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Term
autopilot
Autopilot is a Tesla feature that helps the car drive in some situations, like steering and keeping speed. It’s not the same as a self-driving car that can ignore the road—people still have to watch and be ready to take over.
Term
recording
“Recording” here means the car saves data about what happened around the crash. People use it to try to figure out whether the car’s systems or the driver’s inputs were responsible.
Term
accelerator pedal got stuck
If the accelerator pedal gets stuck, the car can keep speeding up even if the driver tries to slow down. People bring this up because it can cause crashes without any driver-assistance system “causing” the problem.
Term
floor mat
A floor mat can sometimes slide and block the pedals. If that happens, the car might not respond normally when you press the brake or try to slow down.
Brand
Tesla
Tesla is a car company that makes electric cars. They also have software that helps with driving, and in this story they’re saying their vehicle logs show what happened.
Term
fsd
FSD (Full Self-Driving) is Tesla’s software package aimed at more automated driving behaviors than basic Autopilot. In this discussion, “supervised FSD” is emphasized—meaning the system can assist, but the driver must remain engaged and can override it.
Term
override
Here, “override” means the driver can interrupt the car’s automated driving by using the controls. The car is supposed to respond to the driver’s pedal input instead of continuing the automated behavior.
Concept
cul-de-sac
A cul-de-sac is a street that dead-ends. It helps describe the setting of the incident—where the car was going and how it could turn or stop.
Term
striping
Striping is the paint lines on the road that show lanes and directions. If the markings are confusing or wrong, drivers—and possibly self-driving systems—can make the wrong choice.
Term
energy absorber
An energy absorber is a safety structure on the road that’s meant to take the “hit” in a crash. It breaks or deforms in a controlled way so the impact is less severe for the people inside the car.
Concept
automation involved
“Automation involved” means a self-driving or driver-assist system was being used. The speaker is saying that even with automation, bad road design or missing safety repairs can still lead to crashes.
Concept
energy absorbing safety features
These are road safety parts meant to lessen injuries if a car hits something on the roadside. The point here is that if one gets damaged, it needs to be fixed quickly—otherwise the next crash may be much worse.
LIVE
Welcome back to the smart driving cars podcast. Thanks for spending time with us once again.
I'm Fred Fishkin along with the faculty chair of autonomous vehicle engineering at Princeton
University. Alan Kornhouser. Hi Alan. Hey good morning Fred. Good morning. It's a summer
edition and things are heating up. Alan in the latest smart driving car newsletter from
TechCrunch. Alan, Trump administration proposes axing brake pedal requirement for AVs in a
boost for Tesla's suit. The content may be interesting but I guess we question perhaps
the way this is written or the headline. Well the headline why is it boost for Tesla's suit?
Why isn't this a boost for people who really need a ride?
For the latent demand, the 100000000 person trips a day that aren't made in the USA
because people don't have access to high quality affordable mobility and don't get the quality
of life that they could. That's the opportunity for AVs. It isn't to boost for Tesla's suit.
It's allowed to have some people out there providing it in vehicles that
well I don't know. Brake pedal, what about the steering wheel? I think they made some
adjustments back in the Biden administration to that. Okay well maybe they made it. I don't
know. Great. When I go on United Airlines and fly someplace there isn't a brake pedal in front
of my seat. I'm getting a ride. Okay when I hop on New Jersey Transit to go to New York
there isn't a brake pedal. I get a ride.
If people are being given a ride why do they need a brake pedal?
And you know people need to ride and again the value proposition of AVs is to improve quality of
life by providing high quality affordable mobility. I mean we've been preaching this.
Michael and I wrote a book about it two years ago. It's Michael Senna. Michael Senna and Elizabeth
and I have been trying to not just talk the talk but walk the walk and providing it to
high quality affordable mobility to entities that whose mission can be better accomplished
they had that kind of mobility. That's what the value of AVs are. It's not to solve the safety
problem. If you want to solve the safety problem stop the misbehavior out there. Stop the people
from speeding. Stop the people from saying to Apple hey I'm not driving when they're driving
so that they can look at their phones. Stop people from drinking and driving.
Allow the elderly to still have a dignified origin to destination mobility
by supervising a vehicle rather than having to every 20 millisecond make sure to the D which
really they can't do that well anymore.
Let's start talking about that as opposed to what and finally we have the Trump administration
to improve the quality of life to millions of Americans
because you know they're going to now allow the technology to actually deliver high quality
affordable mobility to the people who need it most. Who would have thought?
And I guess you can qualify that by saying that that's not an endorsement of all administration
policies. Well no no I'm not even going to say that. I mean come on and you know
but just because some are not good doesn't mean they're all bad. Right that's my point.
Okay well yeah I mean you know and whatever. And along the lines of the point you were making
Alan the Guardian and you have this in the newsletter the Guardian has a piece with this
headline. I was worried of driverless cars and their tech overlords but they could give me a
different future. Interesting piece here. Well again this is coming from somebody who doesn't have
what all those tech droves have which is way too much mobility and way too much money.
The people who you know whose lives could really be improved
if they just had some of this that's what this that's the real value of this
this technology. That's the real opportunity and I am so proud of New Jersey that you know
as of last week we're finally going to start looking at this in that way.
Okay we're not going to exacerbate safety but we're not going to suggest that this is
going to solve the safety problem. The safety problem is a misbehavior problem as I've said.
Okay and you don't cure that misbehavior.
Man you might make a little bit of an advancement.
Well you've given me a perfect segue here Alan when you talk about misbehavior.
You've got a link to a Los Angeles TV news report on photos showing teens riding outside
a Waymo vehicle in Santa Monica and of course some people take misbehavior to an extreme.
The real Achilles heel of Avies is not is not that somehow they will hallucinate.
It's the misbehavior of the humans that are going to be riding in it or the humans that are around it.
I mean to have kids hanging out the window. Maybe it's a fake video. I must be a fake video.
Taking selfies of themselves
to become influencers on the inner tubes. I mean it's just appalling.
One would think the vehicle is watching the passengers.
I think we were sort of told that. I mean I think we're told that you're going to be watched.
I don't know why Waymo wasn't watching. As you said if this is real. Maybe it's not real and sorry.
I mean the reason why I think it might be real is because you know unfortunately
teens have been doing this on the New York City subway system maybe forever.
Okay and you have all kinds of other whatever you know dragging behind a bus and so on that
do being pulled on ski you know you know teens are some of them behave don't.
But what the situation must be and if there's anything about are you going to do any real
help try to help the AV community is we need we really need legislation policy
regulations that basically address the misbehavior. If you're hanging out the window like that
you at least need to have a slap in the wrist or something or at least be talked to I don't know.
Yo and you get to do it once
or maybe twice because you don't want it just once because you're going to get people a second
chance and they they've seen what's what's what they've seen the light in in in blues brothers
see the light great but twice
the toy gets to be taken away you don't get to ride sorry okay
you've got it you've got to behave and and again why didn't Waymo know
geez Waymo could have just closed should have been able to close the windows while they're hanging
out really make sure they're tight in there and don't fall out okay and redirect that vehicle
directly to the police station or juniper now whatever they call it these days
geez when I was growing up they would have sent sent me up river
I think that's what we I forgot maybe I think that's well come on New Jersey it used to be a
Jamesburg they'd send you to Jamesburg if you okay well in Pittsburgh I think they sent us up
river I don't know what the hell at least that's what I think I was afraid of
or something
where their parents need to be whacked
oh of course it's not the parents fault I mean don't blame me
got that but come on
why did Waymo not do that why did not why didn't Waymo Waymo knows who they are
they somehow went onto the Waymo app or something or did they just I don't know they steal it
come on Waymo
I mean this can't become now the normal practice by teenagers or anybody else to get a selfie
to become an influencer if it is then this technology is lost it has no chance to deliver
any societal good no chance
and along those same lines you know anybody who's dealing with legislation on this stuff
needs to be a needs to deal with the insurance fraud aspect
you know these things out there can't be a mechanism by people
that talk about you know providing misinformation to people if all of a sudden this is a way to get
rich quick
that if I have no other way to feed my family I then what would I do of course I jump in front
of one of these I make it look like I fell I make it look like I'm no dummy
but I am a dummy at least I'd be able to feed my family
come on it can't it can't be thought of that that's on that is unfair that's worse than
unfair than calling it autopilot
you know that this set people up that now this is a way to because that's what will happen
I think
well I would think or if I you know if Elizabeth and I go completely bankrupt and you know we're
able to eat that's what I'm gonna do
well as opposed to a driver being behind the wheel most of these all of these vehicles
are recording what's going on around them so maybe it's more difficult but apparently the
recording doesn't matter that didn't one that we we're gonna come to now next or something like
that to crash in Texas right the recording shows a vehicle going fast right I don't know
this is the case let's explain to everybody this is the case from Katie Texas it's getting a lot
of attention the New York Times it's a shame so some some some woman a woman died here this is
this is a shame right and we shouldn't be using it come on New York Times what the heck are you
doing here the headline what are you pushing here let's tell everyone what we're talking about the
headline on June 21st read Tesla driver using autopilot crashes into home killing a woman
officials say Tesla has since responded the time wait for the
response I don't want to hear the responses what the New York Times put out there and what was it
all focused on it must be the technology that did it or the technology somehow got this person to
not really know what it was doing
it looks to me like when I looked at that video that house is right at the end of a cul-de-sac
this vehicle was coming down a cul-de-sac at past not okay the technology might have been broken
and the accelerator pedal got stuck maybe
and if it did just like Toyota how many whatever years ago with with whatever the
stuck accelerator pedal had to
you know reassure people that know it or whatever people were claiming when the floor mat maybe
moved over and actually went over top of the accelerator pedal caused it but of course it
wasn't the driver that did that what that would have not my fault doggie my homework oh and and now
what well to be clear Alan we don't know we have no we don't know what happened here of Tesla
Tesla has responded saying it has data showing the accelerator was floored overriding the the
autopilot or fsd if they have acknowledged the supervised fsd was being used but you
override that when you step on the accelerator what's what's supervised I don't they really say
super I don't know what they say people makes up autopilot people we don't know
okay they're saying it was floored by the driver we don't know what happened we have no way of
knowing you and I but that's that's the case there's we know that if you're in
autopilot or fsd you can override those things by pressing on the accelerator right and if you
press on the accelerator at least every time I've done every time I don't know I guess whenever
I've done it a message comes up says it says the vehicle can't break while you're yeah won't break
you you're the responsible person I guess it says you bought it you have a an operator's license
that says you're responsible I guess we we have to assume you know what you're doing do it
can't keep you from doing it otherwise if we keep you from doing it you're gonna say the thing kept
me from doing take it back I don't want this anymore take it back and so it could have done it itself
but darn it I've I've never seen it do it itself have you Fred absolutely no yeah I don't know
and this 70 apparently 73 miles an hour in what looks like to me and I mean you know they
didn't give the address I don't know I haven't looked at but it looks like it's a cul-de-sac
but boom it's the house at the at the other side of the cul-de-sac
this poor woman well what and now of course and and the article says
tends to imply that oh my goodness
this tends to take the driver's word and then this on this problem this problem and and in
2018 and so they brought they drew they brought back the wine crash of 2018
just to make sure that oh my goodness uh you gotta be what happened in the wine crash
my view hey I get to have an opinion was it the the striping that New Jersey that California DOT
had at that point was totally confusing and in fact two weeks earlier I think
probably confused I would probably I don't know I could have been confused
and rammed into that point
with no automation involved destroyed the the energy absorber
and then two weeks or something like two weeks New Jersey Cal New Jersey California
Department of Transportation found that it just didn't have the time to replace that absorber
and of course the the traffic engineers that design highway engineers designed that who
that's a dangerous point we should have an energy absorber
so when Hawaiian approached that two weeks later
I don't know how the automated or whatever he
but behavior of his car was similar to that of the Honda two weeks earlier
unfortunately there wasn't an energy absorber there and most unfortunately he passed
now you know I don't know I'm sure the NTSB to do a sign blame but da
I think at the time I was I don't
know
they should have asked for a little bit better behavior from California DOT
to first of all at least do the striping properly and secondly you know whenever
energy absorbing safety features are in the highway placed in places where there's some
expectation that humans might be confused as well as maybe machines
at least get those things back otherwise
but the New York Times had to go dig that one up again and that's not even a good I mean
and and since it was way too early for them to know as it is too early for us to know
what really is what really happened here bringing that into the picture wasn't
it seems like you know the bias here
and of course you know they corresponded who wrote the first one who got the first one to be
published they got somebody else to write the second one I hope because that thing was so guys
I don't know again in my sorry that I have that view everybody you know whatever I am
I do think just so everybody in my opinion is that these things drive more safely than I drive
and I've basically given up driving
when saw big boy yesterday and came back from you know from Scranton you know thankfully I didn't
have to drive tell everybody about big boy let's end on a good note it was nice to
see big boy I guess but you know well people might not know what big boy is it's not a
restaurant on the highway like it used to be no it's 40 14 the steam locomotive that is basically
traveling the nation and will be in Philadelphia for the fourth of July before it then heads back
to the Union Pacific headquarters I guess in Omaha but it's been traveling across the nation and it
was it's been parked at at the Railway Museum and Scranton for the past few days and I think
it's still there today and tomorrow if anybody has a chance it's you know it's nice to see
some older technology out there and so went out there hopefully go someplace along some
piece of rail and actually see it chugging by as it wanders its way to Philadelphia between
now and the fourth of July or catch it on its way back west after the fourth of July in Philadelphia
um uh fourth of July in Philadelphia um I think I'll stay home thank you and
they're like 85 years old Alan is something like that is well they must be something like I don't
know how old but you know they're they are the biggest steam locomotives ever built and so it's
nice to see a few of them still I think this is one of the they had the 4012 there as well and
but I think the 4012 is just on display at at Scranton as opposed to the 4014 is actually
chugged its way across the nation to get to Scranton although you know the conspiracy
theorists sort of look at the two diesel locomotives basically you know right behind
the lead and you wonder whether or not they're doing how much of the work they're doing if not
all the work and is the is the steam or the smoke coming out of the
the uh front of the locomotive really from the fire in the
in the locomotive or is it you know like in my light line L you know the little pellets
say a bunch of little pellets I suggested that to somebody yesterday and they looked at me funny
because there are a lot of rail fans out there and of course I I consider myself as a big rail
fan but well just look at the mantle behind them folks that's yeah I have them all over the house
actually I I have a big model of the of the 4014 and the 4024 so yes um as I'm sort of a
collector also a little bit whatever but it was nice to see the real one just terrific and the
interesting thing is that a vehicle that you probably did not have to drive at all except
supervised took you to see this this once upon a time state of the art motive yeah yeah yeah and
back home and safely and and nobody crowd although you know one person on a voice there was a
basically a bumper across the right hand lane and whatever never mind and this thing you know moved
over and gave it I mean it hey I'm for my own personal opinion there is just an enormous amount
of value available today for this and for Pete seniors or people that are that really
or not as comfortable going out at night or or or going places because their confidence and
ability to drive I mean there's no doubt this drives better than I do the D and and and allows me
to have the mobility that to get quality of life that otherwise you know I'd have to stay home and
watch on on the on the inner tubes I don't know whatever that's the value the value proposition
AVs that allows people that would otherwise not be able to get the places to improve
their quality of life because why do you go someplace only because you think you're you'll
be a happier camper there than staying at home or going someplace else I mean it's just the way we
behave as entities and Alan was a happier camper going to Scranton to see big boys
I certainly was and having a Texas wiener at the Texas wiener whatever that Michael Senna said
we definitely had to go to which we did Michael Senna may be in Sweden now but his heart is still
in Scranton where he grew up and was football champion you know whatever football star
came to Princeton and played football too and you know and has had hopefully a reasonable life
and his sister still lives there so you know yes and he's the co-author with you of the real case
for driverless mobility yeah plug that in too and and we're doing another one so whatever we're
doing a follow-up so terrific yet to come well we want to remind everybody once again you can find us
on the transportation channel which is on fire tv roku apple tv these days we're really happy to
be part of that effort you can find more and the newsletter at smart driving car dot com find my
tech reports at textination dot com thanks again for taking the time to watch or listen stay safe
thank you for it have a great weekend folks and anyway we're trying to make this happen
About this episode
Hosts weigh recent headlines and policy proposals around autonomous and driver-assistance systems, including a proposed U.S. change to remove a brake-pedal requirement for AVs. They keep returning to a central theme: safety and reliability hinge less on the tech “solving” everything and more on human misbehavior and how society regulates/enforces behavior around AVs. Crash discussions range from Tesla Autopilot/FSD claims about accelerator override to roadway design factors like confusing striping and delayed replacement of energy absorbers.
Original notes
Welcome back to Smart Driving Cars, episode 415. This time out: the Fed proposal to eliminate the requirement for brake pedals in automated vehicles...and how it was reported. Misbehavior in a Waymo vehicle. Tesla's Texas response and the reporting on the tragedy. And a visit to Big Boy 4014. Join Princeton's Alain Kornhauser and co-host Fred Fishkin for all that and more.
Smart Driving Cars Podcast
Fred Fishkin/Alain Kornhauser
0:00
30:10