Kids Social Media ban a month away, plus our relationship with work and technology

The EFTM podcast, Talkback Technology.

Got a question about tech?

Trev's here to help.

Not sure what to buy.

Ask Trev.

Australia's number one Talkback Technology podcast.

I was gobsmacked.

I spoke to you on the Tuesday.

Thursday afternoon, there's this lovely courier man of me back door with a parcel for

me.

Just to thank you so much, because whatever your involvement, you truly got some magical

powers and don't ever let it down.

Great to have you company on the EFTM podcast, cracking big show today, and I'd love your

feedback.

Always.

Thank you so much for being here today, and I'll see you guys in the next one.

Bye.

We're going to chat today.

We're going to chat HP computers, and they've got a new work relationship index out.

And it's fascinating because what is your relationship with work?

How has that changed over the years?

Is it something that has been molded by technology?

Neil Westoff from HP will talk to me about just, I want to talk about computers generally

and how they've changed over the kind of last five years with the kind of agile

computing space and all those kind of things.

So we'll talk about that and their new work relationship index shortly.

I've got a couple of people on the line who have been on the show.

We want to get feedback from them.

You might remember David was going to talk about buying a microphone to have some

detail and in-depth conversations with his dad and Greg from the Central Coast looking

at upgrading.

Did he get the two gigabit internet?

Did he get it?

I'm curious to know.

We also want to spend some time today talking about the kids social media ban.

The social media minimum age legislation, SMA legislation.

And we'll do that today with someone with a equally loud voice on this topic.

And that's Cam Wilson from crikey.com.au and the sizzle.

And hopefully we'll have a good chat about the social media ban and what it all means.

We've got a few more weeks to go before the summer break, shall we say?

I think we'll probably have episodes all the way up to December 16.

And then we'll take a few weeks off over Christmas.

I really want to try and detach a little bit from the world and spend some time with my family before CES.

And then we'll be back with brand new fresh episodes from January the 13th.

So there's plenty to do there.

The magazine is done.

It's launched.

It is real.

Hilarious story.

I ordered 200 umbrellas, EFTM umbrellas.

I personally designed.

I knew what I wanted.

I've already told the story.

I don't know.

I've had the EFTM umbrellas before as merch.

And you know, when you go to a merch company, and my guy Lee from Scooter,

his CWDA Scooter, amazing merch if you just want promotional items.

You're with your logo on it.

And I've had plenty of umbrellas from him before.

And you get like four logos on the outside, etc.

But I wanted something different, something bold, something with the colors.

And I also wanted logos on the inside.

So when you're holding it up, you can see the logo couldn't do that.

So I found a factory in China that could make one.

They sent me a sample.

It was awesome.

Loved it.

So I ordered 200 of these things because I was having a launch event last week,

basically with the tech marketing and PR community in a room

at the Alpha restaurant in the city.

Thanks to the DD's group for their help with the venue and making it all happen.

It's not a cheap thing to do, put on an event.

And I don't know how to do it.

So their help was immense along with Howie.

And Howie, who's one of the moderators who is an events guy,

knows how to do events and puts on everything from huge,

a concert to the core stadium to silly little launch events for EFTM

at the Alpha restaurant.

Just brought it to life and it looked amazing.

Carl came from the Today Show came along and introduced me,

which was humbling and lovely.

And yeah, just kind of gave an update of the year in EFTM world

to the PR and marketing world.

And then launched the awards and announced a few of those.

And then the magazines are out there.

I've sent the subscription list is done.

So if you sign up now for a subscription,

you'll pretty much go to next week's, next year's magazine.

But I'll keep an eye on that and try and post a few out if I can.

But the printer in Melbourne in Victoria is going to,

Regional Victoria is going to send those out through the post office

in the next week or so.

So hopefully by, well, late November,

they'll be in your mailboxes, folks.

And please, when you get the magazine,

take a photo of it, share it on Instagram,

tag me at Trevor Long AU and EFTM.

Just, I love to see those.

I'd love to reshare those because it's kind of humble bragging

about how many people have the magazine, which is awesome.

And please let me know what you think of the Mac.

I'm really proud of it this year.

It's actually a lot more effort this year because I had to

write articles and stories and thoughts.

So yeah, I'd love to have your thoughts on that.

So that's all done and done.

So I feel much more relaxed.

I'm now in a position where I have 200 umbrellas

that didn't arrive for last week's event.

I was going to give them to the press, to the PR people.

So every single member of my son's baseball team

is going to get a free umbrella.

And they're too hard to post.

So no, I can't send them out.

I'm sorry, folks.

But I've got a lot of umbrellas downstairs.

I've got a lot of Black Friday stuff downstairs.

So now my days are stressed about things I need to get

done before the end of the year, reviews I need to do,

products I need to publish,

route videos I need to do before,

firstly, I get some time with my family and secondly, CS.

Because that is so damn close, folks.

So damn close.

But anyway, that is all to come.

Appreciate your support and feedback through that.

And by the way, the magazine has launched.

I've got it with me right now.

It is the 11th of November this episode.

So I should tell you that in the magazine,

there are 12 competitions, 12 weeks, 12 prizes.

And the first one started yesterday.

So keep your eye on my socials for these,

and you'll see them all when the magazine launches.

But this week's prize is an Oppo Reno 13 5G smartphone, 899 bucks.

Now the Oppo Reno 13 5G packs AI cameras,

smooth 120 hertz display,

and fast performance for gaming, streaming, and more,

all with 5G speed, long battery, and sleek design.

So it's a gorgeous phone.

We'll give one of those away next Monday.

And then from that week, Monday the 17th of the 23rd,

we've got a set of JBL 201 Mark III smart TX over-ear headphones.

These are premium noise-canceling headphones

with high-res audio, legendary pro sound,

and up to 70 hours of battery life with a smart TX transmitter

for seamless wireless control, the perfect travel companion.

Now, just for edification, just to look forward a little bit

because when you get the magazine, you'll see all these

on page 22 and 23.

We have an EcoVax robot vacuum.

We have an Arlo Home Security pack.

We have a JBL Authentic Speaker.

We have a ROG, ROG Xbox Ally.

We have a Samsung Bespoke Jet AI Ultra Stick vacuum.

We have a Fetch Mini with a year of ultimate pack included.

We have Motorola Razr 60.

We have a $2,500 high-sense projector.

We have a Netgear Nighthawk Wi-Fi router

and a Unity Den Dash View 60R dash cam.

Those are the 12 prizes that will lead us through to February.

And I can tell you right now,

my goal, my plan for 2026,

and I'll basically get producer Rob and the moderators

to hold me accountable to this.

There will be a spreadsheet, Rob.

There will be a spreadsheet.

My plan is to have a giveaway every week

or an entry mechanism every week

because I do have plans for one massive prize

and that competition will last a month.

So I plan for there to be something for you to win every week.

I want you to open the EFTM app every day

and be able to enter.

Just click the button and go enter.

Enter that competition.

I want you to feel like being a part of this community

could reward you with something very, very cool

and that could be a cool prize.

So download the EFTM app today.

Sign up for an EFTM ID.

It's free and simple and you just click win

and then click the item you want to win.

Simple as that.

Here on the EFTM podcast.

Great to have you company

and would love to hear from you

if you've got a tech question.

David's on the line today, David.

Yeah, Trev, how are you?

Yeah, really good.

Mate, we spoke a little while ago

about the idea of recording conversations

with your father

and the idea of what sort of microphone.

Where'd we go?

You were thinking about buying a microphone to do that.

Yeah, mate.

So I ended up going with the RODE Micro.

I think I ended up getting around about $167, $169

from Harvey Norris.

Good price.

So yeah, I think they're obviously running them out

because the newer ones are just about to land.

But this one worked perfectly for what I needed.

Like I said, I'll probably only use it a handful of times.

I'm no big YouTube star, mate,

so I won't be walking around with that clip in the chest.

Go on, do it.

I dare you to start making TikToks for your business.

Oh, mate.

Well, that would be the only other reason

I'd probably end up using it, to be honest.

Is just doing some social media for work.

But in general, no,

it's one of those things

I'll probably only use a handful of times.

Just please.

If you ever start doing any video content,

please, please use it

because it's the number one thing

that you can make videos better.

I watch so much TikTok and Instagram content.

I just think, wow,

that could have been so much better

if you had a microphone.

But anyway,

so have you done any change with your dad yet?

Yeah, yeah.

So he's just a recap here.

So he's recently diagnosed with cancer.

So I think they haven't really given him a time frame.

But if I was a betting man,

I'd say it's probably his last Christmas.

So that's what kind of ex,

but I did the process in my mind.

It was like a whole while I'm up there

because I'm six hours away from where he lives.

So I only get up there a handful of times a year.

But obviously recently,

I've had to get up there a little bit more.

So I thought, look,

while I'm going up there and spending the time up there,

I might as well do it.

So look, I was out there for three or four days,

three nights or so.

And I think you probably end up doing about 11 hours all up.

Geez, wow.

And did you do it really casually?

Like, hey, explain to him what you were doing,

but just saying, let's just watch the footy

or grab a beer and like just chat?

Yeah.

It was just literally that,

just sitting around the, you know,

the dining room table.

And yeah,

one night was pretty much about,

just after seven o'clock till about midnight.

And I was like, oh,

now I kept thinking to myself, geez,

I really couldn't go to bed.

And I'm thinking, well,

when am I going to get this opportunity to do this again?

Kind of thing.

So I thought, no, no, just kept going with it.

But no, look, it was good.

I ended up just using,

I did a combination of video as well as audio,

just off my Samsung S21 Ultra.

So I used the,

I think it's the Google,

I think it might be the Google sound recording one on my phone.

What worked really well with that,

which kind of saved me a bit of double handling was

when I went into the app itself,

you could actually select whether you wanted to upload it

to your Google Drive once you've completed it as well.

Right, right.

So when I did the audio recordings,

I just did a minute about 15 or 20 minute blocks

and then just stopped started.

So I made sure it was all working fine.

And yeah, it's automatically uploaded to the cloud.

So I didn't have to stress about,

oh, you know, is that working?

Is that going to stay?

Am I going to overwrite anything or any of those kind of dramas?

And it means you can go to the computer and go,

I can see it there.

So you can kind of see that.

And that's the proof point.

I had my tablet there with me.

So I just pretty much had that opened up on Google Drive

and my tablet and you can just see it pop up

and it was automatically uploading.

So just on the Wi-Fi.

So no, that worked really well.

I don't remember who I was having this conversation

with the other day.

And it's obviously a weird and sad thing to talk about

and even more so given the circumstances

with you and your dad.

But I was talking to someone about the idea

of just sitting and having a conversation

to write your eulogy.

Because how much do we know about our partners,

let alone our parents and whatever's lives?

And I think of it,

the term I would give it right now is like a living eulogy.

It's like, what a great way to encapsulate just everything

and the fun.

Hopefully there's some fun moments there.

Maybe there's some sad stuff.

There's those simple things like, where did you live

and what jobs did you have?

And then there's those crazy anecdotes.

Yeah, no, because it was exactly that.

That was a hard thing to try and keep on one topic sometimes.

But it digressed in some of the stories.

But look, made everything from, yeah,

like his high school to boarding school

to I'll see how he met my mother and dating

and then getting married.

And even his bucks nice,

some of the stories from his bucks nice,

which I probably would have taken some of those

to the grave myself.

But anyway, but some of those came out.

And yeah, yeah.

So look, a bit of everything in between as well.

You know, so,

and there's just some of the smaller family things

that I never knew of.

I never realised one of my grandfathers never had a license

and never realised he died before I was born.

So I never met him.

But I just had no idea.

He never actually drove a car.

Well, you know what's a crazy thing is?

It's always little small things.

Conversations, it's sad, isn't it?

Because we should have had these conversations

over the course of our lives.

But also, I think I've definitely heard stories,

but I've forgotten them.

Like they didn't really...

That was it.

When you were younger and stuff.

And here's the stupidest one that happened to me

just in the last two weeks.

My mum came up for the weekend.

And we were watching the Dodgers game a couple of weeks ago.

And it was, you know, crazy happening

on my heart rate racing.

And it actually weirdly reminded me

to take my blood pressure medication,

which I've only just started taking.

And so it's not a habit of mine.

Anyway, I said,

I've got to take my blood pressure.

And my mum goes,

have you got high blood pressure?

I went, yeah.

She goes, high potential.

And I went, yeah.

So she goes, your dad had that.

And I went, I'm sorry.

What?

Because when my doctor,

forever in my life, right,

forever in my life,

if my doctor says,

is there any family history?

I go, my mum's super healthy.

My dad died in a car accident

before I was born.

I don't know.

You don't think of a heart,

you know,

blood pressure as being an issue

for a 20-something year old.

And so I've now got to go back

to my doctor in a few weeks

and go, just so you know,

my dad in his 20s

had hypertension.

So yeah,

this is a family history.

Yeah, that's,

you're right.

You're banging on.

Oh Jesus.

Anyway.

And like I said,

there was a lot of stories that,

like I said,

I had heard bits and pieces

of all I remember,

but you're not sure if you remember

correctly.

And I look,

yeah, I had some wild stories

about driving across Australia

with a mate,

going across the Nulliball

plains in an old,

I think it was an old

valley or something.

So I looked there,

there was plenty of stories

that we had.

My last request for you

is to see whether or not

there's any power.

You obviously need to get

transcripts out of it,

but I'd love to know

whether perplexity, chat,

GPT, Gemini,

whatever it is,

could turn 11 hours of

transcripts

into a biography.

Oh, yeah.

Do you know,

imagine if you could do it

and it doesn't need to

summarize,

it just needs to,

you know,

put it out there,

put it down in a readable

fashion and maybe even,

you know,

a life summary.

Imagine being able to sit

down with your dad and go,

remember those chats we had?

Look at this,

because I mean,

he's going to be blown away

by any,

you know,

AI style use of it, right?

So imagine the conversation

where you go,

do you remember that chat

we had last time?

Look at this.

Here's some dot points,

you know,

key people in your life.

I don't know.

He could stuff it up though.

You've got to be careful.

Don't be,

don't be assuring it's

going to be perfect,

but yeah, awesome.

And the other good,

the other good thing I had

to one of my daughters

had come up with me

for that trip.

And she's 14,

14 for half an hour

and asked questions and stuff.

No, he was,

he was,

he was quite entertained

with that as well.

She was taking interest

in it as well.

So it was quite good.

Well,

what a great outcome.

I'm really glad

that you're having those

chats with your dad.

I'm sorry to hear about

his diagnosis,

but I'm sure you'll

make the most of every

visit from this point

forward for as long

as they last,

mate.

No dramas.

Thanks for my trip.

Cheers buddy.

Thanks for getting a touch.

I mean,

what a,

what a terrible

lovely stuff.

And there you go.

The road,

wireless micro.

Yeah, they are.

I think there is a new version

coming out I wrote

about on EFTM

and the basic

for just your mobile phone

one.

The new one

really only matters

if you've got a camera.

The original one

is really just

for mobile phones

and it's perfect.

Helping Australians

with tech questions

for over 15 years.

The EFT

in podcast

with travel on.

Look,

any good

questions

look,

in exactly one month

from today

kids across Australia

will be losing

their minds.

Parents will be

freaking out

because

we don't know

what the messages will be

but kids will be kicked

off social media.

I don't think

it'd be too much

concern for the 13-year-old

trying to get on

but the 13,

14 and 15-year-olds

who are already

on social media

and the 16-year-olds

who will probably

get accidentally

kicked off social media

well,

it's going to be a nightmare

I have talked about this

a lot.

I would say

aside from News Limited

who've talked about it

more than anyone

because they lay claim

to the legislation

there's really only one person

who I've seen

report on this

more than me

and ad nauseam

in a good way

and that is

Cam Wilson

the author of The Sizzle

which is a daily newsletter

you can get

and subscribe to

I would highly recommend

he also

writes for Crikey Doc

I don't actually know

Cam where you work.

G'day.

I work at both,

yeah.

I'm at TheSizzle

I'm at Crikey.com

dot com today

you I should say

and I

thank you for saying

that my obsession

with this has been

a good thing

my wife might disagree

because I keep chewing

hearing off about it

but I'm glad to have

a fellow person

who's interested

in it

to chat with it

about it.

Let's get our positions

on this clear

from the start

and I think my audience

knows my position

pretty clearly

but I don't

have a problem

with legislation

that makes kids safer

I don't have a problem

with a conversation

nationally about the problems

of social media

I don't have a problem

with you know

parents being

you know

brought to their attention

that there's some real

crap that goes on

online

where do you sit

on this general

conversation

around social media

and kids?

Yeah

I mean

I think pretty similar

and I think

you know

it is

you know

arguable that

social media

is causing some

social harm

to young people

some benefit out of

and you know

the evidence around it

and questions

about the complicated

relationship

with things like

mental illness

and wellbeing

you know it's very much

still up in the air

but I think we should

all be thinking about

you know

what we can kind of do

to reduce the risks

or something like this

and I think it's kind of

worth saying from the

outset that

you know I've been

critical of the way

that this bill

has kind of come

about

and some of these

processes

and what we've actually

ended up within practice

did not do themselves

any favours

for years

they have not done

enough to protect young

people in fact

like you know

one big part of this

there's really two parts

of the ban

there's this idea

that you are

you know

you're raising the age

to 16

and also

you're actually making

these companies

enforce this

this minimum age

these companies have

not enforced

the minimum age

which was a kind

of de facto

industry standard

of like

13 in the past

forever

at age up

you know

they can't really

feel too hard done by

because

they kind of

let this happen

they let

the algorithm happen

they let the kind of content

that was happening

they let

bullying and harassment

happen

and look

I've said a lot

that of all the platforms

I actually think Tiktok

does the best job

but at removing content

probably over aggressively

in many ways

and I think

Instagram's been

the latest to the party

but I think

that some of the things

we're seeing now

too late

in terms of team controls

and things like that

but my biggest gripe

with everything happening here

is that

the Prime Minister

is on the record

saying

we're taking this responsibility

away from parents

like

what are you talking about

why on earth

would we want to take

any parental responsibility

away from parents

is there anything

that you can think of

in legislation

that does that

other than this

social media ban

it's phenomenal to me

yeah well I mean

the government might compare it

to things like

you know

you can't smoke

or you can't drink

supposedly until you're 18

of course you know

we do the same with

what we'll see with this

there is a little bit of

getting around that

but there clearly are some

standards

but you know a big thing

in all of this

has kind of been

you know the government

is saying hey

you know parents

we know that all these

kids are on it

we're actually doing

your favour

in helping you

enforce restrictions on it

they're saying

I understand it

and so when kids

get around it

you can kind of say

it's the law

not to be on it

but it does take away

that choice from parents

who might say

I actually think that

you know with my kid

with our relationship

we might actually be

able to have something

that I think gets

more good than bad

and ultimately

maybe that's up to me

decided not just

to be told

that this can't happen

and that's again

one of my biggest

gripes is that

they didn't give

parents the choice

so for example

my kids

and I've got

my 15 and 14 year olds

they're going to be

booted off in a few weeks

from now

but I already managed

their accounts

through the Tiktok

and Instagram

parental controls

I see their usage

amounts

I see notifications

of their new friends

I limit things

I've taken responsibilities

of parent

but yet the government

hasn't given me

any ability

to allow them to continue

but here's the thing

and let's get into

the kind of weirdness

of what's going to

happen in one month

from now

we had a conversation

around the dinner table

and one of the things

is I do a video

it goes pretty well

on social media

and every kid

sees it

and so my kids

at school

get

it's kind of weird

but funny in the same way

and so

that's how I get

the information

of what teenagers

are thinking

and I said

to my son

last night

he said

can I use your ID

I said

yes

I don't care

I don't mind

I'm okay

as a parent

with you being

on social media

the problem is

in my thinking through

that is

what'll happen is

he'll end up with a parent

like an adult account

not a teen account

and therefore

I'll be left with

no restrictions

on that account

so I'm literally

in a position as a parent

where the government

has forced me

to kick my kids off

social media

and they've given me

no controls

do you think that

kids

forget VPNs

because that's

the obvious one

do you think the kids

will find very

quick and easy

ways around this

and just to

kind of

play exactly

clearly

what the law is

it is

making the

social media

platforms take reasonable

steps

to stop

kids

under the age of 16s

having accounts

on their platforms

and so this idea

it's all around accounts

and so

when it comes

for

when we're

looking at things like

TikTok and YouTube

you can still

scroll through those

as well without

having an account

and there will be

come December 10

kids still on

TikTok and YouTube

but

getting rid of these

accounts does

put people in

a pretty uncomfortable

place

and the government

from the start

is being like

we expect people

to get around that

kids will use VPNs

they'll get their

parents' IDs

they'll have a

fake ID

whatever they need to do

the problem is

like

yes

Trevor

while you've said

hey I'm

probably fine with it

although

what you mentioned

about this idea

it's safer

so they're kind of going

it's not like

they're just getting around

this wall

into the social media

they're actually

kind of going around

into the

Wild Wild West

of the internet

in a way

that's actually

less filtered

and less catered

towards them

I was thinking it's

just worth pointing out

that not everyone's

going to have a parent

who one is

is kind of

is willing to

help them on

in that way

and is engaged

is that

I think that

is a kind of concern

I'm going to give

my ID to my kid

and they do something else

or maybe they don't

get around it

and they kind of

excluded from that

despite the fact

they might actually have

a really good

relationship to it

there's so many ways

in which this

this war

as a band

is just such

a kind of broad

policy

that

you know

because there's

so many individual

cases

and different

people's relationships

and even within

social media

different kinds

of platforms

when people

are saying

I think there are some flaws

in this war

they're not saying

let's just let the kids do whatever

it's not band

versus no band

there are actually

a whole bunch of other things

including some stuff

the government says

it's going to do in the future

that they're not doing

and are kind of

losing this opportunity to do

because instead of that

instead of trying to be

able to do something

nuanced, interesting

they're just saying

ban them, get them off

and that's the solution

to this problem

Sorry, Ben

they're not saying

although Albo did

as you pointed out

this is a delay

that's the party line

this is a delay

and here's the other problem

that I have

the most with this is

there is

apart from

a press conference

where the minister

read out a list

that was provided

by the e-safety commissioner

I would argue there still is

no definitive list

of excluded platforms

because

there's just a guidance

to platforms

and a platform could be

any company on the internet

to go through a

seven-point checklist

to determine

self-determined

are we

a social media

age-restricted platform

and mate

when you go through

that checklist

and you play with pinterest

or discord

or you know

twitch

and all these different

platforms

I don't know

that you and I

could determine

accurately

what each of them are

so I don't know

how quickly this

ends up in court

because of that

very problem as well

Well yeah

I mean

the idea that

might end up in court

is very much

in the

country

about

potential legal challenges

in fact I even spoke

to a top constitutional

law expert

who said

I've been commissioned

to give advice to someone

I can't say who

so there is someone

out there

who is

you know getting

we can probably imagine

who that might be

but I mean

you're absolutely right

that there is a kind

of lack of clarity

around that

I mean

just like give

the opposite side

of the case

so just to kind

of say what

other people might

kind of put

out the time

they get rid of features

all the time

we've done

quite a broad definition

in the law itself

and you know

hopefully no one

knows the kind of details

of it

but it's very much pretty

much saying

any service that's used

for social interaction

which really

is everything

on the internet

because everything

is social now

and then they've

also put out

these like

they put out

rules and then

now the government

is saying

hey these are the

ones that

we're focusing on

for example

open AI

the maker of chat

GPT

just a few weeks ago

put out

this app

called Sora

which allows you

to make

AI videos

and it's very much

a social media

feed

they point to that

and say

social media platforms

just pop up out of

nowhere

we need the

ability to react

quickly

so

you know

they've kind

of said

we're giving

your intention

we're saying

but I think like

while I understand that

at the end of the day

you've got this

world first law

that you are saying

is you know

you're treating

that he says

crucial to kids

you're trying to say

that's going to help them

the kind of communication

the way that they're

telling people

and explaining how

all this works

I think has been

really subpar

and it's easy

for us as adults

to talk about

because we're saying

you know

like you know

government not the best

you know

the government's always

get criticized

only through them

who have communities

who do things through them

and a month out

you don't even really

understand whether

the platform you're on

is going to be in or out

I think there is this

great potential

for once

in the next couple of weeks

as these platforms

are supposed to start

warning people ahead of time

how you're being kicked off

and then eventually

you know having your account

deactivated or deleted

I think there's a

really just big opportunity

that a lot of people

are taken by surprise

and there'll be

a lot of like

grieving

or the fact that

they just lose this

with nothing real

I just think it's

you know

like the government

is clearly saying

we think this will do

a great thing for kids

and I've no doubt

that there are going to be

some kids who are helped by this

and the problem that I have

is that once you

kick these kids off

what are they doing?

We'll tell you

get back to the footy fields

don't go play ballet

Let's go play ballet

You're closer to being a teen

than I am

I'm pretty confident

but if I'm a 16 year old

17 year old, 15 year old

in the coming month

and I'm playing around with

where I'm going to go

or where I'm going to bring my community

or the people that I follow

and follow me or whatever

I'm opening a Discord channel

I'm finding the 16 or 17 year old

in the group that

can still access these platforms

and I'm saying mate

can you download this

and we're just going to

distribute videos

off TikTok

on Discord

in a chat group

and there's no regulation

over that

there's no censorship

there's no ability for a parent

to control what the kids

do on Discord

and critically

it's not part of the band

right now

and even if it was

I bet you there's another one

that is similar

that's where I think

kids are going to go

sharing videos

watching videos

and it'll be much more

specific videos

so it won't be algorithmic

it might not be as entertaining

and therefore it may be

worse content

and secondly to that

I think that there's a real

challenge with

what new platforms are created

and that's why we have

this kind of vague

nuance over the name

of the platforms

but we're not going to

know where they go

and that's the biggest

challenge

where do you go

if you're a 15 year old

trying to stay

interacting with

the community

yeah I mean

Discord could be anything

you know I even saw

an article

I mean this is hilarious

where like

in the US

NPR Radio

which is the kind of

public radio station

they found

they just noticed

that there were

all these comments

and they're old

radio segments

and what they found out

is that teens

who were at

presumably at school

and had very limited

internet there

and they were

coordinating

using a Spotify playlist

where they would

each day

someone would control

the Spotify playlist

put a

specific old

radio segment

in there

and then

they would all congregate

in the comments of that

and just use it

as an informal chat room

that would change every day

you know like

kids are creative

they will

find ways around this

I really do believe that

and in fact

unlike

you know

across the old guys

like us

who've been on these

platforms for a while

as well

but the thing I also say is like

you know

a big part of this war

has been

messaged by the government

is essentially

get the kids

off the phones

and onto the footy field

get them into the physical world

which is not where they're going to be

and I just

I mean

maybe there will be some cases

but many of them

will just find alternatives

hey maybe

some of them will turn

to chatbots

instead of real

social interaction

like I think it's

you know much more likely

that they just find

an alternative online

than they do

just go discover

a free footy field

and even around them

that are free

and that's why

the premise

of this delay

slash ban

is actually wrong

if you want kids

on the footy field

or at the local park

you gotta ban phones

you gotta ban smartphones

for kids under 16

or whatever it might be

and look

that's a whole other conversation right

do kids need smartphones

do they need this

like should they be

given those 36 months back

and all those things

I don't want to break it to you

but if you're a father

of 5 and 6 year olds

thinking

that this is going to

get your kids on the footy field

when they're 13 and 14

wrong

I've got 13, 14, 15 year olds

they go out the back

they have to play baseball

they're kicking around

my son goes to the park

he wants to go fishing

because he learned about

fishing on Tik Tok

he wants to do all these things

but still

in those moments

when I was a kid

I'd be watching MASH

and you know the A team

my kids are on Tik Tok

and social media

that's just how

kids are today

like this is the problem

is the missed

I guess understanding

I think

of generally kids today

you know we've changed

yeah

no I think that's totally

and I think the thing is

is like

whether you are

really for

the idea of banning kids

from social media

or you don't like it

I think actually

both people

like both groups

can kind of be united

in the fact that

the weight of this war

is not always that

you know we

I think everyone

has concerns about this stuff

everyone is worried

about new technology

how it takes advantages

of all of us

let alone kids

but we're also

we should all look at this war

and say

is it actually

going to do the things

that they've caused

and I just

I find the bizarre way

that it's done

is does not seal me

with confidence

it's actually even achieve

what it's supposed to do

which should be disappointing

to people who don't want it

and people who do

Kim you are the

only reason

I continue to say that

because I

I started saying

in my radio spots and things

I

I don't want kids

to self harm

I don't want kids to be bullied

but I don't think

that in five years from now

we'll look back

and see statistics

to be any different

and I started worrying

whether I was essentially

a lone voice

and you're not saying

the exact same thing

but you're essentially

have the same view

and I worry that

we're doing this whole thing

and the news limited group

won't have a campaign

in five years from now

to analyze the data

and find out that

in fact the tragedies

kids are still victims

of being kids

in a modern world

and there's not much

we can do about it

and that's not going to change

now the other thing

that I want to raise with you

before we talk about

another slight issue

that's going to affect everyone

is age estimation

so my biggest prediction

is that over the month ahead

we're going to get warnings

and pop ups

and especially on December 11

there's going to be a bunch

of people kicked off

and they're going to say

we think you're 16

because we've talked about this

before

the first point is you're

kicked off

and we think you're 16

you've got to prove otherwise

you know scan your face

your face ID

whatever it is

and we've seen

you've read the data

I've read the data

I'm not sure many people have

age estimation works

amazingly

to work it if you're over 21

it works brilliantly

to work out if you're under 10

but it is absolutely rubbish

at working out

if you are

the difference between 13

and 16

and I've said a million times

if you go to your local

sports field on a Saturday morning

and say what age group

are these kids

and they'll say under 12s

and you go

that kid's 15

and you go no, no

he's 12

there's just kids

of different ages

they look different

there's no way

age estimation isn't going to be

the biggest story

of December 11, 12 and 13

yeah I mean I think

there's going to be

something about that

I think as well

there's this

there's a particular group

of kids

who are actually

still legally allowed to be

on social media

who are going to be excluded

because there's this group

who's going to be 16

to 18, 20

who are within that range

of

where

technologies do not

make it clear

that they are over 16

so they've got these facial

scans

which by the way

obviously get a lot of criticism

and I think

there are a lot of

issues with it

but also kind of incredible

in the way that they can

actually

a couple of years

they can be quite good

and I think that's like

it's cool that technology

is letting us do that

but you know

they admit

it doesn't work on these

crucial little area

and so you say great

okay so

facial ID says

we can't say for sure

you're over 16

find another method

they say give us your

government ID

I mean like

16 year olds can go

and get a driver's license

they might have their L's

they might not have them

yet they might have a passport

and then you get to that

point you're like

well what do you do

you're just like

you were actually inhibited

from being on there

so I think like

again like

these are really really

thorny problems

I feel bad for the people

have to enforce this

kind of stuff

and it should be said

you know the government

the whole time has said

we are saying we are setting

the law

we are setting the kind of

you know punishment

if you don't

if these platforms

don't do it

but we are leaving it

to the social media

companies to figure it

out themselves

and you know

they are saying

they have been

like the social media

platforms have been saying

you know we think

that there are issues

around that

it is a

deeply difficult problem

and I think that

in all of this

we are kind of

you know we're not

thinking about these edge cases

of people

who were just saying

well they're just

we're just saying

well that's just kind of

how it happens

but when you have these

edge cases on

you know

I think there's roughly

like 1 to 1.5 million

people between

13 and 16

and you know around then

that's a lot of kids

who are going to be cut

off from these things

even though they're

supposed to still be on

there

mainstream media though

doesn't want to hear

ultimately

because it's not

tugging on the heart strings

that the tragedies

of this whole

problem have created

and there's no doubt about that

there's more clicks

in that kind of stuff

you mentioned ID

and government ID

and it's very clearly

written in the law

and I've

I've tried so hard

in the comments

of videos

and I've lost track

of it to say to people

no, no, no

you're not required

to hand over your ID

at no point

in fact in the legislation

that there

must be other methodologies

but in the end

tree of the platform. Like you mentioned, you know, you don't, you don't seem like it

from your activity. You don't look like it from your face. You don't seem like it from

this quiz or whatever they do. The only thing left to do is for someone to identify themselves.

Now they may do parental identification and things. But that brings me to quite an interesting

topic that is bubbling away. And I don't think anyone knows this happening is a change

to the way Australians interact with the internet from, I think it's December 27. How do you describe

that change and that legislation? Because it is a vastly different piece of legislation to this one.

That's right. So on December 27, there are new rules coming in for sections of the

Australian online industry. And the major one that people are talking about is changes that

are coming to search engines. These rules were actually written by the industry, but are registered.

So that means kind of like, they come up with these ideas about how they're going to regulate

themselves and deal with certain online harms. And then it's kind of, you know, kind of given

the tick and flick by the government in this case, the eSafety Commission. Yep. Yep. Okay,

that's we think that's enough. And then they are expected to abide by those rules. And in

those rules, the thing that is kind of getting the most attention is this idea that search

engines will start needing to age check their users. Because the restrictions themselves are

actually built around the idea that, you know, we shouldn't show, you know, when you're

googling something, and you're logged in, and we can tell you and we know your age, we

shouldn't show, for example, explicit gore content to young users. And the thing is,

you know, with a team such as MediaBand with this, if you want to check anyone,

like if you want to figure out who's 16, you've got to check everyone's age. And

so as a result, search engines for the first time that most people will kind of pay

attention to will be starting to change the experience that you have based on your age.

And when if you want to, for example, see a version of it, that is not filtered out

initially, there's not blurred, you'll have to, you know, prove your age in some way,

whether it's the data that they already have in you, you know, you've had an

account for 15 years, you're probably 16 years old, all the way up to the

stuff that we're talking about, like, you know, uploading government ID, there's

kind of a big change. But the funny thing is, you know, not only has this kind

of policy process, being a little bit on the like, you know, not many people

paid attention to it, even though it's kind of, it has, you know, hasn't been

the secret, it's happened out of the open, it's just, it's all kind of, I

think, pretty like shrouded in technical language. But the other thing is

like, you know, Google actually is already doing most of these features,

like they haven't waited, waited for the December 27 deadline, they are

already blurring content right now, if you like, if you look in, if you

go to Google, and you search anything, you know, something gory, something

explicit, you won't get shown the full thing, you'll get blurred images. But

what they're doing is these rules are saying that, you know, industries

propose these rules, we're codifying them saying that all search engines

need to do this, otherwise they're breaking the law.

And so basically the turning off of the blur. So if you end up with a

safe search of pornography or gore, whatever it might be, the turning

off of the blur will require a signed in account with some sort of

age estimation. To be clear, age estimation is enough, right? They

don't absolutely need to show your ID. That's where I think it's going

too far is people think that there's an ID requirement again. But

again, Google have had my account for a very long time. They know

exactly how old I am. And they know exactly the things that I

search for and how they estimate my age is remarkable. Let's be

real. Again, it's a technological marvel. But I need to be signed in

if I want to turn off that safe search. That's essentially the

change. And I'm assuming that also applies to adult sites and

things like that as well. Does it or does it not?

That's right. That's right. So in terms of IBM to show it on

Google. And I think the thing is, you know, you've touched on

something there that I think is I almost think the government

feels a little bit uncomfortable about saying this because it

picks at something that people don't feel very good about

thinking, which is that most of these major platforms have a

lot of data on us already. You know, all the time, don't

feel very good about that. Like you don't want to think

that much about how they're targeting advertising. But when

it comes to figuring out your age, when suddenly we're turning

these platforms, you can't just be showing, you know, explicit

gore violent material to kids, you got to do something about

this. Yeah, all of a sudden they've got all this data that

they can kind of say, Hey, we don't need you to upload your

driver's license. You've had an account for 13 years. You're

probably older than 16. You have a gov, a like a doc gov.au

email address. He must have a job. I don't know many

employees who are Yeah, exactly. I don't know many employees

who are like, like all these things that they can kind of

use to infer your age. And so that's kind of why I think, you

know, come December 10 with the teen social media ban, come

December 27 with this, I think we are like, while there's

definitely going to be a lot of pickups, there are going to

be a lot of I think, particularly the teen social

media ban, a lot of people who are caught on those like

edge cases are very uncomfortable. I also think just a lot of

people might not even notice at all. So that's why I think

we might have this weird thing where there will be some,

you know, some people and particularly groups, maybe don't

get as much attention will be like, you know, the 17 year old

saying, I can't get into it. Many of the people will just

kind of go on with their life. And I kind of think everyone in

this, you know, the government, you know, the tech

companies are really hoping that, you know, despite having

some initial problems that everyone it's kind of in everyone's

interest to kind of go on with things, you know, after

there is the initial coverage to move on, not, you know,

stress too much about how accurate the systems are, how

good they are at figuring out your age to kind of go on

because the government from their perspective, they said,

we've done the thing, the tech companies said, we've ticked

the box, everyone is kind of happy to say, we've done

something, and now we're kind of moving on. And I think

like, why I think in one sense, I think it's, we

shouldn't, you know, catastrophize, we shouldn't

say the sky is going to fall. Everyone is going to have

their government ID required every time they're like, I

saw, I saw a literary journal say every time you

search on Google, you have to show your government

ID. That's a crazy thing.

It's just abhorrently untrue and which, which is

fascinating to me because it's just such misinformation

that is spreading on that little topic that it's

driving people into a whole another level of insane,

which brings me finally to the digital ID and your

book, conspiracy nation. I haven't read it. But have

you got digital ID in there? Because that feels

like the second edition.

Yeah, we touch on it a little bit. You know, it

kind of, there has been ever since the Australia

Cards, Australia Cards, yes.

There have been security theories about how, you

know, government ID systems are, you know, the

mark of the beast and somehow, you know, evil or

whatever. It's hilarious to me because, and look, I

am, I have, I have purchased some tinfoil,

spoiler alert, I've purchased some tinfoil and

I'm going to, I'm going to fashion a hat out of

it and my next TikTok video will be addressing

the government digital ID drama because I feel

like it's my favorite thing to do is call

people out for being tinfoil had conspiracy

theorists because you know what, I got to

tell you, I think the digital ID is the

greatest thing in the history of Australia

because it's going to prevent hacks like

Optus and Medicare and others exposing our

data. And people that complain about a digital

ID don't realize the government already

has your passport and your driver's

license and all that information. All the

digital ID does is prevent it from being

handed over to the Optus's and the

MediBanks of the world. Hopefully, in

the future, we all sign in to everything

with a digital ID and we, we keep our

information safe. That's, that's the

future I long for, Cam.

Yeah, Trevor, first, I think it's a great

idea that you're protecting your thoughts

like that because we all know how valuable

they are. But no, I mean, I agree. And I

think like there are critiques of digital

ID systems, but I think what is the same

thing as the social media ban, everything

needs to be viewed as it's something

perfect versus nothing at all. In this,

like at the moment, if you rent a car,

if you go into a bar, if you try to,

to, to buy or rent a house, you've

got to hand over your ID. That's exactly

what people, you know, you're giving all

this information by not just your name,

but also your address and all this other

stuff as well. We do that all the time

and the whole, you know, benefit of a

digital ID system is that you can kind

of, you know, kind of make it at the

same time, prove your age without giving

away some of those little things. I

think there's a lot of value in it. I

think it's great that the government

has said, you know, with the teen

social media ban that you should have

options because clearly people feel

uncomfortable about it. And I think

one of the big lessons from COVID-19

speaking of conspiracy nation is

that while, you know, while, you know,

there are a lot of, like, you know,

there's so much about public health,

one of the things around, you know,

vaccine mandates that I actually spoke

to experts about is that while it

does, you know, encourage some people

to get vaccines, being forced to do

something also makes some people act

in a kind of reactive way that

makes them feel like they don't have

a choice and makes them more

contrarian about this. So, you

know, the way to get people to

update their systems, the way that

people to do all these things isn't

say you have to do it, the way to

give them options and it's to

communicate and to give people

information, say, actually, why

it's in your best interest to, for

example, have a digital idea that

can potentially give out some bit

of information that can prove your

age rather than saying, I'm going

to give, you know, everything about

my date of birth, my address to

every, you know, LJ hooker and,

and, you know, shitty bar that I

go into when I'm pissed on Saturday

night. Yeah, it's brilliant.

It's simple. But there's always

going to be the people that see

it as government control. God

love those people. They'll keep

your books written and many

editions in the future.

Love talking to you, man. I

appreciate the work you're doing,

the effort you're putting in and

the amount of content you've

written on this is, is mind

blowing. I have as of today

signed up as a paid subscriber

of crikey because it's my

little thing to do to support

journalism. I look in 2021

when Facebook kicked the media

off the internet, I signed up

to every paywall available

because I felt like it was what

we needed to do to support

media, to support journalism.

So if people want to read what

you've written, it's at

crikey.com.au and if they want

to subscribe to your daily

technology email newsletter, it's

called The Sizzle and you can

find that at thesizzle.com.au.

It's just a nice little flick

through every day to see what

you've missed on the internet

because I don't get time to

read the internet. So Cam

does it for me. It's ridiculous.

But I genuinely don't have

time, how you have time in

your day. But you, you

somehow do it. So well done.

Thank you so much for it's a

pleasure to be on here.

Join the conversation.

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magazine.

Greg's on the line.

I go, Greg, you don't know

how are you made really good.

We spoke before about your

your home internet.

You were I think you were

looking to go full speed on

the on the new two gigabit

speed plan because you got

five out of the premises.

So what did you do?

Mate, I did die.

I bit a bit it and I went up

to the two gig plan to the

hypersonic plan hypersonic.

Is that what it's called?

Well, that's what they call a

hyper fast or something like

that. Are you with are you

with Aussie broadband?

Yeah, they do call it.

I'm I'm with Aussie.

I'm a rusted on Aussie

customer being there for years.

So my mate, you know what?

I can't I'm back

in the day when the men first

came, I put two connections

into my home greedy, greedy

me and I put Aussie broadband

and I think maybe I Primus

or something and then I switched

the I Primus one to someone else

and then I switched the other

to vote if I and I had these

two connections because I was

doing a radio show from home

and then when I decided to get

rid of the second connection,

I just went, well, Aussie's

been unbelievable.

Why would I?

Why would I change?

Like, yeah, there's just been

zero reason to change.

And honestly,

the the customer support.

So I had a mate of mine

who's a complete Luddite

who is a very senior

executive in the Channel 9

current affairs team.

Text me and he goes,

oh, mate, I bought this thing

on your recommendation.

So I bought a NIT gear or be

and he's doing all this stuff

and he just can't get it working.

And he's unplugged everything.

Turns out he's stuffed up

and he gets on the phone

to Aussie broadband

and they spend 25 minutes

with him. He had to wait

like 10 and they walk

this absolute goose

through the steps needed.

And I thought, mate,

if they could talk him through it,

they can talk anyone through it.

And I was so impressed with that,

you know, plus for me,

for someone like me who

I would rarely call,

it would need to be a real problem

for me to call because in their app,

I've got all these features

that I can self-diagnose

what's going on.

I can kick the connection,

check the connection,

do all these things.

It's brilliant.

It's like I work there.

So yeah, I'm a big fan.

Oh, look, I live in the region

in New South Wales up in Central Coast.

And one thing I do like about

Aussie is they provision

well up here.

I don't I have no bottlenecks,

mate, it's really, really good

with my speeds.

Yeah. And that goes well,

because, you know, I've been a tell,

I was a Telstra customer years

or years ago.

And I said, I want to go up to

fastest speed.

And the customer service said to me,

why would you want that?

Yeah.

And I thought, well, I'm the customer.

I just really would like to go a bit faster.

And so they lost me soon after that.

Yeah. And that's the right move.

So have you stayed on the 2000?

Yes, mate. I've kept it.

I've had it for a month.

Look, it's been really eye-opening

of how good that connection was

and how slow things were in my household.

You know, the TV, the I use Fox

tell by the Internet.

Everything comes through,

free to wear comes through

because I've set up my channels to go IP.

And mate, they're so quick

and it doesn't, you know,

there's no cashiering.

So you're saying it's noticeably different for you?

Yes, it is noticeably different.

Were you on the 1000 or the 500 before?

I was on the 1000 before.

So you've doubled the speed.

And I mean, I'm honestly blown away by that

because I look at my internet and I go,

I reckon I could downgrade from a 1000 to 500

and no one in my house would know.

No, well, I have noticed immediately noticed

because my wife used to complain bitterly

about websites that didn't work on her phone.

And now there is absolutely silence

from that's the right side of the chair.

Absolutely nothing.

And I think it's great.

Happy wine, happy life, brother.

That's all you go for.

You see, I just did some trials with it.

I've got Netflix running through Fox tell.

And I downloaded some movies

and it's sort of 20 seconds

and I've got the half a gig movie.

However, what I did have noticed

is that my usage has astronomically doubled.

Really?

It's just gone, yeah.

Do you even try to check your usage?

It's unlimited.

Well, I know that I'm just curious

as to what's going down and back.

Greg, are you retired?

I am.

I've got nothing better to do.

That accounts for everything.

Come on, yeah.

I've got nothing better to do.

But you know why your usage has gone up?

I don't know that it's doubled for this reason.

Firstly, in your first month,

you're doing more speed tests than ever before.

You're testing everything.

You're actually just doing more than normal.

So that's a part of it.

But the other part is,

it may well be that things like Netflix and the like

have detected the higher available speed

and are sending you a higher quality picture.

Well, I've got HD on the plan with my Netflix anyway.

You've got HD and two gigabit speeds, bro.

Get 4K.

What are you doing?

I've got a 4K TV.

It's all right. It's all coming through.

You've got a 4K TV but a HD plan and two gigabit speeds.

Yeah.

You've got it all asked about, mate.

I know. Well, OK.

You're meant to be on the 4K plan

so that you can get unbelievable.

Oh, OK.

Mate, I want you to...

Mate, that's the next thing.

Switch just for a month.

Switch to the 4K.

And how big is your TV?

How big is your 4K TV?

Oh, it's a 63.

It's an OG 63.

So 60 is not...

I mean, it's big, but it's not the...

So on an 85 or 100, you would notice

in an instant the difference between HD and 4K.

I saw that big TV that you just did, mate.

And I was...

Yeah, OK.

You know, I haven't got a spare 40K to buy that sort of thing.

You know?

Well, look, I'd be interested to see

whether you notice the difference in 4K

because I do.

Look, I notice when we stream the NRL and 4K

on this new TV, you know,

I could actually name the blades of grass on the ground.

Yeah. That's how good it is.

And with Netflix 4K,

you can name every freckle on the faces of the actors.

I don't want to do that.

OK, I'll just watch the movie,

but you can name the freckles if you want.

Well, just get the wife to know the freckles,

but you know what I'm saying.

I know exactly what you're saying, mate.

Well, it sounds like you're going to stick with the two gigabits.

Well, I'll give it a go for a couple of months.

Oh, you're prepared to go back to not happy Wi-Fi.

Are you good luck?

Oh, yeah, maybe not so much.

OK, I'll just keep frippin' me,

EFTM magazine and just keep going.

All right, and just ignore it.

Well, I hope you're on the list for the new one.

Did you put your name down?

Yes, I have, mate. Yeah, I have.

Now I'm nervous. I'm going to check the list.

Hang on. Don't go anywhere.

Oh, OK.

Where's my EFTM magazine?

Well, I'm an EFTM subscriber,

so I should be on the list.

I don't really have a great database.

I'll be honest with you.

Oh, OK.

There we go.

Yes, I have your...

I'm not going to say your address, but I have you sorted.

You're on the list from last year, so you're under control.

Here's the thing with the magazine.

If you got it successfully last year,

you'll get it again this year.

But then there was a bunch of people who added themselves in.

There was a bunch of them I got returned,

so I tried to clean up the database a little bit.

Anyway, they'll go out in...

I think they'll probably go out late next week.

They're coming out of Victoria and they'll be shipped

and you'll be ready to read, so enjoy, mate.

Look forward to it, mate.

Really looking forward to it.

All right, mate. Thanks for getting in touch.

And enjoy the speeds.

Thanks, Trevor. I really...

I appreciate the advice, mate. Thanks, mate.

Good man. Cheers.

There you go.

Hang on. That's just wild, isn't it?

Isn't that crazy?

Two gigabit speeds.

A 4K TV and he's got HD Netflix.

Come on. Greg, what are you doing?

Good to hear from you.

You're listening to the EFTM podcast.

Join the conversation.

Head to eftm.com and click Ask Trev.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for now, Lighting.

Great to have you company.

Now, the way we work has changed forever.

And I think computers have changed forever

and it's a great area to unpack.

Given there's a lot of conversation about work from home,

mandating different things,

and then you look at the devices we have

and there's just so much range now.

Plus, this whole new AI world has driven it

way down the price point in the PC space.

So it's a very exciting time to be talking about

personal computers in the work environment

and the home environment.

And so to do that,

I'm joined by Neil Westoff from HP

who runs the personal systems team.

Neil, good day, mate.

Good day.

Mate, great to have you with me.

I'm fascinated by this concept of hybrid work

because back in the last time I held a real job,

it was over a decade ago.

But we're doing things like changing the workplace around

so that it was more...

Hybrid was...

They call it agile.

It was where you don't own a desk.

And in such a short space of time,

we've now gone from this,

well, not everyone gets an office

and then there's no fixed desk to now.

They might not even have enough desks in the office

for the number of employees

because not everyone comes to the office.

It really has changed forever, the workplace.

Yeah, that definitely has.

And I think obviously we can point to,

I would say, the pandemic for the acceleration

of that development, right?

It wasn't that we weren't doing versions

of hybrid work before,

but that's definitely accelerated.

And then coming out of the pandemic,

clearly we see the hybrid workers,

as you rarely pointed out,

well-established within how we work today.

And that has an impact on, of course,

how we range and what we do with our devices

to your point.

Because I think about workplaces, IT departments,

we're probably going back two decades.

It was just workstation or box on a desk

and a monitor.

And then there was a migration towards

more people got a laptop,

but it's still, again, 10 years ago,

it wasn't everyone got a laptop.

But now there really is,

it's the absolute minority

that wouldn't be laptop issued by work.

And it's a very hybrid device

because it needs to be hybrid for the user

but also the workplace

because the IT team still need to manage that device, don't they?

Correct.

It depends on, obviously,

for courses as with everything, right?

But if you look at generally speaking

from a consumer perspective,

coming out of the pandemic

and in hybrid work,

people are looking for different form factors

when it comes to weight.

They're looking for better security features.

They're looking for, you know,

AI tools as well these days,

which we can talk about a little bit later

in terms of what they could bring to them.

Connectivity becomes important.

Battery life becomes critical

when you're working in hybrid spaces

and then you translate that to enterprise environments,

fleet management, right?

Enterprise security features,

enterprise AI tools,

all those things start to come in play

with enterprise environments as well.

So we need to make sure as HP

that we cover towards that entire ecosystem, right?

So how do you describe the evolution

of the personal computer from HP

in the post-COVID years, really?

Because there is that consumer demand

as well as the enterprise demand.

Is it a wider range

or is it actually a kind of sharpened pencil

in terms of how each device

caters to the individual sector?

Look, there's...

If you look at different segments

within also the Australian landscape,

it does depend on the sector

and how you optimize.

I would say, generally speaking,

you want to have a broad range

to appeal to the different needs,

but the needs within different segments

can be specific, right?

You look at education,

then it's about more affordable devices

that have lighter weight

and longer battery life.

You look at...

You go up into SMB,

then it's more about affordable livers

that have a certain base functionality

inside the devices

that they can basically be more multi-purpose.

You go to enterprise,

you get into really specific premium devices

in enterprise AI tools

and security features

that those environments demand.

I think generally, fundamentally,

we need to have a broad range

that we can cater towards the market,

which HP has,

and then have specific solutions

to cater to the demands

of the specific individual segments

in the market.

I was thinking about...

I might have one here, actually.

HP laptop.

I was thinking about the actual look

of a HP laptop

and how you open them up now

and there's a logo on it

that says...

It's like a little waveform.

It's like a helix of some sort,

which indicates that this is an AI PC.

Now, help me out

because there is a bit of lingo in the market.

There's co-pilot,

plus there's just processes that do AI.

How does HP define an AI PC?

Again, that's a good question

because PCs can do AI tools

and AI work today

because it all depends on

what product across they're using.

We now have laptops in the market

that not just have a CPU

and a GPU,

but also have an MPU.

That's when you really start talking about it

as AI devices

or devices that are AI enabled.

And those devices

enable certain processing capacity.

They call it TOPS, right?

If you want to talk about that.

And that will enable users

to use AI tools specifically on device

versus just looking at it

in terms of cloud enablement, right?

And that on-device use of AI tools

is what you'd have to facilitate

with aspects such as an MPU

on a laptop.

Who's pushing the AI demand

within a workplace-issued laptop

for starters?

Because is it the workplace

seeing the advantages of AI

or do you think the workers are going,

well, why can't my PC do what my home PC does, for example?

Is it a bit of a combination of factors

driving the AI push

within an enterprise, for example?

I think within an enterprise

it is a combination of factors

depending on a customer you're talking to.

And it's a little bit broad-based

because if you look at,

and I'm going a little bit off topic,

but if you look at recent study, right,

then you can see that within Australia

77% of the people use AI today, right?

But only about a third of them use them daily

for their work-related activities.

And most of that work is still things like

doing searches, doing some learning,

doing some content creation,

and that's where it stops really, right?

So you translate that into workplace environment

and obviously companies are getting asked from their users,

hey, do I have the capabilities

to do these things also on a device I have?

And companies themselves are playing around

with how to adopt these AI tools in my organization.

And what do I need to mean

to actually cater towards devices?

Do I need AI capabilities on my devices?

Do I use cloud-based solutions?

And usually, by the way, it's a hybrid of both.

And so what you see

for most enterprise customers and customer-general,

they just want to be future-proof.

They want to make sure

they have the latest and greatest devices

that cater towards their needs today

and the potential possibilities

that the AI tools will give them in the future.

And that would also vary widely

industry to industry, wouldn't it?

Because I guess a teacher

or an education application

would be very different to, like me,

your small business,

I think of the way I use AI

is very different to how someone

who has a nine-to-five might operate.

So it is very much dependent

and that's again goes to the ranging

and the availability of different products.

Yeah, it is dependent.

But again, as I mentioned,

the majority of what people are using AI tools for today

is still very much that learning,

that content creation, that searching,

that advanced searching.

But you see that trend going

and you'll see that utilization increase, increase

as people are getting more familiar

with adoption of AI tools.

And that actually is touching upon

an important part of AI adoption,

which is the democratization of AI.

If you look at people use AI

or have an ability to have access to AI,

but if research studies that we saw

is that only like one in five Australians

have had any formal AI training at all

and over 70% have not any

any AI related training in the last 12 months,

the point being is that we see

that AI tools actually help productivity

and it's been acknowledged in research

also in Australia.

But then what needs to happen

is that needs to be democratized, right?

So that knowledge workers get

train, get access to the tools

and get training to actually utilize those tools

so that they can start becoming more productive

and more efficient than what they're just doing

on their own today.

Is there anything unique about Australia

in the market?

Obviously you would deal with your colleagues

and peers around the world.

You know, I don't know

why we would be any different,

but I wonder if we're any different here in Australia

in terms of the way we look at

and utilize PCs

both in the workplace and at home.

Well, I would always love to say

that Australia is very, very unique

as I live here.

Obviously, I'm not Australian, right?

And I love living in Australia.

But from the research, I have to say

there's not specifically something that's unique

to Australia when it comes to the utilization of devices

like this.

I would say that as a market,

Australia tends to be a little bit more of a premium market

if you compare to other markets

across Asia and Europe as well.

There's a higher focus on sustainability elements

there's a higher focus on securities

similar to what you see in Europe

in terms of those aspects.

And so I would say that it's a little bit

of a blend of different markets,

but I do think that where Australia stands out

is that more premium

people want to invest in devices

that give them access to the latest and greatest features.

I find sustainability an interesting one

because there's definitely

a cohort of Australians

who are unbelievably passionate about it

and will literally buy a product

based on a lot of the factors

about what it contains, where it's from,

all those different things.

I think the majority of Australians

simply have an expectation now

of sustainability in a way

because Australia has led the way in some places

around packaging, for example.

I think you guys have made

some pretty strong commitments about sustainability.

Is that a tough thing to make commitments

about when you're building computers every day?

I mean, packaging is one thing,

but there's a lot more to it, isn't there?

There is a lot more to it.

And look, HP has embarked already years ago

on a vision to become

the most sustainable and just IT company

in the world, right?

And that is what HP does.

And so we publish our sustainability

impact reports every year to highlight

and hold ourselves accountable

to the market around how we're progressing

against those ambitious goals that we set.

Be it in greenhouse gas emissions,

circularity, recycled content use,

packaging, and all those things

that we publish very openly.

And we make improvements every year

around those specific metrics,

also in the space of what we do

within the personal systems,

within recycled material use

within our PC devices,

the packaging that we're using,

all those things we continuously

to try and develop on.

Is it easy?

Not always.

Is it the right thing to do?

Yes.

Well, and that's exactly why I think it's great

that we have this almost

and like I get it,

I feel like I'm lucky to be at that cutting edge,

not just of the cool stuff I get to see,

but it's a non-HP style example,

but I remember opening a robot vacuum

recently and opening up,

and honestly, this company,

I get their robot vacuum every year,

the next generation, I open it up,

and I went, oh, no foam.

Like for the first time, I went,

wow, this is a completely different

packaging experience.

And I think that Australians will slowly

continue to have that very expectation.

How do we measure up globally in that sense?

I mean, I'm tipping from your accent,

we're talking Scandinavian,

Netherlands, somewhere like that, I guess.

Netherlands forever, yes.

That's a very, I mean,

I think of that whole region as being

very front foot when it comes to energy

and green.

Does Australia stack up well in that environment?

Pardon the pun?

I think so.

I think that on certain aspects,

Australia has always been on a forefront

of driving sustainability

and having those metrics in place

and where obviously,

when you talk about Europe, right,

a lot of it is driven by European Union legislation,

which cuts across everything, right?

And so there is a little bit of a bureaucracy

that they always have to deal with,

which I think Australia can be a little bit

more flexible with,

my personal opinion.

But the general gist is that I do think

that Australia is on par if not trying

to exceed expectations around

sustainable development within

anything that we do,

including the devices that we

offer to the market.

Now, HP has just released a report

about, just about Aussie workers.

Now, it's initially,

it's our relationship with work,

and it seems from the very

top-line data I've read that

there's kind of this gap

becoming a bridge, you know,

building between our love

and desire for work

and our passion for it.

Is that a way to read into this data

that you've obtained?

Yeah, so maybe just

to give some context, right?

So HP started the HP

Work Relationship Index Survey

in 2023, and we do it every single year.

And the reason why we did that

is because we do see that

people's relationship with work

has been changing.

And so we do this research

across 14 countries on an annual basis

with over 18,000 respondents

in different segments

around knowledge workers,

decision makers, business leaders

and if you look at the latest data

to your point last year

at a global level,

we tracked the main metric

which is if employees

have a healthy relationship with work,

that's what this is about.

And last year that score globally

was 28% gone down to 20% this year.

In Australia, last year

that metric was 27%

gone down to 14% this year,

year over year, right?

And if you dig into what's

driving that decline in

people's feeling of having

a healthy relationship with work,

some of that is driven by

market economic developments

like global politics, cost of living.

I've also bought a house in Sydney,

at Trevor's, I can relate to people's

opinion about cost of living.

There's experience that people

have close to home around job security,

redundancy that they experience

in their companies,

expectations from the company

in terms of work from office

versus work from home.

So all these factors have played

into that index coming down.

And so, yeah, in Australia,

we see that as well.

And it has been waning.

So what happens when that relationship

index comes down is that

people's loyalty to the company

starts to dissipate, right?

And there's less engagement

and there's higher risk

of people leaving the company

that they work for.

So how does HP

utilize that data?

Because it's fascinating data,

but you're selling computers and printers.

Are you doing it

so that you can say to companies,

look, you know,

when you're choosing

between whether it's brands or models

of devices,

think about the relationship

that your worker has with this device

because it's literally the touch point

for your office,

especially when you work from home, right?

Is that part of why you do this research?

Yeah.

So what we investigate then is

how can you influence

and improve that relationship with work,

right?

And what we find is that actually 85%

of a company's ability

to influence sits in the company's

own sphere of influence, right?

And a large part of that is what we find

is that when companies invest

in a technology

to enable their employees

to have a better experience working,

that has a 5x impact

in terms of their relationship with work

as an improvement, right?

And a big part of that is, for example,

AI tools, right?

So we see that over 40% of employees

that say they have a healthy relationship with work

work and use AI tools

on a daily basis.

So the way we look at that data is

we have conversations where we say,

okay, how can we provide technology?

How can we provide an ecosystem

that provides a seamless experience

for employees to work?

And by that token, knowing

that that will actually enable companies

enable them to have a better relationship

with their work.

So essentially, we need to see that

index track upwards based on,

and I guess you would want to hopefully

measure it based on companies that have

and haven't adopted certain practices.

Well, brand agnostic-ly,

if companies aren't working

with employees on AI tools,

for example, that can better their day,

shorten their work time,

different things like that,

you know, you can judge those companies

against others and see that work relationship

measure over time, perhaps,

you know, be vastly different

and see how, look, it's all about

looking after your staff, isn't it, really?

It's about giving your staff a sense

of belonging and not that,

you know, waking up in the morning going,

I don't really want to go to work today.

No, and at the end of the day,

it's not just about providing technology tools,

that's one part of it.

It also provides purpose, providing meaning,

recognition, support, empowerment,

all those aspects are very important as well.

When it comes to the technology part,

and this is back to why as HP,

we take a one HP approach to how we go

to the market and how we provide our solutions

is because of that, right?

Acknowledging that when people have a seamless

experience working in their environment,

that also comes down to having it

in seamless ecosystem they work in,

which is why we have this one HP approach

where we make sure our devices are connected,

work seamlessly together, be it from PC,

print services, collaboration tools

and everything in between, right?

That's where that is coming from,

because we want to provide that ecosystem

that then helps this employee have a better

experience from the technology point of view.

So what is it that excites you most

about where we're heading?

Because it's a very exciting industry to be in.

Let's be honest, we're very lucky people

to get to sit and really play a role

in seeing this industry forward.

It's super exciting.

Like, what is it that gets you excited,

gets you up every morning?

Many things, thankfully.

I'm very lucky.

But I think when it comes to this business,

I just love to see the fast pace

of the AI tool developments in general,

what I see in the market,

and of course how that impacts our relationship,

how we work, the devices.

Now we use those devices.

I think that really excites me.

I mean, I try and follow podcasts like yourself, Trevor,

and also YouTube podcast

that showcase AI development and tools.

And it's exciting.

It's very fast-paced.

It's hard to keep track of everything that's happening.

But it's really exciting.

And the one thing I also want to say is that,

you know, I used to use a quote by Henry Ford,

which is about, he was asked once,

if I would have asked consumers what they wanted,

they would have asked for faster horses.

And it was relevant to him developing the first car

manufacturing and mass production of cars.

And the point was that, as a consumer,

your needs are driven by your current benchmark.

People don't look at their needs from a perspective

of possibilities.

They know what they know.

And I think the beauty of that is,

if you think about all the things that are happening in AI,

there's a vast opportunity for us to educate

and to look at everything that we can offer to people

to make their lives easier,

to make them more productive, more efficient.

You know, all those things are within what will happen today

and what's happening in the future.

And I just love to be part of that.

You know, I don't know if the Australian government's

listing or what visa you're on, mate,

but a very, very, very important final question.

Who wins the Formula One World Championship this year,

given away your motherland?

Look, if Max wins it,

it'll be the comeback of all comebacks.

I don't know if you watched the Max and Ron Prix.

I think that's...

Yeah, I know this sounds like,

oh, you're catering to the Aussies,

but generally speaking,

I hope that Oscar wins it,

because I would love to see an Australian World Champion again.

I think it's been a while.

And Oscar is such a cool character.

You know, I would really love for him to win it.

And it's going to be very tight towards the end of the season.

So, let's see.

A man's citizenship.

And diplomatic too,

because a Netherlands man

wanting Max to win Living in Australia

and working for a company that is the title sponsor

of Ferrari, who's not in the fight.

You've done very well to navigate those issues

that I've thrown upon you without any notice, Neil.

I will always support Hamilton and the Clare,

of course, right, every day of the week.

I was at the Ferrari factory three weeks ago,

and it's phenomenal to me how...

This is completely off track.

Completely integrated the sponsorship of that team is,

there are shell service stations

within the Ferrari factory,

and there are HP logos everywhere.

Like in the Ferrari factory,

it's a phenomenal partnership.

Anyway, that's a story for another day.

It's amazing.

I have not been yet, Trevor.

So maybe next time I'll try and tag along as well.

But I would love to be able to see that.

I actually been a Formula One fan since the late 80s myself.

So I've been it for a very long time.

That's all Max's father raised.

Yeah, right.

Well, I haven't seen an Australian...

Alan Jones won the championship during my lifetime,

but I don't remember watching it,

so I'm very keen to see Oscar do very well, mate.

I'll follow that along with you, mate,

but in the meantime, really great to chat PCs and AI PCs

and follow the journey of HP,

and I'm sure we'll talk again soon.

Thanks, Trevor. Appreciate it.

The E of TM podcast

thanks to Swan MaxRanger4K,

Strongest Wireless Maximum Security.

Now, I buried the lead on next week's show.

And I should have mentioned it early,

but I'm still touching wood on it.

So if you're listening this far through,

the plan is next week

to have the e-safety commissioner on the show,

Julianne Grant.

Honestly, we've been back and forwarding

on the date for this conversation

for a long time.

And look, she's a very busy person.

I'm just a podcaster to them.

So a tough one,

but I really, really hope that we have time

with the e-safety commissioner next week.

If you are listening now,

live to this show in the week of the 11th of November,

and you have questions for the e-safety commissioner,

send them to me.

I'd be curious to know what you're thinking and want to know,

and I will put them to her next week.

Right here on the E of TM podcast,

thanks for listening, folks.

You

Kids Social Media ban a month away, plus our relationship with work and technology

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