Hair today, gone tomorrow
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Car
Land Rover Range Rover
The Range Rover is a high-end SUV from Land Rover, famous for being both luxurious and capable off-road. It's a popular choice for those who want style and performance.
Car
Volkswagen Golf
The Volkswagen Golf is a small car that is very popular for its good design and practicality. It's known for being reliable and fun to drive.
Car
Porsche 911
The Porsche 911 is a famous sports car that has been around for many years. It's known for its unique shape and powerful performance, making it a favorite among car enthusiasts.
Car
Land Rover Freelander
The Land Rover Freelander is a small SUV that can handle rough terrain. It was made starting in the late 1990s and is known for being both practical and stylish.
Car
MGF
The MG MGF is a small sports car that seats two people. It was made in the 1990s and is known for being fun to drive and having a stylish design.
Term
Radwood
Radwood is a fun car event that focuses on cars from the 1980s and 1990s. People show off their classic cars from that time, which many find nostalgic and cool.
Car
Lincoln Navigator
The Lincoln Navigator is a big, fancy SUV that can fit a lot of people and stuff inside. It's known for being very comfortable and has lots of nice features, which makes it popular among families and those who like luxury.
Car
BMW M4
The BMW M4 is a fancy sports car that looks great and drives really fast. It's made by BMW, a brand known for making nice cars, and people love it for how fun it is to drive.
Company
Bentley
Bentley is a brand that makes very expensive and luxurious cars. They are known for their quality and speed.
Concept
Le Mans
Le Mans is a famous car race that lasts for 24 hours. It's a big deal in the car world and features many different types of cars racing together.
Car
Bentley Continental GT Speed
The Bentley Continental GT Speed is a fancy sports car that is very fast and luxurious. It's designed for comfortable long drives and has a lot of high-end features.
Car
Lancia Delta
The Lancia Delta is a small car that became famous for racing, especially in the 1980s. It has a unique look and is known for being fun to drive.
Car
Fiat X19
Car
De Tomaso Pantera
The De Tomaso Pantera is a sports car that was made in the 1970s and 80s. It has a powerful engine and a sleek design, making it a favorite among car lovers.
Car
Ford Pinto
The Ford Pinto is a small car that was made by Ford in the 1970s. It is known for having some problems with safety, especially in accidents.
Car
Ferrari Portofino
The Ferrari Portofino is a fancy sports car that you can drive with the top down. It's fast and stylish, making it a popular choice among car enthusiasts.
Car
Audi A8
The Audi A8 is a big, fancy car that's very comfortable and has a lot of high-tech features. It's designed for people who want a luxurious driving experience.
Car
Audi V8
The Audi V8 is a car made by Audi that was known for being luxurious and powerful. It had a V8 engine, which means it had eight cylinders for better performance.
Company
VW Audi
VW Audi is a big car company that makes cars under the Volkswagen and Audi names. They are known for making high-quality vehicles.
Part
tyres
Tyres are the round rubber parts that go on the wheels of a car. They help the car grip the road and are important for safe driving.
Term
V8 engine
A V8 engine has eight cylinders arranged in a V shape, which helps it produce more power. It's commonly found in larger cars and trucks.
Car
Audi All Roads
The Audi Allroad is a type of car that looks like a wagon but can handle rougher roads. It's designed to be practical and comfortable for different driving conditions.
Car
Chrysler 200S
The Chrysler 200 is a regular-sized car that people used to drive a lot. It has a nice design and is comfortable, but it didn't sell as well as other cars, which makes it interesting to talk about.
Car
Audi TT
The Audi TT is a small sports car that looks great and is fun to drive. The first version was made from 1998 to 2006 and is popular among car enthusiasts.
Car
Porsche Boxster
The Porsche Boxster is a two-seater sports car that is known for being fun to drive. It's designed to be lightweight and has a convertible top, making it great for sunny days.
Term
1.8T
The 1.8T is a type of engine that is 1.8 liters in size and has a turbocharger, which helps it produce more power while being efficient.
Car
Dodge Viper
The Dodge Viper is a fast sports car with a big engine. It's known for being exciting to drive but can be challenging for some drivers due to its power.
Concept
Humvee
The Humvee is a tough military vehicle that can drive on rough terrain. It's also used in some TV shows and movies, making it well-known to the public.
Car
Lamborghini Lm002
The Lamborghini LM 002 is a big, tough SUV that was made in the '80s and '90s. It's special because it was one of the first luxury SUVs, combining fancy features with the ability to go off-road.
Car
Lamborghini 002
The Lamborghini 002 is a special car from Lamborghini that some people find uncomfortable to drive because of its design. It's not very user-friendly, which can make it hard to enjoy driving.
Car
Volkswagen Polo
The Volkswagen Polo is a small car that has been around since the 1970s. The 'bread van' version is a specific style that looks like a small delivery van, which was common in the 1980s.
Car
Volkswagen Derby
The Volkswagen Derby is a small car that was made a long time ago, and it’s known for being practical and good on gas. It’s not very common today, but some people still remember it fondly.
Car
GMC Typhoon
The GMC Typhoon is a sporty SUV from the early '90s that was really fast for its time. It combined the space of an SUV with the fun of a sports car, which makes it special and interesting to car fans.
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Now look, we don't normally do car news on this podcast.
Not really.
Or we do, but we do it like six weeks after it's happened because we're very useless and forgetful.
And we'll put a spin on it that no one really asked for.
We talked about cars quite a lot last week and we had quite a few people go,
no, that's fine. We enjoyed that, which I didn't expect because usually we get
told off for talking about cars. But let's just shuffle over to the motor industry news desk because
it's steaming.
And we need to talk about Jerry McGovern. Hair.
Hair. Because let's be honest, everybody else is. So why not? But I also think that
there's been a great deal of chatter that's sort of incorrect or lacks any sense of knowledge
about how the car industry works. Yes.
As you probably know, the news broke last Tuesday that Jerry McGovern was leaving Jaguar Land Rover.
The implication was, in fact, he had left extremely abruptly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there was lots of hyperbole in the coverage about he was marched from the building.
Yes.
And all of this. Now, this was all a leak. There was nothing official.
For me, this was a very strange day because it was last Tuesday.
It was the day of Quentin Wilson's funeral. And I was just getting ready to leave to head to that
when someone I know who's very well connected in the car industry said,
McGovern's going from JLR. And that was all the message really said. So I thought, oh, right,
retirement because the fact is that Jerry McGovern turned 70 a couple of months ago.
Wow.
So he is well past retirement age.
I didn't know he was that old.
And I'd always assumed he's just hanging on in there till the new Jaguars are launched
or at least the first one is the first production car.
And then he can go, yeah, there you go. No need to thank me. I'm off.
And that will be his, his sort of swan song. So it's, I thought, well, maybe they've gone
hang on. No, you can't keep working past 70. You know, there's all sorts of policies in
place and la la la. So I'm afraid you're going to have to just hang up your hat.
And then I went to Quentin's funeral. Now, I should have guessed something was a foot because
there was a very senior JLR comms person there that we know. And he left extremely quickly
as soon as the service was over. And it was probably because there was trouble at mill.
His phone was, was melting. Yeah.
Because I had my phone off for a large chunk of the day. And it was only when I got back
to the car after the wake that I took it off aeroplane mode. And it, it, it went absolutely
bonkers with WhatsApps and emails and all sorts of stuff. And I was like,
and it became clear that the story that had leaked was my governs been booted.
That's right. And then like you say, it sounded like he'd been kind of forcibly
ejected from the business and the building. And I don't know if that's the case.
I have a theory about this. Now, the thing is, I think it's quite interesting how interested
people are in this whole situation. That's partly I think because he's been there for 21 years.
And that is a long time to be the boss of design anywhere.
And let's give him credit where it's due. He has overseen, I think, a range of very good
looking and very successful cars in the main. And he's masterminded things like
successive generations of Range Rover, two of them haven't been that many generations of Range Rover.
The scope to royally screw up the Range Rover, I think is much greater than people think.
It's one of those cars like the Porsche 911, like the VW Golf where it is sort of the
nucleus of the company in many ways. And you have to gently evolve it whilst not
letting it stagnate. That is a tough thing to pull off. It's a sacred item, isn't it?
Yes. And of course, people have opinions about it as well. If you get even one little detail
wrong in some way. And I know that there was a lot of flak for those panels on the doors of the
last shape one. But otherwise, I think generally people get...
I don't know what you're talking about.
That is a handsome car. It's also weathered really nicely, I think. And the new one, I think,
is a very good looking car with some lovely sort of subtle details that evolve it and make
it look modern. You know, depending on how you spec it, it can look actually,
you know, quite discreet and tasteful. And you could see the king getting out of one.
Or it can look like it's been ordered by Kim Cardasian or someone. And that's part of the skill
of the designers and the colour and trim people and stuff, is they've done a really good job,
I think. Yeah. So, you know, that fair enough,
Jeremy McGovern has overseen... There's been a lot of coverage as well. This always
slightly bugs me, but I understand why that people always attribute
entire car designs to whoever's in charge of design at a car company.
Yes, yes. Like it's one person with a clipboard.
Exactly. Yeah, he's got one sheet of A4 and he's going,
oh, go do a bloody Range Rover again. But design directors don't design cars.
They sit in meetings, is the truth of it. They are there, though, to be the taste makers.
They set the tone. They approve the concepts that will be evolved into production cars.
So they are the ultimate gatekeeper, but they're not sitting there sketching or rendering
or doing the clay modelling or anything like that.
They're huge teams that do the actual hard work, but they are the ones like Roman emperors who go,
yes, no, no, kill him. And that's how it works. But then the car comes out and all the hundreds
of people who've worked on it and the maybe one person, maybe a team who came up with the language
for that model, they get shuffled away behind the door and to a greater or lesser degree,
the design director gets to go, here's my new car. And that's just the way it works.
But I think, you know, it's worth saying that they're a conductor of the orchestra.
That's it. And the conductor has to know what everybody is doing
and where they should be and where they shouldn't be. Yes.
Because ultimately that that little stick carries pretty much all the clout on the night off of
the proms and all that. So how many, by the way, how many last nights are there of the
proms? I get very confused with that. I know it's a slightly different issue, but it seems to be
every night is the last night. It's true, isn't it? Yes. What about the first night of the proms?
First night of the proms where it's not full of people wearing Union Jack hats,
because I find them annoying. Anyway, yeah. So I think that's one reason why people
have an opinion about Jerry McGovern is because he's been there a long time.
He's overseen a lot of very familiar cars. And so people sort of have an opinion.
But I think also people have an opinion about Jerry McGovern, because he is quite a divisive
character. Very much so, yeah. People are fascinated by the man himself. Yeah.
And I would say that Jerry McGovern's relationship with the media has always been
tense, perhaps would be the word. I think what I think he lives behind a facade. I think he's
quite a shy person, believe it or not. And he has his guard up. So you never really see his
true personality on the outside compared to other designers and people in high up positions within
the industry who come across quite warm and approachable. Jerry's not. Yeah. Jerry's never
been approachable. But whether that's intentional, I don't know. He didn't come from a privileged
background. And I think that slightly informs his attitude, which is that
he is a little bit on the back foot because he thinks that maybe people don't think he
deserves to be there, despite a vast body of work that says, no, you're up to it, mate. You
can do this. Yeah. So I think that slightly informs his attitude to the media because
he doesn't enjoy their criticisms of his work or of him personally. Nobody likes
being criticised. But on the other hand, you have to say, look, you're the design director of a
very well known firm. Unfortunately, this is part of the role is sucking it up. But instead,
it led to this rather prickly relationship with the media. There was a preview of the
current Range Rover in the Gayden studio complex. And we all sat there on some chairs arranged
in the viewing room. And McGovern stood up and did a little speech. Henry Catchpole
was in the front row. Now, we know Henry, very affable man. But he's at work, he's listening
to what's being said because he's got to take a note of it for a story, presumably.
McGovern started speaking and he stopped. He looked at Henry and he went, cheer up,
you're at the reveal of a new Range Rover. Yeah. The rest was like, whoa, easy.
I was at that. I think I was in the front row at that event.
You were. Yeah, I remember you were there. Yeah. And yeah, he took a pot shot at me as well.
Did he? He did. Yeah. And I was extremely close because I have nothing to lose of just calling
him out on all the things that I think he should be doing. The converse of it is that kind of
outspoken style sometimes gave gold. And actually, I was thinking about this weirdly,
given that the news of his departure broke on the day of Quentin's funeral.
The first time I met Jerry McGovern was with Quentin. And we were filming at the Los Angeles
Motor Show in, I think this was the year 2000. We were having a break outside and Jerry just
wandered past because at that point he was at Lincoln, so he was based in the US.
And he knew Quentin and he seemed to like Quentin as well. So they sort of acknowledged
each other. And then Jerry came over and he sat down with us. And I'd never met him
before. I was a little bit starstruck because it's like, I've seen him in magazines. He's the bloke
who designed the MGF and the first Freelander. The Freelander, yeah. I found one on someone's
front garden the other day with the extra, you know, that body kit with Alan Key. Oh, yes.
Bolts and ribs on the Freelander. I don't know what, I'm sure it's got a name. But there
was one on someone's front garden with that full kit on it. Did it have those three
spoke wheels on it? It did. It looks so 90s. I actually liked it. It was a proper
Radwood contender in the making. Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah. That must be that body kit. It's
got to be super rare, but yeah. Anyway, no, so yeah, that's the first time I ever encountered
Jerry McGovern and he sat down with Quentin and I was just there listening in and he was
sort of disarmingly blunt and honest and was telling us how much profit per car Lincoln
made on the navigator, which was outrageous because it's basically a truck with leather
and stuff. Yeah. At that point, you know, he seemed candid and quite serious, but then the
next time that I met him was when the evoke was announced and EVO for some reason asked me to go
to this, or you know, all white infinity studios just off the M40 where there'd be a car
and a one on one with Jerry to talk about the design. And when I walked into the studio,
you know, he came out and shook hands and I said, okay, so should we just have a little
wander around the car and you can, you can sort of talk to me about the design and he just grabbed
two chairs and plonked them on the edge of the white studio bit and just went, here's what's
going to happen. We're going to sit here and we're going to have a conversation. And I was a bit
like, okay, we're right. And it was just, there was a very sort of like a police,
80s police detective doing interrogation. That's what it sounded like. Yeah. Cove,
copper telling you can have a chat. And if you didn't, you might accidentally fall down
some stairs. There was a sort of slightly aggressive tone to it. So we sat down, we're
having a chat. Another thing is, you know, he's an interesting guy to chat to because he's talking
about car design, which I think all of us who love cars, but aren't designers are fascinated by
the mechanics of it and the processes and the tricks of the trade. But then there was this
young junior PR, who's the only other person in the studio. And her phone went and she went
right to the back of the room to take the call. But they're very echoey spaces,
those. And even if it was a big room, you could still hear her voice. And this clearly
displeased Jerry. And when she came off the call, he called her over and he went,
is that how you conduct yourself when the design director speaking? And she's obviously like,
you can see us sort of paralyzed in fear. And then he just went on and on her. This is
very disrespectful what you've just done all this stuff. And I was like, I'm not enjoying
this. And he kind of shot me a look like, yeah, look at my power. I didn't enjoy it at all. I thought
it was it was unnecessary. Yeah, that's that's the kind of character he was. He didn't he just
didn't muck around. He was extremely direct. And he needed people to be aware of his status
as the top dog. Yeah, exactly of the power. And it's funny how since this news broke,
and it has gone very wide spread, there's been an awful lot of photos of bad hair circulating.
But and we are partly responsible for that. But there's a lot of a direct association with this
divisive new Jag concept. Yes. The electric big slab slabby velvet kind of finished Jag,
which has really divided people and a lot of people who hate that car or hate the way that
the brand did its massive relaunch. I think their point in the finger at Jerry may be going
right, he did this and there's been an almost backlash. And so that's why he's had to go.
We're pretty sure that's not the case, right? It's not. It's I've heard some people who
should know better peddling that line. And I find it deeply disappointing and frustrating
because it betrays an absolute lack of knowledge about how the car industry works.
And about lead times and all sorts of stuff. Absolute bollocks. It is no secret that
Jerry McGovern wielded an awful lot of power within Jaguar Land Rover and you know,
sat at board level, but he was not the only person there. There is a board and there is the company
Tata that owns them. I'm sure that with his force of personality and his passion for design,
he heavily pushed for Jaguar to go in that direction. But he did not just unilaterally
force it through without teams of very senior people having to approve it. So the idea
that those same teams suddenly went, oh, we've had we've had second thoughts, actually.
No, Jerry, you can't do that. In fact, you're going to have to go because you've really annoyed
us now with that. It's absolute nonsense. It's like just that's not how these things work.
And certainly not in those circumstances because the company is well aware, surely,
of how divisive that Jaguar concept has been. And of course, the associated marketing push.
The last thing you want as a company, and for that project as a whole, is any suggestion that
you've lost confidence in it and booted out the man who led the charge on the design. So
you absolutely wouldn't do that. And if you did do that, and if say it's like, oh, Jerry,
I'm afraid you 70 you really have got to retire. You go full PR management on this.
You put out the statements that say we are so grateful for all he's done for this company
for the last 21 years. There's a quote from him going, I'm so proud of what I've achieved.
The usual stuff, it's textbook. Yeah, we're recording now on Friday morning, news broke on
Tuesday. So far, there's been no official statement. We are still talking about something
that is to all intents and purposes, a leak. We don't know. He could be sitting in the
studio at the moment looking at a clay model going, no, I'm not sure about that.
This is all really conjecture. But I think we probably know enough people
who know enough people that it seems like it is absolutely rooted in truth.
We do. But the two things that have been going around are, oh, yeah, they had enough of them
because of the Jag. So they've booted him out. Absolute bollocks. I guarantee that's not the
case. Yeah. The other thing from a lot of people in the industry who are aware of Jerry's
quite brutal bedside manner, we're like, Oh, he's overstepped the mark.
You know, his outspokenness, his, his directness with colleagues has finally been pushed too far.
There were some pretty punchy rumors flying around on WhatsApps, which aren't repeatable.
But I'm, I think that's what it is. Do you?
I do. I have a different theory because Jag Landrover got a new CEO last month.
Yeah. It's a chap called PB Balaji, who is or was the chief financial officer for Tata Motors.
It seems like quite an interesting guy because he has a degree in mechanical engineering. So he's
not actually an accountant through and through. That's great. He feels like he's somebody who,
you know, has an understanding of other aspects of the industry. He's worked for Tata since
2017, but almost as soon as he joined, he was also appointed as a non-executive director on
the board of Jaguar Landrover. So he's not come to the company cold. He has some knowledge and
experience of it. Yeah, he knows the score. There are two things here that to me are sort of smoking
guns. One is he's been around JLR for a while. So he's presumably been around Jerry McGovern for
a while. Yeah. For the real smoking gun about this is that the news of McGovern's departure
was broken by AutoCar India. So it's somebody who has connections there.
It wasn't leaked to a Euro outlet first. Euro outlet. Yeah. Different pins on the plugs.
So my theory for what it's worth is that I think this new guy has come in and he's seen
the culture in action in JLR. It's not to his taste. And now that he's CEO, he can do something
about it. Yeah. So what happened next? You know, if you're that guy and you've gone, no, this is,
I don't like the fact that the design director or creative director, whatever McGovern was called,
has a lot of power. Well, things are going to change. Again, it's absolute conjecture,
but my assumption is this new CEO has gone from now on, things are going to be different.
You don't get to call all the shots. And McGovern has gone. Yeah, I do, mate,
because I've been here longer than you. I design Range Rovers, mate. Where would you be without
the Range Rover, eh? Nowhere. And you can imagine that maybe he said,
I don't think that's the case. And this could lead to some beautifully designed fireworks.
I can see, I feel like it might have been a face-off scene akin to something from dodgeball.
Let's hope it was on the roof of the R&D centre in Gaten. Yeah, like in Heat. I think, yes, I think
McGovern was a bit like Ben Stiller's character. I've just totally forgotten the name of,
who does sort of like points at people and does the sort of the neck, the slitting of
the neck thing. And like wearing, wearing mad clothes and like standing on his own desk
and pointing at people. I mean, I, look, I, we can't go into all the details.
You have a hunch. Well, the truth is we don't know all the details. I have to say,
this is all conjecture. We don't know. But my, my feeling is there's been a standoff because
PB Bellagy has decided that things have to change. He wants to assert his authority
as the new CEO. It's nothing to do with Jack Bellagy was on the board. He's seen all of this,
you know, I mean, even as a non-exec director, he can put his hand up. He's obviously
directly plugged into the mothership at Tata. If he thinks things are going in totally the
wrong direction, he can flag it there. It's not that. I think it's just he wants to run
the company now that he's got the controls in a different way. And he doesn't want
there to be somebody else who exerts a great deal of authority and power.
So there's been a standoff. It's all gone a little bit explosive. But again, back to the
smoking gun. It's not outside the bounds of possibility that it's all got a bit succession
here and Bellagy has gone, right, McGovern, you're out. And before Jerry McGovern can do
anything, he's leaked it to his contacts at Auto Car India to make sure the story is Jerry
McGovern has just been sacked. Yeah, there was definitely words about firing and things.
I mean, what I do hope, like I say, he's been a very, very successful designer in the same
way that you can have very talented musicians who write or perform incredible songs,
but they might not be very nice people. I feel like the working environment in the design
team might be a little bit lighter now. Yes. But I'm keen to see what comes next with regards
to design and whether because Jerry's had, he has had his kind of his gauntlet, gauntleted hand,
velvet gauntlet, obviously, on the shoulders of every designer. And it'd be interesting.
We know that some other designers have left because of the atmosphere there.
Yeah, I'd be really interested to see how.
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On the one hand you go, yes, absolutely it may. It's a nice little sort of clear the air,
create a different working environment, a different culture. Converse to that is,
I do believe sometimes that the most successful companies and organizations,
they need to be a kind of dictatorship. Now, it should be a benign dictatorship,
and no one should get shot for dissent. But what about if you accidentally fell out of a window?
It does happen a lot, doesn't it? Particularly in Russia, I think they need to look at their
standards for windows. Their window logs are terrible, and there's probably not enough banisters
on flights of marble stairs. I don't know. But I do worry that they still need somebody
with a sort of clear vision of what they want to achieve and the force of personality to get it
through. Because the worst thing you can have is sort of wishy-washy committee thinking.
I think we've seen it from Jaguar Land Rover in the past. I think when Ford owned them,
there was a lot of interference from the US, from what I gather. I'm sure it will all
come out. But I think it's amazing how much attention this has got. And I think it says
a lot about Jerry McGovern, both good and bad. The good is that he is clearly a very,
very talented design director and has a great eye for things, and by and large has
overseen some really, really good-looking cars and some very successful cars.
Highly successful.
But there's also this bit where I feel like when the news came out, the one thing I
wasn't detecting in any sort of WhatsApp or email chat or anything like that was
a great deal of sympathy. But it will be interesting to know. So yeah, I just suspect
that this new CEO is a pretty tough cookie and he's decided it's time for a change.
And this has led to fireworks. But who knows? I mean, all that stuff about being marched from
the building, it's like, all right, calm down. I think it's pretty standard when someone
really, really senior leaves a business. They go straight away. Jerry McGovern must know
the product plan for like the next decade and beyond. It's like he knows everything.
So you don't just go, stick around, mate. I mean, if you want to just fill a bag with
Post-it notes and Byros and, oh yeah, that whole product briefing on the next generation
Range Rover targets and competitors, that'd be great. You do that, my friend.
You always get asked to leave, don't you? It's just a bit of march from the building.
Sometimes if you're lucky, you've still got a 24 hour door pass and nobody's thought to cancel
like, yeah, I'm just putting that out there. Is that what happened to you? Maybe. I can't quite
remember. It wasn't the same for me, but I was working at a place that went bust and one of
the directors went, well, anyway, this is probably it, Richard. But if that brand new
laptop fell into your bag, I certainly wouldn't notice that. And that was how I went freelance
with a brand new laptop. Did you really? Which was very useful because I had no money,
but I did have an almost new laptop. So yeah, but I could you imagine if you'd been there 21 years
and had this incredible roster of work behind you. And then they just went, I'm afraid you've
got to go, all right, let yourself out. You want a bit of theater. You want to be escorted
from the building. You're hoping that all people are turning to luck as you walk by
like something out of a movie. Well, I feel you probably had a dodgeball exit across the courtyard.
But I think I want to finish this by saying the two things I hope come out of this
and neither of them are personal with Jerry, actually. It's more about the brands that I hope
the two things that come out of this are, I hope that Jag rises successfully back into
the limelight because I miss it as we've talked about before. And I think it's a shame that it kind
of got put on ice. And the second thing that I hope is that Land Rover specifically not Range Rover
has more of a entry level that is not quite as obsessed with luxury. Because I know McGovern
luxury was almost at the top of his focus group. And so it's one of those things which I feel like
Land Rover and Range Rover have got too close. And I wish that they were a bit further apart again.
And those are the two things that I hope come out of it. And maybe at some point I'd like to
see Jerry McGovern naked litter picking on the M4. Why would you want that?
I don't know, because if he's done naughty things, he should be punished for it.
That's all I'm going to say. I apologize for being a little bit
serious for the first half of this, but it just felt like we should address it.
Just to change the subject, please do. I saw on Instagram that Bentley have been doing some
I think they've been doing some shoots, some sort of promo launchy related things
in the Arctic Circle this week. And what I love about it is the fact that while they were up there,
they saw the Northern Lights. And a friend of ours, who's a photographer who was doing some stuff
for Bentley, took some great photos of the Northern Lights. And I've been to the Arctic
Circle and never saw the Northern Lights. And it made me think that
did the Northern Lights have beef with the Southern Lights? Do they just
constantly go, you know, they're just mocking them for like, I don't know, being a bit soft
and maybe having unnecessary layers of fluffy cloud around them to keep them warm and
things were different in our day. And it's so expensive. Southern Lights are way too expensive.
Northern Lights are just cheap, honest. You just generally good value.
I'm going to ask a very thick question now. Is there such a thing as the Southern Lights?
I don't think so. But I don't know.
I've never heard of it, but I might not pay attention.
But why would the Northern Lights be, I'm going to type it in.
Why would the Northern Lights exist if the Southern Lights? Oh, and they are!
Yeah, the Aurora Aurelius, the Southern Lights do exist. It's the natural light display
in the Southern Hemisphere, similar to the Northern Lights, but visible in locations like
New Zealand, Southern Australia, Tasmania, and Southern South America.
I thought you were going to say Southern Lights similar to the Northern Lights,
but soft and shite. Oh, wait, this is from the man.
So the thing about the Northern Lights is really grinding its teeth and getting cross
about the fact that you can't just order a normal coffee.
And a cup of tea is us five quid when you're out in a cafe.
It's just a bag in hot water.
You've just reminded me because my brother years ago worked for Bentley,
and they worked for an agency that worked with Bentley.
And he did a thing up in the Arctic Circle, I think, or somewhere up
cold north, setting a speed record on ice with Yuhar Kankinen.
Oh, well.
Which was amazing. But during that, he got to meet
five-time Le Mans winner Derek Bell.
Did he? Derek Bell just came along because he's mates with Yuhar Kankinen.
So one day they were up there for a few days.
One day, suddenly there's Derek Bell.
Really? That's so cool. I've been in a Bentley with Yuhar Kankinen, actually.
Have you?
Not in the... Yeah, but it was in Goodwood doing the hill at the time, the new Conti GT Speed.
And I was in a passenger seat doing journalists stuff, and I was desperately trying to
strike up a rapport with him, and it wasn't successful.
It was quite obvious that I was maybe the 30th person who'd been the car with him that weekend,
and he really didn't want to chat much. I think he just wanted to get the run done
and get out of the car and have a nice euro coffee.
But I... Yeah, it was a shame because I think I might have snuck into the conversation
how excited I was when I used to watch him in Lancia deltas when I was a kid.
And he just kind of... He just looked over at me and nodded and looked back at the road again,
and that was it. And I was like, okay, didn't get much out of him.
I thought he was going to wax lyrical, but no, he didn't.
I was a bit like, he's still cool, though.
And I've heard he's got some really nice cars in his personal collection,
and I would kill to do a UR Cancun and Car Cave on the name break show.
Oh! Or an idle chat with The Cank as nobody calls him.
We may have alighted on why you didn't strike up a rapport with him.
I didn't call him.
He'd go, all right, Cankie, how's it going, mate?
You all right?
Oh, hey, Cankie.
Hey, look, it's OK, sour!
I didn't call him Cankie. Or Cankie, OK?
You're Cankie bastard. Who do you think you are?
Look, before we go any further, we have to do a very important message,
which I swore I would do, and usually we absolutely screw this up,
but I'm not going to screw it up.
And we had an email from a listener called Alan who said,
I'm after some help from the wonderful car community,
and I can't think of a better way of reaching out than through you pair of flutes.
Oh, Alan.
My close friend Daryl is currently having a tough time battling cancer,
and his wife thinks it would be a distraction if we could arrange for him
to be taken for a spin in a Fiat X19, which was his first car.
If you could reach out to your brethren of SSGs to see if an owner
would be willing to help, it would be greatly appreciated.
Daryl lives in Canockwood near Litchfield in Staffordshire, as do I.
We'd be happy to pay someone's costs in cash, Smith, Sniff, Merch,
Pies, or their favourite tipple. Thanks in advance, Al.
So, yes, shout out.
Oh, Alan, that's really lovely.
Fiat X19 owners, and I appreciate it.
It's not a good time of year for an empty Fiat.
I was about to.
Must your wife.
I was about to.
Do you know?
But.
Spoiler alert, you know that is seen from the end of that
lovely heartfelt Christmas cartoon, The Snowman.
Yes.
When in the morning the kid opens the curtains.
So he's got a piece of melted.
It's just a hat and scarf on the ground.
Wait, that's just a target top and a steering wheel on the ground
where your X19 used to be.
And a bit of vinyl.
We're not doing a good job here of selling this.
No.
Look, X19 owners, you know what your cars are like,
but look, it's not always damp.
And this could be an incredibly kind and generous thing
to do if you are anywhere near Staffordshire
or you're willing to travel in return for pies or merchandise.
That would be fantastic.
It's a lovely, lovely thing, Alan.
And it helps someone out while they're going through a tough time.
So if you can help, drop us a line hello at smithandsniff.com
and we will pass your messages on to Al.
Yeah.
And if we can help in any way, we will try.
But yeah, that's great.
And I hope we do find Darrell a Fiat X19.
To this day, I remember seeing an X19 for the first time
as a very small kid.
And I thought it was the most spaceshipy car.
It had crazy design alloys.
It had that huge cooling deck, the mid-engine cooling deck,
the cladding.
It had lots of plastic on it
when plastic cladding was fashionable and new from memory.
And I, Blimey, loved it.
I've still never driven one, ever.
No, me neither.
And I'd love to.
I hope they're not disappointing.
But I've heard they're quite good.
Yeah, I have as well.
Also, if you want a real treat,
look up an early X19 because they are one of those cars.
And this quite often happens to Italian cars.
They are so delicate and pretty in their original form.
And then over time, more plastic and stuff got added to them.
And actually the engine cover,
because the original engine cover wasn't as raised and prominent
as it became because the engine got bigger.
But an early X19, they are so good-looking.
It's like Di Tommaso Pantera or Kuntas Syndrome,
where you accept the way that you remember them from the 80s.
But actually, if you look at an original,
they are much, much better-looking,
much simpler and more beautiful.
So I've been watching Stranger Things
and enjoying the appearances of that kidnap van
in it that isn't a kidnap van.
You know, the kind of van that they use
to track the underground,
not the underground, the upside-down creatures with,
which has got like angel hair,
headlining and shag-pile carpet
and bad murals and stuff.
I've been enjoying that.
And I've been enjoying the fact
that there's still a Ford Pinto in it.
Winona Ryder is still driving a Ford Pinto,
which it's exactly that green,
which was the one that I was offered
when I was working out in the States a decade or more ago,
and I'm still pissed off that I didn't buy it for $1,000.
I just don't understand why I didn't buy it.
It's very un-Johnny Smith to just go,
yeah, no, I think I've got enough on at the moment.
I won't buy that.
Yeah, that doesn't sound like you at all.
I'm still really annoyed with myself
for not pulling the trigger on that one, Richard.
I think I've said before,
we stopped watching Stranger Things
during or just after the first series
because my wife found it too unsettling.
This is the last series now that it's...
This is the very last series.
So, yeah, I mean, I've seen a couple of episodes.
I haven't binge-watched it
because I don't do binge-watching.
But it's great.
I mean, you'd like it just from a synthesizer fanatic perspective.
Well, that's the thing.
Just that alone, the synthwave is good.
Hey, it's sort of tangentially talking about synths.
I was driving through downtown Bath Bath two weeks ago,
and a Ferrari Portofino went past in the other lane.
Now, you don't see Portofinos around very much.
Do you? They're just sort of not a thing.
But there's a Portofino.
And then I noticed the number plate and the number plate.
And I can't figure out how this had been achieved
because it wasn't strictly accurate,
but it sort of attempted to say hooky.
And then I remembered that this was a Saturday,
the night before,
who was playing live in Bath with his band,
but Peter Hook, formerly out of New Order.
New Order? Good to see me.
Yeah. Well, you're a massive fan of this gig.
I know. I've always thought I'd quite like to see
because Peter Hook plays New Order albums in full
in the first half of these gigs that he does with his band, The Light.
And then he'll do a sort of mixture of various New Order
and Joy Division songs in the second half.
And I mean, quite honestly,
I'd quite like if he did a few songs by Monaco,
one of his solo efforts that I think were underrated.
But so I couldn't go to that gig the previous night,
but I'd seen it was on.
And I was a bit like, that's got to be.
So I was able to surge forward in traffic
and pull alongside.
And sure enough, it was hooky out of New Order.
Brackets retired in a Ferrari Portofino.
And I found that quite interesting because
I know for and fact that for many years,
Peter Hook was a large Audi loyalist.
He had A8s, I believe, for years.
And I think he actually before that had an Audi V8.
Did he?
It was a friend of mine's dad worked for a big
VW Audi dealership in the Northwest.
And I think he'd said they'd had him in.
They'd had him in with possibly his V8
needing new tyres.
And it was quite a young car.
And it's because he was doing loads of miles up and down
the motorway from Manchester down to just around here, actually.
Because they were recording the Republic album
in real world studios, Peter Gabriel's place,
which is just outside Bath.
So doing a lot of high speed motorway work.
High speed motorway work,
but in a heavy four-wheel drive car.
It's quite punishing on the tyres.
Now, this was the Audi that just simply was called the V8,
wasn't it, for listeners that might not remember?
Dry run for the A8.
And it was a 100 or 200 that was slightly pumped up
and had a V8 engine in it.
And by all accounts, it wasn't brilliant.
But I quite like them.
I've always quite liked them.
I think it was the first Audi that had the framed grille.
Not the big, goatee-beared one,
but when they first went to the rectangular,
yeah, the landscape aspect grille,
that was, I think that's where that started from memory.
Or maybe it was on the S2.
Anyway, it's weird that you should be saying that
because I've started to have,
after our conversation the other week about Audi all roads,
I've started to have a thing about early Aero Audi's
all over again.
Oh.
I just, I'm craving that really simple
but aerodynamically efficient, understated
shape.
I love the coupes of those.
I love the 200s.
Oh, I do.
There's so many models.
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Big fan.
You know, one of those conditions like,
I don't know, chlamydia or something
that sort of can lie dormant.
Yes.
In a person's body and then flares up again.
Yes.
I feel like I have that.
But with first generation TTs.
Oh, completely.
And they are, there's such good value.
They're them and the Boxster.
You know, this similar kind of ilk of car.
They're both good looking and they're both fun and well built.
No, I love the first gen TTs.
But I think that amongst people like us,
I think they're getting this growing respect.
Yeah, they used to get a bit sort of told that they didn't get the respect
because they weren't, it wasn't a driver's car like a Boxster.
No, but it also had a hell of an engine.
Of course, that 1.8T, the Tri-grade, it's a hell of an engine.
It's a lusty engine, isn't it?
Oh, it's great.
I mean, I, of course, wrote off the first generation TT.
And so maybe it's unfinished business for me.
I need to get one and drive one and prove it.
I can do that without crashing it.
Because I'm not a 23-year-old knobhead anymore.
But it's funny you should say that.
It's the same as my Dodge Viper thing.
I've never driven one since having the incident.
And I feel like it's an episode I ought to make for content.
Me kind of revisiting my fears.
I'd like to see that.
Yeah, I was talking to Chris Harris about it earlier in the year.
He thought it was a great idea.
And yeah, so we should do that really.
So I actually forgot to say, Stranger Things is featuring a lot of Humvees.
And this last series is based in 1987.
I think the first series was based in 82.
And as I was watching it, I started to look at all these Humvees,
thinking, hang on a minute, was the Humvee out in 87?
I don't think it was.
And then I started smashing through Google as you do.
And but I was wrong.
1985, it's first saw military service, I believe.
So I was put back in my box.
I know that the sort of the projects or the military commission
that led to the Humvee dated back to the 70s.
Because it's part of the long-winded way that Lamborghini LM002 story
is sort of touches on that.
Because that grew out of a pitch to the US military
for what then eventually led to the Humvee.
So it definitely is.
But all those military procurement projects, they go on forever, don't they?
You go to like the museum and there's a thing about the history of the Eurofighter.
And you found out that the first prototype was built in 1969 or something.
You're like, God, I thought they only came out like a couple of years ago.
They've got to be proved, haven't they?
Like Paul Hollywood's dough.
Yes, I think maybe because I think if you said to me
was the Humvee around in 1987, I'd have been skeptical.
Because I feel like for us in this country, certainly,
we knew nothing of the Humvee until suddenly the Gulf War in 1991, was that?
Suddenly they were on the news and you're a bit like, what that?
And then of course, suddenly they're in every single Arnold Schwarzenegger movie,
even if it's set in the Renaissance.
You've reminded me of the fact that I think, I might have to do a top five one day.
I think the Lamborghini 002 is ergonomically the worst thing I've ever got in
and moved around the car park.
In fact, I got out of it and I was so relieved that I didn't have to go out and drive it on the road.
It's like that thing is so shit.
I don't want to even be in it again.
It was terrible.
It was so terrible.
It was offensive.
I was actually offended by it.
How could you put something together with everything in the wrong place?
And it just looks horrible.
There's no room.
There's no, nobody's thought this through.
It's just appalling.
What an absolute mess of a car.
I've got no interest in them.
I'm really sorry.
Wrong engine, wrong car, wrong look, wrong ergonomics.
Just all wrong.
Get in the bin.
Stupid, just stupid.
Yeah, says the man who's got a run show.
Well, sort of, yeah.
I don't know why this has suddenly come to mind again,
but I've meant to mention this to the other day.
I saw pulling out of a lay-by a bread van polo from the 80s.
Lovely.
Yes, because you don't see them around anymore.
And they were once a sort of mainstay of small cars in this country.
And as I went past it,
I could see the guy who was craning his head looking backwards
to see when it was safe to pull out of this lay-by.
And it was a very young man.
You know, I would say someone in the early-mid-20s maybe.
Yeah, that's when I owned mine.
Was it?
But then it was still a sort of contemporary-ish car.
Yeah, I had four of them.
You had four of them?
Yeah, I had...
I didn't realise you'd had that many.
Yeah, I had one bread van, two coupes, and one badge as a derby.
Oh, yeah.
The derby one, incidentally, was the one that I told you I bought.
I bought it from a car boot sale in Bristol.
It had a week's MOT and I was at a car boot sale
buying the usual things like, I don't know, candles and toilet roll
and broken pictures and pornography.
And there was a guy...
An electric typewriter.
You don't need seven pounds.
Yes.
And the guy was actually, they were just clearing away.
And the guy who had this polo derby,
and he went, there was a sign in the window.
And I went, I was the car for sale.
He went, yeah, I just thought I'd try and sell it at the same time.
He said, it's got a really short ticket on it,
but it runs and drives.
Obviously it got me here this morning
as an intermittent misfire, I think.
And I was like, well, what do you want for it?
He goes, I don't want to take it home.
He said, I'll just scrap it at the end of the week
if I don't get any takers.
And I was like, well, I don't have much,
because of course you've carried cash
around a car boot sale then.
I said, I don't have a great deal of cash.
He said, well, you know, what you got...
Honestly, we two'd and frode for a minute
and he was, he had a smile on his face.
I knew he just didn't want the car anymore.
I said, I've got 15 quid in my pocket.
And he went, get on then,
drop me back at the railway station.
He can have it.
And I drove it back from the car boot sale.
I bought it for 15 quid and it wasn't crap.
It wasn't crap.
In the late 90s, someone, I know,
was offered a proper bread van one for 50 quid.
Brilliant.
And I think they went, actually,
do you know what?
I don't even know the car.
That's fine.
And I think it just got scrapped.
And I was like, even at the time,
I was like, why is it 50 quid?
Because I just, I don't know why.
I think it's because one of my mates had,
well, it was his mum's car.
But when we were like 17, 18,
he always used to rock round in this bread van polo,
which he was able to make go much faster than seemed possible,
given they were famously not very powerful cars
and had terrible brakes.
But maybe that was part of the secret.
The brakes was, yeah.
We've talked about this before.
We're particularly in relation to Festive
of the Unexceptional house.
It's sort of a generation now that are treating cars
from the 80s and 90s as absolute bona fide classics.
And they find them very cool.
But what was interesting to me about the polo was
that, that is, I didn't clock the reg,
but it's near as damn it a 40 year old car.
They are, yeah.
They are.
Which let me to think, like,
if this was 1995 when we were, you know, young-ish,
I was 20 in 1995.
If I had a 40 year old car in 1995,
that would have been a car from 1955.
And I just can't imagine that.
It's very interesting you brought this up because
I've been having these moments of like,
yeah, I bought my Beetle in 96 when it was,
what was it, 30?
It was 30 years old.
It was a 66 Beetle.
And the generation of retro cars around that era
felt like there was huge voids in between 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.
And then what was new at the time, let's say 90s then.
And now, yeah, 40 years, mid 80s, 30 years, mid 90s, 20 years, early 2000s.
And you just go, none of those, none of those are elderly in so much as they'll all do motorway
speeds.
They've all got functioning heating and like headlights that you can see out with and
a radio and just things that you'd expect.
Whereas if I got a 21 year old into a basic car from the 60s now,
it would, you'd have to do a full tutorial on how to start and stop it really.
You would, wouldn't you?
Whereas a car from the 80s, pretty much, I mean, it might have a choke, it might not.
But apart from that, it'll be similar.
Yes.
An instrumentation will be similar.
Dashboards didn't change a great deal.
Yeah. So I think we had a quantum leap between there and actually those cars that we just talked
about, that mid 80s, mid 90s to, let's say 2005, 2006, just to make it neat.
Those are the cars that are growing in value the quickest right now, aren't they?
And in my head, I want to try and remind people that actually the absolute bargains at the
moment are cars of the 50s, a bit of 60s, and even 40s and pre-war.
And there's some absolute gems out there and they're not selling for much money
because there's a total lack of awareness about them.
But it doesn't mean they're crap.
Yeah. We'll talk about this another time.
I wanted to mention briefly that slate pickup truck, which was announced a while ago,
but I've seen that they've been showing it to some people, I think a later prototype or
something, but one of the things people really seem really jazzed about is the fact that it has
wind up windows. And I've been like, I don't, I mean, yes, I get it, less to go wrong,
but electric windows are very rarely a failure point in a car that's under 15 years old.
Oh, it's like, oh no, under 15.
It's the same time it's got a TFT instrument pack.
You know, it's got like a full, it's got a screen for an instrument pack.
It's like, if you're embracing simplicity, it feels like the wind up windows are a
bit token on that. I don't know. Maybe that's just me.
I'd rather have needles, dash needles. So if one of the pieces of instrument goes wrong,
the others are okay. Much rather, much rather.
This feels, it does this like sort of some kind of philosophical magazine column.
What is simplicity in cars? But we should bring this towards the dock so it can be tied up safely.
Shall we?
Or dragged up the land so that Johnny can attempt to launch it again.
In a really, really, really sketchy way.
All right. Well, before we go, three things to tell you, the first one is that Johnny's
engaged in a very odd project to tour the cliffs of Eastern England and Scotland,
setting up a medieval humiliation device and then locking the former city lead singer of
Merillion into it while overlooking the water under the working title North Sea Fish Stocks.
If that's not to your taste, then there's always the late break show.
Lots of excellent videos on there.
You fool!
I said a stop on it.
What's happened on late break?
We've got this, the latest video will be an update on my Matra Rancho WRX
body swap project. So there's a roundup, as they would say, on that.
And yeah, I'm just putting together all the other videos that will go out over the Christmas
period so that I can have a bit of time off but without showing any sign of
cutting corners with video quality. So yeah, that's what's happening on that front, Richard.
Smashing. All right. Second thing I wanted to say is a variety of promotional messages.
First of all, if you're listening to this the day it comes out, the 8th of December,
one week today on the 15th of December, we are doing a live show in Bristol.
Bristol. And last I looked, there are still some tickets available. It's in the Tobacco Factory
Theatre where we were last time we were in Bristol. It's an excellent venue.
It is a really good venue, yeah.
It'll be our last show of the year. Might be a bit Christmassy.
There is also a Panto in the same theatre and they've told us that
we have to work around some bits of their set. So that could be interesting but we're going to
give it a go. Let's make it Christmassy everybody.
And so yeah, let's make it Christmassy but so that'll be nice. So 15th of December in Bristol,
go to SmithandSniff.com and follow the link to the live show page to get tickets.
Hopefully there's still some available by the time you get there.
And we'll have lots of merch there to sell if you can't be bothered to mail order such
things. You just want to physically go and touch a hat before buying it.
And I hope we'll have some of my books after they sold out quickly at Derby but actually
this used to be some kind of weird log jam with getting some more in so that might be
a lovely disaster for me. But why not just go on to Amazon and order my new book Petrolhead
Collection of My Evo Columns which is available to buy as an e-book or a paperback
or ask someone to get it for you for Christmas.
And the third thing I was going to tell you is that, you know the song My Way,
very famous song of course, Frank Sinatra and all that. My Way could have been written by David
Bowie. Could have. Could have. This is a bit, it's a weird one this but basically
My Way is based on a French song called Combe d'Abitude and a song publishing company
commissioned David Bowie then a young up-and-coming singer-songwriter to write some English words
for Combe d'Abitude. And so he did and submitted them and the publisher went,
no I don't like these. They then got Paul Anker to have a go and he came up with My Way
and gave it to Frank Sinatra and it became that song that's always played at People's
Funerals and Bowie, the brilliant thing is that Bowie was a bit pissed off about this and so he
decided to write a parody of My Way after it came out and his parody of My Way is
what we now know as Life on Mars. Oh really? And it's so, you saw us as if you can hear it
in a way. Obviously it kind of evolved into something different and brilliant in its own
right. Very different. Yeah. But yeah, the roots of Life on Mars are that Bowie was pissed off that
his attempts to adapt a French song wasn't accepted, were rejected and then My Way became
a huge hit. Well, wow. Well, can I add a fourth thing very briefly? If you're at a loose end
go on the internet. I found it. I was served it on Instagram and look up a chat called Typhoon
Tommy Nuttall who is a freestyle jet skiing man who is well over 60 years old. It's pretty weird
but I guarantee it will make you giggle. Never seen a man on a jet ski doing things like
handstands, headstands and kind of sitting on the handlebars and like trying to spray people
passing boats with his white spray. Okay, sounds good. All right, well anyway, that's all fabulous.
Thank you for listening. We're back on Friday with an Otter Sot and then a new episode on
Monday and hopefully see a few of you next Monday in Bristol. Until then, come to Bristol. Goodbye.
Cheers mate, guys. Bye then, guys. See you in Bristol, guys.
Goodbye, our merchandise. We've mugs and hats, but still no ties.
One day we will make those pies, but in the meantime, guys, hey guys, like and subscribe
and maybe leave a nice review. Like and subscribe. We know you know just what to do.
Like and subscribe. We don't want to take the piss. Like and subscribe.
But we were told to ask for this. Like and subscribe.
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It's a god of a small affair. I did it my way, etc.
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About this episode
A lively discussion centers around the abrupt departure of Jerry McGovern from Jaguar Land Rover, sparking debates about his impact on design and the car industry. The hosts reflect on McGovern's long tenure, his divisive personality, and the speculation surrounding his exit, including theories about the new CEO's influence. They also touch on the significance of design directors, the evolution of iconic models like the Range Rover, and the broader implications for Jaguar's future. The episode blends humor with insightful commentary on the automotive world.
Audi A8
Audi Allroad
Audi TTS Coupe Competition Plus
Audi V8
Bentley Continental GT Speed
BMW M4
Chrysler 200
Dodge Viper
Ferrari Portofino
Fiat X1/9
Ford Pinto
GMC Typhoon
Lamborghini LM 002
Lancia Delta
Land Rover Freelander
Land Rover Range Rover
Lincoln Navigator
Porsche 911
Porsche Boxster
Volkswagen Derby
Volkswagen Golf
Volkswagen Polo
Original notes
Jonny and Richard discuss Gerry McGovern’s sudden departure from Jaguar Land Rover. Also in this episode, trying to win over Juha Kankkunen, the cars of Stranger Things, what Peter Hook drives, aero Audi cravings, the surprising age of Humvees, and buying a VW from a car boot sale.
For early, ad-free episodes and extra content go to patreon.com/smithandsniff
To buy merch and tickets to live podcast recordings go to smithandsniff.com
Richard’s new book https://amzn.eu/d/fO1ti5O
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Smith and Sniff
Jonny Smith and Richard Porter
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58:53