotton

on the weekly Blitz

thanks again to our sponsors

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About this episode

Matt Fanslow and Shaun O'Neill share their journeys as diagnostic technicians, discussing the evolution of their skills and the importance of effective communication in the automotive industry. They reflect on their early experiences, the role of networking through platforms like IITN, and the challenges of mastering diagnostics in a rapidly changing environment. The conversation highlights the need for shops to create space for learning and the balance between productivity and skill development. Their camaraderie and mutual respect shine through as they explore the complexities of modern automotive technology.

Renault Master

Original notes

Thank You To Our Partners The Institute, AutoFlow, Shop Dog Marketing, In-Bound, Express

Watch Full Video Episode

In Our Episode Today:

Many of our loyal listeners have heard me mention my older, little, brother Shaun, or you have heard me jesting with host of Diagnosing the Aftermarket A-Z, Matt Fanslow…

Today you get to see us sit in the room and have a genuine conversation!

I notice in my day-to-day interactions with aftermarket professionals, that many of the businesses I interact with are lacking a real diagnostic specialist on their staff.

A diagnostic specialist is one who can troubleshoot complex electrical, mechanical, or hydraulic issues using advanced tools, resources and experience. The value of their knowledge to ensure repairs are done right the first time, earn the business revenue based on knowledge, and save your clients money by preventing unnecessary repairs, is undisputed.

Why are there not more of these types of specialists in our industry?

How might communication skills play a part?

Are networking skills a critical factor in developing other skills?

When you hear Matt and Shaun talk about the investment in time, both in the shop, and outside of it - to develop their skills - some will be energized, some may feel dismayed - but the path is a bright one for those who are willing - and we will hear in this conversation what worked for Matt and Shaun as they began their journey - and we get to hear a bit about where it has brought them now.

In this conversation you’ll hear:

Times of sacrifice outside the normal hours
The need for creating space to practice new skills in balance with demands of business
The impact of mentors
The value of adopting a learning mindset
Some valuable caveats if you find yourself at a dinner with Matt Fanslow
Shaun always trying to hire people to join MAS - because he just can’t not.

The WOTD is a fitting one for the diagnostic backdrop:

Nebulous.

adj.

A formal word used to describe something that is difficult to see, understand, or describe—in other words, something indistinct or vague.

I know you’ll enjoy listening to Matt and Shaun! Because of their early friendship, I was led to events and networks I would likely not have found on my own.

I’m grateful for the opportunity to share this conversation with you now!

Sincerely,

Craig O’Neill

Thank You To Our Partners The Institute, AutoFlow, AutoLeap, Shop Dog Marketing, In-Bound, Express:

The Institute at WeAreTheInstitute.com. "Stop stressing over your business, you deserve a good night's sleep. The Institute’s coaching helps you achieve success and financial peace.

AutoFlow at AutoFlow.com. Your partner in technology, Autoflow consolidates your client interactions - before, during and after the visit to a single thread. Learn more at Autoflow.com

Shop Dog Marketing at Shop Dog Marketing.com. "Want to see your auto repair shop thrive? Let Shop Dog Marketing be your guide. Our customer-first approach, combined with AI-driven creative content, ensures top rankings.

In-Bound at CallInBound.com. Cover your communication needs and revolutionize your auto repair business with AI-driven call analytics from InBound.

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