How to appraise a car like a chassis engineer #278
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Term
chassis engineer
A chassis engineer works on the parts of a car that hold everything together, like the frame and suspension. They make sure the car drives smoothly and feels good to ride in.
Term
vehicle dynamicist
A vehicle dynamicist studies how cars move and handle while driving. They work to make cars safer and more enjoyable to drive by improving how they respond to steering and bumps in the road.
Car
Alpine A110S
Car
Alpine A290
The Alpine A290 is a newer sporty car from Alpine that is designed to be fun to drive and more affordable than some of their other models. It continues the brand's tradition of making exciting cars.
Term
vehicle dynamics
Vehicle dynamics is about how cars move and handle on the road. It looks at things like how stable a car is when turning or how smooth the ride feels.
Concept
JLR
JLR is short for Jaguar Land Rover, a company that makes luxury cars and SUVs. They are known for high-performance vehicles and have a special division that focuses on creating even more powerful and unique models.
Term
SVO
SVO means Special Vehicle Operations, which is a part of Jaguar Land Rover that makes special, high-performance cars. They focus on creating unique and powerful versions of their vehicles.
Term
Project 7
Project 7 is a special version of the Jaguar F-Type sports car. It was made to celebrate Jaguar's racing history and has unique features that make it stand out from regular models.
Term
kilos
Kilos is a way to measure weight, like pounds. It's used in many places to say how heavy something is, including cars.
Car
Cayman
The Cayman is a type of sports car made by Porsche. It's known for being fun to drive and has a good balance, making it popular among car enthusiasts.
Term
lightweight car
A lightweight car is simply a car that weighs less than others. This can make it faster and more efficient because it doesn't need as much power to move.
Car
Renault 5
The Renault 5 is a small car made by the French company Renault. It was popular in the 1970s and 1980s for being easy to drive and park.
Term
torque steer
Torque steer happens when a car with front-wheel drive pulls to one side when you accelerate. It's common in powerful cars because the engine's power can affect how the wheels turn.
Company
Jaguar Land Rover
Jaguar Land Rover is a company that makes high-end cars. Jaguar is known for fast and stylish cars, while Land Rover makes tough and capable SUVs for off-road driving.
Term
understeer
Understeer happens when a car doesn't turn as much as you want it to, making it feel like it's sliding forward instead of going around a corner.
Term
handling
Handling is how a car reacts when you turn the steering wheel or press the brakes. Good handling means the car does what you expect it to do, like turning smoothly or stopping quickly.
Term
oversteer
Oversteer is when the back of the car swings out during a turn, making it feel like the car is turning too much. It can be tricky to handle if you're not used to it.
Term
linearity
Linearity means how smoothly and predictably a car responds when you turn the steering wheel. If a car is linear, it feels easier to control, especially when going around corners.
Concept
Autobahn
The Autobahn is a famous highway in Germany where cars can go really fast, sometimes without any speed limits. It's a place where drivers can experience the full power of their cars.
Term
20 miles an hour
20 miles an hour is a slow speed that can help you understand how a car handles. If a car feels good at this speed, it might feel good at faster speeds too.
Car
Land Rover Discovery 5
The Land Rover Discovery 5 is a high-end SUV that can handle rough terrains while keeping passengers comfortable. It's great for both city driving and outdoor adventures.
Car
Land Defenders
The Land Rover Defender is a tough vehicle built for off-roading. It's famous for being able to handle rough conditions and is loved by people who enjoy outdoor adventures.
Car
Land Rover Range Rover Sport
The Range Rover Sport is a luxury SUV that is designed for both comfort and performance. It can handle off-road conditions while also providing a sporty driving experience.
Car
Panda 100 HP
The Panda 100 HP is a small car from Fiat that is designed to be fun to drive while still being practical.
Car
Lotus Elise
The Lotus Elise is a small sports car that is very light and fun to drive. It's designed to give you a great feeling when you're behind the wheel.
Car
Fiat Ritmo
The Fiat Ritmo is a small car that was made a long time ago, and it was popular for being practical and affordable. It's remembered fondly by fans because it had a unique look and was fun to drive. People might talk about it to share memories or discuss its place in car history.
Car
Land Rover Range Rover Sport SVR
The Range Rover Sport SVR is a fancy SUV that can go off-road but also drives really fast and handles well like a sports car. It's designed for people who want a luxury vehicle that can do both everyday driving and adventurous trips. The podcast might be comparing it to other similar cars to highlight its strengths.
Car
Jaguar Fpace Svr
The F-Pace SVR is a sporty version of Jaguar's F-Pace SUV, designed to be fast and fun to drive while still being practical for everyday use. It's a great choice for those who want a mix of performance and utility.
Car
Range Rover SVR
The Range Rover SVR is a special version of the Range Rover that is built for speed and performance. It has a strong engine and is designed to handle well on the road while still being able to go off-road.
Term
power and torque
Power is how fast an engine can work, while torque is how strong it is. Torque helps a car speed up quickly and pull heavy things. Both are important for how a car drives.
Car
Porsche 911 GT3
The Porsche 911 GT3 is a super sporty version of the regular 911 car, designed for people who love to drive fast and enjoy sharp handling. It's known for being very fun to drive on race tracks and has been updated to be even better than before. People talk about it because it's one of the best sports cars out there.
Term
manual gearbox
A manual gearbox is a type of car transmission where you have to change gears yourself using a stick and a pedal. It gives you more control over how the car drives.
Term
four-wheel steering
Four-wheel steering means that not just the front wheels but also the back wheels can turn. This helps the car turn better and stay stable when driving fast.
Term
active roll bars
Active roll bars are parts of the car's suspension that can change how stiff they are while driving. This helps the car stay flat and stable when turning.
Term
shock absorber systems
Shock absorber systems help make the ride smoother by reducing bumps and vibrations from the road. Some can change how they work depending on how you're driving.
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Welcome back to the Intercooler podcast, everybody.
The podcast powered by car finance specialist JBR Capital.
This is episode 278 with Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel.
We've got a guest in the studio today, David Poock.
Hello, David Poock.
Hello.
Welcome to our podcast studio.
Thanks for coming in.
David Poock, that name isn't going to be familiar to a lot of people listening to
this.
Your work will be.
You are a chassis engineer, a ride and handling engineer.
Those are the words you would use, or would you say something a little different?
Vehicle dynamicist is how we refer to ourselves.
Vehicle dynamicist.
Wow.
Okay.
And what I want to do in this episode is find out a little bit more about you, but also discuss
the ways in which engineers appraise cars, assess cars, and see how that compares to
how journalists appraise cars.
I know Andrew's a bit nervous about this one.
You're worried that we're going to come out of this looking like a bunch of fly-by-night
idiots, aren't you?
I thought it had occurred.
Yes.
Okay.
Well, largely because we are.
It's a problem, isn't it?
So, David, people might well be aware of the work that you do with Alpenes these days.
With Life 110, your Alpen tuning company.
You've done a lot of tuning work on A110s and now the A290.
I think you've recently taken delivery of your A290 and you're sort of working out
what you can do with it.
That's right.
Yeah.
So I've only had about four weeks.
I set up Life 110 2019 and it's kind of evolved into what it is by, not by accident, but not
by really knowing what I was doing to a certain degree.
Because my background before that is vehicle dynamicists, this is said.
So I did that since university and probably before.
So actual vehicle development and evaluation that we'll talk about, but the science
behind how it makes the carbon.
Just before we do that, I'm really interested by, you see, you decide to set up this business
and the focus of this business is the A110.
And I'm just really interested in why you chose that car.
Because to us, if there was a car which really didn't need an awful lot of improving,
the only 10 out of 10 car we've ever had on the intercooler.
And yet you chose that car.
Was there something about that car which you just thought, well, it's fine, but
I can see how it could be a whole lot better.
I would not say it was that strategic.
No, I bought the car because it was actually because of Harry Metcalf, funnily enough.
So I was working with Harry from an SVO perspective.
You were at JLR for a long time.
That's right. JLR for 19 years.
And so we were doing high performance SVO, you know, JLR products.
And the lightest of that was 1750 kilos.
And that would have been what?
Project 7.
Project 7 was actually, yeah, you're right, Project 7 is slightly lighter.
So I was sitting in the canteen with Harry and he said,
oh, have you driven an A110?
Is that the other?
And I was like, no, it had kind of slightly passed me by at launch.
And he said, oh, I weighed it and it's like 1,100 kilos.
And I was like, you know, how have they done that?
Because we were weighing Caimans at 1450 kilos.
Yes.
So I became sort of hooked by it at that point.
And then I wanted to know more.
So because I was leaving JLR anyway,
I decided I had to have one just to understand what it was
and what it meant to be a lightweight car and how they'd done it.
So I bought one without driving it.
I just bought it.
And I had one eye on could this be a business opportunity
or not, you know, because I had a my own business itched.
I wanted to scratch.
So I drove it for the first time, having already bought it.
And I remember driving it down the motorway
after about 20 miles thinking, hmm, I think that there's
something I can do with the geometry to improve steering
around the center and this, that and the other.
So it was forming in my mind because the beauty of the A110
is the standard car is very, very in a certain place.
You know, for a sports car is at one end of the spectrum,
isn't it? Yes, I would say.
So anything I do has to move it away from that.
But actually, there's lots and lots of scope to do that.
So the products for it evolved by me owning one
and thinking, how would I make this better?
What would I want to do with it?
So that so that car became your test bed presumably.
Yeah, so that original car I still own.
So I bought it with 1,000 miles on the clock
and it's now done 36,000.
So I used it as my every day car for two years.
But also presumably put all the bits on it that came along
and just used it as your development hack.
Yeah, so everything I sell, I've developed through my own cars
because that's just how I used to doing it
in my engineering background.
So it just evolved that way.
And I launched my first product a week into lockdown
or before lockdown.
It was like the worst timing you could possibly imagine.
We did that with a podcast.
We did that with a podcast, yeah.
But it's kind of like people help me understand
what a brand meant and how to grow a brand at the same time
and what it stood for and the rest of it.
And it's grown from there, really.
When I check the classifies for A110s
and I do this a lot, and you read through the adverts,
I swear every other advert says life 110 upgrades,
life 110 gear shift paddles, you know?
Yeah, yeah, I think the market penetration I've got
for the UK has been pretty good, really,
because it's the lonely, what, 1,300 cars?
Yeah, is that what it is?
I think so, I think that kind of volume.
And are you shifting stuff overseas as well?
Yeah, yeah, everywhere, yeah.
So France is the biggest market.
France, for you, France is bigger than the UK.
No, France is the biggest market for Alpine.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
As a percentage terms, it's enormous.
Like it's 75% of the cars they made is still in France.
Is it?
Yeah, it's huge.
And so I sell plenty to France, but per volume of car,
my penetration isn't as good because I'm not French.
You know, there's plenty of people in France
doing a similar thing.
Oh, they're really?
So you're not the only person who is tweaking those cars?
No, I was one of the first.
And I think that the market's kind of grown
as a result of people wanting to tweak their A110s,
actually, I'm surprised.
I think I'll be surprised now how many people
buy the car with a plan to change it slightly.
You know, because when they launched it,
you think it was a purist car where people would buy it
and leave it alone?
Yeah.
And actually a huge percentage tweak them.
People love to fiddle, don't they?
Do you know what?
David Tuig left a comment underneath,
I guess it was his own article.
Remind me who David Tuig is?
The bloke who led the development of the Alpine A110,
one of our writers.
So he wrote a story and in the comments,
he mentioned that he's looking at buying,
and I assume this is out there in the public domain
because he's written it in a comment.
He's looking at buying an A110 and upgrading it himself
and doing all the things
that he wished he could have done back in the day.
There you go.
Which is fascinating.
I can't wait to see if he does do that.
So let's briefly A290.
So you've had it for a few weeks.
Does it feel like an Alpine to you?
So we know it's based on the Renault 5,
that A110 is a bespoke clean sheet sports car.
So it's a very different thing.
So have they managed to give it some sort of alpine-ness?
I think that's a hard sell, a bit of a hard sell.
It's got, I can see where they're going with it
from a hot hatch perspective.
You know, the actual, the ride and handings
is quite well judged, I would say, for a hot hatch.
It's not too soft, but it's not kind of like
overly firm, but it's definitely,
hasn't got the, it's definitely a firmer,
more hot hatch character than any A110 is, for example.
The, in weaknesses, it's steering is its biggest weakness
from my perspective.
So, you know, so, actually I read that Steve wrote
on the app.
Yeah.
You know, so like a talk steer is like bananas.
Like, you know, full throttle out of there,
any kind of junction and the car's wriggling
all over the road.
That's like a, that's interesting.
And then it's the steering's just not quite sharp enough
for what it's trying to be, I don't think.
So you can do something about that?
Yes, but it depends how big it is.
Yeah, so, but you can sharpen up the steering
and far from that inducing more talk steer,
you can actually reduce the talk steer.
Yeah, there.
Yeah.
Do you think there is such a, such a thing?
And anybody who's ever driven a powerful
front-wheel drive car will know what we mean
by a talk steer.
That sort of tugging at the wheel you get
when the front drive shafts,
which are also steering the car,
are kind of like unable to cleanly transmit the power.
Do you think there is ever such a thing
as desirable talk steer?
Because it is at least a form of interaction
between the driver and the car.
If it's gentle and not.
Potentially, as a signature.
Yes.
Of what's happening.
Yeah.
That sort of signal that you're kind of
pushing the car a bit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think you need some of that.
Yeah.
I think it is that it will steer itself
as in how I would describe it.
So you accelerate and the car starts steering itself.
So you try to counteract that and say,
don't do that.
Yes.
And then, but then it does something else.
So you chase it, you know,
and that's the worst.
That's a talk steer or any such behavior
that's worse.
That's like my toddler.
Yeah.
It's the same thing.
Yeah.
So you can't just correct it once
and then it behaves.
It's constantly chasing it all over the place.
Yeah.
So the only way you stop that is
by coming back out of the throttle.
Yeah.
So I've already tweaked the front geometry
to try and kind of like understand
where it's coming from.
So I've made it better.
I know I'm pretty sure I understand
what the root cause is.
And it might be an expensive fix as a part change.
And that might be why Alpine didn't do that.
You know, because they've got to put
a business case together.
Yeah.
So, but it gives me something to do.
And the ride arc is quite high, you know.
So just from a pure hot hatch visual perspective,
I think it will, you know,
ride up down and wheels out.
You've not started marketing any A290 products yet
because you're still going through the car
and figuring out what needs to be done.
That's right.
Yeah.
So I want to, you know,
I don't want to be first to market
for the sake of it.
I want to actually create something
that's a useful upgrade, improvement
that would suit a customer that's living with a car.
So I've had a number of social media messages saying,
what can you do about the talks there?
Have you?
Yeah, straight away.
Interesting.
I've had a few people saying,
well, steering's a bit woolly and disconnected.
What can you do about that?
So I know that that's the Australian way.
I've had a number of people,
which I probably started saying,
I can't believe there's no cup holder.
Yeah.
So that's your big thing at the moment, isn't it?
But it's not necessarily my life expertise
to fix, but it is one of those things
where I've, you know, twice now,
I've like gone on the way to Goodwood.
I was driving the car to Goodwood
really early in the morning.
I thought, oh, I'll just grab a coffee.
And of course, I had to hold it.
Yeah, which is actually dangerous.
You know, in a modern car,
it's a bit of a miss, isn't it?
Definitely.
So you have to, I don't,
there must be a decision process
as to why they did that.
And they've definitely got an A110 style signature
on the center console.
But there is space to do something.
You've just got to decide it's important, I think.
Are you allowed to talk about
the non-alpine work that you do?
Probably not.
Okay, all right.
Well, got to say for that.
Yes, I do consultancy, be economics,
out in the bigger world.
So that was something I didn't intend to do,
but it came along because of a demand.
And then it's sort of like grown
into a bit of a big thing.
Yeah.
So I have to deal with that at the same time at the moment.
Okay, so let's talk about,
let's get stuck into the nitty gritty of all this stuff.
I want to, let's go all the way back.
Let's talk about a rookie engineer out of university.
How does he or she learn to appraise a car?
So you're working for an OEM, Jaguar Land Rover.
Is there a sort of specific process?
Is there a whole?
There's only tuition.
Yeah.
Does only teach you what to do?
So yes, is the answer.
So if you think about it in evaluation terms,
I actually looked up evaluate as a dictionary definition.
And it's to form an opinion and give value,
I think is what it said.
So, you know, it's what's affecting me.
And that's really important
because we're given an opinion
and we're making some judgment.
So when you evaluate a car, that's what we're doing.
We're giving an opinion based on the, you know,
subjective driving or some data or whatever.
And then you're saying, that's good or bad.
What I think I've learned is that
when it comes to vehicle evaluation,
which is a big part of a vehicle dynamicist's job
because that's how you decide what's good and bad.
It's not something that everyone can do, you know,
it is a skill.
So I think that, I think, you know,
by the nature of the job, the three of us do,
it's a skill we have.
Because if we didn't, we wouldn't be able
to do the job we do.
So to evaluate something is like a skill in itself.
And you can teach, you know, quite a lot of that.
And I think you are reliant on some kind of
natural ability or something.
I was gonna ask.
To say, because I've, you know, so leaping forward,
I've tried to train other people, you know,
in terms of vehicle evaluation,
or you work with certain people
and there's definitely, you'll find that
some people are better at it than others.
Yes.
It's just a skill.
So presumably to do it at a properly professional level,
level for a major OEM,
where the conclusions you reach
will make a material difference to the car.
You can't learn that.
You can't learn all of it.
You need to have a certain sensitivity.
I mean, what do you need?
Do you need to be the world's greatest driver
or do you just need to be able to feel what a car is?
What are the, what's the stuff you can't learn
that you still need to be able to do?
I think there's a, it's partly a mindset.
And it's partly as you say, like your feel
or however you're perceiving what's going on.
Some people are better at that than others.
So you find people will want to do the job
and then you'll find people that are naturally good at it
and you might train them up
and then you'll find other people that need more work
but they still are trained
and they get to being a good vehicle evaluator.
And it's something that, if you think about it,
because it's not driving an evaluation
or evaluating a vehicle, two different things.
So you can drive anywhere and think,
I've no idea how I got here or what the car did.
I just got here.
But the flip side of that is that you can evaluate
the cars all the time.
Like you can, you know, sometimes I don't know
if you've ever experienced this where you're, you know,
because you do it so often, I've done it once
where I've taken my own car with an unknown well
and it's full of the family and luggage
and we're going on holiday
and driving down the motorway
and I'm doing this.
What are you doing?
It's like, well, if you noticed how the steering
has changed because of all the mass
and this and that and everyone's looking at you oddly
but it's like one of those things you can't let go.
You can't have the same, I'm exactly the same.
So, but it means that you're constantly
practicing the skill at the same time.
Yeah.
And on that subject of feel, actually,
that's an interesting topic
because I thought the weekend I was working,
not working, so I had a driver using terms
such as I feel the car turns into aggressively,
does enough rotation mid-corner,
understeer and exit, not riding the bumps
well on the rear axle
and they were all described in normal driver language
from a field perspective
but he's talking about a ready-controlled car.
Oh.
So there's no physical connection.
His only observation is eyesight.
So, if you think about it in those terms,
feel is not necessarily like a physical contact
or a movement.
It's like a, you go up 11 and say it's a perception of.
Yeah.
I asked the vehicle to do something and what did it do?
Yeah.
And if you think about it,
a pilot can't fly in the fog without the instruments.
No.
Because you can't.
Yeah.
And if you shut your eyes as a passenger
and you don't know where you've gone,
you could probably have an idea or say,
well, I think you went left and right
and you might have braked.
But actually, you couldn't accurately know where you've gone.
So you're hugely reliant on, you know, eyesight
as part of that evaluation.
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I was once asked by, I think it was an auto car
to write a story.
And it's basically entitled, What is Handling?
And I had to boil it down and boil it down
and boil it down to a sentence.
And I think that sentence in the end went,
the ability of a car to do what its driver
ask it to or expects it to.
Because any deviation from that,
through all those things you're talking about,
you may be telling you to aggressively
or oversteer or understeer or anything else.
If that's not what you're wanting it to do,
then that is adding to your workload.
That is reducing your level of confidence in the car.
And that is, to me at least, degrading the handling.
And is that kind of somewhere near where you'd,
how you'd describe it?
Yeah, I think so.
I think for handling specifically, yeah.
I split them into like what I would call,
just because of terms we used to use at JAL,
a body-induced input and that's an external force.
So you're driving down the road,
ride is external, the car's going over bumps.
It's reacting to.
There's cameras on the road, there's side winds.
So the car is reacting to external forces as one.
And then the other, the flip side is that,
is the car reacting to driver demand.
So the driver's saying, do this,
and the car does, well the output is what you expect.
Because you never say, well I can see the corner,
therefore I'm going to steer 15 degrees on the steering wheel
and assume I'm going to go around the corner.
Your brain doesn't work like that whatsoever.
You steer the amount based on your experience to date,
that means you're going to go around that corner.
You steer, I think I need to steer this much.
And the car doesn't go around the corner
as you expected and you're like,
so you have to adjust mid-corner or all those things.
And that comes back to exactly what you said.
I think I would describe that as almost like linearity
as a term where when you drive a car for the first time
and I think your experience is even more than me
because of the number of cars you drive,
you'll negotiate a few bends, especially on a road you know
and you're a few speeds and your brain has extrapolated
what it thinks the car is going to do
in all these situations that you haven't yet experienced.
So your brain is straight away building a map of
this is how this car behaves.
So and then you go and reaffirm that,
you drive it further and you think,
I did that corner and it did what I thought,
it did what I thought.
So very quickly you build a map,
this is how the car is going to drive
based on these few inputs I've done
and it keeps doing what you expect.
And that's what I would say is a linear car.
Yeah.
And then if you've got a car where
it did one thing at low speed and then you think,
well, that means that high speed is going to do this
and it's just something completely different.
You're like.
Does that mean it's a bad car
or is that just a specific sort of car?
Perhaps it's optimized for a certain type of road
and driving.
I guess it depends on the goal, isn't it?
Because some manufacturers,
especially the German manufacturers in high speed terms,
I'm thinking Autobahn,
they can make quite an agile car
and then they'll do things with the chassis and aerodynamics
which means they turn into the world's most dull
unresponsive cars for cruising down the Autobahn.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But it's changed its behavior but that's what they want.
But do you think that,
and I say this because
the only tuition I've ever received
was me and my colleagues from Watercar
this is 30-odd years ago went to Hethel
and had a couple of days being taught by John Miles,
the famous XF1 driver and Lotus chassis guy,
how to do what he does.
And he always maintained that you can get a very good idea
of everything a car is going to do
without ever doing more than 20 miles an hour
and that fundamentally how the car responds
at 20 miles an hour is or at least should be,
how it's going to respond at any speed you're doing.
Is that still the case?
I think probably less so nowadays
just because of the amount of tech in cars
and things we've learned since.
So you can manipulate a car much more
than you ever used to be able to.
But in general, it's definitely what you want.
So in my mind what he's described is what you want.
You know, I've driven this car at 20 miles an hour
and I think, I like this.
And then it does what I want
and then you want it to just keep doing what you want.
That's what I desire in a car.
He did show me, he did say to me,
what you need to do is get in a car
and you can't get your testing
and go to your nearest roundabout
and put in an input that will take you
around that roundabout and then don't change it
and see whether the car is capable of following that
for the entire duration of the roundabout.
And he said, and this was a long time ago
so maybe they're better now.
But he said, almost no cars will.
Almost no cars will actually do a full lap of a roundabout
without needing some kind of correction
because they're not going where you're pointing them.
Which just struck me as being bizarre
but then I went out and did it
and time and again you get in something
and you go and you set an input
which will start it going around the roundabout.
But by the time you got halfway around
it wasn't where you wanted it to be anymore.
Which I just thought was extraordinary.
Yeah, so I think cars are better at that these days.
So how I would break down that kind of like behavior
in the linearity terms again,
there's a few sides to it which is
how much the car steers per fixed hand will input.
So you steer 15 degrees, you get a certain,
that's not to say, you steer 30, you get more,
you get, so you build up a picture of
when I steer this much the car does.
That much.
And you get incremental gains.
So that's in pure angle.
You've then got speed of input.
So I've steered quickly and the car responded quickly.
I steer slowly and the car responds slowly.
So the faster you steer the car keeps up with you
because you can get, one of the biggest things
you'll find is that's where the linearity falls down.
So you can drive quite slowly
and the car does what you want
and you steer it quickly
and there's like a everyone stops and thinks
and then the car responds after that.
That's the second term.
And then the third part is what you've just described
where you've steered and you've left the car alone
and it suddenly speeds up.
What will happen there?
Or it suddenly slows down.
So you've got, it's like this.
And that's the big map that the brain is building
just from a few inputs.
And I think that it's something we just do naturally.
Well, that's the question.
So does it matter?
If you got to the point where,
which I think we're all at,
anybody who drives regularly is actually,
you are correcting the car all the time
but not even aware of it
because it has become such an innate,
such natural thing to do.
Does it actually matter that a car
isn't going where you're pointing it
and that the car is fundamentally
not producing reliable outputs to your inputs?
I think it depends on the car
and who it's like for and who the customer is
and what the brand is,
you know what the brand wants to have
as a core value because I find,
do you find cars,
when you live with a car
it has like a, what I would term a natural gate
where you just get in it
and it goes along at a pace where
it just settles down and you just drive along.
So we used to have a Discovery 5
and that car happily just lulled about.
I never drove it fast, aggressive at all.
It didn't want to but then it was brilliant at what it did.
It just had a natural speed of the way it did things
and you could say that in pure terms of
how fast it responded and doing different things
it was not as good as that as another car
but it didn't matter.
It's always for, yeah.
Yeah, and then you get in.
And you could make it a lot worse
if you made it a lot more reactive.
That's not what you want from a Discovery 5.
Absolutely.
Defenders similarly,
like we've just replaced a Defender
with a Range Rover Sport last week
and the character shift is instant
but then that's what you want.
So I jump out of my A290
into a Defender, which is the most extreme example
and I'm just getting off the drive thinking,
God, it's just like creeping off the drive.
You know, just like gradually creep off the drive
whereas the A290 is like, off we go.
And that's just a throttle characteristic
as one example.
So the cars find their natural gate,
the Panda 100 HP.
Crackling guy, do you got one of those?
Yes, I've got one.
And that is,
you can feel the cars frustrated
if you're not wringing its neck.
Yeah.
You know, it's like, if you drive it slowly,
it like bounces around and you know,
it wants to rev and you just have to get on it
and then it's happy.
So.
All I would say,
back to the point that I was making about,
doesn't matter if you're not aware
that you're doing it.
So let's say you're driving a car
and you are constantly correcting it
but you know,
to not any greater amount
and you're expecting to do it
and so you're not even conscious of it.
The moment you get into a car
where you don't have to do that,
that's when you notice it.
Yeah.
That's when you don't notice the cars you have to correct.
You notice the cars you don't have to correct.
And that's when you get those sort of car park moments
where I mean, I remember having this
with the A110 when I first drove it
just driving the car and just,
and you know, with things like Lotus Elise
and that sort of thing.
And you just sort of feel,
this just feels right.
And when you actually boil it down
to what it is about that car
which has suddenly made you feel as so at home
and so confident and so happy in it,
it's because actually it's doing what you wanted to do
and it's not like cars like,
I mean, the shiny example of how not to do it
is the Alpha 4C, which you were always correcting.
Even in a straight line,
you're just driving down the road
and it's going there and it's going there
and it's going out and all your confidence has gone
and you get to around it
and you don't even wanna try and push it
and then you're into that other thing
where you've got a car where you don't wanna drive fast
but which is set up to be driven fast
and it just gets, yeah, grim.
It does.
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I just want to talk a little bit about experience
and how important that is in your job,
your line of work.
Presumably, building up that database of other cars,
dozens and dozens of other cars
that behave in a certain way.
That's a core part of it, isn't it?
And being able to call on that database.
Because certainly from our side,
I think it's one of the most important things.
How can you possibly assess a car
when you haven't driven its predecessor
and its competition?
Absolutely.
How do you know where it is?
What's good, what's bad?
Yeah, so when I first started doing fit economics,
it was 1998 out of university.
And the experienced people say,
well, if you do this for six years,
you might let you do it for yourself.
And you think, six years.
And what they're trying to get across
is exactly what you've said,
is the experience of doing the job
and the size of the topic.
And just getting used to,
I would say you by experiencing lots of cars,
but also doing it a lot.
The way I look at it is you build
like a reference model in your head.
So because you have to,
one of the differences without
is I drive the same car over and over and over again.
And some of those changes can be really, really small.
And what I don't get to experience
is lots and lots of different cars.
We benchmark a few,
but I'm driving the same car over and over and over again.
And you're driving lots and lots of different cars,
which can be helpful in-
And often only for a couple of hours at a time.
Yeah, so I've spent 10,000 miles in whatever car,
all these money changes and positioned it there
and then say, here you go and you drive over two hours
and say, well, I don't like that.
You know, so, but there's a,
we both, we all have to evaluate the car
within half an hour, I would say.
So if we're doing a change on a car
and we wanna drive that change
and subjectively evaluate what it's done,
that's a half an hour.
And then you've made a judgment and you say,
well, I didn't like that.
I don't like that.
I like that, you know, it happens that quickly.
Yeah.
So what did you think when you're back in your JLR days
where you and your team spend not weeks or months,
but years developing a car,
honing it to the finest possible ledger that you can,
making it as good as good can be.
And then it ends up going to a bunch of motoring
journalists, frankly, none of whom are qualified
in terms of official qualifications.
In an environment, they don't know
because the launch is set in some lovely hot sunny location
and they drive the car for, you know,
a couple of hours, if you're lucky
and then produce a verdict, which, you know,
if it appears in an important publication
may well have a material effect
on the success of that car or otherwise.
You might, other times you just sit there
and go, actually guys,
you don't know what you're talking about
because you've not committed any kind of evaluation
with sufficient rigour or time
or understanding of what this car is trying to do.
I would say it's not happened to me.
And so the only time I found that to be something
that has affected a decision
is when you've moved from launch to long-term.
So I think that because we spent so long in the car
we've got, we're more in tune with a long-term assessment
than we are with the first one, which is fine.
But if you come along to a launch and drive a car
and two hours say, oh, it does this and that's rubbish,
if I'm surprised by that, I think we've done a bad job.
Right, yeah, you know, don't you?
You already know.
So there's two ways of looking at that.
One is that we know how good the car is, we do.
Yeah, of course you do.
And what we're balancing off is who's gonna buy it
and how much they're gonna pay for it.
And when we run out of time and all those other things.
And budget.
And budget.
So no car on sale ever has been
where the vehicle dynamics is stored.
Whoever's doing it, it's gone,
I can't do better than that.
Yeah, this is as good as it's gonna be.
No one's slapping the sales on the back and said,
I'm amazing.
It's perfect.
Never, never.
So there's always a reason why you stop, basically.
So that's how I describe it.
Time and money usually being two of them.
We keep going, we keep going.
Someone says you have to stop now and we go for it.
It's as good as we can get it for now.
So there's that side of it where I don't think
you're telling us a bit about the vehicle behavior
that we don't already know.
And then the other side of it is that the company
has to have done a good job in framing
what the car is and who it's for
and why it is what it is.
And I've seen mistakes made where you've driven a car
without context and you get an opinion of it.
But actually when you explain what that car is about
and what it's for and what it's supposed to achieve,
then it actually frames it differently.
Because I've heard you say Andrew in the past
that a good car is one that does the task
it's supposed to do very, very well.
That's absolutely true in my mind.
And it doesn't matter whether it's a tiny car
or super car or a luxury car or whatever.
That's right, yeah.
So I look at Range Rover Sport SVR,
the previous model and F-Pace SVR,
they were successful models,
especially the Range Rover in terms of sales.
And they never won a like the best steering,
handling, whatever group test.
And we didn't intend it to be that way because they're SUVs.
So I've know, I didn't, it's like what's the point
in making an SUV that can demonstrate
it handles as well as a saloon car?
I don't, you know, what's the point in that?
It's an SUV.
If I wanted it to be a saloon car, I'd buy one.
But also you couldn't do it, could you?
Because you're fundamentally limited by the laws of physics.
Yeah, or you could do it,
but the price you pay would be super stiff ride
or other things, you know.
So you lose far more than you gain.
Exactly, so you have to say, well, at its core,
this car is an SUV,
I'm gonna make a performance version of it.
Not, I'm gonna make a performance car
or I'm gonna make it in an SUV.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
You do it the right way around.
And you make it perform well
without fundamentally changing its character.
And going back to what you were talking about,
cars having a certain sort of gate,
a certain sort of way they want to be driven.
So, you know, a Range Rover SVR is still a car
that you're gonna want to be able to lull up around it.
And if it was just like pinging around,
it'd be horrible, wouldn't it?
Yeah, it did like that car's full of character
in some ways because it's slightly flawed almost
where it's got so much power and torque
and it pitches.
It does like a speedboat.
Like it's almost part of the fun, you know,
like it makes it feel like,
oh, wow, they've put this massive engine in a Range Rover
and it feels like that.
Oh, I've said for a long time that engineers should start,
we're at the safety of our engineers to start
engineering in the right kind of faults into cars.
Cars that faults that don't actually
make you not want to drive the car,
but just involve you a bit more
and give the car a bit of flavor,
a bit of character because, you know,
I guess there's one very objective thought
which says that the fault-free car is a car
you'd barely be aware of driving
because it would just do it all for you.
Yeah. And who was that?
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
I do think there is something to be said for that
and it's incredibly difficult to kind of do
because in the engineering world, everything's better.
As you know, so I heard a,
the name escapes me.
The guy runs the Porsche GT models.
And you're just pointing at?
Yeah, so.
He might be listening, by the way.
Okay. He does a regular listener.
So I heard him, what was he doing into him?
Where he was talking about,
this GT3 is better than the last one.
Yeah. It just is.
Everything it does is better than the last one
and that's true, you can't argue with it.
Absolutely true.
And that's how we do it.
It rides better, uses less fuel,
it's faster, it sounds, you know, everything is better
because that's just how things are gonna progress.
So to then say, we're gonna make this thing worse
or flawed is really, really difficult to charge.
Course it is.
Super, super hard.
Yeah.
And that's why I think like.
But better is almost by definition
an objective assessment, isn't it?
Better is faster, slower, more frugal, whatever.
Whereas what I'm talking about
is something you could never see on a specification sheet
and it's something which just talks to the human being
within us all who wants to be involved
with the process of just why I love old cars.
You know, it's why I've got a very small,
unimportant collection of rubbish old cars
because I just love how busy they make you.
And I wish that modern cars would do,
and I appreciate that I'm in a very small minority
because most people just want cars
to go from one place to the other
and too much of that would be incredibly annoying
when I drive the Range Rover
got parked outside of home.
I want to be as removed from the sensation of driving
as I possibly can.
But if I want out to enjoy driving a car,
which is why I wish the A110 had a manual gearbox
and I know why it doesn't and I appreciate that
but anything that gets you more involved with the process
even if it is technically not improving the car
even if it may actually technically be making it worse
for that sort of car and that sort of driving
that's what I want a car to do.
Yeah, and so how I think I would use
going all the way back to like evaluation
or the training side of it.
There's like three stages of that.
And the first part is you drive a car
and you're just determining what it's doing.
You know, so like, right,
so when I steer the car does this,
when it goes around the car does this,
so you're just determining what it's doing.
And in my experience,
when people who are used to doing vehicle evaluation
and journalists and engineers get together
and they use and they just describe
what the vehicle is doing,
they tend to agree most of the time
because we can all feel what the car's doing.
This is what it's doing.
Everyone goes, oh yes.
What then happens is you then have the
do I like that or not conversation
and what would I like to do it instead?
And that's when all the arguments start
because everyone says this is what the car's doing.
And everyone goes, yes it is.
We all agree on that.
We all agree on that.
And someone will go, I don't like that.
But I do like that.
And I wish you did that instead.
I don't want it to do that.
You know, and that's when you could introduce
like flaws or different character
or whatever you call it to say,
I wish you did that.
And that's really hard for manufacturers to judge
because especially the less niche a car is,
the harder that is because of the number of people
that might be driving it.
Yeah, the number of different opinions.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's all.
And in Lutheran way back to training,
then on the job training was firstly about that step one,
can you determine what the car's doing?
Yes.
Can you feel that?
So you can do, I started off with tire testing.
Tire testing's the best place because you,
the tire is the, you know,
from a vehicle dynamics point of view,
the tire is the one, the most important part
of that chassis because it can change everything,
absolutely everything.
It's just one component.
So if you go tire testing
and you're trying different tires and compounds
and constructions and those sorts of things,
you end one, you don't know what's going to happen
and two, anything could be affected.
So you have to absolutely be able to tune in,
you know, everything that's gone on.
Yeah.
So you need to be out of,
so because you're then telling the tire manufacturer,
that's a good tire, suits the car, that's a bad tire,
you can't go wrong, you know.
So you learn that first part of, you know,
I drove a car, we changed something,
I drove it again, this is what changed,
this is how it was different.
So that's like a first step
in terms of on-the-job training.
I think I was lucky that I started at Jaguar in 2000
and that was in the Ford era where
you know, when they did the Focus,
you know, Mondare and Focus
and the Paris-Jones era where they worked really hard on,
you know, DNA, what was DNA of a car
in terms of how you set out what you want the car to be.
But also a system they called Artur2,
which is the, I wouldn't say process,
but a structure behind how you assess a car
and they had a big process defined
how you did it, you could go to Belgium
and be trained in how to do it, you know,
and it would like be structured
in the way you would record it.
And what it did was it took language
out of that as much as possible
so that you could say, you know,
when I go over this particular input on a proving round,
how much does the body move, is it a lot, is it a little?
You know, so it's trying to use terms
to kind of like get everyone on the same page
just to just describing what the car did
and how it behaved and uses less language as possible.
So it was like trying to put some kind of structure
and science behind it.
So, you know, so I was, I had the benefit of that
as well as, you know, on the job
with guys that have been doing it a long time.
So you just kind of like hone your skill in that way.
Yeah.
And you just, you know, I feel like
I can do quite a good job of it.
Well, no, I know, I know you can.
And I'm sure you do too.
Because...
In a very different way.
But, you know, so that principle is the same for you
is surely, you know, you're getting a car
and you think, what's this doing?
And I would say, I would say I listened to a car first.
So like you get in the car,
I've not been in this car before
or I've changed the component, I'm just going to drive
and I'm just going to let it talk to me.
Like, what's it telling me about what's different
or are you just allowing that to happen?
Or are you very, very consciously going,
what's the steering doing now, this corner, what's the...
Or are you just sort of absorbing it,
just letting it seep in?
I absorb first and then,
I think something you touched on earlier,
a road you've driven a thousand times is really important.
I was going to ask about this.
So, you know, so it's easier for engineers
because they're working in a certain place
and they have roads they use all the time.
So you've changed.
But they also have to be worthwhile roads, don't they?
Yes.
There's no point if they're dead straight
and belly and smooth.
No, that's right.
So I would say, you know, I go and just drive the road
I know and I let the car talk to me
and I absorb what it's doing because I, you know,
I know I've driven this corner a thousand times.
So I know what it takes to negotiate it
and when something different happens,
it kind of like shouts at you.
And then once I've done that, and I think,
well, that's interesting.
And then I might go and like ask questions of it.
So you absorb information
and then you might go on like a dual-courage way
and just sort of like...
Exactly.
Just, well, what happens?
Sometimes you might also drive a bit badly.
This is what I do.
You know, I want to sort of over-adjutate the car
on the way into a corner or something.
I just want to know how it responds.
You're not necessarily trying to drive
as skillfully as you can.
Sometimes you just want to see what the car will do.
Yeah, and you'll see test drivers
that can be different to racing drivers in that, you know,
so like a racing driver's trying to just make that car
sit on the balance to go as fast as it can.
And the test drivers got it completely out of control
because they wanted to see what happened.
And the skill sets are different.
So for that, as you just thought.
I think it's interesting that you go about
in exactly the same way that we do or certainly that I do.
I think it is so important to just drive the car,
first of all, and actually not think too hard about it
and just let all that subjective stuff
sort of flood your mind.
Because I think if you get into a car and you think,
right, I'm going to turn into this corner
and I'm going to think really hard about
how far I've turned the steering wheel,
what input I've put into this control
and what the car is doing.
I think you can massively overthink it.
And I think that you can get unreliable results
from thinking too hard about it,
particularly if you haven't first, just let the cars,
you say just so important, let the car talk to you.
Because that general sense that you get
is the most reliable, for want of a better word,
data that you'll ever get from a car.
Because that never changes.
You're never going to drive it one way
and feel one set of things and then do the same
and you'll feel completely different because it won't.
And then after that, you can start to interrogate it
a bit more closely.
Yeah, so those first impressions really matter.
They really do.
Yeah, as I said earlier,
building a picture of that car immediately,
like, because we all love talking about the A110,
is what it does really well.
An A110, as you say, you've done 20 mile an hour,
so I've left home, pulled out my driveway,
I'm doing 20 mile an hour and it's immediately going,
it's immediate, it feels light immediately.
Absolutely.
And I've barely been anywhere.
So you think, well, how's that?
Because how is it making,
and it's just the sense of how it reacted
to the road inputs, as small as they were,
how it reacted to the small steering demand,
it just feels light straight away.
It does, doesn't it?
It really does.
And that's the thing with,
I mean, because cars are,
generally speaking, so heavy these days,
there's some really clever systems
that they put on them.
All the active and passive torque steering,
four-wheel steering, and, you know.
Active roll bars and all sorts of things.
Active roll bars, very, very clever shock absorber systems
and that sort of thing.
And you can make a heavy car mimic
to an extent the behavior of a lighter car.
What you can't do, you may not agree with me,
but what you cannot do
is exactly what you're talking about.
You can't make a heavy car feel light.
You may be able to make it behave
like a light one to a certain one,
but it'll still feel like a heavy car.
And I guess that's just physics, isn't it?
And there's no way around that.
You're never gonna get a two-ton SUV
to feel like a catering.
It's never gonna happen, is it?
No, I don't think so.
And I think that's, exactly as you said,
you can objectively on paper
or through a series of performance definitions
and say this heavy car did what that light car did
and you go, hey, there you go, they're the same.
But when I drove that light car,
I was, my sensation of, this is light, was like immediate.
And this is fun and this is, yeah.
And it's, you know,
I think the A110 is defined by its lightness.
It really is.
Yes, it really is.
And its magic trick is that there's not a downside.
Like I've driven my car to the south of France.
Yeah, that's the crazy thing about it.
I've been to see, David Tuiget is home in Annecy,
which we did as part of a European holiday.
And that's the beauty of it.
But you can't, what I've not managed to do,
because I've probably not thought about it hard enough,
is determine objectively what we're feeling
that makes it appear light.
I've thought about it too much.
Right, okay.
Because what you conclude is that there is no conclusion.
It's just something about the way
that humans perceive things.
But it doesn't, to me,
I don't need to know how my television works.
It's just one of those things
that you know and you feel and it's innate.
And it's the fact that you feel these things
rather than why it is,
which to me is what matters, really.
Enough A110?
Yeah.
Well, I'm talking about any car.
You never mentioned A110 on this podcast.
No, we don't.
We try to avoid it.
Well, listen, we very quickly ran out of time.
That was a good one because 50 odd minutes just flew by.
It did.
We're done.
We're done.
So, it was good fun to hear
about how engineers go about doing this job.
And actually, I think journalists came out of it
in reasonably good form.
I have to say that we, yeah.
I think you've probably been quite kind to us.
No, I don't think so.
Because I think-
I think if we came on your podcast,
it might be quite good.
Luckily for you, I don't have one.
But I think the takeaway for me though
is that journalists and engineers,
as long as we're representative of our groups,
are actually quite close together.
But we just have different opportunities
within our roles, don't we?
Yeah.
But broadly speaking,
the way we go about doing what we do
is really quite similar.
Yeah, we tend to,
I think we tend to get along,
probably for that reason, don't we?
Yeah.
Like, you know, lots of engineers like me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know lots of the media for the same reason.
And you kind of get along
because there's a lot of commonality in there.
Well, we'll just call people, aren't we?
Yeah, yeah.
And then I think I've heard you say before, Andrew,
that, you know, the reason you do this is not for driving.
It's because you wanna write.
Yeah.
And the same for me.
I do this because I've got a car that drives a certain way.
I want it to drive someone another way.
And I'm fascinated by how to make that happen.
And the driving part gets me there.
And so we have like two different ultimate passions,
but a share core.
I mean, I love driving, but I love communicating.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
If I had a choice of driving or communicating,
I'd stop driving immediately.
It's probably a terrible thing to admit to my car podcast,
but I just love being the messenger.
Yeah.
And I can't help but bury myself in a problem
or some data that says or understanding,
you know, this car behaves like this.
Why is that?
That's, I'm off.
Yeah, that's what I want.
That's what I stuck in there.
Yeah.
That's what I wanna go and do.
And you won't stop until you've.
Yeah.
Found out.
I wanna understand, learn, it could be just understand
or it could be actually improve and make better,
but that's the core.
And then the driving and evaluating part gets me there.
Well, listen, we need to wrap this up.
Oh, thank you, David.
That was terrific.
That was great.
Thank you for your time.
Thanks for coming in.
No problem.
Check out Life 110 if you have an Alpine,
any kind of Alpine it seems.
And yeah, if you're watching on YouTube,
please just subscribe to our YouTube channel.
If you're just listening via a podcast app,
make sure you follow the show.
And in return, we'll be back again next week.
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About this episode
David Poock, a vehicle dynamicist, joins Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel to discuss the nuances of car appraisal from an engineering perspective. The conversation delves into how engineers evaluate vehicle dynamics compared to journalists, emphasizing the importance of experience and feel in assessing a car's performance. Poock shares insights from his work with Alpine, particularly on the A110 and the new A290, highlighting the challenges of making heavy cars feel light and the subjective nature of handling. The episode offers a fascinating look into the intersection of engineering and automotive journalism.
Original notes
Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel are joined in the studio by David Pook, who spent almost 20 years working at Jaguar Land Rover as a ride and handling engineer. David is now best known for his Alpine tuning brand LIFE110, which offers upgrades for the A110 sports car and A290 electric hot hatch. In this episode Dan, Andrew and David discuss the similarities and differences between how car journalists and engineers go about assessing cars. David talks about his process and which key attributes make for a good car.
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The Intercooler
Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel
0:00
61:10