The Four Defining Roles in Your Business Story: Victim, Villain, Hero, and Guide [RR 1073]
Remarkable Results Radio Podcast
The Four Defining Roles in Your Business Story: Victim, Villain, Hero, and Guide [RR 1073]
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Car
Volkswagen Beetle
The Volkswagen Beetle, often called the VW Bug, is a small car famous for its unique round shape. It was popular for many years and is considered a classic car.
Company
CarMax
CarMax is a big company that sells used cars. They have a lot of cars to choose from and make buying easy without negotiating prices.
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This is the Automotive Repair Podcast Network.
Hey everybody, welcome, Carm Capriotto,
remarkable results radio, don't forget.
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Glad to have you here.
I have a guest, just before we turn on the recorder,
we almost did the entire episode
and I had to stop him because you're gonna love him.
His name is Jay Peterson, he's a PhD in communications.
I just can't wait for you to meet him before.
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Hey, let's get started, Dr. JJ, welcome.
Thanks for having me, excited to be here.
Boy, I'll tell you, I'm so excited.
He has his own podcast.
It's called Bad Ass Softy.
This guy's got a lot of great legacy.
He holds a PhD in communications.
He's a professor at Vanderbilt.
He headed Storybrand, the Donald Miller book
we've covered in the past,
and we talk about a lot on our marketing podcasts.
At the core of everything,
and I'm reading this a little bit from his bio,
JJ does believe that clear values,
aligned communication is the power
to transform not only business, but people.
And when I think about our industry, JJ,
and how we have evolved from fixing cars
and being a mechanic and working with our hands
and starting our own business or buying our,
the guy we used to work for out,
and now I've got to be a leader and develop culture.
And these are untouchable things
that I can't get my hands around.
And I know that you're going to help us figure this out
because us badasses in our industry,
he's going to pontificate,
and I'm going to sit back and listen.
Where that really came out of was when I was younger,
I actually was in improv comedy,
and I toured around the United States for a few years.
And for people who know improv or the comedy world,
when you do clubs, you don't get paid in clubs, right?
Like you go to, if I was like a mid-level comedian,
I go to a weekend club,
I'm getting paid probably $500 for that whole weekend,
which includes my flights that I have to pay for,
my food, my hotel, everything.
So you're not making money at clubs.
That's where you kind of work out your craft.
But where you make money is by doing private events,
like for big corporations or for conferences.
And I remember being on stage and being at these conferences
and seeing these leaders who were really strong
and powerful on stage and then would walk off stage
and their teams would be afraid of them,
or they would have this integrity like grind
where like on stage they were saying one thing
and then off stage they were something else.
And what I was seeing with all this leadership,
kind of these cracks in these leaders,
was that they were leaving behind a wake of trauma
and pain with their teams.
That was really it.
Like I was just seeing people destroyed
because, excuse my language, but these guys were assholes.
Like they came across as like really strong on stage
and then were incredibly horrible behind the scenes
because they were trying to be badasses,
but they were trying to be badasses out of their own insecurity,
out of their own brokenness.
And they were causing a lot of pain
for the people they were leading.
And I remember literally being on tour,
I was in Washington DC and I was visiting my friend
and I said, you know, I love this comedy world.
I just can't do the touring.
My body, my life just isn't set up for this.
And he said, what do you wanna do?
And I said, I actually would love to go back
and help raise the next generation of leaders
to not leave behind such a wake of trauma and pain.
At that moment, I ended up quitting comedy.
I went back and got my master's degree,
ended up getting my PhD and started working
in higher education first.
And helping like the next generation,
I became dean of students at a university,
started working with student leaders.
And then for the last 10 years,
I've been working with thought leaders and business leaders
to help them communicate better and stronger with their team.
And that's really what this whole thing came out of.
Because also for me, when I was younger,
I wanted to prove myself.
I wanted to get ahead.
And so I took on some traits of leaders
that I thought I wanted to be like.
I learned a ton from them
and they challenged me to be better leaders.
But it wasn't who I was.
And I really realized what the type of leader I wanted to be
was somebody who was unapologetically driven.
Like I want to get ahead, I want to win.
I mean, I want to make a lot of money.
Like I want to do all of those things,
but also want to do it in a way that cares for people
and cares for myself.
And so that's really what Badass Softy came out of.
My PhD is in story and narrative theory.
So I do a lot of work where I,
you mentioned Storybrand,
where I help companies create clear messaging.
But the reason why I was really drawn
to that specific framework is one specific piece
in the Storybrand framework.
What we teach people how to do is that
a lot of companies try to be the hero of their marketing story
and we teach you to be the guide, not the hero.
Now, where that principle comes from is
in storytelling, there really are four main characters,
four main characters in the story,
the victim, the villain, the hero and the guide.
These characters exist in story
because they exist in all of us.
Now the victim exists in the story
because something painful happened to them
and they then, the story isn't really about them.
The story is about the hero
and the victim acts as a foil.
They make the villain look bad and the hero look good.
So if you stay in the victim role in a story,
the story will never be about you.
The story is about that you exist
to draw energy from other characters.
So that's one thing I learned about
like the role that I play in leadership.
And when I play the victim,
not when you are a victim, when bad things happen to you,
but when you play a victim,
the story will never be about you.
The story is about the hero trying to rescue the victim
and the villain trying to cause harm to the victim.
So that's the role of the victim in a story.
Now, when something negative happens to us in life,
in story, we come to a crossroads
where we can either stay a victim with a victim mindset
or we can choose one of two paths.
You can choose to become a villain or a hero.
Both the hero and the villain in a story
have a backstory of pain.
Something bad has happened to them.
In fact, you will see with villains,
often they have a scar on their face
to prove that something bad happened to them.
A villain works to revenge the pain
and cause harm to others.
And a hero works to redeem it.
Most of our lives in leadership,
for people who are listening to this podcast,
they've been living in one of those two spaces,
one of those three spaces probably in their life.
As they're working up and owning their own shop,
they're kind of moving forward in leadership,
they probably started out like some negative experiences
happened to them early in their career.
And as they began to move forward, they decided,
am I going to be the kind of leader
who then gets big and tough and mean
in order to protect myself,
which actually causes harm to other people,
which that means you become the villain?
Or am I choosing to understand those things
that happened to me and I'm going to move forward
and redeem those painful moments for myself?
So that I actually move up in leadership,
I take control of the story.
The thing we need to understand with those two characters
is that the villain always gets destroyed.
Everybody is always rooting for the villain to be destroyed.
And if you play the villain in the life, in your life,
there will be times that you have power,
that you get ahead, that you're able to protect yourself.
But the reality is when you play the villain in the story,
everybody's rooting for you to die.
That's kind of the reality of a villain.
When you play the hero,
everybody's rooting for you to win.
So they want to learn from you, they want to grow with you,
they're rooting for you to win.
And what that means in the story truthfully
is that the hero is about redeeming the pain
that was caused to them.
Then there's the highest level of character in the story
and that's called the guide.
The guide is the one who comes along to help the hero win.
So in movies, we see Obi-Wan Kenobi, we see Yoda,
we see Dumbledore for Harry Potter,
we see Hamich in Hunger Games,
you know, Gandalf in Lord of the Rings.
There's always an older, wiser sage
who comes along to help the hero win.
The guide in the story
is the most powerful character in the story.
When they show up,
that's when the hero has hope to win.
The story isn't about them,
the story is about the hero,
but the guide is there,
it's the most powerful, the strongest,
and they are the most confident
and they help the hero win.
Why I bring all that up?
So, you know, I kind of, you said,
let me talk for a second,
I get a little nerdy about it.
But the reality is, you know, you come up in leadership,
you come up like start as a mechanic
and you start off, maybe you lead a crew
and then all of a sudden you're owning your own shop.
All of us go through these phases of character
in our own life through the steps, through all the steps.
If you started out and you had a horrible boss
who treated you like crap, you were a victim.
You were, it was outside of your control.
You had the opportunity then in that moment to decide,
am I gonna stay a victim?
Am I just gonna complain and say,
this is out of my control, I have no urgency in this?
You never would have written a good story with your life.
You would have constantly just been blaming other people
and being hurt by villains and rescued by heroes.
But then you started moving up
and there were probably times in your career
that you were both the villain and the hero.
There were probably times that you made mistakes
where you lashed out at people because you were tired
or overwhelmed or hurt or they had hurt you.
And there were probably times when you recognized
that you were going to push ahead
in light of those painful moments and those hard moments.
Those are when you were the hero.
You've probably played both of those roles.
But the ultimate badass softy, really,
and the strongest character in any story
is when you elevate yourself to the guide.
When you see the role in life
as not winning your own story anymore,
but really helping other people win.
And the way that guides show up in stories, in movies
is really with two characteristics, empathy and authority.
Both of those things are key to the guide's role in the story.
Empathy is they show up and understand the pain
that the hero is going through
or the struggle the hero is going through.
So Yoda had to train to be a Jedi.
He knows what it was like to be a Jedi.
He knows what it's like to fight the dark side.
He's been there.
That's empathy.
So he understands and has compassion for Luke Skywalker.
However, he also has authority.
He is strong.
He is wise.
And he doesn't back down from his authority.
If Yoda in the story, in Star Wars,
like Luke comes in and goes,
you know, I don't know if the force
is really going to be strong enough.
And Yoda goes, yeah, me either.
I'm kind of worried about it too.
That doesn't serve Yoda and it doesn't serve Luke.
He stands strong in his authority and his empathy
and Luke ends up winning the day.
And so that is really, again, going back to this whole idea,
that is really what I've discovered
is the foundation for being a badass softy.
When you show up as a leader
with your competency and authority,
you show up with your strength.
That is not backing down.
That is not being arrogant.
It's not, no, it's just saying, I know what I'm doing.
I've been here before and I have a path forward for us.
That's competency and authority.
And there's usually some kind of demonstration
of that in your past, years of experience,
testimonies, achievements, awards.
But then you also show up with empathy,
this idea that you understand what people are going through
and you lean into that for them.
Leaders who show up with those two characteristics
are the most effective leaders
because if you shrink in your authority,
people will not follow you.
If you're like always kind of wondering and questioning
where we're supposed to go and why we're supposed to go there,
nobody's gonna follow that.
But also if you show up without kindness and heart,
people are not gonna follow that too.
There's a lot of research around
how the two of those things together
actually create the best type of leaders,
which ultimately create the best type of teams,
which create an environment where people,
retention increases, where recruitment is easier,
all the, and not only for your team, but your customers.
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Amazing stuff, Dr. JJ.
When I'm listening to you
and I'm thinking of our listener right now
who let's say they're the CEO of the company,
they're the owner.
God, I thought I was going to be the hero.
I'm the person fixing the person's car.
But what I'm getting from you is that the hero
is the customer who is being taken care of
either by the owner or the service advisor
or our specialists in the bays
who we have the empathy for the issue,
or the problem we have authority to get it done.
And we're exercising that as the guide.
You know, let me take it out of this industry for a second.
But if I was to go to a gym
and I walk into a gym and I say to a trainer,
hey, I'm here to lose 30 pounds.
And that trainer goes, me too.
That's high empathy, but that person is not my guide.
I don't want a friend who's going,
somebody brings their car into your dealership
and you're like, I don't know what we're doing,
but man, that really sucks.
That's high empathy, that's toxic empathy,
but it actually, I'm not going to trust you as my guide.
However, if I walk into that same gym and I say,
you know, hey, I'm here to lose 30 pounds
and the trainer lifts up a shirt and shows me a six pack
and goes, well, you got to get off your butt fatty.
Okay, high authority, but no empathy.
If I go into that same gym and I say,
I don't know why I'm going back for a third time,
but I go into the gym and I say,
hey, I'm here to lose 30 pounds.
And they say, I get it.
I used to be 30 pounds overweight too,
but I've actually developed a program.
I took off that weight.
I've kept it off for about 10 years
and I've helped about a hundred other people
do the same thing.
That's empathy and authority.
I will tell you, when it comes to cars,
you know, I'll be a little vulnerable here.
When you're a man, I think a lot of times
you think you have to know cars,
you have to be good at cars, it's like all those things.
I am not.
I will just tell you right now, I am not.
I had, my first car I bought was a VW bug
and I bought it because I was told it was easy to work on
and I thought that's what men do
as they work on their cars, you know, and all this stuff.
And very quickly I found a friend
who was a good mechanic who worked on it for me.
So there is, I'll be very honest again,
this is me being vulnerable.
There is a lot of shame around the fact
that I don't understand cars.
I'm not good with cars.
I'm not a good mechanic.
So when I go into a shop,
where I go anywhere to get my car taken care of,
and the first thing somebody says is,
why didn't you come in earlier?
Or something like that, right?
What they're doing in that moment
is not understand that I'm the hero, quote unquote,
of their story.
I may be stupid when it comes to cars and they're not.
So they can't come in and treat me
like I shouldn't have the same knowledge
and expertise as them.
If they just said to me, look, I get it,
sometimes those lights come on
and it can be really overwhelming.
That's all they need.
That's a moment of empathy and then say, we got you.
Let me just take a look at this and here,
let me show you exactly why I'm gonna do
the things I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna trust that person the rest of my life
to go back to them because they treated me like a human.
They treated me with empathy,
but then also stepped in an authority,
in a story that I have no competency in
and they helped me win.
I walk out of there, I'm the hero of my own story.
You're the hero of your own story.
Every customer that comes into your shop
is a hero of their own story.
If we try to make ourselves the hero of the story,
we actually then enter into a competing story
with our customer, right?
In two hero stories, one hero's gotta win
and one's gotta lose,
which actually makes one of those heroes a villain
because they're trying to defeat the other one, right?
Shop, if you're trying to win in your customer story,
it means you're trying to get more money from them
and you're trying to, and they can see that, right?
They can see that and feel that
and they're not gonna come back.
They're not gonna recommend people to you.
Instead, you need to think in terms of CarMax, okay?
CarMax is, I believe,
one of the greatest guide companies on the planet
because CarMax, first of all,
is the largest used car dealer in America,
like not even close, right?
Like by two to three times with all the closest competitors.
They have grown every single year,
including during the 2018 turn down.
If you go to CarMax,
you will pay more for the exact same car
than you would on another lot, right?
Like I can go to a used car dealer closer to me
that's smaller, I can find a deal
and I will most likely pay about $2,000 less
than I would pay by going to CarMax.
CarMax charges more for their cars
than local dealerships around here anyway in Nashville.
However, when I go to CarMax,
they are not trying to play the hero in the story.
They say, we understand buying a car is really overwhelming
and it's really hard and it's confusing
and you don't know if you're getting a good deal.
They start really with empathy.
They go, we get it, car dealers suck.
Basically, all their commercials are,
used car salesmen suck, we get that.
That's starting with empathy.
Then they step in with some authority
and they go, which is why?
We make sure we have this 18 point inspection
that makes sure that you're not gonna get a lemon
and our prices are fixed
so you don't actually have to worry about any bargaining.
They actually make more money and have more success
that can charge more by starting with empathy
than they do with their authority.
Compare that to other car dealers who are like,
we're the best lot in town.
We're gonna give you the best deal.
That's trying to make them the hero of the story.
That's what I mean by hero versus guide.
When you show up and go, we're the best,
you see these car commercials
of where these guys are taking chainsaws
or cutting guys in half, I'm crazy Larry.
And if I'm cutting this 50% off of everything,
you're gonna get the best deal with me.
They're trying to be the hero of that story.
CarMax comes in and goes, that's crazy.
We understand that that's crazy and that's overwhelming
and you get overwhelmed, confused, you feel gross
when you go to a car dealership,
you feel like you're getting ripped off, we get it.
So we're gonna take care of that for you.
Make sure you don't get a lemon
and you're not gonna have to bargain.
The price on the car is the price you're gonna pay.
And to be honest, that sticker price is a couple,
when I recognize it, that sticker price is a couple thousand
dollars and I will choose to buy CarMax over a car dealership
because they have empathy for my story.
You took me off my top dead center and I'm comfortable
and I'm happy and I'm confident.
You said something that just rocked my world.
You said, here's the deal.
And I was just hit by that
because as you were explaining along the way
as to how we were clarifying who we are,
what we do, why we do it.
And we said, here's the deal.
Knowing our prices are fixed, here's the deal.
If you came in and you needed some heavy work done
on your vehicle and we need to do a lot of deep end diagnostics
to figure out what was right or wrong
and then we finally came up with a price
and we didn't say it is $1,200.
We said, here's the deal.
We have already set up why we're so good at it.
We've given empathy to their problems.
We brought authority to the play
and I don't think we're doing that enough in our industry
by explaining why we're so good at what we do
that when we say the word deal,
Dr. JJ, it's almost like the word deal
has a connotation in it.
When it comes to storytelling,
when you are writing the story,
people will go where you tell them to go.
When you tell a good story,
people will follow it logically.
And so when you set up and say, here's the deal.
And you're just kind of being honest about it all.
And say that situation,
you're gonna charge them $1,200 for this fix.
You can say, here's the thing, I get it.
I know that maintenance on a car can feel really expensive.
But let me explain to you what we've done
that will prevent something worse in the future.
And then you can list all the different points of inspection
that you look through,
the other options you tried to look at
to see if you could do it differently.
Instead of kind of hiding that,
putting that in front of people that shows authority.
But when you start with the empathy first
and go, look, I get it,
this probably is not what you wanted to hear this morning.
However, here's the deal.
And you're walking people down this path
and showing them where you're headed.
One of the other characteristics of a guide in a story
is that they affirm the transformation of the hero.
This is what I mean by that.
Is that in a movie, you'll always see
at the end of the movie, Yoda, Dumbledore,
they'll kind of come back
and they'll almost give like a tip of the hat to the hero,
like a wink of like, you did it kid, you did it.
That is really important in the role of the guide.
They affirm the transformation.
They tell the hero, you're making the right decision,
you're moving forward in the right way.
When it comes to business,
if it really is the best decision for the customer,
your job is to tell them this is a good decision.
That's actually one of the things you can do is say,
the smart thing to do is to blank, right?
So if you were to say, like, here's the reality,
we did come up with another option.
You can just get your oil changed today.
And that's fine, you can actually do that.
The smart decision would be to make this repair now.
What you're doing in that moment is you're actually naming.
So here's, let's take it back to me for a second.
I'm in that situation.
I'm insecure about my ability to manage my car,
to make good decisions about my car.
I wait too long to get my oil change, all of those things.
When you tell me, if I'm in that room,
a smart car owner would blank, would make this decision.
What you're doing is you're actually adding value
to your services.
Because when you do that,
you're actually transforming me into a good car owner.
That's part of the process that the guide brings to the table,
is affirm.
Now, don't be a jerk and like make,
could be like, they don't actually need to spend $1,200.
And you're telling them, well, a smart person would make,
that becomes manipulative.
You become the villain, you know,
people will stop working with you
if that's the case in the future.
But if it really is, you know, if they walk out of there
in two months, they're going to be paying $5,000 for repairs,
then you should tell them a smart car owner would make a decision.
That is, or when I say, hey, a lot of the smart car owners
that I work with, or people who are getting ahead,
or when they make that decision, affirm it.
Don't just go, okay, well, that's how much you charge.
Say, I think that's a really wise decision.
When you say that, when you talk and help them transform
their own view of themselves,
you're actually playing the guide in a really strong way
and you're adding value to your services.
And as long as the guide understands,
and I'm going to ask you a question,
that the customer is the hero, right?
And that doesn't mean that you shrink.
It doesn't mean that the customer is always right.
It doesn't mean any of that.
And it doesn't mean also that you don't talk
about yourself ever or your authority.
It means that what you do is you're understanding
where your customer is coming from,
what problems they're experiencing,
what internal struggle they're experiencing,
they're insecure, they're overwhelmed.
And your job is to solve that problem.
Your job is to not be impressive.
Your job is not to get more money out of them.
Your job is to make sure that they win their story.
In that day, when their car is falling apart,
when they're overwhelmed and they can't pick their kids up
from school, you have empathy for that situation
and you stand strong in your authority to help them solve it.
When you do that, not only do they win,
but ultimately you win.
You are the strongest character in the story.
When you're trying to push and sell things they don't need
and all that stuff, again, you're becoming a villain
and you're making yourself a hero,
which ultimately heroes are weak in story.
If you watch a movie, heroes are always in trouble.
They're overwhelmed, they're in trouble,
they're insecure, right?
They're bloody, they're beat up.
Like you could almost in any movie,
especially like an action movie,
pause at any point in the movie and ask yourself the question,
is the hero having a good time right now?
And the answer would be no.
Heroes struggle, guides are steady, guides are strong,
guides are confident.
So when I say don't play the hero,
what I'm not meaning is like just go,
yes, whatever you want and shrink in your authority
or kowtow to a customer or just give in.
No, that's not, no, a true guide would never do that.
Stand strong, but understand that when you help your customers win,
you're going to win in the wrong long run
and you're playing the strongest character in the story.
Not just for your customers, but for your team members as well.
This is where the leadership aspect comes in.
When you actually understand that your team members
are also the hero of their own story.
They're the hero in the story.
You play a character in their story.
Are you the villain?
Are you a victim?
Are you the guide?
What role are you playing?
But you have to understand, especially as you've come up,
let's say you were working right alongside some of these guys
and then you elevate and become their manager,
that's really intimidating.
That's really kind of, all of a sudden you're over a whole line.
It's like that can be really scary.
And what happens a lot of times is that when we get elevated
or we start hiring people who were our friends
because we now own a new business,
all of a sudden we feel like we need to puff up our chest
and be strong.
And again, you're actually playing the weak character
in that moment.
Be the guide.
Play the guide.
I have about 50 more questions that I want to ask you,
but this is a perfect time to thank you for being here
and to fill up our brains with the story guide,
the story brand messaging.
I want to know so much more about the bad ass softy
from a leadership point of view.
Would you come back and we can do that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, wow.
I'm thrilled.
What I do is help companies from the messaging side do that,
right?
Like kind of do that in their marketing.
And then I also do that with leaders
and help them with their communication
and their team dynamics
and help them kind of set up and understand
what roles they play.
So it works together.
The way that I think that if you're in leadership,
you need to know how to communicate by being the guide,
whether that's with team or your customers.
And so that's kind of the bad ass softy side kind of takes
that messaging piece that started with marketing
and really expands it into kind of broader things
of like how to lead yourself, your team,
and ultimately how to treat your customers well.
This kind of reminds me if you come back again, Dr. JJ,
in the series we've done with psychologist David Wyman
and he comes on like once a quarter.
We talk about these psychological things
and I love your whole thing.
Come back again.
How do we get a whole of you badasssofty.com?
Is it?
So Badass Softy is the podcast and you can go there
and listen to more conversations like this
with other leaders myself.
And then also just drjjpeterson.com.
That's my site drjjpeterson.com.
And that's where people can go to work with me.
Drjjpeterson.com.
This was great.
Thank you so much.
Thank to Eric Svetberg for introducing both of us.
Boy, I can't wait to publish this for a world to listen to this
and have you come back.
Thanks again.
About this episode
Exploring the dynamics of leadership and storytelling, Jay Peterson, a PhD in communications, shares insights on the four key roles in any business narrative: victim, villain, hero, and guide. He emphasizes the importance of empathy and authority in leadership, arguing that true leaders should aim to be guides rather than heroes. By understanding customers as heroes in their own stories, leaders can foster better relationships and create a positive impact within their teams and businesses. This episode offers practical advice for improving communication and leadership skills in the automotive industry.
Original notes
Thanks to our Partners, NAPA Auto Care and NAPA TRACS
Watch Full Video Episode
Dr. J.J. Peterson, PhD in communications, explains how business owners can elevate their leadership by stepping into the role of the Guide instead of operating as the hero, villain, or victim. Using proven storytelling frameworks, Peterson outlines four core characters, Victim, Villain, Hero, and Guide, and why self-awareness of these roles is critical to effective leadership.
Victims lack agency and believe outcomes are beyond their control. Villains respond to pain by inflicting it on others, gaining short-term power but long-term resentment. Heroes work to redeem pain but are often overwhelmed and unstable—especially when leaders try to play that role in business. The most powerful role is the Guide: a steady, confident mentor who combines empathy and authority to help others win.
Peterson shows that when leaders stop trying to be the hero and instead guide customers and team members, who are the true heroes of the story, culture improves, trust deepens, recruitment becomes easier, and retention increases. The result is the Badass Softie balance: driven leadership grounded in genuine care for people.
Dr J.J. Peterson, https://www.drjjpeterson.com/
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