Lando's title push, tearing up the racing rulebook, and Ferrari's 'talk less' turmoil

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Sí.

Plenty of opportunity for one of these guys to drop a big score.

I mean, you know, still, did you go to the Vegas race?

I mean, that is, that's a tricky old track.

Very.

And, you know, getting all the cars round turn one and all the rest of it.

Yeah.

So anyway, lots, lots of jeopardy out there for for Landau.

And it's sunny, but he can finish second and become world champion

if Oscar wins everything, but I don't think it's going to happen.

No, I think that is a good chance.

There's still a chance that Landau could drop an entire 25 pointer.

Yeah.

To Oscar.

We've mentioned Max.

He's going to be in the mix.

Antonelli, George, they can be in the mix at the same time.

So this is what I mean.

There's a lot of sort of stuff that you cannot control.

You've just got to focus on the job that you're doing.

And at the moment, Landau just has the right mentality.

Yeah, because the starts were an issue.

Weren't they got that beautifully?

He's fixed that.

Well, Mexico.

Yeah.

Mexico.

Twice, three times.

No, I think twice.

I think it's twice on the trot.

And they've been not just OK.

No, they've been really good.

Really, really good as well.

So all the ingredients are coming together.

But we're going to Vegas next.

And you've got to still worry about the Mercedes.

I mean, you're talking about Mercedes,

but you're talking about Max now.

And then you're talking about Ferrari as well.

Because don't forget, Charles can pop it up there as well.

I'm not saying Luis can't, but you could you got so the dominance.

They had at the start of the season now that is gone.

They are being nibbled at by these other teams.

And so that you're right to say is you only need one little slip up

in quality and you're down in fifth place.

I mean, was it the quickest or the closest top 10 grid ever

in the history I heard?

Yeah, so the margins in qualifying can be very, very damaging.

So there's a lot of jeopardy out there for the McLaren drivers.

Both of them, really.

They are under attack from all the others, which is good.

And they're under attack from Max, obviously.

What a drive in Brazil.

What a drive.

What was the comment you said you describe Max's drive as Senna like?

It was.

Don't you think?

Yeah, totally so.

I mean, he just sides this way through and was phenomenal

and on the limit the whole way through.

And I think what a place to do it.

I mean, I mentioned Senna.

Luis did it in Hungary in 2014.

So he did the same thing on the podium from time to time.

But it was decisive, every move is decisive.

The pace is there, the commitment is there.

And it's great to watch.

And the fight as well.

Yeah, it is great to watch.

So well done, Max.

Yes.

I'm sure he wants to win.

But he put on a good show from the back there.

And some good overtakes.

But if we're talking about overtakes,

do you think we should touch on the one that happened

that was damaging to?

Yes.

Now, as ex-drivers and ex-duid.

Well, we're both ex-drivers, but you did more than I did.

I did more than you.

Yeah.

So this penalty thing, some people are really against penalizing

and making too many rules about overtaking.

Where are we at with our sport?

Well, again, when I did the stewarding,

we have the guidelines.

And the guidelines are what the team and the drivers sit down

and discuss.

Gary Connelly is one of those.

I know he's very, very involved with that side of it

of what they want us as stewards

or want the stewards to look at during a race.

So it's a guideline of overtaking

or whatever it may be during the race.

I never liked it

because I thought why are we making up rules for racing

when a driver, especially a Formula 1 driver,

are the very, very, very best.

And you know very well.

We have a very good spatial awareness.

We're very aware of what's going on.

Why do we need a rule to say,

well, if you're not quite far enough up the inside,

that's not your corner anymore.

And then my issue is, let's do Brazil.

So I'm going to go in the cockpits of both drivers.

So I'm with Kimmy.

So Kimmy launches, lights go out, away he goes.

And you know within what, five meters,

you've got a good or a bad start or an okay start.

And once you know,

that's not quite as good as I thought

because you can see Lando pull away.

You look in your mirrors and some people say,

well, you can't see anything in the mirrors.

You can't see everything,

but it gives you a very good idea.

You know someone's there.

Or you know if they've suddenly got a good start.

And actually Oscar had a good start.

So did Charles on the other side.

So they both were actually swamping him

and that point of view.

So he looked on the left

so we can see him actually look.

So he's aware

that Oscar's actually making that move up the inside.

And then when you get to just before the breaking point,

they're sort of not quite level,

but I think he's very close to that mirror.

So Kim is very aware that he's doing it.

Oscar's aware that right,

I've got an opportunity at this one.

So you're always aware of what is going to be happening

when you get to that apex of that corner.

And this is another thing I don't like about the guidelines as well

because the apex is not really the overtake.

The overtake is done before you get there.

That's almost like a dive bomb to get to the apex.

And I hate it where it's always fixed on the apex.

Anyway, so Oscar thinks he's up the inside.

Me then stepping out as a racing driver

and I go into Kim's car.

I'm aware that he's there.

And I know that when I get to that corner,

if I cut it, there's a very good chance

that I'm probably going to make contact.

So I try and give a little bit of space,

but I'm also aware that Charlie's on the outside,

but he's aware as well.

He was, but there was quite a large gap

to Charles on the outside.

He was quite wide.

So, but as you say,

your racing driver's job is to make it difficult

for the person, but trying to overtake you to do it.

But I think Kimi was too tight on.

I don't think he gave him enough room.

No, honestly.

But if the rules,

if you go by the regulations of the guidelines,

Oscar wasn't far enough.

According to these new rules,

whereby you have to be,

is it the front wheels have to be alongside the mirror?

The mirror on the racing of the car.

At the apex.

By the apex.

Well, we're a long way from the apex.

We're a long way from the apex.

But you know that's not where the overtake is done.

That's the final part.

The actual overtake is done before that.

And I'll just throw this one into quickly.

David, you've been stepping as well

when I do eventually shut up,

is I know there's a car there.

I don't know where he is.

I'm trying very hard to be great.

No, but it's a lot.

I think for people listening,

you know, they want to know

that there's going to be a race

and they don't want it to be not permitted.

You know, they don't want a rule to say,

you can't, you can't overtake.

You've got to be able to have a go.

Yes, and that's not doing that at the moment.

It's not working for that.

Well, because drivers are trying to work

to the regulations.

So in other words, they're saying,

if I can just get my wheel

alongside there to the mirror,

then if we both crash,

it's not my fault.

No, no, no.

Well, what's the point of that?

Yes.

And you know, if you didn't have any rules,

then you wouldn't be thinking that at all.

You were just thinking,

I want to get passed

and I don't want to crash.

You know, that's,

I don't want to crash it.

You know,

might put both of us out the race.

That's an error.

Everyone's error.

Yeah.

So there is the argument at the moment.

The big discussion is

whether these regulations

about overtaking are just

over complicating things

and also most of the very best

with the best judgments

and the best awareness

and the best understanding.

They keep crashing into each other.

Well, no only crashing

because of the guidelines.

I mean,

because the guy,

we crash into each other

through our racing careers

and it does happen.

You try,

you try and not put yourself

in that position,

but my problem is with Brazil.

Kim will have known,

well, I think I'm far enough ahead

and Oscar's thinking

I'm enough up the inside.

What does that create?

Well,

it creates a crash

because they're thinking

because of the guideline

that I'm in the right position.

So it's my corner.

No, no,

you have to earn the corner.

You don't earn it through wording.

You earn it through being

in the right place.

I'm just rewound.

That was the sound

of rewinding going on.

It was really bad,

but it was really bad.

We're going back to Singapore.

Yeah.

In Singapore.

Lando tries to

go down the inside of Oscar.

It doesn't quite,

it's not a very tidy job.

He bis into Oscar

and Oscar is disadvantaged by that.

And then nothing happened about it.

So...

But was that racing?

That was...

Was that racing?

Yeah, it was racing.

It was racing,

but someone had to deem

whether or not someone's at an era.

So they had internal discussions

if my memory is correct.

At McLaren,

and they decided,

oh, that's very naughty,

but Oscar will claim,

will say,

well, that wasn't really penalizing.

Lando, he wasn't penalized

for knocking into him.

The difference between that situation

and this situation.

So I think what I'm saying is,

I think Oscar's slightly frustrated

about the way things...

The situation.

Yeah, and he may be justified

in being frustrated

by what happened,

getting a 10 second penalty

for the incident in Sao Paulo.

But I think the difference

between this one was

another guy,

sort of innocently,

Charles de Clair and Ferrari

was put out of the race.

Sure.

So what Oscar did

had a pretty serious consequence

for another competitor.

Yeah, but that's racing Daymond.

That's sometimes...

It happens like that.

And I don't think you can then

add these rules to try and stop it

because clearly it still doesn't stop it.

Anyway, but then there's the blame game

that goes on.

The interesting thing with that

is Charles said,

well, it wasn't really Oscar's...

It wasn't fully Oscar's fault.

So that's Charles,

who's the guy that's actually

gone out of the race.

So even another driver

is looking upon what we're discussing

and going, well, it wasn't fully Oscar's fault.

It was Kimmy

because Kimmy didn't give him enough room.

So they were both at fault.

The other issue that I had as well

is the stewards said about the lockup.

And the lockup is then

where you're out of control.

But it was a split second of lockup.

Now, are you out of control

when you do a little lockup like that?

Well, I would say

well, the way I interpret it,

that was he realized at some point

they were going to crash

unless Anthony gave him some more room

or he could slow the car down

and I can get out of the situation.

So that's why he was locking up

is because he realized that.

Well, I think that's kind of admission

of guilt in that.

He realized it's going wrong

and I need to change my decision here.

I need to break hard and pull out.

But that's only because you're seeing

the gap come get smaller

and smaller and smaller.

He's not going to give me his maze.

He's not going to give me space.

How do I get out of it?

Can he vanish?

Can he push a button and vanish?

No, you can't.

No, so I don't know.

I can't see.

I can't imagine

how they see anything out of the cars

they're in at the moment.

They've got the so swamped inside the car.

They are still aware of what's around them.

But you know, Max used to apply this rule

because there was a consequence of this mirror rule thing.

Yeah, which wasn't properly thought out whereby

if somebody is if you get to the apex first

and the person is so you've got a car

you're approaching a corner

a bit like in Sao Paulo

we've got let's say Kimmy is slightly ahead

and the car on the outside is slightly ahead

and the guy on the inside is gone for the gap.

If the guy on the outside

manages to hold it to the long enough

but the guy on the inside

has got his wheels slightly ahead.

He can run him off the road.

Now, I think they might have changed that regulation.

But anyway, so what I'm saying is

that people play to the regulations.

So it's changing the way they go about driving

so that they're within the rules.

And of course, you have to ask the question.

Then we want to ask the question.

Well, if there were no rules about overtaking,

how would you drive?

What would you do?

You wouldn't be smarter.

You wouldn't put yourself in a position

where potentially you're going to either hit another car

and that's why I say with Kimmy.

Kimmy could have given them a little bit more breathing space.

Now, could Woody have lost that position

and is that fair that he's given up that position?

And I remember James Hunt telling me many, many years ago,

bless him, that there are occasions you have to give up a corner.

And that's the small part of it.

So that's where it's different.

That's where it's different.

And the other thing is in James Hunt's day,

it was lethal.

You know, you wouldn't.

People didn't typically bash into each other.

I mean, famously there is the Arnau Vilnav Dijon race.

Well, he did bash into each other.

But then I would argue that because they had ground effect cars

and they basically was no-have interlocking,

you could kind of nerf each other.

So they were nerfing, which is a good old phrase.

I remember my dad using that phrase.

Anyway, nerfing.

And I hope he's not rude.

He's probably...

No, I don't know.

We'll get that checked.

No, it's not about you.

It's too late.

But the fans love it, of course they do.

You know, it's wild, it's crazy, it's exciting.

And I think you could argue that.

If there's no complaint from the driver,

then maybe there's no complaint to investigate.

You could have a situation.

No, but they do complain sometimes.

Well, they always complain because they know it's going to have an effect on them.

Because they know it's...

Exactly, and that's my problem.

If you were to have an issue,

have an issue with the driver,

pop down to his garage after the race and have a word.

That's the best way of sorting it out

rather than saying, oh, but the rule says this and it's this and that.

And the other, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that.

No, no, no.

Together, I think the driver should sort it out.

I do think having a word is a good idea.

And the only reason I say that is because I offended a driver once

in qualifying run in the French Grand Prix.

And I was going, I was on a really hot lap.

And I could see this guy was about to start

and he was turning in and then I thought,

no, mate, I'm coming through.

I need that, I need you not to do that.

And I just bifed him slightly as they went past.

Anyway, I mean, I outbreak myself from the last corner.

I miss the pedal, but I managed to get through

and I beat Alan Prost for pole position in the French Grand Prix.

Did you lose the pole because you...

No, no, no, nothing was meant to do that.

So in the excitement of my pole position,

I completely forgotten about hitting the guy.

It wasn't hard, but I did hit him.

And anyway, we're qualifying in, in Germany at the pod climbing.

And I come up against behind this guy,

I'm not expecting anything to happen.

And I'm going to go into the sax curves.

You come through into the stadium.

And then he just started moving across

and he kept on moving across and he kept on moving across.

And there's a point where I'm just going,

what are you doing?

You know, man's completely mad.

Anyway, I weren't meant.

I went embarrassing by mentioning his name.

He's not around in the world,

but basically it was revenge for what I've done.

And you know, when I went and spoke to him afterwards,

I said, what the hell are you doing crazy crazy?

You said, you never said sorry.

All I had to do is say sorry.

Yeah, but I was in the gravel.

Wow.

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you do people, what's it?

Best, best dish, best top cold, is it?

Revenge.

Yeah.

Yeah, he really did that.

Well, that class is being dangerous now.

If he did that.

Well, he was exactly, but I don't.

Yeah, that's very different because

where it's a judgment that he was making with you.

Mmm.

It's this between us.

Yes, it was just between us.

So I still have to explain why I was in the gravel to Williams.

But you know, I think that I do.

Anyway, I don't know what to say because I think

you can't go around the place bashing, knocking.

No, of course.

No, no, no.

And so there needs to be some regulation.

Yeah, but we don't go there going where I'm going to smash him out.

Okay, this is this is the steward.

Drivers don't do that.

I mean, contact has become.

I don't know where it started.

I mean, there was because the cars are a bit more robust.

Now they kind of get get away with bashing chip.

But how many times do you see a race room

because you've damaged the front wing and plate or whatever.

Yes, yes.

And you just go.

Yeah.

And it's very difficult.

These cars are huge

and they've got lots of sticky out bits, particularly the front wings.

Yeah.

And so to get a clean pass on a car is really difficult.

You have to be really committed to get the whole thing through.

And the guy know you're there and give you give you room

if you're talking about going down the inside.

And I think that we have to do.

We have to know whether there's a sport element to the whole reason.

They had driver stewards in the the Jon Todd started this.

So he he actually went and saw him in in Paris about this.

And he was driver stewards and he was going to get them.

And I think it's great idea.

Yeah.

When I turned up to my stewarding in Monaco,

yeah, I had to join the F become a FIA steward.

And that wasn't my original understanding.

My original understanding was you have stewards.

Yeah.

But they don't they not they're not racing drivers.

So the criticism was they they were making decisions.

They didn't have experience of being out on the car.

They needed a little bit more insight.

Yes.

So my understanding would be steward.

The drivers would be just an advisor to those stewards.

Yes.

And they and they get situation like term one in Brazil.

Yeah, we haven't got past term one in Brazil.

No, we're still on the entry.

We're just getting past restart.

But anyway, we're getting we're not staying on.

Are we staying on track?

Anyway, yeah, we're there.

But we're getting there.

I'll finish my point.

My point basically was in that situation.

Let's say the stewards would have gone.

I don't know.

Maybe that was was that bad driving and they'd ask Johnny Herbert.

Yeah.

And they say, what do you think?

And you'd say you'd say my opinion that that's just racing.

That's racing.

OK, there's nothing in the regs.

They don't have to do anything.

They could they could throw the book or something.

But then, you know, guidelines are only guidelines.

They're not actual.

It's not a rule.

It's not something we have to do.

But it's what the teams and the drivers want us to look at.

Those guidelines are there for the stewards to be able to look.

Well, that's what they want us to look at.

OK, right.

We apply penalty for that.

It's the consistency that is always there.

Beef.

And that's where that's the guidelines is trying to help that.

But I still don't think it's really allowing the racing

to be as pure as it should be.

Here's the thing.

So we got a 10 second penalty.

Was it a racing incident incident?

Or was it fair that it was a 10 second penalty?

What do you think?

I think it's a racing incident.

Yeah.

I think on balance, I think.

You know, sometimes you're the person, you're Charles

on the outside.

Unluckily gets hit by something.

Because once you start trying to make these rules,

you open a huge can of worms.

And I think.

But I do think there needs to be a way of saying the sport

saying we're not allowing bad driving standards.

When we're going to come, we've got to somehow contain

people who are abusing the sport.

Let's say by driving too aggressively or dangerously

or whatever.

What do you do in those in that situation?

Maybe that's where the penalty point come in.

That's where having your license endorsed.

I think that is definitely worthwhile, for sure.

It makes you think.

The only good thing, if there is a good thing,

I would say coming up with a 10 second penalty

that is applied during the race.

So you had the statement that went up on the screen

a moment ago where it shows the FIA.

When you see it on television,

you'll see the FIA are investigating.

So during a race, they've got a massive workload.

They've got to run it.

They've got to look after much race.

It's been referred to the stewards

and the stewards have to review it.

But you don't want a result that is delayed

until after the race.

So I think if you're going to do something like it,

getting it done during the race is the best way

so that people don't have to unravel the results

24 hours later, because that's bad for the sport.

So I'm not against that.

But I wonder whether the right way to do it

is to have just the endorsement.

Either that or make the drivers pay for the damage.

It's one way.

It always hurts them.

That might stop quite a lot crashing.

Yeah.

I think so.

Anyway, the guidelines.

I've never been a fan of the guidelines.

I don't like the guidelines

because I think the guys that are on that grid

have earned their place

and they are the very, very best at what they do.

We don't need to have external influences

coming in to tell them how they should or shouldn't race

and then using it like you said,

using it to their advantage.

Well, I think we've done this to death.

Yes, we have.

I might have a biscuit.

And my tea is going cold.

Yeah, I know.

I think it is.

Can we get another one?

Can we get another cup of tea?

Cup of tea?

That would be good.

Okay.

Let's get one.

I need refreshing.

So do I.

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Okay, Johnny, what about Ferrari?

What can we say about that because?

Yeah, what can we say?

Because it's been a bit of an up and down season

and we got some sort of hints that the drivers are massively frustrated.

And of course, Lewis is struggling manfully along with just like never ending abuse.

It seems to me, you know, he gets penalties for doing...

Self abuse as well.

Yeah, I mean, he says honestly, he's living a mere at the moment.

Yeah, very critical to himself as well.

And they've had issues to do with their car, of course.

But John Elkin, who is basically the head of Ferrari.

He's the president of the chairman, it depends on which article you read.

But he said of them recently that the drivers should focus on driving and talk less.

Now, that's caused a little bit of feathers being ruffled.

But of course, Lewis has responded and said he'll always give it a hundred percent.

So they're trying to kind of dampen down that.

But, you know, having the boss point the finger at the drivers.

I know.

You know, when maybe it's that deflection.

I mean, aren't the drivers trying the best?

Well, I think it's fair what they're saying.

They're critical of the team and the performance of the car.

And that's their job.

Their job is to one, drive it as fast as they possibly can.

But to drive it as fast as they possibly can to win races and win a championship,

you need a good car.

So that's why you have to sometimes be a little bit vocal to say,

we need to change a few things to make this thing work.

Because at the moment we are still struggling when the expectations of Ferrari are so, so big.

So I think for John to come out there and try and almost tell the drivers to shut up

is probably not a beneficial thing,

because I think it only sort of makes it a little bit more difficult for the drivers in that environment

because their job is to be critical of the team.

Yes.

Their job, that is the point.

I mean, I've I've got a little story about being critical, which I'd like to lob in another,

which is when I first tested with Williams,

I got a chance to drive the new car.

We went to the short circuit Silston and I went and did a few laps

and it's my first time in the proper car.

And Patrick Head said to me when I came in, he said,

well, what do you think?

I said, it's brilliant.

And he said, he said, we were hoping you'd be rather more critical.

In other words, they can't they can't make any progress unless you find some faults in it.

You know, you can't just sit there guys.

That only happened once.

Right.

OK.

Yes.

You learn from that one.

But it's interesting because that's what Patrick needs

to be able to improve upon what you had in, you know,

when you were driving the car.

So yeah, I mean, you and you're right, you said it was fantastic,

but you would have been critical during that test and said we need to do this

or find this or a bit of understeer.

So what is the question?

It's always how do we go fast?

I took a fast.

So in other words, you got the perfect car.

Then it's very difficult to say.

Yeah.

If you said it's fantastic and gone home.

Yes.

That would have been a slightly different.

That's what Nigel Lancel did.

Oh yeah.

Well, that's very Nigel.

Yeah.

Nigel will be very deep.

At least one heart rate.

That's what you were there for.

But again, we're talking about Ferraris.

Yeah.

In this situation, there is clearly it's not been a great season for them.

Their hopes and expectations have rather been for.

And it also Lewis's fanfare arrival.

Yeah.

The shares went up when he announced he was going to drive for Ferrari.

And now they've gone down again.

The job expectations are high, but you've gone down with it.

Yeah.

So I mean, this is a guy whose job will be to look at the results for the company.

Sure.

And share price matters.

You know, if he's doing a good job where things are going well.

But we're talking about the car company as well.

So the Ferrari road car company.

But you know, all the branding depends on.

It's interlinked with their image as a successful team.

And they've not had enough success for all the investment.

And so really he must be.

I think he must be under a bit of pressure somewhere feeling the heat a bit.

Yeah.

Anyways, decided to say something.

I think it was a little advised because I don't think that's helpful.

No, no, no, no, no.

It's not.

No, the drivers haven't got the best equipment.

No.

So is that their fault for being outspoken about?

No, it's not.

The problem is it's back at the factory, unfortunately,

where the engineers haven't been able to produce the goods for the drivers.

Great.

Yes.

He said they're winning a world championship.

So the mechanics are okay.

But the drivers, the drivers not.

But they're not the ones who design the car.

I don't believe.

No, no, exactly.

What have you just designed it?

They're the ones.

I think we could have done a better job in many respects.

That was a bit harsh.

I was a bit harsh.

But it's the team around the drivers that haven't been able to produce the car

that the drivers need.

If the drivers had the car, they wouldn't be commenting in that one.

Isn't that Fred Bassar's job then to get performance?

So why did they not?

Well, there you go.

Mencion Fred.

Precisely that, yeah.

Anyway, listen.

That's a little bit of a flurry of dissatisfaction sort of in Ferrari.

And of course, you know, Ferrari is such a huge story every time.

They often say that Formula One is Ferrari or Bernie.

You say Formula One is Ferrari and Ferrari is Formula One.

There's no way of extricating the two things.

But there are two religions in Italy, as we know.

Yeah.

Catholicism and Ferrari.

Ferrariism, you know.

Indeed.

Yes.

Maybe AC Milan, I don't know.

But, you know, they're definitely they're huge and so important to that country.

And so it's not like any other team.

But it's a point of discussion that people will be like,

well, how's the weather today?

Oh, it's not good.

How's the government?

Yes.

Maybe they said, how's Ferrari?

You know, that is the conversation in Italy's.

Yeah.

You know, it has.

I know, it always has done.

Always has done that way.

It's always been that way.

It's great that it still has that draw, that pull.

Because people around the world love Ferrari and see them on a racetrack.

But it's been, what, 2007?

I think, was it Kimmy?

Winning the World Championship?

That was the last time.

Yes, shocking.

The last time.

Yeah, long, long time.

Scary.

Scary, scary, scary.

And I'm not even really.

It was a bit of, they were close sort of a little bit with Sebastian and Fernando.

And then it sort of did its normal decline and it's just never really bounce back.

I've had a couple of showings of good speed over the years,

but it's never really been complete enough.

And it's, and I don't know why.

It's like Fred, so I like Fred.

I think Fred is a very, very smart man, smart businessman.

He's always been very successful in his racing businesses that he's had.

But this one is such a tough nut to crack.

And the biggest thing I always think is difficult for Ferrari is how you draw

the very, very best people to Italy.

You know, there was always talk about Adrian and that just wasn't for him

and it never worked out.

So that just, again, it's a sign.

No.

Less brawl.

Yeah, that was a slightly different.

Yeah.

And of course, Nikki Louder here.

We have Nikki as well who was able to talk directly to Enzo.

Yes.

And say exactly what he thought.

Yeah.

And do you know the story about, I think it was,

I can't remember who it was.

He was a Puccini or something like that.

Not Puccini, Puccini, Puccinini, Puccinini.

Anyway, one of the Ferrari people were translating between Enzo and Nikki

when he first went there and first drove for Ferrari.

And Nikki, in his pithy way, said,

the car is, can I say the word?

The car is shit.

Anyway, the car is shit.

And so the guy now has the job of translating to Enzo.

Just give that the feedback.

And he goes and tells Enzo.

And then Enzo tells him a question for Nikki.

So he goes back to Nikki and he says,

little commendatory, he's asking,

how is shit?

Which is the story I heard.

Very good.

Very cool slide.

In other words, it's no good.

You need to be a little bit more detailed in your analysis and that.

But of course, he famously worked with Enzo and managed to...

Well, how cool was Nikki?

But Lewis was doing all this,

making all these noises about having discussions

and he's trying to...

I got the impression that Lewis was in there with the management

sort of saying, this is not working the way it needs to work.

These things can be improved.

So to have gone to the effort to try and make the right changes

or get things moving in the right direction

and change maybe the culture coming from Mercedes

with his insights there.

And now going to Ferrari and saying,

one or two things could be better.

To now be told, they need to shut up.

It's a little harsh, perhaps.

I think it's very harsh.

And with the experience that maybe Lewis,

because Lewis is the one who's won the world championships

with Mercedes and with McLaren.

He knows how those teams work

and they work in a very, very methodical way.

And there's always this.

And it's horrible because there's always this situation at Ferrari.

Just nothing seems to go to the puzzles

or the pieces are all there.

They're never from the same box.

Have you ever been to Maranello?

Yes.

Yeah.

And you realize that, I mean, Fiorano as well.

You know, you realize the whole thing.

Yeah.

Sure.

There's so many people's lives depend on this thing.

No, sure.

Well, the car, if you do the car company,

the car company survives brilliantly.

It still has that wonderful, as I said,

passion around the world.

That's still work.

It's the racing part

that has sort of had good times and bad times

and in more recent times,

it's been more bad times

and it's just never been able to click.

But I think that goes back to my original comment

of where it's trying to attract the best,

the very, very best.

And it hasn't attracted even the best of those.

I think a lot of people look at it as,

you know, a scans a little bit.

You know, if you get offered an opportunity for Ferrari,

of course, it's very tempting to go,

yeah, I want to go and do that.

But you have to think carefully

because it's very complicated.

I want to throw this one at you.

Would you have ever driven for a Ferrari

in your time, this one?

Would it have been a choice or your want?

I can imagine there might be a situation.

I mean, I had a, basically, a fundamental rule

which was I want to be in the best car,

you know, with the best chance of success.

Same as me.

So, you know, if it had been one of the best cars

that I...

So that's a no then.

Well, I turned them down.

Okay.

There you go.

Okay.

Well, but anyway,

that's because I needed a drive

and Jean Todd said,

come and have a word and we'll talk about it loosely.

Yeah.

And so I did go and to Italy

and I met him at a house.

I don't think it was his house where he worked from.

Yeah.

And he said,

you know, you'd have to be number two to Michael.

Okay.

Which of course was...

Yeah, so that was,

that went down really well, I guess, for you.

Yeah.

That was, that was reasons for turning down.

It's very generous.

No.

Really.

Girl, what a shocker.

Is that an offer you...

Is that...

It's not an offer you can't refuse, is it?

That one.

It's an offer you have to refuse.

Oh, Nigel, dude.

Nigel went there when he was number two to Alan.

I mean, maybe I should have done it.

Maybe I should have just gone.

Now, are you making me regret?

No, it's a decision.

Anyway, it doesn't matter because...

I didn't analyze it.

Someone asked Jean Todd that a years ago

and he denied I ever went and spoke with him.

So he...

Basically, I must have dreamt it.

Oh, well, that would be very, yeah.

That would not be a surprise of Jean.

Not to say that.

So anyway, yeah, so big, big, big sort of little issues

at Ferrari itself.

But the drivers, well, I think the drivers

will just carry on doing what they're doing.

They can be critical because I have to be critical

and that's the only way you move things forward.

I think...

Oh, is Charles getting married?

Did I see?

On a social level.

I think he's announced an engagement or something.

Oh, there you go.

Maybe I'll find this stuff.

But this is a bit like the Beatles, isn't it?

In fact, the Beatles, when they said they were getting married,

everyone, all the girls are going, oh, no.

And so anyway, he's big, you know,

he's obviously looking ahead to his future now.

So...

Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with that at all.

If that makes him happier and even more complete,

that only makes him better.

Right, then.

What else have we got?

Wait, let's do something slightly different.

Questions.

I'm going to have some questions that have been thrown our way

and we're going to do our very best to answer them, honestly.

Well, which we couldn't have done the questions for our first show

because no one had heard us.

Very, very true.

And hopefully there are a couple more on board this time around.

So, yeah, first question is...

Yes.

All of these questions were submitted by the Race Members Club on Patreon.

So just a quick plug before we go into them.

If you'd like to join the Race Members Club on Patreon

and enjoy ad-free listening and loads of bonus podcasts

and other stuff besides,

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First question.

And this one comes from Rachel Hillman.

What is your favorite overtake of your careers?

I mean, in case you're wondering,

what I want to say,

that is the disembodied voice of Johnny Reynolds,

who is the producer of the show.

Yeah.

So, you can't see him, but there he is.

And so, yeah, nicely read out.

So the best overtakes.

Johnny, you go first.

No, no, no, I want you to go first

because mine's really, really, really good.

But yours is probably quite good.

It's not as quite so.

Go on, overtake.

Your best overtake.

Go on.

Your best overtake.

All right, I've got two.

I've got two, right?

Two.

Can I do two?

Yes, go ahead.

So, it's not very significant,

but it was brilliant.

It was an overtake.

I overtook Heinz-Harald Frenson.

I took a massive lunge going into the chicane

on the last lap.

I think it was at Suzuka.

In 1998, end of 1998.

He was coming to the team the following year.

And he just, you know that, you know,

there's a weird kind of twist to that entry.

It's not straight.

It's got a little bumpy.

And there's a little bit more room on the inside.

And you realize, anyway, I was coming at him

and I got a good toe off of 130R.

And I'm coming at him.

And I thought I was a long way back.

And I thought, oh, fuck it.

So, no, I can't see that.

Go on, Kari, you said it.

Excuse me, viewers.

It's so after.

That was a technical term.

So I just went, I've got this.

I've got this, right?

So I just really late and I just slithered

and I just saw him start to come

and I got through in true official style.

I had my wheels well past his mirror.

Not that we, not that we had that.

All locked up.

And I just really deep dive and I slipped.

And it actually got picked up by one of the journalists.

He said, that move you did on Frenson

was awesome.

So that bit was a brilliant deep, late, late breaker.

What position were we going for?

Oh, ninth or something.

One of those good lines, okay.

It was a world-shakingly important result.

Okay.

Anyway, life change.

Second one, second one.

Hope is better.

It's fantastic.

It was brilliant.

I overtook Michael Schumacher

going to turn one in Hungary.

Oh, yes.

And he was in a Ferrari.

Yes, yeah, that I do.

Yeah, okay.

That was good move.

No, that's not bad.

Yeah, happy with that one.

It was a sitting duck, by the way.

Exacto.

Did you win that one as well?

Well, I nearly did.

I know, I know you did.

Second wasn't bad, but it was a good run.

But anyway, the whole point was,

yeah, he had everything to lose

and I had nothing to lose,

one of those good ones.

Yeah, yeah.

Come on then.

Like that once here.

Well, mine's Silverstone.

And it's Silverstone.

So we go through the old bridge corner

through the left and then into Brooklands.

That little short shoot.

And it was one of those.

I know that one.

Yeah.

And I, as I went through,

I can't remember what the left is called.

What's the first left before Brooklands?

Lafield or something like that.

No, Lafield was later, wasn't it?

I forgot what it's called.

It's terrible, terrible.

Anyway, the left, first left hander.

Prop, is it pro?

It could be pro.

Anyway, yes.

It's the left hander before Brooklands.

And I made this fantastic dive

quite tight going into Brookland itself.

And I overtook Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher

going into that corner.

It was, he meant,

you were in the gravel at that time.

Yeah, see, I was still running there.

It does.

It was an overtake.

You still had your helmet on.

You were still in the car.

It was really, it was fantastic.

Yeah.

Do you know what it was?

Why, why it happened?

Mine games.

Put pressure on the drivers ahead.

Oh, you did me up like a kipper.

Yeah, that's been very much.

That's, that's other than that.

I don't trust you anymore.

No, no, the only,

the only one I suppose I can remember

was in Adelaide 91

when it was absolutely tipping it down.

Right.

And Mica Hackenham was my, my teammate.

And I made a good move on Mica

through the first game, the right hander.

And I went round the outside of him.

Yeah.

Round there.

And I was lapping him.

So I was like, yeah, I'll take that one.

Lapa.

And that's about it.

Because I've, I've got more stories

about being overtaken

than I have been overtaking.

No, that's not true.

No, you're, you're a, you're a fan.

Grand Prix winning.

Yeah.

I think that's good.

Yeah.

But the Michael one in the arrows especially.

Yes.

You were robbed that day.

Robbed.

The one.

But anyway, the overtake.

I hope we get to answer that question.

Because we've gone off at the night.

Typically we have not stayed on track.

In fact, Johnny's given a story of an overtake

where no, where the person overtook.

No one on track.

No one on the track.

No, exactly.

I know.

It doesn't matter.

He says stay on track.

Yeah.

Here.

No, that's what you should have done.

I think that our listeners

meant mint on track overtake.

So I'm just allowing that.

Okay.

So the next question comes from Adam B.

Would you rather be racing in today's cars slash era

or are you glad you raced when you did?

So the question.

Yeah.

So basically racing in today's car.

I don't want to race these cars.

No, I don't.

Yeah.

I like the, the brutal,

brutalness of the era that we raced in.

No power steering.

Damn, damn tough things to, to drive.

So there was a big physical element to it.

The mental side I think was good as well.

It was more basic and probably the best thing I liked in the, in that era.

We had to work out what was going on underneath us.

Yeah.

He had to work out how the tire was responding.

We had to respond to how the tire was in a good way or a bad way.

And I, I had fun actually trying to work all that out,

especially in a race, a race situation.

I'd hate it being told what to do as they are nowadays

and sometimes the pace that they actually race is very, very low

because that's better for the strategy,

but rather the driver work out what he needs to do.

And because of that,

I think I'd still prefer prefer the era that I was in.

These cars are mighty.

They are so quick,

visually, they are unbelievably fast,

but I'm just not so sure.

I'd rather the drivers and the engineers do everything they want to do on a Friday

they want to do on a Saturday and on Sunday they go.

That's the best we have been able to produce over to you guys for Sunday.

Yeah.

I'm 100% in agreement with you there.

I think I was very happy to have driven when I did.

I don't think I would have wanted to drive much earlier than that.

Although I do, I still think the ground effect cars,

although they were incredibly dangerous.

They look like they were quite fun to race

because I actually drove one of the early Williamses round Saudi,

the Saudi track with the skirts on.

But they had skirts.

He did.

He did have a full skirt.

No, but it was, you know,

the DLDF is quite a nice little motor,

but the V10 Renault engine I had was absolutely brilliant.

And so, and also as you said,

it's simple and I thought that I had something to give

in terms of how I understood setup

and what I wanted to do with the car

in order to make to get the best out of the tires and so forth.

And those are my little skillsets.

Those are my special little toolbox I had.

Yeah.

We were the computer.

Given the information to the engineers and the designers,

they had to listen to us, didn't they?

Yeah.

That's how I was leaving.

To make it far better.

When, by 99, my last year, everyone,

it was starting to come in where the engineer started to say,

you know, we need, we're going to set up the car

according to what we see on the data.

And I remember thinking to myself,

but what do I do, you know?

Because I thought, well, that's the end of that then.

And that was a fun part.

And now, wasn't it as well?

Yeah, but it'd be great to get all the information.

But the trouble is, you know,

you have Oscar Piestri in Brazil coming on the radio

and going, what's the plan?

And you can't even know what the, what do you want me to do?

It's not really a question that I want to hear

coming from a racing driver.

No, no.

And that's exactly right.

And that's not Chris and Oscar.

No, of course.

It's general observation about the sport.

I know, but I get from an engineer's point of view

why they do what they do

because they're trying to almost get perfection.

Do you remember?

Unfortunately, perfection is not always a good thing for racing,

but I still want the driver to be,

have the driver element being more at the fore.

The thing is, there's so much invested,

you know, millions, millions of pounds every year

spent the teams, the investment.

So the teams always see it from the point of view

that we cannot afford to be taking any chances.

Of course, they want everything covered,

but that does make it difficult to extract anything else.

I mean, I think the comment that came from Kimi Raikkon

famously where he said, leave me alone, I know what I'm doing,

got such a massive round of applause.

And because people want to think that the driver

should be applauded for his work.

It's the wow factor.

The driver showing us, wow, I couldn't do that.

Wow, that was unbelievable.

Yes.

It's still there, but it's reduced by the amount of work

that is done from outside.

So I'm happy.

They aren't into the question.

Long-winded.

And also, it's far too complicated for me as well

than I would be spending most of the time confused.

Well, you wouldn't have to be,

because I just tell you what to do.

Oh, okay.

So you don't have to think about it.

I like it like that.

There you go.

Maybe I'll be alright.

Shall we take one more question?

Let's have one more.

One more, one more, one more.

This one is from Darryl Finch

and it's primarily targeted towards you, Johnny.

I'm interested to hear what the answer is to this.

Sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseam in the past,

but Johnny, the Fernando Alonso incident.

From the perspective of a journalist slash broadcaster

and someone trying to be professional,

how difficult is it to have someone accost you like that

on live TV?

And a slight follow up question and Damon,

have you ever incurred the wrath of any former drivers

or other F1 personnel as part of your broadcasting career?

Yes.

So were you going to ask me that the last bit first?

So, okay.

No, I've never had that, Johnny.

Only you've had it.

Only you have been lost by a former driver.

A world champion.

When I was racing, I had Renny Arnoux came up to me

because I crashed into one of his drivers.

I didn't crash into him.

Anyway, I did something and he'd been managing a driver

in 3000.

He came up to me and he said,

you're the worst driver I've ever seen in my life.

But I thought from Renny Arnoux coming from him,

I thought that was quite...

I thought that was quite a big compliment.

Yeah, he's a good guy.

But that was on that particular comment,

but he's a very good driver.

But I was not on TV so that specifically

this is asked about live TV.

Yes.

No.

Well, it's like anything.

I was there to do a job.

I was there to be...

Do we need to tell this?

People who aren't familiar with what we're talking about.

Yes, I think that's probably the problem.

He's just way of doing it.

And it was basically,

it started a member in Japan

and it was when it was the GP2 engine

and he was sort of giving it real big

slagging off over the radio.

Yes.

Especially that it was in Japan

as well, home of the Honda

when Honda was struggling in the McLaren.

And I think after the race,

I was saying he's very toxic

and he always has been with the teams

that has been toxic.

Weaves, weaves.

Yeah, well, he is.

And I totally have a lot of respect

for what he does on the racetrack.

You know, he's awesome what he does.

He should have had more world championships

than he's got.

Yeah.

You're like...

And through...

Yeah, well, through...

Good, I hope so, yes.

Through probably decisions that he's made

that he's gone just to the wrong place

at the wrong time.

That sort of happens in life.

But he's still driving brilliantly today.

He's still got that way of doing it.

So anyway, so yes.

So then Bahrain, I think it was.

And it was still sort of going on.

I think I mentioned that toxic work once again.

And he was obviously watching it

in the hospitality unit.

Oh, God, would be the last...

So then he came out and I was with Rachel.

And Rachel was talking.

He's coming, he's coming.

I can see Fernando coming.

So this is live.

Rachel Brooksman.

Yeah, Rachel Brooksman's guy.

So he comes over and he just comes straight in

and I shook his hand.

And then he basically sort of said,

you know, you don't really know what you're talking about

because you were a never world champion.

And then he basically just walked off.

Well, he was right about not being a world champion.

He got that bit absolutely spot on.

Yes.

But you didn't have a right to an opinion anyway.

So it was a bit of a...

But he did it live on...

He did it live, live on there.

And that's the great thing about live TV.

Yes.

Because that's now being recorded for all time.

Exactly.

It's TV gold.

Yeah.

And I get it, you know,

I get that when he's someone,

he's having a little bit of a dig at you

because of what's happening

within your environment that he is in.

And being that we both know

when there are good times in a team

and there were bad times in a team,

but he was very vocal about the team

and slagging the team off effectively.

So I just thought,

no, that's not right.

There's a time and a place for doing that.

It's not over the radio.

You do it when you're with your engineers

or back at the factory

because when you're doing it over the radio,

there's a lot of young ladies and young men

back at the factory working very, very hard

to try and make that...

And you're...

...go as quick as possible.

You're there, can't...

Well, again,

I just don't think it's the right thing to do.

And I understand why he came up to me.

In the way that he did.

Do I regret saying what I said?

No, I don't.

I still feel, you know,

exactly the same now

because I do respect what he does on the racetrack as well.

I wasn't expecting me.

What he'd say now,

but he made...

Do you think that he's actually carried on,

extended his career just to spite you?

In other words, he's not giving up.

He's done it really poorly

because it really hasn't affected me one way or the other,

to be verbally honest.

Men, he's had to keep going.

Will he's never allowed to keep going?

Because otherwise you'd be right.

Yeah, and I did see him at Silverstone a couple of years ago

and that was when I was a steward, strangely enough,

in Australia.

Remember when the last lap with George,

George sort of rolled over on the last lap

when I was the steward and the stewards,

the four of us decided that he got a penalty

and he was not very happy about that.

And I saw him at Silverstone that year

and I hadn't seen him since then.

So I thought, and I was outside Sauerberg.

He was just next door with a couple of friends.

I thought, oh, well, I'll just say hi.

So I went and sucked my arm out

and he just completely backed me, turned away.

And then all he said to me,

never ever looked me in the eye and he says,

you don't have to worry.

I'm not going to be here much longer.

He lied.

He lied to me because he's still there.

And like you said,

he's still trying to get under my skin.

So yeah, it's one of those difficult situations

that it's awkward between us,

which is very unfortunate.

I just said I don't have any malice towards him in any way.

But he never forgets certain instances.

It's not just what's happening with me.

There's a lot of other instances that have happened

that he hangs on to a lot of things that way.

I just want to thank Darryl

for asking that question

because I've been watching you squirm.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

I'm not squirming!

You're squirming!

Oh, blimey.

You're not squirming, one way or the other.

I think it was Jolly Unfair,

and anyway, but it was TV call.

On who?

Yeah, on who?

It was unfair on you, just for it.

But anyway, it was quite...

I mean, you did upset him by saying something.

I did upset him.

But then you've got to say something.

I mean, I probably...

No creo, bueno, supongo que estoy criticado, Max, por algo.

Creo que nunca que él venía y le diera a mí.

No, no, no, no, no.

No, no, no, no, es muy diferente.

No creo que probablemente lo haga.

No, es muy diferente.

No, no sabemos lo que estamos hablando de, Johnny.

Y eso es lo que más la gente piensa.

Sí, lo hacemos.

Estamos siempre correctos.

No.

Bien.

¿Y más?

O lo hicimos?

No.

Ok, bueno, yo creo que eso es lo mejor.

Entonces, bueno, eso fue divertido.

Me gustó eso de nuevo.

No podemos ir por todo esto.

O sea, estamos tratando de estar en el trato,

pero ahora vamos a la tangente.

Pero fue genial.

Buena discusión, Johnny.

Sí, sí, sí, sí, sí.

No creo que sea bueno.

Normalmente,

siempre parece que nos da

algo para hablar de eso.

Es genial.

Tenemos más que venir, ¿no?

Sí.

Porque cuando nos vuelve a ti,

será después de todo.

Sí.

Wow.

Realmente no sé.

No sé.

No, no lo sé.

Y eso es lo bueno.

Así que creo que vamos a tener una buena discusión

en el final de la campanita aquí.

Veamos donde estamos.

Y recuerda,

para darle like y suscribirse

a cualquier plataforma

que estés escuchando o mirando.

La athleticidad.

El mejor podcast del mundo.

Aquí es el show que nos recomendamos.

La leadership used to mean

tener todas las respuestas,

pero hoy, los mejores líderes

embodian un más humo.

Soy Jack Meyers.

Y soy Tim Spangler.

Tim y yo exprimimos nuestras carreras

dentro de la media,

marketing y cultura.

Y paramos con la

A-Cast Creator Network

para empezar a ser humo,

para responder una simple pregunta.

¿Qué realmente parece

hacer en este mundo dominario?

La mayor tip para ser un creador

es un trabajo.

Lo que he aprendido de Michael Jackson

es que aquí es un hombre

que comprende la precisión.

Es sobre responder las preguntas

que son difíciles,

no sobre responder

un montón de preguntas de T-Dop

que son falsas.

Lo que estamos buscando

son historias reales

y consejos prácticos

que puedes usar con tus equipos

de la misma manera.

Suscríbete a LeadHuman

con Jack Meyers

y Tim Spangler

en cualquier lugar

que tengas tu podcast.

Lando's title push, tearing up the racing rulebook, and Ferrari's 'talk less' turmoil

About this episode

Original notes