TFL Car Chat Jul 21, 2025

Ep. 293: Why Does Buying A Car In 2025 Still Suck?

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75:04

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Chevrolet Corvette

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's always been like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just think that's how it is buying a car.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe they're trying to hide stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe maybe you just put your finger on the thing that makes buying cars so difficult.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is these are emotional.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they're decisions, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: You believe with your heart instead of your head off and at least I do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're also thinking you're spending four thousand dollars for a car instead of four dollars for a chicken.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That chickens bad, I just lost four dollars.

[SPEAKER_01]: The car is bad, I lost four thousand dollars.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a higher risk transaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's always going to be more drama involved.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, I'm not even talking about the fact that I'm trying buying a house.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even talking about the fact that many people on touch online sales of vehicles because they're too afraid and rightfully so that they're going to get murdered.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure, but that, I mean, if I call someone in the newspaper, I'm not sure I'm more likely to get murdered online than in the newspaper.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or ripped off, or, you know, somehow scan.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think the internet as a whole has made car buying a lot better, because it leads to more informed people, where you able to do more research on that car and have a better understanding of the market value before they go and look at the car.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they also know what to look for than it did before the internet.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess the whole thing for me is buying a car has now maybe because we buy a lot of cars and I'm winging and lining about something that most people really enjoy but for me it just become a lot of work.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just a lot of work and the reward to work ratio is not there anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's because you just burped out of buying cards.

[SPEAKER_00]: It could be, it could be that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think if you're like whole and you buy a car once every ten years, it's probably worth the worth.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I helped cold buy his car.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but if you're buying a car once every ten days, it gets a little old.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe once every two weeks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, before we wrap this up, let's talk about the Bronco Sport very quickly.

[SPEAKER_00]: You just compared it to the Bronco.

[SPEAKER_00]: You had the new Sasquatch package, which makes it look pretty badass.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a big old road.

[SPEAKER_00]: roll on that roll bar.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a brush guard on the front.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, bigger wheels, bigger tires.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it looks pretty cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so this is the Broncosport Sasquatch, which is the new off-road version of the Little Broncosport.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's got bigger tires on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's got more skin plating.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's got some cool switches on the inside.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually a really impressive little crossover.

[SPEAKER_01]: So most crossovers in this category like the Ford or the Toyota RAF four woodland, [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of just a trim package or the CRV trail sport I drove where they put a slightly different tire on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: They give it some more cladding in different paint called a day.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Ford really went the extra mile, including front and rear recovery points on this vehicle to make it an actual crossover you could offer.

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you say the best or most off-road or the soft rotor you could buy?

[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely the one that I've driven.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's much better than the trail sport by Honda because it's got a lot more clearance and better angles.

[SPEAKER_01]: How about the wilderness by Subaru?

[SPEAKER_01]: I've never driven it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I haven't spent much time in the I drove the force to briefly and that was also very good, but this vehicle will it sets it apart in my mind is the thickness and quality of the skin plates and the fact that it has front and rear tow hooks that are not some screw and thing that you have to mess with are permanently integrated in the front and the back and it's got a genuine offer tire It was a properly impressive little crossover [SPEAKER_00]: How did it do compared to the Bronco Bronco?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's not on the same level.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it still is a single-speed transfer case.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, going up some of the really steep hills, it doesn't have the torque delivery of the big Broncos, but with that locking rear differential and the granted, even compared to the big Bronco, relatively limited ground clearance, it would get up a shocking number of things that you would never attempt.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what I tell people is like, with most crossovers, [SPEAKER_01]: It will probably do what you need to do once or twice, but you're not looking for that experience at a regular rate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you wouldn't want to take a CRV Trailsport off-road on a weekly basis.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas this Broncosport Badlands, you could do mild to moderate trails every weekend and the cart would hold up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, hang with me here.

[SPEAKER_00]: If the Wrangler is the off-roader and the Renegade is the Baby Wrangler.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's say they're called it the Renegades for is I mean they call that the Wrangler sport instead of the Wrangler.

[SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a the Renegades, sorry.

[SPEAKER_00]: How does the Broncosport compare to that or compared to the Renegades?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's mild better.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so not even on this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean the Renegade was kind of the Renegade was a cool first attempt, but it really lacked torque and it really lacked [SPEAKER_01]: durability I would say for for regular offered use where I think the Broncos weren't as both of those fair yeah it's very impressive little thing yeah and it was expensive I mean it's forty six thousand dollars this one yeah I mean now you're bushing up against the Broncos Broncos but the question is do you and I know doubt the base model big Broncos gonna be better off are still because it's got a low range but do you want [SPEAKER_01]: to live with claw seats and no heated seats in a crappy steering wheel and basic steel wheels on a regular basis, or do you want the Broncos Sport, which is gonna be worse off road, but has that every single fix and you can imagine for on-road loving?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what, I don't get tummy, and this is a real head scratcher.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why don't any American manufacturers build a chimney?

[SPEAKER_00]: In other words, the Suzuki Samurai.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why don't they actually build a small vehicle with a low range as opposed to going up to that as far as possible and then not putting that low range in?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why not just build a Bronco Sport that is, let's say, three quarters of a Bronco and make it as off-road worthy by giving it a low range, by giving it lockers instead of doing this kind of Bronco Sport thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: and trying to make it as good as possible without tying its hands behind its back and not giving it their low range.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't that make sense?

[SPEAKER_00]: In a heartbeat, I would buy an inexpensive serious off-roader and by serious I'm defining it as something that has their low range like a chimney that they get in Europe and they get in Japan and yet in America we can't have it for whatever reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I genuinely think as much as every comment said they would love one, nobody would buy one.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Suzuki Soul, like gangbusters when it first came out.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it only sold in, I think, three states initially, and you had to line up for six months ago for the side, for the side, for not the side kicked the samurai, and then of course, the side he came along, and also had a lowering.

[SPEAKER_01]: And back in the day, for sure, it was a good seller.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a reason they didn't continue selling it.

[SPEAKER_01]: because they built the Kizashi.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, because they built, which is sidekick.

[SPEAKER_01]: A sex four.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because people complain that the samurai was too small and too impractical.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the samurai was tiny.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's not three quarters.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's half to seven.

[SPEAKER_01]: What they did is they built the sidekick, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was three quarters.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they built the Vittara because Americans say they want tiny, four-wheel drives.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when people actually buy them, I don't think they would.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because today you've got the market [SPEAKER_00]: segmented into much smaller niches than before.

[SPEAKER_00]: Before people were like, I just want to sit in, that's really will drive with a V-A.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That was everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then all this rest of the stuff was kind of silly.

[SPEAKER_00]: But now there is a genuine need and want and demand for our froters.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yet we don't have the one thing that most people want, which is a small serious four by four.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the idea is awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I would love to say I would buy one, but I don't even think I would buy one.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would buy one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you know why?

[SPEAKER_01]: Market wouldn't let me buy one.

[SPEAKER_01]: because your wife would get in that thing and be like, what the hell is this?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that is why no one buys to her.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that is why no one buys to her anglers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Every comment is say, go out and drive the actual wrinkler, not this Ford or Crats.

[SPEAKER_00]: Say it has to be a two door.

[SPEAKER_00]: It could be a four door.

[SPEAKER_00]: I still wouldn't sell it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the Jimmy's a four door.

[SPEAKER_01]: They'd have both.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have a two and a four door.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the reason the two are Wrangler is pretty close to the chimney in terms of size and maybe not price but in terms of size and nobody buys them.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm back in the day Tommy.

[SPEAKER_00]: A mid-sized truck.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is now back when the Suzuki was new.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was a tiny little thing about the size of a maverick.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now everything has gone at least one if not two sizes up.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you wouldn't have, you're just making this assumption that it would just have to be tiny.

[SPEAKER_00]: It couldn't be actually small without being tiny and still have room for all the stuff that your wife wants.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wrangler is already too small.

[SPEAKER_01]: and a Wrangler is not that small.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just think it's one of those things.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like when all the car enthusiasts, every time a manufacturer builds, people are like, oh, where are all the affordable sports cars, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There's no affordable sports cars.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then Sion and Subaru come out with a affordable sports car exactly what people want and very few people buy it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just enthusiasts don't, they say they want something and they want a manufacturer builds a super.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't line up and actually buy the super.

[SPEAKER_01]: Same thing with disease.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it cuts both ways.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think part of what you're saying is true, but part of what you're saying is also true, or these what I'm saying, and that is that one enthusiast one is oftentimes a predictor of what the general public wants.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the good example of that would be the manual transmission.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've gone completely away from the manual and I think there'd be a lot of manufacturers, maybe not mainstream manufacturers, but a lot of especially high-end manufacturers that would do very well by bringing back a manual.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so because Jeep didn't kill the manual in the gladiator because people were buying it.

[SPEAKER_00]: who loves manuals would kill for a Ferrari with a manual.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the Porsche manuals are flying up and if you look at classic vehicles, the manuals carry a huge premium over the non-manuals.

[SPEAKER_00]: In the classic world for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was just at Sam's Club yesterday and there was a guy there who had the new M-Tube and that really cool baby blue color and I had to walk up to him and I said, what do you think of the car?

[SPEAKER_00]: and the first thing he said, I love it and I said, why do you love it?

[SPEAKER_00]: He goes, it's gonna manual.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was a very first thing he said.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, don't you care that it's slower?

[SPEAKER_00]: He goes, no, I just love how fun it is to drive.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this was a young man, you're age.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I put it in them too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even we are hypocrites, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we say, we want manuals.

[SPEAKER_01]: Articomo is an automatic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are Wrangler?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, we do that because of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the point.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's always a bus.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's always a point.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's why people don't people buy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you saying that everybody has a video algorithm that doesn't have a driver?

[SPEAKER_01]: But everyone has a mother-in-law that comes to town once every year and doesn't know how to drive a manual.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody has a friend that might need a driver that doesn't know how to drive a manual.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know you're conflating a business reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's the true consumer buyer.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would, I would love to have bought a regular manual, but I wouldn't because my wife doesn't know the driving it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is a very ordinary manual.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know before I met my wife and then I sold it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is the harsh reality of the situation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody says they want it and then there's the butt.

[SPEAKER_01]: But our videographer might need to drive it.

[SPEAKER_00]: What do you need to drive?

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe my sister needs a driver.

[SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't know how to drive a manual.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_00]: Once again, you're conflating mainstream cars with enthusiasts cars.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying you go out and stick a manual in a RAF four.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hell no, that's our CR.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm talking about the cars that people buy as their third or fourth car because they love cars and they're enthusiasts and these like I said we have these small niches now or companies are doing very well, you know, filling in these little small niches because the mainstream.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's money in small niches.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there is money.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that why are they doing the super?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a mainstream manufacturer.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's a small niche.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why did they kill even the Camaro, which was a big, lit niche, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'll give you a niche that makes no sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he had a defines an entire brand.

[SPEAKER_00]: What's that?

[SPEAKER_00]: The G-wagon.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's not a niche though.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you think of Mercedes, if people, the thing that people think about Mercedes is a G-wagon.

[SPEAKER_00]: If that is a niche that defines a brand.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's not a niche.

[SPEAKER_01]: If people, Beverly.

[SPEAKER_01]: C.A.

[SPEAKER_01]: Corvette defines an entire brand.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's C.A.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is a niche, but the G-wagon isn't a niche.

[SPEAKER_01]: If people in Beverly Hills are buying the niche of buying a buying a G-wagon to drive to Erawan, that's not a niche.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not a, that's not a, that's not a, a C-a.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what a niche becomes mainstream.

[SPEAKER_01]: C-a little bit of a thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And once again, C-a quarter bets are good example.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone got all upset when they killed the manual and they sell more C-aates than almost any other category.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's good engine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that because it's missing a manual, they would still even more if they put a manual back to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anyone would buy it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like C-Sevens.

[SPEAKER_00]: Every time I listen to it, every time I listen to a conversation with like the chief engineer of Corvette.

[SPEAKER_00]: The first question that always, what are you getting a manual?

[SPEAKER_00]: What are you getting a manual?

[SPEAKER_01]: Once again, C-Seven Corvette, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: C-Seven Corvette had a manual transmission.

[SPEAKER_01]: But dad, that was a manual transmission and people didn't buy it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love manual, Tommy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Once again a little a little perspective here.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love manuals more than life itself.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love manuals and yet having driven on the same day nine eleven with an automatic and a manual and having a chance to buy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I bought it because the seven speed was so stupid.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hate the seven speed.

[SPEAKER_00]: It just it just makes driving.

[SPEAKER_00]: It wrecks the manual.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then don't you seven?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, it just sits out there.

[SPEAKER_00]: It does not say there's no use it.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't like it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like having it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very OCD, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: I like things that match up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, divide by two.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand that seven.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, five speeds.

[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't match up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because five is perfect.

[SPEAKER_00]: It works.

[SPEAKER_00]: Seven just does.

[SPEAKER_00]: It works.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's a lot more people like me where the seven speed is just stupid.

[SPEAKER_00]: It makes no sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It just makes drugs.

[SPEAKER_00]: It just makes it a drudgery to shift.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, why didn't we Brian manual broke up?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's any hacker first.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's always a butt.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's a business.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's always a butt.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a business.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just think, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's.

[SPEAKER_00]: We had to check restaurant, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: There's nobody in the Czech Republic for the most part, each salad.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yet we still had to have a salad on the menu.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because of a business case, because there were people who were our customers who came in and were on a diet or a lot of salads or whatever case was, so we had to have a salad.

[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean that it's not something that a personal, a personal reason, it's something that is a business reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think you can separate the two.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just think that if you look at the business reason behind it, every enthusiast loves wagons, every enthusiast loves v-hates, and every enthusiast loves manual transmissions.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then Cadillac came out with the Cadillac CTSV wagon, which was a V-hate manual transmission wagon, and five hundred people bought it.

[SPEAKER_01]: right this is the reality situation is car enthusiasts love to complain and then when it's time to actually pony up there's always a reason why they don't buy it oh it's got a seven speed I don't want a seven speed oh it's too expensive I'd like to can't afford that right there's always a reason and then you end up with no manual transmission okay well on that note we've gone longer than an hour time [SPEAKER_00]: We stood at Bickering Away.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I apologize.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope that you found at least someone entertaining if not annoying.

[SPEAKER_00]: And where should they go if they want more TFL?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all TFL.com.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a place to go for more content.

[SPEAKER_00]: And as always, it's been Tommy.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Roman saying we'll see you next time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ciao.

About this episode

Navigating the car buying experience in 2025 remains a challenge, with emotional decisions and fears of scams complicating the process. The hosts discuss how the internet has improved buyer knowledge but also express frustration with the effort involved in frequent purchases. They also dive into the new Ford Bronco Sport Sasquatch, highlighting its impressive off-road capabilities compared to competitors. The conversation touches on the market's demand for smaller, serious off-road vehicles and the disconnect between enthusiast desires and consumer purchasing habits.

Chevrolet Camaro Chevrolet Corvette Ford Bronco Sport Ford Maverick Jeep Gladiator Jeep Renegade Jeep Wrangler Mercedes-Benz G-Class Suzuki Samurai

Original notes

( https://www.alltfl.com/ ) Check out our new spot to find ALL our content, from news to videos and our podcasts! In this episode of TFL Car Chat, Roman and Tommy dive into the frustrating world of car buying in 2025—why the process is still confusing, stressful, and often stacked against everyday buyers. From dealership markups to vague pricing and high interest rates, they break down what makes buying a car such a terrible experience and how the industry could make it better for real people. Whether you're shopping for a new or used car, this is a must-listen before you sign anything.

They also take a closer look at the 2024 Ford Bronco Everglades, exploring how it fits into the off-road SUV world now that the Bronco lineup has expanded. Plus, the guys discuss the latest on EV incentives being rolled back in the Big Beautiful Bill, what that means for shoppers considering an electric vehicle, and whether the market is headed for a slowdown. It's a mix of buyer advice, auto industry trends, and off-road insights all in one episode.

( http://www.patreon.com/tflcar ) Visit our Patreon page to support the TFL team!

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