Navigating the World of Electric Cars and Charging Systems
In Wheel Time Podcast: Your Go-To Automotive Talk Show
Navigating the World of Electric Cars and Charging Systems
In Wheel Time Podcast: Your Go-To Automotive Talk Show · Jul 3, 2023
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Welcome to another in wheel time podcast, a 30-minute mini version of the in wheel time car show that airs live every Saturday morning 8 to 11 am, central Live from studio a inside the world famous sugar shack in Texas, usa.
It's the in wheel time car talk show.
Well, we were gonna try to zap the power of buzz Smith with a hundred degree heat and EVs, and we're gonna still try to get him on, but Mars has had all sorts of issues over there.
Along with the other issues that Mars normally has in his life, we'll also have the upcoming events calendar Mars reviews, the new Kia sell toast for 2024 Yes, not 23 as he wrote down here.
Plus, you'll hear the stories make an automotive news headlines.
Howdy, along with Mike out of this world, mars King Conrad along.
We need more.
Jeff Zekin, i'm Don Armstrong, glad that you could join us on this day, on this Saturday.
It is the 4th of July weekend in Houston, texas, and we are so glad that you could join us and thank you very much for doing that.
It's not the 4th of July yet Around the world as we know it yes, it is.
It's the 4th of July everywhere.
Who cares whether or not they celebrate it with us?
because they all want to come here anyhow, because we're the greatest country in the world.
I hear just a little bit of bitterness.
Yeah, and Mary Barrett still making 27, 29, whatever.
It's the American way it is.
So we were going to have buzz Smith on talk about electric cars and I love, i Love, i love razzing buzz and if he can hear us, you know it's all it's done.
Kind of Cheeky, but he's a font of information.
He is a font of information and I do respect his knowledge.
And you know he's a big flag waiver of all things electric, Especially automobiles.
So with that in mind, he's an early adopter, he is.
so, if you want to adopt buzz Yeah, that's an email Buzz is that I didn't realize this.
He was a car salesman many years.
Yeah that he sold gasoline engines and I think it was the classic Chevrolet and grapevine which is kind of the mothership to the classic Chevrolet's throughout Houston.
So he would be Trans automotive, yeah, by.
Or binary.
I'm not gonna go there.
It would be mr Buzz Smith.
It would just be buzz and Sewell up in the Dallas area is the mothership of all the schools.
All right.
Volkswagen is in talks now with Tesla to adopt its North American charging standard, or Nax Technology, while the German automakers charging network unit, electrify America, has already agreed to use the system.
So I did not realize that Volkswagen is behind electrify America, which is charging places.
Did you know that?
No, i didn't realize that they were behind it.
I'm not surprised that they're a part of it, though The announcement comes as a slew of automakers and charging equipment makers choose Tesla's charging design on concerns of losing out on customers if they offer only the Combined charging system or CCS design, which is backed by automakers like Volkswagen and Hyundai.
Electrify America, volkswagen's EV charging network unit, has more than 850 charging stations with about 4,000 chargers in the US and Canada.
During the Nax Transition, electrify America will continue to offer the widely used CCS connector, so what they're going to do is have to there for you eventually.
Well, and that's why they all want to jump on Tesla, because Elon is spending money on the infrastructure, building Tesla charging stations, you know like I said, him spend his money and we'll just kind of well, i mean there yeah, but they're gonna pay to get on his on his thing.
It's like I said out in a Beaumont that out there near Papa does and Elon put in 12 charging stations.
So you know it's in a little shopping center, you know you can go eat dinner at.
Papa does gets car charged.
You know I'll be.
Those actually would probably be the ones that paid for that right.
Well, it's not actually on Papa does property, but yeah, papa does benefits from it because it's just a short walk.
So that's a new business opportunity.
Then Conrad DeLong wants to put in charging stations.
So you contact Tesla, you own the property, you buy that Equipment from Tesla and you put in your own charging station.
Well, yeah and I know I've told the story before There's a home depot in Fresno, texas, that has 10 or 12 Tesla charge and Tesla charging stations are real easy to see.
They have these white and with red banding And they say Tesla and they say Tesla on them.
That you know that's where you go pull up.
Well, the funny thing is, behind all of these is a little Cement brick building and inside that cement brick building is a diesel generator That creates the energy, the electricity.
Oh, so it's not hooked up to the grid.
No, it's not hooked up to the grid now.
The one in Beaumont hooked up to the grid.
The other one up by me, up by the vintage, That's hooked up to the grid as well.
So they just built 12 more 12 more ports up there by the vintage.
So Tesla is expanding its footprint of charging stations Everywhere and that's why everybody wants to jump on it.
You know they don't want to spend the money themselves To build it, but they're more than happy to technology, the engineering, all the R&D Yeah they're happy to ride that pony, from the wiring to the sheet metal to the software.
Automakers that plan to adopt Tesla's plug For their own EVs have bigger design and engineering challenges than just changing the receptacle in the charge port.
Speaking of receptacles, you have one right there on your table.
I'll tell you about that a minute.
So far, general Motors, ford, rivian, volvo and others have committed to adopting Tesla's North American charging standard plugs.
Stellantis and Hyundai have said they are considering making the same move.
The Nax plug receptacles are scheduled to start appearing on non Tesla EVs in 2025.
While Tesla's smaller Nax receptacle easily fits behind the charge port doors on other brands vehicles, engineers have some work to do, and on board software enabling non Tesla vehicles to communicate With Tesla chargers has to be created, tested, validated and integrated.
So it's not paid for.
And paid for, yeah, because Elon's not going to do any of that for them, for free.
No, he developed it.
He spent his is coin developing the whole thing.
It's so funny the the similarities between VHS and Betamax and I know that we're all old enough to remember this.
We probably have some viewers, listeners on our show that aren't but back in the day, when VHS became a thing and everybody had to Have a VHS or Betamax, and.
Betamax.
My opinion was better It was.
It was the technology was better, except VHS was cheaper and everybody went with VHS.
Betamax is still around, well For technical purposes.
I guess it is because who uses tape anymore now It's all Computer chip They chose.
Yeah, but I thought there's any blockbusters still open?
There is one Yes, yeah, yeah, was it Seattle or something?
I think it's in.
Seattle.
Yeah, one one blockbuster, yep, that was the thing.
I wonder if I still have my account open for one.
I didn't return.
I probably own a couple thousand dollars.
There was a competitor back in the heyday of it.
What was the name of the competitor to blockbuster?
It was next door to Las Tios.
Remember that That was a video store there?
Yes, it was, and they had a, a porn section.
Oh, that had the swing and if you wanted to go back there You had to go through the swing and doors and there were the porn tapes, not that.
I ever did.
Because you know, he realizes it was swinging.
Door.
Well, it said adults.
Only you open the door and the tape's all over the wall.
And where was it?
The swing and and right and right.
Next to those teos too, yep, how handy, and then they that closed and we took the wall down Expanded the restaurant.
Oh yeah that's right, so there's.
I would imagine there's a certain table inside the restaurant now that you could sit in was in the porn, so it was in the porn section of the video store You go, all right.
Well, you walk him back to the restaurant.
They got the separate room.
That's not it.
That's not it, the furthest corner where we sat before and the furthest that's where we rarely sit back there actually.
Yeah, they don't allow us back there.
No, they don't know where you met leslie.
No, no, it's a lot of teos.
Yes, it is, yeah, those tears Not met her, no, I saw, are you reconnected?
reconnected.
Are you with us?
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute, it's a rare.
Here's a look at buzz.
I know doesn't he look sharp, but he's not up there.
I know that's my next quite.
Can you talk to buzz?
buzz can hear us.
buzz, are you there?
Look at you.
That's not here.
Oh my god, he's Halfway there.
All right, we don't have video but we've got audio buzz So I know he's speculated earlier before the show what you were going to be wearing.
Since it's fourth of july weekend, We've all said that it's got to be the red sequined jacket And I said you at least have to have a stovepipe hat or some top hat that's sequined as well.
Is that what you're wearing Now?
actually, i've got a hawaiian shirt.
On the background is the beach scene and, uh, i've got a straw hat on.
This is about heat and how it affects eb's right, so, uh, i thought I'd dress the part.
Well, I'm doing a heat episode.
Well, we sure appreciate you being with it.
The funny thing about it is we can see you on mars computer But for whatever reason we can't get it on the air.
So just know that we really appreciate your appearance and the hawaiian background, the hat, the whole nine yards.
I'm wearing my dumb and dumber show, which is fitting I thought, audio just locked up guys.
I'm here to me, yeah, we could hear you.
Mars is moving a wire.
Yeah, mars is moving wires.
You know, when everything works, let's, let's move something.
Yeah, exactly, can you hear us now?
Absolutely All right, don't touch anything else till we go to commercial break then I'll do it Talk to us about how does heat affect eb's?
It doesn't.
Well, thank you so much for that.
Okay, well, that's the end of that check.
Let's move on now.
I'm gonna do the key.
I'm sure we've got a car review or something, yeah.
No, actually I've got a lot of good data for your, for your listeners, on eb's and heat today, so let's jump right into it.
Please go right ahead.
Okay, so hot temperatures are hard on electric vehicles, which can shorten their driving range permanently.
Evies have systems to prevent this, however, and you can help your ev as well.
Some of these systems are the same as they are on traditional internal combustion engine or ice vehicles, like water pumps, radiators and fans.
It's surprising for most new ev drivers to hear their vehicle make sounds even when it's turned off.
That's because the ev is protecting its battery pack.
It monitors the battery and ambient temperature 24 hours a day, whether the car is turned on or off.
If it gets too hot, uh, it may turn on fans and or a water pump to cool the battery.
If it gets too cold, it may warm the battery using an electric heater.
Now, unlike a traditional ice or internal combustion engine Vehicle, the engine or motor does not need to be running to run the water pump, fan or heater, because they're not Mechanically attached to a crankshaft, because they're electric and evs don't have crankshaft.
Do those systems work?
do those systems work off of a 12 volt battery, or do they work off the battery of the ev, the big battery?
It's probably the big battery pack.
In fact I'm 99% sure that in most EVs it's the battery pack, but I can't say that's true on every EV out there.
Yep, Now you have the ability to plug your EV in at home or, if you have that ability, plug it in any time it's parked.
Electric fans and water pumps use electricity.
The EV uses the electricity to move down the road.
So if your EV isn't plugged in, where's it going to get that electricity?
It will be from the battery pack.
In other words, you will lose a little driving range and if that's needed to keep the battery within its recommended temperature range, Now it's not much.
Mine uses about a half a kilowatt to a kilowatt kilowatt to run the AC to keep me cool.
Now, on a modern EV with a 60 kilowatt battery pack, that would keep the AC running for over 100 hours and still leave at least 40 miles of range to get to work.
So plugging in your EV does not necessarily mean charging.
Many EVs and many EV home chargers have the ability to delay the start of charging and there are several ways that that helps.
One charge when it's cooler.
Now, that doesn't mean wait until autumn.
It means cool down at night.
The heat experienced by the battery is a combination of heat charging from and the temperature around the EV.
Set your charging session to start around mid-light or a little later.
If your EV charger has a delay function, you don't have to do anything but set it and forget it.
Evs and chargers have Wi-Fi capabilities and apps for your smartphone to set this up as well.
An added benefit is that, although EV charging increases grid electricity demand, again, we can help our electric grid by not charging at the same time.
Our home AC units are running full blast And if you have free nights and weekends from your electric company, the electricity used to charge your EV is free.
So everybody turns their charger on at midnight and then everybody browns out because 5,000 people on your section of the grid.
We got to have a poo poo here.
The interesting thing is I've attended a bunch of electric utility meetings and they tell me at night they have got huge surpluses of wind energy that they can't sell.
They're letting it go to ground.
Basically, they're turning the fans neutral so they won't spend, because they got nobody to sell the electricity to And these.
this is why they're not really going to impact the grid, like everybody's afraid of, is we're going to use electricity in the off hours when there's plenty available.
Now one other thing if you have an EV bike or a scooter one of those skateboards that are you have battery powered lawn care equipment take those batteries inside your home to recharge in the air conditioning.
They don't have fans or coolants.
Also, don't leave them unattended while charging.
Number two charge at a slower rate.
Charging the battery heats it up.
The faster you charge, the hotter it gets.
If you can charge at home, you won't be using DC fast charging, which is very fast.
In fact, dc fast charging is great for long distance trips or once a week fill ups, but it's better for your EV if you don't use it all the time.
DC fast chargers also have different charge speeds, so unless you're in dire need of speed, like on a cross country trip.
use a 50 kilowatt DC fast charger instead of a 350 kilowatt charger to reduce battery stress.
There are charging apps for your smartphone that will help you locate chargers and it'll tell you what rate they charge the car at Three, because the miles gained per hour of charging is significantly lower with level two, 240 volt charging and as much.
it is much less stressful And there are lots of level two public chargers, many of them free.
Level one, 110 volt, is even more gentle on your battery.
Now, if your daily commute is less than 40 miles, try using the level one charger that came with your EV, just plugged into a 110 outlet.
when it's really hot, who cares how long it takes if you're asleep while it charges.
Four this sounds obvious, but part of being cooler is being in the shade.
If you charge under a carport, in a garage or under a shade tree, you've reduced the temperature around your car and it helps.
Number five just like an ice vehicle, check your coolant reservoirs regularly.
Most EVs, one notable exception being the Nissan Leaf, have radiators.
If a radiator runs out of water in an ice vehicle, you can burn up the engine, requiring an expensive replacement In an EV to protect its battery.
it will just turn off if it gets too hot, but it will warn you in advance.
And, if I can interrupt for a moment, it's not just go to AutoZone and buy antifreeze that fits anything.
You have to use a very specific antifreeze in an EV system that's non-conductive, because there's all these free electrons floating around and you don't want that to transfer someplace.
You don't want it to in an EV.
So I know that that's one of the components of EV is it takes a very specific coolant.
Yeah, and actually this next point addresses that.
So six change the battery coolant.
Curve the maintenance schedule for your EV.
Now, general Motors EVs recommend coolant changes every 150,000 miles.
Let the dealer do this for you.
If you get air bubbles in the coolant, the reservoir could look full, but as you're driving, those bubbles will burst, reducing the coolant level, and that could result in the shutdown that I mentioned just a second ago.
Tiny bubbles.
Yeah, exactly.
So let them do it.
It's not expensive.
You know it's an easy way to go.
Number seven, and this is huge, precondition the battery before you dry.
Now, many of us got used to remotely starting our regular cars in very hot or very cold weather to make the cabin comfy for us.
This capability exists for EVs as well, but if you precondition the cabin, it also preconditions the battery pack, warming it or cooling it to get the very best mileage per kilowatt hour.
Now it only takes 10 minutes to do this and many EVs have a button on the key fob or a smartphone app that makes it super easy.
Some, like mine, also have a key fob button to roll down all the windows simultaneously.
When I preconditioned during the summer in Texas, i know it's still maybe warmer in that cabin than I'd like even after preconditioning.
So I, just before I get in the car, I'll press that button, lower all the windows, vent any hot air that's remaining in the cabin.
Finally, one tip that is both for EV and ICE drivers Temperatures inside vehicle cabins quickly get to life-threatening levels in Texas heat.
In response to this, many vehicles today have a backseat passenger warning system.
Myvolt has this When a note enabled, if a backdoor of the car is open within a few minutes before starting the car, it thinks a child or a pet is in the backseat.
When the car is turned off, a chime sounds and the warning check backseat appears on the dash.
Please check your owner's manual for this feature and turn it on.
We can all make a mistake with horrific consequences.
We're only human.
Once, while driving to work, my infant daughter suddenly spoke up from the backseat and it's surprised the heck out of me.
Although I was taking her to daycare as well, i had forgotten she was back there.
It could happen to anyone, so please do everything you can to prevent that.
Well, that's what I got for you today, guys.
Well good information.
Yeah, great information.
Truly loved it.
By the way, you can't, can you see us?
Yes, you can see us, so I am driving a Kia EV6 that I just got on Thursday.
Oh my God, are you jealous?
Sweet, sweet car.
Yeah, i know, i knew that you would be all over that.
Well, there's no, there's no power cord, but what there is is this thing Okay, there's the plug that goes in the car right?
Oh, that's a.
V2L, a vehicle to load connector.
Yeah Well, you've got a 110 outlet on one end right.
Well, yeah, Except it's got a male plug connector inside of it.
Oh, I don't have a male to male to fit into the house.
All I've got is male female extension cords.
So I have no, I have no cords.
But what is cool about that?
and this is supported by the EV6, they probably just forgot to give you the charger.
I haven't really seen what a normal charger for them looks like.
But the V2L or vehicle to load connector allows you to plug this thing into the J1772 port and it feeds AC electricity through the 110 outlet on the backside, to say a freezer.
So that's for outbound power Don.
Yeah, so this is That's not for inbound power.
This is for outbound power.
Correct.
Well, not being able to see it up close, i'm not sure, but Yeah that was my thought when he showed it to me is that it was designed for once.
The car is charged for outbound power.
Yeah, that's the part that plugs into the car that you just opened the car.
Well then, that makes tons of sense.
Now I know why there's a male connector inside this thing.
Mm-hmm.
So Yeah, The female is that just a 110 outlet connector or a 240?
Yeah, no, it's a 110.
Okay, Yeah, that's the vehicle.
I've never seen one in person.
That's really cool.
Well, there you go.
Now you have.
Yeah, it is actually.
If that's what it's for, i thought, well, how the hell am I supposed to charge it with two males on it?
But whatever, anyway, so that's good to know.
Thank you very much.
You've helped us out already on that deal.
I think the Supreme Court actually allows you to have two male connectors charging.
Not in the state of Texas.
You got to go to California.
No, no, not in the state of Texas.
Oh my God, i knew we were going to go off the rails at some point and there it is, buzz.
It's great to talk to you, my friend, and we're sorry.
We apologize for the problems that we've got with our video stuff this morning, but Mars has been plowing through it for the past hour and a half.
But we can tell everybody you look real spiffy in your Hawaiian shirt in the background.
I just tell them there's visual aids.
Have, mike, take a screenshot of me right now and put that on your video.
No, no, no, let's not get him to do anything.
He'll give everything a crash when he does.
How about your Facebook page?
You got it Okay.
Yeah.
By Smith.
The UB Angel is stunned.
Facebook Very good.
Buzz, great to talk to you, my friend.
Thanks so much for all that great information.
We appreciate it.
You bet Have a good one, guys, you too, all right.
Mr Mars, I know that you haven't been doing anything over there, so it's time for you to actually do something.
Well, apparently it's not going to happen.
Another thing to connect Something else.
Conrad in the meantime, why don't you do the events calendar?
How's that You do that Sure?
Well, big event tomorrow is Coffee and Chrome out at the Avalon Diner, basically at Highway 90 and 59, 69 or Southwest Freeway, and let me interrupt that.
Whatever they want to call it.
And let me interrupt that.
So my plan is to take Leslie's brand new Archer Volkswagen, Volkswagen Tiguan.
Hallelujah, she got rid of the Jag.
Oh my gosh, that's the smartest thing she could have done is get rid of the Jag.
Get rid of that Jag before it costs her even more money.
What a POS.
You have no idea what a relief it is to have that out of my life, and I know hers too.
And Jaguar was worse than a boat about pouring money into a hole.
Oh my, God, you have no clue.
You have absolutely no clue.
And I guess that the real tip-off came when I bought the in-cab and air filter And I was ready to help you this weekend.
Yeah, and guess what?
You have to take out half the dash to change the in-cab and air filters.
You have to take two of y'all to change the air filter.
In-cab and air filter, one to hold the filter and the other to spin the ladder.
Okay, anyway, go ahead with the events calendar, please.
So, and then tonight is Brookshire Brothers Cruising in Montgomery, texas.
Starts at 5 pm at the Brookshire Brothers in Montgomery.
The Wharton Cruise Night is tonight.
starts at 6 pm at Domino's Pizza off of Boiling Highway, boiling Highway and Boiling Highway, and.
Boiling Highway and Also the cruise in East Montgomery.
It's an open cruise in event at 943 Eva Street.
So lots of stuff going on in Montgomery.
Saturday at the ranch at the Harley Davidson in College Station starts at 11 AM to 3 PM today.
At the Harley Davidson At the.
Harley Davidson place.
It's a cruise, an open cruise, in for free.
And then tomorrow is the Woodlands Coffee and Cars for a Cause at Six Pines Drive, one of Randy Weldon's events that he supports a lot, and all the money raised is given to local Montgomery County charities.
Coffee and tuners at Tom and Tom's Coffee Gallery.
Coffee and tuners.
Tuners, oh tuners, not tuners, that go well together.
Coffee and tuna, oh boy.
A nice little tuna sandwich.
I could go for that Coffee and tuna.
It's fish with a buzz Anyhow, that's at 5353 West Alabama Coffee and cars and coffee and Aggie Land Outfitters, east University Drive and College Station, and then coffee and cars at Nose.
Cafe.
Can you not read that?
well.
There's a lot of stumbling going on there.
It's really tiny print.
Is that what it is?
Is it a tiny print Back to you, Don?
Well, I'm sorry.
I'm not trying to.
Yeah, I just want to know.
I didn't know.
Yeah, I need to increase my font size My glasses.
It helps me.
It helps me when you do that Yeah.
So anyway a shout out to the general manager and the staff at Archer Volcan on the Southwest Freeway.
Thank you very much for a wonderful experience down there with Leslie's brand new tick one.
Thank you for taking our money.
Listen thank you for taking her Jaguar Yeah thank you And thank God, it's all I can tell.
What a relief, what a relief it is.
And hopefully you sell a contract on it when you sell it to whoever you sell it to, because they're going to need it.
They're going to sell it, not now.
That's what I meant.
Yeah, if they're going to sell it off, they use car.
There goes all those accolades, we just keep them.
No, no, not has nothing to do with the dealership.
It has everything to do with the Jaguar the F-Pace.
Buy one today or tomorrow or tomorrow.
There's that All right.
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Hey, the In Wheel Time car talk show continues right after this quick break.
Come on at the tailpipes and tacos.
Cruise in at the Loupi Tortilla Tex-Max in Katie.
Thank you for participating in the best cruise in around and look forward to seeing you again.
You'll hear about the next cruise in date right here on In Wheel Time.
Next time you're in the West Houston energy corridor area, be sure and stop in at the original Loupi Tortilla Tex-Max at I-10 and Highway 6 or the Katie location on the Grand Parkway at Kingsland Boulevard When passing through Beaumont or College Station, stop in and have Loupi's award-winning beef fajitas and frozen margaritas.
There's always a celebration at Loupi Tortilla.
Loupi Tortilla founders Stan Hold and his wife Sheila are winning racers on the NHRA drag racing circuit and have a collection of hot rods and classics that everyone appreciates.
Look for them at the next tailpipes and tacos cruise in.
The date will be announced soon and will once again be held at the Loupi Tortilla Tex-Max on 99 in Kingsland Boulevard, just south of I-10 and Katie.
We'll give you all the details right here on the In Wheel Time car talk show and online Donations benefit God's Garage.
See you then.
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About this episode
Electric vehicles (EVs) face unique challenges in hot weather, affecting their performance and battery life. Buzz Smith joins the discussion, sharing insights on how heat impacts EVs and offering practical tips for maintaining battery health. The episode also covers the growing trend of automakers adopting Tesla's charging standard, with Volkswagen and others joining the movement. Listeners will learn about charging strategies, the importance of battery preconditioning, and how to maximize range while keeping EVs cool. Plus, the hosts share automotive news and upcoming events.
Original notes
Ready to supercharge your knowledge about the electrifying world of EVs and charging technologies? Join us as we dissect the potential fusion of Tesla's North American charging standard with Volkswagen's Electrify America. We'll share insights into the Combined Charging System, the widely-used CCS connector, and Elon Musk's ambitious plans for a charging station infrastructure.
Have you ever considered how heat impacts your electric vehicle and its battery? From understanding how to help the electric grid by choosing when to charge, to the benefits of DC fast charging for long journeys, we leave no stone unturned. We'll also pit level two charging against DC fast charging, helping you to understand when and how to best use them. We'll also journey into the heart of EV charging systems. You'll get to know the V2L connector and its role in enabling outbound power from an EV.
We'll wrap up with a look into the upcoming auto events calendar - a must for any car enthusiast. You can always connect with us on platforms like Apple Podcast, Spotify, and many others. Don't miss out on our live broadcast every Saturday morning, 8a - 11aCT. So, grab your coffee and let's hit the road to explore the thrilling universe of EVs and charging technology together.
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Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast provider for the next episode of In Wheel Time Podcast and check out our live multiplatform broadcast every Saturday, 10a - 12nCT simulcasting on Audacy, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Twitch and InWheelTime.com.
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In Wheel Time Podcast: Your Go-To Automotive Talk Show
In Wheel Time Podcast | Automotive talk with Don Armstrong, Michael Marrs, and Jeff Dziekan
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