Montana Plate Crackdown, Porsche GT Price Manipulation & Tesla’s Cybercab
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73:43
Car
911 Porsche Gt
The Porsche 911 is a sports car model from Porsche that’s very popular. In the episode, they talk about a situation involving buyers and the high-performance “GT” versions. The point is about how buying these cars can sometimes involve problems like scams.
Car
Lotus Elise
The Lotus Elise is a small two-seat sports car built to feel quick and nimble. People talk about it because it’s light and made for driving enjoyment. In the episode, it’s mentioned while comparing it to other fast, track-style cars.
Term
flat six
A flat-six is a type of engine shape where the cylinders are laid out flat. People like it because it helps the car feel balanced and gives a distinctive driving feel.
Term
cars and coffees
“Cars and coffees” are casual meetups where enthusiasts gather to show cars, talk, and socialize—often on weekend mornings. The speaker contrasts this lifestyle use with track-day use to decide between the Lotus and the Porsche.
Term
weight distribution
Weight distribution is how the car’s weight is split front-to-rear. It affects how the car turns and sticks to the road, and they’re saying the Lotus feels more balanced.
Term
sticker kit
“Sticker kit” is a colloquial way to say a car has the appearance of a performance model without the full underlying hardware changes. In this context, it’s used to contrast an RS America look with a “real RS” that’s more genuinely track-prepped.
Term
hydraulically assisted
This means the steering gets help from a hydraulic system. It makes turning easier, but it can feel a bit less direct than steering without assist.
Company
Callaway
Callaway is an aftermarket performance company best known for tuning and upgrading Corvettes and other GM-based platforms. When the host says they had conversations with a “Corvette specialist” from Callaway, they’re likely referring to factory-style performance packages, calibration work, and hardware upgrades.
Term
drip of oil
A “drip of oil” means the car is leaking oil. Even if it’s not catastrophic, it usually needs attention because low oil can damage the engine.
Term
V 12
A V12 is an engine with 12 cylinders arranged in two banks. It usually sounds really special—often deeper and more dramatic than smaller engines.
Concept
sim racing
Sim racing is using racing simulation software/hardware to practice driving techniques or enjoy motorsport virtually. It’s become common even among real car enthusiasts because it can help with learning tracks, braking points, and car control concepts.
Company
Tesla
Tesla is the company behind this self-driving taxi idea. The host says Tesla’s app and software would run the service.
Concept
Uber
Uber is a rideshare platform used as a comparison point for robotaxis. The segment frames autonomous taxis as the next step beyond traditional app-based rides, especially for safety and convenience.
Car
Model X
The Tesla Model X is an all-electric SUV. The speaker is saying Tesla stopped making it so the factories could focus on robots and robot cars.
Term
Optimus
Optimus is Tesla’s humanoid robot project—basically a robot with a human-like body. The speaker is saying Tesla wants to build these robots in the same factories, which affects what cars get made.
Car
Ferrari 296
The Ferrari 296 is a current-generation Ferrari sports car. The speaker is bringing it up because there’s a story about the warranty coverage for it.
Term
solid state batteries
Solid state batteries are a newer type of battery that uses a solid material instead of the usual liquid inside. People expect them to be safer and possibly store more energy. In this segment, they’re speculating about when they’ll replace today’s lithium batteries.
Brand
McLaren
McLaren is a company that makes high-end supercars. In this conversation, it’s part of the comparison about how these cars hold value and what ownership costs look like.
Brand
Lamborghini
Lamborghini is a famous Italian company that makes supercars. People talk about it because owning one can be expensive, but the cars are also very desirable.
Term
horsepower
Horsepower is a number that tells you how much power the engine makes. More horsepower usually means stronger acceleration, but it’s not the only thing that matters.
Concept
mobility loss
They’re saying that as people get older, it can become hard to get around. If they can’t drive, it affects their independence, so ride solutions can help.
Brand
Stellantis
Stellantis is a big company that owns multiple car brands. So when someone says “Stellantis owns that brand,” it means that brand is part of Stellantis’ group.
Company
Hagerty
Hagerty is an insurance company that specializes in collector cars. They often want to know where the car is kept so they can price the policy correctly.
Concept
registration rules
Different states have different rules for registering cars. Those rules can change what paperwork you need and what you pay.
Concept
cracking down on Montana plates
“Cracking down” refers to increased enforcement against vehicles using Montana plates while being driven in other states. The practical implication is a higher chance of being stopped and cited if officers believe the registration strategy is improper.
Concept
pumping them out like candy
“Pumping them out like candy” is a metaphor for high production volume. In collector-car markets, higher production usually reduces scarcity, but the episode argues that even with more GT3s available now, prices still rose—suggesting demand outpaced supply.
Concept
perfect storm
They mean several things are happening at the same time that make prices rise. In their view, people are buying enthusiast cars now because the future of cars might be very different.
Concept
cars are a commodity
They’re saying cars are like other products: if lots of them exist, prices usually drop. If fewer exist, prices tend to stay higher.
Concept
hold their values
They mean the car should keep its resale price instead of dropping a lot. Rare and highly desired cars usually do better.
Concept
status symbols
They mean cars people buy mainly to show off. If that’s the reason, then when the hype moves to something else, the market can cool and prices can change.
LIVE
We have had to completely scrap the agenda that we had for full throttle talk this week because we have had some breaking news stories and frankly some really interesting emails from all of you guys and questions and messaging us over on Instagram.
That we've decided to focus on two topics which seem to be on everyone's mind so after we get past our first two segments which is what did you do in cars with this week in automotive news and I've got some great automotive news for you guys I know you guys do too.
We are going to demystify the topic that seems to be on everyone the two topics that seems to be on everyone's mind the Montana plate crackdown is it true or is this hype we're going to talk about that we all did a lot of research on that to get cut through the you know the click baby headlines and the fourth
segment is and this is inspired by the guy who is the president of the PCA for Ohio I think I'll pull up his email in a second very very nice gentleman and it is the Porsche actually he's the one that inspired the Montana crackdown story but the fourth segment is is the Porsche GT market fake our buyers being scammed and that's something that I will again spent a lot of time researching for all of you guys and hopefully you appreciate the information that we're going to share with you and this is another one of those stories that everyone's talking about now.
But we've done our best to cut through it so you guys have actually what's happening such a new and Blair you guys ready to get rumbling absolutely you should be here should we skip all the formalities and say yes GT three customers are being scammed just kidding.
Welcome to full throttle talk the podcast where force power meets conversation from supercars to classic legends high revving tech to motorsport mayhem we covered all straight from the driver's seat whether you're a gearhead eraser or just love the thrill of the open road you're in the right place buckle up hit the gas and let's go full throttle into today's episode we'll get to that yeah there's a sucker born every minute.
And I want one so before people beat the crap out of me I want one too so well so let's get to the first segment we go through the July totally quick because I know we all have a lot of thoughts on those two primary topics so what do you guys do in cars this week.
Well maybe I'll start I've got on the picture behind me we teed this up at the end of the podcast last week my friend with the 964 RS came over and drove the Lotus Elise 111 RS so it was an RS frenzy in my garage last week.
I love those those speedline wheels man those are the best.
Yeah these there's I've driven multiple versions of the RS meaning two different cars guys I know that have them and they are fantastic to drive so really quick just the highlights for me differentiating the two of these cars I drove my car and then this back to back.
My first impression when I get in this 964 number one is you just get engine I mean this is a great little motor in the Lotus but there's nothing like a flat six and my buddy's got this thing really sounding great I think fister full exhaust on it.
There's no there is no replacement for displacement frankly and you you notice that when you drive this car number two is yes it it feels taller for sure than the Lotus that's not hard to understand.
It also feels very like on its tippy toes compared to the Lotus which is very much down in the ground hardcore like track focus race car vibes when you're driving that thing and you know and then you get with not with all 911's just that ergonomic weight transfer you feel it being even further back.
So very different in that regard the 964 even though it's a very aggressive car and the lineage of 911's is aggressive it's got that seam welded chassis which is why I think of this car when I when I drive this 111 RS.
They both have that really tight screwed together feeling which which is really interesting and fun.
If prices were the same what would you if prices were the same which they're clearly not what would you choose I mean as objectively as you can answer that.
Well I think it comes down to use case and I just booked my first track day in the Lotus which I'm really excited about it's next Friday.
So if I want to do that which I do want to do that I want the Lotus because that feels like a track car the 964 doesn't to me.
If I want to cruise more if I want to just you know do a lot of cars and coffees that sort of thing.
964 is really special but if you want race car aggressive hardcore stuff it's it's not really close frankly the Lotus is a lot more up that alley.
That's interesting what do you think about that.
What do you think about Shannou being the creator of the 111 RS that he's trumpeting about.
Well look you know I've owned 9 11's you know and so I've tracked them I've driven across country you know like with with these type of cars and so he's spot on.
I mean the Lotus is just more of a pure driver's car and it's going to give you that feedback that you're looking for on the track.
Midogen is better in a weight distribution look the 9 11 is fighting you know basically a flawed architecture.
Okay so you got to do all sorts of monkey business to get the car to handle properly and you're always going to be fighting that and if you are not comfortable with a car that's inherently loose underneath you.
Well you know it's going to feel a little bit scary driving a 9 11 on track and so or aggressively in the canyons but I mean I like that.
I mean it's one reason why I like Ariel Adams because they behave the same way.
You know that RS the 9 64 RS to me is the best iteration.
Well I like the 9 64 turbo to you know frankly I think the standard C twos are pretty vanilla.
Okay they're just okay I actually test drove those before I bought the 993 thinking that I would get that I couldn't find at the time was in the 90s I couldn't find a clean RS America which was more of a sticker kit than the one that you drove Blair which is a real RS.
I certainly you know that's that car is still I think from a Porsche perspective in that era in particular was the best overall drivers version.
No I agree.
Yeah have you driven a 9 64 RS Tim you know I'm embarrassed to say I haven't.
They're rare I mean how would you like it's they're rare to find.
Well you know they're actually not that rare they made a crap ton of those cars.
You don't find them in the U.S.
No that's true.
Yeah that's true.
But you know I am curious to drive one but I appreciate your feedback.
That's reason I was especially interested in what you had to say because I suspect what you were experiencing is the Lotus was made from the basis of what would be ultimately more of a true sports car.
Dare I say versus the 9 64 RS was made primarily to be a night you know a road going GT type car and then they had to sort of you know.
Decontent it and I had a 90 90 actually C2 Targa a white one which I ended up resealing the motor and doing a bunch of work to and they did a little you know lightweight performance modifications and I sold it.
I thought it was I thought the steering was over boosted.
I didn't think it had enough power.
It was just wasn't that impressed with it to be honest.
Well it's interesting because the 9 64 RS has manual steering unlike the regular car which is is a hydraulically assisted.
But that is another key difference in these cars is there is a lot more play in the steering in the 9 64.
I mean it's lovely.
It feels great.
These are two of my very favorite drivers cars I've ever been in.
But there's a precision about that Lotus that is undeniable and almost unmatched.
Think old school analog small aggressive with kind of new GT three levels of precision in the front end in the steering and that's kind of what you got.
But I love both these cars really fun to drive them back to back and I'd have them both if I could.
Well you might be able to.
We'll see right.
It's syndicated.
So what would you do in cars this week.
So if you can see my background I'm becoming a Corvette person.
Let's go.
I don't have the wardrobe yet.
I don't have the wardrobe and frankly I don't have the car either.
But we had some interesting conversations with Callaway kind of Corvette specialist.
And so they've got a West Coast operation here in town.
So had some good interesting meetings with those guys.
And so there's some fun stuff happening there.
I didn't show you guys.
No no no no no no we're not doing that.
I had some fun conversations with Callaway and now we're going to go back.
Oh by the way someone did give us some good feedback that we need to if they're listening only we need to talk about the images that are behind us.
That's a great point.
Actually can you which one of you wants to be assigned the responsibility of doing that.
I will do it if you want me to but we need to let the listeners only you know they aren't seeing us what what our imagery is.
You want to have a little better.
Yeah Blair you want that job.
Yeah sure.
Behind you is a bunch of great looking older dudes with beautiful like defined sculpted thighs.
I got short jean shorts on also known as Jorts and some C4 Corvette.
So there you go.
Well anyways yeah so you know look I think you know the C8 Corvette is certainly one that you guys know I you know the Z06 in particular.
I bought actually a Stan 21 driving suit.
I needed to replace the one that I've had for about 10 years and they had one that had some Corvette stuff on it that fit me and they had it for a thousand dollars off.
So I'm like hmm this is a couple of weeks ago and I didn't tell you guys this.
I bought it.
So anyways I'm slowly but surely becoming a Corvette person so when that Z06 finally makes its way into my garage I'll be ready.
I'll be prepared so yeah no that's kind of this last week of car stuff for me.
There's a whole ton of stuff we've been working on in the shop obviously you know had the 996RR out for for a run out to Palm Springs where it was like 103 degrees.
We know we've got summer weather here right now and so it was good to kind of run that car through the canyons you know up and over the mountains from Temecula to Palm Springs.
We got a great road twisty fun fun road and had a chance to really kind of shake that car out find a few little buzzes and rattles and things that it's making that we need to kind of sort out but yeah that's that's really what my last week has been.
Two thoughts Blair your your friend who owns that beautiful 964RS behind you and he drove the Lotus I didn't ask did he have a preference.
I think it's tomato tomato the funny thing is the guy his car dropped a drip of oil shortly after you know we did this and he said you know what maybe I just need to be done with this old Porsche stuff and have she knew build me a car.
That's a true story so he didn't reach out he didn't reach out so thank you Blair awesome yeah he did he did so that was cool so he's like I gotta I gotta make some space in the garage and I said cool.
If you set aside ego we're just being honest here and like you set aside that I don't know there's a definitely a group of people out there that are claimed to be car enthusiasts or maybe they are car enthusiasts but they're definitely buying for the sake of you know how the car looks versus how it drives primarily there's
I would say 90% of the car buying public they're buying it as a fashion accessory to express themselves which is fine I'm not judging but when you get into these weird cars like a Lotus.
You know you're not buying it because you're trying to impress anybody you're buying because you truly enjoy driving something.
And there is definitely a point in everyone's lives where they've had enough of those other cars there's only so many it's only so much coffee you can drink at cars and coffee.
And then you feel like you've done it you know and then you say well what am I really into this for it and then you start some not all people start me and you're into the real true sports cars into things and I think that's who a lot of our listeners are honestly.
Well, I have to say this so like I said I know two guys with nine six four s's the first one is whose car I drove and he already reached out to Shenu.
If that tells you what you need to know.
The second one his brother owns the car behind me with the speed line wheels on it and I've driven that one as well.
He he's driven everything they're talking VIP Porsches zoned revenge they do all the special wishes cars that he's driven literally every modern and most the older Porsches you can drive.
I took the the lease over to his house the other night.
He drove it.
We had his wife his kids they were all outside.
And he said to his wife.
I'm not kidding.
Said honey that is very possibly my favorite car I have ever driven that Lotus his mind was blown.
And he reminded him of having a 914 when he was older and he's like just the size that you know I've already talked about what makes that car great but that was a comment from another guy who's driven literally every Porsche under the sun.
And he said that was spectacular.
Well that guy in particular who we won't name drop him that also has a huge ridiculous car collection.
So if you want to talk he's got multiple like really insane cars.
That's a really that's incredible actually saying a lot.
Blair do both of your friends have Ruby stone RSS.
Well one of them has it and then the other his brother has it but he's the one who sourced it for his brother.
So wow.
And the both Ruby stone yes and they're awesome.
So C8 prices just so you know I sent you guys a link to a video a guy did a real good breakdown evidently and I think we didn't maybe mention this on last week's show.
There's a car coming out above the C8 zero one X the Zora the Zora wherever the hell it's going to be called that supposedly can have people are guessing active aerodynamics or who knows what.
And so I'm only mentioning this for the sake of you getting your Z06 the prices will inevitably fall as some of those high end X guys decide to you know sell out and go and then I'll push all the prices down hypothetically.
Who knows I don't think that's necessarily true because what it could do is make the Z06 prices look even way underpriced based on what you're getting.
It could put a floor under the prices especially if the new cars like 350 grand you know but we'll see.
I think you can get you can buy a Z06 at sticker or less now so the prices are going to drop.
It's a Corvette.
I mean you don't buy these things for investment in a grade you know they're they're they're going to they're going to depreciate.
So if you don't like the way the car drives or it looks don't buy it.
Yeah I will say though there's too much going on but Tim you also sent the video of sounds like we know what this new grand sports going to be.
And when I watch that it's like a souped up version of the e-ray.
My first first my first thought about that was with Shenu.
Well we all need to buy a Z06 because that really seems to be the one that's going to be different than all the other ones and frankly probably the best.
So so that's a really good point is you're saying the new grand sport basically is all wheel drive it's 720 horsepower and that's going to leave the Z06 as hybrid.
Yeah the the new the grand the grand sport but the Z06 is the only one that's not.
Yeah there might be two grand sports guys there might be one that doesn't have the hybrid and the other that does and they're calling that the X.
So we may see two more versions really.
That's I hope you're right.
Yeah I grand sports always been like the drivers spec and so I hope you're right.
Well nonetheless your homework from today's show and I know you guys have already done it though if you guys who are listening and watching us if you haven't done it go on YouTube and listen to what a Z06 sounds like a C8 Z06 sounds like with different exhausts on it.
It sounds unfrikin real.
I mean seriously what sounds.
I mean a Gordon a Gordon Murray a Gordon your friend who's got the two Gordon Murray.
We won't mention his names right these V 12 things.
It does sound equally as cool but I can't say to my ear it sounds any better especially when you put a proper exhaust on a Z06 it's insane.
Yeah well look those those 1200 Cosworth Cosworth motors in the Gordon Murray cars are insane the sound is truly F1.
I love the sound of the Z06 but the the T 50s sound pretty crazy.
The only thing what you do.
Yeah what you do ordering parts for the 550 and my builder is finally committed to getting back on building it so we're yeah so the 50.
It's a 54 551 for one tribute we're in the midst of building it all the parts supposedly were there but I guess he still has to get some others.
And yeah I'm still hoping that arrives sometime this summer but we'll see and other than I did a lot of sim racing that's about it.
Oh and spend a lot of time keeping up with all these topics show ideas you guys had for this week show you know because that caused a lot of work.
Oh which leads me to the newsletter pitch right if you guys aren't in the newsletter if you're not reading the articles in the newsletter we do spend a lot of time writing a lot of what seemingly is great content based on the feedback.
So make sure you're reading our newsletter fullthreadletalk.com it's free and you can click the link below or just go to fullthreadletalk.com.
All right moving on because I know we are all anxious to get to segment three and four let's talk about automotive news and I'll go first.
Have you guys studied the whole cybercap thing do you guys know anything about it.
No tell us.
Okay so they're driverless.
100% autonomous cars Department of Transportation just recently changed it so that from the federal level they're 50 state legal.
No pedals no accelerator pedal which you think a car enthusiasts wouldn't give two shits about but you know because you're not really driving you're just riding along in it.
They're only two seaters they're small they look kind of cool that bodies are composite they're engineered to last five to 600,000 miles.
So everyone was assuming that these things were only going to be available for fleet use for your Ubers and your lifts and your others.
Okay but it turns out Elon about three days ago maybe a week ago said that he's going to make these available to individuals to buy.
Now I want you to think about this they're $30,000 and there's a whole bunch of guys that have done really fancy spreadsheets trying to speculate if you bought one you know minimum usage.
You know worst case scenarios.
What's the cash flow look like on owning these things and it's pretty extraordinary and again great videos were accounting types of really drill down on the math.
But you can buy three of these five of these 10 of these things and they if you have 30% utilization they pay for themselves inside six or seven months and that the the profit you can make as you add one every six or seven months is pretty extraordinary.
They're building facilities that are going to service these things and by servicing it's the washing and the vacuuming the whole thing is one of the coolest.
I mean anti enthusiast thing I've ever come across but as far as a business model is pretty amazing but if you think about the ramifications for first of all it's going to remove a lot of bad drivers from the road when.
Second of all, I'm just wondering what that's going to do to how people utilize garage space if you don't need a garage anymore, you know, because you essentially have autonomous cars you can call up at any time.
That's going to change the landscape of most communities.
So that's my topic and I think it's something everyone to have their eyes on because towards the end of the this year Elon saying these things are all going to be for sale.
And you know, frankly when I was reading the story she knew I was thinking about you because you could easily start a cyber cab business in your market and probably make an enormous amount of money by enormous amount of money.
I mean real money one cyber cab with minimum utilization worst case scenarios people barfing it 24 seven kind of scenario right.
It's still nets $24,000 a year. It's crazy.
And just explore it and you won't have to market you won't have to advertise it.
You won't have to find the fairs.
These things will be out using this you know intertwined software from Tesla.
People use the app just like they do for Uber right now.
And there you go and Tesla gets 30% of what the fair is what do you guys think about that.
I think it's brilliant. You know, most people don't want to drive.
Okay, they drive because they have to right.
And so get taking a robot.
I think this is going to be you know, older folks like us are going to be a little bit like us.
Hold on now.
Hold on.
I'm not signing up for that older people like Tim.
Not Blair or nor I, you know, no kidding.
Keep my hat on so you don't see my baldness, but yeah,
young people are not as hung up above these things.
Right. Technology has been a part of their life from day one.
And so they're going to adopt this pretty quickly.
You know, I think people that are just let's just say 50 and older are going to,
they're going to slowly adopt, you know, you know, adapt and adopt.
Right. Or I should say adopt and then adapt because, you know, ultimately it just makes so much sense.
You know, we went to, you know, for this nice little wine tasting thing on Monday night,
you know, in Old Town Temecula, you know, taking a cyber taxi or whatever there and back is the perfect solution.
Right. It's like Uber.
But now you think, you know, like women in particular young girls getting into, you know,
these Ubers with some, you know, driver that you're wondering, hey, you know,
I'm going to get to my place safely.
You know, and so I think the robots are going to be, you know,
the safer and more likely thing for people to get to.
And yeah, look, we're trying to get to zero, you know, traffic fatalities.
And so the only way to get there is going to be with robots.
It's pretty clear.
Well, you honestly nailed it right there.
She knew for me and because predictably I would hate this idea.
And I hate hearing about this stuff and I think it's ridiculous.
But just this past week, I lived just above a four-way stop in our community.
You can see it from, from our front porch.
And it's, we're talking about a neighborhood where people are going 30, 32 miles an hour tops.
These are 25 mile an hour speed limits.
Just this week out in front of my house, these two cars hit so damn hard.
And I don't even know how it's possible at this type of an intersection that the Chevy Traverse hit this Audi Q7 or vice versa.
I didn't see it, but I walked my dog right past it, full on side airbags had deployed.
And I thought, and I came back and said to my kids, you know, a lot of, a lot of people around our community drive golf carts and stuff.
I said, this summer guys, you are never to get on a golf cart because that is about the fourth accident in the last four years.
I've seen at this stupid little intersection, I don't know how people are crashing one.
I don't know how they're hitting each other that hard to deploy airbags too.
So when you bring up safety and automotive, you know, crashes, you might have me on that, especially considering you have a daughter is about to turn 16.
Well, mine's 12 and I agree completely.
I asked Julie, I said, if you had an, and she loves her Alfa Romeo, Julia Quadrifoglio.
And, but I said, if you had one of these autonomous cars, we had access to them.
How many different places would you want to go around Puerto Rico?
Where would, you know, it's like, it's what she knew said, I mean, you can go out and do your wine tasting thing and not worrying about driving drunk.
I mean, that's where his mind was going, you know, it's solely true.
It would, it really, my mom, who, you know, she's 86, she lives with us.
She could go any place she wanted to go and just ordering a car up and then you're off to the races.
So I'm pretty excited about it.
Honestly, I think it's going to create a lot more freedom.
And I mean, my primary business is real estate.
And if all of a sudden people don't need garages, those garages could be made an alternative, alternative dwelling units.
They can make them into rentals.
If people don't have house payment or car payments anymore, you know, that's going to free up all these things, all these unintended consequences come from this.
But just from a business perspective, I thought was kind of fascinating.
It's exciting. I think I love stuff like this.
Yeah.
Yeah, that guy keeps pulling these rabbits out of his hats.
You know, it's, it's, you know, he had announced that he's discontinuing the, the Model S and X.
So this is obviously up his sleeve, you know, to, to launch this in replacement, you know, to fill the manufacturing capacity that he has at those factories.
Well, that's what he's making.
He's making the, the robot.
What is it called?
His robot?
What's it called?
Oculus, not Oculus.
Optimus.
So he's making.
Optimus, yes.
You guys, if you've been following that, I don't want to talk about Elon Musk for hours on end, but.
No, no.
Yeah, there's going to be a robot that he's supposedly a humanoid robot that's for sale at the end of this year and these robot taxis.
And he did stop making Model S's and Model X's because for the exact reasons you said, he needs the manufacturing facility to make robots and make these robot cars.
It's just extraordinary.
And, you know, SpaceX is going public this year at a $1.5 trillion valuation.
If people don't, the whole world is changing so fast.
We're all blessed to be alive at this point.
My favorite thing is to watch the guy who was the savior of the liberal movement, you know, Elon Musk, who then got political and became the anti, you know, the antichrist for these people.
And now suddenly conservative Republicans jump on and love this guy.
I find that whole thing fascinating to watch, frankly.
And I will stay out of all of that.
So, so if you want to, if you want to send your hate messages, it's at Blair, it's hashtag Blair.Smith, not Tim or Cheneau.
To put a bow on that thought, the only thing I have learned really about Elon Musk is I'm going to stop doubting everything the guy says because it's pretty fascinating to watch.
Well, I'll say this too.
So the supposed Tesla Roadster, which he's been promising since, I don't know, the Stone Age is supposedly he said yesterday, the day before he's going to roll that thing out in third or fourth quarter too.
And he said the thing's going to actually have some hovering ability, which I don't know how the hell that would work, but who knows.
Right.
We shall see.
He's always fun to watch, you know, and I hope he has a net positive on our world and not negative, but we'll leave that to the commenters.
He's been pretty bombastic with his claims, but he keeps getting, you know, things done and surprising, you know, all of us.
And so hard to, hard to deny what the guy has achieved.
So let's, Cheneau, did you see the article, the link I sent to you?
It was about something you were talking about.
I sent it to you in the spreadsheet.
But so if you, that's actually an article you wanted to talk about or content you'd sent to us.
And I thought you might want to present that.
It's about the Ferrari thing, I think.
The Ferrari 296 extended warranty thing.
Well, you can catch up.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
So listen, I mean, I just saw that article and I thought I'd send it to you because you've got a 296.
I thought you might shed some light on that whole battery warranty thing.
And it's kind of interesting because they're charging you a yearly, you know, premium to maintain that battery warranty.
So it's beyond that.
It's beyond that.
So the original, and I wrote an article, it's an, and thank you for inspiring that.
And it's in, again, the full throttle talk newsletter.
That's the link I sent you in the spreadsheet, but I really got into the weeds of it.
And the essence of it is up to 16 years of what amounts to close to bumper to bumper warranty.
And within that warranty, they replaced the battery.
I think it's twice or something like that.
Yeah.
Eight years and 16 years, right?
Right.
And how many more, how long before we ditch lithium and start coming out with solid state batteries?
And I can only assume that they're going to make it so these solid state batteries will eventually be able to replace the lithium batteries.
And solid states are a lot lighter and produce a lot more horsepower.
Right.
But what, what was really fascinating to me from your article, or from not your article,
about that link was that Ferrari is, how does the competitors against Ferrari position themselves knowing you can pay $6,000 to $8,000 per year to have an essentially an exotic hypercar basically is what those cars are.
Ensured what amounts to bumper to bumper for 16 years.
How does that?
What is the competition?
What is Lamborghini and McLaren?
They're going to have to do something similar.
I thought that was kind of fascinating.
You're paying a fair amount of money, right?
To keep your warranty intact.
And so what happens, you know, afterwards is the, you know, like my question is like, are the values of these cars going to hold, you know, after 16 years or after, you know, the eight year time period, are they going to plummet?
You know, so kind of interesting because it's a totally different scenario than anyone's used to.
I think it seems like battery life is much better and reliability than most, you know, people thought in a lot of these cars.
So I would be, you know, I would think that 296 batteries going to hold up pretty well.
Me too.
And of all the cars I've ever had of which I've had a lot, the 296 as far as an overall sports car is without it out my favorite one.
It's interesting.
It's extraordinary.
I love the styling.
I love the styling of that car.
Well, it's extraordinarily fast, first of all, faster than I'll ever need it to be.
But the handling of it is just exceptional.
And they're way underpriced right now.
You can get a 2022, you know, GTB for the same price.
Blair and I were talking about this last night for the same price as a freaking GT3, you know, there's no comparison.
A 296 and I don't want to use words that trigger anybody.
But if you drive it, if you drive a 296 GTB and you drive the equivalent, let's say a PDK GT3, if you don't come out of the experience feeling like the Ferrari is superior in every measurable way.
I don't know what you're thinking because first of all, it's 819 horsepower.
Second of all, the build quality of the Ferrari, the touch points of the Ferrari, the way it sounds, the way it feels when you drive it.
The specialness of the whole brand thing is so much superior to a GT3, which costs as much if not more.
It just doesn't even make any sense to me, honestly.
And did you see they announced that you can get new steering wheel inserts for like with little buttons?
Yeah, but here's the thing.
There's nothing wrong with the haptics.
People don't know.
And again, I wrote an article about this for Full Throttle Talk.
You can go into the settings of the steering wheel.
Now, granted, three menus back, right?
I did a video actually posted this.
It's not easy to find.
And the name of it is something like it has nothing to do with haptics, but you can lock the steering.
So there's haptics on both sides of the steering wheel and they are a pain in the ass unless you get into the settings and you make it so the haptics themselves aren't activated accidentally after 10 seconds of driving.
And if you want to activate the haptics while driving, you just basically press a spot on the steering wheel for like three seconds and the haptics come back to life.
And then they put themselves in a dormant state again after 10 seconds because it's cruise control and things you'll never actually need.
So you don't need to have those activated while you're driving.
So people don't know that those are the people that bitch about the haptics, but you can actually deactivate them.
So why would anyone upgrade to a push button steering wheel, which is ugly?
I don't know.
That's my take.
So that's your automotive new Chanel.
Yeah, there it is.
I know I actually have got something else to talk about.
Good, let's go.
So Alpine, Alpine, the brand, let's say under Renault, you know, it showed a new chassis for their next generation car.
And what I love is that they're designing this chassis to be set up for both EV and, more importantly, ice.
And so I've got it shown in my back there.
You can kind of see that.
What's really cool is if you look at how the guy is seated, it's a very recumbent seating position.
So very sporty seating position, you know, more like a Lotus, you know, more like an Ariel or a Dragon, you know.
And so that's pretty exciting to me.
And then you look at the size of it, you know, you see this guy sitting in it and you can see the car is pretty small too.
So it's not going to be overly big.
So, you know, pretty exciting for a guy like me who loves these smaller, lighter, nimble, you know, sports cars.
Well, so look at the seating position.
That's more the rake than even alerts.
That looks like a Formula One seating position.
Yeah.
Can you cover your camera so we can actually see how straight the legs are?
Okay.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Almost is right.
Yeah.
That's incredible.
It really is.
It's pretty impressive.
And so that's exciting.
You know, it's great to see.
And they're saying that car is coming to the States.
You know, we...
Is this the A110?
Yes.
Replacer?
Yes.
Sweet.
Correct.
Yeah.
We should do...
We should do a episode or a segment on which brands do we think are not going to be here two years from now or five years from now?
Because I think we're going to see some consolidation in the industry for sure.
I'd love to see these Alpenes, you know, in the States.
I just don't know if it's going to happen.
You know, the sports car market continues to shrink.
I did a little bit of research.
10 years ago, there were about 25, 26 sports cars available in North America.
Right now, there's like 15.
So the market is shrinking and that's...
That's a...
You know, there's some consolidation that needs to happen and it kind of goes back to those discussions we've had about the market being very saturated.
Well, I mean, let's factor the whole hype, the whole autonomous car thing into this conversation.
If all of a sudden the preferred method of driving, like the average person, the reason that Tesla is coming out with a two-seater autonomous car, the RoboTaxi,
is because most people driving their big ass SUV, it's just usually one...
You guys know this.
Like when you see someone driving around, no matter what the car is, it's almost one single person.
So the likelihood of someone having three or more people, point being is it could very well be that the autonomous cars do replace most of the daily driving
and the psychology behind having SUVs and whatnot starts to melt away.
And that could be a renaissance for sports cars because that could leave something that's a segment that could get rebuilt as people start gravitating towards fun cars again.
We'll see.
What do you think?
You know, I think enthusiasts are buying enthusiast cars regardless.
So I don't know if it's going to draw more people to that segment.
Look, I buy a sports car because I love the fun of driving the sports car.
I love looking at a beautiful car.
These things all...
And then I'm probably going to have, when I'm 80 years old, one of those cyber taxis in my car to take me around.
To your point earlier, Tim, for the aging population, people that probably shouldn't be driving, the loss of mobility is a huge blow to their lives.
And so this is going to give them that freedom.
So, but yeah, I mean, look, man, I think I still believe that the sports car market is going to continue to shrink in these first world countries.
Yeah, I think so too.
All right.
So automotive news, that's very cool news.
Keep us up a prize of what happens with that from an engineering perspective.
I'm genuinely curious.
And if Alpina were to come back to Alpine, Alpine would come back.
Alpine, yep.
Would it be a standalone brand?
Do you any insider information on who it might be sold through?
No, I mean, I don't have any inside knowledge on it, but, you know, I mean, I can give you my professional opinion on it.
And I think that a standalone brand is just too expensive.
I think they need to do a brand within a brand kind of concept here.
And Stellantis has got, you know, they've got some significant challenges.
So how they're going to execute, who knows.
Stellantis owns that brand.
I didn't know that.
Stellantis owns that brand.
Yeah, Renault.
It's Renault.
Oh, wow.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Well, the best part about to me and Alpine A110 is that Gordon Murray daily drives one.
Yeah.
And I would love to experience that car.
Have you guys seen one of those actually?
Yeah.
I've seen one in Germany.
They're so cool looking.
Have you seen one?
I have.
I have.
Yeah.
They're cool.
I mean, look, I like them.
Okay.
But it's, it's, um, it's not something that, um, I go gaga over.
I, you know, I like it.
And I think it feels very practical to me.
It feels like a GR 86.
That's the way when I look at them, that's kind of what the thought that comes to my
mind, because it's not swoopy enough for me to get super excited about.
So you're teeing us up for Blair segment.
So Blair Automotive News, you're going to talk about the eighth generation Celica.
Yes.
Well, I was just going to be positive and talk about the Celica.
And then I saw this morning that AC schnitzer is officially closing its
doors this year, you know, the, the famed BMW tuning company.
And, uh, so just to touch on that real briefly, they said rising development costs,
lengthy German approval process, and the death of eventual death of the combustion
engine is why they're making this decision, which, which sucks.
Frankly, you know, that that's, that's the way this industry is going.
But to, to finish on a more positive note, Tim, you said it last week or
whenever it was Toyota seems to be the one of all auto manufacturers right now
committed to enthusiast drivers cars.
Um, so they just, it motor one, uh, came out with this bit of news that the
eight gen Toyota Celica is coming back.
And what, what I find as part of the, the emphasis and the strategy to
really go all in on the GR, Gazoo racing line of, um, of Toyota.
And, and this is going to slot right in that space.
So here's what, um, what I'm hoping.
My dad drove an old Celica GT back in the day, manual.
I remember him doing donuts in that car and the snow.
So, so cool.
My dad's like, not a car guy, but he had a cool car.
And so when I think of the Celica, I have fond memories of that.
The question for me is whether or not they're going to do this right by putting
that they're, they're, they're abandoning, I guess the three cylinder 1.6
liter motor that's in the GR Corolla and the RS in favor of a two liter four
cylinder motor, but are they going to do it right by putting that motor in this
car and giving an option for a manual gearbox?
Or are they going to do what Honda did with the new prelude?
And I don't know if you guys have seen any of those reviews, but it's some,
it's like a cross between a civic hybrid and like a Hyundai Veloster or a
Hyundai Ioniq 5N with the simulated gear shifts.
Um, they've kind of made this mashup of hybrid driver's cars.
And anyway, so we'll see.
I hope Toyota does it correctly.
I believe in them.
And I think Tim's right that they're the brand to watch.
Let's talk about segment three.
It's a Montana plate crackdown.
This actually was inspired by, um, again, a listener who asked us about this.
I did some homework on this for you guys so you can hopefully have prepared
for today's show, but I thought it was something.
We've talked about it on this podcast before and we've written articles about
this and the, the part that is fascinating to me is that it's not illegal
and everyone is being told that it's illegal, that it's not illegal to own a
Montana LLC.
You guys might want to scan these notes if you haven't done so already.
So we can all be reading literally from the same script.
Um, and the, the amount of hype that comes from this is uncomfortable
because it makes me feel like what's truly going on is classism or class warfare.
And they're trying to basically make it to rich guys bad because they're
trying to evade taxes on their expensive cars, even though it's actually
perfectly legal to do and companies have been doing it forever.
You know, just commercial companies and all the rest of it.
So what really was happening versus what is happening in the headlines.
Hopefully you guys can help me out here is that the real crackdown.
If there is such a thing affects so few people, individuals that it's nice.
It's like 17, I think.
And even if you look to see what those people are being essentially gone after
for, it makes perfect sense from a legal perspective.
They sort of falsified paperwork, but the real crackdown that's happening is
are over small dealers.
And this is again, we talked about this probably six, eight months ago on this
podcast, the small dealers who are being accused of selling cars that they
supposedly knew were going to California residents letting the California and
even though it was sold through to a Montana LLC, the California residents
would, you know, take delivery of the car in California and that's the big
no, no.
So I bought cars in California before and I, and I know for a fact that
California dealers are very sensitive about if you're, you know, if you're
California resident and they asked for ID, they want to know where your primary
residence is, you know, they, if you're going to take delivery of it and they
want it to be dropped off outside of the state of California.
So do you guys have any thoughts or insights on this?
Is this just a bunch of hype or is this actually something that somehow one of
the states has figured out a way to, you know, go after these LLCs?
What do you guys think?
Well, I live in Utah and they just passed Senate bill 52 in the state of Utah,
which basically allows legislators to work with third parties, which in this
case means insurance companies to verify where cars are being insured and
compare that with registration.
So if they're registered in Montana and they're insured in Utah, these are
the people they're coming after supposedly.
Now we've heard for years that they're going to crack down on this stuff and
I had never seen it.
Well, Senate bill 52 in Utah passes and my friend who has access to a huge
car collection through a family member, that family member was one and I'm
sure they were trying to just make an example of him.
He has been gone after and they under this new legislation and the result of
what has come from that is not.
And I've read in California, I think Tim and some of the stuff you wrote that
there potentially are some tax evasion charges in Utah.
At least they did not come after him for any criminal wrongdoing.
He said that the result of that investigation was he did have to pay
back all of those taxes.
But did he do that just because he wanted to settle and make the
problem go away?
Yes.
He didn't do that because he was actually convicted of anything.
He was doing that just to avoid hassle.
I mean, but there is legislation allowing them to come after and collect
these taxes and that's something they specifically.
But they couldn't prove where the car was domiciled.
Well, through insurance, if it's registered through or it's insured to
be in the state of Utah.
Now, I think I don't know even know what that means.
Honestly, if you have a car that's insured to be in the state of Utah,
but you have it in a different state, it's still insured.
Well, this is the part I don't know.
Like if you go to Hagerty, I mean, they want to know where the car is.
And I my understanding is the insurance rates in Utah different than
they do in California.
So there is some designation about where the car is is and where it's
under which, you know, cost structure that the car is going to be insured.
Yeah, but if you wreck the car in Maine, you know, they're still going to
cover the insurance.
Yeah.
The insurance is going to cover the damage.
You know what I'm saying?
So you can drive the car anywhere in the country.
You look, every state has the jurisdiction to determine what their
registration rules are going to be.
You know, my experience with Montana registration has been frankly
through a lot of kit car stuff.
And certainly here in Southern California, there's a ton of guys with
hypercars getting them registered through their LLCs to save quite a bit on
taxes and reg fees.
And so that that is a real issue.
And there's no question it's a money grab, you know, car sales are down.
So that means the state is not collecting as much money, you know,
our local government here in Temecula, actually, I think 40% of the
revenue comes from the there's the dealers that are located here in town.
You know, and so it's a significant amount of money that they're making.
And it's dropped.
They've had to cut their budgets, you know, pretty significantly because the
new car sales have dropped.
And so this is what always happens when, when tax revenue drops, the
government starts, you know, looking for ways to grab money.
And, you know, they have been cracking down on Montana plates for a while.
If they keep seeing you, you know, driving around with your Montana plate,
you know, in Irvine and anywhere.
And, you know, and it's a local cop that sees you.
You're likely to get pulled over.
But you just said, you said the scenario where you are risking it.
So if you're driving every single day and you drive by Bud the cop at
Starbucks or wherever, and he sees you every single day, he's going to put
two and two together if he's ambitious and if he gives a crap.
That's the truth.
Yeah.
Well, they're, they're insented now.
They're insented to do this because there's a fair amount of money for them
to get.
And it's, it's, um, yeah, it's a money grab right now.
And, and, you know, there's no reason why you can't have a legitimate
Montana LLC.
There's enough, you know, law firms there that are willing to set you up
and then you can have your cars register there.
And, you know, for a lot of these kit cars, that's the way, you know,
people have registered their BAC monos, their aerial Adams, even our
Dragon spider.
We've had a couple of clients that registered their cars in Montana.
Um, and so, but these are, these are clients that travel all over the
place and, you know, they're, they're pretty fluid from, from a mobility
perspective.
And so how can you argue that, you know, but you can't, yeah, you can't.
So the only thing you could do is basically chest pound and make people
and try to, you know, scare people into something.
I mean, that's really all it is.
And we did, if you read the article, guys, I did do some homework on this.
And the number of people that I think it's like five or something.
It's like nothing.
The number of people in any state that actually run a file of the law in a
real way, it's like nobody.
So this is just essentially what the states need to learn how to be more
competitive amongst each other, frankly, because Montana's got it hacked.
Well, well, and if I may, this is just my personal grievance.
I would love to air about why I think this is a scam and, and what part,
and the fact that they're coming at, that they're coming after people for,
for using Montana LLCs.
I mean, and I've heard, okay, well, if you could afford to buy that car,
you should be able to afford to pay the taxes.
Okay, fine.
But what frustrates me to no end, and I will admit, I do have a Montana LLC.
I have never used it.
And I used to be so anti Montana LLCs.
And now I've done a complete 180.
The reason why I've done 180 is you think about what these sales tax on new
vehicles is for transportation and infrastructure, education, the,
you know, public schooling, public safety.
Okay, great.
That sounds good.
So when I buy a new car, you ding me for that and you use it to
maintain public infrastructure.
I don't have a problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is when I buy an Audi R8 and I'm the ninth
owner of that car, the number of bites at the Apple that the state has taken
in all the states, wherever that car has lived to the tune of roughly
seven and a half, eight percent blows my mind.
And to contrast that is if that first guy or gal who bought the Audi R8
decided this is my dream car, I'm never selling it.
And they hold on to it for 40 years until it's a pile of rust.
It's the state gets one bite at that Apple.
So essentially they just, because they can, they're going to keep just
dinging everybody as enthusiast, change owners, change hands at these cars.
And it's like, well,
Well Blair, actually in California every year you're paying a registration fee.
Yeah, we do that too.
Yeah.
Right.
And it's significant here.
It's not $40.
You know what I'm saying?
It's based on the value of the car that they say the value of the car.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So just like your house, right?
So, but this is how they continue to take a bite of the Apple every year.
You know, even if it's one guy that owns it for 50 years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And all the guys that take a virtuous position on this very topic.
I get it.
But you know, public infrastructure matters.
But what if nobody sells their cars?
This is like, so you're punishing those of us.
And I told them last week's podcast, I owned an Audi S5 for nine days
because I hated the seats in it.
They dig me for sales tax for nine days and the car didn't work for me.
Okay.
Now fast forward to the original one of the topics we talked about earlier
with the autonomous cars.
Okay.
So if no one's buying cars, if they're essentially using autonomous cars,
what the hell are those states going to do to basically make up, you know,
to keep their DMV offices open those poor bastards, you know,
what are they going to do?
And then in California, she knew, didn't they pass a road usage tax or something?
Or is that just another Instagram click baby type type fest?
Yeah.
You know, I'm not sure there's probably, they've got to be thinking about that
because all the tax they've been collecting from gas is, is being lost with the,
the EV adoption that's, you know, pretty significant here in SoCal, you know,
throughout California really.
And so they've lost a lot of tax revenue, you know, from,
from the loss of, you know, gasoline sales.
And so just to summarize, if you were to look at the number of large dealers in
California that are having any kind of problem with this, there's none
because they can afford to defend themselves.
The guys that are getting picked on, because it's primarily dealers, if you guys
read that article that are essentially, I think there was 200 or no, 500 dealers,
I think.
Yeah.
They're all small guys.
They're not the big brands.
So that's really what this is.
This is, if you're a small little dealer and you're somewhere in Southern California,
you're selling 40, 50 cars a year and you've got this problem, you're going to have
to settle with them because you can't afford to defend yourself.
And I just don't, I don't like that.
It makes me uncomfortable.
The fact they're telling these small dealers, you have to vet your buyer.
I know.
And know exactly where this car is going to live and be driven.
How do you do that to me?
It's, it's the know your customer rules that basically, have you guys opened up a
new bank account like the last 10 years?
It's got to be kidding me.
They want to know every damn thing about you and your dog.
It's incredible.
And that's exactly what Blair said.
That's what they're expecting all these little dealers to start doing.
And if they miss anything, they're still going to be held responsible for the fact
that that individual didn't pay their California taxes.
It's incredible.
It's a no-win situation.
Especially when those cars are 40, 50 year old Porsches that have been collected on
or taxed about 15 times in the last 40 years.
It's like, what, what, what are we doing?
And now you're asking these guys to have their customer sign and affidavit or whatever it
is they're making them do to verify that.
It seems so stupid to me.
Clearly it's a, it's a topic I feel fairly passionate about the tax at once when it's
new and then quit grabbing money and you know, ripping people off.
So state of California, remember it's hashtag Blair Smith.
All right, let's go on to segment four.
Let's go into segment four.
Now this one I need you guys to help with because this is something I studied because
I did not freaking understand it.
I was hoping the engineer prepared for today's show by actually having studied this.
There was a big story that came out two or three days ago.
Maybe a week ago that's questioning Blair, you researched this too.
So it's news catching up.
I see his eyes moving as he reads.
So they put this out.
Let's just you and I work together on this.
So the gist of it was, is a really, really freaking smart dude, right?
On Renlist did a lot of homework and essentially has come to the conclusion that a lot of the
pricing on the new Porsches, the GT market in particular starting with the 992s is
contrived, if not straight up fake, because the cars have been trading in between dealers
and thus pushing the comps, you know, up.
And so people are seeing that these GT threes are selling for this much, but they're not
realizing that it's dealers that are selling the cars to other dealers.
And then those cars are somehow making their way back to the primary dealer and each time
the cars have been marked up.
And then when they, so go ahead Blair.
So yeah, the way I've understood it is you get a dealer with an allocation for a GT three
and a little bit of a side note in context here is she knew that my buddy you talked to
recently, he has been hit up by multiple brokers because that are trying to sell allocation
for these cars.
And he told this buddy of mine, GT three allocations are getting hard to sell.
And that they are, they are not flying off the shelves like they were like they're working
really hard to get these cars sold.
So anyways, these dealers get the allocation.
They go to like an independent dealer, seller, whatever and bring a trailer, right?
Primarily those guys are using bring a trailer to then sell, resell those cars.
And this guy who posted this on red list, he was tracking who these middlemen are and
getting these cars with like no miles on them over and over and over.
And then they're selling them to these guys that look like private sellers, but they're
actually franchise dealers again that are buying them.
So it goes from franchise dealer to a middle independent dealer buyer seller back to oftentimes
a different franchise dealer who are then putting CPOs on these cars.
And this guy has all of this data supporting who these guys on bring a trailer are.
They're very well known power sellers on bring a trailer.
And then the buyers, they don't look like franchise dealers, but he's done all the
back end legwork to show these guys are actually franchise dealers.
So then they slap CPO on the car.
And because of all this, these GT threes now are $370,000, $400,000 with the CPO warranty,
mileage hasn't changed.
They're on their third owner.
And then you think, okay, well, how do they, how does the market support that?
Well, it supports it because the supposedly open fair bring a trailer marketplace, which
defines the value on this has just said that no, they really are worth 370 grand because
it just traded for that.
But it's some ring this circle that these guys are all, you know, just passing it back
and forth, making it look like, well, no, this is the value so you can be rest assured.
Listen, this is the quote from Chicago, Chicago marketing 73% of all bat GT three transactions
that a dealer or dealer linked account on at least one side, almost a third were dealer
to dealer with no consumer involved whatsoever.
So it's, it's basically he's calling it of comp washing where essentially he said, again,
I said to you guys this article, I summarize the big ass law on rent less.
I actually read the, I read the thread in rent list.
So good.
Yeah, I did.
Yeah, I mean, look, these guys are all, you know, they're, they're in collusion with each
other and they're manipulating the market in a way that's probably legal.
And it's just, you know, taking advantage of just suckers who can't, you know, help
themselves and they're willing to spend these premiums for something that they believe they've
got to have.
I mean, yeah, I think somebody in there also talked about Rolex Rolex has been doing the
same stuff, you know, or maybe it actually was Tim was your article, I think, right?
We are comparing the Daytona and it's been the same nonsense there, you know, and people
get so excited and it's so funny.
You listen to people talking about, oh, waiting.
And, you know, they're, they've been selected to buy this Daytona or this GT three hours.
And it's like, give me a break, man, you're just buying something.
And you think that that's like some great privilege, you know, okay.
You said something and I don't think you meant it is as you implied, but they're not the buyers
who are buying these things don't realize that the prices are massively manipulated.
They don't realize that's what's happening.
So, so the premise of what, and I know that's what you meant.
The premise of what this guy was saying in his research was that we are basing, we're
creating a compare a comps of sales that are that are essentially manipulated.
So when you go and this has happened in automotive, I mean, you met a whole bunch of other brands
to luxuries, all kinds of different things.
You see this similar art, you know, Hermes purses, all this crap.
But what are these?
Well, no, actually, Ferrari doesn't allow that to happen.
You can't play games with Ferrari.
For I will take your dealership away.
If you play games like what the Porsche dealers.
So the questions I had really, I mean, you guys know who Steve Wynn is.
This is a very interesting.
I don't know.
Yes.
Yeah.
So you know how he lost his dealership because basically he flipped a Ferrari.
Hmm.
I didn't know that he flipped a lot for a spider that being a port or Ferrari sold to him and
he flipped it and they took his freaking franchise away.
And this was in a casino, right?
So Friday does not mess around or let their dealers play these games.
So the question I had after reading this is like, if I'm going and finding out with the
last compass, and this is what the premise of what Chicago marketing guy was saying on
Renless and you're, you're going to bring a trailer, you're going to cars, you're going
to all these places where you can check comps, even Hagerty, I suppose.
And you're seeing these numbers and you're making, okay, it must be worth $384,000,
but you're not realizing the price has been essentially artificially.
If you want to call it that though, I don't think it's illegal.
It's, I don't, I don't think it's ethical, but it's not illegal.
Um, and, and that means the bag holder ultimately is the end consumer because he's ended up buying
this thing.
And I didn't, I don't remember, but there's so many of these cars for sale right now
across the country.
And I too have noticed that the, um, overage on these cars, there's still people are still
paying over list for these things.
If you go through a broker, I think it's like 25 grand, isn't it?
Yeah, it is.
There's still a premium on it, but it's because Tim, because they can justify it by looking
at, bring a trailer and saying, Oh, that's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying.
Three 70.
So sure, I'll pay this markup.
Right.
Nobody has a gun to their head, guys.
Let's just be honest about this.
Okay.
I get it.
The, the market's being manipulated and it isn't honest.
You know, it's unethical, I think.
Um, but there are people that can stroke that check and they're willing to pay that premium
to have that experience, to have that particular car.
And it's a bummer, you know, but at the same time, it's a choice.
That you're making.
There's plenty of other cars you could buy.
There's so many other things you can do.
Let me reframe this.
And this is what Blair didn't want me to talk about.
I'm going to talk about it.
So you guys know what chandelier bidding is, right?
If you don't, that's okay.
No, I want you to talk about it.
I misunderstood.
You're sorry.
You're talking about, right?
Yeah.
So I've been, you, you've seen this.
You just didn't know what you were seeing.
So when you go to an auction, it doesn't matter what auction house it is.
Um, always, always sit in the back of the room.
If you just want the real entertainment, it's never in the front of the room.
They want you to sit in the front of the room, but you want to sit in the
back room, because then you're going to see the fake bidding.
And what the auction house will do, and it's called chandelier bidding,
because the auctioneer is like, you know, acting.
Oh, I got a bid here, bid here, bid here.
And he's pointing at the chandelier.
I mean, that's the premise of it.
It's called different things, but that's just a bit.
I was always wondering why it was called chandelier bidding.
That's why it's totally legal.
So what these auctioneers are doing.
And then when you hear, we have an internet bid.
We have a phone bid.
We have a bid over there, bid over there, bid over there.
And so I'm, I'm in.
And Julie and I, well, I hadn't been in an auction a while,
but when you sit in the back of the room, you can actually see them working with
the bidder assistant, you know, Barney over there in the back corners,
got a bid and you look over at Barney and Barney is like drinking his coffee.
There's no one around.
But if you're the front of the auction house, you don't realize that that was
a chandelier bid.
And so what they'll do is they'll get the price up to the bottom line of whatever
the seller's reserve is, and then they'll sell it.
So you could argue that they're protecting the integrity of the seller's equity,
which I think is true.
But again, you're fooling the buyer and you're, it's not a real market.
It's just, it's, it's, it's theater.
That's really all it is.
And that's the premise of what I think this guy has discovered tracking all
these VIN numbers, the Chicago marketing guy.
So what are you guys thinking?
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's happening.
I think that this is, you know, exactly.
I think he's, you know, is put it down.
And yeah, maybe some of it is, is not exactly the case,
but it's hard to argue with the amount of research it seems like he's done to,
to basically expose this nonsense that's happening.
Well, you guys, you guys have said multiple times on this podcast back in
my day, you know, I bought E 36 M threes and stuff new.
So we've established that you guys are old.
So you've also brought up the person who's not watching.
I'm sticking my finger up at Blair.
Okay.
Oh yeah, I'm supposed to be letting the audio only guys know what's,
what, what, what, what they're missing visually.
So yeah, he flipped me off.
But that is, um, what, what, but what you guys told, said,
and I've only been obsessed with cars for let's call it 10, 10 years yourself.
Um, you have described the day when GT threes did not fly off the lots that
they were hard to sell and the guys weren't buying the 997 R S's.
And again, before my time, so I didn't really see that before I was aware,
I should say.
And so I go back to that thought thinking, why are GT threes now,
even though there's 300, that's a, well, give or take on cars.com.
There's 300 of these things you described today when GT threes were like rare.
They weren't pumping them out like candy, like they're doing now.
And now they're pumping them out.
And yet we're seeing values that skyrocket.
They're not going down.
Guys keep stroking the checks, as Shanu said.
And I do think there's, to some extent, it is a perfect storm because of where
the car market is going.
We're talking about autonomous pods and it coming and AC schnitz are going.
And the GT three is like the last bastion.
If you want high revving, naturally aspirated with great dynamics and a manual
transmission, it's like the perfect store for these guys to get away with this.
Okay. So hover there.
Great points.
Have you considered how many of these damn things they have made?
They have made crap tons.
How many GT three R S's are out there?
Are those cars rare?
No, they are not.
There's zero chain.
And how many of the people buying these cars are going to be track nerds.
It's not like you in Germany, people actually drive the damn things on the
track here.
Where do they drive them?
Nowhere or cars and coffee.
You know how I know?
Look at the miles on these things.
Right.
So at the end of the day, it's just attracting a different kind of buyer.
And I think portion knows it.
And there you go.
And that's Tim and I talked about this.
And what I find the key of this with Ferrari is the fact that if you can get
a warranty for six or eight grand for a couple of years for $400,000, why aren't
people buying 812 Superfast and F 12s and two nine sixes?
I don't have the experience and I love GT threes, but it's blowing my mind that
GT threes are the only car that seem immune from any sort of depreciation and
have an unlimited, you know, demand for these things.
It's, it's fascinating.
What are you thinking?
Listen, I think they're going to depreciate.
I think this is a bubble.
I think it's absolutely a bubble.
It's irrational.
Okay.
Like we've seen this happen so many times with things, you know, and it's just,
it's going to come down to earth.
It needs to.
There's just a lot of hype right now and people are just delusional.
They think that the car is worth that kind of money.
It's not.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
I love them, but that's just, it's just paying that much over, you know,
sticker is just, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a fool's folly.
You know, and so I think, you know, look, you Ferrari plays their own games,
right?
You, you've got to buy certain cars before you get access to other cars.
Right.
So this is how they do their type of, uh, let's just call it, you know,
what it is, you know, chandelier bidding of their own, you know,
it's just a different, you know, language, you know, different form that it
takes, but ultimately, you know, cars are a commodity.
And when you make too many of them, and I think Porsche probably have made
too many GTs that, you know, the market's going to, you know, it's,
it's going to correct itself.
Um, I think there are certain special cars that are going to hold their values,
the 911 Rs. Um, I think probably the ST, you know, those kind of cars,
I think we'll, we'll continue to, to hold their value, but I think the,
the vanilla GT three, um, uh, you know, I think they're going to come down.
Me too.
And by the way, they are awesome cars.
I love them.
I do too.
They're wonderful.
Great, great car.
Cool car.
Yeah.
Uh, who knows?
I mean, we'll have to see where the market takes us all as we go through
these changes and the changes are going to happen fast and furious.
But at the end of the day, that's what she knew.
Said spline, man.
I mean, at the end of the day, that's the bottom line.
It's, there's too many of them.
And if what percent, if you guys had to guess of the buyers of these cars
are listening to full throttle talk or car enthusiasts or just buying them
because they're status symbols, if you had to guess of these, you know,
hardcore porces, the GT three RS is an example.
People have speculated that they've made something like 7,000 of those
things.
I don't think it's publicly known.
Okay.
What percent of those guys are not, are just going to move on to the next
flavor of the month.
What percent?
I think 10% of GT three and GT three RS owners listen to automotive
podcasts.
I bet you that's a good line of delineation.
I bet you're right.
But don't you think I don't think he's wrong.
I think it makes sense.
Yeah.
And so that means that the, whatever the next flavor of the month cars,
maybe it's another Porsche or maybe it's something else, those cars are
going to go for sale.
And that's going back to one of the reasons that the Corvette, you know,
they're obviously going to make as many that they can sell.
That's what GM says, but you're going to see when the new, whatever the Zora,
you know, that's going to depreciate cause massive hypothetical depreciation
in other C eights, you know, it's supply and demand.
It's whatever people, it's emotions really.
Well, and depreciation is to a large extent very healthy.
It means you can buy these cars for a reasonable amount,
hang on to them for a couple of years, lose a five, 10 grand and sell it.
And, but, but, but this, this GT three, like floor that somehow has been
developed, whether it's through manipulation or through the cult that
is Instagram centric as Tim's always described it.
You know, it's, it's fascinating that they have somehow developed this
floor that doesn't seem to want, want, want to break.
And logic would tell you it's going to, it has to.
And yet I've eaten my words many times before.
So maybe, maybe somehow this will buck the trend and it just, they'll never.
I'll tell you something else Blair that you might find surprising.
And I know she will agree with me.
People didn't used to fancy these things.
People used to pay cash.
When you were buying a dumb car, like what we like to talk about, you know,
you are always paying cash nowadays.
Most it's virtually unheard of that people pay cash.
They almost finance everything.
And you've got so many years that you can finance the car, right?
There's all these new financial products allowing people to finance an exotic
like this for 10 years.
I mean, even leasing, you know, scenarios that have allowed a lot of people
to get into these exotic, you know, car spaces where 30 years ago,
that just wasn't, you know, even possible.
Yeah.
So bottom line with regards to what Chicago marketing on Renlist has exposed.
I thought he frankly did a great job.
It was interesting to listen to people argue both sides of it and reading on
both sides of it and on Renlist.
How some people thought, well, that's the nature of the market.
Dealers are going to do what dealers are going to do.
But yeah.
So the bottom line is you think, I mean, who, who thinks it's unethical?
Raise your hand.
Well, I certainly think it's unethical.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the bag holder is going to ultimately be the buyer who's, you know,
maybe we're saving him.
Well, so if the bubble were to pop, Chanel, what do you think would be,
what would lead up to a popping would just be some economic problem?
Or would you just be people's taste meandering in a different direction?
Maybe it's the new Tesla Roadster.
Who knows?
What do you think?
Yeah.
No, I think that's exactly what it is.
I mean, we, we keep, I've been waiting for, for a massive recession to happen
here those last several years, but we, we keep just trudging along.
But yeah, it could be some economic thing that, you know, breaks the economy.
And so folks that were able, that were buying these kinds of cars are out of
work or need some cash.
So they flood the market with their car and there's a pile of them out there
and the price has just dropped.
Yeah.
But yeah, I think that there's the, there is a host of things here that I
think will pop this.
And I think the supply issue is my biggest, is my biggest reason.
I think.
I think Tim has described it the very best that in the 997 GT3 days, car
enthusiasts, those 10% listening to podcasts, they were buying those cars.
Well now, yeah, there's always been plenty of cash in this world and in this
country, but now you see GT3s being the new Lamborghini.
It's the new Instagram car.
And so, you know, the money hasn't changed necessarily, but now all of a
sudden all these 90% non-car podcast guys are flooding the GT3 market because
they've always had money.
Now they just happen to want GT3s.
Well, they're influencers.
People actually are able to make somewhat of a living.
In some cases are very good living from being influencers.
And some of these influencers are, you know, they've, they could have chosen any
particular segment.
They just chose it to be cars and that's what they make content from because
they can make money from it.
And if the car influencing space becomes oversaturated, they're going to pop
to whatever the new thing is.
These are just marketing guys that are making content.
They're making money from making content.
They're not real car enthusiasts.
They're just content creators.
Yeah.
And that's where people get confused.
And you know, my least favorite thing about this whole thing is I wish they were
buying some totally overrated bull crap car and they're not.
They're buying the best car.
So it's like, you can't, you know, it's hard to make fun of them too much
because they happen to have the car that I would love to drive.
And they're buying like the best sports car arguably of all time.
And it's, it's like, well, what are you going to say?
They happen to get a cool car.
Is it though?
I mean, we should round the bend, but is it really the best sports car of all time?
How about GT sports car?
How about that?
No, no, seriously, is the GT three really truly the best sports car of all time?
Maybe we should just level off and pick that up next week.
That would be a very good debate.
And all right, we'll debate it.
And the guy who just called Shenu, my buddy, he's got the 964 RS.
He also happens to have a 992.2 GT three and he loved the 111 RS at least.
So there you go.
There, there are alternatives that literally do exist.
All right.
So let's have that be a topic.
The three best alternatives to a GT three that you feel that you're now afraid to
take arrows for having stated that are, we can go two or three, you guys can decide
that are, that maybe have yet to be discovered or respected, that are better
alternatives in your opinion than the GT three or the GT three RS.
How about that?
What do you guys think?
And they can be global cars.
They can carry like a 230 pound mastiff or anything in it.
Do we name Matt?
Well, there you go.
There's another full trial talk.
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You guys have a great weekend.
See you.
Take care guys.
About this episode
The hosts pivot from their planned agenda to tackle two hot topics: the Montana LLC plate crackdown and whether Porsche GT pricing is being artificially inflated. They argue the “crackdown” headlines are overstated—real enforcement targets specific dealer behavior and paperwork issues, with some states using insurance/registration data to pursue tax gaps. They also dig into “comp washing” in the GT3 market, where dealer-to-dealer shuffling and CPO cycles may distort comps. Between segments, they trade driving stories (Lotus Elise 111R vs 964 RS), discuss Corvette/Z06 chatter, and debate Tesla Cybercab economics and safety implications, plus Ferrari battery warranty and Alpine’s EV/ICE chassis plans.
Original notes
This week on Full Throttle Talk, the original agenda gets scrapped in favor of two stories everyone seems to be talking about: the Montana plate crackdown and whether Porsche GT pricing has become artificially inflated. The team breaks down what’s real, what’s hype, and why both stories matter to enthusiasts and buyers right now.
They also cover:
Lotus Elise 111R vs. Porsche 964 RS
Corvette Z06 market talk and Callaway
Tesla Cybercab and the future of autonomous transport
Ferrari 296 warranty and value
Alpine’s new chassis
AC Schnitzer shutting down
Toyota Celica rumors and the shrinking sports car market
For more enthusiast deep dives, subscribe to the newsletter:https://fullthrottletalk.com
Full Throttle Talk
Tim Harris
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73:43