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People HATE to Be Sold, Yet They LOVE to Buy [RR 1067]
People HATE to Be Sold, Yet They LOVE to Buy [RR 1067]
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About this episode
Dutch Silverstein joins the podcast to discuss the dynamics of selling in the automotive industry, emphasizing that while people love to buy, they dislike being sold to. The conversation explores the importance of relationship-based selling versus transactional approaches, the need for better processes and systems in auto repair, and the challenges of licensing and proficiency in the industry. Dutch shares insights from his experience as a shop owner and pilot, advocating for a shift towards consultative selling that prioritizes customer agency and understanding.
Thanks to our Partners, NAPA Auto Care and NAPA TRACS
Watch Full Video Episode
Recorded Live at ASTA 2025, Dutch Silverstein delivers a powerful reframing of how the automotive industry can approach customer interaction—shifting from high-pressure sales tactics to a relationship-first model built on the idea that “People hate to be sold, yet they love to buy.
Advocates, Not Salespeople
Dutch’s relationship-based shop model stands in stark contrast to transactional sales environments.
No Salespeople:Dutch does not employ “salesmen,” he employs “advocates.”
Role of an Advocate:Advocates collaborate with customers to understand what they want for their vehicle and their long-term plans, then help design solutions that support those goals.
Eliminating Pressure:The shop enforces a strict “no pressure, ever” philosophy. There are no commissions, no sales quotas, no whiteboards, no competitive bonuses—removing any incentive that could create a conflict of interest.
The episode also dives into several controversial but important topics:
The need to revisittechnician licensing, with Dutch arguing current standards are “window dressing.”
Theflat-rate paradox, especially when contrasted with the younger generation’s desire for work-life balance rather than solely financial incentive.
Determining anoptimal labor ratein a way that supports sustainability and talent retention.
The Takeaway
The conversation reinforces that effective sales—better yet, advocacy—are rooted in trust. When customers feel supported rather than sold to, they embrace their decisions with confidence. This shift from selling to serving creates a healthier, more sustainable customer experience and business model.
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"As an example, I got to stock breaks at rotors because I want to really be the rock"
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Rotors, also known as brake discs, are the metal components that the brake pads clamp onto to create friction and slow the vehicle.
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"As an example, I got to stock breaks at rotors because I want to really be the rock"
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Brakes are the components that slow or stop a vehicle, typically consisting of pads or shoes that press against rotors (discs) to create friction.
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This is the Automotive Repair Podcast Network.
They've got the same people in the class all the time, every time they all get together and say, I saw Bobby and Joe, they were here last year, but we're not seeing many new faces, but I'm here with Dutch Silverstein and we're going to get back as soon as we thank our great sponsors.
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Dutch, how are you buddy?
Peachy, Dutch, you got your AAM from the association.
Yeah, I got it many, many years ago.
AAM Automotive.
AAM Auto Service.
Auto Service in Pineville, North Carolina.
That is no longer your business.
Yep, I sold out.
You sold out 26 years.
Yep, wow.
And of course, I've interviewed you in the past.
I think the whole world knows you were a pilot.
And every time I read an article from you, you write so well for wretch and wrench.
When I get on a plane and I talk about the lack of processes and systems in a business and I think about
if anyone would think about the airline industry and what it takes to get up and get down and stay and maintain that airplane,
why wouldn't we do processes and systems to make minute one and minute 100 experience for the client,
packed with great processes and systems because that's the only way airplanes work.
You think about it on average, it was 10,000 flights a day.
Think about how many of those flights wind up actually having an issue.
And I'm not talking about one where it's 10 minutes late or any of that or even the mechanical that actually crashes
or anything loss of life doesn't have.
Could you take 10,000 driving segments, be driving your car with the same record?
No, it wouldn't happen.
I mean, there's a reason it's deliberate, this system redundancies, training for proficiency,
all of the things that make it head and shoulders above anything else.
We got a vehicle that people depend on that they could get killed in if it's not working right or they're driving wrong.
And I'm not sure we stop to think about the power we have in the safety side of everything.
I think people take it for granted.
And part of that is the good engineering that comes out of the manufacturers.
Let's get credit what credit is doing.
They is some really good engineering.
It's not all encompassing, but there is some good basic engineering that comes out of these vehicles.
Right?
And they're very tolerant of any carelessness in capacity or neglect.
And that's a bad thing because people become at that point very lazy.
And it's routine.
It becomes very routine instead of torquing wheels down.
There you go.
They just hammer them.
It's three agadugas.
I know.
And a real good policy in any shop would be check.
Somebody yells out check in the guy in the next bay or the assigned checker comes in and goes all the way around and checks them on.
Yeah, doing true QC.
Just the airline.
You had a checklist.
Somebody had to sign off on each step.
Each operation had to get checked off.
I mean, there was system redundancy that was there.
And why wouldn't we on luggins?
Because why should I bother?
They've been doing it since, you know, I started in 73, right?
And nobody.
How many times the wheel off that you've ever seen?
Nobody.
It's done because I'm getting paid flat rate.
I got to get this car out of here.
And if I set the torque wrench up and tech tighten them down, lower the car, re-tighten them.
Then I have to tell the people, come back in 50 miles so I can recheck it again.
But I'm not getting paid for that recheck.
That's why it don't happen.
Look, you're writing for ratchet and wrench every month.
Go to the back fold, the back page, right?
The back page.
You've written some really incredible articles.
And if you invest the time to read what Dutch is writing, agree with him or not.
They're very profound.
They've got strong messages.
And sometimes you do.
And I'm not saying political, but you've got a particular stance on a lot of the issues.
I think it helps us stretch our thinking.
Sometimes we get way too focused on stuff.
Some of the articles of just recent.
And I want to mention them because I want to pick his brain on a few of these.
It's time to revisit licensing, the flat rate paradox, the illusion of transparency, which is really cool.
Labor rates, the other side of the coin.
You also did five ways to keep healthy finances and recognizing our customers' agency.
Damn.
And I didn't know where you were going with that till the second paragraph where you described what agency was.
Yeah, that's the reason because it's one of the words people hear.
But nobody says, what is he talking about?
Is he mean by agency?
You know, because that's a word that if you look up in the dictionary and online,
it shows that the usage is very, very low until the last few years.
And then it's become you're seeing it on television, you're hearing it on the radio.
You know, or in podcasts.
And people are saying, okay, what is talking about?
I'm here in the word.
So I thought it necessary to include the definition of what agency was.
And so I read it, a fundamental principle of interpersonal relationships and ethical behavior.
It acknowledges and honors the inherent right of individuals to make decisions about their own lives, bodies and experiences.
Yeah.
We're kind of in charge of that when they come in, giving them, we need to explain to them why and let them decide.
The whole point is for me, and this separates what we did at our shop and what I believe that relationship based shops,
how we differ from based transactional shops, is I don't employ salesmen in the shop.
I employ advocates.
Right.
And an advocate says, let's sit down and talk about what it is that you want for your car.
Tell me about what your plans are.
And based on that, we're going to devise solutions for problems that you have.
And ways that we can help you meet your vehicle goals.
Now, some people say, well, Dutch, what you're doing is you're engaging in consultative selling.
I'm not selling anything as I see it.
Yes, I could see how that readily fit into their description.
But there's no pressure in any of my shop at any time from any individual to sell anything because we didn't have a commission structure.
So there was no inherent conflict of interest.
There was no arbitrary whiteboard with a sales figure on daily sales figure that said today we have to earn this much.
And there was no competition that's saying Joe turned this many hours and Steve turned this many hours.
Fostering the competition and no bonuses, no spifts, none of that crap.
I didn't have it.
You know, you said consultative selling, which is the exact opposite of transactional.
And it really is relationship selling.
I mean, the person came to you because they had a great relationship and they want you.
People love to be sold.
And I think we love to convince people to come our way.
But I still love the idea of relationship selling instead of consultative.
Neil Rockman wrote a book years and years ago on this.
I'm going to guess 27 years ago.
And in our company, we got it.
We all read it.
We brought it to our salespeople because we just needed them to kick it up another level and really care about what they're doing.
And for their clients, you're not arguing about time to revisit licensing.
Can I just say one thing?
It's okay.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, no, I'm sorry.
You can't absolutely.
You can't.
So the point that I'm going to disagree with you on this.
All right.
People love to buy.
They don't like to be sold.
Yeah.
You know, you're right.
You're right.
I take that back.
Thank you.
We love to buy.
People love to buy.
We love to buy.
It comes with a lot of things, but people don't like to feel that they've been sold.
And you know what?
I will stand corrected because every time I would ever have to go buy a car, I couldn't stand being sold it.
Yeah.
That's my decision.
Go see the finance guy.
No.
No, you're going to have to put handcuffs on me and put me in a two-wheeled card.
And you're going to have to push me in there.
And I said, and then my wife is going to go get duct taped for my mouth because I'm not going to say anything.
I hate it to be sold from the financing guy.
Yeah.
F and I.
Yep.
Carb, you don't understand.
I just know I understand.
You're going to try to take my payment up another $300 a month.
No.
Okay.
So there's the definition of being sold.
Yeah.
Very good.
Licensing.
Yeah.
Golly.
You bring up a great point in the article about Canada, Michigan.
Wow.
I got a license tech.
How long ago was that?
Well, 25 years.
Because you do it once in Canada.
You're done.
Yeah.
Almost kind of the same in Michigan.
You know, God bless the Michigan laws.
But it hasn't been looked at.
And I think it's 45 or 48 years.
It's really window dressing.
It's an illusion.
It's like security and airport.
It's the illusion of security.
This is the illusion of competency and the illusion of someone care.
It's not legitimate.
All right.
There's no testing for proficiency that exists.
Stop.
That's it.
Episode over.
Man.
I'll tell you.
The proficiency thing is, I think, the biggest part.
If we can get proficiency testing going.
Sort of viable real legit stuff.
We don't need licensing.
We just need the consumer to look for that certification assessment
and owners to hire people that do that.
As he was started for all this reason.
Because no one wanted the government involved.
The government's not involved.
We're in chaos as tracing talks to her friends all the time
about our industry.
And the consumer's clueless.
Absolutely.
She asks friends.
Do you think the people who work in your car have to be licensed?
She's never gotten.
I know.
Yes.
They all believe.
And then she asks in the question,
do you know that we have technicians working in our shops?
No, they're mechanics.
And that's my big push of changing that language in the industry.
So when we talk about licensing,
where do you think it will ever go?
It has to start with a public relations campaign.
I mean, we have to push this as hard as we've ever pushed for change
in any industry.
It's absolutely necessary because you have to create the demand.
You have to be able to show the features and benefits
in using our terminology of having your car service
by a qualified professional to do them.
So many has to look and say,
that's what I want.
I have a choice.
That's what I want.
And then at this point,
now is a great time because guys that are my age,
dying and relieving the field,
which leaves it since it's going to be fewer.
There's 174,000 repair shops,
not including auto body or dealerships.
And that number is continuing the latest figure as of March 2024,
the Bureau Labor Statistics.
174,000.
Again, not including body shops and dealerships.
Is it including the franchise?
Yes.
It includes the franchise base.
And that number is diminishing because more and more guys
are leaving the field.
So now with them leaving the field,
this now leaves a golden opportunity for techs
who want to start their own business.
And for making changes because there's fewer people
that need to be affected.
Yeah.
Get on the caravan, right?
Yeah.
Food.
So you don't have to test as many because there aren't as many.
That's right.
You don't have to worry about how we're going to fit this in the schedule.
We don't have the auditors necessary to do this.
There's something you have to consider,
but there are less of them.
Right?
Less people that needed to be audited or monitored for proficiency.
Right.
It has to start somewhere.
Do you think our industry wants this?
No.
Absolutely not.
It's scared to death of it.
Absolutely.
Who could control it?
What are the parameters?
It sounds like it could be a 15 year project to try to make it happen.
You know, realistically, I don't think you're wrong.
It's not going to happen overnight.
Anything related to change is not going to happen overnight.
And if you keep the government out, then who does it?
And will this quote-unquote licensing agency have any cloud or meaning
with the people?
Or will...
And again, I love ASC.
I think they're a great organization.
We have to learn from what happened in not making an ASC certification
to have meaning to the public.
And it's almost like today as he be doing this stuff,
I would love to be in a think tank with a bunch of people.
You know, four or five different groups in different rooms,
whiteboard, post-it notes, and you come together with your top five best ideas.
I would love to see something like that, a flow chart or a responsibility chart
or what should...
I'd love to see what it shapes up to be because there's a million different ideas.
Good, bad, ugly.
But wouldn't it be neat to get it with one objective?
Let's figure out licensing and what it means and how it works and how we make it stick.
That would be great.
But, you know, right now there's a better chance that I could become pope
and my rabbi isn't going to go for it.
I know that because ultimately, the problem is too many people in our industry
only care about themselves.
Someone far wiser than I said, we each navigate by the start of a light self interest.
Our vision is limited at times to inches in front of our notes.
And if we can't see the immediate effects of it, we don't want to do it.
So you have to wait for a new generation to come in with whose value system is a little different.
And the generation of people that are coming up now, they can wrap their arms around that type
because they are more cohesive in their vision.
They're more than just money motivated.
They like social causes.
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The flat rate paradox you talked about Gen Z. I thought it was very astute.
Yeah, there's a reason for why they thought that the American dream for them is beyond their reach.
No longer applies to them. Oh my god, I read that about the American dream. See, I grew up.
I know how well if we're close in age, but you're a boomer, right? Yeah, of course I'm good.
We grew up with, oh, I thought.
Anyway, no, really, that's it. I'm in my 20s. I just looked like crap.
Yeah, all right. I was flatter.
Okay.
I love to do that to people.
You really think you'll, okay?
I'm older than dirt. You look up dirt and addiction area and here's my picture.
We were told that the American dream is out there for you if you want it.
It's exactly right.
And today, again, you got to buy a house. You got to have a family, okay?
You know, one and a half cars, one to two and a half children.
Today, no, there's supplies.
No one's teaching it. No one's emulating it. No one's doing it.
This generation more than any of that we're all seeing.
You know, at this point, despair is a constant component.
Wow.
They lament that their parents are going to live the life that they will never be able to live, right?
And the single largest demographic with money in the country is not spumors.
We maintain over 70% of the wealth.
And they lament the fact that they're never going to be able to achieve that which we achieve.
But in that, they are wrong.
But because they're so discouraged, so disillusioned, so disheartened,
that the way things now exist, they won't even try.
The effort that they're willing to commit is really minuscule.
They've just surrendered to defeatism.
That really bothers me.
You know what I mean?
It's good for my daughter because she's a hustler.
She will go out. She's a worker.
She was raised with my work ethic.
So she goes out and she works.
At this point, she started years old.
She owns her own home, right?
This is what she's been able to achieve the American dream that I achieved in that work.
Anna.
Anna met her yesterday.
My Anna from A&M.
A&M is Anna and Max and 30 years old and she owns me.
Has since she was born.
Well, so does my daughter.
And she's sitting to my left.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was a point in time where she was working for me and now I'm working for her.
Yes, it.
And every day gets worse.
If Anna had indicated to me, she said,
I want the business.
I would have just given her the business and said,
have at it.
I'll be here to help you in any way I can and make sure you rent payments on time.
But she wasn't interested.
All right.
She's into finance and she works for one of the larger banks in the area in the commercial real estate division.
Oh, nice.
Interesting.
So this whole Gen Z thing is just take some time or I turned around economy or more job opportunities.
I think the scares the crap out of me is everyone's talking about this AI thing and how many jobs it's going to replace.
And again, I don't know if it's going to affect us to the eighth degree unless we let it.
You have to choose with up to 25% of all at right now the latest statistics that I read.
Up to 25% of the information that you receive online by using chat GPT or any of the others is wrong.
Yeah.
It's flat out wrong.
So the fact is the base it's using that for that information doesn't maintain critical thinking because it's not taught.
I'm afraid of the verbatim use of it without applying logic, common sense direction strategy.
Is this me?
I mean, you ask something and it's coming back at you and you're trying to take ownership of that information you bought.
Wow, I never thought of it like that.
Well, maybe you shouldn't and you should ask maybe another AI platform or rephrase the question.
You remember when we were coming up as a kid in the 60s right question us already.
You think I'm that old?
Yeah.
Okay.
Just checking.
What do you want me to lie?
No, you're 29.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Wait a minute.
You guys got to go listen to the episode with Dutch and Carmen.
They told us 29.
Right question us already.
You remember that?
Yes.
Okay.
Oh my gosh.
So question us.
Don't trust anyone over 30.
Right.
Remember.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now go online to an impersonal machine and he gives information and oh, it's a hundred percent correct.
Right.
What happened to don't question?
That's interesting as hell.
Let me see if I can cross a reference that.
Let me.
Well, nobody wants to do the homework because we're intellectually lazy.
Well, wait.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Yeah.
No, I'm talking about stuff that I feel that I believe that I would do if asked.
And maybe we're arguing philosophy.
We're arguing opinions.
The facts don't care about your opinions.
I'm so mean.
No.
No.
No.
It is an extremely profound statement.
The facts don't care.
The facts don't care about your opinion.
Unless I can prove that my opinion is factual.
Yeah.
So facts don't care about your feelings.
Now, if you have an opinion, what is your opinion based on?
Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean that I have to value it at all.
I may have read five different important facts and I've interpreted them into an opinion.
The wrong conclusion.
According to Dutch, not according to me.
Yeah, but I'm right.
You're wrong.
Oh, I've always known that.
The first time I met you don't ever try to tell me something.
I am listening to you.
I've heard your position.
I'm familiar with position.
You were wrong.
The first time I heard it.
And you were wrong again.
But I'm not biased or anything.
Exactly.
I'm not opinionate.
Is that what people on social media pick fights with you?
I don't think they realize what they're doing is that I enjoy that as sport.
That really for me, I love to argue that I always knew that.
There are some people that don't know.
Let's talk about it.
Let's present this in information so that we can learn for a minute.
You know, 25 paragraphs later.
Yeah.
No.
I don't do that.
There are people that avoid confrontation.
Born and raised in the Bronx.
I don't avoid it.
I welcome it.
Please, when we're all done, let me tell you my Bronx story.
Yeah.
It's two weeks old.
And I have to share it with you.
Arthur Avenue.
Arthur.
Oh, Italian food.
Arthur Avenue.
Oh, my God.
The bread.
Oh, my God.
Ravioli.
The sausage.
The sausage.
Yeah.
Oh, you make a letter.
You make a letter.
You make me homesick.
All right.
What's a good Jewish boy like you hanging out on earth or there?
Because.
All right.
I'm going to tell you the truth.
Yeah.
Growing up in New York.
All right.
Get all the different groups that were around it.
The Irish, the Jews, the Italians, the Jamaicans, the Polish.
All of it.
The two groups that were most similar were the Italians and the Jews.
Yeah.
All right.
Because number one, Jewish grandmothers and Italian grandmothers were both five feet tall.
And they were about three and a half feet wide.
And when you got in front of them in the house, it was on the Emma Manjali.
Let's eat.
And it was food and food.
Oh, yeah.
Jewish grandmothers.
Fresh, fresh, always feeding, always feeding, right?
Okay.
So when the husband died because the husband would die before the wife, the grandmother would wear black.
And you couldn't tell looking at it unless one had a crucifix.
If that was a Jewish woman or that was exactly right.
An Italian father and a Jewish father were never ashamed to kiss their sons in public.
He didn't see the Irish do that.
He didn't see the Jamaicans do that.
Yeah.
So the similarities between the two groups that were family focused, faith focused.
Oh, yeah.
I grew up with a tie.
Wow.
Oh, yeah.
We went to school together.
My best friend was Paul Manana.
I've known him now for 60 something.
Yeah.
I mean, almost nothing now.
So this is just the way it is.
So when I tell you that I grew up with him.
Oh, yeah.
You kidding me?
I would love to go to my heart to have a new one.
I wait a minute.
I just hit a button.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
Oh, my God.
I won't tell the story on air.
But after we're done, I have to tell you the story.
Or should I tell it on air?
All right.
Yeah.
So a G trillion.
Right.
Character.
Yeah.
G trillion becomes over the house to spend the weekend with his.
He brought his camper up just two weekends ago.
Gary.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And great friends of ours.
And she says we've been talking about this for about a year.
He makes gravy.
He doesn't make sauce.
He makes gravy.
All these meats, he makes the bourgeois and all this.
And we say, when are we going to have your gravy?
He says, I'm going to have to come up and cook at your house.
So he does.
It's about three o'clock in the morning.
We just showed him the feast that she made.
But before he got on Wednesday, he goes to Arthur Avenue.
And he buys everything.
He's going to put in the sauce in the bourgeois.
He brings the sausage.
He brings the fresh ravioli.
And the, uh, what's the mac?
What's the mac?
The covetelli.
He brings it all up.
He's got it all in his refrigerator.
There's an ice box in his trailer and he gets up at three o'clock in the morning on Saturday.
And he starts making gravy and the meatballs.
And we had this feast.
We drank so much wine.
So you mentioned Arthur Avenue.
She says there ain't no other place to go.
No, he's right.
No other place to go.
He's absolutely right.
And I'm sorry.
I want to go down to the friend of mine asked me and says, I'm going down to New York.
Where should I go to eat?
You know one of the places I recommended.
I said, now do you want to go tourists?
You want to go not tourists?
What do you want to go to Queens?
Where do you want to go?
Is the Chinese food that you want to tie in?
What do you want?
And he told me.
I'm like, okay.
So now we're going to talk about Jewish delis.
And we're going to talk about Wohop for Chinese.
Okay.
And we're going to wind up talking about now.
There was a restaurant that this no longer a business.
I wish he was still around just so that he could see it.
After 77 years, they finally had to close.
But yeah.
Now I was thinking that maybe you were going to tell me you guys went to the Feastage Sengenero.
Are you talking about the Feast?
Is it in Broxers, or is it in New York?
It's in New York.
We were there.
We went there.
Because we went with G to C-E-E-L-O.
And Madison Square.
And he took us through Little Italy there.
And there was this big feast going on.
All the lights over.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh my God.
There was like, you know, 10,000 people there.
They shut the street now.
Yeah, they do.
Yeah.
Amazing.
It's right.
You're right, Tracy.
Wow.
Sengenero.
Feastage.
Sengenero.
Sengenero.
Okay.
That's the way I've learned a pronounced one.
I'm just coming up.
I could be murdering the light.
No, it's alright.
Jews in the Italians.
Yeah.
It's in common with them.
Food.
The Mediterranean.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, everything about it was.
There was no appreciable difference except for, you know, like I said.
Grandparents, the family values.
Everything was the same.
You know, I mean Mrs.
Mennon and Paul and I.
Story time.
She used to call us Pete and repeat.
Okay, because we were together.
All right.
So if Paul misbehaved, he got a crackwood with his spoon.
I got a crackwood.
It wouldn't spoon too because I was with him.
And I must have had something to do with it.
There was no separation, you know.
All right.
And yet my mother, there was an expression in it.
Apachim tochus get in cup.
Which means a shot in the fanny go straight to the head.
And that was the same thing that was shared in the.
Oh, yeah.
No, it was bones in the Italians had a saying about getting the Boston.
And the Boston was the long rolling pin that they would, you know, flower out the dough.
And the Boston.
I hit you with the Boston.
Anyway, what a wild little.
Yeah, we have to go to a banquet tonight.
We're going to have a guest speaker named Jim Knight.
I've met Jim Knight.
I've read his book.
I've heard him speak.
And I'm interviewing him.
It'll be great.
Let's talk about labor.
It's a little bit.
Okay.
There's so much going on.
I mean, I think there's a lot of progressive shops that are really changing how they're paying
their people.
There's guarantees or salary plus.
There's all kinds of bonus programs.
I do know that there's one thing for sure that's just to be fair.
There's one thing for sure is just to be very careful with the wage tax law on how you're
doing this stuff.
I think you really need to sit down with at least a good CPA figure out how you apply bonuses
to time and overtime.
It's not easy today, but you got to be careful of that.
You think in the independent world, flat rates going away.
I think that its use is certainly diminishing because in order to be a really good flat rate
tech, you have to be money motivated.
That has to be your driver.
You have to want to achieve a certain level of financial independence.
And you want to be money motivated.
With the younger techs that are coming in, they want to work life balance.
They're not necessarily money motivated.
And they want time off.
They want to be able to know that they have set hours.
They look for a certain degree of security that they have.
Some of them, a large percentage, certainly more than we'd like to admit.
Look at the prospect of work itself begrudgingly.
They would rather be on the net and become an influencer or pursue stuff that's going
to get rich quick.
You know, they want to become famous so that they can afford the lifestyle that they want
to have without putting in the work because they don't understand what the larger picture is.
Slow and steady wins the race.
The overwhelming majority of the time.
There was a fellow from England who came over and he bet $138,000.
Many years ago in Vegas on let and he won.
Now we know that we can say if you want to make money, you can go to Vegas.
But all the lights, the glitter, the glamour and all the Vegas was all built by losers.
So if you really wanted to win.
Yes, you could go to Vegas.
You could do the influencer do you could try to go that route.
You might like in Vegas.
You might win by spinning that wheel.
But I guarantee you if you do the work over the long haul.
If you budget live right, you'll succeed.
Yeah.
The odds of the likelihood if you're going to succeed to reach the outcome you desire are far
greater than you become.
It's like, you know, watching a kid who's talented play basketball.
What are the odds that he's actually going to wind up in the NBA?
Not great.
No, not great.
Thank you so much.
We talked about labor rates a little bit earlier, but I want to talk about labor rates.
There's a lot of coaches that will go out and say, listen, one of the most important things
we're going to do first at number one is raise your labor rate.
There's so many other things to look at.
Now, if the labor rate for the marketplace is low, there's room for improvement there.
There's so many other areas of the gross profit on parts and of course cost control.
You started to do some coaching, haven't you?
As a member of the other shop owners group.
Yeah.
We do mentoring, free mentoring.
That's right.
So it's too face, I'm not a member of their mentoring.
Mentor they have a group led by Adam Rath, wonderful human being, where they wind up doing that.
I do it separately on my own and my own schedule.
That about one on one.
We have a matter of fact, members that are here at this that ASIC paid for.
So here you have owners not making a lot of money, but who desperately need this training.
So the auto shop owner's group makes it so that their expenses are covered.
Nice.
Sometimes not completely, but the majority of which are covered in order to get here so that they can thrive and grow their list.
I would love to find out and I probably know the answer.
So what did you think of as the 2025?
It probably helped move their life.
Yeah.
No, it does you good.
You know, I work with these people one on one to help them.
And when you bring them in and they can see the larger community and see that they are not struggling alone.
But there are others that are in the same circumstance that they are.
It takes some of the pressure off.
Hey, I'm not by myself.
I'm not so bad that I'm the only person that's like this.
That is really, really powerful stuff to know that you're not by yourself.
When you talk to some people in the industry and you say, you know, have you looked at labor rates in your marketplace?
What is your labor rate?
Would you ever recommend that they make moves?
No, you absolutely did all the time.
The two popular methods for determining labor rate.
One I coined that I used for this and the other, the great automotive writer, Mitch Snyder.
Oh, God.
Yes, I know.
Right.
Called the Oreo method.
The Oreo method is you look up the street to your left.
That guy charges.
We're going to say $120 an hour.
The guy to your right charges $130.
So what are you going to charge?
You're right in the middle of $125.
That's the art.
Right.
The other method that I had is what we used to have on the airline, which is called T-lar.
For that looks about right.
We fly back from California at night.
You pick a heading.
Know the winds and you'd request T-lar direct.
So that at that point.
You're going to fly the distance from Los Angeles to Charlotte based on a heading and your cross referencing.
Your position based on the glow of the cities says you can go.
Instead of having moving from Nav-8 to Nav-8 or interpreting a route.
Remember, this was a while ago.
It was called the glow of the cities.
The glow of the city was too cool.
We used to turn the cockpit lights down on a clear night when the moon was out.
And we cross reference because you were given T-lar direct and you were flying coming back early in the morning.
Right.
You left Los Angeles west coast time and you're flying the red eye.
Yeah.
What were you flying?
707.
27.
200.
Really?
Yeah.
And the 7.
37.
3.
T-lar direct.
So you could enter in on the 300.
You could enter in on the FMC the route that you wanted to.
But, you know, it was just request T-lar direct.
Because the traffic at night at that hour was reduced by so much.
So T-luts with that stood about right.
You just picked a compass.
You're putting a compass heading and the plane is flying automatically.
No.
I'm taking it.
And it's flying according to the path that I set up based on that heading.
Right.
You never really take the controls on.
No.
No.
Sometimes you hand fly at the whole time.
Really?
Yeah.
It used to be a thrill.
Not really.
It's a good way to maintain proficiency.
Because when I transition to Airbus flying, see there's two different philosophies.
There's a Boeing philosophy, the Airbus philosophy.
The Boeing philosophy is the pilot flies the airplane.
The automation is there in order to reduce workload.
The Airbus philosophies.
The autopilot is there to fly the airplane.
And the pilot is there just to maintain that the inputs are correct.
What's the difference?
Well, the one is that pilot flies and the automation is there to assist.
Support.
Support.
The other is the airplane is there.
And the systems are going to fly the airplane.
You just got to make sure that it doesn't.
But with the Boeing, you could become Airbus strategy.
You either love the Airbus.
You hate the Airbus.
I hate the Airbus.
It's not a bad airplane.
It's just no Boeing.
If it ain't a Boeing, I ain't it going.
Damn.
Yeah, I did.
For pilots, love.
It's like Ford Chevy.
Right?
Yes.
Yeah, guys that love Chevy's no matter what.
Guys love Ford's.
Guys like me who love piloting Boeing airplanes.
Got it.
And then there are guys that love the Airbus because it's much less work.
And the automation does so much.
And I recall while you were a pilot, you were also mechanically.
Yes.
You were born at home?
Yeah.
The seven days a week for nine years because aviation is incredibly cyclical.
And you could lose your job at any time.
So I had a family and there was no way that I was going to let them down.
So I just worked.
You flew for US Air.
I flew for US Air.
Then they became American.
Back to labor.
Yeah.
You talked about the 80-20 rule in your article.
And it was the article from just June of 25.
So it's not that old.
Right.
It's the Ville Freito.
But he ate it on the radio.
It's the Ville Freito principle.
And I'm not sure we think enough about that in all the tasks that we do.
You got it figure.
What percentage is causing me problems?
What percentage gives me my greatest yield?
You want to maximize your greatest yield and eliminate the bottom 20% of the cost as
a lot of the stuff that gets in the way of us running a great company.
Yep.
And sometimes it's our people.
Yeah.
Or ourselves most of the time.
You chip up your own.
Sure.
So live the 80-20 principle.
Stop and do that.
You talked about a threshold of pain when we read a quote from the article.
This was defined as the point at which prices are raised until customers say no.
I believe that a point for many shops has been or very soon will be reached,
not by their own making.
And I have to tell you something.
I think that's a poor philosophy.
Am I right or wrong?
Wait for the threshold of pain to say no.
If you are a sales centric company as opposed to a relationship base,
then that is a way for you to test what the limits are.
You just continue to raise the price until such time as you meet sufficient resistance to the price
that you know would have backed it off just one point.
So many coaches and I've seen so many great presentations on these great spreadsheets.
I would like to make this much money on my million and a half dollars worth of business
and with all the formulas.
I efficiency is all the formulas.
It comes up with a labor rate.
Yep.
And if you're not there because that's your ultimate goal,
you can at least start setting goal steps to get there.
What bothers me about what happens in this?
And this is a result of owners that are lazy.
You got to understand that for automobile repair shop owners,
there's a certain sense of bitterness that is imbued.
Because we look at the trades and we see how much an electrician makes.
And we see how much a plumber makes.
And we see what some of the other trades make.
In proportion to what they have to spend to run their business.
A plumber has what a van and some tools etc.
So what does it have in 125,000 dollars and tools, equipment, etc.
You got guys that have more than that just in scan tools, right?
Their own personal toolbox has gotten more than that.
And yet when we look at the hierarchy of pay,
technicians are on the bottom and shop owners are on the bottom.
So what they do is raise your rates.
2025, raise your rates.
Make up for inflation.
Raise your rates.
The problem is if you ask them,
how did you arrive at the labor rate that you were now charging?
It was T-lar.
That looks about what?
They just picked it right out of the air.
And was it based on anything?
No, I didn't seem like a good figure.
How do you know it's enough?
But it's still not making any money.
I don't have any cash.
Yeah.
I've been raised at rates and I still don't have any money.
And I have a balance sheet.
What's a balance sheet?
You know, I don't understand this.
It couldn't be what PNL says.
I make a money.
Where's my money?
I don't know.
Where's my cash?
Where's my cash?
I don't know.
You got $8,000 worth of course that you haven't returned
in the last three months.
What do you think that is?
Don't get me started.
I'm going to tell you my opinion.
Yeah.
If you're a shop owner and you don't have an agreement
with every one of your suppliers,
and here is your philosophy.
You are going to participate my credit assurance program
that every new part that's on this shelf will be picked up
within two days by your driver.
He needs to come in and look.
And the course, if your driver doesn't consider
the party dropped off earlier in the day
and the next, are you sending them for my stuff?
Is the salesman looking?
I don't care how you figure it out.
But I won't have a core here that's any older than three days.
It's called credit assurance.
And you have better damn well.
Make sure I have no outstanding goods in my bill.
Anyway, I'm not ranting.
I'm so boxing, but it's not hard to sit down with a supplier
and say, here's my new policy on credits.
Assure me that I'm going to get my credits.
You shame on the owner that looks at the pile
$1,000 worth of course in there.
That's where his money is.
Yes.
I want about $30,000 worth of inventory.
Oh, please.
There's software out there.
As an example, I got to stock breaks at rotors
because I want to really be the rock
and I don't really want to wait for my supplier to...
Okay, great.
Do me a favor.
You're my number one supplier.
I buy my breaks at rotors from you.
Would you run me a list that says,
I'm going to turn, I'll stock,
things that will turn four times a year.
Take all the ones out,
put all the ones in,
and every six months I want you to run it
and I want you to balance my inventory.
Hello.
God, that was hard.
What's hard is that you're not going to find
the salesman who's going to be with the same company
four times a year.
Oh, please.
Don't do that to me.
I'm telling you.
How many years I was in business 26 years?
How many did you have?
Okay, at least 10.
Oh, sure.
Sorry.
And these were nice guys.
One and all.
But then what happened is
my primary supplier changed the pay structures.
Trying to become more competitive.
You know, so you have guys that were in a retire.
Okay.
Everybody deserved to retire.
And then a pay structure.
Well, when the guys are retired,
the people that were good
and being inside sales,
they got promoted.
Well, if they got promoted,
what happened to the guy that they brought in?
Oh, God.
I know.
Don't get me started.
I can go on this forever.
Maybe we should come back
and talk about that.
You're counting time.
You want supplier relationship.
Makes the reason you get catered
by Arthur.
Oh, my God.
I'm willing to pay.
What?
You kid me?
I'm willing to pay.
I'll pay the freight.
Tracy, St. Anne, my wife,
you, your wife,
G. Doreen.
Number one,
what a podcast episode
we'd get out of that thing, right?
Got to stop in an interview, everybody.
Emma, so nice that you see it.
Come in to my shop.
The thing is that
marrying Louise was the best thing
I've ever done in my life.
But the one who does the worst
Italian accent,
I've ever heard of my entire life.
And I can't introduce her
because if she decides she wants
to have some fun,
she'll try to do her Italian accent
and it's murder.
It's like chalk on a blackboard.
Is she really Italian?
No.
Not at all.
She spent time in Italy.
She spoke Italian.
But she has the single worst Italian accent.
Of any human being
on the face of the planet.
Well, then give her a week
and earth around her.
I might send her back
to the old era.
I love my wife.
You know, I'm like,
honey, don't listen to this.
I mean, nothing bad
and I told her,
don't sing and don't do accents.
Well, I am sure we have not
tackled every problem
that exists in our great industry.
But we did prop some cool thoughts.
Touch, thank you so much for being here.
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for being on board
to listen and learn
from the premiere automotive repair business podcast
Remarkable Results Radio.
Get your episodic education
on the ARPN Listing app
at automotiverepairpodcastnetwork.com.
Also, enjoy the podcast
on our Carm Capriotto YouTube channel.
Carm is all for advancing
the professional automotive service industry.
Until next time.
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