Rivals and stars of the season so far – with Jolyon Palmer + James Hinchcliffe

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Do you think George is now going to be treating Kimmy a little differently? George has to be a little bit more cutthroat.

I still believe he's the favourite. I still think he's got the best chance.

But there is an element of like, well, hang on, Kimmy is stepping up and you never know how these things go.

Toto's belief in himself and his ability to spot talent relies on Kimmy being successful.

But let's not forget they've also nurtured George.

How that dynamic between Toto and the two drivers changes as the season goes on, if they're close to each other, is going to be interesting to watch.

Max is just oozing frustration at the minute.

It's a good time for Hatcher. This is a chance to just say, look, come and galvanize behind me, guys.

Who is the fourth fastest car?

There's an argument for Alpine. It's the one squad that dedicated their 25 development to 26 and actually pulled it off.

Looking at you, William, sorry.

2026 has become a test session for Aston Martin-Honda.

Fernando, of all people, is sort of the most positive of the bunch because they're so far off.

They can make strides everywhere, whereas I think if they'd come in and they were P8 in the Constructors' Championship, that would be way more frustrating for him.

You've got to be kidding me, TC. You've got to be kidding me. You think it would have been worse to be better?

Welcome, everyone, to the show.

I'm Tom Clarkson and we've got a bit of a break before the next race in Miami at the beginning of May.

But rest assured, you're still going to get your F1 fix in the next few weeks.

There's lots of good stuff coming on the F1 YouTube channel, the F1 website, F1 social channels, and, of course, here on our F1 podcasts.

And joining me here on F1 Nation are former F1 driver Jolien Palmer and Indy Carr race winner James Hinchcliffe.

Guys, great to have you both on the show.

JP, let's start with you. How was the night shift over the Suzuka weekend?

It was tough. It's never an easy one, but it was a decent weekend overall, wasn't it?

Kimmy Antonelli moving on with another victory. I don't know if anyone saw the level of dominance that he had through the weekend coming, but please be back on the days now, TC.

And Hinch, what time was it at Barba where you were last weekend?

Yeah, it wasn't great. Something like, I think the race started at 2am, so that was a replay Sunday morning when I woke up getting ready for the Indy Carr race kind of day.

So I luckily got to sleep through it, JP. Sorry that you had to pull the live shift.

Well, we're three races into the season and we've got a lot to talk about, so we thought we'd take a look back at what we've learned so far about the pecking order.

The biggest headline is that Kimmy Antonelli leads the world championship by nine points, and in so doing, he becomes the youngest leader of the world championship ever.

He has two wins to George Russell's one. So guys, let's start with our world title leader, Kimmy Antonelli. How impressive, JP, let's start with you, how impressive was Kimmy in Japan?

Yeah, I'm really impressive. I mean, that's why I sort of mentioned the word dominance for a weekend. I know in the end, the safety car made a big difference and it handed him the win.

But through the weekend, you just felt like he was completely in control of things. He had the pace on everyone, including George.

He had George sort of scratching his head and looking for setup tweaks, which ended up making his life harder, and it went more towards Kimmy's hands.

If he could just get off the line, that would have been a phenomenal race. We would never have seen him in the Grand Prix.

He'd have been away and he had the pace in hand over everyone. And I think it's the mentality stuff as well, isn't it?

It's kicking on from a race win in China where there was a lot more circumstance in play, certainly in qualifying to get ahead of George,

but then kicking on back-to-back victories, and he just seemed so calm. Even when he had a bad start, got himself back into position to win, even without the safety car, was really impressive.

I thought he'd kicked on after the win in China. Definitely, there was an inner confidence about him all weekend in Japan, both in and out of the car. Did you see that hinge?

Yeah, you see that all the time, don't you? When a driver gets their first win, it can often open the floodgates and it takes that pressure off.

You think back to China and that little mistake that he made in the hairpin late in the race. JP, you know what it's like. I know what it's like.

You're leading a race. It's going to be the first win of a new category or something like that, and there's so much pressure, even with the massive lead that he had.

You're thinking of all the things that could go wrong, and you have that small lapse in concentration, kind of snaps you back into place, you get it done.

You move on to the next race. Now you're a winner. Now you know that you can do it. Now you know that you can execute at that level.

It does bring a level of calm that is so different from being in that position for the first time.

I think you're right. I think you saw it all weekend long in Japan, and for me, what was super telling was the disappointment with his second lap in Q3 that would have been faster.

It didn't matter, but he was still annoyed that he made that mistake.

And then his post-race radio on the cooldown lap, it was night and day different from a week prior when he's winning his first race.

It's all the emotion. It's this release of expectation, all these things.

It was very like, thanks to the boys, girls back at the factory. Great job. Let's go get the next one kind of thing.

It was a very different Kimi, and it just shows you that he's leveled up.

I'm fascinated by the intra-team dynamic at Mercedes now, because throughout last year, George was the team leader, and Kimi was the student, if you like, wasn't he?

Whereas do you think George is now going to be treating Kimi a little differently? Is it a proper threat now? He's proved it.

But I think you saw that a little bit in the way that George was through the weekend.

He was extremely frustrated, understandably on a few counts, because a few things went against him in the race.

Quite a few things. And the result, he's absolutely right. He could have won the race if the safety car had come out 30 seconds later.

He would have been in position to at least lead and then try and control Kimi's attack later on.

So I think partly the frustration was there, but partly he is starting to think, hang on, this was, if you asked anyone after Melbourne,

I think they would have said, this is George Russell's title. This is.

I still believe he's the favourite. I still think he's got the best chance.

Why?

I think over the course of the season, I think his consistency will be better.

I still believe he's shown over a number of years the highest level which could win championships.

And I just haven't seen that from Kimi. Obviously the sample size is small, but last year, he was really quick in Japan.

He took the fastest lap of the race in Japan last year, finished on George's tail, qualified right with him.

So it's no surprise that he's quick in Japan again, but can he be quick on circuits that he struggled in?

Remember the lull he had in the middle of the season? You can't have those in a championship winning year.

And in fact, Oscar showed it last year. It was so good for so much, but had the lull in the Americas and it cost him.

My belief right now is that George will be more consistent over the year.

But even me, who still thinks it's George, there is an element of like, well, hang on, Kimi is stepping up and you never know how these things go.

I agree with 100% everything that JP just said.

And the Piastri, I think, story is an important one to kind of consider and kind of remember.

Because if George, for whatever reason, has a few races midseason where things don't go well and he hits a bit of a slump,

that could bring things, you know, but you think of where Piastri was after Zandvoort, right?

If we all think that George is the guy, racing still has variables that you can't control and you could still have two, three bad weekends in a row,

maybe nothing to do with yourself, that if you have allowed your teammate to be too close to you at that stage,

all of a sudden that power dynamic can shift into their favor.

So, yeah, I think right from the drop now, you know, George has to be a little bit more cutthroat.

Some of those traits that you were talking about, Julian, that you saw from his junior formula car career have to come out and they've got to play that game.

But I completely agree if you look at, you know, George's season last year, how consistent he was, how good he was at maximizing on a weekend.

You know, China was still a little bit, you know, there was issues on George's side that contributed to it.

Kimmy still hasn't got off the line well once in four cracks at it.

So there's still things in his game that need to improve, whereas I think George is already at such a high level, which you would come to expect at someone in their eight season versus their second.

And let me add a couple of things. Miami's the next race.

So I mentioned last time out, Japan, Kimmy was really quick. Kimmy took sprint pole in Miami last year.

He was really quick in Miami for some reason, just gelled with the circuit.

So we can expect him to keep this run of form going and for him to be very quick compared to George, or at least push George all the way.

And do you remember the moment in Japan where George had the super clipping?

There was a software bug in the system and he pressed a button on the steering wheel and rather than derate, he fully super clipped.

So he lost a huge amount of speed.

There was a moment on commentary where I thought, oh, he's slowing to a halt. The speed difference was so big.

And you think these power units in this new set of regs, they are fragile.

You know, Mercedes components have got wrong quite a lot in the back of other cars.

Williams have struggled a little bit, McLaren have struggled a lot more.

It doesn't take much now for anything to happen to George.

And with the lead that Kimmy's got, maybe he has another good race in Miami, something else.

And suddenly the gap's like 34 points.

It's possible. It's all hypothetical land.

But then the pressure's properly on because he will feel a bit like Lando this time last year.

He'll be thinking, this is my year. All of the cards have fallen that right now this should be etching 2026 champion George Russell.

It has to be that in his head.

But you start to think after a few races when if you're on the back foot and let's say something goes wrong when you're already on the back foot like it did for Lando in Zanvo last year.

You start to think, wow, I can't afford to lose this.

So I think the other thing to consider too is right now we're looking at just the two Mercedes cars as kind of always being one too.

But as the rules develop and teams improve, all of a sudden a bad start could drop you down to six.

But you might not be able to just drive your way through the field anymore and you might finish fifth and your teammate wins.

So for a lot of last year, it was Oscar versus Lando, P1 or P2. P2 was a bad day.

Later part of the year, second half of the year, P3 was a bad day because Max was in the conversation.

But if all of a sudden you're having these fourth, fifth, sixth place finishes where your teammates up on the podium, that 34 point deficit can can be created very quickly.

Actually, I'm already shocked that we're a race three and we've had a Mercedes in a race that's not, you know, there was a safety car, but it didn't massively affect George.

He was third at the safety car and we've had we've had a race where Mercedes aren't on the podium.

That shows already the rate of progress and the rate of raceability of the Ferris and the McLaren. So it's a good point.

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Guys, you've made a couple of references to Kimmy's start going back to P6 from Pole Position at Suzuka.

Can we talk about lights out? Because I don't know whether you noticed it, JP,

but the first two lights at the start at Suzuka came on at the same time, right?

So we got one and two on at the same time. Then we go 3, 4, 5, and then out they go.

How does that unsettler drive it? Do you think that's why Kimmy made his bad start?

Do you think how does it unsettle a commentator when you suddenly see lights coming on at the same time as well?

Luckily, I don't do the talking at that moment.

So with that, the drivers and us in commentary were informed that that could happen.

There was a glitch when it was tested on the Thursday, all the systems were tested,

and for some reason there was a little bug in the system that just had lights one and two coming on at the same time.

We were told it's an unlikely chance to happen in the race, but if it does, that's something.

Lo and behold, it did. I'm not expecting it to happen again, but the drivers were all told about it.

I think if they weren't told about it, it might surprise you a little bit,

but I don't think that will have made any difference.

Because really, from the first light on to the fourth light on, you're all just in prep phase.

It used to be, didn't it? Just red lights go on, red lights go off, and effectively now the build-up to the five red lights

are all just waiting for five red lights on where you need to be perfectly in position with your throttle,

have your revs where you want them, have your clutch on the tip of your fingers ready to drop to the right point.

So lights one or two, I don't think it's... I'm not going to give them that as an excuse.

And what about the intra-team rivalry? You've made some references to last year, Lando Norris, Oscar Piastri.

Do we see a sort of repeat happening here? Do you think the characters we're talking about in George and Kimmy Hinch,

are they similar? Do you see it playing out the same way, or do you think there's more of an edge to George and Kimmy?

I don't think we're going to see a repeat of Hamilton and Rosberg in 2016,

but do you think it'll be more that than what we saw at McLaren?

Potentially, yes, because I do think that George has a bit more of an edge,

maybe than either Lando or Oscar had to show or chose to show last year.

And then conversely, I think I haven't seen that out of Kimmy, that he's even got that same level.

If Lando and Oscar were sort of level-ish here and here, I think George's a bit higher, maybe Kimmy's a bit lower,

but I think that all changes as we get further into the championship.

And if this theme continues, that it's kind of going back and forth between the two of them,

as we sort of thought was going to happen, maybe to a bigger extent last year at McLaren,

but tensions are going to rise, Toto's going to do what he can to try to keep a lid on that

because he's seen what can happen when that keeps going too far.

But it is interesting because Toto has been so open about the whole Kimmy Antonelli experiment,

and it almost feels like a lot of Toto's belief in himself and his ability to spot talent relies on Kimmy being successful.

Obviously, he's a two-time Grand Prix winner now.

To a large extent, he's proved it right.

But how that dynamic between Toto and the two drivers kind of changes as the season goes on,

and if they're close to each other, it's going to be interesting to watch.

But it's interesting, isn't it, because you sort of mentioned,

and there's got to be a level of Kimmy justifying Mercedes' decision to put him in.

He came in so young, loads of questions on it last year, and if he does well, then Toto can sit back and say,

look, we told you this guy's a talent.

But let's not forget, they've also nurtured George.

So they brought George from Formula Three through the ranks, put him at Williams for a couple of years,

then put him at Mercedes, and he's just played a longer game.

But he's also a Mercedes protege.

So if George wins or if Kimmy wins, they can say this is one of our own that we've brought through the ranks,

and we're showing it.

Just obviously Kimmy's been under a little bit more scrutiny because he's had such a quick rise.

And we touched on it in an earlier pod that there is the looming presence of Max Verstappen.

Who knows what Max is going to do going forward.

But on the evidence of what we saw last year and the driver Mary go round,

I'm sure him or his manager Raymond Vermeulen will have been on the telephone to Toto Wolf.

And that puts added pressure on the current guys, even though Toto felt...

He almost felt forced to come out with a statement in Suzuki saying, there's no room at the end.

If George and Kimmy are both driving well, are you thinking you're still desperate to put Max in the car?

I don't know. If you've got a happy partnership and they're winning,

obviously we know Max has got all the talent in the world and surely as the pecking order gets closer,

the cars will develop as well and get more akin to something that Max wants to drive.

But I don't feel like it's quite the same as last year when we saw him at the peak of his powers wanting and having that hunger.

So I think if you're George and Kimmy, I think you're kind of enjoying the fact that Max isn't loving life right now.

I'm sure he's still looking at a team that can win races, but then there's a whole bigger picture with Max.

I'd like to see a bit more fight in the Mercedes duo as the season goes on.

I think the McLaren one last year as a benchmark, it was just so sedate, wasn't it?

They were very much complying to team orders all the way, even in bonds of time.

Even then, there was repercussions for what happened in Singapore and Lando took it on the chin.

Really, Singapore was the only moment where I thought there was a proper bit of fight from Norris against Piastri.

Apart from that, both drivers were just listening to the team and playing it nice, which is great.

Good for McLaren. They won. Happy days. The team carry on. The partnership's good.

Just from a sporting sense, if you've only got one of the two of them that can win, I'm here for the rivalries.

Andrea Stella, team principal of McLaren, said in Suzuka that Lando and Oscar are getting on better.

They're working even closer this year than they did last year, which I was surprised at,

because I feel there's actually more of a gap between Oscar and Lando at the moment

than there was almost at any point last year.

Pretty much any competitive session, I'm talking quali really,

Oscar seems to have got the edge on Lando with these 2026 cars.

And yet here they are still working closer than ever.

I think the important thing is they're working together to get the team better, right?

Beating your teammate to fourth and fifth is a lot less fun than beating them for first and second.

And so I'm not surprised that they're working even better together this year

because they need to get that car up into the fight. It's just not there yet.

They've already shown a little bit of progress. They've always had Miami as kind of the race

for their first big upgrade package. That obviously is not going to change now.

Other teams have had to sort of shift their approach.

But it's a time in a team where the drivers really do have to work together

to make sure that you can then go, all right, now I can butt heads with my teammate

because we're fighting over wins. As long as we're fighting over fourth place,

it's not really as interesting. So I'm not surprised to hear it.

I think it's the right approach for those guys.

They can be quite relaxed, can't they? Because there's no title on the line.

The scrutiny is not there. Also, I feel like Norris has not had a very good run of things at the moment.

So China in the sprint, he outqualified Oscar.

Then there was not much in it, but he lost out in the China qualifying.

Neither of them started the race.

But in Melbourne and Japan, he's had so many issues going through practice

that I don't think we've seen Lando particularly on a clean weekend as a reference against Oscar.

So not only are they not competitive enough, hopefully they'll get there quickly.

And Japan was a much better showing for Oscar.

But yeah, I think in terms of the comparison, when you've got one car being so hobbled

and only running sort of half of practice, it does make a fair comparison a little bit harder.

JP, I'm just here to big up your work, quite frankly.

And I have spent my time since Suzuka.

Well, reading one of your pieces on the Formula One website.

It was a long read.

Three keys to Piastri's brilliant weekend in Japan.

For those who haven't had a chance to read this brilliant article, what were they?

Wow, thanks, TC.

You should read it.

But if you can't get around to it, then it was qualifying, being so close.

I mean, if you all remember Claren, if you can qualify in third position,

you fundamentally have a shot of leading the race at the moment, don't you?

And he was very, very close to actually out qualifying George at the end of Q3.

So I think obviously the first key, getting ahead of Charlotte Clare on the grid

and almost getting the front row.

Second key was obviously the launch.

His start was phenomenal.

And we are seeing actually really good starts from the McLarens when they can get to the line.

They have managed to get a good handle on it.

So it's not the Mercedes power unit that's particularly tricky.

Mercedes are just bad off the line.

And then the third key I thought was the way that he managed the race.

And that's the bit that, I mean, the qualifying and the start are obvious to see.

But I loved the way that he controlled the race.

And the way that he let George through, managed to repass him straight away,

kept life in the tires and was actually just gapping him

before then getting on the radio and saying,

right, what are we doing on the strategy?

And he was active about it.

He didn't want to be there in first position,

thinking he's got the pace now to hold on to George and just be undercut by a faster car.

So rather than just sit there, let the strategist do their job and accept whatever comes.

I liked the way that he was on the radio and said, right, we need to make sure we stay ahead.

So then Tom Stalock got us on the radio and says, all right, when do you want to pit then?

And I quite like that.

You know, that's not an easy question to be asked when you're in the lead of the race with everything to lose.

He took the initiative.

It didn't work out because of the safety car.

But all of it I thought was really good and fundamentally just unlucky with the safety car.

The Berman Colopinto crash is I think it's the first time we've had a safety car outside of the first 15 laps in decades.

Do you think Piastri would have won that Grand Prix without the safety car?

Probably not.

But you can't be sure which is the good thing for McLaren.

And for me, Kimmy was still the threat even though he was behind George.

It's easy to forget when the safety car came out, Kimmy was at the front.

Then it was Oscar.

Then it was George.

So without the safety car, probably you get Kimmy going much longer.

I don't think Mercedes pitted George in the right window.

I think that was an error on any count pitting him when they did.

And obviously it became unlucky when the safety car came.

But there was no reason to pit him.

So I think the bull was going to play in towards Kimmy's court here going along using your pace and then getting a tire offset at the very least or an overcut.

If you're that fast, to then come through without a safety car.

Like for like then, the second half of the race, you've got Kimmy Oscar George.

George was just behind him on the safety car restart.

And he finished fourth.

He finished.

He lost positions.

You thought, OK, they'll make mincemeat of him and there'll be a 1-2.

But actually no.

Lionel Stern on the safety car restart and Oscar just held George back for the whole race.

And in fact, George would tumble down.

What about Ferrari then?

Charles Leclerc brings it home third.

Hinch, I'd like to know your thoughts on why Leclerc was so much more dominant over his teammate, over Hamilton at Suzuka.

Because remember, Hamilton came out of China the previous race.

Having got his first podium in red, he couldn't have been more positive.

And yet he never, he never really took the challenge to Leclerc all weekend at Suzuka at a track that he really loves as well.

It's a track that he does love, a track he's done well at.

But I think if you watched the onboard throughout practice, you could see that this was not going to be a happy Hamilton because that car was just diabolically loose everywhere.

Just so much oversteer, such a lack of rear grip.

And, you know, we've talked a lot about Hamilton style.

He kind of needs that button down rear end a little bit more.

He can deal with the understeer, maybe better than Leclerc, but Leclerc can deal with an oversteering car more so.

And some of Charles on boards were just, I mean, I was like standing back from the TV watching because it was it looked just awful.

And so, you know, I don't think he was particularly happy behind the wheel, but I do think that he manages that balance a little bit better than Hamilton does.

So it's not a huge surprise that he had the edge over him.

It's maybe a bigger surprise and a bit of a disappointment for them that they couldn't get a handle on the balance.

It seemed like a lot of teams struggled to get their cars to do what they wanted them to do.

And I think that's ultimately what put Lewis on the back foot was just he didn't have the rear grip that he did have in China, you know, more of a front limited track to kind of exploit it.

So tough weekend, I think, for the squad.

And they'll be extra disappointed to see that they've kind of been overtaken in a lot of ways by McLaren to have Oscar finish ahead of them.

Both I think will be a bit of a wake up call.

I think that's where the Ferrari is quick, though.

I think the Ferrari is a car.

Every time you see it, it's a bit on the knife edge.

And sometimes it was too loose and even and like you say, Charles was was hanging onto it.

Even in Q3 out of Spoon, he had a huge snap and that was on his, you know, most grip, last lap of Q3 and it's still wanting to spin him off.

But I do think that's how the Ferrari car is.

When I've watched it in preseason testing, it was the same story.

It's a little bit on a knife edge, but it is really quick through the corners.

So it's not like it's that they don't have speed through the corners.

They are actually the fastest car through the corners.

When Charles had his big moment at Spoon, he was on a par with Kimmy at that point.

I think he would have lost it because the straight line speed performance isn't as good anyway before he had the the D rating.

But for me, there is a still a feeling that that Charles will just be a little bit quicker than Lewis or is a little bit quicker on balance.

I completely agree.

Lewis doesn't want to have the oversteer Charles natural flamboyance will let him hang on to it like that.

But I still think a little bit like we talk about favorite tracks and whatnot.

Lewis has always been great in China.

He's been super fast in Melbourne.

I'm interested to see still the next races if he's I mean Montreal, he's formidable as well.

But Miami's his records not been so good.

Again, it's one where you think if Charles can hang on to it, he's been quick and erratic in the past.

But I want to see if Lewis can make this a sustainable fight at Ferrari or if it's a little bit like last year where he was quick for a couple of races and then tailed off.

And I think we haven't seen sort of evidence either way yet.

Joe, I asked the top three in the post race press conference what they needed to focus on in this the spring break that we're now in prior to Miami.

Kimmy Antonelli said, I need to work on the start.

OK, fine.

After what we just see it.

Oscar Piastri says we just need to work on optimizing what we have.

And Charlotte Clair said we need to work on the engine, which we're not allowed to do, obviously, in the regs.

But he really drilled home the point that Ferrari's PU is not as good as the Merc the two guys sat next to him.

Would you agree or is it just the way the cars set up?

It's all it's all power unit performance that they're missing compared to the to the Merc and the McLaren completely agree.

If you look through it, that you're like I said, the cornering speeds really, really good.

And actually some I think there's an element between both drivers and particularly Lewis was struggling on Sunday in Japan with understanding the energy deployment.

So going quicker through the corners slower on the straights and losing lap time.

As well was really struggling to work out the balance of speed through the corners versus having battery to having energy to use on the on the straight.

So the actual hardware, I'm sure there's a good performance deficit.

But maybe there is a little bit more for Ferrari to just understand about their power unit anyway, just to close the gap.

Right.

So let's talk pecking order.

We still think Mercedes is the fastest car McLaren P2 Ferrari P3.

Is that we all in agreement on that?

I think two and three is going to depend track to track.

We're going to get it well ahead of ourselves.

But TC, when we get to Monaco Ferrari, I think Ferrari can win.

I said it from the start.

I'm sticking to my guns because it's not power sensitive.

McLaren is starting to understand the Mercedes PU.

They are obviously finding time.

There's going to be some upgrades coming on their car for Miami.

I think they probably will be overall second quickest, but there will be certain tracks where Ferrari are flying.

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My question to you now is, who is the fourth fastest car?

Who has the fourth fastest car now?

Has a fourth in the Constructors' Championship?

Is it Has?

Is it Alpine?

Is it Red Bull?

I mean, there's an argument for Alpine with Gasly qualifying seventh, basically every chance he's had.

So, yeah, I mean, they've got the right power unit in the back of the car.

It's the one squad that dedicated their 25 development to 26 and actually pulled it off.

Looking at you, William, sorry.

But it's not a bad position to be in.

And yeah, if we're talking about fastest car, you talk about qualifying.

That's when you see the speed of a car.

And right now, they're out qualifying Red Bulls on a regular basis.

And how good was Gasly in Suzuka when he had Verstappen staring at his gearbox lap after lap?

And from what I could see, he didn't make a single mistake.

Really good.

One of the best drivers on Sunday, I think, went fairly unnoticed until we started seeing Max trying to get him on the last couple of laps.

He only finished seven seconds away from Lewis.

The gap six to seventh, we're sort of used to, we've been talking all year that, oh, there's a massive gap between the big guns and the rest.

Well, straight away after three races, you can almost say Red Bull are in the rest rather than the big guns.

Their performance drop off since Melbourne has been a real head scratcher.

But yeah, Gasly was not far away from the Ferraris or from the Ferrari from Lewis.

I had a drink with Steve Nielsen, the managing director of Alpine on Friday night in Suzuka.

And he was just saying, what a difference these three races are having.

Actually, at that point in the Japanese Grand Prix weekend, they were struggling with understeer, which you really don't want around Suzuka.

But still, he said, we've gone from a team, we've locked over the last few years.

We've lost a lot of good people, but suddenly we're a desirable team again.

The CVs are starting to come through the letterbox.

They've got Jason Somerville, a brilliant aero guy joining in a couple of months.

You can feel the tide starting to turn at Alpine.

So really happy for them.

But why don't we talk a little more about Red Bull racing?

They have their lowest points total after three races since 2015.

And all I remember then was Adrian Newey being very rude about Renault, the Renault PU.

That's all we got.

That was the all we got out of Red Bull that season.

And look, team principal Laurel Mechiz was my guest on last week's F1 Beyond the Grid podcast.

We recorded it on the Thursday of Japan.

And when he joined halfway through last season,

remember after Christian Horner was showing the door,

they decided, the team decided to continue focusing on their 25 car

instead of switching full attention to 26.

So I asked Laurel why they made that decision

and whether they're paying the price for it now.

With the new regulations coming for 2026, with the new power unit projects,

there were all the reasons in the world to say, well, you know what, let's turn the page.

25 did not work.

Let's concentrate on 26.

You would have been mad to do anything differently.

And the true system, nobody wanted to turn the page.

They all wanted to get to the bottom of that 25 car,

get to the bottom of what didn't work and turn things around.

That's how deep is the fighting spirit in the team.

We still think it was the right thing to do

because we felt that turning the page to 26

would have been a little bit of an easy escape

and a wishful thinking that next year will be better

even though we didn't fully understand what was the limitation of 25.

We didn't think it was the right way.

Now, of course, the time and energy we invested for the late push last year,

does it have an impact on where you start?

26, of course it does.

So of course, we pay a bit of the price today.

Do we use it as an excuse?

No, we are not happy with the starting point,

but this team has been very, very good in turning things around

and we have another chance to do it this year.

I love it.

I think it was the right call because, look,

with everything changing in 2026,

you just have no idea where you're going to stack up,

even if you dedicate all your resource to it.

Look at Williams as an example, right?

But in 2025, they still had a shot.

It's so difficult to have a shot,

to be in a position to fight for a championship

that I think if you even have a remote chance to do it,

you have to go for it.

And I love that Luan said that that was the attitude within the team.

Nobody wanted to give up.

Everybody thought it was still possible.

And guys, they came within two points of getting it done.

I mean, it nearly really paid off for them.

Even if you pay a little bit of the price in 2026,

there were just so many question marks around it anyway.

I love it.

I think they did the right thing.

And look, from our seat, from the three of our seats,

it made the end of 2025 way more exciting.

So selfishly, it was good for us and good for the sport.

But I think from a team standpoint,

it was the right call because those opportunities

can be fleeting and you got to jump at them when you can.

It was honestly, it was barely an opportunity last year,

though, wasn't it?

So when Laurent came in, the Red Bull were nowhere.

And it made, if you rewind to sort of Budapest,

it made no sense at that point for them to continue developing.

I bet if we'd spoken to you, Hinge, summer break last year

and you say Red Bull could throw everything at this year,

or look to next year, there's not a chance you're going to say,

yeah, keep developing to Abu Dhabi.

Even Max Verstappen was saying after Hungary, wasn't he?

I don't think I'm going to win another race this year.

So you can admire the racing spirit.

I completely get it.

Look, we're broadcasters.

What an amazing year it was in the end.

It came down to the last lap of Abu Dhabi.

What a turnaround.

I do think it's brought, you know,

Laurent and Red Bull sort of a bit of time

because they've seen, they've shown how well they can develop a car

and get the race team back into winning mode

where they were sort of in a bit of freefall before.

It's a shame they didn't win it if they were going to do that though

because there was so much that kind of went their way as well.

You think the McLaren's clashing in the Austin Sprint.

You obviously think the DQ in Vegas.

All of it, they got so close

and with all of that development, 100% of focus on last year

to come so close, two points,

one position for Philando and not quite get it

and then also compromise this set of regs is,

it's a tough one.

I like the racing spirit,

but I guess that I think they knew this year

they were already going to be compromised because of the power unit.

What they probably didn't know is actually their power unit is pretty solid

and it's better than they thought last summer.

So when you actually see how it stacks up,

even compared to the Ferrari power unit, it's not bad.

It's just that the cars underdeveloped

and you think, oh, maybe we actually could have done a little bit more for this year.

But hey, we enjoyed the fight in 25.

A lot rests on Miami for Red Bull, doesn't it?

They're bringing a big upgrade package

like a lot of the leading teams

and where they stack up in Miami, I think,

will define what the rest of the season looks like for them.

Yeah, because they've got to understand the car, don't they?

I mean, it's not as simple as we're a bit slow.

We're missing a few points of downforce.

You talk to the Cadillac guys, right?

It's like, yeah, we're missing load. We know that.

The car is pretty reasonable.

It's underdeveloped. We don't have as much downforce.

Let's find some ways to slap some downforce on a car.

The Red Bull, I mean, the comments coming out of Max and Isaac in Japan were tough to read.

They were not very complimentary of the balance, of setup changes, of correlation.

I think Hajar was saying the car felt like it was trying to kill them at some point.

It's not a happy car and they don't know why.

They don't know why they were third on the grid in Australia

and then have fallen down to the pace that they had in Japan.

So that's the bigger concern.

It's not as simple as, yeah, we're going to keep developing the Aero

and keep finding more points of downforce.

There's a fundamental issue with that car.

And as of today, as of post-Japan, they don't know what it is or how to fix it.

If you don't know what it is, you don't know what to fix, right?

So that's why I think Miami is such a key race for them

because you've obviously got this massive amount of time

that Formula One teams don't normally get in the middle of a season

to really do a deep dive into the data, run all the simulations, spend time in the simulator,

get all these things worked out.

And then if you get to Miami and you haven't gotten on top of some of these issues,

even directionally understanding where to go,

that's not a great sign for the middle part of the year for that team.

I think they have some performance in the car,

but it's obviously they've just been missing a setup window for the last couple of races.

When you think back to Bahrain testing,

they were in the conversation for at least the top four.

They were not in a conversation of Alpine and Haas.

Then Hajar qualifies third.

Maybe other teams didn't optimize, but they were once again, they were in that conversation.

And you've got to remember Max came from the back of the field

and was right on the tail of the only McLaren in the race.

They've not just been outdeveloped in the course of three races.

What they've done is work the car from Melbourne,

where it was obviously working quite well.

They've then, for some reason, got to China.

I don't know if the pre-event simulation for the setup or something

hasn't put them in the right direction.

Now, they changed the car a lot between the China Sprint and the Grand Prix.

It didn't make any difference to the balance.

And then once again, we got to Japan

and they were fighting with various issues, loads of understeer, loads of oversteer

and couldn't find a balance.

But it's just weird how it was working okay in Melbourne.

I know everyone's moving forward and the goals are shifting,

but that Melbourne performance, even if McLaren are gaining and Ferrari are gaining,

it should leave you well clear of Alpine and Haas.

So it's the big thing, it's understanding it, isn't it?

And obviously bringing upgrades is going to help.

It's going to be a moving goal this year.

But if you can't understand what you've got currently, then it's so difficult.

It reminds me a little bit of Mercedes for the last couple of years.

Occasionally would be quick, had no idea why.

It's a big problem.

And a car that's difficult to drive,

which of the two Red Bull drivers would you expect to qualify ahead?

Max Verstappen.

So I think let's look at the positives from the team point of view,

that the fact that Hajar out-qualified Verstappen in such a difficult car.

Okay, Hajar is very good at Suzuka.

He was good last year, he was good again.

But still, I've been really impressed at how he's got to grips with a difficult car,

how he's embedded himself inside that team.

And that surely is at least a positive to come out of Suzuka.

Yeah, they don't have the second car blues anymore, do they?

I mean, it really does seem like Hajar has done an incredible job.

Well, yeah, I got to both car blues.

But I mean, it's in some ways it is better.

Because at least they are close.

And I think like, you know, it's a great point to see.

When we can look at, you know, last year, the last few years,

you take a team when they are having a weekend where the car's really good

and the teammates are quite close.

I think back to Mercedes quite a bit last year, right?

When Mercedes was at a track that the car was really dialed in

and the performance was there, Kimmy was quite close to George.

You know, they could be very competitive.

When you got to a track where they were really struggling,

George would still hang on to those fourths and fifths

where Kimmy was, you know, lower half of the top 10,

you know, on a good day in those bad days.

So you kind of tend to see that difference

and especially experience when the car's not performing well.

This car's not performing well.

But they had George right there with Max, you know,

it's kind of back and forth between the two of them.

So from the team standpoint, I think they can take some, you know,

solace on the fact that they put the right guy in that second car.

Now they need to focus on getting the car back up to where it needs to be.

And Max is just oozing frustration at the minute, isn't he?

I mean, guys, he had a press briefing.

I'm sure you both heard about it on the Thursday.

I alluded to it earlier, but, you know, where he asked a journalist to leave

the hospitality area of Red Bull because he was frustrated at a question

he'd asked him at the end of last year.

And these are not cars where you want to be frustrated, right?

You've talked about Charles Leclerc ringing the neck of a car

and actually, you know, getting nowhere with it.

So if you're not in the right frame of mind with these cars

and you've almost got to have a patience about you to get the maximum from them,

I think you're going to struggle.

And we saw that from Max in Suzuki, didn't we?

He's just not enjoying anything about it, is he?

He's not enjoying racing the cars.

He's not enjoying driving the cars.

Like you say, the patience, the different tactics and management you need

behind the wheel is not what he inherently wants to do.

So the pace of the Red Bull is also not good.

So if he does it well, he can qualify seventh or eighth.

And he just wants to get in a car, drive it in the old school way.

And these are needing, this set of regs, you're needing to adapt a lot.

You're needing to do things that drivers won't be used to from behind the wheel.

And small techniques make a big difference.

And yeah, he's not in the best headspace for it.

He's still doing a solid job when you look at it.

He came through, finished behind Ghazli in the Grand Prix,

was coming through in China as well and had the power unit overheating,

the battery overheating.

So he is still there or thereabouts.

But you just think at Red Bull, it's a good time for Haja.

I think he's driving really well.

I'm impressed with how he started.

And then you're looking across at the main guy not enjoying that side of things.

And you think this is a chance for me to just say, look, I'm good.

I'm here.

Come and galvanize behind me, guys, if you want,

and just try and keep that enthusiasm going.

Because it must be difficult, I think, for the Red Bull team to have your champion

kind of oozing so much negativity.

When you walk in the garage and you know that you're going to strut your driver in,

but he's not loving being there, I think Max is because he's been so vocal about it.

He still has to keep working.

I'm sure he is.

I'm sure he's still as hungry as ever.

JP, keep working.

But if I was Laura Mechiers, I would want Max Verstappen in the factory as soon as possible,

just to sort of allay any fears.

Because I think there's been so much negativity coming out of the Red Bull camp over the Sasuke weekend,

whether it's from a performance point of view.

They will have all read that story about the journalist.

I think Max Verstappen needs to go into the factory and just give some positivity back

to all the guys and girls working round the clock to give him as good a car as they can.

And I think because they'll otherwise be just coming into work going,

guys, the lead guy's not buying this.

Why are we doing this?

And I think he just needs to give confidence back to that racing team.

You're not wrong, but we also don't know what's happening back at the factory.

Comments in the press are one thing.

What's said behind closed doors, I think, is a very different thing.

But I think he needs to do that, Hinch.

Go and do the behind closed doors bit now, because we've all seen what's come out of the media.

But what I'm saying is we don't know what he's saying in the garage.

Maybe he's already done that, right?

I mean, I can think back to races even last year, the last couple of years,

where the balance isn't great.

Max is having an OK session or an OK race.

And if you listen to his radio, you would think that he was having the worst Grand Prix that any driver's ever experienced in their life.

That's Max.

And I think everybody that works at Red Bull knows that to a certain extent Max's emotions can outweigh the actual feeling within the camp.

So I think that I completely agree.

This is a time to kind of de-galvanize the team behind him or just in general.

They're so used to winning over the last half decade, and they're not in that position right now,

but they've proved that they can make a comeback when properly motivated and heading the right direction.

But they just, I think the people there, they know Max.

I think they believe in Max.

I think that they believe that every time he's getting into the race car,

regardless of what he says outside, regardless of what he says with the microphone in his face,

I think they believe that he is working 100 percent of his efforts to make this thing better,

that when he's strapped into that car, he is driving to within 100 percent of his abilities.

And that's what a team wants to know is that the effort that they're putting in,

the 100 percent effort they're putting in behind the scenes to build a better car,

is being matched by the driver inside the car and take sound bites out of it.

I'd be surprised if any one of the team could argue that Max isn't doing that part.

So can the cheerleading part maybe get a bit better, a bit stronger?

Maybe. Again, we don't know what's being said behind closed doors,

but I think they've got faith in what he's doing behind the wheel.

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There's one more team I wanted to discuss today, however, and that is the Green team.

Papa Fernando specifically, right?

He arrives in Suzuka on Friday morning.

I mean, grinning like a Cheshire cat, it was so wonderful to see.

He's very private, Fernando, actually, about family and friends,

but he did open the door at Jart and just tell us all a few things about him.

About what a proud moment it is and how much he was relieved

to have been at the birth of his child.

But how do you think Fernando is feeling about his work at the moment?

I mean, we saw Aston Martin,

he got their first Grand Prix finish of the season at Suzuka.

Are there little chinks of light now?

I like your optimism.

But they were so slow in Japan, TC.

So, I mean, I think they've had to make trouble shooting issues, aren't they?

So, they've had to make concessions just to get the car to be able to finish the race.

And then, I see from Fernando, again, someone that's not happy with the overall state of play at the moment.

He's also been pretty vocal this year.

But I also see a patience from him, where you thought a two-time world champ

is what, 44, soon to be 45, he's a new dad.

And you think this could be the sort of time where it's toys out the pram.

We're done here. It's not worked out.

All of the dream of 26 hasn't happened.

But I've seen a different side of Fernando here.

The patience game, just thinking, OK, well, it's not right.

But what are we going to do about it?

It's a calm side.

And things are, they are bad.

I mean, it's one of the all-time flops that we're watching right now.

Aston Martin can only finish a race if they're running really down on power

to try and get some level of drivability and reliability out of it.

And they can just get one car to the end after three Grand Prix.

It's terrible.

But Fernando is obviously thinking, all right, buckle up.

I'm going to stay here and I'll be 50 years old,

but I still want to be your racing driver when we can fight for a championship.

He's not going to want to end it on this, is he?

2026 has become a test session for Aston Martin Honda.

And so it's all for him.

OK, Adrian Newey, what are we going to do in 27?

Oh, and by the way, can you no longer be team principal

because we need you to focus on the performance of the car?

Yeah, I mean, it is such a difficult situation to be in.

I mean, the place it's funny because Fernando of all people is sort of

the most positive of the bunch, which is not something you would have maybe predicted

if you'd explained this scenario to somebody.

But Adrian Newey's comments have been maybe less polished

than the average team principal would have done in a similar situation.

Lance isn't hiding his frustration and disappointment either.

And Fernando has kind of taken a little bit more of the fatherly approach

and being like, OK, which is maybe fitting now.

It was just he was just getting used to it, getting used to the mellow dad vibe.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

But no, it did.

I mean, it's to your point, JP, to have to detune the car essentially just to finish.

And we know that finishing at Suzukat Honda's home race was almost a mandatory thing.

Like if they had to slow it down, even no matter what they had to do,

they needed a car to finish there.

It'll be interesting going back to Miami without that pressure now.

They assumedly turn everything back up.

How much progress have they really made?

But this is this is absolutely a long, long, long program.

This is not going to happen quickly.

This is not going to be easy and it's not going to be fun.

But I think those in the team that stick it out, that keep the morale high

and keep the mentality in the right place, hopefully in two, three years, maybe,

will be rewarded with because all the pieces are there.

I mean, they're all there, but it's just it's just not come together.

But then you've got to think with with this.

We're talking Red Bull.

We're thinking, oh, you know, this is a longer term plan for them to get back now.

Ferrari, the development upgrades that they may have at some point to close the power unit side.

And Aston Martin will 100% get that because they are miles adrift and they need it.

But we are talking 1.7 seconds to get out of Q1.

You could have put two entire Grand Prix grids in that gap last year.

And that's just for Aston Martin, for Fernando Alonso to make it to Q2.

That's the level of performance they need for some point this year to go and find.

And it's not the work of a moment.

But guys, that's why Fernando Alonso, I think, is being relatively positive about it because they're so far off.

It's obvious that where they can make strides, they can make strides everywhere, right?

Whereas I think if they'd come in and they were, I don't know, P8 in terms of team performance,

P8 in the Constructors' Championship, that would be way more frustrating for him

because they've sort of got it right but not right enough.

You've got to be kidding me, TC.

You've got to be kidding me.

You think it would have been worse to be better?

I think it's less demoralising for Fernando Alonso to be where they are now

than to be wedged in qualifying P6.

Yeah, because you've got Adrian Newey.

All you need is the ADUO.

I'd still have Adrian Newey if they were Williams, though.

All you need is the ADUO to come in and for Honda to make the strides that they can obviously make.

And then I think by the summer break, Aston Martin, right, you heard it here first, guys.

You've got to click this up.

Yeah, you can play this back in the summer break.

But I think come around race 13, race 14, Fernando Alonso will be

in the conversation in the midfield.

He won't be cut adrift like he is now.

Don't say it.

You can clip that bit up as well.

Yeah, I'm going to take the under on that one.

But JV, I'm so curious if I'm just a masochist here

or if you have the same curiosity I've got.

I've got this morbid curiosity to drive that Aston Martin

and feel what these vibrations are like.

I really want to know.

There's only two people now, Jack Crawford's trying it.

So there's three people that actually know what it feels like

and how difficult it is.

I am so curious what that must be like.

It's because as racing drivers, we know roughly what it's like to sit in a car.

You know what it's like to lock a wheel, to rumble a curb, to all of these sensations.

I have never had a car that's shaking me to bits as I'm driving.

So yeah, I have the same curiosity.

I'd like to stop when I want to stop.

I'd like to drive it to see what it's like.

And also, come on, let's look at history.

Fernando Alonso is very bright.

He's a political animal.

I think it was just a graphic illustration to the powers that be that we need some assistance

and the ADUO and all that kind of thing.

I'm sure there was a bit of gamesmanship going on as well.

I mean, no way saying that there were no vibrations,

but I've heard so many drivers, probably you two as well,

saying that if he was challenging for a win,

he would have stayed driving that car.

There is absolutely no doubt about it.

There was a little bit of gamesmanship going on

just to emphasise the powers that be that we, Honda, need help.

And he's good at it, isn't he?

Across the board, he knows all the subtleties that will get clipped up and do the rounds.

So I agree.

But we're into 2002 Fernando here, aren't we?

He's a test driver.

For the first time in like 25 years, he's a Formula One test driver,

and that's all Aston Martin are doing.

It's just such a crying shame that they are not even competitive to be...

I mean, he finished behind the Cadillac,

Czechos did a good race in Japan,

but they're so far off.

And I think that's why, to an extent,

there is nothing to play for, for him or Lance.

Every weekend they turn up, they'll drive around in circles,

they'll report a balance.

It doesn't even really matter at this stage.

The car's down on downforce,

but if they can't even get to the end of the race,

they can't get nearer Q2,

just bring us a heap of downforce, lose a bit of weight,

and then so much of the job is clearly on Honda's side.

And it doesn't look like it's going to be a quick fix.

Before Japan, they didn't know what was causing the vibration still.

They didn't know the root cause.

So ADUO or not,

if you don't know, we're talking about the chassis side on Red Bull,

understanding it is the main thing,

and Honda have got to understand exactly what's going on

before they can even think about bringing actual performance upgrades

and reliability genuine fixes.

Well, guys, thank you both very much for your time.

How does the spring brake look for you, JP?

Out in the garden.

Getting green-fingered.

I'm figuring out what all the gardening's about.

Weeding, mowing the lawn, stuff I never normally get time to do.

It's lovely, TC.

The joys of April time in the UK.

What an old soul.

Not gardening, I can tell you that.

Still lots to do on the IndyCar side,

have Long Beach Grand Prix coming up here in a few weeks,

but we do have two weekends off in a row, which is a bit different.

So back home in Toronto for a few days,

and then head back to Indianapolis,

start preparing for the next one.

Cool. Well, guys, have a great time.

Think of me running 35K tomorrow in preparation for the London Marathon.

Good luck.

I'm too old for this, but it's a bit late for me to back out now.

That's kind of where I'm at with this marathon running.

But anyway, quietly don't tell anyone,

but I'm actually really enjoying the training.

I'm enjoying the discipline.

You guys are professional sportsmen, right?

And the discipline surrounding fitness,

I'm actually very much enjoying.

I run three times a week, and I make sure I do.

When's the big day, TC?

So the marathon is 26th of April.

So the weekend before the Miami Grand Prix.

So, Hinch, if you see me walking around with crutches in Miami,

have a little electric scooter in the paddock,

and you'll know why.

Here comes TC.

I like it.

You're keeping yourself fit just in case you get that

Aston Martin call-up as well, which is good.

Well, apparently the chef can drive it,

and I do a good lasagna, lads.

So perhaps my name is on that drive.

But guys, thank you very much.

Great to catch up as ever,

and for everyone listening,

please keep across all the latest F1 news during the break

by going to f1.com, the official F1 app,

and at F1 on social media.

And don't forget to check out F1's other official podcasts.

My guest on F1 Beyond the Grid this week

is F1 Academy champion and Mercedes development driver,

Dorian Pan.

That's out on Wednesday,

and you can watch our chat on the F1 YouTube channel,

and the latest episode of F1 Explains is all about commentary

with F1 TV lead commentator, the legend himself, Alex Jakes.

That's just below this show on the F1 Nation feed.

Thanks very much for listening,

and we will be back next Monday.

So speak to you then.

F1 Nation is produced by Formula One and AudioBoom Studio.

Learn more at www.americanexpress.com

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About this episode

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