The Mustang Dark Horse SC is a powerful version of the Ford Mustang with a special supercharged engine and a fast-shifting 7-speed transmission. It also has special shocks that help the car handle better on the road or track.
A supercharged V8 is a type of engine with eight cylinders that uses a special device called a supercharger to make the car more powerful by pushing more air into the engine.
This is a type of car transmission that changes gears very quickly and smoothly by using two clutches instead of one, making the car feel faster and more responsive.
These special shocks in the car can change how soft or hard the ride feels by using magnets, so the car can be comfortable on the road and also handle well when driving fast.
The Shelby GT 500 is a very fast and powerful version of the Ford Mustang car. It has a strong engine that makes it go really fast and looks sportier than regular cars.
The Mustang GTD is a special and very fast version of the Ford Mustang made for racing and track use. It has extra power and special parts to help it go faster and handle better.
A homologation special is a special car made so it can be used in racing. The company has to make some cars you can drive on the street to follow the rules.
The Ford Mustang is a famous fast car that lots of people like because it looks cool and goes fast. Shelby makes special versions that are even more powerful.
The Mustang GT350R is a special fast version of the Ford Mustang made for racing and driving on tracks. It has a stronger engine and better parts to help it go faster and handle better.
A plug-in hybrid is a car that uses both gas and electricity. You can charge it by plugging it in, so it can drive some distance on just electricity, saving gas.
All wheel drive means the car sends power to all four wheels, which helps it grip the road better, especially when the road is slippery or rough.
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Welcome to The Guest, I'm Gary Gasteloo, this is the Gary and Alex Show, the official
podcast of American Cars and Racing.com, and we've got a lot to talk about today.
Mustangs, minivans, if you can believe that.
Some new electric American cars, and of course we're going to wrap up the first weekend
in Formula One for our favorite American brands, Ford and Cadillac, and of course with me to talk
about all this is my co-host, Alex Nunez. Hello Alex. Hello Gary, good to be here.
So we all know you are America's premier 2006 Mustang convertible influencer and we know
you love Mustang. Big Mustang news this week. We found out finally the price of the new Mustang
Dark Horse SC, the supercharged version of the Dark Horse, was an official, it was information
that leaked online which forced Ford's hands to release the pricing. The vehicles were revealed
back in Detroit in January, but here's what it's at. Base price, $103,000 with the track pack,
$140,000, and of course they're doing a special launch edition, $170,000. That's track pack
with carbon fiber parts and hand painted stripes. Just to recap the Dark Horse SC, essentially
the successor to the 2022 Shelby GT500, it's got the same 5.2 liter supercharged V8. A couple
upgrades as far as the performance is concerned, but it also has the 7-speed dual clutch transmission
and the Magna Ride shock absorbers. That one had a base price under $80,000, so this is a pretty
big jump in those couple of years. Do you think they're shooting too high with the Dark Horse SC?
Alex, or is this where we're at now for a performance vehicle? It's where we're at.
You know, if you're going to complain about what it costs, you're not the customer. Like,
honestly, that's really what it all boils down to. Not surprised at all at the price range.
That's what it's going to cost for something that has big power like this, that has an
audience that is going to jump at it and just pay the money. You know, it's the same thing.
It's like, same people complain, oh, the Corvette, the high end Corvettes are
well over $100,000 too. Yes, and there is an audience for it. So I find none of it surprising.
The reality is you can get into plenty of trouble in the Mustang. Any of the myriad
you know, builds that you can create that fall below Dark Horse SC. So not really surprised.
This is just where we are right now. High end vehicles are going to be expensive,
as we've discussed many times, you know, on the show in the past. Nothing is truly inexpensive
anymore in terms of new cars. So the higher you climb the ladder, the more it's going to be. So
I don't think Ford's going to have, I have no idea what the sales forecasts are, you know,
Ford, obviously, but I don't think they're going to have trouble finding the audience that they
know is there. You know, these decisions don't happen in a vacuum. One mystery that still remains
is how much power this has. The Shelby GT 500 had 760 horsepower. Of course, we have the Mustang
GTD, which uses an even more awesome version of this engine at 815 horsepower. That's very modified
from this one. You kind of think they probably don't want to give it more than 815 horsepower
just because of that GTD that they got itself for $327,000. But I don't know, is it going to be
800? Is it going to be 780? Where do you think it's going to fall? I don't think that they
broach 800 for the very reason that you said. I mean, that, once you get up there, now you're,
now you're playing in the pool of your, you know, your super high end vehicle. The reality is this,
it doesn't matter what the horsepower number is. It's going to be some insane number from,
as a practical matter, it's going to be 100 times quicker on the street than, you know,
it actually needs to be. It's going to be plenty of fun. I'm sure it's going to be great stoplight,
stoplight car. I'm sure it's going to be fun on the track. It's not going to be what the GTD is,
because the GTD is as close to a modern homologation special as you get. So there's a very different
approach to that. And I don't think even if they were to give it gobs of power, I don't think it's
going to out handle, you know, GTD on a road course, you know, if you want to, you know,
get into the weeds. But long story long, I don't think they're going to create that problem for
themselves where it has similar power to the GTD. That would just cut off the GTD at the ankles,
at least the sort of aura and narrative or rabbit. One thing I have to point about it,
that $170,000 version with the hand painted graphics on the GT 500, the Shelby GT 500,
it had hand painted stripes as an option. They were $10,000. The numbers sounded ridiculous
when you heard it, really 10 grand for stripes. But I have to tell you, when you saw those in
person, they looked so much better than decal stripes. Like I couldn't even, after seeing that,
I couldn't even consider buying a car with decal stripes. They ruined it for me.
People will pay for the things that they want to pay for. There is an audience for this car
at the price range that has been confirmed. Beginning, middle, and end.
Of course, if you prefer, you could still get a real deal Shelby from Shelby American,
which is also building more performance trucks these days. And it just announced the creation
of Shelby Performance to help grow that side of the business and joining us now to talk about all
that is the president of Shelby American, Gary Patterson. Good to see you, man. Good to see you,
Gary. So tell me about Shelby Performance and why you need this addition of the company
to build these trucks you're building these days. Well, we wanted to reunite the original team.
Back in 2015, 2014 time period, Jeff Birchell, who was one of the founders of the Tuscany along
with Mike Graber, I ran into Jeff. It was kind of set up for us by the BF Goodrich team and Joe
Entoronte and so forth. And so we were able to get together. We rode together in a buggy
down in Mexico and ran about 300 miles of the Baja, not the official, but the track anyway,
but not part of their actual race. But we had a great time and we started brainstorming with
things and, you know, they had a great team of people there and so we had them build the trucks.
So that changed a little bit 2017, but we really wanted to reunite the old team. We liked the way
they did business and took care of customers and customer service. They liked, you know,
the quality of workmanship and things like that. We wanted to, you know, rebirth the company with
some new components like the king shocks and the suspension and stuff like that. So we're
real excited about that. And taking the business to a new level and Carol Shelby's favorite thing
was always the next one. So we're on to the next one here. One of your new truck miles is the F
250 Super Baja diesel $160,000 to start. How many of these Shelby trucks are you selling these days
every year? Good thing is when we started the truck business with these guys back in 15, you know,
we were doing basically a one truck. It was a 150 raised truck and it was hugely popular.
But what we've also found is some of our customers like towing heavy loads or they'd
rather get in a truck that's not so high and they'd rather run around on the street mostly and so
they didn't need all the lifted part of it. And so there's different flavors of the ice cream,
right? I mean, I like ice cream, but I don't always like chocolate or vanilla or strawberry or
raspberry. I like them all, but maybe I'm in the mood for something different or my need is something
different. And so, you know, we did that and as a result of that, yeah, we're gonna climb into
what we're doing 1600 or so of those various things throughout the year. You know, the 250 part,
you know, that may only be 250 units. You know, with the 150s, there's more people that like that
truck, not as big, rides a little smoother and doesn't necessarily tow as much, but that's okay.
Most people don't need to tow, you know, 25,000 pounds. Like I said, there's different flavors
for different things and different applications. So we've got a truck for you, right? We've done
the short box single cabs and stuff in the past and one could speculate, right? We actually teased
that at the Barrett Jackson in January in Scottsdale. So you can bet that, you know, if you like to go
zero to 60 in a pickup truck in under three and a half seconds, oh yeah. You know, it's good news
for you that Ford is sticking with the Mustang. Chevy doesn't make the Camaro anymore. Dodge,
at least right now, isn't making V8 chargers. But that said, while you do all the Mustang still,
are you seeing the market shift more toward trucks these days? Is that really where it's heading?
Or are these two different businesses and the trucks are an expansion? What we've seen is kind
of a little bit of shifting around. I mean, at 1.2 or 3 years ago, trucks were like 75, 80% of our
business. We're actually, you know, expanding our Mustang line and trying new flavors of the ice cream
there as well. And so what we're seeing is people like the small niche run, very exclusive, you
know, vehicles that we build. And they're certainly not just stickers and scoops. When you look under
the hood and it's not just under the hood, but if you look under the chassis and we talked about
the trucks and suspension and things like that, there's a whole lot of meat and potatoes. It's
not just stickers and scoops. So it comes with a big price, but at the same time, it's also
big performance. Are the truck Shelby buyers also Shelby Mustang buyers or these two different
kind of customer? Well, we do have a lot of people that have both, which is really neat. And they
trust Shelby brand to bring, you know, maximum performance to either one of those product
lines and how many people do own trucks and cars, right? So Mustang's a performance vehicle.
I've been a Mustang guy since my dad bought one brand new and in the middle of 1964.
Wow. One of the originals. Yeah. Well, my first car was also, I bought it used with money I made
mowing lawns of 69 Mach 1 428 Cobra Jet. I still have that car, believe it or not, over 50 years
later. Wow. So that's pretty cool. And you know, it's neat to be a part of that. So I've been a
Mustang guy, but you know, I have a truck too, right? So you got to have trucks, you got to have
cars. A lot of our customers have both. You know, many of the people that we do business with also
own businesses. And, you know, so they have a need for a truck and, you know, they can write that
off too. So it's pretty cool. There are a lot of performance builders that work on Mustangs and
Ford pickups. Are you competing with them or are the customers brand loyal for Shelby? Or do you
have to convince them to not go by their souped up Mustang from somebody else? You know, the good
thing is performance speaks to itself. So people are come to expect, you know, from Shelby that
they're going to get kind of the pinnacle of that performance. So they do come to us because of the
brand. But at the end of the day, the brand is only as good as the content and the performance. So
you got to have all that to back it up. And there's clearly a market out there for, you know, those in
the business that do stickers and scoops. It does differentiate their product or their vehicle from
their neighbors. But we go far beyond that. With most of our public line, we've got a great deal
of content. And it's not for everybody. And not everybody's in the market to afford it. But
those were always, Shelby was always an aspirational brand. It was for me. It is for most people.
But, you know, when you really want to look at that, then you say, okay, I'm buying a Shelby,
what do I get for it? And you got to be able to tell that story. And it is more than stickers and
scoops. It's, you know, if I go out and take a picture in the shop right now, you'll see virtually
the whole front ends are apart off the Mustangs that we're building here. So fenders and hoods and
front faces and grills and radiators and all this kind of stuff is laying on the ground because we
have new parts that are going to go on these trucks are a little different flavor. But, you
know, you look at bumpers and lights and suspension and all that, all of a sudden that truck comes
clear apart too. So there's a lot that goes into these, but there's a lot of performance that goes
with it as well as, you know, some things that we're also proud of is all your touch points. So
when you sit in the vehicle and what do you see? What do you feel? You can tell this is a different
vehicle. So, and it's not just your recovered seats. We've designed those and everything,
but they also pass Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. So the airbags still deploy the way
they should and things like that. So this really becomes the whole package where, you know, when
we used to modify vehicles long time ago, you didn't have to worry about this computer talking to
this computer talking to this computer. You didn't have to worry about all the safety issues and
things like that. But we make sure that these vehicles are safety compliant and also environmentally
compliant with the emission standards and so forth. I've seen your development center there
in Las Vegas. Is that where the trucks are going to be engineered or is Shelby Performance's
location in Indiana going to have something like that too? Or is that really more of a
build center? No, it's actually, what we do there is it's a nice partnership with them.
So we lead on design, but they have a lot of input and design. We get back with the customers
and we've got a great market strategist group now, regional people that interact with the
dealers and we're trying to get and we're actually, we're actually down in Florida right now at
Shelby American and we're working with our market strategist down there and the dealers
and we're saying, okay, what are you seeing? What would you like? What do you like? What do you
don't? And we make sure that those kind of things are incorporated in new vehicle programs. So while
the trucks are all built right now in Bristol, Indiana, we do some design work with those in
conjunction with Bristol right here in Las Vegas, but the trucks will be built in Bristol, Indiana.
Shelby is very popular among traditional muscle car fans. You know, you've been around for half
a century. What are you doing to attract and reach younger performance vehicle buyers? Yeah, so we
go to shows and events. We're playing around with different things too, like, you know, fuel
fast and Mustang week and we're getting out there and we're putting butts in seats too. So when we
go to events, we put the people in the cars. So whether you're young or old, you're sitting in
a seat and you get to go for a ride. And that's pretty cool. But we also mix it up with the people
and we listen to them. What would you like? What do you want to see? And not everybody wants the
same thing, which is great. That's why other people may attract those. But we're getting a lot of
people that are younger that really have understood the Shelby brand. I think the movie Ford versus
Ferrari helped a lot with that. Did that give you a boost? It did. You know, I mean, it took the
people that were at the time, you know, under 45 that didn't understand. They understood there was a
Shelby, but they didn't understand the significance of it until they understood a little bit more of
the history. But it's not just about history. We're clearly at the forefront of, you know,
developing new vehicles, whether they are cars or trucks. And, you know, right now, today,
my counterpart, Vince Leviolet, is out as a racetrack right now. And we're validating performance
and testing performance on not only existing models, but new models. And we keep pushing the
envelope. So that way our cars continue to perform at the very top, top level. Good friend of mine
just saw Ford versus Ferrari for the first time. He's not really a car guy, but he texted me,
why didn't you tell him about this movie? This is great. I love the story. This is the coolest
thing ever Shelby. So I guess it really is something that connects with people still.
One of your new models that I love the looks of, haven't seen in person yet though,
is the Mustang GT350R. Pretty classic Shelby spec. I know you were talking about building a
version of that that would actually be able to compete in the Trans Am racing series. Is that
still coming together? Yeah, that's coming together nicely. So, you know, stay tuned for later this
year. We said, when we announced that it was going to be a development program for a while,
that is under development still, but we're getting close. And that's exciting. And, you know,
the other thing that we've done is we've got the partnership with Shelby Performance, but we've
also got with, you know, Attorney Key Motorsports. And we've also got TDM that builds our GT350s,
just real close to the Flat Rock plant. So we've got business in there and we partner
with people that we're very comfortable with and we make sure that they share the same passion for
quality and workmanship and so forth as we do here in Las Vegas. So that's really good. And the new,
the GT350R is what we did with the TKM last year. They're building the GT350TA this year. And that's
basically stands for Trans Am. We've been working with Aaron Caldwell there in Trans Am. And
really getting his input on what he'd like to see because we celebrated 60 years of working with
Trans Am this year. So long before there was a Firebird or a Trans Am Firebird, there was Shelby
competing in Trans Am. So some people are like, well, why is that? That's why we have a Trans Am.
And Trans Am, the organization itself is very much behind what we're doing today and very excited
about what we're doing. Which one of the classes is the car going to be built for? So we're playing
with two different ones. So stay tuned. Stay tuned for that. Well, we love Trans Am here at the gas.
Trans Am is going to be real cool. Yeah, we just had Adam Andretti on a couple of weeks ago. He's
one of our favorite guests, one of the guys who races in TA1. And well, he'll drive anything. We're
talking about his NASCAR truck series debut, but he is a stalwart on the Trans Am series. And as you
said, that really ties back to the origins of Shelby. I think a lot of people who don't know
about it might think of these muscle cars as being drag racers. But that's really not what Shelby
was ever really about. Yeah, we certainly had some purpose built drag cars, but not very often.
Most of the cars that we had, and really where the DNA started, was with Carroll Shelby. And he
was obviously a road racer and won the 24 Hours of Le Mans and many other things. And he was even
driver of the year, whatever, with the sports illustrated, I think in 1959 or 60. So pretty
neat stuff. We want the car to be able to do more than just one trick. There's times when you
purpose build a car for drag racing or road racing or whatever. But most of our products,
they kind of cross the line and you can do multiple things with them. So if you look at our trucks,
you know, they're capable off-road and on-road with most of the product line. So that's pretty cool too.
All right, Gary Patterson, President of Shelby American. I got to get out to Las Vegas and
come knocking on your door one of these days and try some of these new cars.
Well, Gary, you're always welcome here in Las Vegas. And that's really the headquarters. But if
you happen to be in Michigan, or if you want to take a trip to Indiana, we'd love to have you.
Sounds great. You have a great week. I will talk to you soon.
All right. Thanks, Gary. Alex, it is pretty impressive how enduring the Shelby brand has
been for 50, 60 years now. Well, yeah, I mean, that's what happens when it comes from this
origin story that, you know, has a very charismatic personality and all kinds of like sort of racing
authenticity. And that has real staying power. The cars have always been visually interesting,
cool, fast, whatever you want to call it. The fact that the Shelby American has expanded this into
trucks and found, as we all know, we live in the truck country, right? That there is obviously a
very happy and willing audience for that. And I feel like they've done a good job of maintaining
this sort of thread all the way through and expanding beyond, you know, that you can still
buy this sort of repro cobras, obviously from them and their range of Mustangs. But the,
you know, the trucks opens it up even wider. And we all know that there is almost unlimited
demand for, you know, among certain truck buyers to go ham on what they're willing to pay for,
you know, for a truck, whether they're, you know, buying a high end factory thing,
or they're doing something that's aftermarket like this, or they're, or if they're just spending
money in the aftermarket on their own, make it something their own. So it's a great story.
It's a cool brand. This is a cool truck. It's kind of all of the things, right? It's here's a Shelby,
here's a super duty, you know, Ford, and we're going to build, you know, 250 of these things.
And I'm sure they'll sell all 250. I see these around New York even cruising around. It's pretty
impressive. Just the kind of market they've been able to reach with this. But shifting gears now
from Mustangs to minivans. This is like the biggest week in minivan news, I think in years,
maybe even forever, three new minivans popping up this week. Not all new. The first one, of course,
is the redesigned Chrysler Pacifica. So last year, minivan sales in the US popped 20%,
just under 400,000, you know, back in 2000, they were selling 1.3 million a year.
Minivans are not back per se, as some people like to say. But they are still, yeah, they've got that
solid little niche. And the only four of them on sale, Kia Toyota Honda, and of course, Chrysler
Christ is the best seller, 110,000 last year. Current Pacifica has been on sale since 2017.
This is its second styling update, not really changing too much. Also, though they did get rid
of the plug-in hybrid version, along with all the Stellantis plug-in hybrids. But it's amazing that
this brand has been cruising along for a couple of years now with only the Pacifica and its lineup
at 110,000 a year. That outsells some entire other foreign brands in the US. Listen, it sells
because it's really good at what it does. And that's what all, this is all the family-oriented
minivan, what you're talking about, Pacifica or Odyssey or Sienna or, you know, even the Kia,
the Carnival. I don't think that there is a sort of product category that more closely
understands the target buyer than the product teams that are doing the minivan stuff. And
the Chrysler minivans are really good. You don't have to change a whole lot. So that's
where you're going to get this facelift. And it's going to continue to, you know, sell in exactly
those kinds of volumes that it has. And everyone's going to be very happy about it. I think I made
a joke with you. I don't remember if it was here or offline or what, but it's like, this is going
to be like the LX platform of family vehicles. You know, they will, Stellantis will have this
thing for as long as they can before they have to redesign it. I love the innovation in the
minivan segment. You know, things like the Stone Go Seats that fall on the floor, built-in vacuum
cleaners. Fantastic. They've got the fan cam. It's a camera that you could watch the back to,
Rosa, to keep an eye on things. I mean, and it's real bad. It's almost like what you see in the
pickup truck segment, but all family oriented features, but they really go to town and Chrysler
defends this with its life because it knows it started it, it started the segment, and
it will never give up being the king of this segment. That's a great comparison also,
like talking about the way that the companies that are building trucks, like they know that
audience, it's really, that is a great parallel to draw. Like if you have ever had to like move a
kid into college or something and you scored the minivan at the rental counter instead of like an
SUV, it's like a miracle happens. You know, when you realize that you could do in like two trips,
what would have taken five, you know, you know, otherwise. I think the update looks cool. I love
the vans. I don't think they're going anywhere. This is a winner, period. They're not going anywhere.
In fact, the Pacific is going to be getting some competition in the form of a sibling rivalry next
year. When Ram brings back the Promaster City commercial minivan, you know, Ford and GM got
out of this segment. So to Ram, they had the Promaster City a couple years ago, stopped selling
it in 2022. It's bringing it back for 2027, but this time around, it's a little bigger. It's going
to start under $40,000. It's going to be able to tow 2000 pounds, haul 2000 pounds. The cargo space
is big enough to fit a 4x8 sheet of plywood now with the door closed, two pallets, very
commercial oriented, although they will have a passenger van version. It would be interesting
to see if anybody buys the passenger van version of this instead of the Pacifica, or if this is
just a total expansion of the minivan segment for the Stolanus Marans. I feel like the passenger
van version of it will have a different target audience. It'll be like more for commercial,
you know, airport shuttles and things like that. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's what that's for.
And you'll find that, you know, audience there is going to ride like a van, like a van. It's not
going to be all trucky feeling. Just go where the audience is. And this makes total sense for
Ram. And it got the segment to itself at least for a couple of years. I got to think Ford's going
to get back into this at some point, but it also helps Ram fill that gap that it has in its lineup
since it doesn't currently have a midsize pickup, although there is a new decode in the works,
but that's still two or three years away. Right. Of course, on the complete other end of the minivan
segment, Mercedes Benz is going to be coming to the US next year with a new model called the VLE,
which is an all electric luxury minivan that it would prefer you call a grand limousine.
But let's be honest, it's got sliding doors and it's definitely a minivan, although it's actually
a little bigger than the Pacifica. We're expecting this to be about $80,000 to start 350 miles of
range. Alex, this sort of thing is popular in Asia and Europe, the luxury minivans. They definitely
have a lot more of that going on, not so much for families, more for like VIPs, hasn't really hit here
in the US. But when you see it in the flesh, they make so much more sense than SUV. You could put
the big reclining chairs in there, the giant TV. This one has a 31 inch drop down screen for the
second row. You can configure the seats so they face each other and like a lounge set up air
suspension. They're also thrown on this. So, you know, it's going to have a great ride. The interior
is as nice as the Mercedes S class, but I don't know. Still though, it's got the minivan stigma.
I wonder how many they're even expecting to sell in the US and if it'll be a hit.
I wonder if this is Mercedes seeing an opportunity with a vehicle that has already demonstrated
or a vehicle type that has already demonstrated its value in other markets as a de facto limo.
But what I see is Mercedes looks at all these aftermarket companies that take sprinters and
upfit them into effectively what this vehicle is supposed to be and they can just sell it direct
to the same customers. So, I wonder if that's what it is. The market for vans as luxury
transportation exists in any big city. Look at the sprinter at the sprinters that the high rollers
are getting out of. This is a market that exists. This is Mercedes offering a straight from the
factory option that is probably going to ride better than, you know, the sprinters. And it's
also sized better for, especially for, you know, urban use. Of course, the electric car market in
the US is in a lot of flux, but we just got details on probably the most important electric vehicle
that's launching this year, the new Rivian R2, their new compact SUV model that's going to be
going up against the Tesla Model Y, but with a more off-roady style that basically looks like a
shrunken version of the Rivian R1. First miles that go on sale this year, $58,000,
$656 horsepower because the electric launch cars need ridiculous amounts of horsepower.
330 miles of range. We're going to follow that up with 345 mile version at $48,000 and then late
next year $45,000 for a rear wheel drive with 275 miles of range. Now, comparing this to the Model
Y, you can get one of those now with rear wheel drive for 40 grand, 321 miles and 50 grand for
all wheel drive and 327 miles of range. Obviously not off-road oriented at all, but that is still
king of the electric cars and it's not even close. You know, the Rivian R2, it just seems like if it
launched last year or the year before or if the tax credits were still in effect, would be one of
the best selling cars in America. It just hits that off-roady adventure styling niche plus the
electric side of things. But I'm just wondering right now, especially coming at these price points,
if it's going to be the killer hit that it could have been or if the boats sailed and it's maybe
in a little bit of trouble now. I wonder if the ship has indeed sailed. If this was the launch
vehicle for Rivian instead of the R1, absolute bonanza, probably sort of Tesla style saturation,
you know, when it came out. It dog walks the Model Y in terms of styling and all that stuff. I mean,
I love the Rivians. They turn heads. I look twice every time I see one. The market is going to determine
not artificially the success or failure of the R2. I mean, it's obviously great looking. I mean,
the pricing is what it is. The later arriving ones with more range and a lower MSRP are playing in
a pool that is still very active in terms of the marketplace. That's a good place to be. So,
again, we're going to see right away what the market actually thinks of Rivian moving down
market. I mean, the styling is totally a success. I mean, it is a smaller R1. I mean, it's identical
styling. I read somewhere that R1 styling was actually derived from this, which really
stuff too. Yeah, I think that in a perfect world, this would have come before. There's other EVs
where I've heard anecdotally where you see something come out and then you see a second model come out
and like, oh, very similar. It's like, yeah, actually, because the secondary model is the
lead in terms of design that influenced the one that actually came first. And it's just a matter
of timing and stuff. EV market is very weird right now. It's how good is it. If it's really great,
it's going to be irrelevant that there aren't subsidies or whatever. You see that with other
brands. You see that with Tesla, you see with everybody. They seem positioned to compete
price-wise correctly. Like I said, I think they have a killer app in terms of design,
you know, something that people are going to be really enjoying looking at in their garage and
their drive and whatnot. So let's see what happens. I am well past trying to predict,
but the EV market, as you've seen, especially this week, is chaotic at best.
It's definitely going to be the bellwether. It's got the looks. It's got the buzz. It's got the
specifications. It's got the off-road styling. If this doesn't succeed to some level, I don't know.
They're going to sell $200,000 a year. They're going to sell $50,000 a year. If it doesn't succeed
at some level, I don't think there's hope for many other companies. Another one of those companies
that's going to be competing in this compact SUV space later this year is Lucid. They've got a
couple of new models, it turns out, coming along. They've got a mid-sized platform that everybody
is expecting to be one vehicle, but they're going to be launching three called the Cosmos,
the Earth, and another one they haven't announced the name yet. Each one of them is going to have
different body styling and they'll go from street performance to off-road adventure spec.
First one's going to go on sale later this year. Eventually, they're hoping to price them for less
than $50,000. They haven't announced the pricing for the launch model that's going on sale, but here's
the interesting thing about these. Lucid is based in the US, has a factory in Arizona, but it also
has a factory in Saudi Arabia where it currently builds knockdown kits of its models. It sends
the parts there, they assemble them there, and then they sell them in that market. But for this new
mid-sized model, it's going to first enter production in Saudi Arabia and get shipped
to the US, and then later they're going to add it to the Arizona plant. They'll also be selling it
in other markets around the world. That's going to be really interesting to see how the market reacts
to, I guess this is the first car imported from Saudi Arabia to the US, although it is with a
US brand. Of course, that gets a lot of investment from Saudi Arabia as well.
Listen, the reality is most people don't even know where the hell their car is built.
We are not representative of the average car buyer who is walking into
any showroom. The average person doesn't know, doesn't care if they like the car or if it's
priced right there, good to jump on. I guarantee you there were people that were driving Buick
Invisions ahead. No idea the thing was built entirely in China and imported here. Let's see
what the market does. These EVs have to overcome other stuff now and compete on the quality of the
product, which is as it should be, frankly. If they're good, they'll do well. Same thing with
the Rivian, same thing with everybody that drops a new EV into the market. But you could also be
like companies like Honda that take a look at things and are like, you know what, we are going
to take a bath here now and in the hopes that we can avoid a much bigger problem down the road.
Honda dropping three planned US-built electric vehicles that were supposed to start going on
sale this year. We're talking billions of dollars. They just rode off to kill this program and focus
on gas and hybrid vehicles. It's interesting that they made a point that it's interesting to see
Honda make this call while Toyota and Subaru continue to push forward with their new EV lineups.
Honda obviously read some tea leaves and said, this is bad idea. And my point of view is it's
not like Honda isn't going to find great use for the manufacturing capacity that would have been
dedicated to these vehicles and probably be able to sell vehicles that have a more ready and willing
customer. It certainly builds the Accord and the Integra at the same factory that they were setting
up the electric vehicle production at. So expect to see more of those on the road. And now I'm
going to be interested to see if Honda sticks out this Formula One thing because it's not starting
off too well for them with Aston Martin. They've been having a lot of technical issues. But just
as a quick recap to the Formula One season kickoff in Australia, we've got to talk about Ford
and Cadillac, how they did there as well. Interesting, both teams, Cadillac and the
flagship Red Bull team both had one DNF and one finish. In the case of Cadillac, the finish
was Sergio Perez who came in 16th, three laps down. I think he was the last car that was still
running at the end. While Max Verstappen in the Red Bull, Ford drove from 20th on the starting
grid to finish 6th. So Ford looking a little bit better there, plus the racing bulls using
the Ford motors finished 8th and 13th in the race. Going into China this weekend as we speak,
they just wrapped up qualifying for the sprint race and Cadillac came in dead last. One of the
cars didn't even put down a time and had a battery issue. The other one had a fuel system issue
and put down a pretty slow time. It's just interesting to see Cadillac struggling so much
still when you've got Haas using the same Ferrari-sourced engine finishing 7th and 11th
at Australia. Now I know that's a team that's been around for 10 years, but still it seems like this
is less about the Cadillac chassis and more about the power unit. And I kind of feel like
they have the engineering might to figure this out. I didn't expect them to be a front runner,
but to see them this far back even now is a little bit surprising to me.
I didn't really have high expectations for Cadillac at all coming in. Brand new team put together
fairly quickly considering all the drama that surrounded the brand's entry into Formula One.
They're not the only ones with problems in Formula One. There's a particularly visible and bad
because it's a high profile brand new OEM in Formula One. The S to Martin problems are a mess.
I would say we're about a month away from seeing what everybody actually has as they still sort
through figuring out how to best deploy this new Formula. And it sounds like this weekend they're
going to cancel the two Middle Eastern races as well. So there's another gap that's going to get
thrown into the schedule. And everyone's probably going to update the rules because these new power
units aren't working out that way. Everybody hates them. Everybody hates them. Fans don't like them.
I know that it was juicy to watch the opening laps of the race where it was like passing like
you were watching IndyCar. All of a sudden there's all this overtaking and passing,
but in the end it's not what I think anybody wants. So they've got problems to solve and figure
out. Fortunately, the Formula One season is endless and there is time for stuff to change.
Listen, if nothing else is going to be very interesting and there'll be all kinds of drama
and X and all the other social platforms are going to be full of people yelling and screaming
about stuff and be very entertaining. Are we going to still watch the races? Yeah, we're just
many question marks. It means that from the mid-pack back, there's a bunch of interesting
stuff that can still happen. Mercedes looks like it's got its act together and are the team to be,
you know, as a lot of people predicted. Ferrari looked, you know, fairly promising. Max is Max,
but you know, Hadjar looked good in qualifying. You know, that car caught fire. So I mean,
there's so much of the season still to come. We'll see what happens. One would hope to see
some growth. And I think that that's really all Cadillac can really hope for. Nobody expected
Cadillac to go in there and contend. Let's see if they are able to have both cars fit by, you know,
mid-season toward, you know, let's have both cars finishing the race, not laps down and take things
that, you know, step by step. The rest of the guys, you know, the established players apart from
Aston Martin seem like they're all going to be shuttling around in competition for the points
positions. Aston Martin is in pretty bad shape too. That one's kind of a big surprise for me.
We've got two certain races coming up, China and Japan, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia then will probably
get canceled as you mentioned. And then we're in Miami for the first of May. So hopefully the U.S.
teams will have their act together by then. Listen, thanks again to Gary Patterson for joining
us today. Good to talk to you, Alex. And folks, we'll talk to you next week on The Gas.
The Gas is a production of A-car, media and American cars and recent.com.
About this episode
The discussion covers Shelby American's expanding truck business and the high pricing of the new Mustang Dark Horse SC, highlighting its performance upgrades and market positioning. Shelby's president, Gary Patterson, shares insights on their truck lineup, customer base, and ongoing projects like the GT350R for Trans Am racing. The hosts also explore the evolving minivan market with updates on the Chrysler Pacifica, Ram's Promaster City return, and Mercedes' luxury electric minivan. Additionally, they analyze the competitive electric SUV segment with Rivian's R2 and Lucid's upcoming models, Honda's EV program cancellation, and the challenges faced by Ford and Cadillac in the current Formula One season.
Shelby American President Gary Patterson joins Gary and Alex to talk about the new Shelby Performance operation that will be cranking out hundreds of pickups every year; Ford reveals the price for the Mustang Dark Horse SC; Rivian does the same for the R2; and minivans are having a moment in the U.S.
