Joshy Robots / Honesty, Friction, and the Things We Make

I'm not afraid to chase a scary idea, and in fact, I get excited because the intimidating

part is the production.

The intimidating part is not just how do we manifest this thing in real life, but how do

we scale it so that it's not just, oh, proof of concept, it works in the real world,

but how do we make it so that I'm not the only one that gets to enjoy this, the only one that

are to put a smile on their face?

Mr. Joshy Robots, how's it going, man?

It's going great.

I'm enjoying California's Brutal Winner.

Yeah, geez, don't even.

It's funny, like when you first hop on here, this is the second time I've asked

how you do it, and when you came on, then there's this thing that you do every

time we get together and I ask you that, is you actually think about it.

Actually you take a moment to think about the question, and it's very interesting, and it's

like kind of like my first thing on my notes here is this, I'm always very, and I'm going

to be very candid with you.

I'm very intimidated by you as a person, and there's a reason for this, not because

like, not for any like, oh, I'm nervous, you know, Joshy Robots is so famous and

so handsome.

But I always get nervous to talk to you because I feel absolutely exposed every time I talk

to you because you're very insightful.

I feel like pleasantries and the veneer of the bullshit is never there with you.

Where did that come from with you?

Can I push you one further?

Yeah, please do.

Can I push you one further and say, I bet you part of what it is is kinship,

which is to say, there's a high level of trust, even if we don't have a sense of where the

other person is coming from, there is that like, I'm trying to present to you my full

honest self, I'm not trying to show you a veneer, and I think probably the same is

true on your end.

And because that's the starting point, that is itself intimidating, right, like a no

bullshit zone.

Yeah, that's unique.

That's not normal.

You know, I'm most people, I think, at least on initial interaction with other human

beings have their guard up.

They've got a guard.

They've got like the, you know, the ghosted translucent glass in front of who they really

are.

And I do that too.

I think the majority of people do that.

And maybe you do it differently.

Maybe there's this different way that you protect yourself.

And maybe your honesty is some sort of version of that.

I don't know.

But I just wanted to throw that out there.

I don't understand.

I don't feel like that with anybody else.

Most other people, I kind of just have, I think on first impressions, even if you

haven't seen someone for a while, there's always this progression of almost like poking

your finger into like a rubber wall farther and farther and farther until it stretches

and then you're finally through.

Oh, there we are.

Okay, here we are.

Okay.

Now we've come back to our friendship.

And the role we're back in the groove.

Yeah.

And there's just something about you that's very strange in that.

That doesn't exist.

I feel like I'm like, I invite a certain level of like straight up honesty.

Okay.

So here's, here's my two, two thoughts on that.

One is we do this thing, especially as grown-ass adults where we sort of like,

we have these survival instincts, most of which came from our formative years

and hopefully most of which are like relatively healthy behaviors.

Formative years.

Healthy behaviors.

Just sure.

I'm already there.

And we do what works for us, right?

We do what we found success with.

And so for me, a big part of that has, is just like a lot of my childhood was

steeped in all sorts of like dishonesty and deception and that just throws me.

So where I found success is just being super straight up with folks.

And then interestingly, this is sort of the second half of that.

My own observations is that it sort of manifests, dare I say, in an aesthetic

or a way to be or a value set, which is I find myself just in life.

Where I am, you know, middle-aged man, trans and fashion come and go sort of like

in rhythm around me.

Sometimes it moves toward me.

Sometimes it moves away from me.

But because I'm just so like, no, this is the shit I'm into.

That when it comes back, it's like, oh shit, I'm right with whatever

everybody's with.

And then when it goes away, it's like, you're weird, man.

You're what?

You?

You're stupid.

But I'm consistently expressing that thing that's just like, no, this is what,

this is as a heat mist.

This is what feels good to me.

Oh, the story of your car matters just as much as the machine itself.

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So is there like a point where it was negative for you?

Because I find it as a positive.

I like that about you.

But has it ever bit you in your professional or personal career?

Yes.

So as you well know, my business card says copywriter.

I come from the world of advertising, although I've been trying to escape since I got in.

And the weird thing about advertising, especially on the creative side, is the way they get

you to join the party is they say, hey, yo, there's folks out here with a big old

bag of cash and they have a business problem and they need you to solve it with creativity.

And that's advertising.

That's a lie.

They do have a big old bag of cash.

They do have business problems.

But the people with the bag of cash in their hand, they don't actually need you to solve

it with advertising or with creativity.

They need you to appear as though that's what you're doing.

That's all they need, right?

They need this.

There's gotta be a lot of dust up.

And so for a creative person who really cares about craft and art and communications and

just making rad stuff and putting it into the world, you get sucker punched by that, right?

Because you're going to put your heart into it.

And when it comes time to do the deal, like, okay, now let's make a thing.

Oh, you know, it either gets whittled down or watered or that's great.

What else you got?

And you know, you can go weeks or months like that.

But if you get wind, you start to smell around, oh, they don't actually want to make anything.

Or by the time they make something, it's just the same old noise.

And the majority of the stuff that we see in the world is that it's just noise.

That'll really wreck a person who's the whole time they've been playing like we're

all in the up and up with our putting our heart into it and being honest about it and

like actually trying to put beautiful things into the world.

Like the second that all comes crystal clear, like, no, no, no, this was all just, it was

just a game.

We're all just performing business over here.

That'll crush you.

And that's in large part when I stopped working in-house at agencies because I was so invested.

And then as a freelancer, I could just be like, okay, I'm on the project.

I'm going to give you my goods.

I'm going to give you my talent.

And then when the project's over, it's been cool.

I'm out.

There's sort of a reduced amount of personal investment.

And in fact, if anything, that's sort of when I started transitioning over to making

stuff for myself, not that it's any easier.

You don't have this big, huge production machine behind you so that you could just

focus on the part that delights us.

Would you say that advertising and the work you were doing before was lying?

Or was it just, because I always feel like when I see an ad campaign, the first thing

I do is what are they actually trying?

Because it usually comes from a point of, I feel like advertising and

copywriting in general is always coming from a point of weakness.

Like, what is our weakness and how do we say something positive about it?

What is our weakness and how do we spin it into a positive?

If you look at most of Porsche's advertising, for example, is our future is bleak.

So here's our heritage.

Yes.

So then they rewrite how amazing their heritage is, and then they kind of pull

what they actually are advertising into that and paint over it.

And I feel like that's what a lot of advertising is, is just kind of just lying.

Yes.

So here's what I'll say to that.

The best advertising comes from a period just before the business is about to go under.

Which is to say, they actually have a problem to solve and they need,

they really do need you to solve it.

And in fact, they're going to say yes to some good shit because they tried

everything they got in their bag of tricks and it hasn't worked.

So screw it.

Who knows?

And at that point in time, that's when the good creative comes along and they say yes to it.

The really honest stuff, the stuff that tickles and delights us, right?

The stuff that's beautiful.

And then, and this is the sort of the tragic part, it saves their ass.

And now they don't need good shit anymore.

Now they need, now they got to just status quo it.

And that's when the lies come out, right?

That's when the deception, that's when the milk toast, that's when the boring,

that's when the noise.

Because they no longer are actually invested in solving whatever the problem is.

If the problem was folks didn't really understand us,

folks didn't understand the benefit or, you know, there is no,

it's like, you know, classic Coke versus Pepsi, it's all parody product.

You know, it's just, we taught you to like this flavor over that flavor,

but there's no difference between them.

We're just going to maintain, and then we're going to tell you some bullshit

to attract your attention as opposed to like when we get right down to it.

And the sad part is, the vast majority of what's in our environments

is that noise, because as much as in agencies we like to flatter ourselves

that the, you know, the creative is, the reality is actually,

no, it's just presence, it's just, are you the brand that I see all the time?

I was just explaining to my kid, here we are coming into the holidays,

we're Jewish, but that gives me a really enjoyable sort of perch

to study Christmas from, explaining to her how her understanding of Santa

and what Santa wears actually has nothing to do with this character,

Noelle, or Christianity, or it's the Coca-Cola company's brand colors.

And how much advertising they did the turn of last century,

it just, they invented Santa Claus as we know it.

And then because, you know, America is, is, you know, big man on campus,

we then exported that around the world and now Coca-Cola's vision

and version of Santa is Christmas, right?

No, no birth of Jesus, no, no sort of like who is the guy on the sled

pushing through the forest to give people living in the cuts,

little delightful presence to warm their hearts and none of it.

It's consumerism in America.

Well, you talk about presence and you talk about advertising just being presence.

It's an interesting world we live in today where you can just pay for it,

whether it's good or not.

No, you can just pay for presence very, very easily.

I think it used to be a lot more difficult.

You had to choose like hope that if you put something out there,

people would see it.

Now you can physically give the money to force it in front of people's face.

It's very, very unique.

And it's never been like that in in human history

that you can pay for presence.

I disagree.

I'd say 98 percent of billboards I do my damnedest not to look at.

And then and then when a billboard is anything interesting whatsoever,

it's like it doubly attracts my attention because oh, they actually tried.

They didn't phone it in, but a billboard is public space.

Yeah, but it's also like you're you're you're advertising to like a general

population, right? You are paying for the present, sure.

But it's like, well, you're also getting you and me,

but you're also getting the 60 year old housewife that has nothing to do with us.

So it's kind of like this weird, weird market versus now the paying for

presence is you can just be like, you know, targeted, so targeted here, here, here.

Totally. That's fair.

Yeah, I think advertising is evil.

I think the thing that's so depressing to me about the whole thing

is this like on paper, it's actually

what would what would appear as like a really essential part of society, right?

As somebody with a good idea has something that's going to actually improve

your life and and here they are telling you about it.

Is it is it right? Oh, that thing's actually going to improve my life.

That's like it was like it was in the fifties.

Like if you look at car commercials back to me like four hundred

and cubic inches and a big seat and seat belts, you won't die in this thing.

And it's got air conditioning.

Yeah. Now it's everything's a cologne commercial.

You can't even understand what you're being marketed.

That the sort of the sort of the tell there that in fact, it wasn't actually.

Let me just present to you.

The good thing that we've developed is, you know, in cars, the fact that

they just put a new badge on the same vehicle and call it a different vehicle.

That's that's it. Right. That's they're giving it away.

Oh, this is this is for this type of person.

And this one is for this type of wait a second.

You didn't there's nothing new here.

On the other hand, I don't mind it, right?

Like Camaro versus Firebird.

Those are those are they live in the same universe.

But I kind of like a little variety.

Thank you for giving me a different color way in that body style, right?

Like, oh, wife theater or t-shirt, which is yes.

Yes. So, you know, again,

it's part of why since I got into advertising, I've been trying to get out

is because the reality is it is a pretty gross endeavor to try

and separate people from their money for mostly bullshit reasons

before somebody else can do the same. Right.

And that and that sucks.

And it's in frankly, it's not what I want to be doing with my days or my life.

I want to the promise was if you play the game,

you'll be able to put fun red stuff into the world.

And that's just so it's such a sliver of the game

that I've tried to do kind of this lateral move into.

I mean, I don't even know what it is that I do now how to describe it.

But just putting delightful things into the world

and thank you to the Internet, because you could just throw it out there.

And there's enough critical mass that it puts a smile on their face.

And it can help you pay the rent.

You're doing things like this. Yeah, right here.

This is a tell me about this a little bit.

What do I have in my hand right here for people that are listening and not watching?

I'm going to walk and talk. OK, let's do it.

So gosh, that's 10 years ago now.

Well, actually, no, maybe 12 or 13 years ago now, we bought a 9-11.

Won't labor you with the story.

But basically, we bought it because we kept running cars to go snowboarding.

And we needed a car to go snowboarding in.

But that ended up being the vehicle because in California,

they do a pretty good job of plowing roads.

So we didn't actually need four by four to go snowboarding.

And then we and then we started spending a lot of time in the car

doing more than just snowboarding.

Start going on adventures.

And there's this thing that happens where you just like

you kind of hang out in an environment

in what I, you know, and probably many people refer to as the office.

You hang out long enough and the dumb ideas start to come where you get steeped

in an idea, you know, you see it enough.

It becomes like these visual environmental memes.

So the one that tickled my brain was 917 knobs.

So they had the striations.

And because I come from a world of skateboarding,

every time I'd see this thing, I wouldn't see the heritage of the 917.

I'd see laminates of a deck and so probably.

Yeah, it'd be a decade ago now.

I had a kind of like a fuck it moment and I decided to make you held up yours.

This is the prototype.

It's big and goofy, I would say, oversized.

But this one, I glued it up and I brought it over to my buddy Paul's house

and he had his grandpa's lave from like the 1920s thing.

So like belts everywhere.

And just make it all up.

Oh, my God, it's like the sound of like,

yo, we should we should step back and put some safety goggles on

because this thing is going to explode.

But in fact, it did the trick and it took us.

I swear to God, it took us like five or six hours

to actually turn that knob because it was just like it was so laborious

and wasn't wasn't spinning on the RPMs and needed to.

But then it was a situation is like, oh, that's cool.

Like we did a thing and it went in the car and then as it were,

friends saw it. That's cool.

Can you make me one? Yeah. Oh.

But that, of course, that, you know, when you when you.

Synthesize worlds, right?

Like heritage of of Porsche racing and vintage car racing in general.

And skateboarding.

You're not alone, right?

There are other people who this is their van.

Vendaya McCrammett as well.

And it and it really.

It feels like personal to them, right?

It's these are not my ideas.

These are all ideas, right?

I live in the same soup that everybody else is living in.

And so you end up well, yeah, I'm the type of person who will actually.

Pull the trigger and bring the idea to life.

But then you can you could do the same thing for other people.

You differentiate between the prototype and then very different.

I think this is number 12.

This one, it ended up going in my car, living in my car for a long time.

And then before you know it, you're like, oh, shit, capitalism.

I better figure out how to make a brand.

So did you see this?

When did the light bulb go off for you that you're like, oh,

this is this doing stuff like this or creating things could be my exit

from this dishonest place that I'm quagmired in.

So I saw folks in advertising.

The if there is an exit strategy from that game,

the exit strategy was basically.

Cut your teeth in advertising, learn the game

and then go start yourself a donut shop

or go start yourself an art gallery or go go do something

that's closer to your heart.

And so it was always in the back of my mind of like, oh, here's the path.

Here's how this happens, right?

Like you learn the game in the agency walls and then you go

do something that's actually closer to your heart.

I think the difference in fact,

to reveal how much that was always the plan.

The last place I worked in-house was an agency in Montreal.

I was on the DG's original account and we moved from there back to San Francisco.

My first move once we got back to town was to create a business plan

for a treehouse building company.

That was my whole like, I'm going to figure out how in in San Francisco

get enough people with disposable wealth.

How can my life be building treehouses in the backyard of San Francisco?

And it actually, I got pretty far on it like to where I was doing.

I had I had a prototype and I had a bunch of

meetings with potential clients.

And then it was like, OK, but we still got to pay the rent.

So I had to start taking freelance gigs again.

And and then and then again, it's just sort of like

life feeds you opportunities, right?

We needed to go snowboarding. We bought the car.

I started making stuff and before you know it,

now this is the focus, this this this thing where

this is unreleased, but the magnet bowl for your tools

or for your for your free nuts is RIP these nuts on it, right?

And it's and it's like it's like a grave.

People throwing roses in there.

What what do I do? What the heck do I do?

And I and I love it, right?

Like, I get I get to put smiles on faces of people who

are are like minded and and and and I get to to, you know, dare I say,

I get to influence them a little bit.

I get to bring my values to our community.

I mean, we all love to evangelize.

Everybody does. They may say they don't, but they do.

Everybody loves to evangelize a little bit.

OK, I want to talk about this.

This is the I've got I've got one here.

I bought one and then Jeff also bought me one.

So I've got two.

So now that my wife can wear one

without making it smell like lady right here.

This is my three point pullover.

And I'm going to have Mrs.

Producer play a video that explains or shows what this is.

Go ahead, Mrs.

Mrs. Producer, whenever you are.

The three point pullover

by the robots to remove simply zipped from the wrist to the head.

Then pull over the head to reset.

Find the hem label and the zippered.

Let's see that again.

The three point pullover available now at earthrobots.com.

So.

I want to get into how this was conceived, of course,

and how it was built and the troubles and the trials and tribulations

and, you know, what it's done for you personally and emotionally, all these things.

But what was the inception for this?

Because there's always like this, you know, most things are either inspired

like the shift, I was like, oh, I love that beautiful thing.

How can I apply that beautiful thing?

And then there's this, which is was there a problem?

Like what what was the inception point for this?

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I have a terrible answer for you.

That's OK. There's no table. I don't I don't know.

I don't know what I do know is that

a lot of people have dumb ideas.

And I mean that in the most positive light, which is to say silly,

clever, whatever, I write them down and they fix it.

They don't go away, right?

So I think that the whole the question of like, where did that idea come from?

You could just as easily ask that question

about, you know, this little magnet bowl or.

I also got one right here for the the jerry can, right?

Like all of this stuff, where where did that idea come from?

I don't I can't tell you.

I can't tell you what I can tell you is that I say yes, right?

Like.

I'm not afraid to chase a scary idea.

And in fact, I get excited because

the intimidating part is the production, right?

The intimidating part is how do we not just?

How do we manifest this thing in real life?

But how do we scale it so that it's not just?

Oh, proof of concept, it works in the real world.

But how do we make it so that I'm not

the only one that gets to enjoy this?

The only one that are to put a smile on their face?

That's the scary part.

Less than that, it's just like, you know, you spend enough time in the cars.

You're going to run in here.

Yeah, like this sucks.

Wouldn't it be stupid if I'll give you a perfect example of that?

San Francisco City of bike messengers.

A lot of bike messengers, you know, you wear the messenger bag

and it's kind of like cross was like a seatbelt, right?

In fact, Chrome bags, they actually use the buckles of seat belts.

And as many folks may know, I like shooting

photos and video while driving.

Takes a little bit of juggling.

But for me, there's something the fact that you're doing it while driving

means that the camera is moving with the driver,

which helps the person watching that stuff later on feel really present in the car.

Like there's something way different between a shot that's locked down

on, you know, on some sort of a steadicam versus the one that's like

moving and being juggled with the person

trying to get down in those in those twisties at the same time.

So it occurred to me rather than having to dig in my pockets

while I'm driving, bike messengers already have across their

across their their buckle.

They have a little bit of like a little attachment pocket that they put right

there, stick their phone in, right?

Because while they're on the bike and they get like a, you know,

you got to go to this location, they don't need to be digging around

for their phone, pull it out right there.

Yeah, this is an idea I had five or six years ago.

So I bought one of these little these little attachments

where you can just slide your phone into it and I tried it on the car.

It's like, this is going to be rad while I'm driving.

As soon as I see something I want to film or we get into like

a really rad technical section right there. Boom.

Well, guess what?

It didn't work at all because the weight of the phone sitting on

the seatbelt pulled it down, right?

Versus when you're on a bike and a bike messenger bag, the thing pulls type.

It didn't work and it's fine.

I had to chase the idea.

I had to find out. I had to find it.

And in fact, in a lot of ways, I got the same

a dopamine in my brain by finding out it didn't work as finding out it did

because most of the the good time, most of the delight happened in the

wouldn't it be cool if the problem phase, the building phase, the

you know, creative design phase.

Yeah. So so in fact, I can give you, you know, as far as the pullover is concerned,

I can give you the run up and the story to how did I come up with that idea?

But it's almost the least interesting part, right?

Like the reality is everybody who loves driving and many people

who don't have had that occasion when it's just a little bit too hot

and they're trying to pull their they're like, oh, yeah, it's just I pull

my sweatshirt off all day long, not thinking about stuck and you're fucking

stuck in it and you're like, oh, my God, you're blind and you're probably

traveling, you know, like 60, 70 miles an hour and there may even be

passengers in the car that you're freaking the fuck out.

Right. Like there are so many levels to that.

Everybody's had this experience and and the only question is this is like

how do we get from doesn't that suck to wouldn't it be cool if and to be honest,

this is this is the most disappointing part to be honest.

It went as far as I want to say maybe seven years ago, eight years ago

when I first started making t-shirts, I have this sort of like monkey

on my back about legitimacy, right, because I'm just one person.

And at very least if I'm going to make something, if I want to put it

into the world, I need to be legit.

I need to feel like quality one of the things when you're making a t-shirt

that makes a t-shirt legit as opposed to just like, you know, just a one off

high quality woven label sewn into the the the neck tape, right.

That's like a mark of oh, it's for real.

It's a real thing. Yeah.

So I make these labels iron on.

Yeah, yeah, I make these woven labels and I'm super excited.

And I got a bunch of t designs sort of in the cooker and an old professor

of mine says those are dope.

I'd love to see them as a sweatshirt and it planted in my brain this idea of

like once I get this cut of this these these teas and these graphic

teas on lock, I'm going to I'm going to jump into cutting.

So and and and of course design, you know, decorating a t-shirt and cut

and so are two very different universes, but it still planted the idea in my head.

And so I sketched out what would it look like if the label was just

like this big all over print, right.

And as long as I'm doing it, let's do a quality.

It's not going to be screen printed.

Each of those, you know, stripes, those rainbow stripes from the label

is going to be a color block piece of fabric in the construction, right.

Because we're doing this. It's anything you're doing.

You want to be doing it as your as your your heart would hope it to be.

And and and then and then comes the million dollar question.

How did it end up with the zipper under the arm?

And gosh, I don't know.

It was just like all these other things where it's like, wouldn't it be funny if

and then it just sat there.

All it was was a little arrow on the illustration of that first pullover

that I made, a little arrow that just mentions,

oh, and there's a zipper under your arm so you can pull it off while you're driving.

I would like the mechanical process of this in my head a bunch of times.

Yes, I was like, I was like the other way would this be possible?

And the reason I did that is because Jesse goes, I don't want to mess up my hair.

I'm a girl. Yeah.

How would that work?

And I was like, oh, man, how would that work?

And so I was like doing mental mechanical gymnastics with zippers in my head

of how to make it work.

I couldn't think of anything.

I just couldn't. I couldn't figure it out.

The hilarious part of me being an accidental engineer.

I also couldn't figure it out.

I have no idea how you would how you would make that work.

Like what what you could do, the only reason it works

is because it's a quarter zip pullover, which means

you can make the head opening bigger.

It won't work with a hoodie, right?

It needs and the only reason it's a quarter zip pullover

is because on the weirdo who idolizes

like fashion from 1989 to 1992.

And when I'm sketching this thing up and I'm saying to myself,

oh, crap, I'm going to make some cut and so it's going to be

some cut and so that I'm into, like that I'm stoked on.

So I'm making a quarter zip pullover.

That's that it was never a oh, how am I going to pull this over my head?

It was a this is the fashion that I want to make.

And in fact, the prototype,

the proof of concept came from a pullover

that I found at the thrift store here in San Francisco.

It's San Francisco tourist wear.

Yeah. Right.

And I'm like, this is going to be the thing that I use.

Something I found on eBay, based off of another one

that I found in the thrift store here in town, so I didn't cut up my favorite.

This is going to be what I use as proof of concept.

And then a scary thing happened.

I sewed the zipper in and worked.

The thing worked and I was like, oh, no.

Now I'm going to do it works.

Yes. Yes.

Now I got to do it. Right.

I'm still thinking of this mechanical thing.

What if there was snaps like little snaps right here

so that a girl like right at this armpit section

where the thing comes up and there was like just like

and you could unsnap it for the women that didn't want to mess their hair up.

Don't answer. We don't want.

I don't want to start brainstorming.

That's that's a ridiculous thing to do on this podcast.

OK, so what was what was what did you discover that was hard

with this? Was there anything that was just like,

oh, man, that you just, you know, I love getting things wrapped up

before I go to bed or at least having a good stopping place

so you can like settle your mind, leave to tackle tomorrow.

Was there anything that just was just an open loop

that you couldn't solve?

So the funny thing and you know, unsurprising

the world of fashion is a lot like the world of advertising,

which is there are all these folks who work in various disciplines

along the way and they're all just trying to get through their day

and handle the thing that the person above them is expecting them to handle.

Um, there aren't so many folks who are like

in it because they have love for it and

just can't rest unless the thing is as good as possible.

And sadly, that's my approach, right?

Like, if I'm going to make this pullover, if I'm going to ask real green

money from people, this thing had better be not as good as I want it to be.

This thing had better be as good as it can be

because somebody's going to that's trust when you hand over that money.

They're going to hand over their trust to me and I'm going to mail them something

and I need that something on the receiving end, not just to meet their expectations,

but to like far exceed them because it it it's they've already gambled

on me by putting that money down, right?

So the the the industry of fashion, that's not what it's designed for.

So the thing, the struggle and the thing that I that I had the hardest time with

was, um, I'd work with a team through the development process, either on patterns

or on finding fabric and then some bigger fish would come along

and they would just be radio silence.

I wouldn't hear from them like what what happened?

Well, I had to learn at the hard part, hard way,

but come to find out in the world of fashion.

This is just normal.

This is this is how they get down, right?

When a bigger account or bigger project comes along,

the smaller one gets paused.

It's all good, nothing personal,

but this is how we're going to pay the rent because their margins are so thin

and then maybe in time it'll come back to you.

But if you have a project, you're like, oh, yeah,

we're going to be able to turn that around in say two months.

Um, or this part of the process will take the week and a half.

We'll get back to you, uh, uh, you know, in 14 days.

You don't hear from them.

What happened?

So, um,

realigning expectations was probably, um,

the the thing that I learned most in this whole process.

Taking a deep breath and recognizing in this whole game,

I'm the only one who cares.

I'm the only one who has a sense of like,

I need to see this thing over the finish line

because there's a whole community of people out there

who this is going to put a big old smile on their face

in a way that's put a smile on my face.

And if I don't keep pushing at this thing,

I can't, I, I literally was like,

from illustrating the idea initially seven years ago,

I worked with four separate teams.

The first three of whom, um,

ended for that exact reason

because the project is moving along

and that I just didn't matter to them.

And there I'm standing there like having invested

gang loads of cash in either development or materials.

And now I have to figure out like, A, are you all okay?

Why am I not hearing from you anymore?

And B, uh, can I come by and get my shit?

Um, I sent you guys a photograph

of a whole bunch of cotton in the back of U-Haul

with our mutual friend, Joe Hagel.

It was one of the occasions when I had to be like,

I'm sorry, I got to fire you guys

because I need to move this project forward.

And you're not giving me anything.

It's over. I got to, I don't know what's going to come next.

I got to find another team to work with.

But in the meantime, I got a whole bunch of cash invested

in cotton that I have to rescue

because I can't just, you know, take a dive on all that.

Do you think that, that kind of frustration

isn't, and that hardship is a necessary ingredient

and a good product in the end?

I don't know because what I can say

is the reason why you were able to order a couple pullovers

was not because of the struggle, though struggle was necessary.

The reason why you were able to order a couple pullovers

is because somebody in our community

saw me struggling and said,

hey, oh, you need to get with my friend, Allie,

who will take care of you.

Who will get stoked about what you're stoked about

and see you through to the finish line.

That's it. It's like with everything else.

It's just finally working with folks who can be invested

and care, and that's the difference.

And so the question is, what if I had found this team right at the gate?

Well, for starters, we would have had pullovers four years ago, right?

But at the same time, the good news is, I'm not a capitalist.

I'm not in it to sit on an empire of pullovers.

If the idea takes time and patience and dedication, so it goes.

Because at the end of the day, what really matters is, again,

making sure that when they actually hit the street,

that they are as delightful and high quality

as I think people in our community deserve,

and that they stand on their own, independent of me and my ego,

and trying to force it through to the finish line,

that just as a thing on their own, they're adding good.

So when you held that first run in your hands,

and it showed up and you open up the box or whatever it was,

what did that feel like when having the completed thing

that you knew that you could send out into the world?

You finally had that thing to set sail.

I first visited those babies down at the factory in Los Angeles

to do quality control, because, again, every single one of those

that goes out into the world has to be top shelf.

Nobody be disappointed by what they receive

when they hand over their faith.

This is in between being in North Carolina with you for Lyft,

flying back to California to do Robin's Rally.

That's the quick visitation at the factory of all the units

we produced for the first drop,

and then doing Robin's Rally and then hopping on a plane

to go do Overcrest out in Appalachia.

So I didn't get to stay with them.

They were there.

There was a couple of little tweaks on some of them

that I need doing,

but I had kind of a whirlwind of a month

where it was a lot of driving and a little bit of business.

And then I got back to California

and they were waiting for me in my living room.

And it was such a bonkers month

that I kind of just, I took a deep breath and said,

okay, they're here.

They're safe.

What do I have to do to actually release them into the wild?

Normally, being somebody from advertising,

it's communications game.

Normally my strength is making those little bits of communication.

How do I tell people the news?

How do I get the word out?

But this particular creative endeavor

has been such a crazy,

hey, it's a whole new world,

a whole new learning curve,

that by the time they actually are there

hanging out in the living room,

I just don't have the juice anymore

to release them into the world.

It's just like, oh my God, can I go take a nap now?

Yeah.

So I gave myself a little bit of a breather about a week.

Then I said, okay, baby steps.

Let's take this thing real slow.

Start with product photography.

Make them look pretty.

Present them in a way that is honest to what they actually are.

So at least folks who are in the know can say yes, right?

Folks who have tried out the prototypes,

folks who have been riding along this whole time can actually,

we can actually do the transaction and I can get them out to them.

And then we got to cast that net a little wider.

What does that look like?

Well, it's kind of a demo, right?

Because part of the design aesthetic of them,

the whole idea behind them is that this is like,

it's a little more than a sweatshirt,

it's a little less than a jacket,

which is to say it's not weird that you're kind of wearing it.

A little often, right?

This is this is part of my like, my when I go driving kit.

But if that's the case, aesthetically,

we kind of wanted to be a little simple.

This is our driver's pullover.

We allows you to take the sweatshirt off

while still being buckled into a 3.0 seat belt.

This is the proof of concept video of this graph.

Oh man, from years ago.

I'm going to pull it right off.

Look, it's like baby Joshie.

Yeah, years ago.

In the pull of the wrist,

you can pinch the sleeve under your hand

by keeping your hand on the wheel

and pull against that pinch under the zip,

creating an opening with the zipper under the arm.

Oh, that's a great question.

Hey man, I don't like...

Um, had I known it would take seven years

would I continue?

Absolutely.

Because again, I'm not I'm not here

to be sitting on a mountain of pullovers, right?

I'm here for the ride.

I'm here for the process.

There is something really difficult about

you thinking to think should be so simple, right?

Can't we just get this right?

And in fact, that you know,

that the things that I'm talking about are

does the zipper get stitched into the seam with a little fold

or does it sit on top of the seam?

No, because it gets zipped right into the fold.

Okay, cool.

Wait a second.

Why did that sample come back like that?

Okay, no sweat.

I'll put a little note on there

and we'll zip it into the fold.

Well, then the next sample comes back

and we're in the same place.

Wait a second, right?

So the development process itself is such a

its own education

that that became its own reward, right?

Learning how to push that boulder up the hill

with style and grace.

Well, I think that that belies the question then of,

okay, so it was worth it.

It's good that you did it.

Is there another like functional apparel

or would you do something different?

Not would you do it again?

Because obviously you've already done it.

It's very difficult to speak to that.

Do you want to do another project like this?

Would you?

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I would say this is all I've ever done, right?

Like, not to say that this wasn't the most

Herculean thing that I've developed so far,

and in a lot of ways it is.

But in fairness,

when I first started making graphic tees,

it was a struggle finding illustrators

to execute the stories I wanted to tell

with the flavor I wanted to tell it.

That is its own, like, learning how to do it.

And frankly, I got a roster of illustrators now

that I can go ring up when I got an idea

that needs coming into fruition.

That's no longer a challenge.

But at every stage, every aha,

you're like, well, how the heck do I figure this one out?

Right? If anything, that's part of the reward.

The reward is taking on those big challenges.

If the idea is strong, you're fed, right?

Like, keep chipping, keep pushing at it, keep pushing at it.

And as I say, if anything, there was a bit of a like,

oh, no, when the pullover, when that first prototype worked.

Oh, no.

It's inevitable.

It goes from an idea to an inevitability.

Yes, because before I tried it out,

yeah, before I tried it out,

it was just something tickling my brain.

And then once it once it worked, it's like,

oh, no, okay, here we go.

Now we got to develop it

because now it needs to needs to be in the world, right?

Like, I need to gift this to everybody else in our community.

Well, I've got another topic I want to talk about here after this,

but where can people, and I'll put the show notes,

a link in the show notes,

if someone wants to grab something from your store,

but where can they find it?

On the internet, earthtorobots.com.

There you go. Easy, easy.

In the show notes too, if you're too lazy to type,

you can just touch it with your finger.

And it'll teleport you in time and space.

Pick one of these up.

Okay, so, pardon me.

I think it's clear that we have very different world views.

Which is okay.

At least interesting discussion.

I think it's essential.

It is essential, it's true.

So I wanted to pose this question from that foundation.

From an egalitarian perspective,

and egalitarian means fairly equal,

like aiming towards equality.

Yes.

Autonomous cars seems like something that you would love.

Because it makes travel and movement

more egalitarian and accessible.

But at the same time,

I know that you are someone who loves to drive

and loves the freedom to travel and explore at will.

And these two concepts seem at odds.

And I'm just wondering how you,

because I actually,

I don't know what your opinion is on a robot car,

so maybe I shouldn't assume.

But how would you reconcile that?

How do you square that circle

being someone who,

one, accessibility for all,

but also is a bit of an individual?

Sure.

So I live in a terrible shit hole called San Francisco.

I think it's probably in competition

with Paris, France

as being one of the most disgusting places on planet Earth.

Being facetious, of course.

It is strangely gorgeous, naturally gorgeous.

And I think the folks who lived here

and have lived here for generations

have done pretty well,

making it even more beautiful.

It's an urban environment.

There's no fun to be had

driving in an urban environment.

I once had fun driving on the island of Manhattan

in a track car.

The part that was fun about it

was actually just going toe to toe

with all the cabbies.

And I think the reason why that was fun

was mostly because cabbies,

like they have a rhythm with each other

that does not involve civilians.

Or a race car.

And the fact that my car was not painted yellow,

and so they did not recognize me as one of them,

but I was getting in there with them,

getting in their rhythm,

and boy, was that a lot of fun.

So urban environments, for the most part,

if you're not part of that network,

it doesn't work.

If anything, it's a pain in the ass.

People don't understand.

There's a lot of people that will harp on about,

public transportation is bullshit, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And normally, I would tend to agree,

depending on the size of the urban scale.

I was just in New York City for a matter of days.

And I could go anywhere in the city

at any time that I wanted to go

and be almost anywhere within like 20, 30 minutes.

It's fantastic.

When I lived in San Francisco,

I lived in Daly City,

per part of the time that I was there,

right next to the Cow Palace, actually.

I was like two blocks away from the Cow Palace.

I could take the BART system pretty much straight to

wherever I needed to go.

I went to the Art Institute downtown San Francisco

and I could travel around.

I needed my bicycle and I needed the BART system.

And I didn't really ride the Meany.

I don't like the bus.

The bus is just, I don't like the bus.

Not for you.

It's too slow.

Like if you want to go a couple stops,

that's fine.

But if you need to travel it,

if you're going from Daly City

to downtown San Francisco on a bus, that sucks.

It surely sucks.

But I think there's like this argument

that just goes to the edges on this,

like transportation should be always

and public transportation should be never.

But I think it's far more nuanced than that.

I don't, I think a lot of America

is not built for public transportation.

I think a lot of it is very sprawling

and it's very large and it doesn't work.

I just wanted to add that note to you.

Continue.

I'm still listening.

Yeah.

I think, no, but I think you're on to something

which is to say it's not a,

transportation is not one size fits all.

It morphs depending on the needs of the environment.

I think in fact, one of the things

that you'll see in both urban and rural environments

when you roll up to a stop sign

and look over at the person next to you

is that they're on their phone,

which is to say they aren't really there as a driver.

And I think that kind of signals

is this person given their preference,

would they like to be driving right now

or would they like to be in their phone, right?

So just as a like, just laying the groundwork,

transportation is about getting from here to there.

It's about doing that with a certain level of autonomy and efficiency.

And it's about doing it in a way that you're comfortable, right?

It's while we all bemoan traffic.

So as far as systems and where they fit,

I live in a city that's now getting pretty saturated

with self-driving cars.

I go out on the block to go get a sandwich

and like no joke within a minute and a half,

I know the robot will drive by, right?

It's like that.

And now-

What do you think when you see that?

When you see that drive-by,

does it still strike you as different

or is it so normal that you don't even think about it anymore?

So I actually, not at this house,

but at our old house,

we lived on one of the blocks that they were testing.

And so I've been in an environment

looking at robots for about three years now.

At first, I just love fucking with them, right?

Like I'd throw shit into the street to see them go,

it's scary, right?

Like it just gave me so much happiness,

which is sort of a weird thing, right?

Like what is it about us as humans

that just sort of disrupting a robot?

The robot, there's no ego to the robot, right?

It doesn't care that I just interrupted its line, right?

Like it's the whole thing.

But I think there was a level of,

and it goes to your question,

there's a level of novelty

that I was responding to.

But now it's the same as a bus going by,

which is to say I have a huge fondness for the,

the, oh, called operators

who drive the buses in San Francisco.

They're like such rad stand-up people

and they're pretty hardcore

because as a bus driver,

you got to deal with a lot of shit in the city, right?

So the amount of respect I have

for those bus drivers,

I now have it for the robots

because the reality is those robots

are pretty damn predictable

and is a very aggressive driver.

That's kind of one of the things

I need out of my environment.

I need to know, like with relative certainty,

how that vehicle is going to behave.

I know how the muti buses are going to behave.

I know how the robots are going to behave.

You know who I don't know how it's going to behave?

Is the person who just recently decided

to tint all their windows all the way around?

Yeah.

Like, yo, I don't know anything about you.

I don't know what you're going to do.

And that just like,

that just gave me the jitters.

Now it sucks.

It sucks to drive

because I can't,

I can't work in rhythm with you in this environment.

I will say though.

Yeah.

I don't know, man.

I mean, I agree.

Driving with conviction is important

and no one's going to drive

with more conviction

than a freaking robot.

That is the ultimate conviction.

They're, you know,

it's yes or no all the time.

Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.

That's what they do.

There's probably a some amount of reason

that will have to be plugged in at some point

because, you know,

you always think of the drawing

where it's like you've got the child on one rail

and then you've got 10 adults on the other.

Which level are you pulling?

Yes.

You know, eventually it's going to have to make that decision

and that will have to be programmed in.

The value of life will have to be poured.

It probably already is.

We just don't know it.

Who knows?

But I feel like in a system where

that is where we're going,

the room for Josh to drive around is 9-11

amongst that doesn't exist.

Okay, so let me push back on that idea.

There's no way regulators

are letting those two things exist

at the same time.

There's no world.

So, like in Europe,

that's already out the window.

Yeah.

But, wow, we're Cowboys though.

It's true.

And here, I will reveal to you

why I think it's going to work

and I also will reveal

what makes me most uncomfortable about it.

So, again, with the starting point

of regardless, urban or rural,

when you roll up that stoplight,

you look over and you see somebody on their phone

or even more fun,

you see them on the freeway or whatever.

I read from that this person

is not stoked to be driving right now.

They are not present in that role.

Okay, so let me assume from that then

that the majority of people

actually don't like hanging onto that wheel.

They don't like that role being the driver.

What are they getting out of

owning their own car?

It is autonomy, right?

It is efficiency.

So, it's going where you want,

when you want, how you want.

Exactly.

And here's another tell.

You roll up to the Walmart parking lot,

black, silver, gray, maroon,

black, silver, silver, black,

maroon, gray, jellybean, jellybean, jellybean, jellybean.

These aren't even people who like love their cars, right?

It's a utility object,

which is to say, right now,

we've got an idea in our head,

that's my car.

And it says something about me,

but not really.

That's how it's marketed still though.

Like when you watch cars,

it's still marketed as a

you can define yourself with this car.

This every segment car segment

is for a particular person.

And a for a particular role or whatever.

So, it's still marketed and advertises

a personality choice.

Listen, Chris, I made

what I call rocket pop,

blue, white and red pullovers.

And I made black pullovers.

I'm going to pimp the shit out

of those rocket pop pullovers, right?

Like that's the bright fly eye catching

version of the pullover,

but I'm going to move the black ones.

That's what people will say, yes.

So, I think what you're sensing there

is the thing that attracts our attention

is not actually the thing

we end up saying yes to,

the thing that actually is in our hearts.

As a society, as a society.

Collectively, what are the decisions we make?

They're buying Nissan Maximas

and Nissan is just charging them 20% interest

and that's actually the product,

not the car.

Got it.

Oh, here's another world.

Another world is where we have

all of these Robo cars,

hive mind,

they're all connected to each other.

The way they already work is by,

you know, with their LiDARs,

scanning the environment

to tell exactly what's happening,

not just in their line of sight,

but around the corner.

So they've got this

real-time map of the environment,

which is to say,

you know, we're still early days,

but the thing is developing super fast.

They will know everything

that's going on the road

at any given time,

anywhere, all the time.

Yes.

100%.

That's going to happen.

Yes.

In what world are they letting you

drive in that landscape?

Why is that allowed?

So the question is as much

why will Josh driving like an ass hat

in downtown San Francisco

not mess up the rhythm

of all the robots talking to each other?

As the question is,

in what version of Cowboy Country,

America,

do enough people look at that

and say,

no, we should definitely not let

Josh drive with the robots.

Because the reality is,

what the robots are programmed for

is to assess the real world risks

and to adjust, right?

The kicks I would get

by chucking my sweatshirt

into the street

when they would come down the way,

that's what they're programmed for,

which is to say,

they're programmed to deal with me.

And here's the part that makes me uncomfortable.

Yeah, but you're saying that

like the robots have the choice

of whether you're going to be the one

that's allowed to drive or not.

No, I'm saying the transition

isn't us collectively saying,

no more humans, only robots.

It may be that.

But I think what it's going to be is

more and more people,

it's the same like with electric cars.

We miss the sound of them.

We missed the ritual of going to the gate.

I don't know what people's excuse is.

Whatever it be at the end of the day.

Listen, we got three or four vehicles.

One of them is electric.

It is by far the lowest maintenance,

easiest to drive,

easiest to park,

easiest everything, cheapest.

I don't even see it as a car anymore.

It's so easy to take care.

Are you kidding me?

So when people start making

their purchase decisions,

this same group of people who,

yeah, they've grown up on the romance of the car,

but at the end of the day,

when they make the choice,

they choose the gray maxima, right?

Those same folks,

they're going to start making

the less expensive, easier to maintain

more reliable choice, right?

And you and I and all the rest of us,

Romantics, are going to be out there saying,

are you going to let us

be on these streets any longer?

Yeah.

They won't care.

They're going to be in their Game Boy,

sitting in the back of the robot car.

They won't care.

Totally cool.

I think most people don't care,

but I think there's this certain level of control

that regulators would just go,

dude, you unsafe.

You know, we remember the time

when everybody was dying.

This is what freaks me out.

You can't interrupt this.

Yes.

Utopia, it's literally a driving Utopia,

is what it is.

I think it's going to be realistically,

in our lifetime, we're fine.

I think we're fine.

Here's what I think is going to save us.

That urban world divide,

I already can't get my rocks off

driving in San Francisco.

I have to lead the city

to go out to the twisties, right?

So already the question is not,

am I going to drive like an asshole

in San Francisco?

I already don't, right?

I'm super, super chill within city limits.

Until we get out,

it's when the fun happens, right?

So that's not a question.

But the thing that,

and this you may be able to relate to,

the thing that does make me uncomfortable

is all these hive mind robots

that are all over town

that got their eye on me as a threat, right?

Like they just do a threat assessment

of this 9-11 shaped object

moving through San Francisco, right?

They're going to scan the car

and they're going to go

and they're going to immediately listen

to the other podcast we have

where it says Josh is ready to die.

They got me.

And then that said, it's over.

They're going to drive you off the road,

off the bridge into the San Francisco bay.

From the surveillance perspective, right?

I don't have,

one would think,

we live in this society where it's like,

I'm not guilty because I committed the act.

I'm guilty because you caught me and proved it.

We're going to live in an environment,

a transportation environment

where you got all these little eyeballs

moving about the city,

always watching you.

You ain't going to get away with shit, right?

That's what makes me nervous.

How do you feel about that?

I hope, collectively as Americans,

I hope that we step up

and we create some firewalls.

Because on the one hand,

already statistically speaking,

the robots are way better

and way safer at driving than we are.

I mean, that's cool.

And I like that people

who don't want to be holding the wheel

don't have to be holding the wheel

without giving up their autonomy

or their sense of individuality.

I like that a lot.

But at the same time,

if we're not soft-soul

about how we legislate

and create the environments

that these hive minds exist in,

culturally, we will create a monster.

We were never going to be down with, right?

Maybe we shouldn't matter, though, dude.

Maybe you and I shouldn't matter.

Why do we matter, is it?

That's fair.

You know what I'm saying?

I do.

Maybe we're just idiots.

I do.

We love cars and we're just this fringe.

Like, who gives a shit about us?

Society can move on.

I think the answer to that question

has way less to do with us

and people who own cars

and way more to do in general

with American culture.

The question is...

Like rebel culture?

Like break the rules, punk rock.

Fuck you.

I don't give a shit.

I'm not going to tell me.

Perhaps.

Or, for that matter,

any type of individuality

that...

I think culture has to come from

the freedom to stretch out ideas.

And if we create a society

that just as a default is constrictive,

we won't make room.

There won't be fertile ground for free ideas.

Now, that said,

there's got to be some, like,

ground rules

in order to create an environment

where people are able to flourish, right?

Are able to feel safe, be safe,

and work in community,

and work to our higher goals.

I tickled something.

I'm just thinking of, like,

I go...

My brain just goes,

why does society need any new ideas?

Haven't we come up with...

Other...

I'm not talking about engineering.

Ideas and tech ideas.

I understand.

I'm talking about, like,

cultural, social, religious.

Why do we need any more...

We don't need any more ideas.

Do we?

Do we really?

So...

I'm not saying that people

shouldn't believe in what they want to believe.

I'm saying, do we need to...

Do we need to constantly try

and make progress all the time?

Can't we just go,

this is pretty good.

Can we just do this?

Realizing humans are these imperfect beings,

and we're just...

Can we just be like this?

Yes.

So says the caveman.

You were standing...

But we're, like, thousands of years

of new ideas away from caveman.

Okay.

Okay, and just consider,

you know, 100 years into the future.

Chris, 100 years into the future says,

okay, okay, now's the point

at which we press pause.

No new ideas.

We're good.

You could say that at any,

at any point in human civilization.

And I think it, you know,

becomes a self-defeating argument

because really it's a subjective question

about when...

Yeah, you would think that eventually

society would either A, become enlightened.

Yes.

Or B, crash and burn.

There's like this tipping point of...

Yes.

We're either gonna become

the enlightened species that

is almost similar to Pluribus,

the new show that's out where it's this

hive mind of people and blah, blah, blah.

Everybody's no war piece.

Everything, everything's fine.

Yada, yada, yada.

Or there's just a complete collapse

of civilization when we start over.

And we come up with all these new ideas

all over again.

I like it and I have a third possible

path forward.

Okay.

And I'm gonna change venues

because the cat is enjoying her toy.

The third possible path forward

is that there's always work to be done.

And this, I think, directly

addresses your question of

why do we always have to be trying

to make things better?

Well, because there's always work to be done.

So for example, in the 19...

I think you started in the 50s,

but it didn't actually get any traction

until the 60s.

Ralph Nader started pushing for seat belts.

Ralph, leave us alone.

Why you always gotta be pushing things

forward, right?

And as a result, we got seat belts

in every car.

And, you know, there's a lot of people

who get to live their healthy lives

because Ralph kept pushing things forward, right?

Every corner of society, we have

progress that wouldn't be there.

Women being able to own property,

let alone vote, right?

Women being whole members of our society.

In the last 100 years, though,

we've seen massive change that's been good.

I agree.

I'm not saying that change is not good.

There's been many times in human civilization

where we were horrible, toxic, just the worst.

Yes. Yes.

But is there a point where...

And I'm just talking...

I'm thinking of like this

high-flying autonomous car civilization.

And I'm thinking in my brain,

what else is like this in this civilization?

There's so many things that are going to be automated

and we're a universal basic...

Income because nobody's going to be doing tricks or whatever.

We're literally going to have robots

that'll be able to complete all the tasks that humans can do.

Yes.

It's inevitable.

Yes.

That doesn't seem great.

And maybe we should just chill.

And work on those social issues.

Maybe we can work on being better people

rather than continuing to advance.

And I sound like God.

I sound like the worst leadite in the world right now.

I know it.

I know I do.

I disagree.

I think you perhaps are the classic fish swimming in the bowl

not realizing it's water that they're swimming in.

Because it's so close and it's ever been thus

that you think this is as it should be.

But let me just suggest not to pick on any concerns.

But if these robots, if we do do a good job on them

and they do as promised, which is to say,

pick up the slack, right?

Do a lot of the work that otherwise

would be needed to be done by humans.

And then your nightmare comes true,

which is people now have to work as much or at all.

There's no frustration and struggle

for which to overcome and succeed.

Nothing's hard.

I will kick that back to you.

I think,

challenge me on this, but I think

being a race car driver is a valid profession.

I think it's admirable.

I think it's I think it's downright sexy.

And I think we should have race car drivers.

But I think you could also make a pretty good case

for why it's not a profession.

It's bullshit and we don't need them.

What if we could make a world where there were

more race car drivers?

There were more gardeners.

There were more people who made pullovers

you could take off without taking your seatbelt off.

There's an alternate timeline where we're not

It sounds like a world where everything's great

and nothing is special.

I don't want everybody.

I don't want everybody to be a race car driver.

More gardens isn't special?

I'm well, I'm sorry, race.

I don't want more pullovers like this.

I want one.

I want you to make it.

I want it to be special.

I don't want race car drivers.

I want a few that I can that are

a spectacle and it's marvelous.

And there's this breadth of difference

between that guy and me.

I want that contrast and that value of this

versus the I suck at race car driving.

I want to suck.

I want to not know how to make a three-point pullover.

I want someone else to do it so that I can marvel

at the time, effort, frustration, and success

and the result of that whole work.

I want that.

I don't want more people to be able to do that.

I want it to be hard.

And I will tell you,

you get a hard scrabble race car driver.

You get a gardener who's in touch

with the worms and the earth.

You get an ass hat who came up with some goofy idea

because we have the room in our lives

to spend our energy on that.

We have surplus in society

that the race car driver doesn't actually

have to go work in the iron mill

and instead can pursue race car driving.

I'm not telling you you have to be a race car driver too.

I'm telling you, as society creates these surpluses

in work effort, we can start developing

all of these other endeavors

that we wouldn't have the resources to chase.

Right?

I think without Roblox,

I think if it's if it doesn't demand sacrifice,

I think it becomes less valuable.

Are you telling me developing a three-point pullover

doesn't demand sacrifice?

I think it does.

But if you don't,

a lot of that sacrifice is financial

because you have to be able to provide for your family.

Totally.

Yes, I'm in some heavy debt right now.

I'm with it.

So if that sacrifice doesn't exist

and the reward,

it's almost like human beings need

the reward of what they're doing.

And I can see where this conversation is going.

You're about to make my point for me?

Yeah, I can see it.

Like I can see on the horizon that we live in a political system.

But I think human beings need to be rewarded for hardship.

I think scars are important.

I think imperfection is very important.

And I don't think giving people more time

is the answer.

This goes off the rails very, very quickly.

I have a case in point.

Me being able to step away from advertising,

even as I've had to go into debt to do it,

has created the opportunity for me to be able to come up

with absurd ideas.

It doesn't happen if I can't afford to step away

from the advertising agency, right?

So I understand what you're saying.

Humans need to struggle.

I agree.

Humans need to struggle to struggle.

We would not be satisfied

if we didn't have that in our lives, right?

We would not.

That's like a nature, man.

That's like intrigue and grass and everything.

It's that hardship makes everything stronger and better.

If it's not there, we're just going to have this milk, toast,

wet, paper towel society that crumbles and fails at any hardship.

My point being that we all feel that.

We all feel the craving to struggle and to strive.

We all feel it within ourselves.

And then we look across the way at the person who lives

in that community way over there and say,

yeah, but if you cut them a check,

they're going to be a bum and sit on the couch all day.

Wait a sec.

You're not a bum, but they are.

How does that work?

Wait a sec.

Your family is in a...

No.

If we create a community in a society that values

making big, beautiful things with your energy

as opposed to clocking in at the factory, right?

Why don't we have the robots clocking in the factory

and you can make, dare I say, the podcast.

Do you think that human beings, that everybody pines or would do that?

Do you think people, if they had the time

and they had the space in their lives,

would like...

I don't think everybody's built that way, man.

I think there's different human beings that are raised

different ways and some get the genetic lottery and some don't.

Some of the creative people are the way they are

because of the hardships they had and the way they were raised.

Yeah.

If we wipe the slate clean for everyone,

I just, I fear that the ingredients will not be there

to create beautiful things.

I just...

I hear you.

Here's the thing that gives me hope.

This is like this.

It's that line where it's like, yeah, well, we need more of this,

but like, oh, no, it can't be too easy,

but we should try to make it as easy as possible for everyone

so that we can have more of the beautiful things in life,

but oh, we can't...

What we already do with our spare resources is excellent.

We join our church and create celebration.

We join a quilting circle and create community.

We say yes to a rally and drive across the country

to go drive in circles so we can drive home.

We're already doing it with the resources we got,

and the assumption that if I don't have this nine to five

with an ass whole corporation or middle management boss

putting their thumb on me, I won't also participate

in all these other parts of my life

that are sort of closer to my heart.

The assumption that once the toil goes away,

I won't pursue my humanity.

How does that track, right?

I think we're talking about scale, right?

So you're talking about scale.

Like it doesn't have to be race car driver.

It can be guy who likes to just drive with his bros.

It's a nice little picture.

Yeah, I mean, I think that whether I like it or not,

and generally I do not,

I believe we are heading towards a society

that is very, very autonomy based.

I think we are going to need a UBI as much as I may hate that.

There needs to be some sort of universal basic income.

This is a car podcast, right?

Where we need a universal basic income

where people, because obviously it's like,

hey, I've seen the ads where when electricity came out,

everybody's like, everybody's going to die, right?

We don't know what the economy will do.

It's a very complex and verbose structure

of human beings that can often be very unpredictable.

We may, this is uncharted territory for civilization.

We maybe don't know how people will react

in this Petri dish of autonomy and AI.

We don't know.

Maybe, I don't know what jobs will be created.

I don't know what economy is going to, who knows?

I have no...

We don't know the specifics,

but we do know the behavior.

Here's a screwdriver, literal screwdriver, right?

What's it do?

It drives a screw.

It's a hammer.

Over there in a box is a drill driver.

No, that's a hammer, Joshy.

That screwdriver can be a hammer.

I'm just saying.

That's not a noise.

That's a noise.

You can even pry to it.

Anyway, continue, sorry.

What do we do?

What do we do with not this one,

but the one I plug into the wall, right?

Will we get that screw driven in?

Look at the split.

Well, what am I going to do with that extra time?

I'm going to drive a second one in.

At some point in time,

all of this mechanical efficiency

has to do something for me, right?

I built the shelf in half the time.

Can I please have that half the time back

to go write my wife some poetry, please?

I can guarantee you that is not how...

Not that doesn't work in the economy we've got,

because I can guarantee you,

if you become more efficient or I become more efficient,

I'm not working less.

I'm just going to have more of my labor extracted from me.

Oh, sounding like a peer socialist.

I like it.

I just know that's how it works.

As we've gotten more efficient over time,

that's how it's always been.

And so as it is with the robot cars,

where as we feel this change coming,

we have to legislate to create guardrails

to protect, for example, against the surveillance state,

so too as we feel these mechanical efficiencies

entering into our life,

we got to legislate so that we don't get exploited,

right?

So that we do have that time back to go...

Bless our own communities, right?

Like to actually do stuff for the neighbor

and not be like, I ain't got time.

I ain't got time.

Right?

No, you get your time back and the mechanical efficiency,

i.e. the robots, fill in the gap.

Or another way we could go is that all of that efficiency

gets translated economically into the pockets

of the folks who own the robots initially,

and we don't get our time back.

And in fact, we get ever invested

into being consumers in their endless...

Oh, here we go.

You're right, it is a car pocket.

I'm pro-robot cars.

I'm stoked.

I'm excited to toss it up with them

and then get out into the cars.

I have a dream of being 96 years old.

I've got this 911 over there and it's banned.

And all of the autonomous cars are driving around

in Minneapolis and I've got cancer.

I'm going to die.

Mad Max.

Let's go.

I'm taking that car out.

I'm going to just rip down like Hennepin Avenue

or Main Street.

We're up Main Street, any town.

And I'm going to tear it off.

See how many of those robots you can pit.

Yeah, right?

Just get out of the way.

Binky Bunky.

Imagine the guy that has a dump truck

sitting in the back of his field

that's just like, fuck this,

that he puts a snow pile on his dump truck

and just plows all those autonomous cars off the road.

Yeah.

Interesting times ahead.

Brave new world.

Interesting time.

Thank you for coming on and talking to me, man.

Everybody go to earththorrobots.com.

Check out this guy's cool merch.

I have great respect for you, Joshy.

I'm really impressed by what you accomplished.

I sense how difficult this was.

It's a labor of love.

Yeah.

It is.

And good on you, man.

We'll see you around.

We'll see you next time.

See you, guys.

All right.

Take care.

Joshy Robots / Honesty, Friction, and the Things We Make

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