Does Porsche Still Need To Build Sports cars?

Welcome to the Porsche Club Insider, your one stop for all things Porsche and PCA.

Here's your host, Vu Gwin and the Insider crew.

Welcome everyone to episode 186.

We are coming off of a fantastic weekend celebrating PCA's 70th anniversary.

We're out of PCA's national office today to my right to have Manny Albin, our technical

director, Rob Sasse, our panorama editor and of course at the controls, Damon Launey, who

puts all this together and make it possible.

On this episode, we'll be covering what we saw and what we did at the open house.

We discussed portion needs to make sports cars to survive and we'll update you on

portion news and all things PCA.

I want to make sure we thank our presenting sponsor, Pirelli.

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Thank you all for listening.

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How's everyone doing?

Doing great.

I see, you know, last time Rob was here, he was an independent Rob.

Oh, yes.

And now he's married Rob.

How does it feel, my friend?

Congratulations.

It feels great.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

So, anything changed?

Do you feel different or?

No.

I think you kind of let yourself go.

I was going to say.

You shaggy looking today.

You forgot that we have a camera here.

She hates that, by the way.

Great start doing things that she hates.

Well, we had a fantastic event here and regions across the U.S. and Canada celebrating

PCA's 70th anniversary.

It happened to coincide with our annual open house and boy did people show up.

Yeah, considering that we had it not a conflicting but a adjacent event happening right after open

house at the Hunt Valley Porsche, they were doing also a celebration of PCA 70th anniversary.

So some people are a little uneasy about being able to make both events, so they chose

one or the other.

But wow, we did not.

There wasn't any open parking spots and it filled up so quick.

My friend asked me, what time should we be there to get a parking spot in the circle?

And I said, I think of myself by 9.

By 8.30 we were almost out of spots.

The quote of the day was Paul Gentile walked up to me and he goes, what time does this

10 o'clock event start?

Because he was here, I think he was here at like 9 and he was, you know, he was

not in the back of the back of the back row seats, but yeah, his car was not front

and center.

There were people here so early.

Kind of strange because there's no precedent at PCA events for people getting there early.

Yeah, right.

And in the center row, somebody pulled up with a GT4 RS and all these spaces were actually

spoken for.

I had to explain to them, but yes, you have a GT car and yes, it's a GT4 RS, but

this poker game, you need to encourage GT or better to get in and there was some

nice machinery lined up in that row.

Thank you to you, Manny, and to the volunteers who coordinated and instructed

everybody to park nicely.

I know also around the circle, we have to have everybody back up their cars and for

whatever reasons, a lot of people in our club don't know how to back up their car,

at least in a straight fashion.

It's very difficult.

Well, we've done this long enough for the listening.

It's literally a circle that we have before you enter our cul-de-sac, our business

park and usually we're tractor trailers do a turnaround when they realize they

can't go in the business park with their tractor trailers.

So we line these parking spaces up ahead of time because there's no parking space

that's pre-lined, so you use tape.

But I tell the volunteers, I'm like, don't randomly put cars in parking spaces.

You've got to start at one end and then come around the corner because if

you randomly put them, people angle differently and then you're really

messed up parking.

I said, I think we've done it long enough that we understand.

Because somebody else asked, well, you can put more cars in there.

I'm like, then you can't pull the cars out.

People can't back in.

I said, trust me, we've done this long enough.

It's not our first rodeo.

And it looks fantastic.

We had the two doors and the cul-de-sac.

We had cars across the front.

We had an adjacent parking lot.

I would say we had roughly, what, three, three-fifty people?

At least.

Yeah.

And man, the tent was full at all times.

What's interesting is that they're all taking osempics or something's

going on because of that record turnout.

We had so much food left over from Mission Barbecue.

So I'm guessing people...

I'm like, where is he going with this?

I'm guessing people to go for seconds or something.

Well, are there any in the fridge?

Well, yes.

There is.

There's some here in the fridge.

There's three trays of barbecue chicken.

The pork and the brisket are gone, but...

I know what it is because some people left their...

The chicken and sausage are left.

I think we order the same amount for the same expected number of people,

but because a good number of people left early to stage their cars at the evening event,

I bet you we had the reason we had leftover.

I blame it on osempics.

Brought to you by our favorite weight loss cars.

Speaking of cars that came out, I want to thank the folks, one, the quote-unquote

special cars that came out for us that we reserved spots for.

We had the Carrera GT.

We had an ST.

We had Chip Riker, it's a 904, T7 RS, Trivacar, Bob Miller with the GT3 RS4 here, and then,

and then, and then.

I mean, there was just so many cars.

I can shout out to Dan Zadra and Steve Wood who were my main parkers in the morning.

I didn't have to worry about anything because these guys know how to park cars and how

to help PCAs back into spaces, and they were very, very quick as soon as cars came in to

get them situated.

But yeah, like Rob was alluding to, a member showed up, I think it was his first open house,

and when he started driving by, you immediately think it's a tribute car.

It was an RS, and I figured it was an RS clone, but it still looked really good.

It had like nice patina to it, and I pulled him out of the line.

I said, why don't you park in front on the curb, and they were going to send

them to the main lot in front of our office.

And turns out this was a real RS lightweight that I think was a storage for, did you hear

Damon how many years?

Was it 30 years?

30 years.

It's got a French license plate on the front.

Yeah, I forget how long, but yeah, it was in storage for a while, and he had the

pictures in a booklet that he had on the windshield.

I belonged to some farmer, bought after a race, super low kilometers.

Had all the rally stuff on it, all the lights on it, and you could tell it wasn't like brand

new stuff because it had like vintage tape still on it, holding the lights together.

I think whoever was the original contact of this car was reaching out to the farmer

for decades to say, can we buy it?

Can we buy it?

Finally, one day he broke, and they managed to be able to scoop it up.

But like you said, Manny, it is all original with super low mileage and being an RS lightweight.

The beauty is this car is not too far from us, and the gentleman that now owns it, as

owns us well, some other cool cars that we're going to get in-depth video review

with it.

So that'll be all fun.

Wow.

Yeah, so if you've never been to the open house just to give you an idea of what

it's all about, is once you get there at quote, unquote, 10 o'clock and park your car,

we have breakfast donuts, coffee, we have merchandise from various events that will kind of blow

out sale.

We have a huge 30 by 60 tent where you can just sit, relax, catch up with friends.

Then we do tours of the office.

We do three tours.

Yeah, we don't do it.

That's the Vogue one.

It's the Vogue one.

Reality tour.

Yeah, exactly.

Every tour is different because I remember different things on every tour.

And then people hang out for lunch.

Mission Barbecue always does a great job for us.

And then people continue to know we have a DJ and right around 145 we handle raffle

tickets and people go home with great prizes such as set of tires.

And I will thank Michelin for donating the tires for that.

People get tons of stuff from Griot's Garage.

We gave away waxing kits and books and yeah.

So it was a fun time had by many there were some.

I was so surprised to see how many people came from far away.

I saw people from Connecticut, Wills from what Ohio, Damon?

Indiana.

Oh, it's from Indiana.

Yeah, it's from Indiana.

We had folks fly in from Las Vegas, Nita and John Burroughs, they came in from

Las Vegas for this.

I'm like, really cool.

Very cool.

But like I said, it was September 13th was officially PCA's birthday and a lot of

region had incredible events themselves.

We're trying to collect some photos and stories and we'll share what they did a little

bit later.

How was the Porsche Hunt Valley?

It was an interesting, it was a great event.

Two posts of the general manager put on a great spread for everyone, catered drinks and

whatnot.

But it was kind of funny because they also had a display.

But because it was the food that was inside the dealership, the dealership was air conditioned.

Most people stayed inside a dealership instead of going out to the parking lot to look

at the cars, which in our open house, we didn't have a air conditioned dealership.

So people were forced to be looking at the car.

They had to go underneath our tent, where we had our parade store stuff.

So same amount of camaraderie but without the car, they were all inside enjoying it.

I guess maybe if they had gone to the open house, they had enough of being out in the

sun because we did luck out in the weather.

It was perfect.

It was not super hot, but definitely dry and plenty of sun.

Very nice.

Let me see.

Before we get into what Porsche needs to do to make sports cars survive, I'd

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Let's get into this question that I've been seeing quite a bit online.

Are we thinking that we might be able to solve this problem?

No, we don't get paid enough to, although, you know, when Rob and I were talking

on Monday, it's no secret that there will probably be a dedicated Porsche CEO by the

end of the year.

Yeah.

Oliver Bloma will probably stay as head of Volkswagen, but I think the investors are

calling for a separate CEO just for Porsche, so that incoming CEO is going to be put

with an interesting task of he's going to be taking over a company that is, like

many other automotive companies reeling from the Chinese, I don't know what you

could, not decline in sales because they're selling EVs in their cars, they're just not

selling other brands, all Chinese.

A market shift.

Market shift from foreign cars to domestic EVs, exactly, and so we started talking

about it and whether or not a Porsche's future for sports cars looks a little bit grim.

It's not something that we're really excited about.

Did we think we'd ever be here again?

I mean, seriously, you know, I think a lot of us thought and probably a lot of people

in management thought too that the early to mid-1990s were maybe the last time that

Porsche was going to be facing a serious challenge, and here we are again.

Well, I mean, businesses always have to evolve, right, and the consumers also evolve and change,

and I think back in the day in the 90s when they were primarily a sports car company,

they needed to bring something new to the table to be able to survive and evolve, right?

And so now the question is, is a sports car part of that equation?

Does the consumer want Porsche or can they be profitable at the size that they are now

as a sports car manufacturer?

And that's a tough question to answer because as you know, their number one seller is a,

you know, the SUV, the Macan, right, or was a Macan, and that's what people are buying.

Of course, us enthusiasts that are probably listening and at the table here

want them to make sports cars forever. And what I would say is we need to kind of root

for Porsche to figure out what is it that they need to do to be able to still make

sports cars for us enthusiasts.

So to clear things up, Porsche is going to keep on making the 911.

They've said that they're going to try to keep it ice powered as long as possible.

We're seeing that with the hybrid. They're continuing. There's no talk of the 911 not

being ice powered, but is the 911 enough? Because I think what when Rob said,

do we ever think, see ourselves here? I was thinking even a couple of years ago,

because a couple of years ago, we were under the impression that the Macan,

Boxster EV would swoop in and we would see how awesome it was and how much better and

would be an easy transition. But then when that battery company went bankrupt,

it really slowed things down. And I haven't heard anything about an exact date of when we're going

to see a Cayman or Boxster EV. I don't even see him testing on the at the Nürburgring,

which gets me nervous that something going on that we haven't heard yet with that car.

You know, I guess that transition that we were hoping was going to be available for the sports car

enthusiasts was important to us. Yes. But again, what's the market? What does the market want?

Does the market want a EV Boxster Cayman? And is it enough? I would say that it's probably

not. They need to make this next SUV projects or projects to be successful, to be able to continue

to do sports cars. Right. I mean, I can tell you what the market doesn't want. And that is

anything that the enthusiasts want. I mean, there's no quicker way to lose your shirt

as an OEM than to listen to the enthusiasts because we're such a small vocal, we're

opinionated, we say, this is what you should build. This is what we want. They do it,

and we don't buy it. And nobody else does. I would say that we don't always buy it. I mean,

we do buy it, but I just think as far as the volume of what enthusiasts are buying,

it's not enough. Right. Right. When you have the market shift change from

the volume of China, an enthusiast's purchase is not going to make up for that shift.

Right. But I think to Manny's point earlier, we refer to Porsches as a sports car company, but in

fact, what is it? Like 80, 20? The sports cars? Like 16%, I think. Yeah. Less than 20% of their

output now is sports cars. So I think the question Manny's asking is, are the sports cars

essential to the portion mystique? Do you always need to have a 911 and the GT cars

with that mystique and that halo filtering down to everything else? I mean, Porsche always

says that no matter what segment they go into, they are going to field the sportiest entry

in that segment. But is it essential to have a 911 anchoring that?

I think so. I think the brand that we all love is you have to have that sports car in

there. The question is, do they keep their business model the way it is as large as it is?

Can they operate with just a sports car? And I think the answer is no.

Sports car meaning two-door sports car. But yeah, so something's got to change in

this equation. Now, honestly, as Manny said earlier, I would not want to be in that seat

to try to figure this out because it's not just understanding what your consumer wants to buy,

but you also have rules and regulations from multiple countries

that's going to allow you to produce and sell said cars.

So the reason for those listening, the reason why Porsche stopped making the Boxster came in

gas version was because of these cybersecurity rules. And at the time they just made the

decision that they were going to stop making it, their plan was to bring the Boxster EV,

slide that in like I said before, and everything would be hunky-dory.

Because they made the decision, they completely stopped developing the gas version,

much like they have with the McConn. They've stopped developing the gas McConn and focusing

just on the EV. But the timelines didn't, you know, match. And so you just can't say,

well, just keep on making gas-powered Boxster and Kamens. It's over. It's an easy decision.

It's not the way it works. And, you know, we've heard recently in the news, they're coming out with a,

the rumor is a front-wheel-drive SUV, which I'm sure will be a VW or Audi-based.

We'll see if it's front-wheel-drive, front-wheel-drive-based, but I don't think I've seen anything

saying we're going to have a front-wheel-drive SUV, just the platform will be. So I do want to

say that. Yeah, well, I mean, that's what I'm reading is that it will be. What are we talking

about? Like a Porsche Tiguan or something? I mean, essentially, yeah, front-wheel-drive-based,

but probably all-wheel-drive. It's got to be something fast. They've got to come out with

this. An existing platform. And it took them a while to convert a McConn, which, you know,

everyone was saying, that was just going to be a Q5 worn over. But you saw how much work they

put into that to make it a Porsche. Right. But so I don't know if they can move that

fast to make this other fill-in SUV. Yeah, just lift the Golf R, call the kid.

Well, I'm getting this feeling that the front-wheel-drive-based SUV that Porsche

is allegedly developing at this point or reported to be developing or looking into,

it just sounds very un-Porsche-like. Like if Porsche thinks that they should have engineered

the first-generation McConn from the ground up because it was too much to convert the Audi,

what was it, Q5 into a McConn, then what are they doing with the front-wheel-drive?

They're going to have to do more or just send it in as a partially baked product,

you know, that satisfies sales but not really anything else. And then we have the look of

desperation and panic. And we slam by the critics immediately. They do something like

demon says, it's not really a Porsche because the enthusiast will come right to tell everyone

in his brother that this is just a warmed-over. Does that matter, you know, if the people who

aren't enthusiasts buy it but it keeps the company afloat? I'm not sure if it's a good or bad

thing but I probably wouldn't buy that. I would say it's a good thing. That's why, again,

I just, it triggers me when people try to hate on, you know, cars that are not completely the

enthusiast cars. Like we should all be rallying that Porsche makes a decision and the car that

they build is going to be successful because it will save the rest of the company and save the

enthusiast cars. I think the reason why people say that is because Porsche has an

elevated brand, because they have that mystique, that I would argue that Mercedes and BMW no

longer have. And people are afraid that that mystique will disappear because they're going to

a quick solution, lower-priced car. I get that, but if they don't have a quick solution,

it's definitely going to disappear because there won't be a company. That's what,

is that going to be enough, you know? Is it the short-term solution going to hurt a long-term

goal? Because to me, without the Porsche mystique, then what do you have, you know?

Well, I know, but it depends. Where does the mixed heritage aspect of things has always been

tricky and complicated for Porsche and, you know, the three of us sitting at this table

know that pretty well. You know, 914 owner, 914 owner, 924 owner. So we're all kind of

experienced with these cars that were either joint ventures or started out as somebody else's

project or something, you know? And there was pushback in the market early on. 40 and 50 years

down the road, you know, the cars are loved and well-regarded, but, you know, that's not

going to help them. So, you know, I think you all have points. I think a warmed-over Tiguan

will struggle in the market. The Porsche mystique is worth something. They have spent

a lot of effort turning Porsche into essentially a very valuable luxury brand.

But, you know, I don't have an answer. We had this conversation in the past three

and four years ago and we talked about what they need, a true entry-level sports car.

And I don't believe that anymore because I don't think there's a market

for an entry-level sports car. I just don't think that, you know, the 20 and 30-somethings

who, you know, might have, you know, between 30 and 40,000 I spent in a car

are going to buy something frivolous. You know, they need a crossover that does everything.

Yeah. And that's what I was going to get at is, like,

the younger generation, do they look at two-door cars, especially

two-seater cars as not, how do you say, not only not practical, but something that they don't

necessarily put in high regard. And they'd rather have a four-seater,

hot hatch or a SUV that will perform like a two-door sports car because it's,

you know, well, I mean, that's a, you know, I think that's the idea. And I'm not seeing

it's a lack of enthusiasm. I'm just saying that kind of a simple fact that wages haven't really

kept pace with inflation. And, you know, 30, 40 years ago, you could have a two-seater sports car

and something practical, you know, in your 30s. And I don't think that's the case right now.

I don't think it's a lack of enthusiasm or desire. I just think it's, you know, this

is where we are. You're saying that the crossover, like Macan, will make the enthusiast happy, the

current, the up-and-coming enthusiast, if you will, as well as better or as good.

No, I mean, I wasn't joking before. I mean, I think, you know, a porcified Golf R,

you know, would be a really good compromise. When I think of, you know, people are always

asking what's your one-car solution. And, you know, Golf R is a pretty compelling thing, you know?

Golf R is too small for today's world. For most people, I think, I love a Golf R. I don't get

me wrong. But I think for most people, a Golf R is too small. Just like your E90 wagon,

your E90 wagon is too small for most families. I'm going to push back a little bit and say

that a Golf R is the perfect size car. It's just that most people don't believe that

because they go and buy a bigger car and think they need it.

It works for Europeans with families just fine. And, you know, you have to get creative.

I mean, there's a rooftop carrier on my E90 now.

Too much work. Too much work. Wow. You got to go strap on an extra box for the top of your car

and worsen your gas mileage.

Yes. Don't you have one for your minivan?

That's when I go on trips.

When I go on trips.

I was going to say, yes, that is exactly what you do.

That is what you do.

Because that's how you save $15,000 getting a small hatchback compared to an SUV.

That's what the rest of the world does.

That's not what the American does.

But that's not Porsche's customer base.

Yeah.

And I agree with everything you're saying. And that's very true, but Porsche's customer

base isn't up and coming to the growing family, if you will.

Right. Not anymore. I mean, 50 years ago, it might have been.

But not now. I don't know what they did.

They clearly put a lot of their eggs in the basket of the Chinese market.

And now, I think 29% of their dealers have shuttered.

And by 2026, I think it's going to be close to 40% are going to be gone.

So that's huge.

Let me throw this into you, because it's always in the details.

We can talk about design of cars, what type of cars, dot, dot, dot.

Just think about from the materials and logistics of what they've been planning.

Because of our NDA, probably find out about cars what maybe two, three years in advance.

But I'm guessing planning at least five years in advance.

If five years ago, they were thinking they were going to go all electric.

They build the facilities.

They make all these contracts with batteries.

They do the frame, whatever, whatever, is to build these electric boxers, Caimans.

Now they're having to pivot.

How do you pivot that train that's been planned on coming for five years?

The quickest way to make that plan change is to see what's existing out there.

Like, I don't know how you would do it otherwise.

But that's why they're coming out of this, it's not confirmed as a tick one.

We're calling it a tick one type SUV because that's a quick solution.

They're not stopping EV.

It's just they're not making as many EVs as they thought they would be five years ago.

That was part of the Chinese market fallout.

But the factories aren't changing over to gas powered.

It's all EV, full steam ahead, not just for Porsche,

but for every other manufacturer in the world.

It's coming, whether you like EVs or not, they're coming.

So now they have to, as you say, pivot.

And in any business, you've got to find another source of revenue

to make up for what you're losing at the China, which is significant.

So that's going to be the interim SUV.

On the lighter side, they've got a lot of really good parts bins to borrow from.

I mean, we don't see them in North America, but you've got Seat.

They're sub brand CUPRA.

You've got SCOTA in addition to Volkswagen and Audi.

So there is a lot out there that they can dip into.

Or can they just build more 911s?

Because right now, there's a long wait for 911s.

There's not 911 sitting on dealer lots waiting for people to buy them.

So if there's that big of a need for sports cars, what I worry about,

I guess from a selfish point of view, from the club point of view,

is this gap of not having the mid-engine car, the affordable sports car.

How many years are we going to go with this gap?

And that's going to affect our club down the road,

because you're going to have this gap of affordable sports cars that we can buy used.

And that's how we get our members.

Most of our members, I would venture to say, are buying an entry-level Porsche, which is a used Porsche.

What was the... I think you learned this at a recent trip with Porsche, Rob.

But what's the median income of a 911, new 911 buyer?

The median household income for a new 911 buyer is $849,000.

The median income for just any Porsche buyer is $749,000.

And so the interesting thing about that is what a seismic change that is from 30 or 40 years ago,

when in the early 70s, engineers, pilots, architects,

people who were making the equivalent of a $300,000 income today,

the upper upper middle class, it was about 40 or $50,000 back then,

that was kind of the bread and butter of the new Porsche world.

And those are people now who are shopping CPO cars, if they're shopping Porsche at all.

So a lot of eggs in the basket of people beyond the upper upper middle class and the Chinese market.

I wonder where we are.

I wonder if the average or median income of households who bought the 718s,

maybe not a GT4 RS, but like a base came in and some of the more regular models is down a bit

or is lower than the 911.

You have to think it is.

It has to be, and those numbers are definitely skewed by a few 911 STs in a mix.

Yeah, exactly.

But it's a big number.

Yeah, because the way I see it, I don't think in 2025 or 2024,

let's say 2024 when both the 718 and the 911 were there for a full model year,

a 911 would have been a much bigger stretch.

Let's say same income.

It's a much bigger stretch to buy a 911 than it is a base or S718 Boxster came in.

I could see myself doing something like that if I were in a different position,

maybe had one car have been saving my money, I'll splurge on a Cayman S, but it seems like

just splurging on 911 isn't really possible for someone who might be in that.

So that's what worries me is that, yeah, as many said, there's no car under the 911.

And whether it's your taste that you may not prefer on 911 compared to a minivan car or

money, it's not there.

And yeah, it just it feels weird not having a sports car.

Yeah.

I mean, it can't afford not to force a segue, but it could have been, you know, one of the cars

that we talked about prior to this was the concept car that they dumped on everybody in

Porsche Unseen, the 904 living legend or whatever the, you know, the V2, my favorite car,

which I still think that Porsche Sonder 1, you know, is, I think they're making it.

I think somebody has supplied them an XL1 and it's someday that will be an actual car

that drives around.

I would love to see it and I love this car.

I mean, even though it's, how old is it now?

Is it like 12 years old?

2013 is when they actually did the concept and it used the VW XL1 just as a recap.

It's a fuel economy minded vehicle with a diesel hybrid.

Right.

But this version, the Porsche version has a Ducati V2 with 200 horsepower.

Exactly.

That revs to 12,000 RPMs.

And it's about 2,000 pounds.

It's actually less than 2,000 pounds, I believe.

For like a carbon fiber.

Once again, the Vempic will help us because your personal weight will

affect the performance of this car.

Yes, it will.

Right.

But I mean, again, my view of Porsche has always had a tortured relationship with

entry-level cars anyway.

And my view of the viability of an entry-level sports car has evolved and changed

over the last couple of years.

But I love that concept.

It's beautiful.

If they were to build something that was outlandishly gorgeous like that,

but just happened to be somewhat affordable, you know, is it going to appeal to people,

you know, who are sort of entry-level buyers and to people who could afford GT cars?

I mean, once in a while, that you do capture lightning in a bottle.

Porsche did it with the Speedster.

You know, it was the loss leader, 29.95 or whatever it was.

But people loved the car.

That was like 75 years ago.

I know.

It doesn't happen often.

But I don't know.

But I mean, that car to me is something that could capture some of that because I mean,

it's ridiculous.

And the one thing I think people lose sight of is the fact that I think this is a quote

from the Jaguar founder, Sir William Lyons.

It doesn't cost any more to make something beautiful.

And I think that the Porsche's entry-level cars have always been kind of hamstrung

by the feeling that, you know, you kind of make it slightly less gorgeous or

than the more expensive car.

But, you know, I think if you did something like that,

you would get people from all over the spectrum in terms of what they can afford.

I agree.

It's beautiful.

I would be an instant seller.

I don't think it would be an entry-level car though.

Unfortunately, it is so beautiful.

It would be for everybody and the brother would want.

It would be like the Miata when the Miata came out.

Everyone wanted one and they weren't selling for less price.

Well, you know, I think that's if they're in that position where they're selling something,

you know, that, you know, the 986 when it first came out.

I mean, there was a markup on those in the very, very beginning, right?

I think like anything new.

Yeah.

Because people wanted to be the first one on the block, but they wore out fairly quickly.

Yeah.

But I mean, could you do something like that?

I mean, this is where I have zero engineering background in a way that was kind of modular,

where you had the entry-level V2 Ducati-powered 12,000 RPM screamer.

You had a battery EV and you had one with a flat six.

I mean, you covered a lot of bases, you know, with prices that range from 45 grand to 100.

Is that something, is that viable?

Not under 100, I don't think.

I mean, I don't think that's even Porsche's market anymore.

If that car came out tomorrow at 70 grand, I think there would be takers,

but I don't think it could save the company.

There's not a volume in sports cars.

Yeah.

I don't think it's a matter of saving the company because the company's going to be saved by SUVs.

Right, right.

But as we said at the beginning of the conversation, you have to have sports cars.

You've got to have the sports car mojo, you know, that's, you know.

Here's an interesting thought that I don't think came up in our pre-podcast discussions.

Porsche used to be hired by different manufacturers to tune their cars.

Audi, Seat, I believe, Skoda, Volvo, I believe, had some cars.

All right, Harley-Davidson, Mercedes.

Audi-Davidson, Mercedes.

Yeah.

I wonder, could Porsche get back into

doing some like a Porsche special for other manufacturers?

I mean, again, they could, but it's not going to say, I mean, we're looking to make for a big

deficit.

And that's what I'm trying to, I'm trying to think in their minds of what do they need to do to make

up for that big deficit?

I think the interim SUV, hopefully, will make up.

They need, they need that ice, that gas-powered sub-icon.

My concern is just that the brand isn't sacrificed because they got to maintain

what got me into this brand, that mystique, that Porsche mystique of what graduate people,

what makes people addicted to Porsche, what is that passion.

So I went to our friend AI and I asked Google AI, what is the Porsche mystique?

And they did a pretty good job of giving me bullet points.

Engineering and innovation, Porsche, I think when it's safe to say German engineering.

Motorsports success, 100% absolutely, they always have to stay in motorsports

because that's what people equate.

That's what I did.

Endurance racing is what I always thought Porsche was famous for.

Timeless design.

I agree also because you can't tell, the average person has a hard time telling

Cayenne years apart.

McConn years, the different generations, 9-11s.

We can for little cues, but the rest of the world thinks it's all one easy evolution.

Performance and drivability, same way.

We love to make fun of some Italian cars because

they're so hard to get into or they have so many nuances and what not.

Porsche is practical, yet efficient and craftsmanship and quality.

So all those things that make up the mystique.

And I think the motorsports part is why they can never stop making sports cars.

Right.

Will it be the core of their business?

No.

But they have to keep on making sports cars and hopefully more than just the 9-11.

Yeah, I agree with you 100% on that one and not to make fun because I'm also a long time,

a longer time BMW CCA member is where I feel like BMW over the last couple of decades have gone to

making, they kind of went away from the enthusiast side and went from the two, three,

four, five, six, seven, eight series cars.

Right.

And they're all.

And then the styling got horrendous.

And the styling and it just kind of became.

Which they seem to be correcting.

So mainstream that I think the mystique of a BMW has fallen and I hate to say it because

I'm not trying to pick on them, but I just say it to emphasize the fact that we don't want Porsche

to get so broad in what they are offering and so vanilla that the brand and the mystique goes

away.

BMW had to do that though because it was just BMW.

They didn't have a Skoda and Audi of Volkswagen, which is the one thing that I've always found

kind of interesting is Porsche doesn't necessarily need to compete in the seven passenger three row

SUV market because they have Audi, they have Volkswagen to do that.

But for whatever reason, they seem to have gotten a little bit of this kind of BMW

feeling where if there's profit to be made in a segment, we're going to be in that segment.

So what if I told you that they were considering a three row Porsche SUV?

Would you be for or would you?

Well, they already announced that they are.

I mean, I mean, that's not a secret that they've been working on for three years.

And it's one of those things where I just consider it as a.

Well, I guess they need to do this to keep keep themselves a business.

I can't they just move more Q sevens.

I don't know.

I mean, they're going to say that it's going to be the sportiest three row SUV.

And and it may well be.

But I don't know.

I know they'll sell.

That's the crazy thing is they'll sell.

Like I saw more recently, the the BMW M.

I think it's a six or seven series SUV that has like crazy horsepower, just like the the

Cayenne turbo GT like to me, those cars did not even make sense.

Initially, but they're hot.

People love them.

And you know what Porsche will say?

Like I would.

I think Calvin told us he said they sold more turbo GTs than they did boxers.

That's crazy.

It was in 2023 or four, which blew me away, not Cayenne's turbo GT.

Yeah.

The most expensive Cayenne they made, they sold more than boxers.

So yes, I know Porsche listing.

I know we love to talk to talk.

Sometimes we don't buy the cars.

And people would are speaking with their dollar their wallets and buying the SUVs and not the

sports cars.

But they still need the sports cars to keep that brand alive to keep.

Otherwise, then people can easily decide between all the other brands because it's all going to

look the same.

Right.

I mean, the loss of the the Boxster in the Cayenne might not hurt terribly from a financial

standpoint, but but to your point, just the fact that they are in one

less sports car segment is.

So I do want to say it, I feel like we should be clear that the 718 is temporarily gone because

the EV is not ready yet.

They're still producing the EV and developing it.

We hope there hasn't been a lot of yes, they haven't announced anything.

They're stopping.

Yeah, the last news we had was that the battery manufacturer went out of business

and obviously they're looking for a replacement because they were

having the special battery maker.

I think it was going to be sitting in the middle.

They wanted to keep that mid-engine feel.

And I was super excited about it.

And I still am.

Yeah.

I'm dying to drive this car because I think it may be the first EV sports car.

That's truly.

Well, it's going to be the first EV sports car since the Tesla Roadster.

Let's face it.

I can't think of another one.

Right.

And it's not just about speed.

It's about the driving experience that that makes it a sports car because there's

lots of fast EVs.

Right.

Oh, no, I have complete faith in Porsche engineering that they're going to just.

Right.

And I think this Tiguan SUV will also be impressive.

I don't think they're just going to slap a Porsche badge on it like a Volkswagen did with the

the Voyager, not the Voyager, the caravan called it there.

I think it will be a I'm sure they're working hard to give it as much

of a Porsche to touch as possible.

And like we said, I wish them the best of it.

That's what it we've we've already been down this road 20 years ago, where

this is what they got to make to stay alive and keep on producing sports cars and go racing.

Then God bless them and let's buy every single one.

Exactly.

Just don't forget that even though they're not the top sellers, the sports cars are very important.

And yes, hopefully the Boxster Cayman EV comes out soon.

We haven't heard a lot of news about it.

And that was kind of worries me because you would think they would try to keep the

rumor mill alive.

The past couple of months, like they they pop up online.

Like I think something I shared in e-brake yesterday is that they're still testing

some of these 718 platforms and doing stuff.

But yeah, just no news on it.

Yeah, it's been very quiet recently.

And once again, that worries me that something's going on.

They haven't told us yet.

And I can understand the suppliers go out of business and they are to completely repivot.

And EV batteries aren't something you can go to the local home depot and buy extra ones to

now stick them in.

I'm still having like the I can't unsee it moment about the Volkswagen Chrysler

Voyager.

Was it the Rutan?

What was it called?

Yes, Rutan.

Oh, very good.

Oh my God.

But you know, the wind.

Well, the really funny part of that is they got everything but the still and go seating.

Chrysler would not give me.

Really?

Yeah.

The still and go seating was the best part of it.

Yeah, it was like the northern bomb side.

It's like you're not getting the seat still and go.

There's a Rutan in my neighborhood.

And whenever I drive by it, I'm thinking myself, that would be a cool daily

just because it's a Volkswagen.

If I could find like a red one and just put a Porsche script on it and whatnot.

I think they're all gone.

I didn't like the Chrysler.

It was the ultra drive transmission or whatever, the Lemony.

Didn't that get them all?

I haven't seen a Rutan in forever.

It was so much more, like you said, they didn't have what the Chrysler had.

It was a Chrysler.

So unless you really wanted the VW name, I couldn't see why people want it.

Unless I just thought that people should go into the dealership and think this was

really a Volkswagen product and not do research and find out it's just a Chrysler with badging on it.

You know, I don't know.

I mean, I remember reading like the gauges were different.

You know, they had like that sort of dramatic gauge font to them.

Volkswagen swears they did something to the suspension, but it was basically, and they're all gone.

Yeah.

Can I fast forward to an example where that just recently happened?

Do you have you heard about the Honda Prologue?

Yes, it's GM.

It's a GM.

It's a GM of Altium.

Did you imagine going into a Honda dealership thinking you're going to buy a Honda?

You buy this Honda Prologue and it's a GM.

And it's a Blazer EV.

It's a Blazer EV.

Yeah.

But I mean, in all fairness and I'm no GM, cheerleader, what is the Altium?

What's the platform?

It's supposed to be pretty good.

Yeah.

But yeah, that would be a big deal.

But let's end off in this segment on a positive note in the sense where with all of this

serious considerations and figuring out the puzzle of the situation that they're in,

they're still doing some pretty cool stuff, especially with the release of the GTS T hybrid

and the Turbo S hybrid.

I mean, that car is wicked.

Yeah, 710 horsepower.

Yeah.

Yeah, 701.

701, sorry.

So they could a little dyslexia.

So they could call it the most powerful 9-11 or road going Porsche ever made,

whichever one, because it had one horsepower or more than the GT2 RS.

Yes.

I wonder how much that was planned.

Oh, I don't think it was planned at all.

It was totally random.

Yeah, totally random.

Yeah.

But then the next question is, what will the next GT2 RS power be?

700.

I'm going to say 700.

770.

How about that?

Yeah.

What was the delta between the last Turbo S and the last GT2 RS?

The last, what is it, is 991.2?

It was like 580 or 620 compared to 700.

Because wasn't the Turbo S 620 or 640?

Or did that come in the 992 generation?

800 horsepower and rear-wheel drive would be.

Yeah.

Diabolical.

Yeah.

Can I say, with all of this that's going on and the 718 is going away,

what do you think is going to happen to the secondary market?

I knew we were going to ask that.

It's going to go up.

It's going to go up, right?

It won't fall this quickly.

Yeah, it can't fall.

I mean, supply and demand.

I think a lot depends on the economy.

There's still money there.

Then I think it'll, once people realize, like I said,

it depends on how long it goes without giving us a replacement.

Then when it's going to get the price, it's going to get to the point where

it's just like the 997.2s or the 997.2s.

Suddenly, they got into a price range where people are like,

oh, this is a great buy.

And everyone started looking for them and found that they were hard to find

because the economy was terrible and they didn't make that many.

I think there's a lot of factors.

Like right now, my nephew, Willis, he's looking for something in the $60,000 range

and we're thinking 996 Turbo or 991, maybe .1, maybe .2.

There's not a whole lot.

991, they are the best buy right now.

But they're not out there.

Yeah, but if you're seeing that and I looked yesterday,

we've been seeing it and .1, 991.1s, especially the 20% or whatever

that they made with manual transmissions are on their way up.

Yeah, I can't find that.

So it's still a 60.

And they're hard to find.

They're really hard to find.

Yeah, 60s is upper limit, which I think that's the problem.

I mean, the crazy thing is I think you will pay more for a 997.2

than a 991.

Yeah, oh yeah.

That's what makes them such a great buy is that they're phenomenal cars

and next to the 992, they look kind of small.

Yeah.

It's only like an inch or something.

The 991 owners are celebrating because their cars look smaller now.

But you know, the strange thing is though, you mentioned 996 Twin Turbos,

they seem to have leveled off.

You know, I think you can still buy manual Twin Turbo, you know, 60, 70,000 miles for

I would say the cars out there, they have somewhat leveled off.

There just aren't many of them.

And the problem is the ones that are available are kind of questionable.

What kind of ownership history?

Like they're not original.

They're, you know, they don't have low mileage.

So yeah, they leveled off but finding a good example one.

They're just not even being posted.

A lot of tip-tronic.

Yeah, yeah, a lot.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And those are in the 40s.

Which is a fine car.

You don't, unless you absolutely, definitely want a stick shift.

Yeah.

My box was tip-tronic, not by choice.

Yeah.

Because my wife needed a tip-tronic, but I don't hate driving it.

No.

Isn't there something, I was looking at a Matt Farah's place is selling 997.1 with a tip.

And he was mentioning there's somebody who makes a shift kit for them that, you know,

basically improves the shift quality of the tip.

I have no idea who that is, but, you know, so.

If you know, comment below.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, let me remind folks to be sure to head over to PCA.org to sign up for PCA's news

letters, performance news, e-brake news, and mart fresh news.

I think we have two news items that Manny has put on here.

First one is talking about a prototype.

Is it Tycon?

Yes, it's, well, I'm trying to find a news item here.

I guess the name it has on the screen.

They're calling it GT4RS.

I don't think that's what's going to be called.

It may be called the Tycon Turbo RS, which would be pretty cool having a 4 door RS.

But yeah, they're, if you thought the Turbo GT was fast, this is even,

this has like, I believe it's saying it has Monty touches on it.

Well, we see that rear wheel disc definitely looks in Monty.

Yeah.

I would have it be ultra cool, even if they just call it a Turbo GT with the Monty package.

That'd be very cool that Monty's getting into it.

Look at those flares.

Oh yeah, I hadn't noticed that before.

All the aero, all the aero rear wheel, aero disc, big old wing on the back.

I'd love to drive that.

Yeah, yeah.

How many can faces?

Rob, it's a cool car.

No, I'm not at all.

I think it's, I think it's pretty wild.

I'm not.

No rear seat.

Yeah, I mean like, yeah.

Just the Turbo GT was wild enough.

I'm just, I'm trying to imagine something.

I'm guessing they're selling the Turbo GT.

I believe we said, they said that their sales met, or exceed the expectation.

So, yeah.

The rear seat deletes kind of weird.

I mean, it's like, has anyone seen one like out in the wild?

Not the Wysock package one.

I've seen the regular Turbo non Wysock.

So, the wing isn't as aggressive as the Wysock package one.

I don't know how many people really went for the rear seat deletion.

I mean, you got to be pretty dedicated.

Specific use car.

All right.

Next up, continue talking about electric vehicles.

We're talking about wireless charging.

A Porsche is saying that that is coming out in 2027, I think.

Is that what it said?

And it looks like they used 2026.

Camouflaged Cayenne.

Yeah.

So, it's going to be basically, just imagine like your phone being wirelessly charged,

except you're going to have a plate in your driveway or your garage.

And your car will also have a corresponding plate underneath.

And you will drive within four to six inches.

It will be a height clearance.

And that's where the power will transmit from.

So, no longer plugging in, you just park on top of it.

Park on top, 11 kilowatts.

I think that's a future.

I think it's going to be a future of all the places where people say,

well, I live in an apartment building and there's no place for news.

I don't have a garage or whatnot.

But I think more and more places will start installing these wireless chargers.

Charging pad.

I mean, it's not going to happen in 2026,

but they're going to become more affordable and people are going to

forget how to mass produce them and do it safely.

Yeah.

The technology is going to evolve and we're going to.

I mean, how much easier do you want to pull up?

And your car is going to light up and say, do you want to charge?

You say, yes.

And you start charging.

Yeah.

Or if there's, you know, if there's one in a drive-through somewhere,

I mean, how many times we spent like 10 minutes at a fast food drive-through

if you get like 30% charge?

Pull these.

I do not want one in the drive-through.

Can you imagine somebody going, I'm finishing charging.

Wait a minute.

My fries are getting cold.

There will be some violence and drive-throughs

because somebody wanted to get two more minutes of charging.

Not done.

But I thought, at first I thought, well, I suppose like if it's warm or something,

that's going to attract cats or animals.

But it said four inches.

So that's a pretty tight space.

And I'm sure anyone sitting on it, they're going to,

any animal is going to climb off really quick when they see the car pull up.

Yeah.

I think it's pretty exciting that this is actually coming into being.

All right.

Let me just make sure you know that November 16th,

that Porsche Santa Clarita will be Unstop 2025.

Registration is open.

So if you have a modified Porsche and want to have it on display,

make sure you register because those spots are limited.

But if you're just looking to come out and hang out with us at Unstop 2025,

just show up November 16th, Porsche Santa Clarita.

And please, if you register, send a good picture of your car,

not one taken at night with the close-up of the Lexus plate.

Trust me, it's modified, Manny.

Really can't tell.

I have to do Google searches on your car to figure out what does the car look like.

Somebody must take the picture of this car elsewhere that I can find out what it looks like.

And here's an incentive for you.

The better the photos that you send,

the better, Manny, can tell that it's modified.

The better he'll park you in one of the better parking spots.

Otherwise, he's going to put you in the back.

Then you show up and I'm like, oh, I wish I would have known that the car looked like this.

Exactly.

Damon, you want to catch us up on videos?

Uh, sure, yeah.

So probably our main video that we came out with is, if you're on YouTube,

you can kind of see that it's on our homepage right now.

We'll see if it still is by the time this podcast comes out.

But it's basically a 14 to 15 minute video about PCA's history from 1955 to 2025.

And for how long that video is, we stuff in quite a lot of history.

Patrick Long, a retired Porsche factory driver, narrates the whole thing.

And if you were at Parade this year at Oklahoma City, you probably saw the video

if you were at all the banquets.

We released it in portions.

So each banquet had like a two to three minute section of this video.

And if you're on the PCA cruise, you got to see it too.

Yep.

And it's, it's, if you're an emotional person, I highly recommend you have a box of tissues

next to you because it's just really cool to see how far the club has come from 12 individuals

sitting around wondering how they can support each other with this quirky little car that

they have to, you know, now 170,000 members in the US and Canada, over 3,500 events

just for one mark.

When we do things nationally, we do things in the zones, we do things in the regions and

all the volunteers, thousands and thousands of volunteers that make all of this work.

This is a nice tribute video.

Grab a cup of coffee.

It's definitely worth sitting back and enjoying.

Should also mention the special 70th anniversary issue of Panorama,

the September issue that is just hitting mailboxes.

Yes.

Awesome.

Yes, look for it.

Perfect.

Colorblind people.

But no, again, I've thanked Voo and Manny repeatedly, but their help in assisting with

the photo shoots, finding cars, and everything was absolutely invaluable.

Yeah.

It was definitely cool to be a part of a lot of hard work.

But at four a.m. shoot at an airport.

Yeah.

In the rain with a 356.

So, all right, I want to remind folks, if you're interested in doing some sim racing

with fellow PCAers, check out PCASimRacing.com.

We also had sim racing featured.

The 70 for 70 special event was on PCA's YouTube channel as well.

And we had PCA's club racing at some point.

It was also broadcasted live and still sits up on our YouTube channel if you want to

check those out.

Insider swag.

If you're looking for a t-shirt, a cup, or perhaps a insider water bottle,

you can purchase there.

Or if you're just looking for PCA insider decals,

send us your address information to podcast at PCA.org and we'll send you a couple.

Anything else before we wrap up?

Man, this hour went by quick.

Yeah.

No, it's, we've got some more interesting podcasts coming up with PCA history.

So, stay tuned.

Yeah.

And if you have any thoughts, comments, or suggestions, put it in the comments.

We'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how will Porsche solve this problem?

You know, we wish them all the best.

It is a very complex puzzle to solve, but we're going to support them either way.

Thank you for listening.

Be sure to like, comment, and subscribe.

And consider sharing our show with fellow Porsche enthusiasts.

Until next time, stay safe and we'll see you down the road.

Does Porsche Still Need To Build Sports cars?

Porsche Carrera GT

Audi RS4

Porsche 914

Porsche 911

Porsche Macan

Porsche Boxster

Porsche Cayman

Volkswagen Tiguan

Volkswagen Golf

BMW E90

Boxster S718 Boxster

Cayman S

Porsche 904

Volkswagen XL1

Ford F-150 Lightning

Mazda MX-5 / Miata

Porsche Cayenne

Bmw M

Tesla Roadster

Chrysler Voyager

Honda Prologue

Chevrolet Blazer EV

About this episode

Original notes