That Is An Ugly Roller!

This is the Tire Kickers, classic car chat with Max and Matt.

Hello again, we're back and we're talking about beautiful classic cars, but you know what?

Not every classic is a beauty, some are just too fuggly for words.

It's true, so we'll name and shame the worst offenders and ask how and why did they

make them look so bad?

You're listening to the Tire Kickers with Max and Matt.

Also on the show, does anyone give an F about the MG F?

They're bargain basement cheap, so is it time to look again at this mid-engine motor?

Plus, we talk about the importance of being idle.

Is a driveway warm-up the right thing to do, or should we just get the wheels turning

and warm-up on the move?

We'll also hear your views on his new stag and update you on my SL, plus we'll discover

how one of you listens to us in luxury.

No slam the door, then open the door, because you can't put your belt on, put your belt

on and slam it shut again, as we buckle up for episode 38 of the Tire Kickers.

Right then, Matthew, look at your screen, because I'm going to show you something

that was once the world's most expensive car.

But here's the thing, it was also arguably one of the world's ugliest.

Rolls-Royce Camargue.

Oh, OK, I see what you mean.

Well, what's your problem with it in a nutshell?

Pretty much everything, to be honest.

I mean, the axle is too narrow, so it kind of sits on top of like a narrow gauge axle.

Oh yeah.

The front headlights are just awful.

They're kind of really gormless.

The rear of it, it kind of overhangs too much.

The car's too big for starters.

I mean, it was 230 kilograms more than a silver shadow that it was based on.

And it's just too big a design.

It's too ugly.

It's too slab-sided.

And this is the most expensive car in the world, remember?

It cost five Jaguar XJ-12s, yet they managed to make it so ugly

that it's kind of always been an embarrassment for Rolls-Royce, I think.

It looks a bit thunderbirds, doesn't it?

It's got those sort of ugly, sort of slabby, like two pairs of headlights at the front.

As you say, you look at every bit of it, it kind of looks like, I don't know,

it looks like three different cars put together, doesn't it?

What were they thinking?

Because at this sort of time, 79, the Silver Shadow Mark II was still for sale.

I mean, was it that thing going into the 80s, that modernity,

there was a push to sort of make things look more slabby?

Because cars did go more slabby, didn't they?

This is a 70s design, though.

I don't think it was about going into the 80s.

I just think it was a botched car and they were just trying to make a statement.

Remember, this car sat above the Corniche in the range.

This was the Rolls-Royce range topper.

And clearly they were trying to do something different.

But all they ended up doing was alienating a lot of people

in this strange Rolls shape.

Because if you think of the Silver Shadow, that's kind of curvy

and relatively narrow for a big car.

I think the Silver Shadow looks relatively small.

But this is an even bigger car and looks just fat and bulbous and just wrong.

The proportions are bad, aren't they?

Like you said, it looks a different car at the front than it does at the back.

Yeah, when you go around the back, it's not much better, is it?

Do you know what it reminds me of?

It was this Pin-in-Farina.

Yeah, this is a block called Paolo Martin.

You also designed the Fit 130 Coupe and the Lancia Monte Carlo.

So both designs are the 70s.

Here's a Fit 130 Coupe actually on your screen now.

Have a look at this.

It looks exactly like the Rolls-Royce Camargue, except it's got different lights.

I mean, basically, he had one trick and he used it again and again.

I mean, I prefer that fear, really.

That kind of looks, I mean, it still looks a bit weird at the front.

Going back to the Rolls-Royce, do you know what it looks like?

It looks like a concept design.

You know, normally, they would get to the management.

They'd get, no, no, no, they can't look like that.

Yes, it's a strange design because all the designs up to this point were Rolls-Royce.

And they outsourced it to Pin-in-Farina and somebody in Rolls-Royce obviously said,

well, yeah, that's fine, let's do it.

Really, they should have gone for a Silver Shadow Plus

rather than something completely alien to the design language of Rolls-Royce.

We saw a few of these at the weekend, didn't we,

up at the Rolls-Royce show up at Brooklands.

And they're no better in the flesh, are they, really?

Or is it an acquired taste?

Some people are saying they're kind of back in fashion,

but I can't see it, to be honest.

They didn't make enough of them to actually make them common,

but we walked round, two or three.

And actually, I just still couldn't get on with it.

I find the way that the rear wheels tuck underneath the rear wheel arches is quite odd.

It's just, it looks like a train with a track that's too narrow,

like one of those narrow gauge railways.

I mean, if you look at the evolution,

the Rolls that came in the 80s were a bit slabby as well,

but they weren't as ugly as that.

You mentioned this Fiat 130 Coupe.

Let's throw that up on the screen.

1973, it's in a dark blue, it's a similar shape,

but I would say this looks more classic Italian than that Rolls.

You know, you go around the back of this

and it does look like a Fiat.

It looks like a Benin Farina that's been finished off.

I don't mind this, I wouldn't call that fuggly, would you?

No, I think the Fiat 130 Coupe is a nice looking car, isn't it?

But it's just, you can see where that Camar came from,

because basically they shoved a bike pump up,

the tailpipe of the Fiat 130 Coupe,

and pumped it up and just made it a bit bigger.

But it's just a bit disappointing, isn't it?

Because there isn't really a unique design language

from Rolls Royce in the Camar.

It's a Fiat 130, which is a bit bigger.

Now, if we're talking ugly, there is one car

I've always thought looks a bit odd-maxed,

especially for a sports car.

Now, on paper, it sounds good,

two and a half litre V8, British soft top,

no, it's not a stack.

And from the back, it looks okay,

but when you come round to the front of this thing,

it looks like a guppy fish.

Can you guess what this guess is what I'm talking about?

Well, it's got to be the Daimler Dart, isn't it?

And also, if you like the rear of the Dart,

that's because it looks a bit like

the rear of the Sunbeam Alpine, doesn't it?

It's got those fins on it.

So you like the rear.

But round the front, round the front, oh, bleh.

Yeah, it's horrible.

It's going on there.

It's funny because they came up with this design.

And actually, if you look at modern cars now,

particularly modern Aston Martins

and modern Mercedes sports cars,

they've all got this guppy fish mouth

because it's aerodynamic.

The problem with the Daimler

is it wasn't aerodynamics, it was just cost.

They just came up with this design

purely to save money because it was a fiberglass body.

And if you look at the front of it

and the middle of it and the end of it,

they're just not connected.

The doors are like no man's land

because the front and the back look completely different.

It does look really odd.

I mean, I feel I should like these,

but just the look of it just looks really odd

because actually, you know, to drive it,

they're quite nice cars, aren't they?

Fantastic V8 engine.

It's a Hemi V8, so it's only a small 2.5-litre,

but it's a very quick car.

The police used them in Bedfordshire

on the M1 when it just opened.

It's just the look of them.

They were fiberglass.

Just to save money,

the actual car itself was based on a TR3 chassis.

They kind of cribbed the design a bit

and just didn't get it right.

It was too wobbly to begin with.

And then I think Jaguar bought Daimler

and made it a bit better underneath,

but it still looked ugly.

I'm glad to see you've not put the Morris Minor

on this list,

because I would have had to stop you from driving.

I can't, I'd have to go and hiding again.

But you've put something else on here

that is a British classic, a Ford Anglia.

What's the matter with you?

Oh, God, Ford Anglia.

Dave Edner, that's what I think

when I look at a Ford Anglia.

It's all swoops and bits in the wrong position.

I mean, look at the side-on photograph of this.

This is on your screen now.

It's a 1960 Ford Anglia 105e deluxe.

So it's the top of the tree.

But look at the front.

The rake of the front windscreen

is completely different to the rake of the rear windscreen.

So it's got this look

like it's just crashed into a lorry.

It's an ugly-looking car, the Anglia.

Yeah, but you've had the Citroen Ami on here before,

and you've gone, oh, look at that rake-ish back screen

and all that stuff.

That's pretty much the same design as this.

No, because that's because it matches.

This is the problem with this.

Again, it's a different car from the front and the back.

And I like those Citroens

because there's a kind of quirky design language to it.

But remember, this is from Ford,

who went on to replace this car

with a beautiful-looking Mark 1 Escort.

I think you're on a sticky wiki with that one

because it's a Harry Potter car, isn't it now?

So people don't... I don't care.

You clearly don't.

I think you're wrong on that.

Oh, look at that picture underneath.

It's quite clean underneath.

Yeah, that's the best view of it, to be honest,

underneath, up on a ramp.

We'll come back to this one.

Maybe it's a crush or caress car

and I will fight for its survival.

Talking of dodgy thoughts,

you remember the Granada sort of morphed into something,

didn't it, which was supposed to be really luxurious

but ended up just looking like a more of a blob

than the latest Granada.

Have a look at this, 1998 Ford Scorpio.

And I never quite understood these

because he was supposed to be like,

wow, top of the range.

They were just ugly, especially from the front, weren't they?

Yeah, the Scorpio was terrible

because the Granada before it was quite good.

In fact, all the Granadas, the Mark 1, Mark 2,

and Mark 3 were quite good-looking.

Now, there's a big fact about the Scorpio

that tells you all you need to know

is that Ford never released the name of the designer.

Oh, right, OK.

Still you wonder.

He's still in hiding.

That's the problem.

Because it was just, again, you know,

this is one of those designs that's incoherent.

The front and the back are two different cars

and there's just a couple of doors shoved in the middle.

It's a funny car, the Scorpio,

because it drove quite nicely.

I remember I took a taxi drive once

and the driver drove a Scorpio.

So I got into it and said,

why are you driving a Scorpio?

And he said, well, I was just made redundant

and as the extra kicker,

they let me keep my company car, which is a Scorpio.

How cruel.

That's like twisting the knife.

Actually, looking at the side on picture,

it's a refresh, isn't it?

That's the Granada with a horrible new front end on it.

It looks like a cheap I refresh, doesn't it?

Ford launched this with a big load of who are about it,

saying it was a great design.

But remember it was up against, you know,

Merc W124 was out at the same time,

which is a really good resolved design.

Something like, I don't know,

the E38 BMW 7 Series out at the same time,

roughly competing in this sector.

But how Ford could just deliver

something that looks so ugly is weird

and it suffered terribly in the sales charts.

It just didn't do anything.

Let's move on to, you know,

I mean, let's pick a manufacturer

that is famous for probably one of the most

beautiful cars in the world.

I mean, the Jagi type is, you know,

Enzo Ferrari's favourite, as we've talked about before.

One of the most iconic designs.

They have put a couple of clunkers out, though,

especially in more recent times.

I've a look at this one.

I've driven one of these

and I was really, really underwhelmed with it.

But it doesn't look much better either.

It's an S-type and there's a Ford connection with this,

isn't there?

Yeah, I mean, Ford owned Jag at this time.

But this S-type, it was just a weird thing

because it was trying to hark back

to their glorious past

of the S-type of the Mark II Jags.

But it just made it a pastiche that wasn't modern

and it wasn't classic

and it just, again, had really weird

Ford-style headlights.

Ford have got some history

in bodging headlight design.

Yeah, I never thought this was particularly ugly.

I mean, it has got sort of XJ cues in it.

The interior was nice until you actually

got in and looked at it

and then you realise most of it was out of

Mondeo or the parts bin, wasn't it?

And I drove one of these once

and it was just so underwhelming.

It was just like driving a Ford.

It was not luxurious at all.

The driving position's not nice.

It just felt, bleh.

It didn't feel special,

which Jags always should really feel special, shouldn't they?

It was a Ford bodge.

That grille looks like a cat's arse, doesn't it?

It just looks all wrong.

You know, they say the hole is greater

than some of its parts.

Well, it wasn't in this case, was it?

It was the hole was less

than the parts out of the parts bin, wasn't it?

It was just a forgettable Jag.

I don't think Jags should ever be forgettable.

They've always got to be stylish and rake-ish

and they've got to have some kind of charm to it.

That's just a charmless modern 1990s design

that with a Jaguar badge grafted onto the front.

Now, talking of car manufacturers

who've made beautiful things,

you know, let's talk about Aston.

You know, let's go from the DB5 to this clunker

from the 80s, Aston Martin Lagonda.

Now, we saw this one, the white one,

at Haynes Museum in Somerset.

And if you want to go and see one

and remind yourself of what a weird car it is,

go and go to Haynes Museum and have a look at it.

But just from every angle,

I remember it being a bit weird.

I remember reading about it in books

and then seeing it in real life back in the day.

I think it was very...

I mean, it was very, oh,

because that was super expensive, wasn't it?

But now it's just not dated very well at all, is it?

Hmm, I quite like these.

What? Which bit do you like?

Because I can't find anything I like.

It's a wedge.

And, you know, we've talked about some of the designs

that are different front and back.

At least this is consistent throughout.

It's wedge at the front, wedge in the middle

and wedge at the back.

I mean, okay, the doors.

So if you look at the front door and the back door,

they're different shapes and sizes

and the lines are going at different angles.

So, yeah, the design was a bit flawed.

But at least...

A little bit flawed?

Yeah.

It looks like a Lincoln town car

that's gone through a mango.

You've...

I quite like the Lincoln town car as well, though.

It's not.

And then when you get inside as well,

I mean, we're talking fugly.

I mean, you know, I want to talk about interiors.

It...

What was going on there?

There must have been some drugs doing that one

because it's so bizarre.

It's such an odd thing.

It's like button frenzy.

It's got this sort of Citroen style,

one spoke tilted steering wheel

and then some sort of Buck Rogers style,

futuristic dashboard with lots of touch buttons

and stuff like that,

which you can guarantee probably broke.

I think they had to replace them all, didn't they?

Because it was touchscreen technology before it existed.

And so you had to try and press these buttons

and they didn't work.

So I remember they spent a fortune

on warranty claims,

basically putting in new dashes.

Yeah, so if you've got an ugly classic

or you want to defend, you know,

drive a Camargo or a Dart or an Anglia

or a Skorbo. Sorry.

Yeah, sorry about that.

I mean, we didn't, we were careful not to say

anything too near those Camargo owners, weren't we?

But if you drive a classic...

I didn't say it to their face, did we?

You said it behind their back.

I've just run away and talked into a marker bag.

Oi, ugly, like it.

If you've got one of those cars you want to defend it

or you want to add one to the list

or you want to kind of reason with us, you know,

do drop us a line.

Tell us why we're right or we're wrong.

You know, you can get in touch with us

in the usual way via Instagram or via Facebook.

Here's how to do it.

We're at the Tire Kickers UK on Instagram

and the Tire Kickers of Facebook.

Well, you're listening to episode 38.

Still to come on the show, should we buy a cheap modern MG

or just tell it to MGF off?

And are we being too idle?

We'll discuss classic car warm-up routines.

But first, let's update you with what we've been doing

since we last spoke.

Max, how's the 1980s SL Dream Machine doing?

I've just got it back, actually,

from the first service that I've done to it.

So up until now, I've been driving it reasonably gingerly,

having not known, you know, the spark plugs, the oil,

blah, blah, blah.

But actually now I've had the first service done.

It's driving really well.

And I don't know whether this is a kind of psychosomatic thing

or whether it's the truth,

but cars after you've had them serviced

just seem to go better.

Hmm, yeah, is that imaginary or is that real?

I don't know.

I think it's imaginary with modern cars

because all they do is change your oil

and plug it into a laptop, don't they?

But I think when you, you know,

there is that thing when you have a service of your daily car

and you think, oh, it does drive a bit tighter.

What they've done is literally just changed the oil

and the air filter.

However, on a classic car,

if it's been too specialist and they've gone through it,

they can make the difference, can't they,

in terms of drive?

Do you feel it is running better than now?

I do, and it's imperceptible.

I can't actually say what is different,

but it just feels more together.

It just feels smoother.

It ticks over a little lower.

It just starts a bit better.

I mean, that's probably the plugs, isn't it?

But it's one of the strange things, isn't it?

You just got more confidence in the car.

And actually, because I've got the service history

dating back for quite some time on this car,

I kind of had a quick look back at the invoices.

And over 20 years, it's been serviced roughly at the SL shop.

And I think over 20 years,

it's done about 20,000 miles

and it's cost about 20,000 pounds.

So about 1,000 pounds a year for 1,000 miles a year.

That's not bad, actually, is it?

That's why it's running better

because your wallet is lighter

and you cut down on the weight.

You took it to the SL shop,

which is obviously putting your money

in a good direction on that car.

I mean, obviously, they're high ends.

Courtesy car, what did you get?

Something good? You know, pagoda?

Something like that?

Well, if you go to a classic Mercedes specialist,

I would hope you're going to get a classic Mercedes

because I was driving there thinking,

what are we going to get? W123, W124, W201?

What's it going to be?

So I excitedly dropped my car off and said,

right, what is it?

Show me to the car park

because you're surrounded by all these old Mercs,

hundreds of them.

And they led me to a 2024 Hyundai i10 Auto,

which is the most disappointed I've been since Christmas 1979.

I mean, it was just awful.

So I said, okay, yeah, thanks.

Well, I suppose he's got air con

because it was a hot day,

so it'll get me home, blah, blah, blah.

90-minute drive home.

Did they look at you and look you up and down and go,

oh, hold on a minute, let me ask.

Dave, have we got the Honda Jazz?

No, is that out?

Right, no, get him the i10.

Yeah, auto, auto probably

because he looks like he can't do the gears.

Terrible auto box.

I mean, you and I moan about our 1970s and 1980s auto.

So this was a five-speed kind of automated manual.

And if you floor it coming off a roundabout,

because in a small car,

I don't know if this is just perspective.

Were you flooring it coming off a roundabout,

by any chance?

In a small car, the big truck coming towards you

looks even bigger, doesn't it?

So you floor it, and then this car goes,

then it slows down to change into second.

They go, into third.

What an awful gearbox.

I mean, this is a 2024 car.

How could it be so bad?

How could they have gone so backwards?

So anyway, I talked to them about this

and I dropped the car off.

And I said, could you not have,

you know, classic courtesy cars,

you know, W123, W124, W121?

And they said, no, it just costs too much to run them.

Oh, what a lovely floor that is.

Well, I've been touring around in my new stag

for a couple of weeks now,

and I got a service on it as well.

And that did make a difference.

There was a 700-pound bill as well.

I saw it starting to find out what needs doing

as you do when you start having a car.

Fortunately, at the moment, this little stuff,

the service sorted out most of the stuff.

Although I've got this really annoying thing

that's developed, the belt screech when it's cold,

which is really embarrassing

because it only does it when it's cold.

So if the car sat for a while at a car meet

and a startup is like...

So I don't think you need the belts looked at.

They're slipping on something.

It's only doing it when it's cold,

but it's just really annoying.

So I'm gonna stick some silicone belt dressing on it

for now and I'll put it back to the specialist.

And then the back number plate started peeling off as well.

I was like, what the hell's going on?

And I looked back on...

What's it made out of?

Well, it's a Perspex.

It's a black and silver, but a Perspex,

and it's like a sticker.

What's the registration number underneath it?

Is it something completely different?

Yeah, it's completely different, yeah.

It matches the scratch...

Is it forward-scratched?

Imagine it's a scratched-off VIN number.

But no, it's a weird number plate.

You know how a Perspex plate is normally Perspex

and then something stuck to the back of it?

Well, this is the other way around.

It's like a sticker on top of it.

And looking back on the original photos,

it was starting to peel and I just missed it.

Anyway, I managed to find the replacement one

and put that back on, but that was a bit embarrassing,

you know, it just wasn't good,

because it was the first thing I saw when I opened the garage.

Oh, bloody ugly.

But otherwise, it's running great.

We'll talk about it later on in the show,

but you've had a go in it.

I'm not frightened to take it on motorways.

I'm happy to give it a heavy right foot.

I've been giving it an Italian tune-up anyway,

because I think that's good for a car, isn't it?

Yeah, definitely.

So I don't think your stag was used much before you bought it.

No, no, I don't think it was.

I think it did about 500 miles in the last year.

I've done 600 already.

Yeah, that's great. That's what they need.

They need to be used, you know,

particularly a carburetor V8 engine.

It needs exercise.

And actually when we went out a few days ago,

it was a cork, wasn't it?

It was hammering down the M3, sounding fantastic.

Yeah, and I think that's good for the engine.

It's not so good for my wallet, though, to be honest.

I mean, the fuel gauge goes down at an alarming rate.

In fact, I went and filled up a couple of days ago,

and the guy in the petrol station said,

would you like a loyalty card?

Oh, Hordesino, no, I don't.

Perhaps I should get one,

because I reckon I'd probably have the old decanter set by now.

It does suck the fuel.

I mean, I'm pretty spot...

Yeah, but you're the only stag owner

who's looking at the fuel gauge,

because everybody else is looking at the temperature gauge.

The temperature.

Well, the temperature's behaving itself actually.

It hasn't gone over halfway, which is really, really good.

It's definitely more of a sleeper classic

than having a red 60 sports car,

having a brown 70 sports car.

People don't clock it first off straight away,

which I don't know whether I like or I don't,

because I quite liked being a bit of a neck snapper

in the other one. I quite liked that,

because people do...

It was so shiny in my red car before.

I think it might be also, remember, with the stag,

you are going past faster than you were in the Alpine,

so people have less time to react,

because it's a relatively fast car that's stag.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe that's the case.

I mean, definitely it's more usable.

I'm using it more.

It's definitely easier to drive,

because it's power steering, and it's automatic.

You know, it's not as...

The effort of driving isn't the same as driving it before.

You know, who knows after a couple of years

I might want that effort of driving a manual car again,

but at the moment, I'm really enjoying it.

So I've got a list of current things to do.

I'm going to fix the radio in the next week,

sort out that belt squeal,

and get the engine bay cleaned as well,

because it's just a little bit scruffy,

and I'd just like that clean,

just so I can pop the bonnet up

and not feel embarrassed about it.

Time now to get your views

on what we've been talking about in previous shows.

Yeah, we mentioned we hit 30,000 downloads

since we started up last year,

and a few of you were kind enough

to give us a slap on the back.

Joel Benton on Instagram says,

Well done, you're crushing it.

Not literally, though, thankfully.

That's a good point.

We haven't done a crush or caress for a while.

Maybe Ford Angler.

Ford Angler.

Mark Dempsey says,

Congrats, guys. You deserve it.

It's a great listen. Thank you, Mark.

KCDMGBGT says,

Congrats, lads. Keep them company.

Congrats, lads. Keep them coming.

We are trying.

We are trying. Just a bit of effort, though, isn't it?

Matthew Strong says,

Well done from the poolside in Bali.

Oh, that show, isn't it?

Can you top that?

Have you listened to this podcast anywhere?

Where are you listening?

Is it more glamorous than a poolside in Bali?

I quite fancy that.

Can we do the show from a poolside in Bali?

We've got the budget for that.

No, we did have one listener

when I looked at the stats once in Iran.

Well, tell us where you are listening to us,

because obviously we can see sort of rough stats

of where you are.

But tell us what you're doing, if it's clean.

Are you trapped under a car?

Are you doing time at His Majesty's pleasure?

Let's go for the best location, please.

Whatever more glamorous...

Can you get the internet in a prison?

Yeah, but we're looking for more glam, aren't we, I suppose?

So are you on a desert island?

Are you somewhere glamorous,

are you in the Caribbean, wherever?

Let us know. Let's go for the best location.

We'll stick a post up on Instagram and Facebook

and see if we can get a bit of interest going on,

because we're fascinated of where you are.

While we're talking about listeners,

a big hello if you've just got into listening

to this nonsense, I have to listen to him at Twitter on.

So, it's reassuring to know that you're also sharing that burden.

Don't be a lurker, comment on our social media stuff

or send us a message.

We do really like the interaction.

Otherwise, we're just sat here talking to ourselves

or I'm talking to him and I'm not sure which is worse.

You love it, you're lucky.

Thanks to all of you who said nice things

about my new stag.

Lots of you are very complimentary

about Bruno the stagosaurus.

You're giving her a name.

Bruno has been christened in this house.

So, yeah, like I say, I didn't go looking for a brown car,

but lots of you have said nice things.

And I think, you know, what did you think of the color?

Because it's a bit unusual, isn't it?

Well, it's not factory, because interestingly,

when we were doing a test,

who can put the hood up fastest?

We found the original factory Russet brown,

didn't we, underneath the tonneau cover?

In the hood bin.

And it's actually really an awful color, isn't it?

So your color is much better than factory,

even though it's not original.

Yeah, whatever.

I've got a couple of favors to ask you,

the dear audience, while we're here as well.

First up, Apple reviews.

Oh, no, here we go.

I feel like, say, begging for reviews again, blah, blah, blah.

Now, in this digital world, though,

the thing is you're toast if you don't keep hustling.

So, I mean, our last Apple review was back in May.

So could we buy more of this?

What? No one has reviewed us since May?

No, I know.

Well, they're enjoying it too much,

so don't even think about it.

Oh, that's right, yeah.

Could we beg you for some more, please?

I mean, it's a pretty shameless begging,

but we'll do it.

Five stars and a few words.

It's all we ask of you.

Now, obviously, only if you've enjoyed it,

don't put hater stuff on there,

but if you can put five stars on our app.

Yeah, just shut up if you don't like it.

Put five stars on our Apple review

and a couple of nice words.

It will help us trick the Gen Z nerds over at Apple

into boosting us up the car podcast ratings,

because we are on a quest, aren't we,

to beat one particular podcast, aren't we, Max?

Well, the Scrunch and Sniff.

Yeah.

Oh, I know this code.

They're number one.

I don't know why they're number one.

You know, we're working harder.

Well, because they're better than us.

How about that?

I don't know.

Got more listeners?

Yeah, that is the reason.

So, yeah, if you could put an Apple review.

We've got another Desperate Grovel, haven't we, as well?

Yeah, please, a bit of word of mouth.

You know, old-fashioned God marketing.

If you enjoy our Witterings,

it helps kill a boring car journey, for example,

or enables you to not speak to the other half.

I have to speak to Matt, though.

Could you recommend us to a mate, for example?

Just point them in our direction and we'll do the rest.

Don't forget, you can find us

at the TireKickers UK on Instagram

and the TireKickers on Facebook.

It's the TireKickers, episode 38,

still to come to idle or not to idle.

We'll try to work out what is the best warm-up routine

for our classic cars, driveway or just driving it.

But first, I can't help feeling an open-top MG

would be great at this time of year

to drive to a beer garden and be attacked by wasps.

But which MG?

The A-lights face it is quite basic.

Everybody else in the world has got a B,

the C's more expensive, the D was pre-war,

and Jack had the letter E.

So that just leaves the MG, F.

Mm, I've always felt these were just a little bit too modern,

but you know what, Max, as time kicked in,

they're all sort of aging quite nicely.

I mean, as you mentioned, an A, B or C, it does look nicer.

All of those cars look nicer,

but they're all going to be more work to live with,

aren't they, as old cars are?

And for a younger crowd,

and we know the younger crowd

is driving the desirability of modern classics,

the F has got that modern classic thing going on

in spades, hasn't it?

Plus, it's mid-engine, which is a bonus.

I just can't help thinking they just look a bit Austin Rover.

Yeah, well, forget all that,

because the main key point about the MGF is now the price.

The price is just so amazing on these,

that you can't really ignore them, to be honest.

I'm going to throw one up on your screen now.

This is a 2001 MGF 83,000 miles in lovely blue,

and this is 3,495.

I mean, that is such a cheap car for what you get.

Mid-engine, British sports car.

What else could you want?

Well, it's got MG on the nose,

so everything is taken care of.

Nicer interior, that's what I'd like.

It looks a bit, that's just...

Actually, it's all right.

This one's all right.

As you say, it's in that nice blue.

The seats look really good.

Actually, they have been cannibalized,

these MGF seats, for a lot of things.

I'm surprised there's so many left.

But the steering wheel,

it's actually okay,

do you know what is better than I remember it?

I think 10 years ago,

these just felt a bit nothing,

neither here or there, neither official foul,

but I think now that looks like a really good,

fun sports car for not a lot of money.

And as you say, the mid-engine thing just adds to it.

That's going to make it more fun to drive,

isn't it surely?

Yeah, they're great.

I mean, they really did handle well.

I have spun an MGF coming off the wet roundabout.

There's a surprise.

When I had somebody in my rear view mirror

that I was looking at,

and then suddenly I floored it

and he was in my windscreen.

So there was something quite dramatically wrong,

possibly with the tyres,

you know, with the road,

it's nothing to do with the driver.

But the MGF is a really sweet handling car.

It's got a very short wheelbase

and they do bounce around a bit.

They've got that lovely hydro gas suspension,

which does make it very different

to all the other classic cars.

I mean, different because it's a bit more expensive

to maintain, but it does drive in a very different way.

I think the MGFs are really good

and they've been kind of forgotten a bit,

but they shouldn't be.

They had a problem, let's face it.

And I'm going to shock you with this

because it was a British sports car that overheated.

No way.

Ringly belt?

No way.

It had a very small, very small coolant capacity

in the MGF engine as the K-series.

And it was used in the Lotus Elise as well as the gearbox.

So it's a good engine,

but it did go through head gaskets and warp a bit.

So as long as you keep on top of it

and there are head gasket fixes for that now,

it is a really good engine.

It's peppy, it's revvy, it's nice.

And it's a great package.

I'm just going through that, actually.

The pitch is, that's a lot of car

for three and a half grand, isn't it?

And it's in a nice colour.

Normally, like the cheap end of the market

is sort of stuff that doesn't look that great,

but it's in that metallic blue that you'd like.

You know, the wheels look good.

The interior looks great.

You know, it doesn't look like it's the cheap version of it.

I don't know if it came in different trim levels,

but it looks nice.

You'd have fun in that in the summer.

That is a great weekend car.

Is it probably going to be like a classic car?

It's a modern classic, isn't it?

We've talked about this a lot,

but you're probably going to just have to service that.

What's that tone in your voice

when you said the word modern classic?

Automatically getting a little bit sarcastic.

Well, you know, where's the chrome on the bumper?

There's no chrome on the bumper.

You didn't always need chrome, though.

Is that going to be fairly easy to live with?

I want to thought so, wouldn't I?

Yeah, pretty much, because it's an MG.

There's lots of specialists around that look after them.

And again, you know, they do have engine problems,

but the engine problems can be sorted.

If it's well maintained, it should be all right.

And there's lots and lots of special additions.

If you look for, I think it was the Trophy 160.

That was 160 brake horsepower, MGF.

That actually shifts because it's quite a light car.

I think the 0-60 turns around seven seconds.

Variable valve timing, good brakes.

I think they're really good cars to buy now.

Because again, you know, three and a half grand

is the one we picked.

But there's ones cheaper than that out there.

They were kind of, there's an entry level model,

which I think was a 1.6.

But there's lots of special additions

with lots of gear on them that look good.

So this is sort of, give it a comparison.

It's sort of BMW Z4 money.

And then that's a great car as well.

But I don't know, there's something

a bit more fun to this.

This has got an edge on it because it's an MG

and also because it's mid-engined as well.

So that makes it interesting.

I think it's dated, all right, actually.

I think it's dated really well.

I think if you're looking at this segment,

everybody's going to say buy an MX-5.

And then everybody else ends up in an MX-5.

But this is a very, very different proposition.

And like you're right, like you said, it's mid-engine.

You know, there aren't that many cars around

that are mid-engine that are good.

And so I think it's something a bit different.

And it's British.

And of course, it has classic overheating problems.

So it's a great thing to kind of get involved in.

Good clubs, MG, clubs are fantastic.

And again, like I said, parts cost.

I mean, what's not to like about an MGF?

Apart from the rust, they do rust a bit.

But I think it's great.

I mean, there's certain foibles, you know,

there's certain things that make me roll my eyes,

you know, there's wing mirrors and the interior

and that sort of stuff.

But I think that's really, really minuscule

compared to actually how well this is dated.

It's a fun car.

Just beware if it's wet,

if you're coming off a roundabout,

it can be a bit of a handful.

All right, then, Max, I'm just going to

just fire the car up.

I've just got this old mini here.

I just need to run for a little bit.

I'm just going to run on the drive for a little bit

because you need to warm the car up, don't you?

Well, do you?

I mean, do you really need to warm it up

or should you drive it?

Well, I don't know because there's two schools

of thought about this.

I mean, do you leave it on the drive for 10 minutes

and warm it up and only drive it

when it's sort of getting sort of near temperature?

Or do you, as kind of I sort of do,

is warm it up a little bit and then drive it off slowly?

What's the wisdom on this?

You're on wise-out on these things.

What should we do?

Well, I'd just like to point out, first of all,

that neither of us are mechanics.

So we are probably quite wrong here.

But I think, as opposed to what you do,

which I think is exactly the wrong thing to do,

surprise, surprise,

I don't think you should leave them ticking over

on the drive because the problem with that is

that the oil pressure isn't high enough.

So you kind of, if it's ticking over at 600 RPM,

when it's just still cold,

the oil pressure hasn't built up enough

to get the oil around the engine.

So I think that's doing more damage.

What I was told to do years and years ago

was to get the car started and then drive it as soon as.

If you have to get it up to kind of like 1500 RPM,

that's good, that's where it should be

because then you've got the oil pump working

and you've got oil circulating around the engine.

I think ticking over is probably the worst thing you can do.

I've had mechanics tell me that you need to warm them up

first before you drive them.

And if you go to a classic car mechanics,

they're always running the cars up, aren't they?

Before they start using them and they're idling.

They should be running up at a higher revs than tick over

because if you think about this in a modern car now,

if you start a modern car, it looks after itself.

And what it does is it goes up to 1200, 1300 RPM

for a bit to get the oil pressure going.

And then the oil pressure sensor goes,

being you're up to pressure,

and then it drops back down.

So modern cars fast idle

when you first turn them on and then drop down.

Because I think that's really what you're meant to do.

Yeah, I think in a modern car,

you're supposed to start it up,

put your belt on and get moving.

It's not good to sit around.

I mean, I know with my old car,

I shouldn't just start it and drive off

like I would in my daily car.

The oil does need to move.

But at the same time of the school,

I thought that too much idling isn't good

both for the car or for the neighbors, actually.

Because my car and one,

obviously this bag is not quiet,

especially at 7.30 on a Sunday morning

when I'm heading out to breakfast meat.

And the sun beam wasn't particularly quiet.

But on this, I'm a classic car.

What I tend to do and tell me if you think

this is the right thing to do,

I tend to get the car, start the car,

and then move it out of the garage

and just leave on the drive just a little bit.

You know, for a minute or two,

maybe a couple of minutes,

and just sort of sit on the revs a little bit

and put the choke in slightly.

And that's the time to sort of start.

What are we doing about?

And I see, I think there's two things here.

Firstly, with the choke,

I think you should get the choke in as quick as possible.

Because I was taught with a choke car

that basically you turn it over a few times

with the choke in just to get the oil

moving around the engine.

Then you start the car with the choke out,

get it going, drive as quickly as possible,

get the choke in as quickly as possible

as long as it won't stall.

Just to stop the choke being out for as long as possible

and then get it driving.

Because what I tend to do in the SL is a bit different.

As soon as I start it when it's cold,

I get it moving,

but I try not to go over 3,000 revs

for the first seven miles.

It's not revving too much

and you're giving the car a chance to get warm quickly.

Because with the idling, the pressure's not up

and it doesn't get that warm.

And also here's a fact.

Here's a fact I've looked up.

70% of engine wear happens at the start-up

and warm-up period.

So you've got to get that right.

So I think you need to warm it up quicker.

It does depend on the car though.

My last car was very choke dependent.

And if I'd have put that choking before I hit the lights

at the end of the road, it would have stalled.

So it needed more choke.

This one is less choke dependent.

In fact, it wants to choke in as soon as possible.

Thank you very much

because it would like to suck up more petrol

on its own accord, having forced in.

The other thing that we don't really talk about

and perhaps we should talk about is your routine, your knack.

Your knack of starting your car.

I've not quite figured it for the stack, actually.

There is an oddity in the stack

that in order to pull the choke out,

you have to press the accelerator pedal

because it doesn't want to come otherwise.

So it's connected.

It's some sort of bad engineering

where it's sort of connected together.

But if you just touch the accelerator pedal,

the choke comes out quite easily.

But there is a sort of a knack.

Certainly with my sunbeam, there was a knack.

It was a mechanical fuel pump.

So you had to turn it over to, as you say,

to get the fuel up and then pull the choke right out,

then start it on some revs,

then put the choke half in straight away

otherwise it would splutter.

But then it would sit in that.

And then you'd probably have to have that choke.

You'd just have to feather that in

for probably about a mile, two miles.

Otherwise it would just go, no, I'm stopping

like a dog that didn't want to walk in further.

So that's different to the stack.

But we all have it, you all develop a knack, don't you?

With whatever car you're in and you know the knack.

So this is the kind of mechanical sympathy

that sets classic cars apart from modern cars

because in modern cars it's all looked after

and you don't even need to think about anything.

But I do think you should get driving as soon as possible.

So just to be clear then,

what are you telling me I should do in my stack?

Is it what I'm doing, but just put the choke in more

or to warm it up for a couple of minutes

and then get driving it gently?

Turn it over with the choke in.

So basically you get some oil around the cylinders.

As soon as you start it, get driving it.

Don't leave it taking over at idling at 600 RPM

because it's not got the oil pressure to it.

So I think you need to completely change your routine.

Basically have a wee, get your coffee sorted,

get your hat on, do all that before you start the car.

And as soon as you start the car,

pull your driving gloves on, drive off.

Right, do you agree with Max?

Let us know on that.

There's also another thing, isn't there?

I've not thought about this too much, but cooling as well.

You've got this thing about turbo engines, haven't you?

So if you're on the motorway, for example,

and in a turbo engine, which is most modern cars,

you don't just pull into the service station and turn it off.

What you've got to do is leave it ticking over for 60 seconds.

So that's a kind of tick over

on the other end of the equation.

When your car is hot, you can let it tick over

to cool down a bit and get the oil moving around.

Is that fact or is that something,

just some urban myth that you've been told?

For turbos, it's fact.

I always like to leave my murk engine ticking over

for a bit after I've finished a run,

just to let it cool down, yeah.

Okay, so right, listeners, are we right or are we wrong?

Let us know, and in fact,

here's someone who should explain it better for us.

Shoot us a note on our socials and let us know.

We're at the Tire Kickers UK on Instagram

and The Tire Kickers on Facebook.

You're listening to The Tire Kickers

with Max and Matt.

That's it for this episode.

Next time, we're doing a road test of both our cars

as my Mercedes SL faces off against his Triumph Stag.

Yes, we'll do a proper old style magazine group test

between our two cars,

the Triumph engine versus the Mercedes one.

A very hot V8 versus a cool straight six.

All right, BL factory bodges

versus Mercedes Germanic built quality.

Donkey jacket versus neat overalls.

And we'll find out how easy it is

to get their top off when you need to.

We're talking roofs here and here is a hint

the Stag is quite difficult.

Yeah, there are tribals back in the day

in the 70s who will finally decide which was best.

I'm going to make sure we do it

on a really hot day in traffic.

Okay, so I'm going to check my coolant.

So until we kick some more tires together,

it's bye from me.

And it's a bye from him.

Bye.

Trump is un-exhausted now.

FK ever lie down.

Given everything I've got.

That Is An Ugly Roller!

Rolls-Royce Camargue

Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow

XK120 Jaguar Xj12S

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Fiat 130

Minor Morris Minor

Ford Anglia

Citroen Ami

Ford Granada

Ford Scorpio

BMW E38

Jaguar Stype

Aston Martin DB5

Aston Martin Lagonda

BMW M3

Ford Angler

MGF

Lotus Elise

BMW Z4

About this episode

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