George Williams | The Project Safari Elise And Get Lost Automotive

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Hi, welcome to the CarJap podcast. I'm Sam Moors, and today I'm joined by George Williams, GF Williams.

In the previous episode, we discussed his photography. He's a commercial car photographer

working on high-end stuff. You might have recently seen launch photos for things like the Zenvo.

He's shot all of those and lots of other cool stuff. But the reason I got him back

on the podcast is he has a new project, a new venture called Get Lost Automotive.

It's a Resto mod type thing. The first car is called Project Safari, which is a Lotus Elise S1

off-road type thing with the main aim, I think, to be not so serious and a lot of fun in terms of

the nature of the car, but not in terms of actually building it and putting it together.

We cover all sorts of things, like a little bit of photography, but things like 3D scanning,

CAD modeling, small volume builds, what makes Resto mods work. George has a lot of exposure

through his photography to a lot of these brands that are building these things, picking bits from

here and there that he likes and doesn't like. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's always good to

have a chat to George and enjoy. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the CarChat podcast. I'm Sam Morse,

and today in a studio, not really a studio, a room, I have George Williams. Hello.

Hello. Welcome. Thank you. This is probably the second podcast we've done, I think.

Yeah, it is. We did one. We were talking about it a couple of years ago.

I covered a lot of your photography, a lot of photography chat background, how you got into

being a commercial photographer. Is that how you brand yourself on that front?

Yeah, a commercial car photographer.

You called me up the other day and said, I've got a project. I think it's probably more than

that now, but a project I'm working on that might be interesting. This was quite a few months ago

now, and I thought we'd come in and have a little bit of a chat. So what have you been up to?

Where did this begin? Okay. So some people may have seen on the internet about a month ago,

depends when this comes out, maybe more. There was what could be described as a lifted Lotus

Elise S1 that we launched. Our company is called Get Lost, which I think is a bit of fun.

And we're playing into that with the attitude of the company. We're not taking ourselves too

seriously. But the vehicle is called Project Safari. And you could describe it as a reimagined

version of a Lotus Elise. So we've taken Elise S1 and we go back to basics and go,

actually, how do we make this more fun? How do we make this

without restriction of when you're building a new car and regulations that are issues of

registering, et cetera? Right. How do we go and make this more interesting and fun without

trying to be too serious? And how do we make this silly? That's ultimately what it comes down to.

Okay. So where did this journey to start? Like what got you into whether it was

why a Lotus and why Cillian? It probably needs a bit of a description of what I've done

for the last 15 years of my life. I'm a commercial car photographer. I've worked for lots of different

brands. But I kind of specialized doing the more bespoke brands, the RestoMod companies,

the hypercars. And I haven't deliberately pushed myself in that direction, but I love that kind

of car. I really appreciate the engineering details, the design, and capturing it and

understanding it. So to me, that's really important. So I have experienced what I would describe as

pretty much all the cars in the industry, whether driving or shooting, like meeting the designers,

meeting the lead engineers on a lot of these cars. And there's a lot of very good things out there.

There's also some bad things out there. And I saw opportunity for something where we go,

actually, let's just have some fun. Let's create something interesting. And as a photographer,

I'm looking for other avenues of a career, longer term, which we'll get into a bit later,

I'm sure. But I love things like the Dakar, the Storato, and the ability they have to just go

anywhere without restriction. To me, that's really interesting.

We've done quite a few road trips. And a few silly ones.

And some silly ones together. And normally, on those ones, someone is taking something that

maybe shouldn't be somewhere to a place. We've done quite a few in the snow and some in the sand.

Normally, if I look back, you had a, I remember, you had a catering for a long time, I think,

and took that quite a long distances. My biggest road trip in that is I drove it from

effectively London to Croatia and back. And it was really enjoyable going there.

It was really unenjoyable when I realised I had to come back.

There is something in that, isn't it? When you are driving somewhere on a road trip,

the journey out normally just feels great. And the journey back is, I want to be home now.

Yeah. And that car is about as extreme a car as you want to take on a road trip,

although I felt better the whole time because I did it with someone who was in an aerial atom.

Whenever it rained, I just put my little roof on and only got a little bit wet.

He got soaked and it was horrible.

So, okay. Your journey with Lotus as well. You have had an exige.

Yes. So, I've owned a Lotus exige V6, which is their last generation of the exige for nearly 10

years. And in fact, last time we spoke, it was as I was doing a project to effectively fully

rebuild the car. And I didn't do it because of any crash damage or anything like that.

I did it because I wanted a project. And I just wanted to see how far I could take that platform.

And I think most people will agree, it went quite a long way. It's one of the most extreme

looking at least exiges out there. And the quality, which I achieved, I'm quite proud of.

Things like we've got tinted carbon on it and everything fits really well.

I remember early days, if you're doing this project, and I think this is obviously part

of your nature, as if you're a commercial automotive photographer, you've got to be into

details. And I remember you playing around, I think it was with, is it air vents? Have you

got the air vents from like an F12 or something like that in there? I do, yes. They didn't remotely

fit. So, I made them fit. And that involved a lot of cutting and etc. And that's kind of,

that was the original approach of the exige that's led me to where I am now. I know how to do

things properly now. I involve the right people when I need to, which is quite a key skill to know

how to do. I can't do everything. And there's some very talented people out there who can.

Yeah, what would you say the big, like big learnings from that car that just generally,

and how you're doing stuff, are you saying getting other people involved?

Yeah, there's like, I can come up with ideas. And I can visualize how things want to be.

And I used to use Photoshop for that to go, oh, I wonder what this will look like if I extend

this or do this design feature. And then I would either take it to a trimmer or take it to a painter

and find the best people I can for that. And they would hide my sins of how I've done the

bodges underneath. Nowadays, I will do things in CAD to visualize it. I've taught myself CAD

very, very quickly. And I'm not amazing, but I'm able to design parts, which is quite nice. And

then we can prototype them with 3D printing and other manufacturing techniques and CNC.

So it's all come on quite a long way quite quickly. And if it's out of my

skill set, I go to other people that can do better CAD and make sure things fit

tolerances as they should, et cetera. And in terms of redesigning stuff now,

can you, do you just take the existing part, scan it and then mess with it?

Yeah, we've been doing a lot of forget loss. We've done a lot of 3D scanning. And that was

basically how we started the project was get a donor car and 3D scan. For the exige,

I was doing things like extending body lines with filler and fiberglass and that kind of thing,

which has its limitations. So it's a big learning curve of how to do the proper process.

And before you started, you who spent, as you say, your sort of specialty, your niche,

has been in these sort of all sorts of manufacturers, but particularly like high end,

small, doing kind of crazy stuff. Do you think that's been a key part for you of your learning?

You get to spend a bit of like drop in to a lot of these different places and sort of go,

I like the way they do that. Not sure about that.

Yeah. And it's probably a bit like you with podcasting where you understand a lot about

lots of different things very quickly. And I'm very lucky to have that experience. Like people

will explain things to me. And I actually have to be quite careful that I don't become a conflict

would get lost in any way to any of my photography clients. So that's one of the reasons that the

whole thing is pitched as being very silly, because it doesn't really become a competitor

to people if we're just doing our own thing and being stupid.

Yeah. And I guess like before before get lost was was around. That's it. It was a bit like the

podcast you can go in because you're you're not a competitor. You're not doing anything similar.

You're a photographer like I'm trying to help people at the end of the day. That's how I see it.

I want to understand every element of the car I'm going to shoot from design to engineering to

everything underneath it. So that when I then photograph it, I photograph it in a way that

shows it off in its best light. And I understand the importance of design within that. And a lot

of people, they kind of think of just themselves when they do cars and don't think about how other

people are going to use it, etc, etc. And the design is so important and get lost has been very

designed first. Yeah. And that's not to say there's not engineering because it's really hard to do

what we've done. And there's a lot going on beneath the skin. Yeah. But there was also massive

visual things that were visual led decisions. And I should probably step back a little bit.

One of the big reasons that I wanted to do a lifted Lotus as well. Yeah. I love lightweight

cars. I grew up with caterings. My dad had them. I then had my own caterings. I had a VX220.

And then I had the XEGE, which I still have because I love it. But the XEGE, it's quite low.

It's quite race car-y now. And in fact, as I pulled onto the driveway today, annoyingly,

the wheel hit into the arch again for probably the fifth time. And it just gets a bit tiresome

having to worry about bumps and the roads in England are rubbish. And weirdly, it's literally

driveways. It's driveways, it's speed bumps, it's potholes. It's just constant. I drive that car

loads still. I'm nearly 80,000 miles in it, which is quite good going, I think. And I still just

take it for no reason at all, just because I like driving. And that's what I want to create.

A car would get lost that enables that even more. So it's an experience. It just puts a smile on your

face, but also other people's. Yeah. And so why, at least, what is it? Series one?

There's several reasons. For a start, it's 25 years old now, which has its benefits for America.

I was looking into potentially moving to Los Angeles at some point. And I would still potentially

love to one day or maybe live between England and LA, just because I love how the culture is there

with cars. So that was a consideration, just my XEGE can't go out there legally for many, many,

many years. Would that stop you moving because you can't take the XEGE?

No, because I can still send it every year, which would probably be the solution.

But in all honesty, having driven Project Safari a little bit, and not massively in anger yet,

because we're building things up with development, I think it's going to be more fun. So the car,

the base of the ease is about 700 kilos. Yeah.

My XEGE is 1100. That's a big old weight difference.

It is. And you feel it massively in things like the steering and compliance of the car.

And when you then increase suspension travel, you have the benefit of much better ride quality.

It just floats over bumps and you don't feel the rubbish, horrible, hot, holy stuff.

You do feel the bits you want to, which is quite nice. And it takes a lot of work to get to that

stage. Is it? So then is there that thing? Because you hold steering wheel in certain cars,

and you feel like you feel the road. But at the same time, you don't want to feel every...

Your GT3 RS is probably the best example of steering of pretty much any car that or a Lotus

Evora where it's hydraulic and it filters out the rubbish stuff and you keep the good stuff.

Yeah. That's what we're aiming towards. My XEGE, I feel the bad stuff still.

It's the bump steer and... Yeah, it's quite intense. Yeah, it's exhausting, especially today and the

rain and... You were saying, oh, I could bring the XEGE. And I was like, just bring whatever you want.

It doesn't matter. It's an audio and video, if you want to watch the video podcast, but the car is

not in it. It was cool to see, though. Yeah. Shame about the wheel arch. A bit annoying.

So, okay. And this process, how did you go about starting? How did the project start?

What was the process? And I don't know. We're quite far down now. I don't know how long we've

got to go, but we're quite far down. Yeah. So, obviously, we have now launched. That car

is a prototype phase still. There's a lot of work to do to get it to how it needs to be. I've shot

so many cars that are finished. I know how it needs to be. But also, it is quite normal to be at this

phase when you launch. Yeah. We haven't announced any of the technical details. We have someone

else helping us along the way, who's a mutual friend, who's very kindly, financially making it

possible, which makes a big difference. But we haven't open ordered orders. And we haven't

given the technical spec in detail yet, because I want to have put a serious number of miles on the

car before I tell people, this is amazing. It needs to be as good as I would want it to be

if I was spending my own money on it. Yeah. Which I kind of am. So, yeah, it's the next stages of

the really, really hard bit. The actual design elements and getting it to launch. We actually

did quite quickly. And we did it. What was the sort of timeline on that? We bought the car in

December last year. And when did we do launch? April, May. So it was very, very quick. And

that's with bespoke suspension. And before you bought the car, had you mapped out all that stuff?

Yeah, I'd done CAD, so I had an idea of the design. I kind of like the Elise S1, the way it's a beach

buggy type look as well. But I also knew you're only as good as your worst component. And it needed

some interesting stuff design wise. Because to me, design and kind of the way it integrates

is how people feel like they're getting value for money before they even sit in the car.

Yeah, if you look at it and you don't go, I love it, well, you ain't gonna mind it.

Yeah. It's that first impressions massive. And I think it went down really well at the launch,

which is a really nice sign. It was a lot of work to get. I basically didn't sleep since January.

Is that calming a little bit? No. I wish.

I think it will. Well, yeah, it's part of the process, isn't it? And I'm also obviously still

a photographer, which is probably key to say to people because I do still need to earn a living.

Until we take an order, the company is just costing me money.

Yeah. And what do you think in terms of, so you put the car together, you've got it looking

quite nice to a point. This is where you take some photos. How did you pick how deep to go in

terms of all the elements? I've spoken to loads of people that have made various builds of varying

types. And you can, I'm not going to say pick a number, but you can pick a number of how much

you want to spend on a car. And I'm aware that it's very easy to spend a lot of money,

just literally just working through all of the bits and however you go about it,

whether it's custom looms and blah, blah, blah, blah, aircon and yada, yada, yada.

How have you sort of declared a price range for the car?

We haven't announced it yet. I've got it in my mind of where more the build cost needs to be

because it is a business at the end of the day, which is very challenging. To me,

it's so important that people get as much as possible for their money. And actually,

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per month when network is busy. See terms. And a lot of people do. You end up not building

things properly and you're cutting corners in places. So what sort of end of the resto like

resto mod? We can call this a regular mod. Yeah, spectrum. The price point of

resto mods is getting a bit silly, if we're honest. Yeah, you can spend what two million quid now?

Yeah. And to be fair, when you spend two million quid, you get something that has full development

to a level that a manufacturer would do, like full emissions testing and safety testing and

everything. Yeah, your ABS has gone back to Bosch to be done for your car. Yeah, it's all

bespoke. Every single component and bolt. I can't do that. It's still a lot of sleaze underneath

and I'm aware of that. I don't want to say the actual price, but it's going to be on the lower

end of the scale. Because I'm fully aware that usage case for the car is quite low. It's not

the most practical. Yeah. But I'd also like to think that if it's alongside another car in your

garage, you're going to take it because it will put the biggest smile on your face. Yeah. And

it was quite interesting thinking about other cars. And I think the only thing that's really that

close is a Nomad. And I had that thought process a while ago of trying to understand the Nomad.

And why do people not keep them? That's a good question. Because no one keeps them that long,

but I know. And to me, what I concluded is your touch points and the emotion that you get, and I

know it sounds wishy washy to say emotion of touch points, but things like the quality, it's plastic

seats and like just metal tubes. They can only be so bespoke. And yes, it's got the radio control

car thing. And I'm not saying I don't like the Nomad because I think it's absolutely awesome.

It's pretty cool. But they're hard to get in and out of. This is true. They don't have a proper

roof. And if you put the roof on, they just leak, which hopefully my car won't as much.

And like trying to create just that bit more usability, like we can put a hard top on the car

if we want to. And creating a bespoke spec to every single person that buys one has that

special story. And to me, it's just got that bit extra. And then it's also, it's not just a car

you can just go and buy easily because we are building them to order and we're not going to

build that many. Yeah. In an ideal world, you'd get to a single level and you sell 500 or whatever,

but that's still not very many cars. To me, I wouldn't ever want to get to that level.

It's quite, I see the whole market as a whole and I don't want to go too much into

analyzing the whole markets. But it's really important the number of vehicles people sell

and how accessible it is to buy for the long term. Because if the car is just going to poop

money, no one's going to buy it. Like why would you buy a car that's just going to lose loads

of money? It's not enjoyable. It's really not enjoyable. And I think even if you see yourself

owning a car for whatever, if you think you're going to take an absolute bath on it, it will

probably put you off. Or you might steer you towards something else. And to me, that then led

on to my understanding of marketing and brand, etc. Made me realize the ones that lose the most

money in the industry are the ones that people don't understand. So it's just, there's a difference

to me between a modified car and a Resto mod. And actually a lot of it is external people

understanding what it is. So take a Singer Classic or a Tuttle 911 K. People know what it is.

It could just be seen as a modified 911, which potentially used to be a little bit.

Yeah. I mean, a Resto mod is a modified car.

But because they have branded it in the right way, people understand it and that's a key part

in when you then come to sell it if you ever want to. It retains its value better and the

market opens up. Yeah, I've found that the one, as you know, I talked to lots of these people

and there was one guy. Occasionally, I agree and sort of set up and sign up to do.

I'm not going to list a manufacturer or whatever, but like a Resto mod. And

in the back of my mind, I'm like, I don't know anything about this. I'm not sure anything about

the person. It's partly why I think the podcasts, at least for me, are really interesting with those

sorts of people because you get an understanding of the person and why they're doing it.

And often I'm surprised. I'm like, oh, right. No, you are like mad into this.

Yeah. But people don't understand the marketing and therefore the general public don't understand

that story. Yes. And it's really hard to tell your story to people.

And lining up your story. Yes. Telling your story yourself is quite challenging.

And then does your product fit with that story? Yeah. Or like you might have three products.

One of them absolutely is like you down to a T, but they've gone,

oh, I think this one will sell better. So we're going to do that. And you're like,

ah, yeah, but the link. Yeah. There's some companies that chase money. And I think it's

such a passion driven industry that they're massively irrational person. Yes. Aren't they?

They make no sense. Yeah. But all of the sense. Yeah. And also some people we know have bought

these cars and like doubled their money because they've been very shrewd with.

I know. You look at some of those and I'm sure we know a lot of the same people.

And you see a lot of people have like I would say like serial restamod

buyers and have bought the one that's considered to be I'd say like hot at the time or at least like

the top of the list, got on early, had one for two years, sold it, made some money,

used that money, bought the next rest. Like, you know, they're just on this rolling restamod train.

Yeah. I mean, the way I see it, I enjoy cars for that experience. Like I'm a person that drives

the car loads. I obviously haven't had my exige for value. I've lost a lot of money.

I've spent a lot of money. But I have really enjoyed the process, which is why my decision

to do that was. Yeah. And I think that's important as well is like the way I say,

even if the car loses lots of money, you should be left with a car that you really love. So it

doesn't matter. Yes. Yes. At the end of the day, if you are losing lots of money, at least you've

enjoyed the process. Yeah. And I think your GT3 RS, for example, if that was worth nothing,

you wouldn't care. No, and there's a small part of me that would prefer it.

That would prefer it a little bit. Luckily, I'm with that one where I bought it at a value.

And in my head, I try and just say it's worth that value. Yeah. I'm like, that's what I paid for it.

So like, until you sell it, it ain't worth anything other than that. And the reality is,

you've got to service it and whatever and blah, blah, blah, blah. So like,

probably not making any money. One that I found interesting recently is I often try to like

choose a car based on my head. And I try and work out what's the best car based on my head,

like kind of just process rather than like heart. Okay. And what I've found

is you don't keep those cars that long. No. Is that why you've got through

so many cars over the last few years? The last four years have been a bit of a cycle,

bit of life changes and whatnot, but 100% going, I should have a blah, blah,

blah, because I think that will be the best car for me. And you have it and you're like, it's okay.

But, and I think this is maybe an area with your exige, where you say it's cost you a

lot of money and I'm sure it has the process, but you've had that car for ages and you've

not sold it and you've not bought something else and you've not sold it. So you've had zero

transaction costs on any stuff. I'm not going to say I've done better than that would have been,

but probably would have been in a nice McLaren on four seats at this stage if I

had got rid of it quite a lot earlier. But I also, I go to shoots in the exige to shoot

some very special cars and people will be more interested in the exige than these special

cars that should be way more special. And that's fun. And you want to shoot your car?

Yeah. You're like, I want to take pictures of my car.

It's a test subject for me, which is really interesting. And in fact, going back to get

lost, the launch shoot was really interesting because it felt like a whole new experience for me.

Yeah. So to explain it, we decided, well, I decided to take it up to the Scottish Highlands

and we were having some particularly good weather. So I really pushed to get the car done in time

so that we could take it up in the good weather and shoot it at the perfect bit of light in the

most amazing locations and got to the location at the perfect time. And what people don't see

is that month of hard work and sleepless nights before. And normally I just turn up.

Yeah. And it gave me such an appreciation for what my clients normally go through before a shoot.

And also just understanding the logistics, the costs and the challenges involved from the other

side. It was a really valuable experience. That is really interesting because I don't think any

other photographer has probably ever been through that in that way. No. Because why would you?

Why would you? Exactly. You're like, yeah, I'm here at four in the morning. I got up at whatever,

too. I mean, I was polishing the car at like midnight the night before the shoot. And just

trying to bring it all together was amazing. But also that feeling of satisfaction when we got the

shots in the perfect light. Yeah. And slightly amusingly, everyone thought they were AI because

they were quite so good. But of course, as a photographer with my launch shots for my new

brand, I'm going to do the best job I possibly can with everything available to me. And that was

what we got. Yeah. And they're cool. That's cool photos. Yeah, that's that is I've not really

thought about that. But I've definitely you hear, I hear the people that I've met to do this shoot.

And they will say, oh, we've like something happened this week, and we had to do blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then so and so was doing XYZ up until X hours or whatever.

And you're like, here's a car and you're just like, yeah, car cool, put it there. Let's do it.

I've done hypercar launches before in like studios, like the couple of days before Geneva,

back in the day, where they literally were putting the seats in the trailer on the way to the shoot.

And it's like, actually, that's ridiculous. That is insane, isn't it? Yeah, especially for

companies of that size. Yeah. Like I'm obviously a very small scale at the moment. And I'm

deliberately trying to keep it that way. But when you have resources, and it's still that way,

it's quite interesting. How has that been like with the like preparing for that launch shoot?

How far out did you pick the date, time, stuff like that? And then were you like, oh,

we've got six weeks till then? I was putting aggressive deadlines on it the whole time.

But I didn't put it seriously until probably a week and a half before when I knew the weather

would still be good. Yeah. Like in reality, it wouldn't have made a difference if we launched

a week later. But the weather was so good. It was just an opportunity not to be missed.

Yeah, yeah. And like there are things we could have improved on the car still,

but no one else will see them. No, and what I like, and this obviously was a conscious decision,

is you launched with real photos on a real car. Yeah. A car that exists in a real location,

shot. Yeah. In person. Yes. Lots of people don't do that. Yeah. What? I am a photographer,

so it's probably a fairly easy answer to that one. So.

But even, you know, you could have said six months ago when you were there.

I had CAD renders, which are probably to the level that a lot of other people launch with.

Yeah. But also, why would I do that? Like we're building the car anyway,

and you need to go through that process. Like even if you've got the best CAD in the world,

you need to see a physical car because you go, oh, that doesn't quite work in real life.

Let's change that. Yeah. And there are still loads of things we're going to change

going forward, just to tweak and improve like the wheel arch, surfacing and stuff like that.

So. And with mechanical changes and stuff like that,

is that, I know you've not released what it's going to be, but how much of that in terms of

where everything from a build point of view is sort of, you know, where everything's going to be,

where everything's going to root, all that sort of stuff.

So in terms of suspension, we've got dampers on it that are the correct length and like we've got

our own wishbones and uprights and to bespoke dimensions. So on the rear end, we went 40

mill wider on the wishbones because I don't want to use wheel spacers and I want to have,

basically, it was a visual led thing that had benefit to travel and everything really,

because if you look at a standard S1 Elise, the rear wheels are really far in.

And we kind of just had to make a bit of a, let's put the wheel here and let's go out by this amount.

And honestly, it is bang on. Nice.

Just even just purely visual, the wheels look natural where they are and that's really important.

That is no small thing as well. So many cars don't do that.

Yeah. And then the way that we designed the arches to actually complement that and give the

illusion of ground clearance and everything like that, it's all tied together and thought about.

So we are quite a long way in. We've done a lot of the really hard stuff. Like,

obviously, if you do wishbones, you have to do drive shafts and stuff like that and toe links,

etc. And how did you go about designing all that stuff? Because I guess you can go,

we're going to make it wider, but you go to the right people that understand that.

Yeah. Like, it was quite important to me to retain the feeling of a lotus and enhance it.

So a lot of the geometry from a lotus is actually quite good in a lot of ways.

And they kind of reward you for setting them up higher.

Okay. But it's all about angle of ball joints and articulation and everything like that.

So that's all had a lot of consideration. And we're now working through the strengthening stages.

So it's an extruded aluminium chassis. And we don't want to ever have to replace a chassis.

So we need to strengthen that as the main priority, which we are doing, and consider the failure

points. So you want a bent wishbone, you don't want a ball joint pulling out or anything

catastrophic. Yeah. But it's also important. People need to understand the usage case. It's not a

Bahar vehicle. You need to have just a little bit of respect because we are still using the

original chassis. Okay. So what would you say is the usage case for this car?

I think it is a car that you can take down a bumpy road and not even think about it.

It's a car that you can have fun on every single journey. And if the road runs out and you want

to take it and do some stupid stuff on some slight like some off road, it will be capable

off road. And I've taken it a bit off road already and it kind of felt really alien to me

how capable it was. Yeah. Just in terms of

What sort of things will you do like gravel or like actual lumpy bumpy?

Quite lumpy bumpy. But also quite significant gradient changes. Okay. So up onto a bank

and a few bits like that. Yeah. I was quite surprised just how easily it did it,

which is quite reassuring. But we will do a lot of testing. Yeah. And we will probably

find the failure points. That's sort of the whole point of testing, right? Yeah. Just

hopefully not upside down. Well, it shouldn't be. It's pretty stable. And it's pretty well

controlled. And a lot of that is in having good dampers that are set up in the right way.

And there's a good chance we'll go active on the dampers so that we actually can dial it in

for different scenarios. Oh, and yeah, and have all the sensors so that you go a bit faster,

it reacts a bit differently. Yeah. But also just have it so that it's in presets so that it's not

overly complicated for people. And it's actually, yes, you can still change it in a more complicated

way if you wanted to. But these are the ones we think are spot on for this vehicle in this way,

because I think a lot of people do overcomplicate it. Yeah. And people do love

this like a classic Lotus thing, isn't it? Let them adjust it and they'll adjust it wrong. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm not saying I'm the ultimate expert in that, but we will have

some very good drivers who are friends to test it and feedback and we'll get rubbish drivers as

well to test it and feedback and see what they think. That's the point, because it's all very

well having, I went out in something, I can't remember what it was, and the guy in the car with me

is like, he's not a pro, but he's a rally driver, like pretty good rally driver. And the way he

drove the car was completely different to how I drove the car. And actually what happened is there

was some weird like ignition issues. Yeah. Just because I was just using the pedals differently

to how he uses the pedals. And he was like, oh, that was actually quite interesting. Like we need

to have a look at that because no one else drove it so badly. So I found it really interesting

when I actually went to Lotus quite a few years ago, and one of their test drivers,

he's a very good driver, took me out. But his driving was so good that and he was technically

one of the most confident drivers you could ever meet, perfectly trail breaking into the corner.

But I don't want to have to trail break into a corner in the same way he does.

So like my exige, for example, I have a lot more front end grip and turning because I like to be

chucking my car around. And I want it to be fun. I don't need that safety net that they have to

dial in. And I don't want to have to drive it the same way as that test driver in order to enjoy

the car. Yeah, I know what you mean. My RS is set up a little bit stiffer at the rear

on the anti-robots than standard. And it's basically that. It's like, I'd rather it turned in than not.

Yeah, I drove a RS with a JZM Mantai type setup on it and it just transformed it.

I imagine that's pretty great. This is the car that it should have been.

Yeah. Good morning, Crust. It's a great day to be a bread brother.

Mornings are not my jam or jelly. Oh, come on. Stop loafing around. I just woke up feeling hollow

inside. Just grab one of the new morning uncrustable sandwiches like bright-eyed berry or up an apple

filled with 12 grams of protein and tons of deliciousness. Crust, what are you eating?

It's just granola, not even yogurt. No crust, no fuss. Uncrust your mornings.

But I probably should go and get someone to have a little look at the old suspension,

but that's quite fun anyway. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you're down deep in it.

You're using, and how are you basing it? Using a lot of, if you've got,

this is the person that's going to do the paint. This is the person that's going to do work on

suspension, whatever, and you're sort of managing the whole thing. Yeah. So we're going between

different places to set up a facility. It will mean the company probably never makes money. And I

question how a lot of the companies in the industry ever make a penny. I suspect a lot of them probably

don't. And getting that balance and doing things at the right time is very, very important. So we

are considering all our options at the moment, basically, but getting experts in each area

to help us and do things. And we're trying to partner up with all the right companies.

And it's just finding all the most talented people in the industry that love what we're doing,

because it's silly. We're letting people talk about it in the right way and tell the story,

because a lot of these companies are under NDA for all their other clients. And I actually

as a photographer, I like the storytelling elements. So that's quite key. So going forward,

you'll see more and more of that. And actually showing how we do things and the processes and

why these people are amazing. That is that I always find that interesting. There's loads of,

it doesn't make good marketing in terms of like podcast guests, but I've chatted to loads of

people that are doing really cool stuff. And they're really good at it. But no one's heard of them,

because they're not allowed to say, we actually did this car.

Yeah. And that's why you see things like RML and actually RIMAC is quite a good example as well,

where they really just wanted to show the world what they could do. So it's quite interesting.

But there's a lot of smaller companies, even like the leather supplier, UK Hyde. They're amazing

and so knowledgeable. And to be able to just, I could spend a whole day there just talking

about leather and understanding it. I find it's so interesting. And like we ended up

with such an obscure leather that just feels like no other leather I've ever felt before.

Nice. Which I know is totally inappropriate for an off-road car, but it looks so good.

It feels so good. And it's just that quality level. It's a fashion leather, not a car leather.

Okay. But it's my prototype. I can just change the leather at a later date if I want.

So that restriction doesn't matter right now. Yeah. Let's make it nice.

Yeah. Let's just do the ultimate. Yeah. And you chat, you say both, you get to go and drop in,

you get to talk to these people and you get it on a whole new level now because you're like,

we want to do a project together. And I know like a little bit about a lot.

But then you talk to these people and you go, ah, there's a lot more. There's a lot in this.

There's a reason you've been doing this for 30 years. And like you do this like this and that

like that. But it's also, you say that it's been really interesting since we've launched

with my photography clients, for example, being able to say that I do get lost,

people A, see me in a totally different light. Okay. Because I've done an awful lot.

But I'm also using a lot of new manufacturing techniques, etc, etc.

And I've gone into a couple of companies since and I won't name them,

although I think they're lovely people. And seeing things on their cars that they can improve,

I'm like, we can just do this for you if you want. Oh, yeah. And like things like buttons.

There's a lot of new ways to do things. It doesn't have to be injection molded.

There's a lot of manufacturing techniques that can be suitable to the volumes of vehicles being

made. But it also allows you to customize more, etc. So there's a lot of things and design wise

as well, because obviously that's quite important when you're photographing things. But it's just

really interesting because a lot of these companies have been doing it 30 plus years.

And it's not changed that much. And they're amazing at those old school techniques,

which I'm not like fabrication. It blows my mind that people can just connect metal together.

But I can then print something on a 3d printer that's a functional part and amazing. And like

3d printing has come a very long way. And a lot of people don't understand it very much

and think it's not production worthy when it can be if it's done right.

Ah, yeah. Some of the parts I've seen now, I think, which one was quite interesting,

BAC. BAC do their mirror support. The mirror. Yeah.

It's like painted, printed. That just looks great. Yeah. And it's a lot more cost effective.

It's print on demand. So you don't have to outlay lots of money. You don't have to do soft

doors with CNC, etc. etc. So yeah, it's been a very interesting process where I've learned

an awful lot. But also I'm using that to help other people. Yeah. Because I want my clients to

do well. Yeah. And I imagine that must be tricky. If you're, if you've been making stuff for a long

time, now lots of these companies, they're always iterating and they're doing stuff. But sometimes

there's like, you know, we've worked out this is the best way. We're just going to keep doing it

like that forever. Coming in a starting afresh. Yes, you have to look, you then have to learn

how to do, how to get it all to work and make it a successful business and blah, blah, blah,

all that stuff. But then as you say, if you sort of coming at it from a point of, well,

I'm learning how to do this now. What's the best way available now? And also,

maybe being a bit younger or whatever, blah, blah, blah. You're like,

what might be possible in five years time? And let's tend towards that.

Yeah. And also speaking to the right people within my network, I'm incredibly lucky that

I've had some really, really clever and interesting people support me in terms of strategy, in terms

of manufacturing processes, which just wouldn't be available to you if you were an established company.

Yeah. So, and actually, I said earlier, we'll talk about photography in the future.

But I'm trying to increase my skill set and knowledge in various different areas, kind of

just understanding. And the ability to bring the right people together is a really key thing,

which a lot of companies struggle with. And it's something that's really important to me

to give myself opportunities going forward. Yeah. Yeah. So where do you see,

what do you see? Where do you see your photography going forward? What would you like to be doing

in the future? So I do a whole host of photography at the moment from small jobs all the way up to

ad campaigns for new car launches and that kind of thing. And I do it all over the world.

Like, I'm living the dream that I set out to do 15 years ago, and more, to be honest.

But I have seen a noticeable change in the industry over time, for good and for bad.

Social media has massively changed the way that we shoot things, the priority of the assets,

from marketing to social to website to press. Yeah. And I think AI

ignore it at your peril. Yeah, it is coming along and it's changing how things work.

I don't entirely know all the answers at the moment, which I don't think anyone does. No. But

one of the reasons I'm looking at all the different options is so that I don't suddenly end up in a

situation where AI just switches on and can do exactly what I do. Yeah. Because I'm fairly confident

that they have learned off a select subset of photographers in the car industry without permission.

Yes. Or who knows what permission you give on social media. But there is nothing we can do about

it. Yeah. So as far as I'm concerned, kind of need to create skills in various areas. And I think

there will always be people willing to spend money for an experience.

Definitely. Which is where get lost has so much potential.

Yeah. Yeah. Creating that unique experience that they can't get in any other way.

Yeah. Because I think with the do a little bit of photography and then we'll come back

with everything changing and the ability to like

generate backgrounds and all this sort of stuff. It's all very well the technology

existing and it's going to get better and better and better. But you still need a sort of

director type person. They can be a photographer. They can be a video whatever to go.

Yeah. But it needs to be like this. I want you to do all the background stuff. I want you to do all the

legwork because actually you're absolutely spot on and it's really interesting because

generative AI as Photoshop call it. It isn't quite good enough unless you know exactly

how a photo should look. And some clients now I do some retouching work as well as just photography.

They will want to put a backlit car with the light or front lit car with a backlit

background. And it is possible with a huge amount of work. But it's you require that

technical understanding. So in fact I'm working on something right now where I'm trying to do

exactly that. Yeah. And I'm having to change every reflection in the car. I'm having to

change the way that the grass is lit underneath it. It's a massive task but the AI tools help.

But if the art director tried to do that he'd struggle. Yeah. Which is why I'm doing it.

Yeah. So yeah. It's getting better. And I think as I said before we started recording

and there will always be a need for pictures that show the condition of things and the real

reality. Yes. And they also you can learn a lot from a picture very quickly. Well as a video

takes a while to tell that story. Yes. So for things like launching a car

launching pictures is much like obviously they both have a usage case but pictures are useful.

People put pictures on their wall. You can have pictures as a background. You can have a video

but like no one would do that. Yeah. And there's billboards on motorways and stuff like that more

in America. Highways. Yeah. If you've got half a second to look at something you can't watch a video.

Yeah. So there is a usage case. I think AI is going to develop. I still love photography.

Yeah. Like the process and I've always been quite a technical photographer and I enjoy

planning and then creating something that's technically difficult and that's where I try

to push myself now is on the technical side. Yeah. Because I think that's where I can separate.

What are the sort of things that in your brain you're like I'm going to try this and it's going

to be challenge. So there's technical from different elements. There's in terms of

photography lighting and then also production. Right. And being really good and understanding

production so that you can integrate into other productions like film crews etc. Okay. That's

a whole new skill set in itself which is incredibly valuable to people. Right. So

when I go on a big set like 100 plus crew on the film side. Yeah. I need to fully understand

everything they're doing at every single point to understand. Okay. They're going to do a lens

change at five past two. So therefore that's my window to have four minutes. And that's a real

like understanding that. Yeah. And getting your head around it all. Not many people can do that.

Well and then understanding and planning for those four minutes for example. Yeah. What

you're going to do in that time. Yeah. How can I shoot a whole social campaign in four minutes?

Well I have done. I would rather not. And once you've done it once they want you to do it again

is the problem. Yeah. They were like you did it. Yeah. Yeah. But there's a lot you can do.

Like it's data at the end of the day and you need to capture all the elements needed to get

your final result. Yeah. And that's kind of the understanding of that. And when I then do night

photography or studio photography integrating all that together to be able to create whatever's

needed or whatever I fancy or whatever the art director fancies. Yeah. I've seen

there's a brand that you work with Zembo. Yep. We both know them. I remember you did the launch.

You've done all I think all their photos really. And that's that to me is like it's a blend of

studio plus you've inserted backgrounds and stuff like that. The problem with studio photography is

people don't resonate with it massively. No. And I wanted it's hard to do storytelling with a studio

shot for example. Like how do you there is no story. Well exactly. So the Zembo is called the Aurora.

So with the launch photography I wanted to bring a bit more into it.

So right from the beginning before the cars were even a thing we were having chats about

how we would do it and actually fair play to Zembo because not many people plan that far

in advance. Yeah. And they gave me a lot of creative freedom on it and I built up an environment

and photographically. So using like I shot the floor which was actually a paving slab in my garden

because I just needed the texture and I needed the toning. So I used like green LED light to

light up the floor. Right. And I kind of I drew inspiration from Pulpit Rock. I think it's called

in Norway. Okay. And just what would it look like if this Zembo Aurora was on Pulpit Rock.

We couldn't take it anywhere but a studio because of the secrecy of the car. Yeah. I would have loved

to have taken it to the mountains in real life. But this was the next best option and

that was an example of I have the technical ability to do it. Yeah. And I do look back

at the pictures and go I could probably do this this this better but that's a good sign.

And then that's yeah. That's because you're pushing it and time deadlines etc. Yeah. But we

managed to create something that just looked a bit more interesting to me and some people

won't like it but hopefully they're distracted by the car. No. I thought I remember thinking

those are cool. Like launch photos is always a tricky one. Like some brands I mean some brands

absolutely. But it's there for a reason whether it's like they don't want to take the car to a

place. Fair. I'm going to imagine that's a huge part of it. Yeah. And then it's like well how

can we make it look like it's in a place moving and doing all the stuff. Yeah. With a car that

probably doesn't work. Yeah. Might not have a seat in yet. Yeah. Just had them fitted.

Just had them fitted. Yeah. Interestingly just on the subject of launch photography

one of the things I find so interesting is quite often you're the first person outside of the

company to see that car. Yeah. And I always reference it the Dottemarzo P72. So I shot the

launch photography for that. Yeah. And to this day it's still one of my favorite cars visually

and I'm sure they just announced production actually spec etc. And I'm sure it will be

just as good in production spec. Yeah. But getting to see that car for the first time

in a studio and I got to pick which angles people see for the first time. Yeah. That's cool. It's

a really fun interesting but also stressful process and that car entirely changes character

as you move around it and change lens and focal length and distance. It goes from

a really classical silhouette with some very organic lines to quite an aggressive modern

looking car. Yeah. And choosing how people understand that car for the first time when

you launch it is quite a process. Yeah. And imagine is that a conversation you have with

people a lot of like well I guess you don't know necessarily until you're in the room with it.

You're like ah we don't want to shoot this close and super wide like generally you probably

don't want to do that anyway. But so there were a lot of conversations leading up to it

but I hadn't seen the car. Yeah. So I was chatting and so Joe Wong is the designer who I think

personally I think is one of the best designers out there and I've had a lot of chats with him

about get lost in the lead up and he's advised a little bit which is kind. But having that

relationship and that process means that when you do get to the studio you know how the brand

wants people to see the car. So you know what you're aiming for but you've still got to just

nail it because a couple of inches left or right and the whole character changes.

It changes a lot. Yeah. And then do you sometimes get it where you're and you have

ways of dealing with this. I sometimes in my head I'm like that's right and then you shoot it and

then you're just like accidentally or whatever you shoot a little bit around just because

and then you get to the edit and you're like oh no that's better and also I wish I'd gone

five centimeters higher or something. So the mistake I often make which I wish I would learn

from and still don't is I will often go for the hero best shot first when you should do it last

because everything you've learned throughout the day of how to light that vehicle you can use to

light it better as opposed to working it out on that because every car is different how you light

it. There are similarities between things but you have to really work it out as you go every

single time. Yeah. That is interesting. I had not thought about you being the first person to see

something because if you've never seen it before and you get to sit in the flesh that is just such

a different experience to having seen photos and videos and blah blah blah blah blah because you

always have you already have an opinion. Yeah and in fact for Get Lost it was quite interesting

because I had seen the car in the workshop so much but then when you sit when you stand back

from it and you've got mountains around you and you've got amazing light having to make those

decisions you're like I didn't expect that to be the angle for this car. Yeah yeah because I guess

you're working on the car you're seeing it you're seeing bits come together probably quite close

up maybe around and then you're like no it's finished what's it like in an environment. Yeah

it's quite interesting to try and understand it and there's always going to be bits that aren't as

good so you're going to try and avoid those like every single car has worse angles obviously

and it's my job to make sure. Do you have a favorite part of it or a favorite

yeah aspect? There's a few the roof scoop is one of my favorites I love the shape of it so

the leading edge at the front where the air intake is effectively is a mirror image of the lower

grill at the front of the car nice which you probably wouldn't notice but it makes it feel

a lot more natural and obviously it's a massive thing on the top of the car so it also visually

raises the car yeah and when I've taken it off since it looks so empty without it so that's

got to stay yeah the headlights so it's important to me that things are functional that's one thing

I've really learned from my exige and things like headlights you want good headlights yeah you

want to be able to see so I've got bi-led projectors which I then designed everything for them to make

them fit okay so they're from a very good brand that everyone will know and then I had I totally

redesigned how they mount how like the enclosure for the actual projector etc and took a bit of

inspiration from the mirror with little eyelashes just subtly but to have a rectangular shape for

the projector when everything else on the car is a curve is quite a nice kind of jarring effect

yeah but it also visually widens the car again okay so that then the arches

were so hard to get right because it's about enhancing the shape making it look wider but

not looking silly so the front arch it integrates into the top of the shoulder of the car and then

the rear one is more jarring to make it visually look wider so it comes down and then out right so

there's a lot of consideration that's gone into those and that when you were mocking it up

did you did you sort of card that out beforehand yeah so I 3d scanned it all and then did an awful

lot of test prints effectively and throwing them on and okay yeah so how does this land on it yeah

and just see it and it doesn't give you a full idea but it yeah because you always see those

the videos of designers and designers always talk about it of getting their you know their clay

models out and then they're like they run their hand along it and they're like oh you know that

little bit I wish I could do that I would genuinely really enjoy that process but it's not efficient

financially in time it's very expensive yeah and you need people skilled in that as well so

like in reality the look the more of these steps I can make more efficient let's say

the more this car becomes viable as a business yeah which is quite important and yeah the

whatever the price comes out at as long as you can build it make some money the lower that number

ideally the more people might want to buy it yeah I think I don't know whether that necessarily

100% tracks but yeah I think what's more important actually is if you save money in some areas

it means you can spend it in other areas to improve the quality yeah and or features or

whatever yeah sort of perceived overall quality of the yeah and I think at the end of the day

you are only as good as the worst thing on the car yeah so the more you can do to make sure that

worst thing is still really good the better yeah yeah everyone knows you go in certain cars and

you're like everything's bespoke or whatever apart from the plastic blah blah blah blah blah and

you're like oh come on just remove that yeah I feel like that is a real photographers way of

looking at stuff as well yeah and I'm also designing understanding how to show it to people

visually yeah and kind of perspectives like the way you look at an interior for example

what's your viewpoint on it because a lot of people would just think of it in certain like

kind of look at the whole thing as a whole yeah I'm thinking of it okay well you're looking at it

from the steering wheel you're looking at from the passenger side you're then looking at with

the roof off you're looking at it through the windscreen like it's an open top so I'm trying to

think how it all flows nicely and how you ultimately it's a really small interior so I'm trying to

maximize the features so that it's a usable and functional as possible yeah but also visually

interesting and different because I don't want it to just look like an at least s1 interior

they're really boring yeah there's not much going on yeah and in terms of materials are you doing

like carbon body or anything like that or at the moment we are aiming to keep with the fiberglass

body and because if I have to go and make molds the costs just skyrocket yeah and you never know

for the future and it's been pretty popular so far so we are looking at options but we will use

carbon in certain areas I don't necessarily want to do huge amounts of visual carbon but it does

save on weight it's strong it also has flexibility so things like wheel arches it's an obvious choice

potentially with kevlar yeah and so and things like under trays we're looking at all the different

options we've we've got some stuff in the car but there's always room for improvement so

and what sort of weight saving is a you know would be like a carbon

body from rear clamp type joey I can't say on a lease s1 but I can lift a clamp on my own

on the exige I know that a front clam I think is 12 kilos so if you half it you've only saved

six kilos now if you put a lightweight battery in a car you've saved 16 17 kilos and so there's a lot

of cost versus benefit analysis yeah and if you've got something that's already really light and

designed to be light yeah and obviously those savings are harder but also strength is quite

important and how the material reacts under certain circumstances so carbon will quite often flex

well as fiberglass will crack as we saw this morning yeah yeah that was good a bit of respray

needed yeah that's not sixth time not ideal time for a front lift on the exige I think

so when do you think what's the next sort of milestone on that on that project

so what we're working towards at the moment is having the drivetrain in a way that the car can

be driven in anger and tested and enjoyed it will not look it'll be a prototype it will have prototype

written all over the car yeah because there is no point respraying the car and making it perfect

until we know it drives right and we know it's not going to have issues yeah so that's the

next stage don't know exactly when we will get to that stage and currently the engines and pieces

etc and I haven't announced tech specs but we're also looking at various different engine options

so we may put a different engine into the second car oh different engine is in maybe even different

number of cylinders or different no comment v12 coming to you yeah I think we might struggle for

space on that one yeah unlikely but we're looking at all the options there's a lot of proven solutions

out there which are very good yeah but obviously it's a 25 year old car so there's a load of

fundamental stuff that needs sorting as well right it is actually a restoration as well yeah

and is that quite what are they generally like if right so we go and find the donor cars is quite

important because I saw a lot of donor cars that are bad right and what actually matters is the

chassis so it's extruded aluminium you don't want corrosion and you don't want bends or any issues

like that and I reckon the first five cars I looked at had corrosion or bends yeah so I walked

so it's really important to get a good one and it's important to protect it the engine it depends

what we end up doing for final production but if it goes in the bin then it's it doesn't matter when

you buy a donor car yeah and we replace everything like cooling etc because it needs to be good

and to get a good chassis does that a hundred percent align with

probably what actually looks like a good car to start with or do you sometimes get a

sneakily good chassis on something that looks a bit rubbish we got a sneakily good chassis

perfect chassis on the donor car the red one and the paint is awful but it doesn't really matter

at this stage in fact it just meant we paid less for the donor car but it's a 22,000 mile car

just someone clearly stored it outside at some stage and it ruins the paint

so anyone else buying it would go oh it needs a respray yeah yeah I look at it and go oh sweet

it needs a respray needs a respray we're gonna do that anyway yeah so and then our second car

which will be the Carabas car um is a 30,000 mile car but it's so good condition the person

never drove it in the rain oh nice um and even the roof was kept in cling film oh really it's

so mint wow yeah and that car and that car will be is that going to be production one that will be

first production spec at some point in time yeah we're not we're not even gonna start on it properly

until I'm 100% sure and everything else that makes sense yeah so nice yeah it's an exciting process

yeah as I was gonna ask you is that like what else is um on your mind in the sort of car world but I

kind of imagine that this is taking up an awful lot of headspace and time it is I'm still

within the industry quite strongly obviously um I've actually been doing a load of photography

for Praga recently of that behemoth um and I think that is a really underrated car they just set the

Dunsfold well they were within two tenths of the Valkyrie round Dunsfold top gear test track

um which is incredibly impressive for a car less than half the price of a Valkyrie yeah

and a lot more usable and actually most people have seen their demo car the test car which is

now the red one I shot was it blue it was at the beginning yes then it was silver and orange

um but I shot an actual production car the quality is really impressive is it I've not

I've not seen one in there it's worth a look at the production they'll be at Festival of Speed which

is exciting um I'm so impressed like a little company from Prague are really competing and

yes people will look at it and go okay so it's got a GTR engine from Lichfield but actually

that's also a good thing it's not a bad thing it makes it really serviceable and you can drive that

car they're running 700 horsepower which for hypercar numbers is quite low but you know it's

reliable like that yeah and you also know if if you I presume there's space but if you wanted to

it could be 2000 horsepower yeah I don't know what they've got planned in the future but I think

everyone's mind probably goes there yeah but also if you go in one you probably go yeah

probably doesn't need this might be right it's like half a GTR in weight that that's something

that's quite interesting I can't remember what the car was oh it was the um that mx5 that they put

the Toyota v6 in Jaguar is it Jaguar Jaguar v6 I think so um I can't remember what the company's

called anyway they were saying Neil has one the difference in the rocketeer that's it the difference

in the experience of driving that engine in a car that weighs nothing it just feels like a

completely different engine I what does that GTR engine feel like in a car that weighs significantly

less yeah I wouldn't imagine you're thinking GTR very often considering your feet are above your

waist and and just the whole experience of even getting in that car yeah is special and I actually

think it's incredible value within that market what is it it's like one it's about one plus tax

okay sterling I think it's a lot of money but when you compare to as you say to other stuff

but compare it to say an sf90 xx yeah it's a much more special car a lot rarer yeah

looks looks mad yeah and I actually think it's really interesting as a prospect because it's

in that middle ground that no one else seems to be operating in and it's I think it's still a carbon

tub yeah it's it's really impressive you could eat like saying that that car's a million pounds

you if you'd told me it was two you wouldn't be surprised I'm not buying one or whatever but like

I wouldn't have been surprised yeah like I sing a dls yeah and to me that it's that

whole singer classic versus uh career a gt argument isn't it when they're the same money

it's a challenging one but how many people just buy both yeah so it is we're probably looking at it

from a weird perspective of not it is funny though it is funny how values of cars don't

100 stack with there's the new modern thing so there's always been like

599 gto's when they were new or whether it's a tdf or whatever the latest five like

v12 ferrari special thing is they're like they come out and then they're like a million quids

and you go yeah but at the time I remember I think when 599 gto's like right hand drive were like

900 or something like it's more than an f40 you're like but that's an f40 yeah it doesn't always

make sense I think from the rest of the world I now have more of an understanding as to why

the price point needs to be so high yeah because a they can be different amounts of work per donor

car yeah which you have to account for um which I think when you're dealing with metal cars more

than fiberglass cars must be quite horrific oh yeah um but just the cost to do things properly

which you have to because the market expects it yeah it's just a big number nowadays

it is it is and you go and look at like a singer production and I I didn't really realize

I went around the dls factory maybe last year and whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa what is going on here

this is a huge facility yeah with like serious processes serious stuff you know I can see how

if you only sell 100 cars yeah you've got a price in all this stuff it's challenging

but also it gives me an appreciation for actual production cars as well yes because you look at

things like the nomad yeah like that's actually really impressive you guys can build a car for that

yeah because you've got to start from scratch and it's all just about volumes isn't it um

but it's really interesting to analyze it all yeah and then there's I guess the bit you're in

is you're like you're finding that those techniques that work for that allow you to do interesting

stuff at lower volumes without doing the I've done a new switch for the 911 but we're going to make

a hundred thousand of them so yeah but it's also a million sometimes those things are available

off the shelf that won't necessarily easily integrate but they will integrate with some

creativity I think creativity is probably a really good way to put it with a lot of the

yeah it's like there's quite often a creative way to solve problems yeah that's not the sensible

way but the creative way and the guys that were helping me to build the car I think they struggled

at times with my creative way of thinking as opposed to my sensible way of thinking

they quite often said that's stupid like good that means I'm on the right track

what what has been something that you're like I come in and want to do that has there been

some things that have got knocked out because they're just the reality has been this is not the

best way to do it or not significantly more of a headache than you thought it was going to be

uh not so far because I'm running it kind of gone with the stupid ideas pretty much the whole

time let's do it it's like oh hydraulic handbrakes really hard no no no it's fine gotta have a

hydraulic handbrake well yeah and things like that as you say like sort of the overall arching

things it's got to be fun yeah so something like that I keep wishing I had one in the

each it's like if you need to turn around it's really convenient and actually I imagine an

lease with a hydraulic handbrake you can turn around anywhere yeah absolutely not big that

must be something actually being a bit lifted and fundamentally small you just have so much more

latitude for driving on a road yeah I mean we have made it quite a lot wider how much wider

it's quite bit wider isn't it wheels the outside of the wheels are 10 centimeters okay wider than

it used to be that's a bit that's quite a lot yeah I mean obviously the old wheels on the rear

were a lot further into the bodywork yeah so I don't know the exact figure but that's sort of a

it's quite a lot and what does that make its footprint similar to width wise it's quite similar

to my exige now I think okay yeah it's still quite a small car on the road yeah so yeah we've made

it wider but we've also like it's still a small car yeah for fun yeah and it'll be set up in a way

that makes it predictable and because it's a short wheelbase so it's important that when it's

beyond the limit of grip which it quite often will be because all terrain tires quite often are

beyond the limit of grip it's important that it's really predictable and it goes out and comes back

in nicely and how have you picked reddit is back for a historically hideous season it's our 100th

house this place is mayhem that is impressive and if these walls could talk do you cry a lot I do

they'd have a lot to say what in god's name is this pit don't get too close you know if you

see the show I'm scaredy-cat ugliest house in America season premiere Wednesday at eight on hg tv

have you picked the exact tire that's going to be on it yeah there's a there's alternatives as well

um that will fit which is quite important because we don't want to be left high and dry if that tire

isn't in production anymore okay yeah um and actually you can fit quite a few normal tires

like winter tires studded tires in that size um but yeah I think that's the best tire that we've

gone for and you're going for more of an off-road tire yeah it's an all terrain it's an actual

all terrain and I think it's designed for vans okay um but it's really strong it's got a nice

tread pattern it is a bit heavier than I would like um which you can't do an awful lot about

yeah um but it's lighter than the other options and I did try them and I bought them and weighed

them yeah um that was an expensive process but yeah I'm quite pleased with them and

ultimately what matters is it's fun to drive yeah is it fun yeah do they work yeah um no it

sounds it sounds like a cool slightly quite stressful journey to be on but I'm it's nice to

watch from from far to see these things right well I normally wrap these up with five questions

you've been here before so I'll give you a bit of a chopped version cool uh if you can only drive

one sports car rest your life what would it be uh it's really tricky because I've experienced so

many yeah I went in a t50 for the first time at the weekend oh I bet that's pretty good yeah that

engine and the noise and everything like the packaging yeah the footprint yeah it's just

amazing um so I would take a t50 and put a new body on it nice make it look good the way I would

like it to look without saying too much more that will make them hate me um because I think it is

the most special car um but it it is an engineering first car and throughout the industry there are

cars that are engineering led there are cars that are design led yeah um that's very much an

engineering led if ever there was an example yeah um but it's kind that's what makes it so special

when we were talking earlier and I said you know you've got to love the looks of something before

you even consider buying it the t50 popped up into the back of my head because I don't love the looks

yeah I don't love the looks but I I can't get enough of the whole concept and everything else

to the point where you're like but does that sort of make up for the fact that I don't quite like

the shape and it's this weird mishmash in my brain because the rest everything else is so awesome

yeah like the packaging the luggage space the central seating position yeah just everything

so much looks good um but I do think like even just put a t50s looks to it oh yeah but then you'd

be like oh that ruins all of its road manners okay um to be fair you do have a car with a

mohusset wing on the back outside yeah and I don't well actually this morning in the rain

I could see the rooster tail coming off the back of the car like everyone else has a bit of spray

and my car has a lot of spray um so I think while you may not be able to feel aerodynamics

they're progressively doing stuff yeah they're definitely doing something yeah t50 that is

cool I saw one last week I've not been in one yet anyone wants to let me go in the t50 absolutely

I will come please I should add I was just a passenger and I was quite happy just to be a

passenger yeah I'm down I'm down what do you think is the most undervalued car at the moment

what should be worth more um there's not an awful lot at the moment tricky um I don't think there

is much undervalued I think the market is quite a tricky point at the moment um

I'm a bit blank because we go the other way could we go overvalued what is gonna tank

not a very tank but it might be a peaking I think it's you look at a sort of a world where I could

afford whatever I wanted yeah um and you go I probably still wouldn't buy that at that yeah um

and there's there's quite a lot out there um things like sf90 xx I'm sure it's an amazing car

but it doesn't really do much for me what is that new I don't know but it's a lot is it like 8900

yeah and to me they the sf90 was already too fast I know that the xx will give it a load more feel

and I know it's limited numbers so it's more special but then everyone that's had an sf90

prefers the 296 and that's an interesting one because we've got the 296 speciality now yeah

which I'd love to have go in I've not been even been in a 296 actually to sort of see what what's

going on there to me if they manage to make it so the 296 speciality just has more feel and makes it

so that it's actually more accessible and gives you more feedback at normal speeds that's the value

of it more than any extra performance which quite often like you look at speciality 458 and that's

actually what you got for your money yeah yes and like 599 gto you got more raw yeah and that's

what you want yeah and tdf actually weirdly I didn't love the tdf um I preferred the way an 812 drove

because it the tdf was quite skitty and yeah hard work and I didn't think in a particularly nice way

you don't want to feel like you might die yeah like a sketchy way yeah in a million grid car

yeah it's less enjoyable especially when it's a friend's car I like what they've done with that

line it sounds like what's the new one called 12c yeah sounds a lot more predictable and road

manners it's more like road road car for older person and I've not been in one but I have been

in the sp3 Daytona oh yeah what was that weird sentence I know I was really impressed with

how it was set up as a road car interesting it was really compliant on the road soaked up bumps

in a really good way and they've clearly made a choice at Ferrari to make cars work for the road

because that's where they get used yeah this sort of the spiel I've heard or what people

loosely seem to be saying is something like the sf90xx for example has become the this is the fastest

thing and the f80 whatever is like the fastest thing that we can do so therefore we don't have

everything else doesn't have to be the fastest thing we can do they're still quick but yeah

let's try and do that as well actually with rs and st in a way where they're quite different

feeling and different experiences have you driven those uh I've been in been in yeah and they are

quite different like the clutch and flywheel in an st oh I'd like to do that yeah and it's it's

quite stallable I say as I hear that I hear that um but people that get on board with it in fact it's

quite often the case with clutches like that and t50 actually had a clutch that is very comparable

to Carrera GT yeah it's the one that everyone will know and you basically can't touch the throttle

and I'd imagine st is probably actually the same yeah and do they have the um my gts if you it has

like anti stall or something so you just I think it's this is it the same and yeah I'd imagine

even if you're on a hill you can imagine the technology's got better now from

Carrera GT or whatever but you can just lift off and it will it's also those those engines have

enough torque like t50 engine has a lot of torque yeah um McLaren F1 has a similar clutch actually

and like very so I've driven our mutual friends car oh nice very very slowly at MTC um and it was

a case of he warned me before it's like it's like a Carrera GT clutch don't touch the throttle

until you come off it and it's fine when you know that yeah but I wouldn't want to do a round of that

yeah well like a up upper hill round a corner from a stationary start type situation yeah they do

handle it like so yeah but yeah did we lose the track of I don't know where that came from um

that was um that started off as most undervalued car went to most overvalued car um I think that

it will be very interesting to see Rastomod space in 10 years time because there's so many brands

plus one um that as we were talking about earlier like if there isn't a clear story

and a clear I think product but also understanding of the customer and that's the thing I've been

lucky with I know a lot of people who will be the customers um and I talk to them and they go

you're an idiot like cool I will change this approach and not many people seem to do that

what yeah because you you often get like I've started this project this is my vision I'm going

to make that how was that swayed versus talking to customers or potential customers um I think the

overall concept has stayed true and that's why I'm doing it I have to have a belief and believe it's

the right thing to do otherwise I wouldn't have started it um but there are elements like price

points and what people expect for that and how it's done and sort of the perceived quality

that's all shifting and okay understanding of who will potentially buy the car it's not

just going to be the mega rich yeah that would be too easy you have to make it so that it's

your audience can be as large as possible is a big thing I've learned like I do know a lot of

high net worth people but I couldn't possibly rely on them to my business as a success I have

to open it up to as many people as possible but also I want this car to be so that people can

experience it and enjoy it yeah and that's quite key and what was you said on price points and

things is there did that inform you're like we need to be more if we're more than this the car's

got to have these things or if we're less than this I think there's a certain point you cannot

build it for less than a certain amount and do it properly even with very few features um and then

things like engines and how much work goes into it and even things like how long you spend sorting

panel gaps right it's the number of hours that adds up as a cost um getting that balance right

yeah I may not be able to get it absolutely perfect yeah but I will damn try um but it's

it's getting that balance right and the spec level correct and even like the power level for what

like a lot of these customers have thousand plus horsepower cars yeah they find it very hard when

you're like well it starts with 120 horsepower but but don't worry because it's like 700 ish

kilos it feels good yeah it feels great you're not going to be able to overtake anyone but

so there's uh there's balance points and yeah I imagine pitching it in the right way and actually

I also don't want too much power because it will be less fun yes there'll be remember it's on

all terrain tires yeah so it's light yeah it's not going to have tons of grip and it's got more

weight over the rear than it did originally because of the spare wheel okay and mounting

and we're working on a boot solution under the spare wheel at the moment which is quite interesting

so it's got a bit more it's got room behind the seats um for luggage as well so

do you see do you think in terms of for some customers and this every customer is on there

or potential customer is on their own journey it's like where they are what they've been and

whatever do you think in terms of engine horsepower numbers do you think the horsepower number

means more to some people or power to weight and then you can say it's comparable to a

I don't think anyone's going to be doing comparisons apart from magazines like auto car

but just from a I don't think when you're saying how quick or not quick it's going to be I don't

think it hugely matters I think it's all about drivability okay and how it puts it down and the

enjoyment factor so it's probably torque matters more it's gearing yeah it's how good the diff is

and how well it's set up it's things like that that actually matter and most people have probably

already made their mind up having seen it visually yeah whether and then the tech specs will confirm

um that it's for them or not yeah um and we can obviously work with people but it's also

as a business it does not work to go how long the piece of string we will put in a 600 horsepower

engine because you end up spending four years on that when you could be staying true to your business

model yeah so we will do interesting things and I would like to think I'm quite a creative person

to make interesting things possible and weird and wonderful things possible

but there's a yeah and I guess how different are let's say you sell you sell 10

are you gonna in an ideal world are they all going to be look different but be sort of speckish

similar there will be a base spec and then things will be possible because I think people also need

guidance of sense and reality of what's possible yeah so and not everyone's creative

say if we give them options they quite enjoy that yeah and it's about the experience as well

which is one of the next stages most interesting car that's not the project you're working on

to you at the moment I already mentioned the Praga yeah which I think is very interesting

and I think in terms of what I'd actually like as well I think singer are doing an amazing job

I love their turbo classic the non-dlx and the quality and the tolerances that they're achieving

it's really geeky I love the shut lines on it it's so good the quality that they achieve

more of an appreciation over time for what you do stuff yeah massively and I appreciate

things for different reasons as to what I appreciated things for before yeah like it's

my understanding of design it has gone up so much yeah which again is a benefit to my photography

yeah that's one of them is why they came out with something recently the sport classic was it

yes so it's like it looks like a turbo but it's na yeah quite like a turbo though

the the turbo I'm kind of an na person he says driving a turbo tts but I'm the more I drive that

the more I realize day to day that's can be quite good but on the flip having a revi engine is more

of an experience but I do look at that this thing a turbo and go that's just it's just so cool

I haven't driven either to be able to properly compare I've been in a singer but I've not had

like a proper experience to be honest but I have driven standard 964s and to me the turbo

felt like the engine was working right and the standard 964 just felt like it wanted to

stall a lot it's quite an old car it is yeah like they're quick for what they are but

yeah the turbo engine just transformed it to me yeah but I'd imagine a four litre special

revi engine with short ratios etc it's a whole different world isn't it it's I had to go in a

very early singer and I think they've changed they have changed so much since then it was one of the

the first UK ones yeah they were 3.8 at that point and that actually felt quite similar to my GT3 RS

okay yeah I was kind of like oh this is quite it it's a bit like my GT3 RS but looks kind of older

you know and one thing that I think is amazing about those cars and you've owned a classic 911 is

you can park it anywhere yeah and no one knows what it is because it's just an old Porsche especially

around London totally it's like it's quite nice to be under the radar yeah just cruise under

and then you'll get a certain amount of nerds or whatever yeah they'll love it but that's that's

cool that's quite isn't it is a nerd's proposition and they look good uh five car garage okay unlimited

value you know I said I'd think about this yesterday you didn't actually think about it um so

obviously get lost in its final form project safari whatever that ends up being as a production

number whatever by the time that yeah yeah just because for fun factor it's hilarious um and I

kind of have to say that obviously obviously I wouldn't I wouldn't be making it if I didn't

believe in it yeah um I'm going to chuck in a daily straight away yeah um probably in the UK

McCann GTS because they just do everything well yep um and it can tow which would be nice

yep um do you do a lot of towing at the moment yeah stupid amount of towing I've got a McCann diesel

which is actually very good um but it's racking up the miles yeah and it's booked in for a

transfer box next week so living up to the reputation and just after the warranty ran out

when's the new because there's the the EV version they're still making the old

but they're still it's still the old one isn't it yeah and it's still 10 years old or

yeah they've facelifted it over time but yeah you get in and it's the same like

dash kind of oh no it's quite a day you facelifted it in 21 I think because you've got

no not fully not like a Taycan yeah um but the center is nice big screen as opposed to my little

one um but yeah you don't get an awful lot for your money so that's two yeah um

I've always been a McLaren F1 person yeah would you still have F1 uh I mean it's it's not real

money so um would you have T50 to me the F1 looks a lot better yeah um yeah they're both

they're both amazing I think also interestingly have you been an F1 I've been a passenger yeah

the induction noise on an F1 is hilarious and ridiculous yeah and I'm not taking away from

the T50 because the T50 is one of the best engines ever in a car yeah um but the induction

noise in an F1 is like you've put your head in an E46 CSL's airbox um so it probably still is F1

um Catrum 620R oh yeah because mad yeah but also it's just an experience for when you want that

experience yeah um I'm going to be driving this F1 a lot with this garage aren't I

you've got your mechanics yeah um so you've got quite a few like take for 45 minutes or Croatia

but like blast set yourself on fire I quite like that it probably to be fair I would if

money was no object I'd take an F1 on a road trip because it's got all the luggage space

that you could possibly need my current best option for a road trip is my exige so yeah

plenty more space yeah um so got one more it probably does need a GT car and it probably

needs something really skittable I mean a 911 ST is up there isn't it yeah and I quite like

modern creature comforts in reality to be fair maybe an RS because actually I quite like a PDK

yeah let's boot space though you true you have got the rear seat I'd do a roof box

okay plenty of space to put it to the wing yeah yeah I'll change my mind in five minutes if we

keep talking about it so yeah we're going with that today good selection have you seen the the

pictures of uh whatever skin I think it's the GT2 RS it's like wider than the RS what's it what's

the horsepower it's going to be like 550 on a GT3 RS yeah so it's and they keep I keep seeing

people comparing and it's like the GT3 RS is the biggest like two fingers up to

any other manufacturer's sports car crazy because it's got 500 whatever horsepower

and it's fast around the Nurburgring or any track it doesn't really make much sense how quick it is

it doesn't but it's it's about gearing and usability of that power isn't it clearly

and also grip like the 991 onwards to me almost felt a bit underpowered with the 3 RS

because there is so much rear end grip yeah and you have to drive like a bit of an idiot

to be sliding them about yeah or on a track with enough space where you can feel that limit of grip

yeah um it's actually something I don't necessarily enjoy as much about cars like that is the speeds

at which things start to move about yeah you just can't enjoy it on the road and it's it's

really anti-social I even find that like my my RS is on cup twos and on a hot day it's got so much

grip so much and that's nothing like 991 992 even more so I've put worse tires on my exige

I've put Nanklang NS2 RS which are half the price of cup twos so that means I can use them twice

as quickly yeah and B just admittedly in the rain on the way here they weren't fantastic but nor is

a cup two yeah it's just the limit of grip is a bit lower and it's just it's less wear on the car

it's more fun it's yeah yeah it's and they've got a stiffer sidewall so the feel is actually

better as well so better all around yeah I would love to do an afternoon where you could like

swap out four different sets of tires and just drive them around the roads and whatever and be like

actually this is this is where I want to be do I want a 4s do I want a 4

this podcast is part of the sports social podcast network

do I want to cup to whatever like and then just actually try it all because it's it's easy to

sort of go well I think I want a bit of this but until you try it you don't know whether

the other thing is it's in reality it's not fantasy money yeah and when you're having to spend an

extra 40 grand for the rs badge obviously there's a lot of engineering it's a car and but actually

things like spider rs I'd probably have the spider for the more normal roof yeah yeah I'd

want the engine and I'll probably end up modifying it but yes yes different experiences different

things right well thanks very much for coming on the podcast thank you it's been a fun one

lots to talk about and who knows maybe the next time you come on you'll be a few more years

and maybe a few models who knows and we won't be damaging wheel arches as we go on to your driveway

hopefully if you did it in a different place yes a different drive right thanks very much

George Williams | The Project Safari Elise And Get Lost Automotive

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