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for details. Hey everybody, I'm Dillon Hart Jr. And this is the Dirty 30.
The best highlights from all of our podcasts this week. 30 minutes every single Friday,
the Dirty 30 coming at you. Let's get right to it.
This episode of the Dirty 30 is presented by Arby's new meat and three box. Get more
meal for your money at Arby's. We have the meats, which bring me to some comments made by
Elton Sawyer. Oh, yeah. Do you see that? So Elton says, chase this down for me.
Elton Sawyer says, uh, you know, I guess he was, he was talking on serious exam or
something and he, and they asked him about the state of restricted plate racing or
racing at Daytona and Talladega. You don't see this at Atlanta for some reason, but at Daytona
and Talladega, um, he says they've had discussions about stage links at those two
races regarding the fuel savings. So they're, they're trying to figure out, all right,
A, do we have a problem? Is fuel saving truly an issue? Uh, is the fact that the cars ride
around half throttle the entire race problematic or is that racing steal? Right? Because
he says it's conflicting that they can hear the chatter about running half throttle.
But if he turns off the radio and just watches the race, he sees cars running for
wide and fans standing and cheering. Um, and so that lowered, that, you know, that lowers
the discussion around fuel saving and modifying the racing at Daytona and Talladega in any way,
that lowers it down the priority list. Um, when considering things like bringing back
the chase and some other items on their, on their to-do list, and he says in quote,
what do we want to fix? I know Elton is just trying to like say to people, like really, what
do we, are we, is it a really that serious of a problem? Is it maybe not such a big problem that
we don't have to really try to make a change just for the sake of making a change? Cause I
don't know that they know what to change, right? Yeah. Same. They've talked about,
you know, could they change the stage links? Would that make the teams run harder? Fuel cell
size? I mean, yeah. You know, I, I don't, we, we went to smaller cells before. That was a pain in
the ass. You just pitted more. You know, you just pitted more. You didn't, you're still going to try
to eliminate a stop if you can. I know, but it was just annoying to have to pit more. Um,
drivers want to race. Drivers want to be on the track, not coming down pit road because
your fuel cells, 13 gallons. Um, we did that. We didn't like it. I wouldn't want to go back
to that. That wouldn't get me. I'm trying to make a change. TJ that's going to make me want to tune in
change, making the fuel cells smaller on a car ain't exciting. All right. It's not sexy. So
what we could, what, you know, I don't have an answer, but I just, I do believe I do know one
thing I do not like that they go out there and run half throttle and two seconds off the pace.
I don't like it. I don't like it. So Elton, we don't like it. Like, and to, to say, well, if we don't
talk about it, is it really a problem? If it's not, you know, if the casual fan doesn't realize
what's going on, then we shouldn't, we shouldn't consider it an issue. I don't know if I like
that. I don't love that he said that. That's my problem is you're now basically telling
your hardcore fans, we're not thinking about you. All he had to say is we're thinking about it,
but we have to worry about the unintended consequences if we make a change. Listen,
this is the, let me say this too. And this is my, this is a compliment to NASCAR. This is the
only, only thing that rubbed me wrong when in all of the last couple of weeks, this is the only
thing that was like, what the heck man? That this is the only thing. All right. So we're on a
fricking, we're on a good path. Things are going good. We've got great marketing,
seen all the commercials, see all the little clips, social media clips and everything that
they're doing. The hell yeah, all that. A lot of momentum. It's great. It's good. They did a great
job. You know, when they came out with that, you know, when we saw, when we saw some like,
when we saw like a behind the curtain about that hell yeah stuff, everybody was clowning
it. What the hell are we doing? We even talked about it here. It's, it's great. It turned out great.
You know, and how do you keep everything a secret? I'm, you know, you, they can't,
you know, they can't be expected to like keep everything under wraps, but it turned out great.
O'Donnell's been doing great. Everybody's doing good. A lot of communication. There's been
more communication behind the scenes than I've seen in a long time with NASCAR. NASCAR
eagerly wants this to work. They badly want this to work and they're not us.
That was the only thing that I was like, man, come on. What the? You know, now we're all smart.
So the fuel saving era is not an, and it's not NASCAR's fault. It's just the teams have
found a way to like a strategy to like, you know, give them an advantage late in the race
and, and they've got to minimize it. You know, when we went to this car and it's, it fuels slower,
like it, you know, the tires go on faster and the fuel takes longer to go in. That's
what created this, right? What is the one thing that keeps you on pit road? Putting fuel in the
car. So can you minimize that and spend less time on pit road and give yourself an advantage?
Yes. That's what, that's how this happened. The single lug shortened up the tire side
of the pit stop and now fueling is the outlier that, that you need to eliminate the most as much
as you can. So they go out there and they save as much as they can and they have to put less in
the car. It's been less time on pit road and they get, you know, they're trying to put themselves
in position late in the race with the track position to go out there and maybe have a shot
of winning and it's frustrating to watch them ride around. You know, but I feel like if they
don't change anything, people will have to set themselves apart. Everybody can't go out there
and save. The guy running 20th, saving with his, you know, like the guy running up front
is not at an advantage anymore because he doesn't, he, you know, the guy up front saving fuel too.
You, I mean, the advantage is lost. So you might see some teams say, screw that,
we're going to run hard. We're going to hope that the cautions fall in our favor.
And that's the risk we're going to take. Didn't we see the Toyotas in one of the
Super Speedways last year try to push the pace on everyone else?
It's a couple of years ago.
Like that's what you need is like a group to get together and like, let's try something.
Yeah. Yeah. My, my fear is what's worse, this or running hard, like at Talladega,
when everybody ran hard, it was two by two, nobody moved. Yeah. You know that,
what would you rather have?
Well, that's, I mean, TJ, the, you mentioned it earlier, this car, if you do,
if you don't want to save and you go out there and hold a car full throttle, right?
And you go out and try to take the lead. You can't drive away. You can't.
The car has so much drag that if you run wide open, you're just sitting in front of the field,
running wide open, helping, helping the guys that are saving. So the car has a ton of drag on it.
That's, that's a car problem. I think that I don't know that there's many drivers,
mechanics, and crew chiefs that would disagree that, you know, the car, the drag on the car
and how lag, you know, how the whole package, the power versus the drag,
if I'm out there running half throttle, a full second slower than my car is capable of going,
I want you to be able to go full throttle and literally drive away from me.
You know, drive away, put seconds between you and me and you can't do it with this car.
Yeah, definitely can't do it.
No. And that's not, that's not all right. That ain't all right.
What's the easiest fix to reduce drag?
Uh, spoiler can get shorter. Everything about, you know.
What if they just took the spoiler off the back?
I don't know if you could knock the spoiler off at Daytona. I think you could. I mean,
they would have to drive it. They'd have to test to be able to get the cars comfortable again.
And I, what if they're not? Why don't they have to be super comfortable though?
No, no, no. I mean, so they don't just crash.
I think if you took a spoiler off a car right now, you would have to spend a little bit
of time putting some grip back in the back, but, and that's realistically, listen,
could the teams find that?
Yes. No question. Got it.
And I, I will, you can't change my mind until you wouldn't be able to change my mind until
you, you sent a car out on the racetrack and I saw with my own eyes that it wouldn't work.
The, if you look at some of the driver photos from Daytona of the guys when they kneel by
the car, qualifying to start finish line. Yeah.
And the, I'd say the late 80s, they were laying their spoilers back before there was
a spoiler rule to 15, 10, 20 degrees. So not, there's not much there.
Nothing. So I think there was a, there was a rule on the length of the spoiler.
They might actually just take the spoiler off.
So we have ran a crap ton less spoiler at Daytona in NASCAR in a couple of different
eras. I feel like those cars would be a man, a handful with no spoiler.
Well, man, I remember, and I know it was different asphalt bumpy Daytona, but I remember
like lifting in the duals, you know, we'd be racing in the duals on Thursday and,
and plow and tight going in the corner up to the top of the racetrack and all the way,
all the way out of the gas into the center of the quarter and then back full throttle.
Well, that would create running forth.
That would create some racing. Yeah. Oh, dude.
And we're sitting there running our ass off and I'm like, man, I can't go anywhere.
I'm, you know, I'm a couple of car links in front of me as a car.
Jeff Burton was behind me and he's running fifth and we're all tight,
lifting out of the gas, up to the wall, back in the gas.
Here comes Jamie Murray rolling right around the bottom, just passed us all
because he's handling and, uh, well, I'd take that.
Oh man, that, that.
So that's what I was asking you at the start when you said good racing.
What do you think is some different people look at things differently?
Like Elton Sawyer said, there are some fans and they use it in commercials and everything.
They'll see that three wide and go, that's bad ass.
It is bad ass.
And then there's some people that'll see cars strung out and a guy out handling everybody
and working his way through the field and go, that's bad ass.
You know, so it's a little bit different for everybody.
But I don't, when we go to Daytona, this is where I, where I land on all of it.
We go to Daytona and Talladega, but more so for the 500.
It's a two and a half mile track.
Daytona's synonymous with running wide open, holding the throttle down,
running your ass off, hair on fire, kill Yarborough, 201 mile an hour,
busting his ass in turn four and flying up into the guardrail.
You know, Buddy Baker and the Grey Ghost destroy in the freaking field.
Holland ass is what Daytona and the Daytona 500 is about.
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You talked about building cars for Richard Petty. You were the one that built the chassis
for the car that flipped down the straightway at Daytona. Not the way you want to see that go,
but you talk about building safe race cars. That was a hell of a wreck. Richard's
toward the back end of his career at that point. Those wrecks are harder to
walk out of in his case. You had to be pretty happy with how that thing held up,
considering all the things that went through during that crash.
Yeah, because I was standing on pit road, and when it happened right in front of us,
I'm like, oh no, this is bad. When he finally stopped, the flipping part wasn't so bad,
but when he got hit in the left front and spun him so fast, where Dale Inman's on the
radio going, you know, Dale, Richard, you all right? You're all right? You're all right? Never
said a word. Never said a word. Richard, you all right? You're all right? And finally,
he finally came on the radio and he said, yeah, I'm all right. I'm all right,
but I can't see nothing. He said, my eyes aren't working. And the doctors said when he spun
it so fast that the blood vessels, the blood went out of his eyes, and he couldn't see.
The biggest problem he had was his knees and stuff were banged up so bad.
And so I was going to relief drive for him at Richmond the next race. They had me,
a pair of standby, and I was in the trailer the morning of the race, and he said, you're
going to be all right? And I said, yeah, I'll be all right. And he said, well, I'll just get
you sued on when it's race starts. And he said, if I feel bad, we'll just make, stop whatever
we do, lose laps, whatever we do. And the doctor coming there started taking fluid out of his
knees. And I'm like, there's no way he's going to run this race and shoot about first cost and come
out. We run good. And he said, I'm going to be fine. He said, I ain't going to get out.
So I just went and took the driver's suit off and watched. You ran, you know, you talk about
being a standby for him. You had raced in the cup series a handful of times, but not many.
You raced your, your debut was at North Wilkes-Burle in 93. You'd run a two starts in 94
at Wilkes-Burle, Martinsville, all short tracks. You had a bad crash at Pocono.
Had an engine from Ernie Elliott running good in practice,
made an adjustment and got, got yourself turned around backwards, broke your ankle.
Yeah. We went to Pocono and tested and we rented a racetrack back when you could rent
the racetrack. And we were by ourselves up there that day. And, and time wise, I was slow.
But we had a motor now that Ernie had given me to test with. And he said, it's just,
it'll get you around the racetrack. And so we kept working on it, working on it,
and really didn't run fast. And I called Terry Labani and I said,
where do I need to lift going into one? And he said, well, you need to lift about, you know,
number five or something on the board, you know, there. He said, where you lifting?
And I said, one. He said, you don't have no motor. You know, he said, if it drives good,
you'll be fine. So we come back and Ernie sent us a new motor and we got the racetrack.
Ernie said, this thing is better than, than bills. I'll tell you. He said,
it's going to be better than bills. So we were top 10 fastest first practice.
I had a guy, Dean Johnson, that was crew chief man. He come over and this one spoiler
had a spoiler height rule, but you could put it whatever you want to angle with.
And he said, you can you run faster than that on another mock run?
I said, I guess so. He said, I'm going to lay, take some spoiler out of it.
Wrong thing to do. I get into one down there. And just before I go to third gear,
it turns around backwards and I hit the water driver's door.
And it ricochets off the wall and comes back down. And I remember coming back down
in the full cars on a mock run and he comes by my nose at 175 mile an hour, miss me as I'm
sliding backwards. And the spotters on the radio yelling, are you all right? Are you all right?
I'm still sliding. And finally, Ernie Yellett, he's over in the garage here. I heard him
yell at the boy with them talking to him and he said, he's still, he said, not through wreck and
leave him alone. So you broke your ankle there? Yeah. Yeah, I got the drillings going. You don't
realize you hurt, you know, get out and step and your leg folds up and then my knee
was dislocated where it caused steering columns and just won him deals. You know, you kind of
wonder what year that was. What year was that? That was 94. You ran the All Star Open in 95
in a ride sponsored by Diamond Rio. Right. How did that come about? Well, the Mr. Wilson
owned the cars. He was vice president RJ Reynolds. Yeah. And he took care of the cars. We
kept them in our shop and then we, we had been messing with some people, the Blue Rhino people,
the propane people. Yeah. They were just starting and they wanted to be on the car and they knew
some people in the music industry. And so they come by the shop one night, Mr. Wilson did and
he said, I think we got a sponsor. He said, you know about Diamond Rio? And I said, the
trucks? And he said, no. He said, country music. So he said, go get some CDs and listen to them.
And so they're gonna sponsor us. And so it was, it was a good, it was a good deal. They were nice,
really nice. We went to several shows with them. But it was, I got in the middle of a divorce
and the, the racing was, you know, racing and with two young children, you know, it's kind of,
they had people come in to buy into the team and they wanted to change, you know, because we went to,
went to Richmond and I missed a race by 2000th of a second, you know, and then,
and so they just kind of like went to other direction. Yeah. I was upset, but you can't
blame them. You know, this money and this sport. That was the end of your,
your career on the, you know, in terms of cup racing and, and bus starts, you know, eventually
you would build cup cars for dad. The car that dad wrecked Terry with at Bristol was your
race car, your chassis. At the time, Kevin Hamlin was the crew chief on the car.
They had their own chassis shop, but they came over to you looking for something different.
Well, they, they were buying cars from Hopkins then. Yeah. You know, and so then
Kevin, them coming to the shop and wanted, they decided they wanted to try something different.
What were you going to do that's different? I mean, it was just,
my cars were a little bit, going to be a little bit lighter. Yeah. Like at the time,
I had bought a dye that the Plymouth tube company that makes rollbar pipe and they made
us a dye that I bought and they would run a meal run of my rollbar tubing that was
90,000 plus or minus a half where everybody else was 95,000 period. And, and I got to choose my,
the carbon rated and I wanted the type of tensile strength I wanted and it made a difference.
Yeah. And so we built, they come over and wanted to, they said, build us two cars,
but don't tell nobody. Yeah. Don't tell nobody who they're for and I got them done and they come
picked them up and that one evening after work and took them to RCR and the next morning,
I don't think they, it's lucky they still had a job. Really? Yeah, it didn't go away.
It didn't? Why? Who was mad? Yeah, I mean, there was, people kind of over, over the crew chiefs
were not happy. Yeah. That they just went out on their own and did it. And they tested
them, you know, started testing them and they, they were always good, real good. And then finally,
they poked a Dale wrecked last practice after qualifying and they carried mine as a backup
every week and they pulled mine off and he started in the rear and I think he run third or
something and he should have needed just a little bit more. He could have won the race. Sure.
And that was, there was a one, the car he loved was serial number 44. And he wouldn't run that thing
everywhere. We didn't run those speedways was all short track and Charlotte and stuff because
we were, they raced at Richmond one night and he got in a wreck down there and knocked right
front corner off and smashed some dark bottom two door bars up and they called me and said,
look, we got to be at Charlotte Wednesday. We'll have a stature shop in the morning,
Sunday morning at eight o'clock and we need it back by that night. We had to call my guys and
say, look, it's shop. We got to fix the car. We put a half front clip on it, two door bars.
They picked it up and they was at Charlotte with the thing Wednesday. And then that's,
that's the car he ran it at Bristol when he rattled Terry's cage. Yeah.
That was your, your only cup career win as a chassis builder.
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Right up here for the stage. The fans on the Daytona. Hey, crowd. Good to see everybody.
Got Jeff Gluck here. Freddie. And Jeff Gordon has joined us today. Jeff Gordon.
Hey there. Dale had, your dad had a love-hate relationship with every competitor, by the way.
You know, like, he would put his arm around him. Hey, buddy, let's go hunting and fishing.
And let's do this. And then the next week, spending them out wrecking them on the track.
So, you know, you just kind of, you became aware and familiar with that.
That was the kind of relationship that you could potentially have if you got into that
inner circle. And I just always looked up to him, had the most respect. And then, you know,
as my career started taking off, the business side started taking off. And, you know, back
then we used to fly on planes together to tracks. And you just, you spent more time. You go up
in the, in the hauler, you know, the NASCAR hauler, and you just spent more time together
as drivers than I feel like they do today. And you get to know one another, whether you
like it or not. And, and so, you know, just created some conversations with, you know,
him and myself about your, I remember, he's the first one told me, you gotta own your rights
to your license. He's like, if you don't have that, you gotta go get that. You know,
in your next driver contract, you need to, you know, control the licensing. And,
you know, like he was the one that really led me down that path. And then, of course,
when action performance came along and the die-cast market just blew up, he was, you know,
leading that charge and, and riding. And he knew that, hey, it's not just a, a one-man show. It was,
this thing's going to be bigger. And the sports going to be bigger. And the fans are going to
get more access to things if all of us come together. And so he came to me and said,
now, of course, his way of coming together and throwing an idea,
hey, here's what you're going to do. A contract's going to come to you. There's no email, right?
Contracts and come over. You're going to look it over. If you want to have a lawyer look at it,
that's fine. But you're still going to sign it one way or another. That'll happen on Tuesday.
You know, like that. And you just go, okay. And, and listen, every one of the deals worked
out really well. So I'm glad it happened the way it did. Yeah, that's pretty awesome. I,
I always enjoy knowing that how, how you guys were able to, like y'all, y'all, he and you and him
and all these other guys like Schrader, Rick Mast, and they all have stories about, you know,
run-ins on the racetrack with that. But off the racetrack, y'all all figured out a way to,
you know, put that aside till next Sunday and, and do business and, and do things that
were successful together. And then you get out on the racetrack and, and you know, run into each
other and flip each other off and be as bad as you could be, you know. Yeah. There were, there were
two times that I don't think I've gotten over it yet. I can remember the first time and, and I
looked, this was such a huge life lesson for me as a driver. Well, it was my rookie year
in 93. And, and I think it was the last or maybe second or third last, no, it wasn't the
last race because it was in Phoenix. The last race back then was in Atlanta. So second or third
to the end of the season. And he was, as he always was in the hunt, you know, for the championship.
He didn't win at 93, did he? I don't think he won 93. I know he won at 94. Anyway, so, so I'm racing
like, I'm in seventh, something like that. And he and I are, are bound for that position.
We had about equal cars. And somehow I got ahead of him, maybe on a, on a pit sequence
or something. And he, you know, he's just right on me. And I, I gave him the inside and, and
we race side by side for about two laps. And that was one and a half, two minutes. Oh yeah.
And we went down to turn three and I thought I gave him enough room and boom,
around I go pow in the wall. And, and I, I was like, man, I didn't know I came down on
crowd and like that. I realized later I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. It was just his way of saying,
hey kid, yeah, that's, that's not going to get done, especially with me. So, so I never,
you know, I made sure that I was always understanding the situation. It was situational
awareness was what the lesson was. And, and he had more on the line than I did that day.
And I didn't need to be racing that hard. And then what was the other one? Oh shoot.
Gosh darn it. I'm going to think about here in a second. It sounds like you're over it.
Yeah. I'm definitely not. Oh, no, no, it was, we were Michigan practice, practice on a Saturday.
Okay. And, and we, we were about to take off pit road and Ray Eberham comes over. He's like,
he's like, listen, just, you got a good race car. We're just trying to get this thing,
you know, for the, for the later practice, right? Get it, get a ride. Don't worry too
much about right now. And he's like, just, you know, let Dale go. Because they don't,
like when in practice, but he would run a practice like it was a race. He wanted to race you as hard
as he could in practice. So we always kind of knew just stay away from, from racing anybody, really.
And so, so I remember I come off pit road and, and let him he yarded, you know, he's way out
there over straightaway head. And then I start running and my car is really good. And so I'm,
I'm closing in on him. And then all of a sudden he starts really slowing down.
And so I'm like, okay, he's going to let me go and he'll get him behind me. And I remember I come off
of turn two. Yeah, come off of two. And I mean, he's checked up on the outside. I get a big run.
And all of a sudden he gets right to my quarter panel, just enough where I can't clear him.
And we go down three and I'm just like, surely he's going to let me go. So I'm just going to
drive in real deep. No, no, he drove in deeper, right on my door and sucked me right around.
I backed that thing in the wall, destroyed the car and he was unscathed as usual. And, and so,
man, I got, and Ray was pissed at me. He wasn't mad at them. He's like, what did I tell you? Stay,
I said, he was letting me go. I thought he was letting me go. So that was another life lesson.
Is there been moments that you remember being on the other side of that where you were
teaching a young driver on the racetrack, how it's done? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean,
that's why later, you know, I realized, especially the 90, the 93 thing, like as a rookie, every
rookie that came in, you had to teach them that lesson. Like it was, it was your duty.
When they came, if they thought they were too good or they were running up front and, and
you're using up a little too much track or what, you're like, yep, here comes that Dale senior moment.
Man, we can stop here. I might not wreck them, but I definitely moved them in. Oh, I'm sure. I learned
a lot being around you on the racetrack and in the office as well. It's been a lot of fun over
the years and appreciate you giving us some time today. It's awesome to sit up here and just
listen to some of these stories. You know, you, you're a great icon in the sport, man.
And it's awesome to see you as involved as you are and, and I hope you,
I hope you have a good weekend this weekend with your guys. Hopefully you run
one, two, three, four, five with that 40 out front. Listen, listen, you say you got a better
car this year. You finished 10th last year. So, you know, you got some big shoes to fill now,
but now it's going to be great. We're excited. We, you know, just excited about this year,
the Daytona 500 and we got a great car, great chance, you know, for all of our guys and
can't wait to work with you and, and Justin, the 40 team out there as well as like an extension
of 100 motorsports. Really cool to be a part of that. And, and thanks for not calling me a pioneer.
You call me an icon instead. I think I like that.
You're not a pioneer yet. I think when you retire, you're when you retire, you're gold.
Carol Edwards called me a pioneer one time. Yeah, I laughed at that, but I'm honored that
my hood is at the studio. That's amazing. And I can't wait to get up there and see
it person. Awesome. Jeff Gordon. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff Gordon.
So we got a little bit of an announcement to make. I don't, Jeff, you want to do this.
You're, you're, you're a deal, but I have to tell everybody a secret, I guess, because,
you know, when you do a podcast right after the race, you haven't heard what anybody else
thinks. So like, I haven't heard actions that your mental or DBC or dead in your
download. So sometimes you're just kind of like, I'm like, man, this just happened.
We got off the pit road. We come to do the podcast and I'm like talking about stuff.
I'm like, I think this is right. I think this is what people are going to think about this,
but my show is just after the race. So I don't have any else, anything else to,
to say. So I'm going to be doing a Thursday show now. It's going to be on the tear down
feed. And it's going to be on my YouTube channel. Is this the name of it? This is
the name. The name of it is the gut cast. Is it? Okay. I love it. I don't pick that name
yourself. Didn't you? They said that I had to have a, because it's on the tear down feed has to
have my name in it. And I was like, I don't know about the gut cast. I don't think anybody's
going to forget it. I'm pretty excited about it. I love listening to y'all's content.
I learned so much about things that are being discussed in the sport from y'all.
I think you keep all of us sort of up to speed on really truthfully what the
big conversations are in the garage and in the industry. And so I'm pretty,
I'm pretty excited about this show and look forward to it. I mean, it'll be interesting to see kind
of how what your perspective is going in and then how you may change what you say and do on the
tear down after the race, right? Because you've got this, this preview and this post reaction
now. I'm looking forward to it. It's the tear down, the gut cast. All right. It's a weekly
spinoff. So it's debuting February 19th. New episodes dropping every Thursday.
And there'll be an audio version as well as a YouTube version. We'll all be checking that out.
All right. That was another episode of the dirty 30 presented by Arby's new meet in three
box. Get more meal for your money at Arby's. We had the meat.
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