Smart Driving Cars episode 404 with special guests from ITN America

It's the smart driving cars podcast. We are glad you have found us again. I'm Frit Fischken

along with the faculty chair of autonomous vehicle engineering at Princeton University,

Alan Kornhauser. Hi, Alan. Hey, good afternoon, Fred. Good afternoon. It's been a very interesting

year with some long awaited progress when it comes to providing mobility, rides to people

who really need them. And that has been a focus for decades at ITN America, the first and only

national nonprofit transportation network for older adults and people with mobility challenges.

And with us from Maine is the founder and CEO, Catherine Freund, and another special guest,

Marianne Sturtevant. Hi, Catherine and Marianne. Hi. It is really great to see you both. So,

let's start with some background, Catherine, and Marianne's history with you as well.

Well, why don't I let Marianne tell you her history with us? She can tell the story much better than

I can. Well, I've written with you people I think for 30 years, maybe a little longer. And I've been

left at the place where they were supposed to pick me up. This is in the beginning. And I might be

waiting 20 minutes or something. Only once did they ever forget me. But outside of that, now,

it's just like it's creamed to the crop when asked for a ride at a certain time. That's when the

ride is there. And they take it and they're very kind and nice drivers. And you laugh at this only

one time in my experience, if I had a driver that I would not like to drive with again. And it

wasn't his driving ability. But anyway, I really enjoy the service because I've never driven in

my life. And if I want to go somewhere, who do I call ITN? And then of course, I do like to help

them too. And I do finish up their bills and mail them for them each month as long as I'm around.

And how many years have you been volunteering to help us?

A little over 30.

No, volunteering to send the bills out.

Oh, probably 20, 15 maybe?

That sounds right.

Yeah, 15 to 20. I can't remember exactly when. And so it's a very interesting organization to work for.

I don't really work for them. I just help them. So it makes a big difference. And there are people

that work for them. I've always enjoyed them. They're kind. And they try to do their jobs very

efficiently. And they run into a lot of snags. And I understand that I've worked in an office for

many years.

Well, Catherine, I think before we have Alan jump in here, because he's anxious to jump right in.

I am anxious to jump in.

Explain to our audience a little more fully exactly what ITN America is and how you've

been able to provide mobility to people who need it.

Okay, sure. Fred, thank you. So ITN America stands for Independent Transportation Network of America.

And I guess I developed the ideas for this when I went back to school at I think 40

and studied public policy and looked at the unmet transportation needs of older Americans from,

you know, from an economic perspective, from a legal perspective, every perspective,

public policy is an interdisciplinary degree. So you look at it from all different angles.

And sort of figured out that people were driving cars because they like cars.

And that you could just because you couldn't drive a car anymore past a certain point in your life

didn't mean that you didn't like it and you didn't want to be in it. So we developed the idea of

providing transportation for people in private automobiles. Long before Uber, long before Lyft,

we said, look at all that transportation capacity sitting in driveways.

And how do we convert that into mobility for older people? So we developed a volunteer

transportation model with the idea that if we could make it work here in Portland, Maine,

that we could replicate that in other communities around the country and connect it into a national

network. And that's what we did. And that's what we did. So I got a couple numbers for you here.

We have driven eight and a half million miles. We've provided 1,750,000 rides. Those are door

through door, arm through arm. And we see the median age of the people we serve is 80.

So Marion's a little bit older than that, 19 years older than that. I drive Marion to church on Sundays,

by the way. She's my ride every week. She gets in the front seat and we catch up, right?

When you're going to visit your son, he lives in New Hampshire. How many different organizations

you volunteer for? I'm down to just three now. If she's putting together a bunch of things for

the rummage sale, she'll show me all the different piles. This goes here, this goes here. Anyway,

we've become friends. So we've driven a lot of miles over the years and we've served a lot of

people. Right now, we have over 5,000 people in the system across the country. We've got about 100

nonprofit organizations in our national network and we just added another 50 more. So up to 150 now.

And guess what? I've got a list here for you of fun rides over 30 years. So what do you think is the

most fun ride that people do? Get their hair done. That's it. It's get their hair done. It's over

60,000 rides to take people to get their hair done. And the second most popular ride is going to

exercise. You hear about healthy aging. You hear about aging in place. You hear about people being

lonely and isolated if they haven't got transportation. But if you have good volunteer

transportation, you can get your hair done. You can go to exercise and gambling about 9,000 rides to

gamble over that time. Did they win? I don't know. I just, you know, people have a lot of

stereotypes in their minds about transportation for older people. They think pretty much it's

go to the doctor, go to church. That's it. That's what people have in their heads. But the truth

is that when you're 80 years old, if you liked gambling when you were 25, you still like it

when you're 80, right? And if you care about getting your hair done and looking right, you care

about getting your hair done and looking right for your whole life. You don't just want to go to

the doctor. So it's kind of a well-rounded approach. And that's what we do. That's what we

support. I'm sure happy that I'm not 80. Okay. So therefore, you know, I don't need that. Do I

have hair to get done? Maybe I'm not sure if I have hair to get done. Alan, I think she's got a

story for us about dating also. Oh, no. I certainly don't do any of that. Okay. Go ahead.

Well, this was out in California in Los Angeles. And it was a 90-year-old man

who had found someone he wanted to go out with on match.com.

And so he spoke to the executive director of the ITN out there and said, you know,

I really want to go on a date. But can I use this service to go on a date? She said,

yeah, of course you can. And she drove it. She took him out on his date. I've taken people out

on dates. There was one man he rode with us in the very beginning. And he set up a ride for

his wife and all her friends to go to lunch, right? So I picked him and his wife up. And then we

made a circuit. And we picked up all of her friends and we took them to lunch. And then,

you know, he was in the front seat. He didn't get out of the car. I said, Harry,

aren't you going to lunch? He said, oh, no, I'm the driver.

That's great. Right? I mean, he, of course, I was the driver, but he considered himself

to be the driver. And so he took them where they wanted to go. He didn't have to be in the car.

But he was with them. He took them where they wanted to go. And then I took him home. And that's

kind of, that's the kind of sense of mobility that you really want people to have. That is,

if you're the driver, you're in charge and you're in control. And you're in control of your own

mobility and the people you're giving rides to. And, you know, that independence is something

that matters to people. See? Marianne's shaking her head. It's a big deal. It's a very big deal.

I always say that the things that really matter most are the things, I call them the things that

float in the air, right? That's like things like courage, love, family, neighborhood, the things

that are like clouds, right? They're there, but you can't quite tell what the boundaries are.

You can't, you can't quite hold them in your hand. But those are the things that really matter.

Those are the things that really matter. And that's really what good mobility can provide.

And I think your example with that gentleman, you know, him considering that he is organizing

mobility and a joyful time out for all these ladies, even though he just organized it with you

and you actually did the driving where he couldn't just gave him that sense of achievement that is,

you know, that's, you can't, nobody out there, I don't know of an academic that's out there

measuring that stuff, okay? And this is what ends up being really important in the provision

of this mobility, the freedom, the freedom that those of us that still drive have.

But my goodness, as soon as they take those keys away, whoa, you're done. And I'm going through

this period with my own sister who, I mean, you should not be driving, okay? You're gonna hurt

yourself or somebody else, okay? Come on, get a ride, okay? And trying to make sure she has

home care and let the home care service person give her the ride that she needs. I don't know,

I don't think ITN America is in, is in Shardin, Ohio or Eastern, you know,

Southeastern Cleveland. I doubt it. I don't know how much Uber and Lyft is out there,

but certainly a home caregiver can do that. My sister should not be driving. And but,

boy, she just loves to go to Giant and go take her car there. She loves to go get her hair done,

all these sort of fundamental daily values to improve the person so that they can have a

decent life, right? Right, right, yeah. No, mobility, you know, it's a feeling as much as it's a

capability, right? That's correct. That, that, you know, I think that's what separates us,

the plants and the animals, you know, phylum kingdom, genus order, remember that, you know?

Yeah, yes. Whether or not we want to be separated, I'm not sure we can decide

some other point, okay? Some trees have a heck of a long time and have a lovely life. I don't know.

We're alive and the plants are alive, right? All the plants all over the earth, they're alive,

but they're basically rooted. They're alive and they're still in their quiet. We're alive and

we move and we're noisy. Oh, I'm sorry. And no, it's a very fundamental thing. Movement is a very,

very primal thing. And, and I think that's one of the reasons it matters so much to all of us,

right? You know, our, our freedom lives in that mobility in many ways. So.

Well, I mean, this, this all of course rings in our years too. We're approaching it a little bit

differently. Instead of with the elderly community or people who can't drive because of

physical constraints, really, you should not be driving. We're trying to deal with it with those

who economically find themselves stuck. Okay. Sure, they might be able to walk it, but you know,

how far can you really walk it? And if you're, you have to be far, if you want to go places that

are farther than that, then what about the affordability aspect of this thing? And, you know,

in some places we do have some amount of transit available, and it is very affordable from the

consumers. The problem is it does, if it goes to where you're going, beautiful, great, wonderful,

beautiful. Problem is that where things are laid out, don't necessarily are not on a string.

And at the times when, you know, one is operating along that string. So one needs the kind of service

that you're offering, which is when did the person want to go to where they want to go,

as opposed to who knows who decided that the bus line is going to be down here and whatever,

and so on. I mean, mobility is a two-dimensional spatial problem, not a

one-dimensional problem. And one-dimensional solutions on that two-dimensional spatial

just doesn't cover it well enough. So we're trying to do a better covering.

Spoken like a true professor. You have evolved, Catherine, I think,

into somewhat of a technology company, too, I suppose, out of necessity. Tell us about that.

Sure, but Marion wanted to say something, so I wanted to know.

IGN has given me the opportunity that I can volunteer, and they drive me to wherever I'm

going to volunteer. And last year, I was named Volunteer of the Year for the City of Portland,

Maine, and it was all because I was able to get there.

Well, thank you. Well, that's a pretty solid testimonial.

So to answer your question about technology, I'm going to connect it to something Alan was

just talking about, which is basically mass transit, which moves along routes.

And to make transportation affordable, it has to be efficient. And before the advent of

as much information technology as we currently have, when we just had telegraphs and telephones,

right, that was communication technology, but information technology has really revolutionized

mobility. Because before the current technology, the only way to create efficiency in transportation

was to move a whole bunch of people together along a predetermined route or predetermined schedule.

That's why high occupancy vehicles who bring people together either in airports or at,

you know, for ocean liners or for trains or for buses, right, you bring everybody together

into one place and you put them into one large vehicle and then you have a lower cost per ride

and a more affordable transportation system. That only works where you have high density

populations or where people will come together specifically to get into a high occupancy airplane,

right? But now, because of information technology, we can know where all the vehicles are all

across the map and we can know where the people are and put them together have the, instead of

having the people come to the vehicle, which is mass transportation, we can have the vehicle come

to the person, right? That's how ITN works and that's how Uber and Lyft work, right? So that's

a revolutionary different way to do transportation for the general population. You could always do

transportation. You could have your horse and carriage at your house, right? And that's personal

transportation. You got one vehicle and one family or one person. But the way we can do it now is

the vehicle can be in a completely different place and send it through technology to the person,

right? So it's very different now and we're still experiencing lots and lots and lots of changes

in this model. You know, individual trips remain very, very expensive. That's I think why a lot of

the transportation network companies are moving meals and packages and things like that to make

their business model work because just moving people turns out to be really expensive. Is that

makes sense? Yeah, and are you sure you're not the professor and I'm the student here? That is

like perfect. It is perfect and it is. And really the way you make it, the way you can make it

affordable is because you leverage the volunteer in this whole process and you provide appropriate

incentives and values to the volunteers so that you can do it affordably. And I applaud you for

doing that because it is not easy to be able to find volunteers and have people help. But it

requires a sense of community, a sense of cooperation, which is part of what you've created

in ITN to be able to do that. Well, thank you. We're trying. Most people don't realize this,

you know, you do Alan because you're in the transportation business, but the largest cost

of transportation is not the vehicle. It's not the insurance. It's not the fuel. It's the cost

of the driver. It's labor. And people don't experience that when they're driving their

own car because they don't pay themselves. They just get in the car and they do it. But the hourly

rate, especially with minimum wage going up all over the country,

the cost of labor is the biggest cost in transportation. That's why autonomous vehicles

are going to be so important because that's the other way to reduce or eliminate that cost,

autonomous vehicles. But currently now it's volunteer transportation that makes that

transportation affordable. And so for the market that you have, the volunteer really

serves as an asset to the delivery of the mobility because the person that you are taking really

appreciates the needs that that person to help them or at least make it comfortable for them.

So it's very important that you have that. But for if one goes to the broader transportation market

beyond just the seniors, where people don't really need somebody, then there is an opportunity

to maybe throw more technology into this and provide them also now the high quality

affordable mobility. But your point with affordability is absolutely true.

Two things have made you affordable. One is the ability to have the volunteers. Two is the

technology that you have behind there that allows you to manage the vehicles, the volunteers,

so that they are very productive in that if one looks at somebody working for Uber and Lyft,

they might be getting paid while they're giving the ride. But how long did they sit around and

wait for that ride? And now if it doesn't really matter and they do, but if they're really out

there looking to be able to do it over a substantial period of time and feed their family,

then they have to have rides all the way one after the other. Otherwise they're sitting around

and who's paying them for. And so all of a sudden, if you have them sitting around,

your costs don't even go on high because you've got to pay them for waiting.

Not only for driving, you have to pay them for waiting. And then the technology to not manage

the fleet, manage the volunteers, manage that is critical to having a chance to be able to

provide it affordable. And I think we should mention that, Katherine, you're not just,

you're not there in Portland directing rides all over the country. You are providing the backbone

for others around the country, other organizations to run operations, correct?

Yeah, we have a number of different kinds of technology. We have operational technology

called ITN rides, and it's built specifically for volunteer nonprofit transportation programs.

So it manages volunteers. And it has a number of innovative programs that we've invented

that access resources in many different forms. For example, there are a lot of people who

volunteer to drive other people, whether they're working for a nonprofit or not.

A typical example is you'll have, say, four or five women who are friends,

and one of them drives and the other four don't. And so that one will take all the others,

grocery shopping and to the card game they want to go to or whatever. And then that one person

has a health issue. Maybe it's a stroke, maybe it's a hip replacement, it's something, right?

Well, the whole little system of five people, depending on that one person goes down.

And all of the years that that one person drove all the other people, that labor cost is gone,

it's evaporated. But in a system that says, okay, if you're driving all these other people,

we're going to give you credit for that. And we're going to store it electronically in our

technology. And that's going to become basically transportation Bitcoin, right? It's electronic

currency. We store it in your account. And then when you can't drive, you pull that equity out

and someone else will drive you, right? So that is just beautiful. Okay. Thanks. No, it is. It's

next person comes in there and earns their, they're doing the driving and they're doing the

managing and they're earning their credit and it just allows the whole thing to flow. I mean,

it's beautiful. So I think one of the things we did is we just looked at things differently than

other people were looking at them. We said, here's a car you can no longer drive. Instead of giving

it to your grandchildren, why don't you trade it to pay for your rods, right? And we'll put it

into your personal transportation account. And if you want to volunteer to drive other people as

a volunteer, we'll put all the miles you drive as a credit into your transportation account.

And then you've got electronic equity. You've got a capital asset that's turned into an operating

asset. You could always use cash. We have gift certificate programs to pay for transportation.

You know, by the time you're 80, you probably have probably all the bathrooms and slippers you

need. Okay. That was nasty. That was nasty. I do not want another Hanukkah or another Christmas

gift. I mean, what am I going to do with them? I have stats. But if you couldn't, if you couldn't

drive anymore, would you like a gift certificate to pay for your rides? Hell yeah. Hell, without a

doubt. I mean, take all that stuff coming. I mean, whoa, Elizabeth is just going to throw it away

and when I go in the hole anyway. So come on, whatever. Alan, you're too much. There is another

aspect to this. I think that in some real value that we really we've skirted around a little bit.

And that's the social aspect of this. This is valuable to people not just to go from here to

there, but my assumption is that they get to know the drivers well. And there's a loneliness

epidemic out there that we've all heard so much about. And this is really a social experience

as well, besides going from here to there. I think so. You know, you so you chat with your

drivers, don't you, Marion? Oh, yes. And I know they tell me their life, their home life, their

problems and where they work. And I share it with them. Yeah. And can we how old are you now?

I'm 99. Oh, and a half. Good. So congratulations. I mean, my goodness.

I mean, you put a lot of us to shame. I mean, we're near 99. I'm only 39. So I'm

actually, I celebrated my 43rd, 39th birthday, but never mind. That's another issue.

Just a kid. Well, whatever, congratulations. We look at it as a sense of community. And in fact,

in terms of looking at the affordability piece for where it's basically money is the reason why

people don't have the mobility as opposed to age, which is what we're trying to deal with. We see

the same thing. It's to get your hair done. It's to visit a friend. It's to play cards,

shoot hoops, do whatever across town instead of having to walk it. And the value proposition is

a value proposition of creating a better community and having, you know, happier campers out there

as opposed to, I don't know, I guess it's fun sitting at home watching a screen, but you know,

it gets pretty darn boring after a while. Yeah, no, it's interesting. People don't talk about

mobility very much. And it, well, I call transportation the vascular system of the community.

You know, it connects everything. It connects the people. It connects the organizations. It connects

care to food to everything. And everybody thinks about the destinations, but they completely

forget that it doesn't mean anything if you can't get there. If you can't get there and get there

when you want to get there and when you should get there and that, you know, it's a space time problem.

And if you could move it in time, then yes, you can all can put it all in one vehicle and just

move it to the D, but you can't because simply because there's, there's a certain time when

it's opportune for you to be there when the other people are going to be there to play cards with

you want to, you know, what goes on with that. And you're, you're exactly right. You know,

too much of the mobility is about getting to work and being more efficient and getting to work.

How about just be efficient when you get to work? But how about allowing you to get to work? I mean,

if we look, if we look at the community that we're, we're trying to serve here in Trenton,

you know, being able to get from, from where affordable housing exists to where jobs exist,

you know, and jobs that whatever, you know, they're not along the bus lines. They just aren't,

and some of them aren't great, fantastic, wonderful. Too many of them aren't. And therefore,

if you can't get there, you can't have the job, even though you might be qualified. If you can't

punch in on time in some of these jobs, they're not to, you know, they're not a professor job,

where I can just saunder into my office anytime I want. But, you know, I've led the good life.

Okay. I mean, you got to punch in on time. You don't punch in on time, you get, you get booted.

And so you can't get there on time and get there on time day in and day out. You have no hope.

And so, and so what do you do? End up staying at home. And I mean, it's brutal. So, you know,

this, the providing mobility for just the simple things as well as things that put food on the

table is, is just so important. And it's a shame that we don't do a better job for the people that

are in the most need, one seniors as you do, who can't turn the key or press the button to start

the car anymore, should not, or the people who can't afford it simply because, you know, they

have to feed their families. Well, the site for more information is itnamerica.org. Katherine,

congratulations on all that you've done for decades now. 30 years, boy. We had the 30 years

celebration last month. And Elizabeth and I were pleased to attend. And it was just

such a tribute to you. You deserve it. I mean, you put in the time, okay, without a doubt. And

and tenacity. We applaud you. You're very kind. Thank you. Thank you. And, and Marian, thank you

so much for spending time with us as well. And we wish you a happy birthday in advance. Yeah. Yeah.

And, and, and maybe we should have a big birthday celebration. I mean, we should, we should do a

on your on your birthday. We're gonna get a little cake to do. I mean, oh, I want a big cake.

Well, we need a big cake because we're gonna have a lot of candles. Okay. So that otherwise,

you know, it will be, well, the fire marshal is going to come in if we don't can't spread those

candles out over a big cake. Put one in the middle. Okay. Yeah. Well, that would be in the meantime,

we wish you both a wonderful holiday season. It's going to be beautiful there in Maine. Yeah.

Thank you both very much for inviting us into your podcast. Allen, that was just amazing. But

perhaps another headline for us to touch on here. Tesla is testing driverless robot taxis,

not yet with passengers in Austin, Texas. It's being done with lots of caution and I think a

trailing vehicle, at least for now. Yeah, there may be a trailing vehicle on there. I just saw

the videos, but and I applaud them for having a trailing vehicle because look, if something who

knows what, if a meteorite comes out of the sky or something like that, some and it's not something

that one can handle the extremely rare event, then maybe the folks in the back can

take the hit, not have that car take the hit or something like that. My own personal philosophy

on that is, is I will never test without an attendant behind a wheel. There's just no purpose

in testing without an attendant behind the wheel. If the attendant is not doing anything,

it's essentially the same thing as not having a person in there. But to not have the person in

there when you're in, the reason you take the person out of there is to achieve the affordability

piece so that you can give rides affordably. That's the reason for it. Not to say, hey,

I don't have anybody behind the wheel. What's the societal value proposition on that? Okay,

not at all. The value proposition, the thought is that if you can provide high quality

mobility affordably, then some people will improve their lives because of that. And that's why you're

doing it. And if you can do that and also not require public subsidy to do that, then that would

be fabulous. Because right now, everybody who tries to provide affordable mobility to folks

is so hopelessly bankrupt, requires so much public subsidy to do what they do that the current

situations in which you have to have a person behind the wheel, just don't, there's no hope.

There's no hope to make them. But with the removal of that person behind the wheel,

at least in all of our simulations, whatever good the simulations are, there is hope of doing that.

And out of that hope is the opportunity to improve the quality of lives of a lot of people

who otherwise wouldn't be able to have the mobility that Catherine is providing to seniors.

Okay, it's one thing to do it with seniors, but there are a lot of other folks out there that

could really benefit from that. So I'm tired of repeating it and repeating and repeating and

try to not say it again. That's what I'm trying to do. That's what Elizabeth and I are trying to do,

that what you, Fred, Elizabeth and I together are trying to do in the group that we have together

that are trying to do this. And, you know, we've gone through with handy rides a year, we've learned

an enormous amount, we know that we can do it, we are confident, we're going forward,

we're going to make it happen. For that reason, we're going to provide high quality, affordable

mobility to people who really need a ride and improve their lives.

And you don't have to repeat it because it's in the book, the real book, I mean, it's been the

book, everybody can read it, you know, not a secret. It's not IP, you don't have to be afraid

of it. Ooh, you're stealing my IP. Please do it. Another quick Tesla headline, California is

delaying any plans to stop Tesla sales and manufacturing in the state for 30 days, a penalty

that was suggested by an administrative law judge who found Tesla's naming of auto,

pilot and FSD misled customers or potential customers into believing vehicles were fully

automated. The state is giving Tesla, I think something like 60 days now to fix any deceptive

claims. So there, we don't know if there's going to be any penalty whatsoever. Oh my goodness,

what deception. Oh, I thought it was fully automated. I mean, what are, when are people

going to accept their own responsibility? Okay, I get so many advertisements today on my phone

that tell me about stuff that just isn't true. Okay. And now, oh my goodness. And of course,

if I'm going to be a knowledge jerk and I'm going to try to hop in the back seat and do my stuff,

oh, oh, they didn't tell me. I mean, people get a grip, except some responsibility yourself.

Sorry. I'm surprised you didn't. I'm surprised you didn't mention the ability to drive up the

Great Wall of China or something. I mean, are commercials? Are you kidding? Look at some of

those things and talk about every car, essentially every car commercial has me driving a car

with nobody else around on the streets. Oh my goodness. Oh, you sold me a car and when I buy it,

there'll be nobody else around. Oh my goodness. That's not deceptive. Are you kidding? General

motors? Whatever. What? Finally, Alan, the administrative law judge who did this. I mean,

I guess you can find administrative law judge. Please cut a lot of that because I'm just going

to get myself into trouble. He was brought by this state. Oh my goodness. I guess, you know,

we won't even discuss which party that person was from. Oh my, we can't even discuss that kind of

thing. Cut it out. Finally, Alan, Waymo is in talks to raise more than $15 billion in new funding,

valuing Waymo at more than $100 billion. It's seeking the funding from Alphabet, the parent

company and outside investors as well. You just talked about how much money has been poured into

this. $100 billion. I mean, I guess it is. I guess it is as of today the only company

in the Western world that operates without a driver, without smoke and mirrors.

So therefore, since it is the only, it probably deserves whatever valuation

all the pump and dumpers want to put on it. Okay. So, yeah, sure. And okay.

If it remains the only one, if it remains the only one, then it has 100% of the market.

And whatever. And anything.

Tesla wants to have something to say about that.

Well, who knows? I guess a lot of people might have something to say about that. Maybe Zooks might

have to say something about that. Maybe even, you know, Maybemobility and others and Mobileye and

who knows whom, you know, may have a lot to say about that. Who knows? But hey, whatever. Hey,

Wall Street, go for it. I mean, you know, Venture, go for it. Ooh, whatever.

I buy high, sell low. So, you know, not good for me because this is such an opportunity that

it's not a buy high, sell low opportunity. I only look for buy high, sell lows.

I'm glad you're not my broker. So, well, we want to thank, we want to thank Catherine Freund

from ITN America and Marion for joining us. Really wonderful. And we want to wish everyone

watching or listening. Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, happy New Year, works. Thank you.

Yeah, I gotta go home and light the candles.

Thanks for watching or listening and stay safe.

Smart Driving Cars episode 404 with special guests from ITN America

Tesla

driverless robot taxis

autopilot

FSD

About this episode

Original notes