The Truth About Cars Oct 31, 2025

Here's Why Chinese Cars Are So Advanced

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Term

battery booster packs

A battery booster pack is like a small battery that you can carry in your car. If your car battery dies, you can use it to start your car without needing help from someone else.

Term

click, click, click sound

When you hear a 'click, click, click' sound when trying to start your car, it usually means the battery is dead or there's a problem with the part that starts the engine.

Brand

BYD

BYD is a big car company from China that specializes in making electric vehicles and batteries. They are one of the largest producers of electric cars globally.

Brand

Geely

Geely is a car company from China that makes different types of vehicles, including electric ones. They have grown a lot and now own other car brands too.

Brand

Nio

Nio is another car company from China that makes electric cars. They are known for their unique battery-swapping system, which lets you quickly change out your car's battery instead of charging it.

Term

Chinese cars

Chinese cars are cars made by companies in China. They are becoming more popular because they are getting better in quality and design.

Brand

Volvo

Volvo is a car brand from Sweden that is famous for making safe and reliable vehicles. They have cars like sedans and SUVs.

Brand

Škoda

Škoda is a car company from the Czech Republic that makes affordable and practical cars. They are popular in Europe.

Brand

Ford

Ford is a well-known car company in the United States that makes many types of vehicles, like trucks and cars. They have been around for a long time and are very popular.

Brand

GM

GM stands for General Motors, which is a big car company in the U.S. They make many different brands of cars, like Chevrolet and Cadillac.

Term

EVs

EVs stand for electric vehicles, which run on electricity instead of gasoline. They are better for the environment because they produce no tailpipe emissions.

Term

plug-in hybrids

Plug-in hybrids are cars that can run on both electricity and gasoline. You can charge them at home, and they can drive a certain distance using just electricity before needing gas.

Car

Land Rover Range Rover

The Range Rover is a fancy SUV made by Land Rover. It can drive off-road and has a plug-in hybrid version that can run on electricity for a while before using gas.

Car

Chevrolet Bolt

The Chevrolet Bolt is a fully electric car that doesn't use gas at all. It's designed to be affordable and has a good range, meaning you can drive it for a long time on a single charge.

Term

MSRP

MSRP is the price that car makers suggest dealers sell their cars for. It's a starting point for how much you might pay for a new car before any extra costs.

Term

megawatt charging

Megawatt charging is a super-fast way to charge electric cars. It can fill up the battery much quicker than regular charging stations.

Term

kilowatts

Kilowatts measure how much power something uses or how fast it can charge. For electric cars, a higher number means faster charging.

Term

battery swapping

Battery swapping means you can quickly change your car's dead battery for a fully charged one instead of waiting for it to charge. It's like getting a new battery in minutes!

Term

ICE propulsion

ICE propulsion means using engines that run on gasoline or diesel to power cars. It's the way most cars have worked for many years before electric vehicles became popular.

Term

electrification

Electrification means changing cars from using gas or diesel engines to using electric power. It's part of the move towards cleaner energy and reducing pollution.

Brand

Volkswagen

Volkswagen is a well-known car company from Germany that makes many types of cars. They have had some issues in the past, especially related to how they reported emissions from their vehicles.

Company

Rivian

Rivian is a company that makes electric trucks and SUVs. They are trying to create vehicles that are great for outdoor adventures.

Term

infotainment system

An infotainment system is the technology in cars that lets you listen to music, get directions, and connect your phone. It's like a mini computer for your car.

Car

Cadillac Lyric

The Cadillac Lyric is a new electric SUV from Cadillac. It's designed to be stylish and high-tech, making it a competitor to other luxury electric cars.

Term

EV

EV means electric vehicle, which runs on electricity instead of gas. They are better for the environment and can save money on fuel.

Company

Zeekr

Zeekr is a brand that makes high-end electric cars and is part of the Geely company. They focus on creating stylish and advanced electric vehicles.

Term

Pivi Pro infotainment

Pivi Pro is a system in Land Rover and Jaguar cars that helps you control things like music and navigation through a touchscreen, making it easier to use while driving.

Car

The Oldsmobile Intrigue is a type of car that was made by a company called Oldsmobile until they stopped making cars. It's known for being a comfortable and stylish car, and people talk about it because it represents a change in car design and technology.

LIVE

Hello, and welcome to the Truthwell Cars Podcast.

This week we're talking about Chinese cars, NASCAR at Martinsville, Battery Booster Packs

and more.

Analyst Ribadid Graf swings by to talk about the Chinese market, and Matthew Guy talks

Battery Booster Packs.

He and I also review NASCAR at Martinsville and preview the championship at Phoenix.

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a review.

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We are at ttech.com, that is ttac.com, or the Truthwell Cars, offbuildout.com, your

home for car reviews, car news and so much more.

Here on the Truthwell Cars Podcast, we're always talking about the stuff that we

use in our homes, in our cars and on our cars, as the case may be.

And we have Matthew Guy just about always with us, ttech contributor Matthew Guy.

How are you doing today?

Hey, I'm doing pretty good.

How are you doing?

I'm doing well.

So we're talking battery booster packs.

Is that correct?

Yeah, battery booster packs, and it's something, it's one of those things, it's like car

insurance.

You hope you rarely need to use it, right?

But still, it's better to have it than have it in your car, just in case.

Especially if you live in a place where it gets cold and no winter.

You're so right.

There's so many times when you've just gone out and you've experienced this too.

Just click or even worse, just that click, click, click, click, click that stutter.

Oh, I hate that.

Yeah.

Oh, just so close to, so close to starting.

So yeah, I did.

I picked up this, I picked up this battery booster and it's a jump starter with an

air compressor in it.

And that's new for this old guy here at least.

I have had lots of these jump starters that have been a lot smaller than the older lead

acid battery ones that you'd have back in the day where you'd lug them around maybe

30 or 40 pounds.

You've probably seen those at your dealership days, right?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, right, the really, really big ones.

And so I've had a few that have been smaller, right, but still packed a pretty

good punch.

But this one has an air compressor in it and I'm always wary about products that

purport to do more than one thing at a time.

Just my take sometimes is that these things are either good at one thing, but not

great at everything, right?

But still put that aside.

And the brand is called Wolf, W-O-L-F, Wolf Box.

They're available in places like eBay and places like that.

I got mine from the site, you know, from the company itself, but they can be

had through places like eBay.

And there's a bunch of different power levels of them.

This one is 4,000 amp or 160 PSI on the compressor side of it.

And you can charge your phone out of it, right?

There's outlets for that.

There's a really strong flashlight, right?

There's all kinds of these things.

So this is probably about the size.

I don't know.

Probably about if you look at the size of your hand, I guess, is probably

about the size of an average person's hand, maybe a little bit bigger

in terms of its footprint.

And then it's three, four, three, four inches thick, I guess.

And it comes with everything you need to boost your car.

The clamps themselves are separate.

They're included with this, but they're not permanently attached to the device.

You plug them in through a secure port on the side of the device.

And what's really important to me and our readers should know

if they're shopping for something like this on a place like eBay,

this Wolfbox 4,000

product here is able to be turned on as a battery booster.

And I know as a jump starter, I know that sounds pretty dumb,

but not everything does it.

Not every booster does it.

So what I mean is that some booster, some of the really

cheap ones that aren't, you know, totally strong in terms of boost in the car.

When you hook them up, when you hook up the positive and negative,

when you connect them to your car, unless the battery

that you're trying to boost has a trickle of charge in it,

just a little bit of charge in it, it won't, quote, unquote, wake up.

And that is troublesome for me because I'm often working on beaters

and stuff that's just completely dead, right?

So in those instances, the battery pack is no good because it won't turn on.

But one like this Wolfbox has a dedicated on button

and it is an override.

It's not meant to be used all the time, but it is an override

where you can manually turn this jump starter on.

So it doesn't matter if your battery in your car is completely dead.

This thing will still work.

So I just that's just something for our listeners to watch out for

when they're shopping for something of this nature.

Yeah, absolutely.

Is there anything else you kind of want to talk to about?

Battery packs and battery packs seem pretty straightforward.

Not a ton to get into in terms of complex topics or even safety

other than other than making sure you don't reverse polarity

and making sure you have the negative in the positive hookup in the right spot.

But is there anything else you want to talk to us about when it comes to these things?

Even with the reverse polarity, a lot of these things,

including this Wolfbox have safeguards in them.

They'll just they'll just stop.

They just won't work. Right.

So that's yeah, that's a very good thing.

It is a good thing.

And then, you know, something like this Wolfbox has a great big screen on it.

It's easy to use.

There's instructions printed right on it.

So it's great to have toss it in the small enough

you can toss it in your glove box or in the center console of the car

and great to have around.

Yeah, yeah.

So these are very handy products.

And I said if you live where it's cold,

but even in California, Florida, batteries can die.

If you don't like if you don't drive your car long enough, it'll die.

You know, that's one reason why we use these at the car dealership

because used cars or even new cars are set in the lot for too long

without being moved and too long can be a matter of matters.

The few days the batteries could die.

And again, that happens with new cars, too.

Eventually, all cars have what they call key off current drain

where the electronics drain some current.

And if you don't run your car for a few days, it'll drain it down

just like your cell phone battery will die if you don't charge it.

And I would also suggest that even in places where it's normally warm,

it can get cold at night.

It can get cold enough.

You know, it snows occasionally Las Vegas.

It gets cold in the desert sometimes.

It gets cold in Southern California sometimes.

So I would say that no matter where you live,

you probably need something like this.

Agreed. It's definitely something that is a great investment to have.

They're not super expensive, right?

You know, two, three, four hundred dollars,

but you don't need to spend that much on one of these things

and just to have a bit of peace of mind.

Yeah, absolutely a piece of mind is worth it.

So with that in mind, excuse me, with that in mind, Matthew,

if there's not anything else you need to add,

we will go ahead and wrap up this segment here

and this week's Truth About Cars podcast sounds great.

Thank you for having me on.

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On this week's Truth About Cars podcast,

we are chatting with Robbie DeGraft

from Autopacific, he is a manager

of Product and Consumer Insights

and we are chatting about China.

Robbie, how are you doing today?

I'm good Tim, it's good to be back on the show.

Hope things are well with you.

Things are well and glad to have you back.

So over at Autopacific, what you guys do

is a little different than what we do at TTAC.

You're more of an analyst company,

analyzing the industry, sales data, consumer data,

that sort of thing.

And you've been looking at the Chinese market

which I think is in the back of every car enthusiast mind

and every car, do you,

every auto, I'm trying to figure out the correct phrasing,

every automotive industry employees mind.

I think whether you're an executive of a car company,

a low level or middle management, cubicle,

dweller, plant worker, auto dealer, selling new cars,

car sales person, service rider, service mechanic,

whatever you're gonna call it.

I think all of us are concerned,

I'm not concerned necessarily,

but at least curious what's gonna happen

with the Chinese market.

So you guys did a study on what was going on

with China and the future

and considered Chinese brands and all sorts of stuff.

So come on and walk us through what you worked on

and what you found.

Yeah, so every year our company puts out

this massive nationwide study.

It's called our future attribute demand study.

And we, this year surveyed a little under 19,000 consumers

that plan to either buy or lease a new vehicle

within the next three years.

So these are people that are actively doing the research,

actively planning on entering the new vehicle market

in the upcoming couple of years.

And amongst gathering data and insights

on what type of features people want,

what are they buying an electric vehicle

or a gas vehicle?

Do they wanna pick up truck or a minivan?

We dive a little bit into some of the geopolitical stuff

in terms of China.

It's definitely no secret that over the past couple of years

that the Chinese auto market is just,

it's insane right now.

I mean, when it comes to innovative features

and technology and style,

but also delivering all of that altogether

in price points that Western automakers

just cannot even come close to meeting.

It's pretty remarkable what's happening over there.

So we've been, the past couple of years

we've been tracking what US vehicle buyers think of this.

Are they aware of what's happening in China?

Can they identify a couple of Chinese automaker brands?

Are there any worries and concerns when it comes to,

if we have Chinese vehicles on sale

in the United States driving on our roads,

are there any woes about privacy

or national security risk?

So we kind of like really zoom in on all of that

just to see if people's perceptions

are changing with every year.

We have a new administration in the White House right now.

So that's definitely come into effect

because we've seen all the tariff chaos

and the EV market itself having been flowing.

So it's been interesting just to see

this data change from year over year.

So the biggest trend that we noticed

looking at our data from 2024

into more of our more recent 2025 study

is that we're seeing awareness

as well as consideration for Chinese brands

climb quite significantly year over year.

So last year of the about,

I think last year we had about 16,000 people

that we talked to, 40% of them, 41% of them told us,

yes, I would consider buying a vehicle

from a Chinese brand.

This year, that jumped 10%

and more than half of the American car buyers

that we talked to this year

would consider buying a vehicle from a Chinese brand.

So that's like Huawei, Xiaomi, BYU,

Geely, Neo, Zeke, all those brands.

So we're seeing consideration jump

as well as familiarity.

We saw familiarity go from 53% of people last year

up to now 65% of American consumers

are now familiar with Chinese automakers,

which I think is just absolutely

a staggering thing to look at.

How did that familiarity increase?

So I think a lot of it comes from the fact

that you're just seeing more attention

being given to these vehicles.

Whether you're in the automotive space

or the traditional media space,

we're seeing a lot of coverage of Chinese vehicles.

I feel like every time I granted,

I'm sure my algorithms for Instagram

and Blue Sky and Facebook are heavily automotive leaning,

but I talked to people that aren't even dialed in

with the auto space

and they're hearing about Chinese cars,

they're reading about Chinese cars,

they're seeing videos and photos of Chinese cars.

So I think a big increase in coverage

just because the products that these Chinese automakers

are designing and building and selling over there

are just getting more and more enticing.

That's a big thing,

but I also think that we're starting to see

these Chinese automakers break way into the European market.

So when you have Americans going overseas to Europe

on vacation or for work,

they're getting to see and experience

some of these Chinese vehicles firsthand,

obviously without having to go all the way over

to the China market itself.

When I was in Finland,

I spent a couple of weeks in Finland this summer,

which was an absolutely incredible country.

I saw a handful of BYDs and it was really,

really pretty cool to see,

scattered a mix to all the Volvo's and Skoda's

and all these other European cars.

You'd see a handful of Chinese vehicles

on sale in Finland,

puttering around Helsinki or throughout the country.

And it's kind of that wow factor,

you go up to it and you're like,

oh wow, this is really, really neat.

People see that, people do that,

they come home, they tell their friends

and that's how like word of mouth spreads.

So I think that's why we saw familiarity

with all these Chinese automakers

jump 12% year over year.

That makes sense.

So we actually talked about this a little bit last year.

I had like this like kind of lingering feeling

of a familiarity.

And I went back and looked through our podcast list

and you and I chatted in July of last year

about it was a slightly different topic,

but it was similar.

It was younger buyers being more open

to buying Chinese cars,

even with the potential privacy concerns

say that one five times fast.

So how much is this particular study

that you just did relate to that one?

So I don't have the exact numbers up in front of me,

but I did peep this a little bit ago.

We did see consideration for Chinese brands

regardless of demographic,

regardless of political identification increase year over year.

So younger buyers are of course,

especially more interested in these Chinese brands

that are familiar with them.

They're more in tune with social media, obviously.

But then your older buyers too,

they're starting to learn about them and read about them.

And we saw a little bit of an increase

in terms of like your, especially your baby boomers,

some of your Gen Xers that, you know,

they are reporting that they are a little bit more familiar

with Chinese brands compared to last year.

I think one other thing to talk about too,

and you know, not to dive too much into politics,

but when we look at the spread,

one thing we do in our research is we ask people

like what political party do you see yourself

identifying with as,

whether it be Democrat, Republican, Green Party, moderate,

and about 40%, it's literally almost a balance mix

between survey takers that are Republican

and survey takers that are Democrats

saying that they would be open to buying a vehicle

from a Chinese automaker.

So I thought that was actually pretty interesting too.

Yeah, don't be too afraid to get political.

I mean, I know we want to avoid the political mudsling

and the bad discourse that doesn't do anyone any good,

but we also don't want to be scared of facts,

factual facts or how politics affects things

and obviously a different administration in the White House

since we last chatted makes a difference

and that would be the same if Harris had won.

The differences might be not the same,

but obviously even if Biden had run

for a second term and won, there might be differences.

So we got to take that in, excuse me,

take whoever is in the White House into account

when it comes to Chinese market and geopolitics,

and the Chinese market is not the Canadian market, right?

There's a lot of geopolitical stuff going on

when it comes to, even if we didn't have

the tariffs situation, which obviously we do,

if we didn't have tariffs, there'd be a lot going on

with the way China basically,

I'm not sure what the word is.

I think there is a word for this,

but China basically kind of controls their companies.

There's lots of a free market.

The government is way more involved.

That's true.

Yeah, there's a word for it,

even the word or phrase,

and the phrase is escaping my mind right now,

but there's definitely a difference

between Chinese regulations and American regulations

and how Chinese government is involved

in Chinese companies and how they build their cars

and I'm sure that plays a part.

So don't be afraid to get geopolitical.

You probably know a lot more about it than I do.

I only know the basics at best.

So we touched on it earlier,

but it's been in the news again lately,

tariffs and Trump had mentioned he wanted to go 100%

on top of whatever was already there.

Then I read something this morning

that he's never really confirmed that,

that he was just, he said that,

but it hasn't really been confirmed or enacted yet.

And another member of his administration

sort of walked it back at least for the moment.

So obviously tariffs are constantly changing

by the time this goes live.

They may have changed again.

So how is that affecting everything

in terms of the Chinese market and it's growth

and how do I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this?

It's inroads into the United States

or so far, or so far, lack thereof.

That's a lot to say, sorry.

No, no, no, I see your point.

So obviously there are no Chinese brand vehicles

on sale here in the United States right now.

I mean, BYD has electric buses of course,

but in terms of like consumer-focused products

like your everyday sedans, crossovers and whatnot,

there aren't vehicles here sold by BYD

or Cherry or Neo or Zeke or,

but that's even with these very, very heightened tariffs,

you might see some Chinese automakers slow or stall

or even cancel their plans to enter the US marketplace,

but I still think that there is such a potential

to sell their products here that I think

that you are still gonna see some of these Chinese

automakers do whatever they can to enter the US market,

whether that be through Mexico or,

I know I read recently that like Canada

is even considering removing their,

I think they have 100% tariff on Chinese EVs

or Chinese vehicles as well,

but they're talking about removing that tariff

so that Chinese vehicles can come into the Canadian market.

I think if that happens,

that's gonna be a huge wake-up call

and you're gonna see even greater awareness

and consideration for Chinese vehicles

because we'll probably start to see them a lot more

here in the United States.

I think that, and I'm not trying to,

I mean, I guess first of all,

I'm not shilling for China.

I think that's like a very common thing

that people say anytime a reporter

or an analyst talks about Chinese vehicles

because like, yeah, they are pretty fantastic,

but they do have their issues

and questions of transparency,

both with the automakers

and some of the safety and quality concerns.

They're not all rosy posy,

but I mean, in terms of innovation and technology

and powertrain development,

I mean, it's like a night and day difference

compared to our products.

And I think that the problem with these tariffs

is that it really kind of creates

this like protectionist mindset.

And I think that, yes, you can have that to an extent,

but like, I would love to see these tariffs dropped

or even eliminated

and have some of these Chinese automakers

selling their stuff here in the United States

so that we can see like Ford and GM

like really ramp up their competitiveness

and really deliver products

that are gonna be as intriguing

and as enticing as these Chinese vehicles are.

So I get the idea behind some of the tariffs.

I think the paranoia behind national security

is kind of overhyped.

I mean, that's another thing

that's worth talking about too.

It was like, we saw amidst the fact

that more American consumers,

they're becoming more considerate

of buying a vehicle from a Chinese brand.

They're becoming more aware of Chinese automakers.

On the other side of the spectrum though, Tim,

we saw concerns about privacy and national security fall.

So we're starting to see some of those like,

fears about Chinese vehicles if they were here

or are they collecting our data?

Oh, are they sending it all back to China?

Consumers aren't really prioritizing

that much of a scare of it anymore.

We're starting to see that kind of subside.

I mean, we saw that drop year over year

and I'm sure we're gonna continue to see that in the future.

That was a long way of answering your tariff question,

I just realized.

No, that's fine.

Long answers are more than welcome

and often appreciated.

You may have touched on it a little bit already.

If you did, I apologize for not quite catching it,

but what is exactly, how do I phrase this?

Cause it's something that's confused me for a little bit.

Why exactly or what exactly are Chinese automakers

doing to make their cars,

especially electric vehicles, so much better

than what you've seen from America,

Europe and the other parts of Asia?

Well, I think the big thing,

I mean, the immediate thing that comes to mind

is just like figuring out how to, I mean,

I guess like if I wanna relate it back to our US market,

especially in terms of the news that we saw

with Jeep this week is China has clean energy vehicles.

So besides EVs, they've really done an exceptional job

with plug-in hybrids and what we call E-Rabs

or extended range electric vehicles.

So these are vehicles that, you know,

you've got a gas engine back up,

but the battery pack and the electric drive motors

are the primary propulsion

for the wheels of the vehicle itself.

So, you know, most plug-in hybrids

that are sold here in the United States,

you know, they granted they're getting a lot better.

I was just in a Range Rover plug-in hybrid

that had, you know, 60 miles of electric only range,

which is phenomenal.

China for years now has been coming out

with these plug-in hybrids and E-Rabs

that offer massive amounts of range

with a gas backup engine at costs

that are, you know, relatively affordable.

And they've really also done a good job too of,

I mean, like Chevy's got this, the new Bolt coming out

or I guess the revamp Bolt,

which I'm really excited about.

I think that's going to be a great product.

Definitely was a big mistake of, you know,

pulling it from the market for a couple of years,

but, you know, you look at that

and they're touting the fact that it's got an MSRP

like around $30,000, a little bit less or more than that.

You know, China has been selling EVs

for people that want them for half that for years now.

They've just been able to, you know,

whether it be the labor costs

or like the development costs

or the fact that, you know,

a lot of their stuff is like vertically integrated

into some of these automakers, you know,

they don't have to outsource a lot.

They're able to develop these EVs

with promising range, really, really quick charging speeds.

I mean, they have some EVs over there

that have megawatt charging.

So I mean, you literally get like 1,000 kilowatts

in terms of charging speed

when you're plugged into some of these,

which is just ridiculous.

They have battery swapping.

I mean, you know, we,

I don't think it's any secret that the US automakers are,

I still think they're kings

when it comes to like ice propulsion, diesel propulsion.

But when you look at like the electrification space,

I mean, China has just blown past us,

blown past the Europeans, even some of the Koreans

and they're just doing it at scales

that are unheard of and it costs that are unheard of too.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Is there anything in the manufacturing side

that China's doing that we can't or don't do?

Well, I mean, we're getting there

in terms of like battery sourcing,

you know, I think a lot of the big thing right now

is just like, you know, a lot of these Chinese automakers

are, they're able to source their battery components

and the minerals and everything

from, you know, right there on that side of the world

whereas for a lot of our EVs

that are built and sold here,

we're getting those components from other places

and we have to ship them in.

So that adds extra cost, that adds extra time.

And, you know, just in terms of like

different battery chemistry types,

like China's like a little bit more ahead of the game

on that than some of our automakers, we're getting there.

I mean, I'm sure that when it comes to like

solid state batteries, Chinese automakers

are gonna be a little bit ahead of the game

that than US automakers

and, you know, European and Japanese automakers.

So they, I think really, they have,

I think just like a very good, like a geography-based advantage

in the fact that they can get everything

from that corner of the world

whereas we are still in the midst of shipping it in for it.

That makes sense.

Yeah, so what else has really stuck out to you

about Chinese vehicles and the Chinese market

and anything else that we're kind of just,

you know, sort of overall hitting today?

Yeah, I think like, you know, just in terms of,

just in terms of like styling,

I think styling has really, you know, just,

it's been striking.

I mean, some of these like Xiaomi's like SE7

as a gorgeous vehicle, I think they've really,

you know, if you rewind Tim back 15, 10, 15, 20 years ago

a lot of these like Chinese cars that we were seeing,

you know, before EVs kind of took off,

they were almost like kind of copycats and clones of-

Don't be afraid to say it.

They were basically ripoffs of-

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They were ripoffs.

They were Timu copycats, essentially,

like, you know, crap you'd find on Timu,

but I think that, you know, some of these,

and I don't know what it is.

I don't know if, and I know that some of these

Chinese automakers, they're pulling designers

from other automakers that used to be there,

but I think styling in terms of like just materials

and the layouts and the exterior silhouettes

and like the designs of some of these fashions

on some of these vehicles,

they're, I feel like they're just being more and more,

what's the word I wanna use?

Like daring than some of the US automakers.

I mean, it's really just incredible.

I mean, I can't remember what it was.

I think there's a, I think it's BYD,

but there's this, I'd have to look it up and find it,

but there's an electric station wagon.

I think it's, I think it's, maybe it's BYD,

maybe it's Julie that, I mean,

I like salivated over when I first saw photos of it.

And I, but again, that's also because like,

they're designing these vehicles from the ground up

to be EVs, so they have a lot more flexibility

and the development time of some

of these Chinese vehicles too.

I mean, it takes years for most established

Western automakers to, you know,

get approved to design a vehicle,

pen it out, figure out the parts,

figure out the design of it, get it approved.

I mean, it's such a long, you know, cycle,

five, six years, seven years to design a vehicle

and get it into production,

whereas like the Chinese are doing it in half that time.

But yeah, I don't know.

So I think that, but then I also think like,

just in terms of like features too.

I mean, like I am an absolute total nerd

when it comes to like cool features in vehicles.

And, you know, there's,

there's a couple of really good YouTube channels

that cover the Chinese auto scene.

I know one of them is wheels boy Ethan, he just, you know,

he does these phenomenal reviews of Chinese vehicles.

And every time I'm watching these videos,

I'm just like, why don't we have that in the United States

or why doesn't Mercedes do that

or why doesn't Ford do that?

So just that fresh mindset.

And then I mean, obviously to software

we could get into a whole conversation about software

but I don't want to take up too much of our time.

Yeah, no, if you have,

if you want to touch on it briefly

we'd have a few minutes left.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think like software

is also the big thing.

I mean, a lot of these Chinese automakers are,

you know, they're designing their vehicles.

It kind of going back to what I was saying about how like

everything is like so like vertically integrated.

Like they can, they can, you know,

get everything done really quick

in terms of like the infotainment of the software.

But then Chinese automakers are not afraid

to tap existing software companies.

You know, it's not like, you know

we've seen this whole like debacle with Volkswagen

with like the Karyad and, you know

that whole project failing.

And then now they're trying to team up with Rivian

but then I just read that Rivian is having

a little bit of a headbutting with Volkswagen

over software updates.

It's like when you have some of these Chinese automakers

that are, you know, okay, here's our vehicle.

Here's our infotainment system.

Let's find a software company

to actually design the infotainment in the interface

and, you know, the UX part of it.

It's like a night and day difference.

I mean, like you go to CES

and you sit in some of these Chinese vehicles

and you play around with the software

and then you get back in your rental car,

you get back home to the airport

and you get back in your own car

and you're like, wow, I feel like

we're like 30 years behind, you know

like you've got these companies like Qualcomm, you know

who are, you know, they're teaming up

with like Mercedes-Benz to finally start putting

like their Snapdragon like, you know

tech stack into their vehicle.

So I mean, we're seeing more of these big legacy automakers

finally connect with some of these dedicated

hardcore software companies

to really improve that experience

like in the vehicle itself

when you're playing around on the infotainment screen.

So that's something I think

that China has been a master at for years.

You know, I mean, again, like I'm not a,

I'm not a shield for China, but I mean

I've got a 16 year old Subaru, but like

go on YouTube and just watch any video

of a Chinese EV or Chinese vehicles infotainment system

and software and then go watch a video showing

say a new Suburban or a new Toyota BZ software.

I mean, it's a day difference.

Yeah, no one will accuse you being a shield for China

just because you're saying they're doing amazing things.

I think it's just being objective and seeing the reality

and something that people struggle with these days

I think you, whatever,

I don't want to get too deep into political philosophy,

but whenever people say something positive

about some entity that is often considered negative,

people think, oh, you're a shield.

Well, no, it's just telling the truth.

Yeah.

Because of the way too.

You sometimes say something negative

about something that many people can perceive

in a positive way and you know,

oh, you're just a, you know, a hater.

You know, so if you, China's a rival of us

of the US and it's also not a democratic society.

It's not necessarily a free society.

So it upsets a lot of people

across the political spectrum.

Right.

And so when you say, oh, China's doing X, Y, Z thing

and it's really good.

Objectively, people are gonna say, oh, you're a shield.

And if you say, oh, America's not doing this,

America's supposed to be the good guys.

So people are like, oh, I hate America.

Oh, no, no.

You're telling the truth.

And the truth is that American car companies,

Japanese car companies, Korean car companies

and European car companies

have to worry about China right now.

And it's because China's doing some things,

excuse me, China's doing some things

that just the others probably can compete with.

But at the moment,

they look like they're a little bit behind.

Well, yeah.

And I want the best for our automakers.

I mean, like you, a lot of automakers right now,

you know, both European, Japanese, Korean, American are,

I mean, they've got some really good kick-ass products.

But those kick-ass products can be made even better,

you know, if they opened up their minds a little bit

to what's going on in the China space.

You know, I look at the, you know,

like look at like Cadillac's Lyric, for example,

like that's a fantastic EV,

hugely impressed with the Cadillac Lyric.

And, you know, their software is good,

but it's still not as great as like something

you'd find in like a Geely

or like a Zeekr product in China.

You know, so like we're getting there,

but it's like, you know, some of these automakers

that have these fantastic products,

I'm just like, oh, come on guys, like you can do it.

Like just take that extra step,

take that extra leap of faith

and like, you know, really, you know,

dive into innovation and engagement

with some of these vehicles.

What do you think it would take

for American companies, European?

What are they missing?

Is it just investment with cash?

Is it brain power?

Why are they not doing what you suggested?

Well, I don't necessarily know

if it's investment with cash, maybe.

I mean, obviously a lot of automakers

have lost, you know, cuckoo amounts of money

with the whole EV product strategy

is changing over the past year,

but I think a lot of it is just mindset, you know?

Like some automakers just get so stuck in their way

in terms of this is the way we've always done it,

you know, we're okay, you know,

maybe expanding and going outside of the box

a little bit, but we still want to keep it all in house,

you know, like, you know, I think,

I honestly think like software is the big one.

Like we've obviously seen with automakers, you know,

that decide to collaborate and team up

with either other automakers

who have really, really good software

or with dedicated software development companies

to integrate that into their vehicle.

Like that UX and UI experience in turn

becomes a lot better, a lot more modern,

a lot quicker, a lot more engaging.

But you've still got automakers

that like just don't really want to do that, you know?

I was in a Land Rover recently

and like the Pivi Pro infotainment,

that's, you know, Jaguar Land Rover's own thing.

It works, but you know, in a vehicle

that's over $100,000, it's slow,

it's not the most user friendly,

you know, it just feels old, you know,

why do I have to do four steps

to turn on the heated seats or the HVAC,

like why can't it just be like one little button

on the screen that's saved as a shortcut?

I mean, I don't want automakers to get complacent

and be like, okay, our sales numbers are good,

our products are good, we're just gonna keep cruising along

at this pace that we are

while the rest of the world takes off and pushes ahead.

Yeah, and I think to the EV thing is important.

I'm not into EV Bay, any structure imagination effect,

I think automakers are gonna have to, excuse me,

start building more and more,

but I think a lot of automakers went all in on EVs

as opposed to saying, let's take our time

and do a little bit of EV, maybe a little bit of hybrid,

a little bit of plug-in hybrid,

a little bit just getting internal combustion engine,

yeah, as fuel efficient as it could possibly be

and they left themselves a little flat-footed

when the market changes, when the political winds change,

when a new administration comes in

and pulls back on stricter regulations

and pulls back on the EV tax credit.

And then obviously, I think too,

the infrastructure hasn't kept up with the cars,

charging infrastructure was what I'm talking about

and on top of that, so now we're at a point

where some of these governments are saying,

oh, we want all EV Bay 2030 or 2035,

so I can see it's not gonna be possible.

So automakers are like, oh, well, I was aiming

for this goal because that's what the government

of California want under the government of whatever country.

So I think the automakers too, probably needed to be,

and this is where Toyota got some flak

for being too slow to go electric,

but at the end of the day, I think worked out for them.

They were cautious without being overly cautious

and they weren't like anti-electric,

they're still producing electric vehicles, they sold.

A lot more EVs planned, they were just hedging their bets

and a lot of automakers, it's almost like going to a casino

or embedding on a few things

and Toyota bet a little bit on everything,

whereas every other automaker bet on one or two things.

So Toyota had a little more leeway.

Yeah, so with that, we only have a couple of minutes left.

Is there anything else you wanna talk about

on the subject before we wrap for today?

No, I think that's probably the gist of it.

I mean, I think that it's gonna be interesting

just to see what happens with Canada

if they do decide to remove that tariff

on Chinese vehicles.

That I think is gonna be something

I'm gonna be closely watching.

And yeah, I mean, I think it's just the changing

of the data that we saw a year from year,

there's so much unfortunate negative press

and connotation and perception of China

with some of the big mainstream media

and like the administration,

but it's just interesting to see the fact

that despite all of that, American choppers are,

they're not asleep, they're paying attention

to what's going on in China, it's exciting them,

and as a result of that,

we're seeing like that awareness and consideration grow

and some of those like fears of like,

oh, well, what if that car is gonna record us

and send it back to China?

Some of those like national security

and privacy concerns fall at the same time.

So yeah, it's just, it's really gonna be interesting.

I'm especially curious to see what happens

at CES this year.

I think that's gonna be, I always recommend

if you're in the auto industry

or if you're in any other kind of tech focused industry,

that is the show to be at in terms of just like innovation

and technology and the Chinese,

the Chinese had a humongous presence

in the auto scene there last year

and I wouldn't be surprised if that's double

or triple the size this coming year.

Yeah, and one thing I think we should talk about too

in the future is CES and related to Chinese automakers.

And also we've talked about it a little bit

and you already touched on it,

I wanna go, the next time you and I chat about China

I wanna go deeper into how the legacy automakers

could respond and improve their vehicles.

Cause one thing that we're always taught in economics

is the competition supposed to at the least in theory

to make existing products stronger.

So, but we also don't have time for that

and we've already touched on it a little bit.

So we can go deeper, but next time.

So Robbie, thank you so much for your time.

It's Robbie to graph manager of product communication

and consumer insights, did I get that correct?

Yep, manager of product and consumer insights

at autopacific.

I was close at autopacific.com analyst website.

So give autopacific a check, a check amount

and you can learn all sorts of things.

And I know not everything you guys do

is available to the public, but some things probably are

and people can learn a little bit

about the automotive industry and sales data

and stuff like we've been talking about

for the past half hour, China

and what's happening with the Chinese market

and how it'll affect automakers going forward.

So, Robbie, thank you so much for your time

and we will go ahead and wrap this segment here

on this week's Truth about Cars podcast.

Thanks a lot Tim, it was a privilege.

Just about every week here on the Truth about Cars podcast

we are talking NASCAR

and just about every week we have Matthew Guy,

T-Tech contributor, extraordinary.

With us, how are you doing today Matthew?

Hi Tim, I'm doing pretty good.

Looking forward to talking about Martinsville.

Yeah, me too, and not just Martinsville

but also previewing the final four championship at Phoenix.

And so that's what I was gonna say

kind of as we set up this conversation.

It's a big week for NASCAR

because it is the final week for the championship.

So, this is our second to last track talk really

of this podcast, everything from here on out,

well from next week out.

So next week we'll talk about Phoenix

and maybe the season in general

depending on how things go at Phoenix.

And then the week following

we'll begin sort of some silly season conversation

and carry that through December

and through the end of the year

and maybe depending on a whole bunch of different factors

depending on how things go with certain things

behind the scenes and kind of bring that into January

and of course Daytona in next year.

I don't even wanna think about that though

because time is flying by.

But let's bring it back to what happened at Martinsville

and then also preview the final four in Phoenix.

So Martinsville, the little paperclip short track.

Matthew, before I throw to you,

let me just sort of set it up.

For those who didn't see the race

or who saw the race

but had a few too many drinks and don't remember,

William Byron had a dominant race.

He led three different times.

He had 304 laps total lead of, I think it was 500.

But the main thing is what he did to Ryan Blaney to win.

Blaney had been driving well

and was in the possible, excuse me,

and a possible position to win.

And then Byron got underneath

in one of the corners and kind of did a little bit

of a pit maneuver almost on Blaney.

Sort of hit him in the left door, the driver's side door

or where a driver's side door would be on mass cars.

Obviously these cars don't have doors.

I think there were about 11 laps left or so, something

like that, or maybe before that,

because there's also a restart where Byron beat Blaney

back to the, or Byron basically beat Blaney

off the restart.

That was about 11 laps to go.

With Martinsville, I always have a hard time

tracking laps because they're so short.

But anyway, Byron kind of bumped Blaney offline,

blew by him and that was all he needed to win

and put himself in the final four of Blaney.

He was in a must win position.

He had to, he had to do, he had to win to advance.

And so yeah, I'm just double checking.

So the restart was with 11 laps to go.

The pass was on lap 456 and Martinsville

is so short that a lap is just a few seconds really.

So that's why they kind of bore together in my mind.

But, and it was in turn one where Byron got him.

So, and Blaney never really had a chance

in the remaining 40 something laps to get at him.

But that was definitely big for Byron.

Not so good for Team Penske,

which is now shut out of the championship four

after winning the last three years.

Lugano got shut out.

So our final four now is Chase Briscoe,

Denny Hamlin, William Byron and Kyle Larson.

And Matthew, before I get anything off my chest

with the race, I wanna hear what you thought

about the race overall, if Byron's move was fair

and anything else you have to add.

Yeah, I think it was fair or fair enough, you know,

especially when you hear people like Blaney himself

saying, I would have done the same thing, right?

To try to get there.

And, you know, Barron had a,

I think that's arguably one of his biggest wins

of his career so far, not in terms of numbers,

in terms of, I think he's had 16 wins right now.

But I, well, maybe in terms of numbers

because it says here that this was the most laps

he's led in a single race in his career.

So maybe it is big for numbers,

but what I mean in terms of being big is just important,

right, getting into the final four.

And he had a really good race overall,

led a ton of laps, swept all the stages.

And, you know, it's just a really, really good,

good race for that 24 team all over.

And then Blaney sort of had the reverse thing going on, right?

He qualified 31st somewhere around there.

He started, it was 30 something, he started, right?

But I mean, the man has, you know,

a couple of too straight, I believe,

Martinsville playoff wins under his belt

and that number 12 car.

So, not surprised to see him make it,

you know, into the top 10 pretty quick

because he knows how to wheel his way around that track.

So that's, I think if Blaney had had a better day

and a better qualifying effort,

we might have seen a different,

we might have seen a different result,

but, you know, maybe not because Byron,

William Byron was just such a dominant force on Sunday

that it would be difficult for anyone to beat him.

And I do think, I do think that, you know,

that move was fine, was fair enough, right?

And then with six drivers going into the race

with, you know, close enough levels of severity

to making the final two playoff spots,

I think we had a decent race and, you know,

in terms of the playoffs,

we'll talk about all that in the off season,

but for the format that we do currently have,

it was a good race.

Yeah, I think I agree with you that the race,

not the race, excuse me, the move was fair enough, right?

I don't love it.

I don't love the idea that a driver can hit another car

and push my position, but it didn't appear to be without,

I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this,

it did not appear to be without,

well, I can't think of the word I'm looking for,

it didn't appear to be out of balance base of the rules.

It appeared to be-

No, it wasn't done with Malus,

with, you know, you didn't ask them

to drill them into the wall, right?

Exactly, yeah, so I don't think it was against the rules

as far as I know, it didn't seem to be avoidable contact

or anything like that.

You know, there's the old rubbing is racing line

from days of thunder, it's a bit frustrating

if you're Ryan Blaney or Ryan Blaney fan, you know,

they have a guy come underneath

and instead of just passing cleanly to bump them,

but again, as far as I could tell, it was legal.

And so you're not breaking,

it's one thing to break a rule.

And now we can always, the way I look at rules

and regulations and in sports

and sometimes in real life too is

there's a difference between a rule

and breaking the rule

and whether the rule makes any sense or not, right?

So long story short, in the stick and ball sports world,

a guy got in trouble a couple of years ago for attending,

he's a college football coach,

he's an assistant coach or low on the line.

He basically was going to other games

and scouting other teams that was against the rules.

And a lot of people were like,

well, how's that against, how's that, you know,

he's just going to the games, how's that a big deal?

It'd be better at disguising your plays and your strategy.

The thing is, whether you think the rule is dumb or not,

he broke the rule.

And to bring it back to racing,

you see that all the time in NASCAR where a guy,

just something and he breaks the rule and you're like,

well, he didn't really do anything unfair or anything bad.

Well, it's just a bad rule.

In this case, it's kind of the opposite.

He didn't break the rules.

The rules are, it appears as far as I could tell

and I don't think I saw anything in the broadcast.

I can't remember what they said in the broadcast.

I'll chop my head,

but it doesn't appear that Byron broke any rules

with what he did.

Like you said, it was not malicious.

It wasn't, he didn't shove it into the wall

or anything like that.

So, but it is, if you're a Blaney fan

and probably a little frustrating

because you're like, well, he didn't have to do that.

He probably could have passed him cleanly, you know,

but it's just a tough thing for Blaney

who had to win in order to advance, you know.

So, overall, I think it was an interesting race.

I always find short track racing to be interesting

because to me, there are battles of attrition

as much as anything else.

Cause a lot of cars get,

a lot of bumping and banging in cars have issues

with whether you get hit a couple of times

and maybe some things damaged

or in Danny Hammond's case, he had an engine failure

which was a big storyline

because he was one of several coyotes to go out

and now that it's a concern for next week

because Hammond is obviously in the final four.

I think the biggest thing too,

and something we've talked about almost all season long now

is just, I think Matthew, you and I discuss this

before the playoffs began

is the impact other drivers have on the playoff drivers.

And it's been interesting that these three,

these final three races have all been won

by a playoff driver.

So that's kind of cool.

But what happens next week

if it's a non-playoff driver winning the race

and you're looking at,

well, who's got the best points in the final four

of Hamlin, Chase Briscoe, Kyle Larson, William Byron?

Is that less interesting?

Is that frustrating?

Is that not fair?

So, I had to explain to somebody this weekend

how the playoff format works.

And this person's like,

well, why are the other drivers competing

if they can't advance?

And to me, it's obvious that they're there

because no one wants to watch only eat cars go around.

Right?

But it is weird.

As you've said before, it's the only other sport

where a team or player or driver

who's not in the playoffs can impact it.

I mean, I guess in golf, I suppose,

there might be some ways in a tournament on a Sunday

where a guy who made the cut

but has no chance of winning

could have maybe affected in a weird way.

But I can't think of any real scenario there either.

No.

So it's, and obviously in every other sport,

if you don't win an advance in your playoffs, you go home.

So it's very, very unique to NASCAR.

And I'm very interested to see how it'll play on Phoenix.

And I'm a little surprised that these past few races

have all been won by a playoff driver.

Yeah, and I think that there's three things

that immediately come to mind.

Number one is having Danny Hamlin into the mix, right?

If Danny wins as a number,

as one of the championship contenders there of the four.

And if something happens, if, so, I mean,

who's there, so there's the 19,

so he's also a part of that team.

Who else is on the team?

20, and the 20 is not.

So what if there's something that happens

between those three cars

that results in the 11 getting the championship

and then the very people who are being NASCAR

suing the owner of 2311 presents him the trophy, right?

Like, I mean, that's...

That's gonna be awkward, yeah.

It's gonna be totally awkward.

And it's not out of the realm of possibility

because Danny Hamlin is an experienced hot shoe.

You know, he's great behind the wheel

in all of these tracks like him or not.

And there's every chance in the world

that he's gonna get the title this weekend, right?

Just the way that the setup is.

So that's something that is always playing on my mind,

like you said, about playoffs

versus we want to be like sticking ball sports,

but then we're not like sticking ball sports

because the non-playoff drivers

are impacting what the playoffs do.

So that's certainly, certainly a little bit different.

Here's something that is completely out of left field.

He was a baseball analogy

since the series went on for 18 innings.

Yeah, let's not talk about the fact

that none of us slept.

We watched that game.

Yes, I'm a little bit tired this morning.

But oftentimes I'll complain about commercials, right?

In the NASCAR.

And I think we all do from time to time.

So this is a stat that came up on jesky.com

and I'm gonna bookmark this

so I can keep coming back to it race after race.

There's only one race left in the season.

So appropriate time to find this

and bookmark it again for February.

But it shows the total minutes of the race broadcast,

the total minutes of traditional commercials

and the total minutes of side-by-side commercials.

Then some other minutiae like about

who was seen most on screen and those types of things.

And with 28 minutes of traditional commercials

and 20 minutes of side-by-side commercials

out of a 203 minute race broadcast

that works out to about 25% of the broadcast

being commercials, just a little bit less

than that actually 23 point something.

And that sounds like a lot

and it seems like a lot when we're watching it.

But when you think about broadcast television,

an hour long show generally has about what?

15 minutes worth of commercials, which is 25%.

So maybe the people in NASCAR

have a bit of a point when they're saying

we don't actually have all that many commercials

even though it feels like it, you guys.

And when they go to commercial

is a completely different thing.

That's something else that has happened

so many times in the past.

You come back from break

and then there's a wreck that you've missed, right?

Or someone has screwed up a pit stop

or something like that,

something big has happened while they're gone.

But those stats are interesting.

As a numbers guy, I like that.

Yeah, I wanna circle back to something you said

before you got into that little tangent,

which was well done by the way.

Yeah, but that was tangent though.

So thanks for bearing with me.

No, no, I think you're right.

And maybe that can be one of our silly season topics

is talk about how broadcasts,

especially since NASCAR is kind of divided

among different networks,

we can talk about the side-by-side

versus the full commercials.

I personally like the full commercials

because it means I can go to the bathroom

not missing something

or get a drink without missing something.

Yes.

But I also know that you miss racing

and sometimes wrecks happen when they're full commercials.

So that's a topic I wanna explore further

with you down the line.

But I wanna circle back to what we kind of started that

with is the unique format of NASCAR playoffs

and how it's the only sport where the outside

where non-playoff competitors are affecting things.

The problem I have,

and I don't love the current format,

I don't hate the current format,

it just is what it is and I'm kind of neutral on it.

The problem I have is what replaces it?

Do you go back to the old system

where every driver in theory would have a shot?

Well, some guys would get too far down on points.

But where you just built up points

over the course of a year

if points are leading a lap or winning the race

or getting a pole position.

And then X amount of drivers would have enough points

going into those final races

to have a chance at winning a championship.

And however many drivers would be,

we'd be close enough to get the maximum amount of points

that you could possibly get.

And then the problem with that is

it can be a little bit boring

because none of the races have,

the stakes aren't quite as high for these,

for the so-called playoff races.

And if some driver dominates early in the year,

it's over because someone won't be able to get,

at some point there won't be enough available points

for the next guy to catch him.

The championship could be determined

before the final weekend in some cases.

So, assuming I'm getting my math right on that,

but I remember correctly that we were tied over years

when the champion was determined,

three or four races left to go.

So, I don't know if that's the best format.

It gives more drivers a chance.

Now, they're still gonna have drivers

who don't get enough points to be in the hunt

and they'll weed themselves out as the season goes.

So, you still have some drama,

or at least the potential for drama,

but again, if someone dominates, that goes away.

So, I don't know.

Having a playoff idea of an elimination bracket

is kind of fun, but at the same time,

like you said, like we've said all year,

outside drivers can affect things.

And it's not just if an outside

non-playoff ever wins a race.

It's how it's if a guy causes a wreck

who's not in the playoffs,

and we've seen it this year.

Oh, absolutely.

Just in the past few weeks,

we've seen guys could take him out.

Byron got in that big wreck with Gilliland at Vegas

and that impacted his chances of moving on.

Now, he ended up winning Martinsville,

so it doesn't matter, but that's an example.

Or was it, I think it was also Vegas

where he made the following week at,

I'm blanking on the track.

The following week after Vegas

when Briscoe was given an assist by his teammate to win,

or maybe it was Hamlin.

But I think it was Briscoe.

He got pushed in the draft.

Talladega, that's where it was, Talladega.

So, and then of course Byron got spun out there

and Byron was in a chance to win that race.

He got spun out.

So if he didn't win Martinsville,

he could have been sitting out on the sideline here.

So, because of the actions of drivers

who weren't in the playoff chase.

So, is that fair or not fair?

Or is it just something that was one more obstacle

to a championship if you are one of the 16 guys

who makes these final 10 races?

And I don't know what the answer is.

I know NASCAR wants to get drama

and that's one reason why we have stage racing too,

to avoid a parade where some guys just out in front

and no one can catch them.

That's the whole reasoning of stage racing, right?

So bring the pack back together two times a race

if one guy is dominating.

Give guys a chance to catch them

on a restart or whatever.

Which is annoying.

Yeah, I know you're not a fan of stage racing.

I still don't know if I like it or not.

I probably lean towards not liking it,

but I've kind of gotten used to it.

You know, it's all about,

you know, they want to put a good show on for fans

and to make things fair for every competitor

and give guys a shot.

Particularly guys who might not have a chance otherwise.

Maybe their car's not fast enough.

If your car's not fast enough,

but you can maybe beat a guy in stage three

and then there's a wreck

and all of a sudden you're in the right spot.

Maybe you get a win, right?

So I understand they're trying to keep the best drivers

from dominating and give the back markers

and the mid-pack guys a shot.

It gives the fans more to cheer for

and more drama and more intrigue.

But is it too contrived?

Also, does it take away from organically,

from the sport organically going a certain way?

And all sports have to answer that question, right?

Obviously, baseball implemented a clock

in the past couple of years

because the games were taking too long.

So they're trying to make the games go faster

so fans can enjoy the game.

But that affects strategy of course, right?

Everything, every sport, when they set rules,

those rules are set for fairness, safety

and entertainment in some order.

And NASCAR is no different.

Nor is IndyCar or F1, really.

We just happen to focus on NASCAR here.

So to me, you know,

that's a long way of saying that,

I understand when NASCAR's trying to do with the playoffs,

I just don't know if it's the best system,

I don't know what would replace it.

And I like the way you put it, that, you know,

the decisions are made for,

what was his safety and something else in entertainment?

To me, and this is just my opinion,

but to me, all sports, when they set up rules,

it's a combination of safety, entertainment,

and safety applies in all sports

because, you know, even obviously,

people get hurt in football or whatever.

It's not just the safety of racing,

but it's safety, fairness and entertainment.

Fairness, that's what, and you're right.

I mean, that's a really good way of framing it.

And the thing, and that's where I think this current,

scheme, this current point system falls flat,

the fairness part, because if you have someone

who wins the Daytona 500,

they can take a breather for the next 26 races, right?

Because they know that they're into the playoffs

and the drama, if NASCAR wants drama,

I mean, look back to some of the times in the 90s

when you would have, and before the chase in the 2000s,

when a bad day would be extremely stressful

because if someone's leading the points

and they finish 40th, that is a huge hit on points

and everyone else starts to catch up to them.

So they know they've got to go hard the next week

in order to either increase their lead

or at least stem the tide of losses

from blowing an engine and finishing 40th

sometime back in March.

I mean, we can point to all kinds of examples

back in those days when one race made the difference

towards the end of the year.

So I think if fairness is one of the pillars

and I think it should be, then this system fails

on that at least to some degree.

The argument always is, well, everyone's playing

with the same set of rules, that's true.

And that's why people make the decisions

and teams make the decisions that they do out there

on the track because they're doing so within the sandbox

that they are playing right now.

But next year, I mean, I saw a comment,

I don't remember who it was,

might have been Jeff Buck or someone online,

said that this could very well be the last time

that Martinsville plays kingmaker

in terms of sending the final four to the playoffs

because there is a very good chance

that even if we do still have playoffs next year,

it won't be a one race winner take all.

It will be a longer stretch of three or four races,

which I think is a good step in the right direction

because if Denny and William and Kyle,

if the 11, 24 and five get winded up

in the first turn of lap one, chaos ensues,

and then the 19 is the only one left,

then that's it, right?

You know, that was caused by another car,

say the 77 or whoever, you know,

it caught up with someone else's wreck.

That's, that fails on the fairness pillar.

So I like the way that you framed that up.

We got to write that down and put that into it.

It's pretty easy to remember, I think,

but yeah, we'll put it down.

But I think I do agree with you a little bit there.

Like, there is some, the current system is not,

the old system wasn't super fair either.

The point to,

Yeah, I don't think the system was totally fair.

I'm not sure which one was more unfair,

but you're right that there is some unfairness now.

And unfortunately, we only have a couple minutes left.

So we'll have to table this discussion,

but I think we could do a whole segment

during our silly season episodes about the playoffs system.

We spent like five or 10 minutes on them already

and we could probably do the entire 25 minutes

or whatever it is we typically do.

So yeah, I tend to agree with you

that there is a little bit of an element of unfairness.

I just don't know if it's,

if the old system was any, was that even more fair?

Any better.

I think in some ways it was a little more fair,

but probably a little bit less entertaining.

But even then, like you said,

in the current system, if you win the Daytona 500,

excuse me, you know you're a playoff driver

and you know you can kind of not win again

and not have a great point season

and still be in the playoffs come September

when the playoffs begin.

In the old system, you would have to work harder.

Even if you won the Daytona 500,

you'd have to work harder longer

to have a shot at the championship.

But again, if you have some bad luck,

some do not finishes, whether the crashes are mechanical

or some wrecks that put you at the back of the pack,

you could still find yourself way out of the playoffs

after through the year.

Or vice versa, if you win 34 races early,

you could have such a big point lead

that you could kind of coast.

So the old system wasn't exactly perfect either.

So we'll get to that further in the future.

We didn't even have a chance to preview this week, Phoenix,

but I think it's pretty self-explanatory.

We have the four drivers,

we have an intermediate track,

a mile and a half should be good weather

because it's the desert in November.

Yeah, so that's a brief 30-second preview of the race.

We just don't have time to get too much into it,

but that's okay because we'll have plenty to say about it

after the fact next week.

So with that in mind, Matthew,

thank you again for your time this week's NASCAR segment

on the Truth About Cars podcast.

Always enjoyable, Tim, thanks a million.

That's all for this week's Truth About Cars podcast.

You can find us wherever you get your podcasts

or at ttac.com or the Truth About Cars, allspulledout.com.

We thank Robert DeGraph and Matthew for their time

and we thank Matt Poskey for editing.

Most of all, we thank you for listening.

We'll see you next time.

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