Episode 221: McLaren Racing CEO Zak Brown

The automobile is one of the most important inventions that revolutionize the modern world.

In America, the rich history of car culture runs deep.

This technology continues to shape the future of the industry.

Jason Stein is here to share the stories of people passionate about cars,

from industry leaders and innovators to car-obsessed celebrities.

Buckle up as Jason takes you inside the boardroom, onto the track, and around the bend,

on Cars and Culture on SiriusXM Business Radio.

Welcome into Episode 221 of Cars and Culture.

I'm your host, Jason Stein.

Great to have you back on SiriusXM Business Radio, Channel 132.

Today, we're going behind the pit wall with one of the most recognizable names in global motorsport,

and one of the most powerful figures in the world of Formula One.

He's Zach Brown, CEO of McLaren Racing.

Brown's journey is not the typical F1 executive story.

Before he was running one of the sport's most iconic teams, he was a racer himself,

competing in open-wheel and sports cars.

That early exposure to the track not only sharpened his competitive instincts,

but also gave him a first-hand understanding of what it takes to succeed at the highest levels.

From those beginnings, Brown transitioned into the business of motorsport, where he has excelled.

Building a reputation is one of the most savvy marketers in the industry.

His company, Just Marketing International, became the largest motorsport marketing agency in the world,

forging relationships with some of the biggest brands on the planet.

It was the perfect preparation for what would come next.

Since taking the helm at McLaren Racing, Brown has been charged with revitalizing a legendary name,

steering McLaren through a period of dramatic change,

navigating the highly competitive environment of modern Formula One,

and setting the stage for the team's return to the front of the grid.

Along the way, he's also expanded McLaren's reach into IndyCar and other sports,

redefining what a global racing organization can look like, including endurance racing.

In today's conversation, we'll explore not only the business and strategy behind one of

the sport's most important teams, but also his passion for all things racing and culture.

From the boardroom to the paddock, he's become a central figure in shaping the future

of Formula One and beyond. And, coming out this fall, a new book, Seven Tenths of a Second,

by author, Zach Brown. He was our first guest on Cars and Culture, and now he's guest,

221. Hi, this is Zach Brown, and this is Cars and Culture with Jason Stein.

It's good to be back with you. Unbelievably, you were guest number one on this program.

Long time ago. At least a lot of interviews.

It was a lot of interviews. It was four and a half years ago,

and about 230, 240 shows. Thank you for coming back on the program.

Good to be here. Yeah, a little bit's changed since the last time we talked.

I don't want to say that we had anything to do with it, but certainly after our conversation,

you were on a rocket ship into where you are now, which is firmly outer space

in the F1 and racing world. How do you put the last four and a half years into words?

Oh, four and a half years. We've kind of seen it all in four and a half years,

from being the worst team on the grid, starting the season, to now being the

most successful team on the grid. I think it could be argued.

It can be. Who has the best car at the moment because the sport ebbs and flows, but

teams done a wonderful job. All the men and women at McLaren have

busted their butt and produced a great fast racing car. Of course, we've got

two sensational drivers, and it's all coming together. We've won quite a few races this

year, but not the last couple. That keeps us highly motivated because we want to win them all,

but of course, you never will. When you reflect back just during that time,

what has changed? Are there two or three things that you can boil down and say,

this is the essence of going from the back of the grid to the front of the grid?

I know that that's a razor thin margin for most teams, but what in your mind

propelled you to that kind of success? I was definitely people.

We've got great people at McLaren, but we weren't necessarily working great as a team.

I think we lacked leadership when we took over on what we call a quest, not a journey. A journey

is kind of how we got here today. A little bit of traffic, but pretty easy. Flying to the

moon is a quest. It's been an exciting ride, continues to be an exciting ride.

You know, my leadership team, Andreas Stella and his leadership team,

the way we're working together, the way we're getting the most out of our people. Of course,

we've had things like new wind tunnels. It is an amalgamation of everything coming together,

but number one on the list is people. When you talk about people, and you

mentioned earlier, it does basically center on drivers as well.

They're definitely playing an important role. Right. Two of the best in the business now,

and two that are propelling you into a whole other echelon. Last time we talked,

you didn't have Oscar. What has that done to the team? What has it meant? I know you were

in pursuit at the time. You were watching very closely. That was hotly contested

at the time, but what has all of that done now to bring two of those drivers,

world-class drivers in? I think they're pushing each other,

and they push the team. You've got to give them great equipment, and they help you

develop great equipment because they've got great feedback. They get the most out of the car.

I think any time you're in a competitive situation, especially with your teammate,

they just get that little extra edge out of each other, and then they keep

raising their game on each other and ultimately the team. I've said from day one,

I think we have the best driver lineup in Formula One at the moment. Statistically,

that is factually accurate, and they're great guys, and they bring a ton of energy to the team,

so not only are they unbelievably fast racing drivers, they're great guys, they're great team

players, and I think that's helped create this environment that has everyone working so well

together. Was there a moment during the quest to use your phrase? Was there a moment that

you thought things were exactly turning to where you wanted it to be? Where you wanted to go?

I think Miami, Lando's first win, was a big moment, but it even goes back before then,

I would say, Austria, 2023, which was when Andrea and the new Formula One team, which was

primarily about 98% of the same people, so it was new in energy.

When we put those developments on Lando's car, we didn't have two sets ready, so we didn't get it

ready for Oscar's car until Silverstone, but I would say that was a moment where you could tell

we had our act together, but still a lot of room for improvement.

Lando, with that breakthrough moment that long-awaited win and a chaotic scene in Miami

after he did that, we happen to be right in front of that celebration, what changed in his

mentality maybe that he was no longer chasing his first, but could now pursue some other goals?

Yeah, I think any time a driver wins their first race, it just gives them a boost of

confidence that they got that done, and then they know how to win, and that second win

becomes easier in that third win, and so it was a huge boost for him. He'd come close to winning.

We didn't really have a car that was capable of winning, and then as soon as we were,

he delivered the goods, and he's been an Oscar on fire ever since.

And Oscar often described as being ice cold. I mean, he's as smooth and cool as they come.

What kind of feedback and growth are you seeing from him, maybe even behind closed doors?

What you see is what you get with Oscar. He's very level-headed. He's very thoughtful. He's very

technical. I think he and Lando are great personality combinations. I always say you

wouldn't want two Zachs or two Andreas. Combination is what makes both of them so strong. So he's

very focused. Of course, Lando, they're just two different personalities, but he hasn't really

changed. How have you changed during that time? I don't think a lot. I still wake up every day

worried about what's ahead of me. So I kind of live with a little bit of a fear of failure as a

motivator, as opposed to the thrill of victory. So I don't think I've changed much. I think

the job gets harder every day, because once you're on top, you want to stay on top.

That's kind of only one way down the mountain now. And this is sport. No one wins forever.

So I think it's that paranoia, if you'd like, that keeps me personally very motivated every day.

It's such a different thing, isn't it? I mean, when you're hunting continuously and then you're

hunted, all of a sudden the dialogue changes. All of a sudden the pressure changes.

Maybe even the rules change. I don't know. Yeah, what's interesting is

we've got a lot of great fans out there. You have a lot more now. We have a lot more now.

But you'd still be amazed at how many people, and that's the social media world that we live in,

the commentary you get when you finish first and second, if it's not in the order that

they think it should have been in. Maybe even just recently. Yeah, so the pressure's on,

the spotlight's on us, but we just need to stay focused on ourselves.

You call it the, I guess it's the papaya culture or the papaya ethic. There's a

phrase to it. There's the papaya rules. We call it the papaya era, which is we went back to

our papaya colors and then so papaya is just something that we kind of play off. There's

papaya rules. There's papaya army or fan base or papaya fans. So we're kind of all things papaya.

Did you trademark that? I mean, you should have. I'm sure we do have,

the lawyers have that covered off somewhere. But when an incident happens, I just want to,

you brought it up, so I'll just mention it, but when an incident happens like it did in

September in Monza and the internet goes crazy over what should have happened or what could have

happened or maybe there's maybe there's tension in the team and who's actually going to,

who are they intending to have finished first? How do you respond to those sorts of things?

You don't really because I think, you know, sport is all about passion. So you'll have

people that, you know, you go to a baseball game, go to a football game, pick a sport and

people are cheering and booing and you should have done that. And it's like having 150,000

team principals in the audience. And you know, we love them for it. That's, you know,

I think there's a line that shouldn't be crossed, but you're not going to convince

that very small group of individuals, anything else. So I think you just got to stay focused

on what your own racing integrity is, your own rules and recognize that people have driver

favorites, team favorites, everyone has an opinion. And, you know, most of the time when you see

critical comments, people are uninformed, but you can't sit there and explain it to them.

So I think as long as we're true to ourselves, that's all you can really do.

Sometimes even critical comments within the paddock, actually not sometimes.

That's all part of the part of the game. So, you know, our sport is about focusing on your team,

but there is also an aspect of trying to disrupt the competition. So, you know, we call them poison

biscuits and no one's allowed to eat the poison biscuits and just just focus on ourselves.

I want to focus on that for a moment just because it's been so fascinating to see the

environment change within the paddock over the last few years, since the last time we talked.

Your colleague, Total Wolf, said just recently that the sport needs villains

in order to stay compelling, that every movie needs the good, the bad, and the ugly, right?

Do you believe in that? Do you think that the sport needs that sort of thing?

I mean, you watch sports. Yeah, yes and no. But I think, you know,

sometimes the villains, the best player in the sport, right? You know, if you,

you know, here we are in New York, you know, Aaron Judge is unbelievable.

I bet whenever Aaron Judge goes to some other parks, you know, he's the villain because he's

the great guy. And so, yeah, I think you need big personalities in the sport, whether they're

good guys, bad guys, villains, heroes, superheroes. I think you need personalities in the sport.

But yeah, I mean, everyone likes a good villain in a movie.

Well, and there has to be a protagonist, right? There's got to be somebody who's

either outspoken, controversial. You know, Toto said that your former colleague, Christian Horner,

that he loved to play that role. And we're on Sirius XM, so that the sport needs an asshole.

Is that true?

You know, he certainly had his ways of operating. He had a lot of fans. He had a huge

amount of success. And then he had a lot of people that didn't like the way he rolls.

But I think you could say that probably about all the team bosses out there. So,

yeah, you know, he was definitely a big personality, been around a long time. And I think

everyone loves to see a good rivalry. Has it changed without having him there?

You know, it's early days. I think so. You know, there are certain things that

I think amongst the team bosses that we can speak more openly about on behalf of the

sport that doesn't necessarily immediately become political. Laurent, who is now running Red Bull,

is doing a great job. He's won the last couple races. So, but, you know,

look at how many championships and races he's won. He got the job done.

Yeah, you said recently that Formula One is in a healthier place since Laurent has taken over.

Yeah, and what I meant by that is, you know, I think there are time for off-the-record conversations

where you're talking about things that, you know, aren't intended to be political, but you're talking

about growth and health of the sport. And, you know, unfortunately, sometimes you couldn't have

that conversation without it getting replayed and taken out of context or used in a way

where you couldn't actually have, in my opinion, a conversation that wouldn't maybe

be spun a different way. The popularity of the sport and whether it's the protagonist or the

antagonist or whatever's happening inside or outside the paddock, the popularity cannot

be questioned. And that might be a reason why it's going as well as it is. And

the Motor Sports Network recently came out with a survey. They surveyed 100,000 fans who

were F1 fans. And the bottom line is the popularity could not be higher.

Yeah, sports in a great place. Right. Why?

Oh, I think there's a lot of reasons why. I think you got to start with Liberty acquiring the sport.

Obviously, Bernie did an unbelievable job to build the sport to where Liberty took over. But

Liberty made the sport very inclusive, you know, coming with Netflix.

I think it exposed people to how cool our sport is, not just on the track, but, you know, how

political and soap opera and villains and all those dramas that make the sport exciting to

follow. The competition has been amazing. You know, we won the Constructors' Championship,

came down to the last lap last year. So the competition you had last year, I think it was

seven multiple winners, four different teams, unheard of that level of competitiveness.

This year, you know, even though we're from a Constructors' standpoint,

have a very healthy lead. You know, different poll sitters, different winners.

Still a chase.

There's definitely still this, this championship is wide open from a driver's

point of view. Who can win next weekend? Is it a Ferrari? Is it a McLaren? Is it a Mercedes?

Williams on the podium.

Williams on the podium. So I think the levels of competitiveness, the sport's never been

more competitive. The personalities, there's only 20 drivers. Our broadcast partners, the

Demand for Grand Prix, and then the sponsorship in the sport. You know, we were the commercially

the most successful racing team in the world at the moment. And look at the partners that we have

that hadn't historically been in the sport, the Googles, the Ciscos, the Dells.

You know, I can have the MasterCards. I could give quite a few plugs to

our great roster of partners. So when you kind of put that all together,

the sport's an unbelievable economic health. You know, our race team just had a

transaction. And if you look at what the valuation of our team was five years ago to,

you know, what was reported, which wasn't, you know, too wide of the mark.

Three billion dollars, correct.

It was a very healthy look at that value creation in less than five years. So

you had teams going bankrupt. Now you have people that are, you know,

begging to get into the sport, you know, it took Cadillac quite a bit of effort to get.

So look at the supply and demand, you know, five years ago was, you know,

do you want to buy Williams or Force India or Sauber out of, you know,

administration or going into administration. Now you've got to write a check, you know,

north of a half a billion just to get a dance ticket to come to the dance.

What a tremendous amount of value that the sport's created in five years.

Wow. Yeah. And you look at Audi entering. You mentioned Cadillac as well.

There's a momentum behind this that probably you couldn't have even

sort of foreseen if I were to vast you five years ago.

It's far exceeded my expectations. You know, Formula One is now a major sport in North America.

And you got to give a lot of credit to Austin for bringing Formula One back.

But I think without Netflix, you wouldn't have had a Miami, you wouldn't have had a

of Vegas. And so it's really cool for North America to be a major part of the footprint

of Formula One. There was three things that we really needed in Formula One not long ago.

North America is a geographic market, youth, you know, our future and women, a more diverse

audience. And that is radically changed. And I think that's driven a lot of our popularity.

Well, in the global F1 fan survey, which, you know, by the way, was the largest study of its kind

in the sport. I mentioned earlier, 100,000 self-identified fans participating across over

185 countries. So it's not a United States survey. 94% of all respondents said they expect

to be following F1 five years from now, including 97% from Gen Z. I mean,

that's awesome. It's exactly what we want it in. I now hear from fans on the street,

so often, well, there's a few things that stick out. One, people go, I never followed Formula One,

now I won't miss a race. So they've taken people, they haven't just created awareness,

they've created massive fan following and people have gone from not knowing the sport to

having fans. Normally that takes time. The other is, I get, you know, stopped everywhere.

And it's either usually from youth or women. And when it is from a guy, usually the comment is,

my daughter, my wife, my partner. And so it's amazing how much the fan base has changed.

Yeah. And when you talk about Austin, the Austin race I went to a few years ago,

there were, you mentioned earlier, 19, 20 year old women who were not there to see

Post Malone perform, but they were there for the race. He did perform, but they were also there

for the race. Yeah. There for the race and the scene and the atmosphere is such a cool sport.

And whether you are a fan of the technology, the racing, the venues, the drivers, the drama,

the politics, there's so many different ways to digest our sport and so many

different fascinating aspects to it. I think that's why we have quite a diverse audience.

You're such a huge baseball fan, St. Louis Cardinals guy, right?

But I would venture to say that Formula One, especially on the weekends,

if the NFL is not on, even if it is on, it out distances baseball in this country

in some segments. I mean, it has taken a place that it rightfully didn't have before

and has surpassed the popularity of some other great American pastimes.

Yeah, let's stick with some other sports, because I love my base. I'm going to the Yankee game tonight.

And the Cardinals cubbies this weekend. You also love your golf too, right?

I do love my golf. You go to the Ryder Cup. You go to the Ryder Cup. Justin Rose is a

great friend. A lot of the golfers are huge Formula One fans, so I'll definitely

be cheering them on this weekend. But my point is that I think nobody

could have even had that conversation. Yeah, it wasn't even on the radar.

Five, ten years ago. No, it's been amazing. How fast it's grown and how popular it is.

It's really cool.

After the break, I'll continue my conversation with McLaren racing boss, Zach Brown.

To see the interview with Zach, go to the Carson Culture YouTube channel,

subscribe, comment, and check out hundreds of conversations with creators, collectors,

and culture makers who are driving the industry forward.

The automobile is one of the most important inventions that revolutionized the modern

world. In America, the rich history of car culture runs deep.

This technology continues to shape the future of the industry.

Jason Stein is here to share the stories of people passionate about cars,

from industry leaders and innovators to car-obsessed celebrities.

Buckle up as Jason takes you inside the boardroom, onto the track,

and around the bend on Cars and Culture on SiriusXM Business Radio.

Welcome back to Carson Culture here on SiriusXM. I'm your host, Jason Stein.

Now the continuation of my conversation with the legendary McLaren racing boss, Zach Brown.

To see the full interview with Zach, visit the Cars and Culture YouTube channel,

subscribe, comment, and check out hundreds of conversations with the creators,

collectors, and culture makers who are driving the industry forward.

You're all so big, and I have so many other subjects to touch on,

but one of the key ones is about endurance because I happen to be at the Pebble Beach

pre-Pebble Beach evening where you unveiled the 24-hour car for Le Mans,

which is a big moment for you. What does that mean as the

boss of the entire racing organization to get back to Le Mans from McLaren?

We've got great history there. We won on our debut in 1995 from a McLaren's point of view,

the three biggest races in the world are Monaco, Grand Prix, Indy 500, and 24-Hours of Le Mans.

We're the only team to have won all three, kind of called the Triple Crown. We won them in three

different decades. We want to win them all in the same decade in this papaya era that we're

in, which I think would be really cool. Entering the World Endurance Championship,

which is the 24-Hours of Le Mans part of that series, is a great way for us to work more collaboratively

with our automotive brothers and sisters, if you'd like. That's what we have history,

and we've won the Indianapolis 500 twice. We're coming off of our most successful year in Indy

Car since we got back involved winning a couple races, a few polls, 12 podiums. I like where

McLaren racing is. Now we need to work very hard to keep us at the front.

Well, and to that point, demonstrating a success level at a place like Le Mans is unparalleled,

and it is something that sets a benchmark for almost all of the other circuits, doesn't it?

I mean, it has that. It's an amazing race.

It propels you.

Yeah, and same with the Indy 500. These races are so long that not only have to be fast

and good, but lady luck needs to be on your side. Someone asked me the other day,

which is the hardest race to win, and it's like, I don't know. Where do you start?

You've got to have an unbelievably fast race car and driver to drive it perfectly to win Monaco.

Indy, you've got to stay out of trouble. 500 miles, and Le Mans. You need to last 24 hours,

and you need to do a better job than everyone else. Those are all quests, that's for sure.

Is there a unifying McLaren identity across all of those series,

or do you let each program run its own culture?

No, I think culture-wise, it's the same. We're all about our fans. We recognize without fans,

there'd be no McLaren, there'd be no racing. So we're very fan-focused in how we present

our racing team and how we like to engage with our fans and being a very inclusive team.

Having fun is something that is kind of core to our ways of working. Fun with our fans,

fun with our drivers, fun with the racing. Not to be mistaken for deadly serious,

but we're in sport. We are in the entertainment business. I don't understand those that see

sport as not entertainment. I think if you buy tickets to see something, whether it's a rock

concert, a motor race, a fireworks show, a movie, that's called entertainment. So entertainment

engagement with our fans is something that's core to everything that we do we want to win.

So we've got to have the best drivers, the best team, make sure we have healthy budgets,

great partners. So I know I think all three teams are very similar in that sense.

You all learn from each other too, right?

100%. Yeah, there's something you can always be learning every day.

I want to go back to endurance for a second because a rather famous racer just recently

completed his endurance license. You might be facing him on the grid on a regular basis,

Max Verstappen. You said recently that you'd be happy to work with Max Verstappen in endurance

racing. I mean, maybe even as a teammate at some stage. Does that make sense for you?

Yeah, I'm not sure he'd want me as a teammate. I used to race against his father,

Yos, who was extremely quick and I think could have had a better

form of the one career, but was kind of in the wrong place at the

right time, right? He was Schumacher's teammate. That's right.

I'm going to drop in in the middle of the season, who wants to be Schumacher's teammate,

and kind of dropped in because JJ Aledo was injured. Yeah, I mean, Max is a massive talent.

We have a lot of racing teams, so maybe one of these days we'll go racing with him.

I mean, massive talent is right and a massive talent who has accomplished so much so quickly

and there's a lot of talk about him wanting to take on new challenges.

Endurance is the natural one and obviously getting his license recently.

Yeah, I think we did it with Fernando Alonzo when we brought him D&D.

We're a racing team. We're racers, so I like that old school. Mario Andretti used to

race everything. Dan Gurney, Bruce McLaren, so I hatch off to Max that on his weekend off

of being at a Formula One race. He wants to be in a race car driving around the old Nordschleife.

I think that's really cool. I think so too.

What else is cool, another thing is that you've recently put pen to paper on a book.

Yep. Tell me about that process. What was that like?

It was a hard process. I'm not sure I'd want to do that again.

Right. That's what most authors say.

Yeah, I mean, it's cool. I'm happy with the final product. It'll be interesting to see

what everyone thinks of it that reads it. I hope they find it entertaining, but

I was approached and I never thought I'd be a, let's do a book, but it's got some fun stories.

But it's about what I've learned over the years, so it's not an autobiography.

It's much more about lessons in business because I've been in business my whole life.

A lot of stories, but I took it very seriously because I wanted it to be

accurate, so a lot of drafting, a lot of reading, but you'll see in it I'm not very

into school, so it did feel like doing homework once I got going. I don't want to do any more

homework, but it's good. It's got some funny stories, so hopefully it lands well.

How did you find the time to do that?

It was very time consuming, so that's the part where doing another book, I'll need to recover

from it because it is very time consuming more so than I thought, but that was more

because I'm a perfectionist and wanted to make sure we got it right.

Thematically, again, you're going to hit on some business leadership insights,

some great stories. Is there a story you can share with us that was a favorite of yours?

Probably my Mickey Mantle story.

Tell me that.

Baseball. I was 12, 13 years old. I found out he played golf at Preston Trails Country

Club. I don't know anything about golf, but he was a huge baseball guy. Mickey Mantle was my guy.

So I called the golf club every day asking if Mickey Mantle was in, and after about two weeks,

they said, hold on. About 15 minutes went by. I thought, oh my god, I'm being on the phone with

Mickey Mantle here. He picked up the phone. He thought it was a prank call, so he chewed

me out, hung up the phone. I was not in good shape having just been chewed out by my hero.

My mom came into the room and said, what's wrong? I explained it to her. She disappeared,

got him back on the phone. He thought it was a prank, and he felt terrible, and he said,

if you can make your way to Dallas, I'll spend some time with your kid. And my brother and my mom

and I got on a plane and went to the Dallas Hilton, spent half a day with Mickey Mantle.

So I think that was part of my sales career, which was finding out how to get in somewhere

and just call, call, call, call, call, and cold calls. And it was amazing.

Wow. What was he like in person?

Ah, so cool. He told us a ton of stories. I mean, I was in awe the whole time,

and he was very nice. He brought his manager with him and just told us stories, signed a bunch

of stuff. My biggest regret about all the signed stuff, we didn't bring a camera.

I'll have a single photo. Lots of autographs, a lot of posters, and things that he brought,

but not a single photo with Mickey Mantle. Who would have thought?

Baseball heroes are pretty unique when you're a kid. I mean, they're the biggest things.

I mean, think about, you know, with what goes on today. I mean, the fact that Mickey Mantle

felt bad and settled. He literally spent three, four hours with us sitting in the lobby and

talking. There's like early 80s, mid-80s. This would have been early 80s.

I mean, that's a pretty, pretty legendary thing. That's a legendary thing. Yeah.

How do you avoid the trap of short-term glory? I mean, you're right in the mix here of

the glory days, as Bruce would say. Recognizing that we got to keep

working extremely hard to try and keep these glory days extended. But we also know this is sport,

no one wins forever. So I live in a little bit of fear and paranoia. So for me,

personally, that's what gets me up out of bed every day is I take nothing for granted.

Even the worst team in Formula One is great. So our competition is immense.

Look at us at the beginning of 23. We were the worst team on the grid. And by the end,

we were the second best team. And, you know, everyone can do that. And so therefore,

we keep our feet on the ground. Enjoy the moment. But keep working hard

so we can continue to enjoy the moment. I know this is a way to premature question,

but because I only see you once every few years, I'll ask you this anyway. But

when you think about your time with McLaren and what you've accomplished,

what's the legacy that you want to leave culturally and competitively?

And I know that's a long way to go.

I don't think about it because I feel like I'm in the peak of my career and because it's

not driving. And I feel like I can have my peak for another 10 to 15 years. But,

you know, I'd like us to be a team that was very successful on track,

but one that was all about the fans and all about the team and our culture. So I guess,

you know, looking back in 20 years' time, you know, I remember the first time, you know,

I met Mickey Mantle. I remember the first time I met a racing driver and how that turned me

into a fan for life. So I hope that we can leave some memories that in 20 years' time,

that autograph we stopped for, that selfie or that engagement with the fan that we turned

people into lifelong McLaren fans and racing fans.

You stopped in Austin when I saw you in the paddock. You didn't know who I was,

but you did take a picture with me on my wall. So you're living up to exactly what you said.

I know how much of an impression every time I met someone made on me good or bad.

So I want to make sure, because I remember the bad ones too, I want to make sure that

every memory we leave behind is a good one.

Just a couple more. What's the biggest misconception

that fans have about what it takes to run a team at this level?

Oh, probably how complicated it is. And I wish we could explain every aspect that goes into our

decision making, but make no mistake about it. We also get it wrong. So that's probably,

you know, a frustration or something that people don't necessarily understand. And I

understand it because I don't go to every race. I go to the majority of the races,

but sometimes I'm back at the factory. Sometimes I'm traveling. Sometimes I'm at

an IndyCar race because it's important. I'm there. And the TV product is awesome.

But there's so much data going on that I can tell you that my viewing experience when I'm not

on pit wall is different because I'm lacking a lot of data. But you know what, without fans,

we wouldn't have a Formula One. So I appreciate their passion for the sport.

What's it going to mean to you when you raise the trophy again at the end of the year? I'm

going to presuppose that that happens. The constructors looks pretty good. So I feel more

confident in talking about that one and the drivers where Max is very much still in the

game. It's going to be awesome. The first one was especially coming down to the last lap, last race,

and against Ferrari, right? I kind of grew up McLaren, Ferrari, and Williams. And so to me,

you know, the story of competing with Ferrari for your first world championship just couldn't

have been sweeter. You're wearing papaya socks in the studio today. So you're living up to it.

You are the man who has trademarked papaya nation. You are leading them.

It's cool that we come up with a color that can be described as papaya because I've never heard

another team, those red teams or pinstripe teams or blue teams. But I don't know of any other

sport that has a papaya team. So that's worked out quite well. You own it, Zach.

We got to thank Bruce for that one. We got to thank Bruce for a lot of things.

Yeah. Congratulations on everything you've accomplished since I saw you last.

Thank you.

And I'll see you again and we'll see what you've accomplished in four and a half years.

Sounds like a plan.

Thank you, Zach.

That's my interview with Zach Brown. Now let's go to a replay of my first conversation with

Zach nearly four and a half years ago with McLaren deep on the grid and nowhere near

their starting position today. Here's my interview from 2021 with Zach Brown.

When you look at McLaren's progression in the Constructors' standings moving, I think just

four years ago you've gone from ninth to third overall.

Great job, Carlos. Pay six in the race but pay three in the Constructors' Championship

with that. Pay three in the Constructors' Championship.

What did you want to fix first when you arrived?

The first thing to fix was people and I didn't need to fix a lot of people. I just needed

to fix some and some key areas and then that takes time and then to bring clarity, simplicity,

transparency and communication. Morale was low, a bit of fear to speak up, lack of transparency,

lack teamwork. So you had to get the right people in and then there was a lot of and

this is just regular business titles all over the place, renumeration all over the place, lack of

clarity on bonuses. People didn't know when they got bonuses, why they got bonuses, how the bonuses

were determined and so I brought in Daniel Gallo who's head of people and culture,

fancy term for HR but the world moves on and it is about people and culture

and I asked him to kind of realign the organization. Let's make sure I want people to know

they should be able to measure their own success. If you lay out goals and objectives and KPIs

clearly I want people to be able to figure out what their bonus is without I don't have to

tell them because it was laid out very clearly, lay out goals and they shouldn't have to ask me

how are they doing because if the goals are laid out properly they should be able to figure

that out on their own. You've also, some have described the McLaren transformation as a transition

that's gone from crisis to confidence. Is that how you would describe it? I've never actually

really thought about it that way but actually I would agree with that and I think we were

ninth in the championship. If that is not a crisis I don't know what is, I guess tenth

but you're in bad shape and not in the championship and losing partners. So yeah I would say it was

a crisis. You had to kind of attack it like it wasn't a crisis because I think when people

hear crisis they panic so you had to have a real calmness and focus and I think we are

confident now. I think what led to the crisis was being cocky and arrogant and so you know we're

confident now but we're humble and it wasn't that long ago we were in a crisis so I think we're

far from being arrogant which is what got us in trouble in the first place. How has the business

of Formula One changed? You know the Netflix series now in year three Drive to Survive has

obviously peeled back the curtain for many fans and I think many non-fans to understand the

personalities, the dynamics, the pressure that goes into it. How has the business of F1 changed?

You know we kind of market it to ourselves and it's great that we have hundreds of millions

fans but we didn't do consumer research, we didn't have a digital strategy, we

didn't let people in the inside of Formula One. It's such an awesome sport not only on the track

but off the track and so when Chase came in I think he tried to consult everyone. He had a fresh

pair of eyes. He recognized that if we grow the sport we'll grow the franchise value of the

racing team so he set out with being a very consumer fan focused CEO so things like Netflix

have been spectacular for Formula One. The ratings are incredible. It's been unbelievable

and it's turned on so many fans, new fans to Formula One to let people in. Let them see how

cool this sport is from the inside out versus the outside in and the social strategy has been great

and so Chase set about which I think was his mandate from Greg of kind of get a hold of the sport,

get it set on the right trajectory, get the new governance, the new rules, the new technical

rules, the new revenue share, get all that in place and then hand it over and he did a great

job I think sitting here today Formula One's never been healthier. You're an avid collector of various

things Zach. One is historical documents. What do you collect and historical documents say?

I like the president so I've got something from every U.S. president, political leaders,

kings and queens and mobsters. Which mobsters? I've got most of the big names you know. I've got

everything from Al Capone's first arrest warrant with his fingerprints to

Lucky Luciano, to Bungie Siegel stock certificate from the Nevada project which was the Flamingo.

All the documents that I collect you know it's all about the content. So it's not just

about an autograph. It's about you know what what do they say? So I've got George Washington

writing to one of his lieutenants very angry that they let Benedict Arnold escape. So I mean some

pretty cool stuff. Richard Nixon's letter to Kissinger resigning the presidency of the

United States. There's some pretty awesome content and what's interesting is I had no

interest in that stuff in in school and I don't know if it's a little bit about me making up for

missing so many history classes but I now find the content and traveling the world. I do like

to I love Rome and going to see the Coliseum and the Roman Forum and I'm very fortunate

and privileged that I can now kind of catch up on my missed school and see some of this

stuff live. Live and in person. Yeah what's the most cherished item that you have from your

historical document collection? Then I'll ask you about the cars. It's probably what would be

probably that the I have one of four copies of the Declaration of Independence copies

that they were concerned that the original Declaration of Independence was starting to fade

might get destroyed. So in the early 1800s they ran about 150 copies directly from the Declaration

of Independence and they distributed it to you know governors or senators or you know people within

Congress and there's four remaining that we're aware of. One's in the White House, one's in the

Smithsonian and then two are in private hands. One is at Zach Brown's house. Yeah that has to be

probably the coolest document. That is a cool document. Let's talk about your cool cars. You

are an avid collector of not only road cars but racing cars. You have some 50 vehicles,

is that correct Zach? Yeah I think it's around around that number. You can tell I'm a bit

obsessive compulsive. A little bit right. List off the top four or five.

Poor. That's like 50 kids and saying what are your your favorite but I think I can narrow that

down because I've been asked the question before so I've given it some some thought.

First one would have to be I've got Erickson Senna's 91 Monaco winner. I won the championship that

year so Erickson Senna was my favorite driver. Monaco's the pinnacle along with obviously Indian

Le Mans from my standpoint motor sports. It's McLaren. He won the championship. It ticks

every box. So that would be number one. Number two would probably be my Emerson Fittipaldi 1989.

It's the car he won the Indy 500 in and the championship and it was an awesome win. I remember

it like it was yesterday. I bought the car directly from Roger. I remember when he called

me it wasn't that long ago. He's my hero in business and in motor sports. Emerson was

the first McLaren world championship driver. I love Indy car. I love Formula One so that one ticks

all sorts of boxes for that reason. Then I would say my Mario Andretti Lotus 79. Mario is a big hero.

Mine a great friend. A privilege. Probably one of the most proud moments of my career is Mario

won a lifetime achievement award in New York and I was asked to present him the award and I'd

never been so nervous. Had nothing to do with me. It was Mario's award. Like getting I'd never been

practiced or taking something so seriously. I just wanted to nail my introduction of Mario

and growing up the JPS livery Lotus to me was one of the most iconic cars.

And then number four would then be I've got the JLP three. The Porsche 935. I saw that car race in

Riverside in one Daytona Seabring 11 Durant racing. I think the Porsche 935 is so cool and

John Paul Jr. was a great guy. Obviously a very controversial father. And so kind of a

very young childhood experience for for me. But all my cars have some

they have a lot of emotional engagement with me personally and they all have some sort of

history that's relevant to my passion for the sport. So I look at them and love them all

including Schumacher's 97 Ferrari which he won in France as well as Montreal and he was the

champion that year. And I know you have a passion for these championship vehicles from historic

drivers. Would you need a Lewis Hamilton car one day? I've got one. Oh I've got one. I've got one.

I have a McLaren McLaren. I've got his 2012. It was part of my deal when I joined McLaren.

I wasn't going to miss the opportunity for a good negotiation. So unfortunately that's how I got my

hands on the Senna and Lewis car. I did pay for them but it was a privilege to be able to wrestle

them out of the collection in that particular car. He won the US Grand Prix in Austin and it

was there and did work with Verizon. We changed the brand in that race to Verizon which was

a partner of Otaphone and it won Monza from Pohl. So it was Lewis's last two wins with us.

So it's a pretty cool car. Indeed. You a music fan? I am a music fan. Yeah. Do you know this song?

The only reason I know that song is because he's got a very similar name.

Do you ever get asked if you're that Zach Brown? Less now but I used to get it when I was in

the States all the time. A couple funny stories. I was golfing in North Carolina and they heard Zach

Brown was going to be there and get on the first tee box and there's people waiting and like Zach

Brown's just beating off now. It's like I am and it was like you're not Zach Brown. It was like

I am Zach Brown. That's episode 221 with Zach Brown. I'm your host Jason Stein. Great to

have Zach back in the studio in New York with us. Like, subscribe and dive into our growing

library of more than 200 episodes on the Cars and Culture YouTube channel. It's where the road

always leads to the people who shape the ride. I'm your host Jason Stein. We'll see you down the road.

Porsche 935

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