{"version":"1.1.0","producer":"fm.getcarcurious","layer":"official","episode":{"title":"Rethinking Criminal Consequences for Drivers Who Kill","url":"http://getcarcurious.com/episodes/rethinking-criminal-consequences-for-drivers-who-kill","audioUrl":"https://pdst.fm/e/traffic.libsyn.com/secure/waroncars/TWOC_06232026_E175_IanLoader_GENERAL.mp3?dest-id=807818","description":"What should happen to drivers who kill or injure someone with their car? Does a focus on punishment for \"reckless\" or \"dangerous\" drivers let everyone else off the hook and never force them to look at the larger harms of a transportation system based around personal car ownership? Those are the questions asked by Ian Loader, a professor of criminology at the University of Oxford, who argues that the law's focus on \"motonormative punishment\" is just another way of masking the larger problems caused by a car-dominant society. In a new study, Professor Loader proposes a vastly different way of thinking about criminal punishment organized around five harm reduction principles. Plus, is it really wrong for news outlets to write headlines like \"Pedestrian Hit By Car,\" or is there more to it than advocates are willing to admit?  ***Join The War on Cars on Patreon and listen to exclusive ad-free versions of regular episodes, Patreon-only bonus content, Discord access, invitations to live events, merch discounts and free stickers!*** SHOW NOTES: Read Professor Ian Loader's study,  \"Beyond Motonormative Punishment: On Road Safety as Environmental Regulation.\" Curious about motonormativity?  Listen to our episode with Dr. Ian Walker, who coined the term. Learn more about the concept in  our episode with Dr. Tara Goddard and  our episode with Marco te Brömmelstroet. Order our book,  Life After Cars: Freeing Ourselves from the Tyranny of the Automobile, out now from Thesis, an imprint of Penguin Random House. Buy a certified, pre-owned e-bike from  Upway and save $100 off any purchase of $800 or more with code TWOC100. Visit  Upway.co to get rolling. Thanks also to Cleverhood. Listen to this episode for the latest discount code and get 15% off the best rain gear for walking and cycling. TheWarOnCars.org  "},"annotations":[{"id":440202,"startTime":1458.33,"endTime":1463.21,"type":"car","title":"Dodge Ram","url":"/cars/dodge/ram","image":"https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/2019_Ram_1500_Bighorn%2C_rear_3.11.20.jpg","quote":"... road violence as we've seen people intentionally ram their cars in political protests or against cycli...","canonicalId":"car:dodge:ram","priority":0.7,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"The Dodge Ram is a full-size pickup truck built for hauling and everyday driving, and it’s commonly seen on roads and in work settings. In a discussion about road violence, it may come up because large trucks can be involved in serious incidents due to their size and mass. That makes it a relevant example when talking about how vehicle type can affect the severity of impacts.","simplifiedExplanation":"A Dodge Ram is a large pickup truck. It’s designed to carry heavy loads and tow things, but because it’s big and heavy, it can cause more damage if it’s used in a crash or an intentional collision.","imageAttribution":"Kevauto (CC BY-SA 4.0)","imageLicense":"CC BY-SA 4.0","imageSourceUrl":"https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2019_Ram_1500_Bighorn,_rear_3.11.20.jpg"}},{"id":440203,"startTime":2647.8,"endTime":2658.4,"type":"concept","title":"deliberative learning","url":"/glossary/deliberative-learning","quote":"learning in the context of road safety airline safety is one of the resources I draw upon to think about that and it's commonly said the reason why airlines are so safe is because when things go wrong people aren't trying to kind of blame the pilot they're just trying to figure out what what happened and stop it happening again","canonicalId":"concept:deliberative-learning","priority":0.75,"confidence":0.78,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Deliberative learning is the idea that after a serious incident, the system should focus on understanding causes and preventing repeats rather than assigning blame. In road safety, it means studying what led to crashes (human factors, design, enforcement, and context) so countermeasures can be applied.","simplifiedExplanation":"It means learning from accidents in a careful, constructive way. Instead of just blaming someone, you look at what caused the crash and change things so it doesn’t happen again."}},{"id":440204,"startTime":2654.1,"endTime":2677.9,"type":"concept","title":"road safety","url":"/glossary/road-safety","quote":"learning in the context of road safety airline safety is one of the resources I draw upon to think about that","canonicalId":"concept:road-safety","priority":0.55,"confidence":0.7,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Road safety is the set of strategies used to reduce crashes and protect people on public roads. Here it’s framed as something that can borrow methods from aviation safety—using incident learning and system-level prevention rather than individual blame.","simplifiedExplanation":"Road safety is how we reduce crashes and keep people from getting hurt on public roads. It includes things like better design, better rules, and learning from past crashes."}},{"id":440205,"startTime":2662.2,"endTime":2706.2,"type":"concept","title":"restorative justice","url":"/glossary/restorative-justice","quote":"the other way into this is restorative justice from a kind of criminal justice angle this and the next kind of principle are ways of saying well what when when stuff does go wrong when people are injured and killed on the road","canonicalId":"concept:restorative-justice","priority":0.8,"confidence":0.95,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Restorative justice is a criminal-justice approach that centers repairing harm and involving affected people—rather than focusing only on punishment. In this segment, it’s applied to road fatalities by gathering the people responsible (including manufacturers, engineers, police, and the driver) and the victims’ families to recognize harm and prevent future incidents.","simplifiedExplanation":"Restorative justice is about addressing the harm caused by an incident and helping people move forward. Instead of only punishing, it brings the right people together to acknowledge what happened and prevent it from happening again."}},{"id":440206,"startTime":2706.2,"endTime":2754.9,"type":"topic","title":"restoring public recognition of road deaths","url":"/glossary/restoring-public-recognition-of-road-deaths","quote":"one of the marks of the fact that we've normalized road death is that that doesn't happen anymore or if it does it happens informally like the victims families do it or the cycling groups put up a ghost bike","canonicalId":"topic:restoring-public-recognition-of-road-deaths","priority":0.35,"confidence":0.7,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"This segment argues that road fatalities have become normalized and that public acknowledgment—like memorials—could help “denormalize” road death. It’s presented as part of a restorative-justice style inquiry into what went wrong and how to prevent repeats.","simplifiedExplanation":"They’re arguing that society has gotten used to road deaths. The host suggests making it more public and visible—like memorials—so people treat it as a serious harm, not something that just happens."}},{"id":440207,"startTime":2736.3,"endTime":2743.1,"type":"term","title":"ghost bike","url":"/glossary/ghost-bike","quote":"or if it does it happens informally like the victims families do it or the cycling groups put up a ghost bike","canonicalId":"term:ghost-bike","priority":0.45,"confidence":0.9,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"A ghost bike is a memorial—often a white-painted bicycle—placed at or near a crash site to honor someone killed in traffic. It’s a grassroots form of public mourning and awareness, used when official memorials aren’t common.","simplifiedExplanation":"A ghost bike is a memorial left near a road where someone was killed. People place a white bicycle there to remember them and draw attention to the danger."}},{"id":440208,"startTime":2754.9,"endTime":2771.7,"type":"concept","title":"airline industry","quote":"it's also it would have a function akin to what goes on in the airline industry we're trying to say the ways in which these kinds of cars are commonly advertised as being kind of speed machines","canonicalId":"concept:airline-industry","priority":0.6,"confidence":0.62,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"The airline industry is used as an analogy for how safety systems learn from mistakes. The segment contrasts aviation’s incident-response culture (figure out what happened and prevent recurrence) with how road incidents are often handled.","simplifiedExplanation":"They’re using airlines as an example of how safety can be improved. The idea is that when something goes wrong, the focus is on learning and preventing it from happening again."}},{"id":440209,"startTime":2777.3,"endTime":2782.89,"type":"concept","title":"mobile phone distraction","url":"/glossary/mobile-phone-distraction","quote":"it's perfectly possible there may be occasions where someone said look the driver was just staring at his mobile phone but and that","canonicalId":"concept:mobile-phone-distraction","priority":0.4,"confidence":0.78,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Mobile phone distraction refers to drivers using or looking at a phone while driving, which can divert attention from the road and increase crash risk. The segment suggests that some incidents may involve drivers staring at a mobile phone, and that prevention should consider this possibility.","simplifiedExplanation":"This means looking at or using a phone while driving. It takes your eyes and attention off the road, which makes crashes more likely."}},{"id":440210,"startTime":2787.1,"endTime":2798.6,"type":"concept","title":"environmental one what it was in this system in this layout that produced this death","quote":"there are technology fixes that could solve that problem such as some sort of tech where you disable your phone all but the most necessary features let's say maps or whatever it is while you're driving the tech companies are perfectly capable of creating something where it is impossible for you to use your text your messaging while you're driving so even there","canonicalId":"concept:environmental-one-what-it-was-in-this-system-in-this-layout-that-produced-this-death","priority":0.65,"confidence":0.6,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"The speaker is framing deadly crashes as outcomes of the “road system” (vehicle + driver + environment + layout), not just the driver’s actions. This aligns with safety engineering approaches that look for contributing factors in the driving environment and vehicle interaction.","simplifiedExplanation":"They’re saying a crash usually isn’t caused by one thing alone. Instead, they want to look at the whole setup—like the road layout and how the car and driving conditions interact—to understand why it happened and how to prevent it next time."}},{"id":440211,"startTime":2847.2,"endTime":2858.0,"type":"term","title":"Apple CarPlay","url":"/glossary/apple-carplay","quote":"and I mean that's a perfect example of what you've just I mean apple car play shows you how many text messages you have and there's that little red dot with the number in","canonicalId":"term:apple-carplay","priority":0.55,"confidence":0.9,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Apple CarPlay is a smartphone-to-car interface that mirrors certain phone functions onto the vehicle’s infotainment screen. In this context, it’s used to illustrate how messaging notifications (like text counts) can be visually “beckoning” while you’re driving.","simplifiedExplanation":"Apple CarPlay lets you connect your iPhone to your car so you can see and use some phone features on the car’s screen. The point here is that it can show things like text-message alerts while you’re driving, which can tempt people to look away from the road."}},{"id":440212,"startTime":2864.6,"endTime":2874.4,"type":"term","title":"unsafe at any speed","url":"/glossary/unsafe-at-any-speed","quote":"when these inquiries take place and we have experience with this because 1965 Ralph Nader unsafe at any speed what did that book show that there were steering columns that weren't collapsing during car crashes","canonicalId":"term:unsafe-at-any-speed","priority":0.35,"confidence":0.85,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"“Unsafe at any speed” is the title of Ralph Nader’s influential book that criticized car safety shortcomings. In the segment, it’s referenced to support the idea that regulation can force redesigns to improve crash outcomes.","simplifiedExplanation":"“Unsafe at any speed” is a famous safety book by Ralph Nader. In this discussion, it’s used as an example of how safety problems in cars led to changes in design through regulation."}},{"id":440213,"startTime":2869.6,"endTime":2886.1,"type":"term","title":"steering columns","url":"/glossary/steering-columns","quote":"what did that book show that there were steering columns that weren't collapsing during car crashes that were impaling drivers and what happened the car companies through regulation had to redesign those columns so that they would collapse in the event of a crash","canonicalId":"term:steering-columns","priority":0.6,"confidence":0.9,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"A steering column is the shaft and housing that connects the steering wheel to the steering mechanism. In crash safety discussions, steering columns are designed to collapse in a controlled way so they don’t shove into the driver during a collision.","simplifiedExplanation":"The steering column is the part that connects your steering wheel to the steering system. In serious crashes, safety design aims to have it collapse so it’s less likely to drive into the driver."}},{"id":440214,"startTime":2905.4,"endTime":2918.61,"type":"concept","title":"regulate driver cars not how you punish individuals human drivers","url":"/glossary/regulate-driver-cars-not-how-you-punish-individuals-human-drivers","quote":"this for me is the practical payoff of treating the problem of road and safety as a question of how you regulate driver cars not how you punish individuals human drivers the starting point","canonicalId":"concept:regulate-driver-cars-not-how-you-punish-individuals-human-drivers","priority":0.7,"confidence":0.85,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"This is a “systems” approach to road safety: instead of focusing on individual blame after a crash, you change vehicle design, road design, and rules so crashes are less likely or less severe. The idea is that human error is expected, so the system should be engineered to reduce harm.","simplifiedExplanation":"This is arguing that road safety should focus on fixing the whole system—like car design and rules—rather than mainly punishing the driver after the fact. The goal is to make it harder for mistakes to turn into deadly outcomes."}},{"id":440215,"startTime":2957.9,"endTime":2963.6,"type":"concept","title":"transformative justice","url":"/glossary/transformative-justice","quote":"to borrow a term from the kind of transformative justice movement in the US as elsewhere that I think bad driving should have consequences it need necessarily have punishment","canonicalId":"concept:transformative-justice","priority":0.45,"confidence":0.85,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Transformative justice is a justice philosophy that focuses on changing the conditions that lead to harm, not just punishing the person. In this segment, the host uses it to argue that dangerous driving should have consequences, but not necessarily through traditional punishment-first approaches.","simplifiedExplanation":"Transformative justice is an approach to justice that tries to prevent harm from happening again. Instead of only punishing someone, it focuses on changing what led to the harm in the first place."}},{"id":440216,"startTime":2963.6,"endTime":2970.5,"type":"concept","title":"disassembling the dangerous actant","url":"/glossary/disassembling-the-dangerous-actant","quote":"the idea of disassembling the dangerous actant looks something like this that there is a a combination of human and object that has proven itself to be demonstrably dangerous","canonicalId":"concept:disassembling-the-dangerous-actant","priority":0.5,"confidence":0.75,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"“Disassembling the dangerous actant” is a framing idea: treat a harmful event as involving both a person and the vehicle/system they act through. The segment argues that because the “hybrid” (human + object) is what makes the act dangerous, the response should include safety interventions aimed at stopping repeat incidents.","simplifiedExplanation":"This is a way of thinking about a dangerous crash as involving both the driver and the car/technology involved. The point is that fixing the problem may require safety actions that reduce the chance of the same kind of harm happening again."}},{"id":440217,"startTime":3006.9,"endTime":3022.1,"type":"term","title":"license suspension and revocation","url":"/glossary/license-suspension-and-revocation","quote":"the way I cash this out is to say that we should make license suspension and revocation a much more prevalent and commonly utilized way in which we respond to to risk and danger on the road","canonicalId":"term:license-suspension-and-revocation","priority":0.55,"confidence":0.9,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"License suspension and revocation are legal actions that remove a driver’s permission to drive. In road-safety policy, they’re used as a risk-control tool—aimed at preventing repeat dangerous driving—rather than focusing only on criminal punishment after a conviction.","simplifiedExplanation":"This means the government can take away your right to drive. Suspension is a temporary stop; revocation is a longer or permanent removal. The idea here is to use that to prevent dangerous driving from happening again."}},{"id":440218,"startTime":3034.1,"endTime":3039.4,"type":"term","title":"motor normativity","url":"/glossary/motor-normativity","quote":"justices have found themselves very reluctant to take people's driving license often for all sorts of reasons to do with motor normativity","canonicalId":"term:motor-normativity","priority":0.4,"confidence":0.7,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Motor normativity is the idea that driving is treated as the default “normal” way to participate in society. The segment claims judges may hesitate to remove licenses because doing so is seen as socially extreme—potentially worse than jail—rather than as a proportionate safety measure.","simplifiedExplanation":"This means society treats driving as the normal, expected thing people do. The argument is that judges may avoid taking licenses away because it’s viewed as cutting someone off from normal life."}},{"id":440219,"startTime":3090.3,"endTime":3095.7,"type":"term","title":"black boxes","url":"/glossary/black-boxes","quote":"we can act on the vehicle that there's all kinds of things that we can do to vehicles to make them less dangerous we can put black boxes in them","canonicalId":"term:black-boxes","priority":0.6,"confidence":0.8,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"“Black boxes” in cars usually refers to event data recorders that log vehicle and crash-related information. The segment uses them as an example of onboard technology that can support safety and accountability after incidents.","simplifiedExplanation":"In cars, “black boxes” are devices that record what happened during a crash or other event. They can store data that helps investigators understand the situation."}},{"id":440220,"startTime":3095.7,"endTime":3100.3,"type":"term","title":"breath test","url":"/glossary/breath-test","quote":"we can put black boxes in them we can put technology in them that means they can't be started without passing a breath test for alcohol as Peter Norton also points out","canonicalId":"term:breath-test","priority":0.75,"confidence":0.9,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"A breath test is a roadside or legal screening that measures alcohol in a person’s breath to estimate blood alcohol content. In the context of cars, it’s being used as an example of an interlock-style technology that prevents starting the vehicle unless the driver passes.","simplifiedExplanation":"A breath test checks whether a driver has been drinking by measuring alcohol in their breath. The idea mentioned here is that the car could refuse to start unless the driver passes that check."}},{"id":440221,"startTime":3100.3,"endTime":3106.2,"type":"term","title":"speed governor","url":"/glossary/speed-governor","quote":"started without passing a breath test for alcohol as Peter Norton also points out the speed governor was an available form of technology back in the 1920s","canonicalId":"term:speed-governor","priority":0.7,"confidence":0.9,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"A speed governor is a control system that limits a vehicle’s maximum speed. The host is pointing out that this kind of speed-limiting tech existed as far back as the 1920s, and today it can be more sophisticated with modern sensors and software.","simplifiedExplanation":"A speed governor is a device that caps how fast a vehicle can go. It’s like a built-in speed limit that prevents the car from exceeding a set maximum."}},{"id":440222,"startTime":3106.2,"endTime":3117.2,"type":"term","title":"intelligence-based speed assistance","url":"/glossary/intelligence-based-speed-assistance","quote":"there are now forms of intelligence-based speed assistance that can tie cars to the prevailing speed limit in the environment","canonicalId":"term:intelligence-based-speed-assistance","priority":0.65,"confidence":0.85,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Intelligence-based speed assistance refers to driver-assistance systems that use data (like GPS and road-sign information) to help manage vehicle speed. In this segment, it’s described as technology that can “tie cars to the prevailing speed limit” in the driving environment.","simplifiedExplanation":"This is a modern safety feature that helps control your speed using information about the road. The goal is to keep the car closer to the posted speed limit automatically or with guidance."}},{"id":440223,"startTime":3169.3,"endTime":3175.8,"type":"concept","title":"moto normativity","quote":"I think a lot of this comes down again to moto normativity you know we had an issue as safe street campaigners and activists here in that we would find that our former mayor bill de Blasio was very much in favor of speed cameras red light cameras","canonicalId":"concept:moto-normativity","priority":0.35,"confidence":0.55,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"“Moto normativity” is a concept describing how certain norms and assumptions about “normal” road behavior shape policy and public attitudes. In this segment, it’s used to explain why some speed-enforcement measures are welcomed while others that reduce driver privileges are resisted.","simplifiedExplanation":"This phrase is about how people think about what “normal” driving should look like. The host is saying that those expectations affect whether people accept safety rules like cameras versus rules that take away things drivers rely on."}},{"id":440224,"startTime":3182.7,"endTime":3188.6,"type":"term","title":"speed cameras","url":"/glossary/speed-cameras","quote":"our former mayor bill de Blasio was very much in favor of speed cameras red light cameras things like that which was great","canonicalId":"term:speed-cameras","priority":0.25,"confidence":0.9,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Speed cameras are automated enforcement systems that detect speeding and issue citations. The segment contrasts them with other measures that would more directly restrict driver behavior or space, like changes to parking or road access.","simplifiedExplanation":"Speed cameras are cameras that automatically catch cars going faster than allowed. They’re used to ticket drivers for speeding."}},{"id":440225,"startTime":3182.7,"endTime":3188.6,"type":"term","title":"red light cameras","url":"/glossary/red-light-cameras","quote":"our former mayor bill de Blasio was very much in favor of speed cameras red light cameras things like that which was great","canonicalId":"term:red-light-cameras","priority":0.25,"confidence":0.9,"source":"hybrid-fuzzy+gpt-5.4-nano","data":{"explanation":"Red light cameras monitor intersections to detect vehicles that enter after the light turns red. In the episode’s argument, they’re grouped with speed cameras as enforcement tools that some people accept more readily than measures that reduce drivers’ privileges.","simplifiedExplanation":"Red light cameras watch intersections and ticket drivers who run a red light. They’re meant to discourage dangerous crossing when the light is red."}}],"speakers":[{"id":"s1","name":"Doug Gordon","role":"host"},{"id":"s2","name":"Sarah Goodyear","role":"host"}],"transcripts":[{"url":"http://getcarcurious.com/episodes/rethinking-criminal-consequences-for-drivers-who-kill/transcript.vtt","type":"text/vtt"}]}