Is the European car industry doomed? | The Car Podcast #50

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Welcome to episode Q-Drumroll 550.

50 of these magnificent pods bought by these three brilliant people and this small brown

person here.

So welcome to the Chris Howells and Friends podcast.

Neil Clifford Manish and Chris Cooper have joined me for 50 episodes now and I have

to say it's been a joy for me.

So thank you so much to them.

Let's move on to this week's Matters.

We're going to start with an utterance, well actually it was written down as an interview

but I think it was delivered verbally, by Ola Kalenius.

Now he is the boss of Mercedes-Benz.

I'm old enough to remember him when he was pre-boss of AMG.

Then he became the boss of AMG and actually when he was the boss of AMG, he gave

us their best run of cars which is why I think I was really happy including this part.

He's a car man, he gets it.

So he gave us all those 63 AMGs, the C's, the E's, the S's, he gave us the SLS AMG.

He gave us some properly clever cars so he's a good car guy and he's made rather

a dire prediction about the European car industry and I might just pass over to

my native friend Chris Cooper, our industry correspondent, to just

clarify what Ola might have said and whether we think he's right or not.

Chris Cooper.

He said, he actually said this, he said two things.

He said Europe's car market could collapse and then he then wanted to say the industry

is experiencing heavy rain, hail, storms and snow all at the same time.

That's probably German for a perfect storm of shittiness of whatever.

Why did he say that and is he right?

He said that as far as I can tell, I'm not totally intimate with his thinking

processes but I imagine it's not a huge leap to say he said that for a number of reasons.

One is, European, maybe primary reason is, European car makers are facing this

cliff edge of 2035 where they can no longer sell petrol or I'll think even

hybrid powered motor vehicles and his concern is that given, I think Mercedes

right now, 8% of their total delivery is worldwide in 25 electric vehicles.

So not many.

In China, China is the Thompson mayor would call it, the EV marketplace is

about 35%. So it's bigger than most of Europe, always pretty much bigger but the

Chinese have clearly invested for a long, long time, we've touched on this before,

in EV manufacturing, battery manufacturing, lots of incentives domestically, so

these things, they've had 20 years of investing and maybe 10 years of doing

this really well. So the jaws of death, that's my expression not

cleanest is he can use that if I'm not in the room, the jaws of death for the

European car market that I think he's predicting are that by the time we get

near 2035, the European car industry won't have developed enough of an EV

marketplace because nobody wants to buy the stuff. They're way behind anyway on

infrastructure, batteries and so forth. The Chinese are going to take over

everything because the only cars you're going to be able to buy will be

electric and everyone wants a Chinese one because they're cheaper and they're

really good and the Ford CEO, your mate, you met at Le Mans, Chris, current Ford

CEO, what's his name? Jim Farley. I saw him on a podcast talking about the

amazing tech that Chinese EVs have already got. So I don't think it would

be as calamitous as the whole car market could collapse but it ain't going

to look anything like it does now unless something changes. If nothing changes,

it's hard to see, possible to see how the European car makers can catch up to

where the Chinese are on the quality and cost and you know, omnipresence of

EVs. Generally speaking, Norway is a bit of an outlier in Europe but in the

rest of Europe there are very, there are fewer private car consumer incentives to

buy EVs. Makers have got to start making more, they're losing money on them

because they've got huge incentives and discounts to give them away. He's right,

it's a perfect storm of shittiness. So I think he's perfect, he has decent

ground to fear that Europe's car market is not in a great place unless

something changes. Something will have to give either the 2035 will go away or

be diluted in some way or car makers will radically have to think about changing

others. So many of us will, will the weaker have to go. Consumers in Europe

including the UK will have to dramatically change their behavior for

that car maker collapse not to be the outcome. The most likely outcome of

nothing changes as car makers give me a shit is unfortunately my considered view

right now.

No, Clifford, do you give a shit about electric cars?

I give a shit about this because I suppose it's a, it's a, obviously I

didn't study economics but it's a very, it's a very simple thing, isn't it?

You can't, you can't dictate a market until consumers what to do through laws.

And if you do, unforeseen totally shit circumstances come about to people's

jobs, industries, you know, you just, you just, you know, I'm no Brexit

here, right? I thought that was all silly. But there's no doubt that

trying to, trying to write a rule which tells consumers and industries what to

do is very, very dangerous when, when, when, when it, when it's sort of

written by people that have never probably run companies or anything or

industries or, or looked after the tricky balance of employing people and

making profits. So I think it's, it is, I think he's probably right. No, probably

also Mercedes have done not, probably done a bit of a shit job. One could argue

slightly. So maybe he's talking his book a little bit, but there's no doubt

that consumers aren't ready, industry's not ready, infrastructure's not

ready. And the playing field isn't level, not to say I'm, you know,

brilliantly read on this, but I think, you know, labor is much, much, much

cheaper in China. Electricity is much, much cheaper in China. Land is much

cheaper. Government subsidies are much higher. So I think to, to say, to, to, to,

I mean, it might be that this, and you know, there's no such rules, I

don't think in America, I'll just come back from America, which I know I'm

going to talk about. You know, you see a lot of Teslas, I was in California,

but apart from that, you know, they're going about their lives over there.

And there's no way that you could put a law in, I don't think in the US that

people wouldn't get out their guns and start going mad. If this sort of,

if this sort of insistence was given on the US consumer, the reality is that

the EU may well be successful, but it will be successful via killing most of

its industries. And we'll all be driving around in Chinese cars, which

basically what Chris said. So I think it's stupid. And I think, I think in

the end, the date will go back or the law will change because I think maybe

industry has not been loud enough and shouting about it until it's been a

bit too late. So it is a bit of a shitstorm, isn't it?

Do you think, Neil, that incentives rather than sticks would make more of a

consumer difference?

Well, that's if you think about where it started, I don't know, what was it,

five years, seven years ago when there was incentives to go and buy electric

cars? And I know there is now for companies, but certainly there isn't.

And we've got, we've got the new ones that have just come out that are so bloody

complicated that if you exit like me, you're not going to bloody read them

anyway and ignore them because it's like, just keep it simple. It was very

cheap. I had a mate called Pat, who was one of the first guys with the X3 or

whatever, what's the little BMW thing?

It's still one. Yeah. And he used to go to the petrol station, lived in

Brighton, drove up to his little garage in Southeast London, used to

cost him five quid to charge up. He was like, this is fucking brilliant.

This is, this is the future. And then suddenly, three years later, a, because

it's got this little electric, it's got this little petrol motor that if you do

run out of electric, it can get you to the petrol station. Oh, my God.

Well, that's, you know, you can't, you can't now go in the Eulezone,

you've got to pay for it. It's not really electric. It's only pretend

electric. And then suddenly it's 40 quid to charge it up, like three years

later. He's basically like bollocks. You know, what I thought was good is no

longer good. So I think, I think for sure incentives and, and carrots, as

opposed to sticks, I think are definitely the best way to change

consumer behavior. And actually no one, everyone's going about their lives.

You could, you can sit in Brussels as, as long as you want and write

all these amazing strategies and laws and how you're going to save the

planet. And we all want to do that. But if the consumer's not ready, or

they can't afford it, or they live in a flat, or, you know, million other

reasons, they're not going to take any interest, are they? So I think

it's, it's a very naive situation. I would be desperately worried. Thank

God, I'm not, you know, I always dreamed of being in the car

industry. I always wanted a job in the car industry, but Christ, I

wouldn't want one now.

No, no, manage what you think.

I was thinking about something that we said last week when we were

talking about autonomous cars. And the idea is that you can't kind of

push back technology. I think it was actually Mr Cooper, who said

that they're here to stay, people get other jobs. And I think

you've got to either be consistent or not. And I think the

problem or the point is that in the Western world, we do

think we choose things, we think we choose our leaders, we

think we choose our industrial policy, or certainly we think we

debate them. In China, these things are thought through and

imposed. I mean, not only have they created one of the greatest

kind of infrastructure machines, you know, just literally the

ability to produce these cars on mass to ship them on mass,

they bet on them. And they bet on them by going around the

world and securing most of the world's rare earths as well.

Am I read today that China has almost 1200 coal power

stations. One week. One week. Yeah. So, but they've also had

the fastest conversion to renewables that are I think

we're 41%, they're 29%. Now 2023, they went boom. So I think

this is more more of a war situation. Then it is a simple

commercial situation. I mean, this is a bad analogy. But in

the Second World War, probably, what the piece of paper did was

give us a year to really rearm. And I think we just have to

decide in a way as Europe, what we want to do. I mean, Neil,

you're saying that the Americans have made that

decision, which is, I'm going to give a shit about electric

cars, we're going to carry on buying our big car.

Intentives. I think there's, I think there's, there's

carrots, I think. I mean, I'm not sure if you told an

American what to do, he, you know, there will be no

more petrol cars in 2035. You know, you've pointed out

that they'll probably all grab their M1s or their M6s or

their M7s and go out and stop that happening.

You'd be voted out.

Sorry.

You'd be voted out.

Yeah, you would be. So we're a little bit cuddlier here. But I

wonder whether we do need to wake up and then just make a

decision. Because that's a thing I think that we're

really a bit crap about here. And it must, and it

obviously it's easier if you have two languages, 1.4

billion people, a big central government, much easier to

make a decision than having, you know, 30 odd nations, 20

something languages, lots and lots of cultures. But I do

think as Europe, we need to make a decision. I think what

Collinius has argued one side of the coin, which is, don't

give us an artificial kind of deadline. Don't give us a

guillotine, because if you do chop us at 2035, you have

no idea of the consequences. I'd flip it around and say,

Well, what's your plan? Because as you pointed out,

you know, Mercedes, you're my powerful car company in

the world, not that long ago, you know, pre Tesla, they're

still pretty powerful car company. Have they been a bit

schizophrenic about this? I've always had this light

thing, and maybe it's a German thing. I know he's

Swedish, but Germany's had the most the best recycling in

Europe. It's had kind of, you know, the best petrol

consumption Europe, they've got amazing numbers of people

using heat pumps. But also they do put the most diesel

cars in the world in the world. They build all the

diesel trains in the world, you know, they build

generators. I mean, it's a really I was wonder with

Germans whether there is a kind of inherent schizophrenia

in them. Personally, they'd love to be green and lovely

and cuddly. But actually, they export a lot of the

world's industry. And I think they just don't say

these BMW, all of these people have to make a

decision either we do compete with the Chinese, but

we do it in a more more warlike footing, if you

like, or we don't

the you made an interesting point there and I think

and I think Colleen used to said this and with my

motorsport UK hat on we've made the same argument to

UK government and others is to say we all get that

the world is changing and that the ways of the

past in the, you know, unthinking consumption

of hydrocarbons and release of greenhouse gases is

no longer acceptable for obvious reasons. Let us

solve the problem. Don't tell us how to solve

the problem. So allow us some freedom for innovation

technology solutions. We all get what we're trying to

get to. Don't hand stringers to say you have to do

it that way. I was just telling you why you were

talking about the incentives thing in Norway, where

50% of new vehicle registrations are already

EV way above anywhere else in Europe, certainly in

the UK. You can drive in a bus lane if you have an

EV. I'd buy an EV if I could drive in the bus lane

here. Sometimes sometimes great irony of Norway's EV

what's a big export now? I mean it's just the same

thing as Germany export. Yeah. Well, they've got

embarrassed by that now, which is why I'm doing

all this stuff. There's no VAT. No VAT.

The population of three in Norway is on.

That's only $2 trillion. Do you think you're still

run by quizlings? I think so. But I do think when

Norway is cited as this paragon of electric car

I didn't say that. I said I'm saying but it is but

not Norway needs to be parked. I just think no

they're also they've reduced their incentive

scheme and impressively they're they sell a lot

of EVs still. I think what's fascinating about

this change is noted. I'll talk now. I think what's

interesting about this is that it's very rare for

the CEO of a brand as recognized as this to

sound so vulnerable. I think it's the

vulnerability of it of the statement to me. It's

almost Mercedes Benz. The iconography of

Mercedes is quite 39 to 45, isn't it? It's

quite abrupt. We're not to mess with. You've

almost got this guy. He's like a Labrador rolling

on his back going. Look, we've got soft bellies.

We're really vulnerable. We could get done over

here and I and I I really strange to hear

someone speak like that. Do we feel sympathetic

because of that? I think slightly I do because

I I think what we're seeing here is we're

going to see car companies fail in Europe in

the next five years. I think maybe a bit

longer but it's one thing failing through

your own idiocy and adequacies and poor

decisions. But it's another thing failing

because governments have not really allowed

you to, as Chris rightly said, innovate at

your own speed. You know, can you imagine

if, you know, Neil in your industry, if

someone came to you and said, right, you

can do whatever you want, but you can only

make, you can use these two materials.

They've got to be this color and this shape.

And they've been dictated to on a level

that is unprecedented for any other

industry and they've been dictated to

by people who don't know a fucking

thing about cars. And ironically enough,

by people who don't use cars most of the

time, you know, the political castes tend

to be picked up in a Prius and taken to

the airport, don't they? So that's why I

do feel some sympathy for them. I just

think, and then the other question we

asked each other, and I'll put this to

all of you now. Is it too late? Is it

already too late? Chris Cooper, is it

already too late? I mean, never say

never. But I think in its current

form, I mean, Crikey, when Sergio

Marchione was around running Fiat and

Fiat Chrysot, he would say, and going

back to the 90s and early 2000s, there

was chronic overcapacity in the European

car manufacturing industry, 20%. And

that was a different kind of problem

because no government wanted to say,

they all agreed, but nobody wants to

be the one that took the pain. So

protecting car factories has become,

you know, a completely cliched

political trope. If you've got a car

factory, you never close it. Hope

something else happens to it. So this

has been stored up for a long, long

time. I mean, I would say, I think

there will have to be changes to

incentives. There'll have to be

changes to the target. Hopefully the

nature of how you achieve the target,

the time scales, all those things.

But none of that's going to happen

without a fundamental change in the

assumptions over how big is the

car industry in Germany and in parts

of Western Eastern Europe. I think,

yeah, that's a given.

No, Clevert. What do you think? Is it too late?

No, no, I'm always an optimist. I

think industry and companies are

immensely clever. They just need to

be, they need the noose loosened. They

need the ladder shoved under a little

bit. And I think that if we're

talking about the EU, I suppose,

aren't we? There must be immense

internal pressure. If this is if this

is an outward statement in the

Times or the FT or what it was, you

imagine the pressure internally from

every single manufacturer into the

EU. And surely, you know, Germany is

still by far the most powerful

nation in the EU. I would suggest.

So if anyone can make some

changes in order to give companies,

industries, technology, a bit more

time to adapt, I think the

challenge is, you know, it's not a

level flat level playing field,

is it? The Chinese have been

brilliantly clever and long term

as this, you know, they are both

those things. But also, you know,

you're paying your employees

probably 20% of what you're

paying in Europe. Your

electricity bills are

significantly lower. Your, your

government incentives are high.

Your land is almost free. I mean,

it's, it's, it's a difficult

comparison. That's, that's why,

you know, the EU is trying to do

it via tariffs, aren't they?

On, on to balance it on

tariffs. But it's a little bit

more complicated than that,

because a lot of the German

manufacturers are making cars in

China and importing them back

into the EU, some of them. So a

lot of the battery technology

by Mercedes and the BMW, I

think is in China. Yeah,

be your idea and careful. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not. Yeah.

What do you think? Do you

think it's too late or not?

No, I don't think it's too

late. But I mean, the one place

I don't agree with Neil is

you're right, it's not level

playing field. It's, it's

stacked in our favor. We built

the playing field. We're the

ones with the money. We break

down the borders. We were quite

happy to get the Chinese to

build for us left, right and

center. Let those companies

make massive profits, which

they basically bank. Who built

the Chinese infrastructure? It

wasn't Mao, you know, it was

us. Tim Cook, why is he

the chairman of Apple? Because

he built the Apple

infrastructure for 12 years

building that supply chain. So

I don't, I don't think it's

a playing field. We built it

now we're eating it. But what I

would say is that I don't

think it's ever too late

because at the end of the day,

Europe is rich by

comparison. Chinese growth

domestic product per capita

is nowhere near as we, you

know, what we're, I think

all saying is the same thing

we would love Europeans to

buy EVs, hybrids, whatever,

you know, something that's

going to effectively make a big

difference to our hydrocarbon

consumption. And we should do

it by incentivizing rather than

maybe putting a gear in there.

But then Calenius has got to

pull his finger out, built

some good cars.

Not give us the EQS.

Correct. That is a

terrible car.

Here's a question for you.

Absolutely. This gets to the

hub of it. Would you, I'll

speak to myself. I wouldn't

buy a Chinese electric car.

I feel, I just feel that

we should support our

domestic and European

car industry. And I'm not a

xenophobe. I'm very

international. Look at me.

I'm not, I'm not from around

here. But actually, I feel

quite strongly now you got

we've got a chance.

Yes. Back our boys and

girls. I think we probably

should. What do you think?

Am I being terribly xenophobic

there, Chris?

No, you're not. But I think

you're being it's a

plaintive plea. Anybody who

I know is thinking of buying

an electric car. Lots of people

ask me, you know, I only know

seven people. So say six of

them say I'm thinking of

buying an electric car. They

would say, I'm going to get

one of those Chinese ones

because they're quite cheap

aren't they? Apparently quite

good. Yeah, we're, we're,

we're a niche community,

unfortunately, of five

percent of owner. Yeah. I

think if you're, you're my

brother, who's I don't know.

I mean, no one's writing

checks for cars now, are

they? So you just, it's either

two, nine, nine a month or

three, nine, nine or four,

you know what I mean? You go

and get the, the BYD or the

MG or whatever. And it's

going to be a lot, lot, lot

cheaper.

That's something that's

value.

Maybe that's something we

could do as a nation. We're

a very good banking nation.

We've got a very old

history at banking. Maybe

governments could start to

create cheaper loans for

homemade or European made

electric cars. Maybe there

is a good financial

talk about the car

finance market in the UK on

another day.

Okay.

Right. Here's a new one for

you. Cars that become part

of the family.

This conversation can go one

or two ways. It can either

be full of really cool

anecdotes to make it one

go. That's great. Or it

can become a bit

saccharine sweet. If it

comes to saccharine, I'm

going to pull a plunger on it

and move on to the next

person. You've been warned,

my learning friends. You've

been warned. Tell us the

story, Neil Clifford, about

a car that became part of

the family.

I don't know whether you

can press the buzzer on the

saccharine or whatever it

was.

The first the first car

that we bought as a family

in 2005

was the new the new

Land Rover Discovery

3.

Yeah.

Right. This was the first

time that we've had a new

car that's not a sort of

company car sporty

Corrado 205

Renault type thing.

This was like grown up, you

know, two two bloody

kids, not bloody kids,

nice kids, one on the

way.

Well, he didn't he was

born to 2008, but

so we had to be sensible

for a change. We traded

in Redmond those Jeep

Cherokees that we bought

like seven year old thing,

not the pretty one, but

the fat one.

The first one was nice and

square and design on an

Etch-a-sketch and then it

got fat, didn't it?

So we had that one, the

Blackbird Turn.

So it is okay.

But then we were like, oh,

you know, I've been promoted.

I'm now a director.

Let's be all very sort of

middle class and Muswell

Hill. We're going to go and

buy buy buy a brand

new sort of car.

And you know what that I

still love that.

I wish I hadn't bloody sold

it that disco three.

I know everyone talks

disco four, but the disco

three, which is the same

bloody car without the

sparkly bits.

The dash is all fucking

great, isn't it?

And that car, we owned it

for six years, did, I think

18, 90,000 miles a year

as you do being

sort of fake middle class

driving down to Beaud,

you know, down there.

What you do when you got

young kids, you know,

and it's now in the end

it's not sort of sick and

the sand.

It's because the kids are

always sick in it.

And but amazing

stories. We had the greatest

hits of Queen constantly

playing in the sort of CD

play because it was still it

was still pre Bluetooth

and streaming.

So it was all about that six

disk interchanger and it had,

you know, a bit of simply red

in there. But I'm sure those

discs are still in there.

No one's ever got them out.

And we, you know, just sing

along. And I shouldn't

have sold it really.

It'd be a nice little memory,

family memory, just stuck in

the middle of the bloody lawn

or something.

So that, that, you know, if

that's saccharine, I apologize,

but it's not at all.

Would you do

you do you think

it did you did you were you

sad that they left you

or was that just part of the

process?

It was part of the process at

the time, isn't it? You always

look back selling it's

almost selling any cars,

always a bloody mistake.

You wish you can keep all of

them. And I don't do a bad job

of that. But that you, you, it

was, it was, I don't know how

coming around what we, oh,

we traded it for a mistake

was actually.

Now you remind me, we traded

it for a defender.

What happened to the defender?

I then sold it because I've

got a job in Switzerland.

I've got another defender left

and drive one, which my wife

then turned over on the M5 and

we wrote it off.

But that's another story going

along on its side at 70

miles an hour on the M5.

Going down to fucking

butte. You always just go to

always go to butte.

So it was a mistake trading

it in because even though the

defender is gray and cool.

And I mean, you swapped a

good car for a shit car,

basically.

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's

another. We'll write that down.

Trading is shit. A good car

for a shit car.

That's another.

Yeah. Someone just said, can we

just make sure that we actually

choose all the points that no

Clifford during his monologue

says, well, that'd be a good

discussion for next week.

I was trying to capture them.

I do try to capture them.

Remember the family.

I was torn here between

two BMWs and a disco.

But I think it's

got to be one of the BMWs

because.

Interesting. That disco you

bought near. Was that the first

new car you bought with your own

money? Yeah, this

is the same.

This is the same. It was.

I bought it in 2001

and it was the first new car

I bought.

From new, expected

and all and everything.

It was an E46 BMW

three thirty diesel sport

touring.

Nice.

It was such

a cool car

and part of the reason why it was

really cool was because

that was the car I brought my

boys home from hospital after

they were born.

And I had two weeks to think about

this because.

I mean, Neil, you are you are

sorry, Manish, you know more

about actually, you know, Neil,

you know more about babies and

doctoring the managers. You must

do. Yeah. Anyway.

So.

Twins.

Generally speaking, arrive

early.

And generally speaking, they come

out in the sunroof.

So yes, we sort of knew they're

going to come out the sunroof

rather than arrive naturally.

And we had a date.

There was a date when they're

going to arrive.

And being twins, that doesn't

really about two weeks before

that date.

I'd been into Watford on a

Saturday morning.

And bought a whole stack of car

magazines to see me through the

weekend.

And I was really pleased with

myself because we're just I knew

at some point quite soon life is

going to change. So I thought I'm

going to buy all the car magazines

I can go and get the car clean

vacuum it out because in two

weeks time, this is all going

to change.

Yeah. And then when I got back

home, Lynn said.

I think it's now.

I think it's coming now.

And I said.

No, they're not.

No, no, I've got the next two

weeks planned.

I've got all these car magazines

to read.

I've got plans for the rest for

the rest of my natural life,

which is what I saw it.

I wasn't a swim sink really.

I can't I can't imagine how I

felt this now.

I've got two fantastic boys

and wonderful family.

It's just, you know, it's the

greatest gift of life.

I was sort of a reluctant

father.

So the idea of them coming two

weeks early was sort of, well,

hang on a minute.

I need some I need a notice of

that.

No, no, no, no.

No, I didn't get that memo.

So they were because

they were premature and they

were quite a bit early.

Cameron had been underneath.

So they come out the sunroof.

Happens really quickly, actually,

of anybody who's been there

for sort of that moment.

They put the modesty screen

over and there

was a lot of a lot of

preamble and getting, you know,

Lynn ready for it, blah, blah,

blah, blah.

And then Blake said, right, okay,

we're ready.

I was like, okay.

And then literally within

seconds, which was Cameron, he

came out first, was there.

And then it was like this three

minute hiatus.

I was thinking,

I've got an I've got an invoice

for two.

You've only produced one.

There's another one in there.

There are only so many places it

can be that you want to hand

looking. And then they came out

second.

They were in there for two

weeks.

So I read all the car magazines

must have vacuumed the car and

polished it about a million times

before I knew the Sunday morning

what for any department

near us.

And that was the

start of that car being

the happiest part of our family

really. I did everything with it.

I did.

It was the car I learned

to know by agreeing in.

Because in these days, 20 years

ago, this is so 2002,

2000, what year 2002,

I was learning the ring.

So I would drive it out.

For a tourist fun day when you could

do to his fun days

with a fantastic lady,

Gabby Rusen, who was sort of a peer

of.

Sabine Schmitz at the time, they were

the two female hot shoes

at the ring.

She was the then partner of Dirk

Shoisman, a dear friend of ours.

And she was brilliant, very, very

undecided, tall,

but very, very undecided.

We eventually asked her to join

the catering thing that we were

doing. She said, no, those things

do play dangerous.

So it went to the ring.

It taught me how to drive the ring.

It went on holiday.

It had dogs in it.

It had my newborn sons

in it.

And so for that reason, it's very

hard to imagine any other car

usurping that in my life

as the car became part

of our family.

Have you ever seen it again?

Would you buy it back to my

brother?

Very good. I had it for about three

years and I sold it to my

brother and he had it for another

three or so years.

So I did

regret selling it.

I'm trying to think what I got

into. It would have been.

I'm trying to think what it went

into. It probably went into a

discovery or secondhand

Range Rover or something.

And I always missed it because

it wasn't. It was a sport, not

an M sport. M sport kind of

can a bit later.

So yeah, so I think it's

probably gone to the great

Bavarian, Moteshverkan

thing in the sky.

But yeah, that would be mine.

Poor old Finley, who came out

second and was lost somewhere in

his mother's pelvis is actually

producing his podcast.

I mean, so God knows what he's

thinking.

There you go.

We're glad you finally popped

out of it.

Manish.

If this was from personal

experience, I could only ever

really talk about two cars.

But there is a car that's part

of the family. It's a poly

extended family.

But when

I first went to

Tobago, it was

spring 2003.

And that's parents

back in, I think it was 1972.

Her father is

Trinidadian, but his family

always had land on Tobago,

always had land there.

They had the family home in

Trinidad, but they had land

that they parceled off over

the years to pay for school

fees and less than that.

But in 1972, he was

able to buy

an estate.

He was a lawyer at Texaco

and he used to run

the Caribbean for them.

And it's a very

beautiful house. It's an old

plantation called the Franklin's

estate. It was the

foundations were laid in 1776.

And I was loved going to the house

because it's got these Jurassic

Park white gates, I mean,

big, 30 feet high.

And on the side,

Franklin's estate 1776.

Now, I remember the very first

time I went there.

And

in the there's a kind of

the garage is really just a

giant shed.

And there's a wonderful white

long wheel based Land Rover

from the early 70s, which did

all the hard work.

But next to it, it's my

mother-in-law's.

I mean, she passed away

sadly a couple of years ago,

but it was her car.

An absolutely beautiful 1975

Peugeot 504 brake,

the estate was good.

Yeah, cool.

In white.

And I had

first of all, she was always very

cool because she was German.

We'd always wear Liberty

blouse and some combination of

either a cream skirt or a white

skirt, you know, sunglasses.

And she was a terrific driver,

actually. And she drove.

I mean, Tobago's wrote certainly,

you know, they're probably not

the finest, many of them, but

she was she was fantastic, very

confident driver, very good

driver.

And I remember that very first

year, seeing her drive this

car and she'd had it, I guess

by then for almost 30 years.

And this thing was it was

fantastic. They looked after

it. So, you know, this thing

was this thing was washed.

It was cleaned.

There was a 30 year old car

a few miles on it.

No air conditioning because

the air conditioning in the

70s and 80s there was just

leave your windows down.

And she used it.

She used it until really,

I guess it was about the

mid early 2000s, 2005.

And I remember they couldn't

sell it. They didn't want to

sell it.

So they parked it in the garage

and she bought, which I

thought was rather sad at the

time, a 2004

Nissan AD

estate in silver because

that's that's the slight

problem with the Caribbean.

If it's effectively just

completely populated

with refurbed Japanese

cars, God knows where they

actually come from about China.

Who knows? They basically

clean them up a little bit, make

sure they work and sell, send

them out there.

And she drove that.

I remember when Dashi was a

baby, all the same

experience that you've both

described, the the

sick and the tobogganian

sand, the sweat,

the milk, the dropped

ice cream.

I mean, you know, all of

that. It would have been

wonderful if it had been the

Peugeot because I think that

would have been a really fitting

final five years for that car.

But sadly, it sat next to the

Land Rover. The Land Rover did

get used.

The Peugeot didn't.

But that was

and still is it's still there.

Still there. She's gone.

But that white car is still

there. It's not cleaned.

It's quite rusty now.

And but I have to

say, when I go back,

it's one of the happy things

looking at that because I

remember in her

how much you've been kind of

in her early 70s.

Just chucking this thing

around shopping.

And it was just I bet you went

back there. Stick a booster on

it.

You were actually I bet she

does.

If you'll get the 504 in

Africa was considered

to be the mechanical equal of

a W123 Mercedes.

It had the same reputation.

And it's amazing how brand

images change, isn't it?

The people don't spot this

that a 504 was just as robust

as a one, two, three

Mercedes.

The suspension travel on it

was just the most incredible

thing.

How powerful was the driver's

seat? The driver's seat

incredibly comfortable in a

fire.

It was incredible. The pothold

when there was the rainy

season and Tobago is

is the summer and it basically

finishes and now kind of

water. And when it rains

there, I mean to that vertical

Caribbean rain and it just

washes roads away.

And I'm telling you, I mean

the potholds are literally

eight inches, 10 inches.

Sometimes you get these ruts

which go on for yards and

yards and yards.

This baby, which I mean, it

was like driving in a Land Rover

over these things.

The French had some

shit sourced.

I mean, suss, didn't they?

In terms of engineering back in

the day, God, they did.

One of the problems with being

a motor in journeys was

because the whole point of doing

it was you got free cars.

So, you know, the basic

calculation to

rewind was you thought, well,

I could go into the real

world and earn

five times as much.

But I only spend it on cars.

So I might as well be a motor

engineer because I get free

cars and I'll get some money.

What you don't accept is or

understand is that you're not

really a functioning human

beings. You couldn't have got

a proper job. So you're a bit

fucked anyway.

So and the free cars that

you've got weren't really

yours. And did you always

have the one you wanted at

the right time? No, because

you weren't seen enough on the

magazine and you got paid 12

grand, which wasn't really

enough to eat.

But still,

you had a great turnover of

cars. And it meant that you

didn't have the permanence.

You didn't build relationships

really with cars. You built them

over. If you're lucky enough to

have a long term test car for

a year, you could build quite a

rapport with that car, but it

wasn't a member of the family

really.

Or you or you put it into

that role, you will probably

trun a bit too hard.

So, you know, the cars that I

drove my children home from

hospital when they were born

were all all different.

And I remember a C 55

estate was one of them,

a black one that that

hit a badger and then became

an ex C 55 estate.

And there was a W

2

12

E 250

CDI.

The one that came back in that

is about 50 hours that way at

the moment. I think there was

that. I don't know what the

my daughter came back in.

I think she might have come

back in a

or she have come back in.

I've got no idea. There you

go. So I don't have that

relationship with those cars.

But I do have had cars

that have become part of the

family. And I and it's a

really tricky one to

to decide. And actually

I like living in the

present when it comes to

cars and not very good

living that much in my past.

And yesterday, my

my eldest returned from

a European adventure,

his first European adventure

in his in a car.

He's got a golf mark.

He's got Mark seven golf

quite not the are the one

below it.

But it's 13 plates and

100 now done 145,000

miles. We took a gamble on it.

And he's just done, I think

three and a half, 4,000

miles. You went to some

festival in Romania

via just about everywhere.

You wouldn't want to, you

know, you wrote a piece of

paper. You go, oh, why

are you going there? That's

trouble.

And he rolled through the

gates.

We're in Cornwall at the

moment. He rolled through

the gates where we're

staying.

And this car just

looks fabulous.

It's had the shit kicked out

of it. The windscreen got

smashed in Romania.

It's got a big old war wound

down one side.

It's been on an adventure

and he has bonded with it.

He just he's had that

experience with this car.

And I now know he's going to

talk about that car the way

you guys just spoke about

your car and just sit there

yesterday.

And he hadn't really stopped

driving it for like four days.

He's raced back from Romania

with all sorts of adventures

and scrapes with the police.

And he sat down. He had a

beer last night or glass

of wine.

And it was just it was just

ticking away in the background

next to us.

Brilliant.

I said to him, let's go look

at it.

Let's go look at all the war

wounds. And I just

that's my new family member,

I think. I just love the

fact that I've seen him

build a relationship with

this thing. I mean, it looks

awful.

It's covered in dentists

and it's missing this and

that. But but

it's it's been used.

And I suppose I think cars

at their very best are

there to make memories.

That's what they do for us.

They make people like us

memories.

And I it's really powerful

to see some

you know, one of your offspring

that you love dearly go on

that on that initial

adventure.

And that will embolden him to

go and have other memory

making episodes.

So dear one hundred forty five

thousand mile golf that is, I

think, close to shitting

itself.

If you go now, you've done

your job.

What a job it's done.

The irony is

maybe we're just being old

farts, but he sort of owns

peak car, didn't he?

He doesn't know it yet, really.

But if he

starts all that, I'm going to

trade it in for the new one and

a Renault electric or whatever.

You know, he should you should

over the years do it up

for him.

And just in ten years time, he

realized that he, you know,

he owns.

Every man's equivalent of a

Ferrari Testarossa, didn't he?

I mean, he's it's it's peak

is that maybe that's the

upslide to the to that

first part of our conversation

today is that, you know, if you

look at if you look at what's

been made in the last ten years

by this German country,

it's astonishing how much value

there is out there.

I can't when I bought that

thing.

I had a choice of that or a

one liter golf and they were

the same money because at

that point, you know, it was

locked down and everyone wanted

this and that and they wanted

cheap cars.

No, I wanted these things.

They could just sit on four

courts. I thought, we'll

take a punt on that, we'll

find a way.

Good punt.

And I, I, yeah, I think

what we'll do is just get

another one where this one out

get another one.

It is, you say it's peak car.

Well, can I just ask me

Vincent passed his test

and I said to him, you know,

what what car, you know, what

you're thinking. He said, I

just like what Arthur's got

a golf mark seven.

When I was just about to ask

you, has Vincent passed his

test? He did.

Brilliant. Yeah, he did.

He did. He passed it first

time. He's the only only one

out of the three that passed the

first time. So it's really,

so he's going to be sitting

here in the next month.

I've got exactly the same

thing. Same instructor.

Neil, of course, recommended

Ralph.

Yeah. He's been taking touch.

Yeah.

Exactly the same kind of,

you know, same issue.

Yeah. It will come to you.

I think great idea, golf

marks seven.

Yeah, basically it is.

It is the car really sat in

it in this thing last night

and it's got two.

It's the not 7.5.

It's got two dials, got

a perfectly good screen with all

the stuff you want.

Everything works.

It's a pieka.

So everywhere you know, you put

your hand under the steering

column, it's all smooth surfaces.

Everything needs to be fabric is

fabric. It needs to be hard

wearing plastic is plastic.

And if you get in a modern

Volkswagen, if you sit in an

ID seven,

you know, maybe maybe

that's another.

It's it's not it's not the

same thing.

OK, let's do a very quick

Formula One half term report

because we've not spoken about

Formula One for a couple of weeks.

And I think now they're all on

their summer breaks.

Some of them some of them using

that to put up extremely stinky

social media posts.

Some of them disappearing off face

of the planet.

I know what I'd do.

Let's have a little thing about

those half term reports managed.

You can go first.

Very quickly, I put five lines

down.

Papaya rules were

ridiculed, but

they seem to be very, very

healthy rules.

I mean, those two guys, they

are competing to the edge of

their abilities, as we pointed out

last time, to within 10

centimeters of the edge of their

abilities.

But it feels like a healthy and

strong rivalry.

And I think McLaren.

Are sitting pretty.

They've had a reasonably

wonderful.

You never have a flawless.

You never have flawless season.

No one ever has.

But it's about as flawless as

it could be given these rules.

You know, they don't have a two

second a lap advantage over every

other car at every Grand Prix.

These rules are so weird, Mr.

Cooper's talked about the tires,

the weight, the arrow.

It's all very odd and very

random, but just overall,

I mean, they and they've also

provided us with a fantastic.

The last time I was as

excited as this going into kind

of the second half of a season

since we've had these summer

breaks is actually Lewis versus

Nico in 2016.

I actually, I actually really

enjoyed that kind of intra

team rivalry.

Obviously, Max versus Lewis was

probably the most exciting

season kind of in more modern

times. Twenty one.

So that was point one.

Max is staying at Red Bull.

So Mr. Harris and I were spot on

with that. And that makes me

really rather happy.

Despite I'm sorry.

Yeah. Well, I mean,

yes, you're right.

I do. Neil did bet me an

onion barge. He'd leave.

That means you can't really

have believed it in your

soul.

So that's that's quite

amusing.

But Christian Warner's gone.

I think we've got to just

reflect on that.

Did we think he would

survive into this season?

I certainly didn't think I

thought once he'd got into

this season, he probably

probably managed to wing it

and survive. But he's

gone.

Ferrari.

The number of predictions I

started to have a quick look

at some very famous driver's

predictions about which

would be the team to be

this year. And many of them

said Ferrari.

Ferrari would be a dominant

team. It was the strongest

driver pairing.

They were looking really,

really good for the title for

the first time in years.

But also to add to your point,

and this is really important

when talking about Ferrari.

They finished the season with

the fastest car last year.

They did.

They did. Actually,

Joe Twyman.

I spent a little bit of time

with him last week on something

completely unrelated.

And I did bring that up.

And I said, why did they switch

to this pushrod front suspension

system?

They had a fantastic car.

They decided to change the

philosophy of the car.

And you know what he said to me?

He said, Lewis has always

had at Mercedes,

or Lewis has recently

had a pushrod system.

And he wondered whether maybe

that was Ferrari trying to

build a car that would

accommodate Lewis.

I have no idea whether that's

true. It was a really

interesting point he made

while we were having a chat.

So, you know, it's another,

you know, I said it before.

I think it's very tough to see

Charles in his, I think, seventh

or eighth year at Ferrari

as an all-so-round, making lots

of money, but really not

chance of winning a championship.

And he's got to be really

worried about next year now.

It's just been too many years,

too many rule changes.

They've just never done it.

And he's got Lewis Hamilton's

a teammate. Lewis,

you know, just hasn't, sadly,

produced the goods.

You can say he hasn't clicked

with the car or whatever.

I don't know.

But the bottom line is

Formula One's results-based

business. You're compared to your

teammate. You're compared to the

people who come before you.

He hasn't produced it.

That's it.

I thought

that

I have a real thing about

before the season, I think

again, Mr.

Cooper and I talked about this.

Total Wolf studying the data

with Kimmy Antonelli.

I think that's absolutely fine.

I think Formula One is data

driven.

I think there's lots of data

on drivers.

I just think replacing Lewis

Hamilton with data.

I'm not sure it was the

smartest move in the world.

I will believe to the day I die

that had he given

Lewis a two-year deal,

Lewis would be at Mercedes.

He would still be at Mercedes.

I think the one plus one just

allowed John Elcan that little

glimmer of light to leap in

and grab Lewis.

And I think that's sad.

And I would say Mercedes

are being very cocky about

2026.

I think they're looking forward

to the engine rules.

They're going around telling

everyone they've got the car.

They've got the thing. I've

even heard it's not even the

engine. It's Petronus who've

made a super fuel because next

year we're going to be on

recipe fuels.

You know, and so let's see.

And my last point was Alpine

look to me like a team that's

going to be sold.

That really is the the big

last thing I do wonder who

will if someone will buy them

who will buy them because it

just the stuffing has gone out

of that.

You know, it's the old Renault

team, the old Benetton team,

the old Tolman team.

And it just looks dreadful.

It just looks dreadful.

So that's it. It's my

half-term report.

Chris Cooper.

I wrote four words.

Changing of the guard.

Yeah.

Changing of the guard.

And I think you've covered most

of what guard is being changed.

I think that could be could be

more.

It does feel like as big a shift

as Michael retiring at the end

of 06.

Mica going.

How can you hack it in blah,

blah. It feels like a real sort

of seminal moment and maybe

not before time because we like

change and we like looking

forward and blah, blah.

So it's all good.

The papaya rules.

I I tease those

before because I I

tend to live in a corporate

world where simple things are

given bullshit names.

And I hate that.

If it's simple thing, give it

a simple name.

I'm slightly more sympathetic

to it now having read a bit

more about the extent of the

cultural change

in McLaren.

But I challenge you one thing

Manish.

We won't know whether those rules

are working until

it's at the business end of the

season and one of them is going

to lose big.

Until then, let's just hold our

judgment on one of those rules

are working yet.

They haven't been tested yet.

I think that's fair enough.

Yeah.

But then again.

By definition, these rules

always go wrong, don't they?

They're they're they're

intended to go wrong.

Neil Clifford.

You know, I was it feels like

today, actually, but yesterday,

I was at Laguna Saker.

Watching the vintage

reunion, amazing car racing,

which I'll talk about later.

But Zach Brown, my connection

to this little section,

Zach Brown was there

racing.

One of his amazing car

collection, one of the IROC

cars.

Camaro or whatever.

Not the I always think IROC

wrongly is Porsche.

You get attached to all those

multicolored, smarty,

you know, three liter, nine

elevens, don't you?

But actually, IROC clearly

wasn't that.

A good friend of ours,

Dario Frankiti, was was

also racing in that.

You see all these fabulous

big fat American things

with hunt and fit a party

and Stuart's written on.

I mean, bring that back.

It was basically superstars

for racing drivers.

Yes.

Amazing.

I don't remember it really.

And I don't know what I was

doing riding around

chucking stones of parking

on the grifter, probably.

But when when when

when all that when all that

shit was happening,

I remember the one the M1.

I mean, that came a bit

later. Video coming soon,

video coming soon.

I remember a little bit.

But I don't remember the IROC

thing. Presumably that wasn't

because it was F1, was it?

Maybe that was something.

Yeah, anyway, there was

Zach Brown, what a dude

living his best life

because he's obviously doing a

brilliant job in his day job.

But he's also enjoying himself

racing around Laguna

Seca in an IROC car.

I just I just hope

that McLaren win win both

driver and manufacturers.

And they will.

Yeah, I just think

British company.

I know we're an international

podcast.

We shouldn't be biased

towards British things.

But I am.

There was one thing I was just

going to say about McLaren,

just in the half term thing.

I don't know if you remember,

there was a very big deal made

of a big change in the IROC

rules and McLaren.

We're going to get completely

stuffed by that change.

And this was the one that Ferrari

were waiting for.

Who's won every race since then?

You know, they weren't worried

at all.

They built that car so cleverly,

so legally, so kind of in such

as a clever bulletproof way,

it's really understanding it.

I think by the way,

one big ingredient is a man

called Rob Marshall.

Peter Prodrimer doesn't get

something enough about.

But Rob Marshall is a very,

very special man.

Rob Marshall is Johnathan

and we produce.

I was with someone,

I'm in a cup of tea,

who's a good friend of Adrian Newey.

Yeah.

And I don't have the sort of

the knowledge or the brains

to ask him a really good

question.

But I said,

will Adrian deliver a great car

for Aston Martin?

And he's like,

absolutely he will.

He's all over it.

You just wait.

And I'm like,

oh, that's quite exciting.

OK, half-term report.

I didn't want to mention this.

And I think we've covered most of this

as I think Chris rightly points out

and Manish has covered most of it.

Lance Stroll and Alonzo are equal on points

in the World Championship at the moment.

Yes.

That's a weird stat.

Even though in 27 outings,

I think he's been outqualified

by Alonzo or this every session,

every time they've been out in the kind of session,

Alonzo has been quicker.

But they're equal on points.

But if Adrian Newey is going to produce

this absolute rocket sled,

can you keep Lance in there?

I mean, we'll have to do that.

Chris, but you are forgetting

that Alonzo is the most unlucky driver

in the world ever.

Don't you start.

This is why.

I think Ferrari gutted for them.

Papaya rules.

I like Chris is the same.

It's a bit like the Mike Tyson quotation.

I'm sure it's a misquotation,

but everyone's got a plan

till they get punched in the face.

It's a bit like that, isn't it?

And I think we've seen some really good racing.

I haven't celebrated this season enough.

We've seen lots going on.

And maybe isn't it great

when you have the best driver on the grid

in not the fastest car

because he's not going to win a championship

and he's not going to win many races,

but he's just going to cause mayhem.

He's going to eat as well.

Whenever he comes up behind or he's on the track,

people are scared of him.

In that respect, he is the new center, isn't he?

They just see him and they,

Lewis jumped off the road in Hungary

to get out of his way.

He literally drove off the track.

So I think it's been a really good season.

I think generally,

the Formula 1 family can pat themselves in the back

and go, you've done a fucking good job.

He's come back stronger.

Most importantly, a dear friend of this podcast,

Jonathan Wheatley, who's been the boss

over what will be Audi next year.

What a job he's done.

It just shows you that people's policy arrive

and they make a difference.

And also, I mean,

he's also just bought a little Audi or a Quattro ready for him.

I've seen that, yeah.

Browning next year and it's a work of art.

So, Jonathan, enjoy your summer break

and enjoy that beautiful car.

So let's move on to...

Ah, now.

We're going to go back to our American correspondent,

our Car Week,

California correspondent at Northern California,

Neil Clifford, who...

He was supposed to be working last week,

but he actually downed tools to pick up his dictaphone

and his super eight camera and head and look

at a trepid reporter like Uncle Travelling Man

from Fraggle Rock.

He went off to go and see what was going on

over in them car week.

What was it like?

Look, for me,

for me, it's the perfect little week's holiday really.

It's sort of...

How can I...

I haven't got any real notes on this,

but it's sort of glass debris for cars.

It's...

I always struggle with actual normal holidays a bit

because, you know, you've got to sort of relax

and enjoy them, haven't you?

Because, you know, you paid money,

you got a swimming pool,

you got, you know, your family's there,

you're not supposed to be working.

But, you know, I'm always like,

oh, first three days are all right.

And then you sort of want to go home

and do stuff a little bit.

But so for me, being...

I bombed around America for a week

or 10 days and then ended up in LA.

My family come out to LA.

We zoomed around LA.

We talked about that last week.

Yeah.

Good and bad, amazing drives,

bit of a breakdown.

And then we set off for Carmel.

We set off for, you know,

the grapes of Raat country,

this sort of 400 miles north of Los Angeles.

Beautiful countryside, 0.1.

And maybe I should add,

everyone should go and do this thing.

You know, I did it for 48 hours last week.

Last year.

And then I thought, shit,

why aren't I doing this every year?

For me, it's definitely going to try to be on my agenda

because you can do it.

You can do it how you want.

You can do it expensive and posh and lovely

with all these Ponzi car shows and Pebble Beach.

Actually, I've been twice,

never been to Pebble Beach yet.

I just don't get that.

It's more about the community of people.

It's thousands and thousands of people like us

that are just showing up from all around the world.

A lot of UK people,

a lot of friends of mine that are there,

young, amazing car people.

And everyone just shows up and you can do it how you want.

You can just hang out in Carmel,

which is a beautiful little town on the sea.

You know, you couldn't make up how pretty it is.

All these obviously lovely, gorgeous houses,

but you can walk along the beach for a couple of hours.

You can walk around the little town.

There's car shit everywhere.

There's a 9-Eleven meeting up in that car park.

The Mercedes-Benz owners club of America

is at that petrol station.

There's Camaros over there.

There's the bloke from WhatsApp

who bought 9993 GT2.

Yeah.

Yep.

He's a good lad.

He's just driving around with his mates in 993 GT2.

Brilliant.

You know, eating apple pie and having coffee.

There's 11 F40s up in that car park

because all the F40 dudes are just having a coffee up there.

You know, it's just...

We didn't really get to Monterey that much.

I didn't get to any auctions.

I think the auction thing

is a whole nother level of discussion.

You know, you're talking to all your people

in the industry about,

oh, wow, the 275's gone off a bit.

It's all about the 90s cars now.

And oh, shit, I should have bought the 911 R

even though it didn't have a 911 engine.

And then there's all these, you know,

250 California Spider long wheelbase record.

You could literally do it as you want, can't you?

There's amazing restaurants.

You can't beat America for a breakfast.

Let's just put that out there.

That's a T-shirt.

The three of us, you know, eggs over easy,

bacon, hash browns,

but then a side of pancakes in the middle.

And after you're halfway through your eggs,

aren't you, you're full,

but you want to still eat the pancakes,

you know, you still want to eat the pancakes

even though you're full on the bloody eggs.

Neil, does it work

because it's not very, very crowded like a Goodwood?

Well, the only...

It's not good, you know,

the only thing that you could compare to Goodwood

but you can't compare

because the tickets are 10 times the price.

Let's put that out there.

Is that the quail,

let's talk about the quail,

which is an incredibly beautifully put on event

by the peninsula group,

which they own this amazing country club called the quail.

And, you know, it's a thousand quid for a ticket, right?

So let's just make a point

that it's a lot, a lot, a lot of money,

which therefore means that it's not crowded

like the Festival of Speed,

which is also an amazing event

and it's a hundred quid for a ticket.

So...

That's sort of what Goodwood charges for hospitality,

but with all the crowds chucked in as well.

Yeah, well, maybe they need a posh day

that's only a thousand pound of ticket people,

but you cannot fault,

you know, it is faultless, the quail.

There's loads of amazing cars being launched.

You know, I was there for the GMA launch of those two cars.

There's the Tuthill Beach Buggy thing.

There's a new Lamborghini that you can't pronounce.

There's, you know, there's a Bentley thing.

There's a Rolls-Royce thing.

There's food everywhere that's obviously free

because it's all part of the gig.

It's all part of the ticket.

There's drink everywhere.

There's jets flying over.

You know, it's an amazing thing,

but that's the only day that maybe is, let's say,

is restricted due to your bank account.

Let's be honest.

Everything else is just open for everybody.

Cool.

You can go to Laguna Seca

as I did, feels like today, but yesterday,

you can hang out there in this amazing race circuit

and meet all these fabulous old dudes

that have owned their 356 Speedster since 1959.

I've been racing it 47.

You know, you don't, you don't quite get that in the UK.

You know, you get it in a very oily way

if you go to the Cop Hill Climb,

where a bloke built a car in a shed in 1972

and has been racing it ever since.

Revival is a different thing

because, you know,

they're all basically pretty much brand new cars

built by Adrian Newey, aren't they?

They don't really, there's a...

Oh, how could you possibly say such a thing, Neil?

You know, they've got different engines, different,

you know, if you want to be competitive at Revival,

it's a different game

and actually it's proper racing Revival.

I don't really...

Look at the FIA papers for the grid of the TT.

They're worth triggers and broom appear quite a lot.

Yeah.

So it's, it's, it's, they're both amazing,

but I would, I would...

I mean, the highlight,

the highlight for me, which does sound poncy

because it is poncy,

I was invited to dinner

at Clint Eastwood's ranch house.

He now lives down on the, on the coast in a smaller house,

but the house that he lived in for 30 years,

which it felt like being in Spaghetti Western.

There's like 600 doors in this house.

Can you imagine someone jumping out of it with a,

you know, with a gun and a, a leather hat?

He was a mayor, wasn't he?

He was a mayor of Carmel.

He was?

Yeah.

And this, this house,

and it was a singer dinner

and invited by the lovely people from Singer,

who, you know, own the singer.

So I really put it out there now

as being a bit of a knobby person,

but to be in that, you know,

this is a boy from Portsmouth

with one O level,

who was a bit thick and looked out the window a lot

at school

and suddenly you're in Clint Eastwood's house

having dinner.

It's pretty fucking amazing, isn't it?

You know,

I'm, I'm,

you realize how lucky you are.

So I think it's just great.

You can go and do it all you want,

fly to San Francisco,

rent a car,

drive there for two or three days.

The scenery is amazing.

It's our people.

There's always,

it's about the people that you,

you know, or you meet

and you have a chat and,

you know, have a big breakfast,

have a coffee,

sit in Carmel for five hours

and you just see Lamborghini SE30

driving past, you know,

in the Jamiroquai car

and then there's seven F40s

and there's seven singers

and there's an old Mercedes

and there's a, you know,

an aquatic car.

It's just going on the whole time.

So for me,

it's a perfect holiday

and

can't beat it really.

Did you see the,

sorry,

I just,

I just wondered about the Gordon Murray.

You know,

the,

the kind of

the very special edition

remake of the F1 GT-R.

Yeah,

the thing at the top.

Oh, is that mounted?

That has absolutely blown me away.

Well done.

I mean,

getting that sticky back plastic

quite so quickly.

That's the McLaren right

and that's the Gordon Murray one.

No other way around,

isn't it?

Yes,

other way around.

That's amazing up front.

It's amazing

and the LM24 car,

which,

you know,

again is,

I think without the fan,

it looks better.

Let's be a bit controversial for me.

I agree.

I think both those cars,

what a British company,

what an amazing job they're doing.

I know,

I know Chris might have had a tinkering one

at some point recently.

That,

you know,

that engine,

the engineering of that car

is all bloody fabulous,

really.

So they should be celebrated.

I can't wait to,

I can't wait for Chris to drive that.

I really hope

whoever's bought all five

gives you one for an afternoon.

I cannot wait.

I don't know.

Well,

that might be possible.

There's the,

I've driven this,

I've driven the standard low-powered one.

This is interesting.

So you,

so I think we work

and very,

we're really proud to work with car and classic,

but we have to mention the fact that the RM had a pretty stunning

auction over there,

which I think

did a couple of things for me.

First,

it absolutely demonstrated that America is in a very different

financial place to Europe right now

for the car market.

And it also demonstrated that

physical auction is just exciting things on the,

you know,

there's all sorts of nonsense goes on in the room.

They are quite cool.

Maybe we need to help car and classic do a physical auction.

There's an idea.

Let's just a challenge laid down for you guys.

We can do it,

the car and classic

and Chris Harris and friends podcast way.

But there was one car that

that sold

for $26 million that was extraordinary because it was a new car.

So it was a Daytona SP3

Ferrari with in a split livery.

What was special about the car and Ferrari dimension is was the

first time the factory cars come out with the word Ferrari

painted on it like that.

They've never done that before.

Really never sanctioned it for,

but to have Ferrari written across.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's quite garish.

Anyhow,

there's a bit of a there's something going on there.

It's quite interesting.

So a friend of mine just sent me this in case you'll be

discussing the $26 million Daytona SP3

that was auctioned off on your podcast this week.

Dot, dot, dot.

Assuming the buyer is American.

This is a 501 C3 charity.

So anything above actual price is tax deductible,

whatever actual prices.

So if you take 26 million deduct 4 million in value,

you have a deduction of 22 million,

say 37% on your federal tax bill.

Another 13% of you live in California.

So that's 50%.

So now you've saved $11 million buying that car

and the cost of that car is 15 million still expensive,

but you probably be in Ferrari's good books for a long,

long time.

It's win-win.

And a full carbon SP3 was about 6 million without taxes.

What a crazy world we live in.

So was there some donation to charity on that?

Yes.

It was, wasn't there?

Yes, I was talking to it.

I was actually on the plane trying to get into my bloody Wi-Fi

to watch the RM auction for my mate Harvey who works there

and I wanted to see how the 9-11R went

and then I was desperately thinking,

oh shit, why didn't I even think seriously about that?

But I don't think it's got the,

so it hasn't got the right engine or some bloody thing.

And then I saw the 26 million for that SP3.

It's because it was all,

there was a, because it's, you're putting it into a charity.

Ferrari were there.

There was a whole bunch of executives in the front row

from Ferrari.

As soon as the car sold, they all got out and walked off.

Of course they did.

There was a Ferrari charity thing.

Can I just, just a quick, quick,

if you get a moment in your little summer break,

the three of you or any of our listeners,

read the Hildebrand rarity.

It's a very short James Bond story in Fleming rotor.

I can't remember which he was early 60s.

It's a fantastic story.

Bond is basically bored.

He's in the Seychelles with a mate

and he gets to crew a very early super yacht.

And it is very linked to Americans,

charity, revenge, murder.

It's a fab, it's 25 pages.

You won't put it down and the Hildebrand rarity is a fish.

Just, just, just read it.

You will not link for the audible version.

I will send you.

I promise to send you that.

We've gone an hour and 12 minutes now.

We've still got.

I think we might need to just call a two car garage now

and Neil's jet lag to hell.

So can we roll the next two things on the agenda

this week?

This afternoon I spent the whole afternoon

working out cheese or car.

Yeah, but cheese or cars.

Cheese or cars is not going to date.

Is it?

Can we do it next week?

I'm glad I spent the afternoon doing that.

Okay.

We're going to do cheese or cars now.

No, no, we'll do it next week.

It's been, it's been, it's been a jet lag to hell.

And I'm good.

I'm good.

I'm, I'm doing it next week.

Now we've, now we've teased it.

Chris Cooper.

No, no, we're going to use two car garage.

We'll have to come back to that some other occasion.

Wait there for next week.

Chris Cooper has done another one of his famous quizzes

which apparently has been plagiarized by something like

Buttlin's in Pontefract or something.

And they were, they were found to be in a quiz night

that someone was doing service station or cheese.

So you are.

So we're going to do car or cheese, but it'll be next week.

Okay.

So moving on to the two car garage in association with

current classic, who is going to do a physical auction with

us at car week next year.

Yeah.

Can I just say on car week?

Can I, because I didn't, I want to say this a moment ago.

Yes.

Um, the quail aside, which I actually doesn't sound, if I

was half expecting to say it's 10 grand a ticket.

Actually, everything about car week, the whole shebang

makes me think, why would you, why would you not go there

rather than Goodwood?

Honestly.

Well, Goodwood is also brilliant.

I think, I think it's, it's like, it's like saying cheese

or cheesecake.

No, I don't think it is.

I think it's, I think it's gone beyond that point.

I, I, but it's not about Goodwood.

Just about car week.

I think car week just sound, I mean, my, I think it's

brilliant.

It sounds like almost too good to be true.

It sounds just all of the stuff you were putting on

your Instagram and everyone else is putting on.

I just thought that's how it should be.

That's really, it's really lovely.

It's because California climate is bloody great.

So you wake up and you've got a bit of cloud on

the mountains and then every morning at 11 30, it

all goes blue smells good over.

It always smells good over there as well.

It's 25 degrees.

It's not 35.

So you can walk about.

You're not sweating your nuts off and you, you

know, there's, there's no shit restaurants because

if they're shit, no one goes to them and they

close, right?

So you can eat, you can eat anywhere.

You can sit outside.

It's very, very, very casual.

I think that's the key point and you can just,

you know, go to the aquarium in Monterey.

You can go for a little drive along, you know, big sir.

You can just hang out and calm out.

You can walk the beaches.

You can, and there's just cars fucking everywhere.

It says what, what's not good about that?

It's brilliant.

Right.

All of you out there listening.

The, that's your holiday next year.

You're not going to go to Buddy Magaloo for

wherever you go.

You're going to car weekend.

Yeah.

Now to car garage.

I've got my bloody hoops with me ever.

Yeah.

It's been 40 years since Live 8 and you're reflecting on

how things seem so much simpler in the 1980s.

Pick two cars from the 80s that have opened that spirit.

Budget 35 grand.

I'm going first.

Yeah.

Don't ask me if I've done it.

Okay.

Go on.

I've smashed this out of the park.

Okay.

First of all, Fiat Strada Abarth 130 TC.

Oh, that is very good.

Actually a Ritmo based on Strada and you buy it for that

Ricaro front seat, a pair of which I've just bought

for another product of mine.

But that is what a car that is.

Amazing bit of kit.

It's got the holes in the seats.

Yeah.

It's got the hole in the seat.

Yeah.

I'll get you.

I'll get you a bit of seat porn now.

Hold on.

What's this?

Where are I?

6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

I was working in the Fiat garage when that came out.

When you saw the seat the first time,

you're like what?

Yeah.

That's straight out of a racing car.

Yeah.

There they are.

It was the first seat with a hole in it.

I ever saw.

Yes.

You see that?

Yeah.

Amazing.

Right.

Second car.

So you've got your sports car.

That's the thrash around the lanes.

And then I've actually emailed the seller of this car

about buying it.

But I didn't.

But it's the poverty spec.

W126 in 300 SE format.

Look at that.

This one is a joy because it's got,

I'm pretty sure this is the one.

It's got cloth inside.

No.

It's got hubcaps, not a lot of wheels, hubcaps.

Can you imagine buying one of the most expensive cars on the road?

It comes with no radio, hubcaps, and a cloth interior.

In front of a wheelbase, though.

Is it an L?

No, it's an SE.

It's an SE.

Is it?

So the combined price is 29 grand.

I've got six grand for when they inevitably shit themselves.

So Chris Cooper, what have you gone for with your 35,000 large?

Well, first of all, there's a mistake we need to point out here.

Live Aid wasn't 40 years ago.

It can't possibly be 40 years ago.

Ridiculous.

I mean, that is just because if it was 40 years ago,

that means during Live Aid, July 1985,

it was less than 40 years since VJ Day, Victory in Japan Day,

which is later this month in August.

Who can remember who was the introducer and announcer

when the concert went live on BBC and radio around the world?

What's the name of the announcer and introducer?

No.

My God.

Do you guys know music?

Of course, but...

Were they up with Bob Donk-Galloff hitting the table or were they somewhere else?

Not Jimmy Savile.

It was Richard Skinner.

No.

The DJ.

Richard Skinner.

Yes.

Who was the artist that played both in Wembley and Philadelphia?

That's a lot of people on the Concord, didn't they?

Yes, Genesis or Phil Collins.

What was the song that was regarded as the best song of the most amazing set?

This is a bit more of a personal opinion.

Was it We Will Rock You by Queen?

No.

Close, though.

Heroes? Heroes?

No.

Queen's got to be the Queen one.

It was Queen, which was the song?

Bomi and Rapsy.

No.

What was the one that absolutely...

It was Radio Gaga.

It was, yeah.

They were doing this, weren't they?

Yes.

That's what brought Queen back into the Consciousness.

I can remember exactly where I was at each part of that day,

because it went from the lunchtime in the morning into the evening.

It's one of those things.

So it's Peacators.

So I would have, I think, right now, there are two cars on the auction

that I think are just Peacators.

This goes, so this will be sort of on auction just before we go on air on Friday.

W123 Merc.

I looked at that.

Gorgeous.

Just look at that.

That was one of them.

And then the other one, I kind of torn.

There were lots of Mercs that I really, really liked.

But then this one, it's manual, S2.

Thank you, S2.

That's so powerful.

That starts in about a week's time.

Nine to eight.

Nine to eight is manual.

Yeah.

That's what I do.

Okay, like that.

No, Clifford.

Okay.

1985, right?

Was it 1985?

Yeah.

The great thing about the car and classic website and app

is you can select your brand and then you can narrow down to eight.

Yes, you can.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Very, very clever, which I've just discovered.

So.

How do you think we cope with this question?

I've just, I've only just discovered it now.

Jaguar, obviously.

Brilliant cars of the 80s.

I'm going XJ 1985.

I just took a photograph of it.

Is that an XJ 40 then or not?

No, 85 was the series three.

Last year.

Last, frankly, the last of the pretty one.

Yeah.

That's XJ 46.

85, 86.

Gold, you can't really see it.

Look at that.

Oh, yeah, we can.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yes.

Look at that.

Absolutely fantastic.

It's probably in the fucking Netherlands.

Oh, no, Hemel Hempstead.

That's just, I could see it.

If I fell on top of the barn, I could see that.

It's always in the fucking Netherlands.

Gold.

It's in Hemel Hempstead.

Going tomorrow.

That's about six miles from me.

And then, so that, how much is that?

I'm not, I'm not in the, I'm not in the auctions.

I'm in the classifieds.

I've been a bit flaky, but nevertheless, there are

plenty of Jaguars in the, in the auction sites.

And then I haven't found this, but I will find it.

And we can post it in the, in the recording.

You're going to get an XJS, aren't you?

You're going to have a Jag four door and then you're

going to have a Jag convertible.

V12, hopefully.

That's only eight grand this little series.

There are a few.

So I can get a nice V12 cab and you need about five

grand on the side for the overheating situation.

But, you know, my brother, my brother was, his mate

was doing the lighting on the main stage and his

mate rang him and said, do you want to come up

to Wembley tomorrow?

I'm working tomorrow and give me a hand with

some lights.

He had no idea what it was.

He spent the whole of the 12 hours in the rafters above

every single gig during the lighting and he didn't

take a fucking camera.

Oh, luckily it has been, I think it was recorded

by somebody.

But no, but you imagine the book view if you would

have taken a big bag of black and white and coda

chrome and a decent camera, you'd have your

time of money, wouldn't you?

Bless him.

He's all right anyway.

But nevertheless, he's, yeah, he's blessed him.

But he was there.

He was there.

He's amazing.

So for me, the 80s car, I wanted this so badly.

I only wanted two cars in the 80s.

It was a Porsche 944.

There's a convertible here.

It's the ST211 horsepower.

I just think, I just thought that was the car.

The convertible, I mean,

it's quite a doctor's car there as well, for some reason.

As you think somewhere in my little soul, I knew.

And then this car, I mean, we've talked about it quite a bit.

But it's the E32 7 Series.

Oh, yes.

I just think this thing, I just think it's such a stunning car.

They would be my absolute 80s dreams, those two.

Well, I don't think we've chosen eight better cars than that.

They are all absolute stunners.

Did you know somewhere quite German, aren't we?

Apart from Neil, where have they gone?

Where have they gone?

Yeah, apart from Neil.

Let's choose some music before we go.

So Chris Cooper, I know that you're still slightly

smarting with about a tonne car.

This means that we will be doing it next week.

You can't cheat.

You can't cheat between now and then and learn the names of people.

We won't.

What?

Jesus.

God, I've got a busy week.

Because it's been quite, not everybody has enjoyed the hot summer

and the sunny summer, particularly my wife is a farmer

and lots of farmers who is grain harvest, most harvest

have finished in this week in the UK because it's been

so hot and dry, yields are down.

So not everyone loves a hot sunny summer, but so with

apologies to that community, I've had this in my head

this week.

It's the Nina Simone cover of Here Comes the Sun.

Brilliant.

Yeah, good tune.

That's the number one Beatles song on Spotify.

Yeah, I prefer the Nina Simone version.

Yeah, it's just a, yeah.

I'm full of shit.

But that, that is, yeah, that's the number one Beatles song,

which I would choose.

Harrison's song as well, isn't it?

Manish, what's your tune going to be?

Well, I'm going to get a little bit of a cheesy clap

from you guys.

But I can't believe we've done 50 in this, in this way.

We've had one week where we haven't done one.

So 51 weeks, I guess next time it's going to be exactly

a year since the new one started.

I don't know if you remember, we were all in Bologna together

when we took that great photo that kind of summed up,

you know, our friendship.

And there's a, I'm going through a phase of listening

to really great 70s English music.

And there's a beautiful song called Friends.

It came out in 1970 by a band called Arrival.

I think they probably had one or two hits, if that,

and it just listened to it.

It's, I think it's about four of us actually.

It's a great song.

Friends.

I'll look at it a little later.

Neil Clifford.

I was smoking around in LA in my car.

And I only, I only play American music in America.

And I love Tom Petty.

He's really sad.

I mean, we're all going to die aren't we?

It's fucking annoying, isn't it?

Bless him.

We're all, it's so not free falling Tom Petty.

Yeah.

I've been up Ventura Boulevard at 6 a.m.

Life doesn't really get any better than that.

It's a winner.

So that's a great song.

So a couple of weeks ago, the man behind a lot of the quail,

Penetra, who's a friend of ours, lovely Philip,

who I call Uncle Philip because even though he's a bit younger

than me, he's quite a bit more capable

than me and tends to help me with stuff.

He, he collected me in another form of transport,

which is let's say has a gearbox, but goes up and down quite

and he's good at that.

And I'm very lucky.

I'm not very good at flying.

Anyhow, when we got into this thing,

he gave me a set of cans as he does.

There you go, cans.

And I'm sure he'd arrange this,

but he put on the most perfect tune.

And I've played it once a day since then

because the intro to it was so cool

and he's got, I reckon he got all the volume.

He knew he's got to play this tune.

He knew they're going to love this tune.

He doesn't do anything by accident.

And it was Daddy Cool by Boney M.

And I cannot stop playing it.

There's that d-d-d-d-d intro line.

It's such a, it's such a cool song.

He's crazy like any of you now,

not to go away on your streamer

and put on Daddy Cool by Boney M.

It's good.

It's sensational.

Thank you so much for joining us for episode 50.

I have to apologize on behalf of my learning colleagues

to Chris Cooper for not doing car or cheese.

I know he's put some legwork in this afternoon

and I'm really sorry about that.

I suspect Finley's been involved as well.

So Finley, if you've been involved,

I apologize to you as well,

but we're one hour and 28 minutes into this epic

and we've got to let Neil get some sleep

because he's got to go and revolutionize.

I've got to be normal tomorrow.

So thank you from me, Chris Harris,

Chris Cooper, Neil Clifford and Manish Pandey.

I will bore you again next week.

Bye-bye.

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About this episode

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