Everyday Driver Car Debate Oct 7, 2025

The Most Fun Car At Each Price Point, Van Life In A Car, Jail Speeds In First Gear | Episode 1,015

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Car

Lexus LS

The Lexus LS is a luxury car that helped make the Lexus brand famous. It is known for being very comfortable and having many high-tech features.

Brand

Lexus

Lexus is a brand of luxury cars made by Toyota. They are known for being comfortable and high-end.

Brand

Audi

Audi is a car brand from Germany that makes luxury cars with high-tech features.

Car

EQ lineup

The EQ lineup is a series of electric cars from Mercedes-Benz, showing that they are focusing on making more environmentally friendly vehicles.

Car

Maybach GLS 600

The Maybach GLS 600 is a very expensive and luxurious SUV made by Mercedes-Benz. It's designed for people who want the best in comfort and technology while driving.

Car

Lexus LX

The Lexus LX is a large luxury SUV that is designed for both comfort and off-road driving. It's like a fancy version of the Toyota Land Cruiser, with more upscale features.

Car

The Toyota Land Cruiser is a big, tough SUV that can handle rough roads and off-road adventures. It's also quite luxurious inside, making it a popular choice for those who want both comfort and capability.

Car

Lexus Century

The Lexus Century is a fancy car made by Lexus, which is known for being very luxurious and comfortable. It's mainly sold in Japan and is considered a status symbol.

Brand

GM

GM stands for General Motors, which is a big car company that makes many different brands of cars, like Chevrolet and Cadillac. They are known for their large variety of vehicles and advancements in car technology.

Term

electric vehicles

Electric vehicles are cars that run on electricity instead of gasoline. They are better for the environment and can save you money on fuel.

Term

tax credit

A tax credit helps reduce the amount of taxes you have to pay. For electric cars, it means you can get some money back when you buy one, making it cheaper for you.

Company

Rivian

Rivian is a company that makes electric trucks and SUVs. They focus on creating vehicles that are good for outdoor adventures.

Concept

electric vehicle (EV)

An electric vehicle (EV) is a type of car that runs on electricity instead of gasoline. They are better for the environment and can save you money on fuel.

Car

Toyota Supras

The Toyota Supra is a popular sports car known for its speed and performance. It's often compared to other sports cars like the Nissan Z.

Car

Nissan Z

Car

BMW Z4

The BMW Z4 is a stylish sports car that you can drive with the top down if you choose the convertible version. It's known for being comfortable and having strong performance.

Company

FCP Euro

FCP Euro is a company that sells car parts. They focus on providing high-quality parts that are made by the original manufacturers, which means they fit and work like the parts that came with the car.

Term

lifetime replacement guarantee

A lifetime replacement guarantee is a promise that if something you buy breaks, the company will replace it for you for as long as you own it.

Part

brake pads

Brake pads are the parts in a car that help it stop by pressing against the wheels.

Car

Mazda Miata

Car

Mazda Mx5

Term

salvage title

A salvage title means the car was in a bad accident or had serious damage, and the insurance company decided it wasn't worth fixing. This can make it harder to sell or insure the car.

Term

6.2 L V8

A 6.2 L V8 engine is a powerful type of engine with eight cylinders that helps cars go really fast. It's often found in sports cars and muscle cars.

Car

LS3

The LS3 is a powerful V8 engine made by Chevrolet. It's often used in sports cars and can be swapped into other cars to make them faster.

Company

us. We're glad to have you back with us.

And uh we have we we've decided we're

not even going to do questions this

time. We're just going to do the actual

news

>> so we can get to conclusions.

>> We're going to get to conclusions. We're

going to do an actual uh idea that we

have that came from one of your

questions actually. That is the whole

topic Tuesday about great cars at

different price points. This is good.

>> We're going to have really two really

interesting car debates, some

conclusions. It's still going to be a

long podcast. We're very excited about

it. I am going to jump in first with two

very different bits of news about the

current market.

>> The current car market.

>> I want to like shuffle papers or like

>> Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's that kind of

>> stack some papers or do something to

>> for sure. This is the news. The Lexus

LS. This is the car that put Lexus on

the map.

>> Yes.

>> This is the car that when they announced

>> how it's changed through the years.

>> Seriously, when they announced it, it

was remember all of the the uh champagne

glasses on the on the hood and the whole

thing. I mean, this was Lexus

>> going almost too far to prove a point.

>> Yes.

>> And this is what made Lexus a real brand

and a real luxury competitor. And

honestly, the the concept of Lexus then

carries forward to this day. But the LS

really put them on the map and it's now

dead. I am showing a photo of the first

gen and the current gen. They're doing

like a weird heritage edition thing for

the last few people that are going to

buy it that I guess are LS fans.

>> Please buy it,

>> I guess.

>> Does this mean they're no longer a

luxury brand? if they're getting rid of

the car that launched their brand.

>> No, because what it shows is where the

market is going and that is away from

these big sedans into SUVs. Okay. So,

you know, obviously Audi is hanging on,

BMW is hanging on. Uh Mercedes, of

course, is still trying to lead the

charge because the the S-Class is their

signature vehicle, but even they leaned

in with the EQ lineup and thought they

were going to go away from all their

normal stuff. Of course, that's having

pullback, but very interesting that this

is dead. I see this less as a failure on

the part of Lexus because I don't see it

as a failure on the part of Lexus. I see

it as a real bellweather of where the

market is.

>> I did see a Maybach GLS600 in town. That

is the official shuttle vehicle for one

of the high-end luxury hotels in Park

City. It is the Maybach version. And I

thought,

>> wonder if Lexus could do some sort of

luxury brand above Lexus and do the

>> Sequoia chassis. They'll just build the

equivalent because it was the S-Class

that they chased to launch that car,

>> but they'll just do it with the new LX.

>> Now do it with the new Land Cruiser LX

thing. A super luxury. I don't know what

is the Lexus, I don't know, Century

Edition. What are they going to call it?

I don't know. Yeah, they could. So,

that's happened. I I don't have really

any commentary other than this is a real

representation of where we are. The

other thing going on representation of

where we are is the Ford and GM news.

Not a collaboration. I mean, not

officially. I mean, they've done things

>> maybe soon,

>> maybe. Yeah, they they've done things

like, you know, the 10-speed

transmission together, and they've

shared technology. Even though they

supposedly hate each other, they've

shared technology. But the reason we're

talking GM and Ford right now is an

interesting little, how do I put this

tactically? It's a loophole. Let's put

it that way. It's a loophole. Okay?

Because, as you've probably heard, this

is the beginning of October. for

recording this.

>> And there has been actually an increase

>> in the buying and leasing of electric

vehicles here in the US because the tax

credit, the $7,500 tax credit was ending

September 30th. So, it just ended a few

days before we're recording this. Okay.

A lot of people were buying and leasing

right up until that deadline. It it

turned all of the electric cars

positively. Rivians had massive sales

because everybody knew it was going to

fall off a cliff when the EV uh tax

credit ended except Ford and GM. I'm

sure they have some very well- paid

lawyers and beyond that some even more

well- paid accountants. And those two

groups got together and had some coffee

and they came to the conclusion good and

they even apparently talked to the IRS

to confirm their reading was correct

because the reading is this. in order to

still qualify for the tax credit. All it

meant is that a customer had to at least

put an initial down payment on a

vehicle, even if they didn't take

delivery before September 30th,

and they could still get the tax credit

officially. So, what GM and Ford have

done is had their finance arms pay an

initial down payment on all of the

remaining EV inventory, which

essentially puts a pin in all of those

cars with a $7,500 potential tax credit

sitting waiting in the wings because the

first payment's been paid. So, if you go

and lease a GM or Ford vehicle through

the end of the year or whenever all of

these uh ones that have been marked

actually sell, you could still get this

credit.

So, while this is

the letter of the law,

>> technically legal.

>> I don't think this is the spirit of the

law, but that's I mean, not that like

that doesn't happen with every car

company in some way, but I just think

this is really interesting. This is

technically news. They have officially

done this.

>> So, you could still get a tax credit if

you rush out to your GM or Ford dealer

right now. Even though the credits are

gone, you could still do it because

they've lived in the gray area.

>> This is going to bite them somehow. This

is maybe I I don't predict success with

this. It's a short-term solve.

>> What it what it does is it allows them

to continue to say and I bet you money

you're about to see some sort of

national commercial, be it YouTube or

somewhere where they talk about tax

credits are still available. They're

going to advertise this in order to move

stuff in this last quarter, maybe into

next year. They have figured out a way

to do that. They are going to market it

and promote it. We'll see if it's a

problem. What it's not going to do, it's

not going to change the trajectory of

EVs. Whatever is going to happen with

EVs is irrelevant to this maneuver.

>> It'll only change the balance sheet for

Yes, of course it will this fiscal year

for them. And that's all that matters to

report to Wall Street to show whatever

they want to show. What

>> you have to grow every single quarter,

Paul. That's the only That's the only

thing you're supposed to ever show Wall

Street. You grow every single quarter.

You didn't know this. Successful

companies don't matter anymore, Paul.

Selling more product irrelevant. Just do

you look on paper like your groove from

last time so we can give the appropriate

people bonuses. I'm being very cynical

today. Welcome to the podcast. By the

way, you and I want to be in Europe. The

two of us are wearing Europe shirts

today. So, apparently we want to be in

Europe. We will be going back to Europe

next year. We'd love to have you with

us. There will be a couple of trips. In

fact, we're going to do a cool one

>> to Portugal and Spain,

>> which really fun.

>> Very excited for 2026. That's going to

be great. A lot planned.

>> Uh oh, okay. You've jumped to other

news. I've got some more news and that

is based on an article on the drive from

Chris Chilton who reported on Nissan

Zcars now out selling Toyota Supras. He

defines a number of different reasons.

So here is the Nissan USA website and

I'm very intrigued by this because why

now?

>> Why are Nissan Z's just now starting to

sell? And through the third quarter of

2025,

they've more than doubled Supra sales.

But that almost 5,000 versions of the

Nissan Z have been sold to about 2500,

maybe a little bit less GR Supras.

>> The question is, how much has the Supra

slid as well?

>> It has slid a little bit and now it's an

older car. It obviously came out before

the Z did. And also Chris reports that

the Zcar starts at a lower price.

>> Yes, it does.

>> But I think this just shows the market

is hungry for these car. The Z's now

been out for a few years. Why is it now

just starting to catch fire and outs

sell its competition? Why now?

>> Less money. I guess you can get one.

Yeah, there's the special edition coming

up that hits the, you know, Chris writes

the hits the hearts of Z owners like 300

ZX owners and all that is fine, which

proves that special editions work, I

guess.

>> I suppose. Yeah.

>> But I just think it is a reflection of

people want sports cars, people want GT

cars, and there is a der of product

offerings available in the market. This

the Supra's been out. Everybody kind of

knows. All right, the GR Supra, it's

good. We've had it. The Z4, great.

What's next? Oh, the the Z car.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I

>> It seems everything else is dying to me.

>> It's the one that people haven't seen

enough of yet. Yeah.

>> Okay. Maybe.

>> But it shows for me room to run for this

market. So, whoever comes out with the

next ZN Supra competitor, whatever that

is,

>> I think they will do very well. This

shows hunger in the market to me.

>> It's never going to be a volume selling

world. It just isn't. But I do like that

that at least exists. That is

fascinating little point.

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This our topic Tuesday, and it's more

list time because we like lists here at

Everyday Driver.

I I went a couple places with this and I

want to put it in perspective. Our our

listener Kyle Bliss wrote in as a

question and we knew this was a topic

Tuesday right away. It couldn't be

answered quickly. The question was,

"What's the most fun car at certain

price points?" And he gave the

following. 5K, 10K, 20K, 50K, 75K, and

100K. What is the most Now, I want to

reiterate the most fun car.

>> Yes.

>> So, I let that filter through my headsp

space. Yeah. And I came up with it needs

to be lightweight, focused, meaning it

doesn't need to do anything else but be

fun.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Involving and probably special and

unique. Those are my kind of personal

categories for it. But again, 5 10

20,000 50,000 75,000 and 100,000. What

is the most fun car? Doesn't need to do

groceries, doesn't need to carry family,

does I mean doesn't need to do anything

else but just you get in it and you have

fun driving it, which is a fascinating

thing. And then I went down an

unexpected rabbit hole.

>> Okay?

>> And I have to start there. And maybe

it's a rabbit hole, maybe it's the

obvious, but I'm just going to enjoy the

fun of the following. Okay? All right.

And that is,

>> okay, for $5,000,

>> you could get yourself a first gen,

there's quite a few out there, actually,

in a Mazda MX5 Miata.

>> Yeah.

>> For $5,000.

>> Yep. Yep. For $10,000, you could get

yourself a, believe it or not, in C is

even possible. For $10,000, a Mazda MX5

Miata for $10,000. For $20,000, you

could get yourself a slightly used

fourth generation MX5 RF Miata or a

convertible, doesn't matter. But the

point is the current gen is down to 20

in used market.

>> That's pretty amazing. 2017 here. Yeah.

So, that's the $20,000 figure. For

$50,000, you could get yourself a with a

couple dollars left over for taxes, a

brand new MX5 Miata RF. I went on the on

the site and literally built one today

just to see how much I could geted

43,155

for an RF with all the goodies. So, once

taxes, it's a $50,000 car. There you go.

However, here's what's even funnier. I

was looking at Miatas at all price

points today and I came across a guy who

really, really doesn't want to sell his

Miata.

Okay,

>> because we're showing the photo of a

person who is listing their 1996 MX5

Miata base with $150,000 miles. He says

in the description he really really

didn't think about selling it until

right now and it is listed I'm hoping

this is a typo. It is listed at $50,000

even

150,000 milei first gen Miata.

He would like $50,000 please. And it

says in the description, "Never thought

I'd sell it until recently." This is a

man who does not want to sell his Miata.

But for $50,000 working with our list,

you could have a Miata.

>> Everybody has their price.

>> Everybody has their price. But I'm still

going because we have two more price

points. $75,000. I got you. How about an

MX5 Miata Sport fully built race car?

It's an NC Miata. Here it is. $75,000

currently being offered for 117,000 mi.

Uh, it has a it has a salvage title

because of course it does. It's a race

car. It's an insec Miata. 2006 Miata

Sport race car. And you thought that

$100,000 I'd get stumped, but I didn't.

$100,000. Everybody, you can just go

right on over a couple of years back.

Selling on Bring a Trailer was Flying

Miata's actual test car with a 6.2 L V8

in it. It was the Flying Miata LS3

6-speed. It's sold on Bring a Trailer

for $99,787,

which we can all agree is just h 100red

grand. So, I have just done the entire

list, Kyle, with just Miatas. And I'm

saying that because I do not intend to

return to them again. We can acknowledge

yes, Miata could be the answer, but

let's go somewhere else. I agree to

that. And as funny as that is, I don't

think there's another car on the planet

that you can do that with.

>> It is pretty unique. In fact, one of the

other rules I gave for myself is on all

of these price points, I never wanted to

touch the same car again.

>> I agree to that. Yes.

>> I also wanted to be like, okay, I'm

going to touch it there and I'm not

going to touch it again. Even though you

can find some of them at various price

points, but you're right. I've just run

the table with an MX5 Miata. I ran the

table. I'm amazed that you did the

high-end Miatas. I mean, okay, race car,

but then I had no idea that that was a

$100,000, the test car for it was out

there somewhere. I knew there was one or

100 grand out there somewhere. This is

what happens with bring a trailer and

things that can't be made anymore.

>> Auction price though.

>> $100,000 Miata. It's probably brilliant.

I doubt it's $100,000.

>> I mean, if we're spending $100,000, you

got to really like Miatas to walk away

or walk past, as you say, everything

else you get for 100 grand. But again,

for those of you, look, for those of you

watching right now or listening and are

thinking Miata is always the answer, I

have proven Miata is the answer. I guess

you can turn the podcast off and we're

going to go other places now. But I did

think I could run the table and and I

got hard. The guy trying to sell his NA

for $50,000 made it kind of funny, but

>> I thought you were going to say, "Well,

at five grand, NA. At 10 grand, two NAS,

and at 20 grand, four NAS.

>> You could stack up." That's funny. At 50

grand, you can get an NC and four NAS or

>> what what's crazy to me is that you

really can get the the early ones of the

current gen, the ND3 at 20. That really

does amaze me. Which means every

generation you could find for under 20

>> and then above that, how crazy do you

want to go? And and I am not Look, I I

am a guy that likes the MX5 Miata. I

don't fit in most of them, but I do like

them. Anytime we drive them, we enjoy

them. This is a car that epitomizes fun.

It's not all that's out there, but I had

to follow the joke.

>> The whole the whole list just Miata and

>> pretty good. You did well with it. You

did well.

>> Okay. So, are you going to come back to

your actual list? Go somewhere else and

I'll come back to my actual list later,

which includes, by the way, no Miatas.

>> Okay, fair enough. Well, now that you've

done

>> I've covered it, so I'm going to go

endlessly. I am going to jump in with my

list here. And it does include at the

$5,000 price point the NA because it

does need to be acknowledged here.

>> Yes. Agreed. Yes. But what I did for my

list was similar to yours, cars need to

be not mentioned again. There were some

real close ones that I couldn't decide.

So there are a few at certain price

points that I I just couldn't decide on

the right one. So there they all get a

gold star at that price point. They all

fit in there.

>> All right, good.

>> But also, I ignored trim level

>> maintenance issues like I wonder if it's

going to run.

>> I ignored year. I just went for pure fun

only. Doesn't matter. The powertrain

doesn't matter. The maintenance, how

scary it is. Like, oh,

>> I bet I know a couple of cars you're

going to bring up.

>> Don't buy one of those because of

whatever reason. I just went purely for

fun. Imagining that all these cars

worked perfectly.

>> No, they'll be fine. They're all going

to be fine, Paul. I don't know what

you're questioning.

>> Any Miata under 5K, and it doesn't have

to be an NA. It can be really any Miata

5K. We've always said when you buy a

$5,000 car, you're not buying a $5,000

car because of all the stuff that's it's

going to need. But mostly these will

just run and it doesn't matter the

mileage. So, okay, $5,000. I'm just

simply acknowledge that. Acknowledging

it starting there.

>> I love it. It's great.

>> Quickly moving on to the second category

at $10,000 would be for me the Ford

Fiesta ST. They are 10 grand above and

below. It doesn't have to be right bang

on. I kind of gave myself, you know, a

few thousand leeway on either side of

the price point.

>> But Fiesta ST, we've driven them

recently and I cannot I'm so reminded I

cannot believe how fun they are.

>> And it also doesn't matter the drive

wheels. It's just a fun car to drive.

You think, I hope it lasts. I hope the

turbo doesn't go. I hope the maintenance

is fine. But you know what? Throw all of

that out. Is it just pure fun? For 10

grand, you can get one of these right

now. Absolutely. M

>> get yourself a Fiesta ST at $10,000. Yes

to that.

>> It's at the $20,000 price level where

things start to diverge a little bit for

me, but 20K, I went and found $20,000

GR86s. The problem is at that price

level, there's a lot of branded titles

on AutoTis

>> because that's the bottom that's

current. I did find some at that price

point that have higher miles that are

not branded titles, so that does count.

Here is our show car that we had for a

long time. And I do miss that car.

>> It's a great car. Yeah.

>> And then most recently at the Toyota

event that we hit in May 2025. This is

taken at Eagles Canyon Raceway, the new

Yuzu edition of the GR86 body kit, quad

pipes out back in that brilliant yellow

color. Looks fantastic. No changes as

far as power, but still brilliant car to

drive. We had this on track and really

loved it. Really reminded us again. So

the Yuzu edition, this continues on. I

just show this again as a representative

example of GR86s.

But along with that, at the next price

point,

>> moving to

>> I wondered if you'd go here.

>> 50K.

>> Uh-huh.

>> The 1993 FD Mazda RX7 is just fun. And I

had to ignore the worrisome rotary. Will

this blow up? Do I need a new engine?

How long will it last? You know what?

I'm going to zing it to 9,000 right now

because I'm here and the car is awesome

>> and driving this is just so much fun.

2500 lb.

>> Mhm.

>> It's brilliant to drive. When you are

driving it and you're, you know, midc

corner and you're having fun, all of

those things don't matter how much you

paid, what maintenance it might need.

True, something might bring.

>> Phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah.

>> It's just fun. Pure fun at that time.

So, this had to make my list. But of

course, I could not leave off the JCW

Mini Cooper. I'm also showing the GP

because at $50,000.

>> Now, you and I have not driven this. I

really liked the four of them in the

world.

>> Well, yeah, they were $50,000 Mini. It

was It was along the lines that, you

know, we thought Corolla, $50,000 Cora.

Well, here's a $50,000 Mini. And you

know what? This intrigues the daylights

out of me because I love this third gen

so much. This had to make my list.

Again, weird front-wheel drive, but it

was so entertaining. It was so

interesting and fun.

>> But at $50,000, I cannot leave off your

lease.

>> These are no longer 30. They're not 40.

At $50,000, you want a decent one. Yep.

So, $50,000 for all three of these cars.

>> 40 to 60, you could certainly get a very

nice lease. Yeah,

>> it's really brilliant at this price

level.

>> You're probably wondering where the

Cayman is at this point. It is next, but

it might not be the one you're thinking.

Oo, okay. Because at $75,000, I feel

like the Cayman R is the sweet spot.

>> These have dipped and they're now

starting to go back up. But any $75,000

in that price range, a Cayman R from

2011 and 2012 is the sweet spot here.

>> They are really great to drive.

>> 330 horsepower, lightweight, brilliant.

This is the still the hydraulic era of

steering. This is still the raw feeling

and it was personified in the R version.

I would actually consider having one of

these again and it's a different car

than a GT4 even.

>> Yes, it is.

>> And so the Cayman R is where the Cayman

and any Porsche lands on my list at

$75,000.

>> It's very good.

>> The runner up at the $75,000 price level

is the BMW 1M. And here is the 1M that

we track at one of our hooked on driving

track days. This was at uh Soma Raceway.

As a matter of fact, the hood is up,

cooling is happening. Awesome car. So,

the 1M was a nice runner up. Really like

this car for $75,000 somewhere there.

>> And at the top end, 100K, the most fun.

>> See, that's Yeah, it's it's hard because

at 100K, I struggle with this, too,

because you start to get into cars that

are iconic. You start to get into cars

that are badge perception machines. You

start to get into cars that are trying

to be more than just fun because you're

spending so much money. So, I'm very

curious where you went. I wanted to

leave all that off.

>> Okay.

>> The $100,000 winner

>> alongside your Amira, but it would be

the Avora GT.

>> Okay.

>> It's not the flashiest car out there.

It's not Lotus isn't the flashiest

badge.

>> Mhm. Mhm.

>> But what I love is the pure fun, the

pure joy. Everything disappears.

Everything about, man, this is just a

built-up kit car to is the engine going

to survive? What about maintenance? What

about longevity? It's so much fun. It's

so such pure brilliance at $100,000 and

your Emir is absolutely included in that

for me. So,

>> the Avore is really compelling at that

price point. I do agree with you at that

it's it's hard. I know this sounds

weird. I felt like the $100,000 level

was harder than I expected it to be, but

I'm going to jump back all the way to

the beginning to the $5,000 level. I

just realized that these cars are this

cheap. the Mini Cooper, the first gen

Mini Cooper, the R53. When BMW first

re-released the Mini Cooper, so starting

in 03,

>> you want an '05 or06 when the that first

gen was almost done, but this was the

only generation where they supercharged

it. The second generation was turbo,

right? And was a reliability disaster. I

mean, these have their issues, but the

crazy thing about a Mini

>> throwing all that out.

>> We are throwing all that out. I have

never driven one of these or had anyone

else around me drive one of these and

have them get out and see anything other

than that's really fun.

>> Yeah.

>> It just it kind of surprises you with

the fact that it's fun. You get in it

and it's quirky and it's a Mini and I've

heard these are cool and oh I drove one

before and whatever and you just get in

it and and there's just there's not any

other real conclusion. You're not like

it's super fast or oh my gosh it handles

great. The the feeling is just that was

just fun. Yeah. And then you look around

and they're all under five grand.

>> They're like the entire market is under

$5,000. So I just thought I don't think

you can spend $5,000, have more fun, and

have more options at five grand than a

Mini Cooper, the R53, the actual Cooper

Scharged.

What's crazy is the market was $5,000 a

few years ago when I bought Spot and I

looked again. It's $5,000 now. That's

just what these cost then. And here's

the crazy thing.

>> Cool. That's so cool.

>> The cleanest one out there, five grand.

The most beat down one out there, three

grand. That's the spread.

>> That's really ridiculous. So many Mini.

That is definitely my $5,000 choice. My

$10,000 choice may surprise you, but

they're down there. Early Gen 86s. I am

showing here a 2013, that's first year

Subaru BRZ Premium because those were

slightly nicer inside than the Scion FRS

of the same era. But you have your

choice. BRZ's scan F FRS's you're

spending $10,000. Now look, we can go

the one I'm showing on screen here is

showing for $8,000.

>> The point I want to make here,

>> but there's a swap, like I said, a few

thousand on each side of the

>> $10,000 in your pocket. You have choice

of the first gen 86. And I will go to

all of the downsides real quick.

>> Some people think the motor is going to

blow. Some motors have blown. Yes, it's

not as powerful as it should be. Yes,

there is a torque dip. All of these

things are reality. But we're talking

about fun.

>> Yes.

>> And I really have to argue

>> that at $10,000. More fun

>> than this. More fun. Just get in, drive

it. And also, here's the other thing

about this whole discussion. I'm not

imagining you in traffic.

>> This is you on a road you enjoy just

trying to drive for the fun of it.

>> Y.

>> Yep.

>> And this car, you spend $10,000 and you

take this car out on a fun road for the

day. you're going to have a good time.

You're going to enjoy it. So, I had to

put this and I can't believe they're

this low.

>> I mean,

>> I mean, high miles, but starting to get

there, but whatever.

>> But again, there were tons of options. A

$10,000 fun car. You are hardressed to

do better than an early 86. Jumping up

to 20. This is where I put the Porsches

of the world.

>> The first gen Boxster S. It's also a

convertible. You get convertible. You

didn't go Miata. You got a Boxster S.

This is the 987 generation. So, it's the

early bargain here.

>> Yes. I cannot believe it. This one I'm

showing here is 64,000 mi. A 2008

Boxster S for bang on $20,000.

>> That is

>> either side of the equation. Here's the

thing about this. At this price, you

spent $20,000. You got a Porsche badge.

You got Porsche engineering. You got a

really cool top that is actually all

weather year round.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm actually showing a Boxster S. You

got decent power.

This is going to feel quite luxurious

for 20 grand, even though it is a 20-y

old car.

>> And they're just fun.

>> Yeah.

>> And this early gen, I mean, you talked

about it with the the Cayman R,

hydraulic steering, and lighter weight

than you expect.

>> Yes.

>> But $20,000 for this, the fact that

they're out there, it's not like I found

the only one. Okay.

>> You know, I put in and just to defend

myself, I put in $22,000 as the cap on

AutoTest and was scrolling through

pages. Yeah. So, they're out there. I'm

jumping to 50. None of you will be

surprised. But if we're talking about

fun, it's the Elise. Doesn't need to be

my Elise. I obviously have pictures of

my Elise, so it's easy to show. But

>> if you're shopping for fun at $50,000,

>> I'm sorry, but it's not a Porsche

product. It's also not a Miata. You're

just shopping fun. Just the purpose of

this car is to drive and enjoy it and

have fun.

>> It's just the Elise. You're just That's

the end of the list.

>> Yeah.

>> Everything else is following it on the

list. And I don't say that as an owner.

I say that because people that drive in

a lease

>> are like, "Oh, oh, I see now." I mean,

you you're in that camp. Every time you

drive it, you're like, "Oh, that's

right. I get it now." Okay. And it isn't

>> midc corner. The sun's shining. The

corner's perfect. The line's great.

Like, uh,

>> I I cannot do better.

>> And it isn't good at everything. It

isn't good at most things, but just fun.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> The Lotus Elise wins at $50,000. I

jumped up to 75 and I had a few things

in there. The ones you had in there at

75, the the um the Cayman R. I debated

maybe putting a uh Boxster Spider of

that early gen in there. Like a lot. All

of that stuff is great. Lightweight, fun

to drive, etc. But I do have a

definitive winner for me. $75,000.

It dawned on me and I said, "Yep,

discussion's over. Alpine 110."

>> Okay, that's good.

>> $75,000. I am buying an Alpena A 110 and

I'm a very very happy boy.

>> Are these 50? Are these 50?

>> The the the ones you want are between 50

and 70. That's where they all are. So

$75,000 you could buy any Alpena 110.

>> Okay. I love it that that you went

Doesn't matter you doesn't matter where

in the world because the reality is

these are more expensive than leases.

>> Yeah.

>> Especially if you're buying one new cuz

you can't buy an Elise new. But that you

just these are still out there and

$75,000. I'm buying an Alpena 110. I'll

give you another one. Maybe at $75,000

I could afford to buy one that's not the

full price and import it and still drive

it here 1,000 mi a year. I don't know. I

just I'm done.

>> That would still be worth it.

>> It would be I'm done at $75,000 there.

And then that brings us to 100. And as

you already discovered, 100 was harder

than I thought it was going to be.

>> Yeah.

>> Because you start to get into this

sounds crazy, but quite a few options

between stuff that sells new at 100.

>> Yeah.

>> And stuff that has depreciated to 100.

>> Right. and then stuff where you could

just go crazy. If we're talking about

fun, do I just want to buy a track car?

Do I want to just spend $100,000 on a

track car?

>> Well, it's also badge perception because

the badge suggests fun, but not all of

those cars from Porsche and Ferrari and

all the all the brands. Not all of them

are as fun as something else that might

be older and lower priced. So, that

you've hit on it exactly. So, I have two

answers here. My first answer, if we're

shopping new 100,000, really the answer

is a mirror. I'm showing a picture of

both my V6 and also the four-cylinder.

And in this situation, I'm going to say,

"What driver are you?" I don't care. I

personally like the V6 manual

transmission. I did my one-year piece on

owning my Amira for a year. We put it

with the four-cylinder. We had a really

kind of fascinating discovery and

discussion about how the cars drive

differently. Slightly different steering

racks, very different uh power delivery.

There were more changes in field than we

anticipated. Yeah. So, that was really

cool. I say, "Which one of these are you

interested in?" because you can go out

right now with $100,000 and buy either

one of these new. There's options. I

actually like your Avora GT, but these

are brand new options. And that's what's

crazy and why I picked it. Not because I

own it, but because if I'm talking 100K

new,

>> it's actually a pretty small list of

stuff that's even trying to be fun. But

if we play the depreciation game, I have

to wind up with the piece we did earlier

this year, and that is the would you

rather piece because at 100 grand, you

could do a used Ferrari. We had a 360

with a manual swap, my Amir new, or a

really nice firstg Acura NSX. And if

we're talking fun,

>> that's a good

>> that is a car that's not going to blow

anybody away with badge or usability,

even though it's very good, or

perception or anything like that other

than just you're behind the wheel going,

"It's not that powerful. Man, this is

good.

>> Mhm.

>> It's just great." At 100 grand, $100,000

gets you a really nice NSX. They used to

be 50. We all should have bought them,

but apparently somebody did cuz now

they're all hundreds. So I'm stopping

there with $100,000 and you could do

Ferrari used.

>> Emira new NSX used. That's on this exact

same channel, a would you rather piece

where we did all three.

>> You got me thinking about the Ferrari.

>> I know. I really like really liked that.

You liked it a lot.

>> That was a lot of fun.

>> It was very fun. That's the thing. The

reason I brought up all three.

>> Can I change my answer? Well, because it

is a question about what do you as a

driver consider fun?

>> Yeah.

>> You know, what is the stuff that

connects with you? And that was the

really hard part of that would you

rather piece is because there were great

things about the 360, the Amir, and the

NSX. And it really came down to what are

the the the potential pain points you're

willing to tolerate

>> and the things that speak to you as a

driver. What I'm noticing about both our

lists, though, is the top end, the upper

echelon of price points. Both of us

chose mid-enine cars and that is a

throughine.

>> Yeah.

>> Doesn't matter what the price is, we're

all gunning for the midenine kind of

feel because that recipe alone denotes

fun. That just that's the starting place

to create more fun.

>> True. And also I think when you're

starting to get to the higher price

points, stuff starts to also get a lot

heavier. And a lot of the stuff that

stays anywhere close to 3,000 lb, I

mean, again, lightweight is below 3,000,

but anything close to 3,000 lb in a

modern time when most cars are 3500 and

up is probably midine.

>> Well, here's the deal. With the price of

fun piece that we did, it proved that

well, I'm susceptible to McLarens and

high-end luxury cars, but still,

>> I wonder about this list stacking up. If

we went further from here and the next

jump would be 250,

>> this entire list from both of us

>> as we move higher in the price points up

to say a million.

>> Sure. Sure.

>> Would those be more fun than any of the

cars that we named in both of our lists

all the way down to the lowest price

point?

>> Well, this I mean

>> that's a hard sell for me and I think

the answer is no.

>> I I I don't think that that is the

>> 250. Yeah,

>> we're talking Porsches and GT3s and

>> Yeah, for sure.

>> Amazing.

>> Yes,

>> fun at higher speeds. The the fun is

coming at you a lot faster.

>> I guess

>> we are closing in on fun quite rapidly

at this point.

>> Yeah, I have uh I have a real soft spot

for the new Ferrari Amalfi.

>> I know you do. I know you do.

>> Oh, that car is just pretty. I cannot

wait to see one on the road, see one in

person, drive it, maybe own one one day.

I'm I'm completely dreaming, but

>> that's just return to sexy cars. I agree

with you. The other thing you're

touching on and I want to I want us to I

mean we we pioneered doing the price of

fun piece. I'd like to do it again with

different cars. It's something you and I

have talked about and hopefully we will.

We could use these lists as a starting

point.

>> But I but I also wonder at once you

start to get these really expensive

cars, I wonder if the fund definition is

starting to change. And the point I'm

making here is

>> as we talked about in that original

price and fun if if we do it again, it's

something we'll talk about again

if if you're what you're defining fun is

I as a driver amying

being in in a corner right now. I do

think price is irrelevant. I think it's

utterly irrelevant because as we talked

about with these lists, you can enjoy

that corner on a perfect day in the

$5,000 car. And I don't really think

you're enjoying the actual midc corner

dynamic fun moment more in a $500,000

car. The difference becomes

>> the wonder factor of the higher price,

the engineering awareness of the higher

price, the badge perception, the feel of

the interior, how comfort comfortable

are you beyond the fun because race

cars,

>> all of that's thrown out.

>> In fact, fun's even thrown out. It's

just did I go faster than last time?

That is where the fun lies. Well, I I

would say the faster and more severe a

race car is, you're not having that much

fun. It's just it's really hard on your

body.

>> It's a bit of survival going on.

>> Not a lot of fun. But that's interesting

because to your point, at the price

levels, anything above 100K, we've been

told by people who drive very high-end

cars on the street, and we would have to

start introducing the negative column

that chips away at the fun, like people

who try to follow you and do dangerous

maneuvers to try to follow you and a

McLaren Senna. We've heard from people

who are driving a Senna

>> and people are doing dangerous, stupid

stuff just to get a photo of the car and

kind of making you feel uncomfortable

and frankly unsafe.

>> That actually chips away at the fun that

you think you're going to have driving a

Pagani utopia.

>> Is that utopia by everybody trying to

cut you off and doing dangerous traffic

maneuvers just so they can see it and

get a photo? M

>> well maybe that's why all those cars are

driven 20 mph across grass and golf

courses to just be shown and put on a

trailer and never driven because the fun

is the detraction from driving it on the

street and going out and finding that

would we have to introduce some sort of

leaderboard where yes fun and here's the

points and then well because of the look

and the dangerous traffic maneuvers part

of it do we have to introduce that the

higher we go because at 100,000 and

under I don't think any of that really

matters. matters. Well, but and also the

the lower you go on the price board, the

less it matters, too. Because I'll give

you a perfect example back to to the

list that I had. The $10,000 86, I

promise you, if you are an owner of that

and you like driving fun, you are going

to find every possible opportunity to

drift that car.

>> Yes. Every opportunity you can to get it

like dangerously sideways, you are going

to attempt it. And when you go to the

grocery store or the drive-thru or

whatever, you're going to take whichever

parking space. I'll take that one. That

one's fine between the two vans where I

can barely get my doors open. It's open.

That's fine. It'll take it. Now, jump

forward

>> to some really expensive car. You're

going to think about your drifting and

you're going to park it near nobody. And

these are all factors. It's fascinating

how all of this is is is a reality of

all of this. I thought of one other bit

of news we should touch on before we

move on too far.

>> Okay. And that is Max and the ring.

>> Okay. All right. All right.

>> So, you I'm sure you've seen it's been

everywhere. Maxappen.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't have a photo because we've all

seen photos. Max firstappen a little

while back with under a pseudonym. We

talked about on this podcast. He did his

first laps ever on the ring in an actual

car versus in the sim. And he did

really, really well. And they made

exceptions to give him a license because

why wouldn't he give him a license? They

made exceptions. They gave him the

license. He just ran his first NLS,

which is the Nurburgring based series in

the GT3 class.

>> He ran in the Ferrari that is driven on

his race team.

>> He ran in that Ferrari

>> and he threw down. He almost got pole.

The reason he didn't get poll was

traffic.

He had two of the fastest sectors ever.

He just didn't have the fastest sector

in one of the sectors, so he didn't get

poll. Uh he also went out earlier

apparently than the competition. And

then he went on to win it, okay, with

his co-driver.

I have two major thoughts here that I

find fascinating besides the fact that

clearly this guy is the Terminator. He's

just he's a machine that knows how to

drive and he is crazy fast and

everything.

>> Yes.

>> But I have two other thoughts. One of

them is, and actually my wife brought

this up because if you watch a Tom Cruz

movie and he does all his own stunts or

it pick your action star, okay, a lot of

actors have got dangerous pastimes that

they do for fun. And what happens with

these actors is when they are signed on

to a movie, they have to sign a clause.

This happens with a lot of sports folks

as well. You have to sign a clause of

I'm not going to do these dangerous

things over the course of my contract

that you're paying me for so I don't get

injured skydiving when you need me to be

on the soccer field next week. I'm not

going to do any of that stuff during the

season.

>> Stuff still happens. You still have hear

about oh you're riding your motorcycle

in traffic and you got

>> Exactly. But generally you're supposed

to sign and many many sports people and

many actors etc. people that that lots

of money is counting on have to sign

these clauses. They're not going to do

this during the season.

Well, Max just went out during the

middle of the current like we're

currently F1. He did this last weekend

because it happened to be between two F1

races when there wasn't a race. We

couldn't be more mid-season. He is

currently competing to be world champion

again.

>> Yes,

>> the guy's busy on the thing you pay him

for. And yet, he got an exception to go

run this. And I forget which person it

was. I think it was George Russell, but

one of the other F1 drivers made the

comment where they said, "It's cool that

he was allowed to do that." There's

subtext in that sentence.

>> He made a comment about how it would be

cool if all of us could do it. You know,

this was a long time coming and Max has

said, "This is important to me."

>> So, he got an exception to go run at the

ring. What if he'd been injured?

>> Yeah.

>> What if by Let's be honest. Let's say by

no fault of his own, the ring's a

dangerous place. He's racing with It's

like Lama. He's racing with lots of

different classes of speed.

>> Racing. Yeah. Completely.

>> You come around a corner and here is the

car in the slowest class parked

sideways.

>> Yeah.

>> You've got few options. Okay. So, what

if he'd gotten injured? What if

something had gone wrong here? I am

amazed he got the exception. That's the

first point I want to make. The second

point I want to make is his co-driver

and the guy that finished second was Yan

Marbor, whatever the guy's name is. That

was the guy that was the inspiration for

the Gran Turismo movie.

>> Oh, yeah. Max's co-driver and the guy

that came in the second place car both

came out of sim. So glad you brought

that up because I have talked about sim

as a personal choice and it doesn't

necessarily make you a good driver and

all of that is out the window. I can no

longer say even though

>> I wondered what you say about I know

it's setup

>> and it kind of depends on how much money

you spend on your sim setup. It really

kind of does come down to

>> what the inputs are and that just kind

of depends on how good your wheel is and

your setup is.

>> But there's some sim games that I found

and the wheel that I'm using, I know the

car will turn in. I I've been there on

track in the same car and I I know it

turns in and suddenly I'm hitting the

wall and through the grass and the

brakes felt like wood and sure it didn't

break properly and I'm I'm doing the

same inputs that I would on track and it

didn't do it virtually.

>> Mhm. That has been the disconnect for me

personally. But I can no longer say

because definitively yes, sim racing

actually does lead to being a better

driver and lead to being a top class

race car driver. Full stop. Hands down.

>> I'm 100% wrong. Even though

>> I still think it depends on the setup.

>> You had a life experience that led you

to your thoughts. I get it. I' I'd like

to try continually better and better

sims because of course the sims that are

used in F1 and Indie Car and any high

performance very high class drive. Well,

yeah, there's a lot of money and I've

seen and heard of very high-end sim rigs

and we've,

>> you know, we've been close to them.

We've experienced them a little bit. I'd

like, you know, some more time on those.

But Chris Lam was Lim was uh Max's

co-driver and Maxar came from scouted

him from sim

>> from sim from not being on the

racetrack. And Max had never driven the

ring until he did it this year.

>> Yeah.

>> He had only driven it virtually and then

got in the car and set some of the

fastest laps the ring has ever seen.

Yep. And and Max has been in trouble

with Red Bull before for showing up at

races tired because he was winning some

sort of sim race overnight.

>> Well, we've seen F1 drivers Alonzo

compete in Indie Car. We've seen other

F1 drivers compete in LA. So, it does

happen. But I'm thinking to myself now,

well,

>> why isn't every F1 driver out there

doing these other races?

>> This is a contract exception

>> and competing. What's the exception for

Max? simply he wanted to

>> I I I He has a He and his dad both have

wielded a ton of power at Red Bull. Yes.

>> And he's been very successful and he

clearly is a put him in a car, he goes

fast and he sims all the time.

>> Incredible.

>> This is Max strikes me as an interesting

guy. Look, I don't know him at all. I've

never met him. It all I have is public

perception of him.

>> I also think he's gotten more

interesting since he's become a father.

>> I think that has shifted his demeanor

with others a little bit. I'm wrong, but

he is clearly a robot designed to drive

and you put him in whatever. Kind of

like Sebastian Loe, he's just fast. It

doesn't matter the car situation, what

he's just fast and he gets up to speed

very, very quickly. And Sim, I think, is

the only opportunity we have.

>> And Yan Marbor, sorry, I'm getting his

last name wrong. He's the best example

of leveling the playing field of talent

versus money

>> because you can come out of a less than

ideal sim rig and still spend tons less

than just a season of carting and get

very very good. Now the thing I wonder

about and clearly these guys are jumping

past it is the jump of no consequence to

all the consequences. You've been

driving, driving, driving, driving

driving driving, driving driving, reset,

reset, reset, reset, reset. And now you

jump in the car and all of the

consequences are real.

And I think that's fascinating because

at least when you came up through carts

and that kind of stuff, there's an

awareness of consequence.

>> But if you jump from sim to car, you

went from zero consequence to I'll have

it all, please.

>> I suppose the only consequence is that

because in sim, you didn't get the lap

time you were going for. You didn't get

what you were doing. And so you know not

to do that. And so in real life you will

know

>> I won't get the lap time so don't do

that. Crashing actually is not part of

your

>> thought process. It's more like well I I

don't have a reset button and I won't

get the lap time that I'm going for.

>> Yeah. Maybe that's it. I I hope it's a

little bit more than that. But now does

this make

>> carding and F1 drivers coming up through

the ranks of carding when you're two

years old and then you move to F4 and

then three and you come up through the

ranks. Does this mean we're going to

finally see an actual F1 driver who

started in sim as a youngster and then

>> I think we're coming

>> went straight to F1, maybe F2 because I

don't think it's going to come straight.

You still want to see your talent and

you still have to prove yourself on a

real racetrack with other racers,

>> but are we going to see somebody come

directly out of sim and right into a

formula?

>> I mean, this is this is what you know,

Yan did and others. I think it's clear

you can jump from sim straight into the

GT class stuff. That clearly is the case

and I think some of those folks are

going to jump beyond. I like the

opportunity this theoretically creates

that everybody we're watching. It's true

of the current F1 lineup and there's a

lot of interesting guys in there, but a

lot of them are like, "Well, I grew up

in Monaco." Of course you did.

>> But now it's going to be I grew up

gaming, so of course you're an F1

driver.

>> But I grew up I grew up not coming from

money, not coming from privilege, and

now I've just proved myself to be really

good. That part of it fascinates me and

I love that Max is promoting that.

>> But what kind of contract exemption did

he get?

>> Incredible.

>> Cuz he's driving F1 this next weekend.

It's craziness.

>> Incredible. Yes, my respect has

definitely grown, especially after

watching that Mustang GTD review with

him and Chris Harris

>> because he was somewhat like a human.

>> Well, I hate to say it, but he also just

jumped in and was turning hot laps and

making the Mustang do what he wants.

He's used to lightweight race cars. This

is one of the heaviest cars, high-end

sports cars, and he's still just kind of

making it

>> do what he wants.

>> He is clearly just let me drive. Get on

the way and we need to.

>> All right. So, if you've got a topic

Tuesday and you're interested in price

points or you want us to discuss

anything, write to us

[email protected]

for all your topic Tuesdays. We'd love

to hear your questions.

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cars one search.

So we have done if you've been following

along more than a thousand podcasts.

This is like 2015 or something. We've

done a lot of podcasts. We've been doing

this for more than a decade and we

thoroughly enjoy it. We love that you

guys listen and now that you watch and

we appreciate it. And I I'm putting that

in perspective to say that a first has

happened this week. Something that's

never happened in a decade and more than

a thousand podcasts. We received

I'm look I'm showing paper to the

audience. You can hear it crinkling in

the mic. We received a handwritten card

debate.

First off, the handwriting is excellent.

I say that because my handwriting is

horrific, which is why I type

everything.

>> Todd went to the doctor school of

handwriting.

>> My handwriting is very, very bad. and my

son has inherited it and I'm very very

sorry for him because he's going to have

to type everything. But this is an

actually well-written handwritten

letter version of a car debate. And I

will acknowledge Mark also sent it in

digitally, but he says here in the

postcript he just thought a handwritten

letter would be fun.

So Mark, kudos to you and your wife

Tamara because you guys have just sent

in the first ever handwritten card

debate. By the way, it doesn't guarantee

you'll get your card debate covered, but

it was I'd open up the the PO box was

like, what on earth is this now? I What

year is this? It was very cool in the

digital age. Very cool. Nice to get

that. So, well, Mark, thank you for

writing. Mark and his wife Tamara were

talking about the other day about their

retirement plans.

They're considering selling their house,

buying a vehicle, and just living in it

while they drive all over the country,

all over the US.

>> However, Mark recently discovered fun,

lightweight vehicles.

>> In his life, early in life, he started

driving a Chevy Cavalere wagon. 1984, he

thought. Next was a 1992 Cutless Cala,

then a 69 Chevy Custom Deluxe 10, then a

2001 GMC Sierra pickup truck, then

another 2014 GMCA Sierra pickup truck.

And he needed these trucks for the work.

And after that, he had a 2003 Accord

hybrid, which was a piece of junk

because the hybrid part didn't really

work, but somehow it was still reliable

because it was a Honda.

>> Because Honda Accords run in spite of

you, not because of you. By the way, I

don't know the last time we've said 1992

Cutless Klay.

>> It's been a minute. It's been a long

time. I I actually forgot about those

words. Went in like in order.

>> Exactly.

>> And there it is. Anyway, yeah.

>> Next up was a 2011 Accord EXL. Great

car, very dependable, had some power.

Then another 2024 Accord Sport L Hybrid.

Fantastic car.

>> But after the 2025 Accord, he kept

getting this nagging feeling he should

get his Civic.

>> So then he traded the hybrid for a 2025

Civic SI.

>> Cool.

>> He loves the car so much he washes it

every Friday. I hope with Go's Garage

Products.

>> Let's hope so. He changes his own oil

and he finds any excuse to drive it. Now

Mark and Tamara are in the Dallas area

and there's no fun roads there.

>> There's the You just have the spaghetti

overpasses. That's it. You just have the

weird crazy sixstory high practically.

Yes. That's about all you can do.

>> Anyway,

>> so he takes lots of trips across his

neighborhood looking for any little road

to enjoy the handling.

>> So back to the reason that he's writing

>> if they retire and choose the road life.

Yes.

>> It's like van life with cars.

>> That's exactly what he's trying to do.

>> It's like van life, but only

>> he's trying to do van life with

something small and lightweight. Keep in

mind, the Civic SI weighs just around

3,000 lbs. Just barely under in some

trims. So, this is the other end of the

spectrum from van life and from the

stuff he's owned. That is a genuinely

light car in the model.

>> Van life with light cars.

>> Yes, I know what

>> there's additives in the written

version, by the way, that I have to add

to. There's a couple little things in

here was like, what on earth? Yeah.

Anyway.

>> Okay. Okay. So, what vehicle could they

get that can hold their life, meaning

all their stuff,

>> and also be fun to drive? Because

there's plenty of vans we can name. It

seems like everybody in Park City has an

Earth ROR or some sort of van. I keep

thinking, was I sick the day they were

handing those out? Because I see vans.

People just drive them around to go get

groceries.

>> Yes, they do. Because they haven't

driven it. They drive their enormous

This could have survived the apocalypse

van.

>> They just park them like from home to

the store like 5 miles or less. That is

a Park City thing for sure. He wants to

enjoy handling.

>> He wants fun, lightweight cars for van

life. Mark told his wife, "Maybe an

Integra Type S. Put the seats down and

throw an air mattress down and maybe fit

the rest of their stuff around it."

>> That's like one t-shirt, one pair of

pants, your toothbrush, and your shoes.

>> Let Let me add to this. He says in the

written version, the handwritten

version, the he the the hypothetical car

here would need to accommodate driving,

sleeping, and clothes, not bathroom or

cooking. The thinking is fine

>> that they would use their gym

membership, which apparently must be a

national chain cuz they're talking about

driving all over. Their gym membership

to shower and they would eat out every

meal. This is the pitch. It is literally

the car to drive and sleep in. that is

trying to do van life with a car. The

gym shower thing is good. Eating out

every meal, you can do that.

>> Mhm.

>> That's interesting because I I didn't go

too big, but I I started kind of large

because you're thinking, well, you got

to have space for some stuff. You want

some creature comforts. It can't just

be, you know, an air mattress. Well,

maybe it can be. I'm not sure. Well, I

started here. Okay. with an SUV. One of

my faves. It is the Mercedes GLE 63S.

>> It's very good to drive.

>> Loads of power. Surprising amount of

space in the back. Plenty of space for

your stuff. I'm glad they acknowledged.

>> Yeah, take your dot kit into the gym.

Take your towel. Do laundry at the

laundromat. Minimum amount of stuff.

>> Also, you can't buy a whole bunch of

stuff while you're out because it's

going to accumulate. You don't have

anywhere to put it. Very true. So, this

has loads of power. Fun to drive. Great

to live in. Make sure you carry a lot of

air fresheners or the stinky be gone

because if you're living out of your

car, it's going to smell like feet.

>> Yeah. Yes. Or worse. Yes. Uh-huh.

>> This is where I started also and that is

a cayenne. Obviously, it's a

>> sure. Put the mattress there. Mattress

in the back.

>> What I don't want to happen, Mark and

Tamara.

You know when you see those cars every

so often parked on the side of the road

and it's full of stuff and maybe an

animal and it's like above the windows

above the shoulder line and and the

stuff fills the window and the only

space to sit in the car is the driver's

seat and there's so much gnarly crap in

the car. I I don't want you to go down

that road. I don't want you're going to

have to be very fidious with your

cleanliness.

>> What you're describing

>> overly clean. What you're describing is

what the sentence, I'm living in my car,

meant before Instagram. All van life has

done is made, I'm living in my car,

aspirational. Prior to Instagram, if

anyone said to you, I am living in my

car, you went, oh, I'm sorry.

>> Yes. Or sorry, I'm going to go back.

Chris Farley and his famous joke, I live

in a van down by the river. This was not

a positive thing. And now it's van life.

Yo, now it's this thing we aspire to.

>> Yeah,

>> living in your car was not something to

aspire to until very recently regarding

Instagram van life. I didn't go all the

way to recommending a van,

but Mark and Tamara, I think you're

serious about this. I I really truly

think you're considering it. And I do

want you to have something fun. And it

can't be a giant SUV. Can't be a

Suburban or a pickup or something with a

giant tent. I mean, maybe the Pontiac

Aztec was built for you like 20 years

ago.

>> Who knew? We need an Aztec.

>> Thought of that.

>> No one's ever said, "I need an Aztec."

But there it is. Moving on.

>> Pontiac was 25 years old. They were

>> They were They were early. Truly, they

were because they were before the SUV

craze. If that had come out during the

SUV like explosion, it might have

survived.

>> Pontiac might have survived in the

Instagram era. Mhm.

>> Sadly, it didn't. I'm going to go to

rooftop tent era.

>> Ooh, look at you.

>> Because I want something the car that

you have. I mean, if you're going to

sell your house, we can probably afford

something. You didn't give a budget

anywhere in the letter or or your email.

So, what that means is

>> a 911 with a rooftop tent because I

think you're going to want more space

than just the back hatch area with an

air mattress. I think that's going to

get old after about 14 minutes.

>> Mhm. I think that you're going to want

some more space and I am showing you the

probably the most glamorous shot I can.

But in 2022, Porsche came out with a

line of rooftop tents through their tech

equipment program

>> and offered this as a actual Porsche

skew number

>> to

>> do just this. Now, I think what they

were intending is maybe a weekend. Can

you stretch this to a year or longer?

I'm not sure. So 911, that's the that's

the dream. That's the glamour shot.

>> And it is a very nice photo. It is the

the the perfect version of this life.

Look, you've got plenty of space up top.

The 911 can theoretically go anywhere.

And then I thought, well, if we're

getting a 911 and we're selling our

house, could you Oh, here's another

lovely glamour shot. You see the the

tent is Porsche branded.

>> Of course it is.

>> This is an actual product from Porsche

that you can buy. And since we're now

past the initial

craze of it, I guess you could probably

find them a little bit more easily for

sale. Talk to your local dealer. Talk to

your P parts counter at your Porsche

dealer. But this is the idealic setting.

You're out there. You've rolled the

Porsche off-rid here and you've got the

rooftop tent and looks something is

cooking on the habachi back there. And

>> they're smiling at each other. Yes.

Still smiling at each other.

>> I have many things to say about this.

Yes.

>> And one more glamour shot. That's more

the hard top rooftop tent, but I mean

the idyllic setting.

>> Okay, so I thought, you know, AI could

help us out.

>> Here's an AI version of a 911 with a

motor home on the back. Be fun to drive.

>> Big lifted AI

>> 911.

>> Thank goodness for AI to come through.

And

>> it looks like monster trucks from the

80s

>> with a 911 body and a rooftop.

>> Does it not look like Tonka invented

something? It looks like somebody had uh

too much of something and then decided

to sit down at a computer. Yeah.

>> So, there you go. But I was going to say

if we're talking 911s and something go

anywhere, do anything. What about a D

car? I found you one. This one's

actually for sale on bluechipfleet.com

for 395,000 or 365,000. I can't I can't

remember which. But the price difference

for a GR86 doesn't matter if we're

already spending that money and you sold

a house for who cares. Get yourself a D

car 911. I think this would be a lot of

fun. Rooftop tent on this bad boy.

>> Would go anywhere. Yes,

>> you would get the looks. You could go

anywhere. Yeah. I mean, I think you

could make this work. It's going to take

some

gumption. You're going to have to

>> really get through this.

>> Yeah.

>> But,

>> okay,

>> my last choice for you. If we're going

to go that far,

>> I thought about the TYON. The TYON Sport

Turismo and its brother, the Panamera

Sport Turismo.

>> I agree with both of those. also shown

with the roof box up here. And I'm also

showing you the most idealic glamour

shot rooftop camping on your TYON Sport

Turismo out in the wilderness. Look, the

people are still smiling.

>> Everybody's smiling. Everybody's

perfect. All the puffy jackets are

awesome. Everything is great.

>> A cup of hot something.

>> It just rained, but not so much that

we're overwhelmed by the fact that

everything's wet. It's just like a mist.

It's like a mist of rain.

>> Just the misty. More of the dew is still

in everything. probably has a ukulele or

a guitar in that rooftop tent.

>> Sure. The fire pit is

>> the fire pit is on the just turn around

in the photo. There's the fire pit.

>> There you go. But it is a thing. Look,

all the Porsches, the 911s, the

Panameas, the TYON Sport Turismos. The

Sport Turismo, I think, was built for

you because if you decide to not pitch

the tent, you've still got the Turismo

back in. You've still got that wagon

part and it's big enough to carry your

toothbrush and rooftop tent life. Look,

everybody's doing it. Here is a sunset

over LA.

It's a thing.

>> Porsche just it though

>> came out with the product in 2022. So,

you're just slightly behind but ready to

go 911 first. But I do think if you're

serious,

I think you could make a Panamera Sport

Turismo or a TYON Sport Turismo actually

work. I I do like where you landed. I I

have to warn all of you, my also my

co-host included. Rant incoming, but uh

I do think that the Panamera is a is a

good argument here and I have to go with

you on that. I'm going to start uh Mark

Tam and Tamara, I'm going to start right

here with the

>> because you are a Honda person. You've

had multiple Honda Accords. Now you have

the the Civic SI that you love. And so

you said, "What about the Integra Type

S?" I'm starting right here with the

Integra Type S. And my short answer is

yes. Sure. Excellent hatchback. I I How

How big are you as people? Okay, that's

something we don't know because I don't

know you. Yes, you could probably lay

the seats down. You could sleep in this.

Look, I've known people that have slept

in Miatas. They were doing a road trip.

They had no money. They slept in Miatas.

You could sleep in sold your house and

you're sleeping.

>> Exactly. Right. So, the Integra Type S

would work. I'm glad you went to

Panamera because the big point I wanted

to make for you guys is just wagons. I'm

showing a fairly recent sold in the US

version of a 3 series wagon in the

mountains parked in a nice little

parking lot. This is a genuinely

goodsized wagon. And in fact, I would

argue that a good wagon potentially has

more horizontal space for a bed than

most 5seat SUVs. Seven seaters, it's

game over, but you're not driving. We're

trying to get driving fun.

>> Exactly. Right. Yes.

>> So, I think wagons, four-door wagons

give you the length that you need. And

frankly, top gygeeared this forever ago.

Jeremy had an old 5 series. Uh James had

a a Volvo. Richard had a a WRX and they

went through I forget where it was, but

I think they were looking for the Nile

and they were all sleeping in their cars

the entire episode. I mean, this has

been done. This is what we're talking

about.

>> They slept in their cars for an episode.

>> Yes, they did. Yes, they did. This This

is where I'm actually wanting to go,

okay? Because van life, I'm going to go

into the Instagram era of van life, and

I'm sure I'm going to lose some of you.

I'll probably get a nasty letter, but

that's fine. I'm going to actually back

this up with things that I have seen,

heard, experienced.

>> Van life is just trying to be the mobile

version of camping.

>> Yeah,

>> it really is what you're trying to be.

What you're looking for, and I'm showing

a photo of a tent in the middle of

nowhere, perfectly lit inside, fantastic

mountains in the background. You've all

you can picture the scene even if you

can't see it.

>> Beautiful for all of us to look at that.

>> I have done a a good amount earlier in

my life. I did a good amount of solo

backpacking, hiking, and camping. Yeah.

And it was transformative. I truly loved

it. Okay, it is really cool to get out

somewhere where you're not going to see

people. You forget about your phone.

What's very bizarre, I'm sure it

experienced everybody, but definitely

happened to me. It was like my brain was

cleansing itself.

Lyrics of songs I never liked that

apparently I knew every word of would

just like download through my brain to

be like, "Really? I know all the lyrics

to that. Why? Why do I know that?" I

would write. I would sit out for a

couple of days by myself. It was

amazing. Camping in the middle of

nowhere is wonderful.

Van life is trying to be that, but

you're moving. And I'm going to go into

the Instagram era now. We opened up the

back of the van. We're looking at the

surf.

>> You and me and the dog.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> We're just staring out at the perfect

mountains. My computer's off to the side

because I just worked remotely and I

made us all this money. Sure you did.

That happened.

>> Look, honey. We're on the edge of the

Grand Canyon.

>> Oh, that looks awesome.

>> We're standing on the top of our

purpose-built van and we're pointing

down into the Grand Canyon.

>> Those are the ones that everybody in

Park City has. They're driving all over

town.

>> Big Sprinter vans, the Sprinter Mercedes

vans that are, by the way, well over six

figures for a good one,

>> but they sold their house.

>> And then we have the I'm up above the

mountains, above the clouds, looking out

over the Pacific Ocean, standing on top

of my van. I have my hammock out. These

are the idealic. This is van life in

images. This is when it went from van

down the river to don't you really want

to do this? And you guys are living in

Dallas. And look, my wife grew up in

Dallas. I grew up in Houston. You're

living in the exact opposite from this

world. And I know what's happened. And

I'm not coming down on you. I just want

to hit this Instagram right in the face.

Okay. This is a thing where we all look

at this and go, "Oh,

I'm in Dallas and I could be there.

>> If only." And we've all seen, bumped

into, heard the van stories, which was,

you know, we woke up this morning on a

perfect idyllic beach and there was

nobody around and we made coffee naked

and then we made love and then we we had

this amazing walk across a beach and

nobody was there and we got in the van

and the van worked perfectly and we

drove to this next idyllic location.

We'll have more photos for you tomorrow.

>> This is the perception.

>> It is not the reality. It's not even

close to the reality. PE people

sometimes come to us frustrated because

we bother to actually produce our

videos. They want it to be raw and then

they look at Instagram photos like this

where I'm like everything about your

life is not that photo and the photo

shows I want to do that.

I have a buddy who has one of these

Sprinter vans. He's had it for years. He

bought it used. He spent a lot of money

on it. It is as nice as you can get. He

has been unable to take a single trip

without something breaking.

Not a single trip. And it's not like he

goes out for months. He goes out for a

week at a time

>> and then he goes back to his life for a

few months and goes out for a week at a

time. This is a person who has the money

to no expense spare this vehicle. Mhm.

>> Something breaks every time he goes out.

Okay. And if you actually look into any

of the because I've done it, look into

any of these van life blogs, they do

have the well, there are downsides and

that is, you know, you're going to have

to you have to dump the chemical toilet.

You have to do that. Tell us how the

inside of that van smells. Guess what?

The most expensive van on the planet

still smells like a t chemical toilet. I

have never been in any RV or or

expensive van ever. I've ranted with

this, but Paul Why Paul's laughing so

much. They all smell like chemical

toilet. Setting you up for this. Yes,

you are. Just here you go.

>> So, I am going somewhere with this. This

is an idealic idea. This is a honey,

we're going to sell the house. We're

going to travel. I am going to give you

the counterpoint. And I got into this

discussion/argument with a couple of my

buddies. One is the one that owns this

van,

>> okay?

>> And they were all like, "Which one would

you get? Which one would you get?" We

were having a round table and I said,

"None of the above."

>> And I said, "Give me the budget." And

the budget was high. Okay. It was like

$200,000. And I was like, I'm going to

buy

>> Yeah.

>> a really nice $100,000 GT car

>> and everywhere you guys stop, I'm going

to get a hotel. I'm going to get a nice

hotel. Not even a hu super super nice

just like decent hotel. All right. Like

>> or any hotel.

>> One step above like I could maybe stay

there like one step above that. And I

could go for as long as you guys can go.

And I'm staying in a hotel

>> with a shower and I don't have to worry

about where everything goes. And all I

have to bring is my bag and my clothes

and a toothbrush. You guys are already

talking about buying all your meals.

You're talking about showering at the

gym, which by the way doesn't go away

with van life. These folks still shower

in public bathrooms. Even if they have a

shower, they still have to empty the

chemical toilet and they are, "Oh, this

is a really nice bathroom at my gym."

That grows old quick.

I don't think you guys are going to like

this as much as you think you are. And

so my pitch for you is this.

>> Buy a GT car you're going to like.

>> Go to our GT cars episode. Spend 50 to

100 grand on a GT car you're going to

like and set out for 6 months. Sit down

with the map. Set out for six months.

Six months is a long time. Maybe it

needs to be three.

>> Mhm.

>> But set out with a map and go, where are

the places we want to go?

>> And then connect those places with great

roads. Because what I don't want you to

do, and this happens all the time in van

life. We see it. We take all of our

trips. I know I'm ranting.

>> We are on an amazing road and we all get

stuck behind van life.

>> Trudge, trudge, trudge, trudge, trudge,

trudge. It's the nicest van ever and it

is trudging because it has to. We were

not meant to be snails, folks. We were

not meant to be people carrying our

house with us. That's why we built

houses. Once we stop being nomadic

people, the house sits at a place. We go

away. We come back to the house. That's

why the houses got nice. Okay? You've

lived in a nice house in Dallas. I know

Dallas houses. They're nice.

>> So, buy yourself a decent car with

enough space for you to take. You and

your wife are going to take enough bags

to feel comfortable. You could go out to

a nice dinner because you have those

clothes. You could do drive-thru because

you have those clothes. The other thing

I'm going to suggest to you is buy a

tent and tenting stuff. Because if you

really want to be in the middle of

nowhere, park your GT car and hike in a

mile or two and camp. And then guess

what you get to do? Retreat. Go to a

hotel. Get cleaned up in two days.

>> Yeah.

>> Six months. Plan your route. Pick all

the things you really really want to

see. pick all the fun squiggles between

it. It might only be three months and

try this out because I think even the

struggles of we're still traveling,

we're still in a different hotel than we

were last night, we're still eating food

that we bought out,

>> that might get wearing.

I don't think van life is even 20% what

we're being shown.

>> I think

>> I think it's 10% what we're being shown.

I think you're on to something here

because I think you're serious, Mark and

Tam. I I think you're truly serious. But

Todd's got a great Todd's got a great

point here. You need to do a trial run

first before you put the house up for

sale and choose whatever vehicle is

going to be and you set out and that's

it. I think maybe we could offer trial

run trips, adventures, but I think even

three months is too long because on our

recent COD trip this year in 2025, we

were out for two straight weeks.

>> Two straight weeks. Yes.

>> And that got rough. I mean, we were

hotels, eating out every night. It was

awesome. Don't get me wrong, great time,

but it was

>> every minute. But two weeks was

exhausting. Now,

>> we were podcasting along the way. We did

a massive track day in the middle.

>> Filming every day.

>> Filming every day. We're on camera

nearly every day, if not every single

day.

>> Turn the camera on. We're trying to

>> talk and say cool funny things and

whatever.

>> It was wearing after two weeks.

>> True. True.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I think even a month as a trial run

would give you a really good taste of

what this is actually going to be. And I

I am with you in the camp of buy a great

car, connect it to great hotels, do

great road trips. That's why we do these

adventures. Yes, but sell the house. I

mean,

>> not even these van lifers. Well, I guess

some of them have sold their house and

this is home.

>> This is all they do. Yes.

>> Not all of them. I think they still have

the backup plan. I mean, that's why you

see the fifth wheels and the bigger and

bigger trailers.

>> True. True.

>> Yeah. Even that is for just a weekend

out.

>> So, it's not for everybody. But, you

know what? I'm not going to fully rule

it out, but I'm I'm joking, but I'm half

joking. M

>> I think yeah the rooftop tent with the

911 cool but that's like a long weekend

like woo

>> be good to get home and get a hot shower

and a hot meal. I want to I want to cook

for myself and I want

>> I want to sleep in a fulls size bed

>> where I don't like bump into the

sidewalls. Yeah. Uhhuh.

>> And I don't want to smell the inside of

my car anymore and I I'm excited about

that. I want to smell fresh air and I

want to stand out on the deck and look

at the view and whatever. You know what

I mean?

>> So if you're serious, I think you've

gotten some valid options. But I also

think there's some there's some tough

love in here, too. There's some some

reality checks that need to happen. I

wish I had a photo, but I think back on

this one couple we saw a lot. And it was

one of the first times you and I ever

went to Beartooth Pass. We were standing

at the top of one of the first overlooks

of Beartooth Pass. It's Chief Joseph

Highway, Beartooth Pass doing the

eastern edge of uh Yellowstone Park. We

just did a trip with people and it was

it's one of honestly my favorite drives

in the world. I love it. I haven't even

driven the whole world, but I still

think it's going to remain top five for

me no matter what we do. It's such a

great drive. And we were at this big

overlook. We were filming, of course,

and it was a stream of retired folks in

RVs,

>> big ones,

>> big old RVs. And they're trudging up

because it's it's like elevation to get

up there, trudging up, barely making it,

stopping, getting out, little dog gets

out. The whole thing, the whole RV

picture was happening over and over and

over and over and over. And then we saw

this couple pull in. And at first we

both were like, "What?" And then the

longer we looked, we were like, "Wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait. You've done it

right."

>> It was a man and wife, retired. Same age

as everybody. I have You have to

understand this is the exact peers of

everybody else we've been seeing. Okay?

The exact peers, man, retired, pulled in

in a blue Z4 BMW, not unlike the one I

owned for a bit,

>> and they were pulling a paint matched

motorcycle trailer off the trailer

hitch. Like the motorcycle trailers you

see for like a guy with a Gold Wing.

Yeah. Okay. So, they're goodiz trailers.

They look huge for a bike, but they're

smaller than a car. But let's be honest,

that's more than doubling their trunk

sized.

>> Yeah.

>> They they were doing the same RV trip as

all the RV folks, but they weren't

sleeping in that car. You know, they

were getting a hotel and they had twice

as much storage space as they would for

a car, which was probably plenty. And I

remember thinking after my initial Mike

moment of what on earth is going on

there, I was like, "Wait, wait, wait.

They're my hero. They've done it right

because the Z4 is going to be very fun

to drive and be in. And it's

convertible. You can take the top down

and you still have lots of stuff. There

are ways to do this, but I think it all

comes back around to my buddies will be

in their RVs and I will meet them for

any dinner they would like. I'll sit

around the campfire with them. It's

fine. And then I will take my Aston

Martin back to the hotel. That's what I

am doing. That's my plan.

>> So clearly the choice is for you, Mark

and Tamara, to buy a Z4 with a small

motorcycle trailer pulling it with a

tent in it cuz you know they probably

had a tent backup in it

>> probably in case they couldn't get a

hotel. I'm sure they had that as the

backup totally.

>> So that is your choice. I'm going to see

if I can find that photo and we will uh

I I highly recommend the Z4 tent pulling

a small motorcycle

>> who knew

>> trailer. But thank you for writing. If

you have questions, comments, thoughts,

we'd love to hear from you.

Everydaydriver [email protected]. Topic

Tuesday's car conclusions, car debates.

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>> For our second debate, Art B writes to

us because he's about to commit a felony

before he upshifts to second in his

current car.

>> Okay. All right. Yep.

>> Art, thank you for writing. And he's

been a longtime subscriber to the

YouTube channel. He saw the cheap sports

cars episode where we compared the C4

Corvette, Boxster, and 370Z. And so he's

he's loved the realworld sort of life

that we have experienced with these

cars.

>> Thank you. That's great. really

appreciate you writing.

>> Very cool.

>> Art's love of cars began before he could

even walk.

>> He dreamed of being a car designer like

I have had the same dream. He said cars

were always his passion. In his mid-30s,

he decided the closest thing that he

could do with cars and his abilities

without turning his life life upside

down is to open a mechanic shop with his

longtime best friend and business

partner, which allowed him to surround

himself in the world of cars and get

intimate with automotive engineering,

design, and manufacturing. how cars hold

up over time, their strengths, their

weaknesses. He said he can go on for

days when he sees under the skin of the

cars, how are they designed and

manufactured. That's what I love. I I

share that love with you.

>> Fantastic.

>> Yeah.

>> At this point in his life, he can

happily say that he's been fortunate

enough to own a wide variety of cars

that include at the very beginning a

1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse 1.8.

>> That is going back.

>> Those were cool when they were cool when

they came out. You're like, what is that

thing? I'm not going to read the whole

list, but it is varied. Let's say

there's

>> extensive and varied. El Dorado 4.9

Chevy Cobalt. Oh, he had an 89 Toyota

Super Tur Toyota Super Turbo 5-speed.

>> Yep.

>> Then he Oh, look. Number seven on the

list. 91 Plymouth Laser Turbo.

>> There you go. Perfect.

>> He liked those.

>> 350 wheel horsepower on his laser.

That's craziness. There's a Mini Cooper

in here. There's a Tahoe in here. Ford

Taurus. That was a circle track racing

car. The Eagle Talon TSI. You keep

circling back there. We're keep circling

back. Multiple BMWs, Chevy Corvette,

Dodge Ram 1500. So, we're covering both

ends of the spectrum here. He had a 2000

Dodge Viper RT10, which eventually had

700 wheel horsepower. Pay attention

because that's going to come back. A

2018 Porsche Macan 2 L is currently in

the driveway, as is a 07 Chevy Corvette

Z06 with 600 wheel horsepower. His

all-time holy grail dream car was owning

that Gen 2 Viper, that year 2000 Dodge

Viper RT10. It was the literal car of

his dreams from when he was seven. He

felt like he won the jackpot when he

finally had one. He purchased it. He

loved modding it. And he said he went

down the rabbit hole only to discover

he'd made a car that had 700

horsepower at the wheels. Holy cow. He

says his description, he ended up with a

big turbo and all the necessary mods

including having to rebuild the engine.

So that means it blew up at least once.

Okay. Anyway, so there learned a lot

about fabrication, tuning parts, etc.

The hard decision was for him to let go

of it because it had he realized hard

truth and unmet expectations. The

reality is he just couldn't use this

car. He cannot enjoy it because

red line took him past 75 miles an hour

in first gear.

Holy moly. Well, now he's got the C6

Z06, which has a high compression block,

big cam, 600 wheel horsepower. He says

this is also a little bit too much on

steroids in his opinion.

>> Yep.

>> So, he's looking for his next car to

fill the void of what the Viper was for

him. He said the in the vet, he says

he's committing felonies before he's

into second. I mean, I understand you've

got that much power. We talk about it a

lot. A ton of power doesn't necessarily

equal fun. And the difficulty that he's

actually talking about here, Art's

discussing the fact that it's not that

it's not fun. It's just how often do I

use it?

>> Yes. I think it comes back to your using

all of the throttle, all the pedal to

the floor. Well, Art's looking for his

next car, and he grew up playing all the

Need for Speed games, all the European

sports cars glamorized in his mind like

993s, 996s, Ferrari 348s, all the M

cars, TVRs, Aston Martins.

>> But now that Art is older and his three

kids are fighting each other to see who

can ride with dad in the two seat sports

car. I get it.

>> He has come to terms that he maybe needs

something with four seats.

>> Yeah, you got three kids and your wife,

so there's five of you. That's It's an

issue. It's an issue for sure. Yeah. The

criteria is limited because he wants a

car that has some sort of automotive

significance, a unique design to fill

his inner designer thirst, he writes,

>> and historical background.

>> Okay.

>> He almost needs to gravitate towards a

car that is not just a normal everyday

car with some sort of trim package. He

says always brownie points for a car

with its own platform and design that

isn't shared with anything else.

Although he says that gets him into

trouble when it comes to parts and

availability for repairs and

maintenance. A manual transmission is

not necessarily a must since a lot of

the modern dual clutch transmissions are

pretty good. But for driving dynamics,

fun is definitely at the top. Doesn't

need to have a 1000 horsepower.

>> Yeah, true.

>> But enough power to move past the

traffic where he lives in Northeast

Ohio. And then comes the sentence that I

highlighted, bolded, underlined, and

italicized. Okay. Think about the cars

that Art has had. Think about the high

power stuff he's had. And then he throws

this in. The most fun he's had in a car

was an R53

Mini Cooper S. When he got to drive that

car, 2600 lb and 160 horsepower, he said

it wasn't nearly enough power, but the

short gearing, lightweight, and handling

of that car was out of this world and

reformed his opinion of front-wheel

drive.

>> That is the exact opposite of everything

he's talked about to this. Absolutely.

And he says that's one of the most fun

experiences he's ever had in a car. He

says even he took his Viper down tail

the dragon and as fun as that was being

in first gear at 3,000 RPM for most of

the road is not as fun as he had hoped.

>> Yes, for sure. Yes. Art has always been

a closet Porsche fan. Since driving a

Cayenne and now a Macan, he believes

he's able to understand what Porsche's

driving dynamics philosophy is. It helps

that Art is open to different design

styles and he appreciates certain

characteristics that Porsche has chosen.

He's smitten by 996 turbos, but he

realizes that's a 20-year-old car. Mhm.

>> He says they're half a price of the 997

twin turbos, so he'd consider it. But

another possibility would be going to a

991.2 Carrera with that 3 L turbo

engine.

>> Those those have actually come down

quite a bit.

>> They have. That could be interesting. I

like what you're thinking. It's not out

of the question, but when it comes to

price point about 40 to 60,000, he would

need, it sounds like something to really

special to justify that kind of price. I

think I can do it. He's intrigued by the

718S, but he doesn't he knows it's an

amazing machine, but now we're talking

two seats only.

>> Yeah, we're back.

>> So, we really are talking about more

than two seats here. He of course he has

a history of working at a local BMW

dealership, so of course he looks back

fondly on all the early 2000s BMWs. You

pick your BMW and he kind of goes,

current garage is his daily Macan. His

wife has a Suburban. He still has a 1990

Eagle Talon TSI and his C6 Z06 with

entirely too much power. So, he could

buy something outright for 30 to 40

grand or possibly something newer and

more expensive if we can convince him he

would actually finance the remaining

balance. He's trying to fill the hole

that the Viper left his heart. It's

going to be hard, but this is what he's

come to us with.

>> Art, I've got choices for you, but these

are all supplemental. Think of these all

in addition to what you're talking

about.

>> That Mini Cooper,

>> I've talked about the third generation,

how much I love that. So, if you love

the R53 and you want to spend a little

bit more, go get yourself a John Cooper

Works Mini or that Mini GP. I think you

would have a ball driving that car. I

think you'd love it. And it is the

antithesis to everything you've talked

about. And you even admitted how much

fun you had driving it.

>> Agreed. Yes.

>> Yes. To the 911 as well. If you can do a

911.2. Yes. The Carrera S. Yes. the four

seats. Absolutely. If you can swing it,

I would say go test drive them first to

see if that that really does it for you.

But if you really want four seats and

you're really at a 30 to $40,000 budget,

you need some wing in your life

>> in the form of a Civic Type R or the

Hyundai Elantre N.

>> Both are excellent. Yes,

>> here are those cars. I think those are

both great choices. The Hyundai is a

little bit lower priced, but still the

Civic Type R, lots of fun, and I think

your kids would also fight to get in the

front seat for this car. I think they

would still really enjoy

>> being in this car. Those are four cars,

four choices so far.

>> But if you want I always think the the

two-door

>> four seat, it started life as just the 2

series. It's a it's a coupe

>> and then BMW made it hot and fire

breathing and that's the M2 competition.

So, really good, really fun. Really like

this car. That is also a choice that I

think you should drive one. But the car

that I think you should actually go buy,

okay, because you have a viper-shaped

hole in your heart to fill.

>> It's 700 horsepower. It came with a

warranty. The engineering and metallurgy

would make you think that these are

going to last a long time. I mean, up to

this point, I haven't heard of too many

Hellcat engines disintegrating

>> because of how they were driving.

They're just supercharged wine and a lot

of thunder and drama. You said you want

something unique and has history.

Charger.

>> Yeah.

>> 700 horsepower right out of the box. I

think you should absolutely go get

yourself a Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat

widebody. 700 horsepower

in your face.

>> Mhm. Just think you and all all three of

your kids doing burnouts. This is what

burnouts feel like. Kids,

>> the entire family. You and your wife and

all three kids. Burnouts galore.

>> This is the four-door Viper.

>> Yeah, you're right. It actually is. You

You've nailed that.

>> The car.

>> You've nailed that. Yes.

>> And I think they're not 30 to 40.

They're going to be more than that. But

you said if you could justify it.

>> And it seems like you want something

really fun

>> and you'd be open to going completely in

the opposite direction. Hence the mini.

Something totally different. You'd be

you'd love it. But I also think you said

you closed your email. I've got a Viper

longing.

>> Yeah,

>> it did it for you. It was the car that

you lusted after at age seven. You had

one and then realized, I can't really

drive this. This is the usable

>> 700 horsepower

>> Viper.

This is it, my friend.

>> I think you've hit it. That's excellent.

That's really good. I I don't think I

did that well, but I'm going to try to

sell you on my idea here, Art. And that

is I I'm looking at your current garage.

That's very good, Paul. Well done.

Looking at your current garage and I'm

thinking about what's not in it and what

you need. And what I really want to sell

you, what I really want to sell you is a

2 plus two.

>> But the problem is a 2 plus two doesn't

work for multiple growing kids. The two

plus two just has a ticking clock above

it because they're going to outgrow it.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's just a matter of which one did

you get. I mean, honestly, of the 911s

that you brought up, the 991992 is the

one where they genuinely becomes a car

where it's got usable back seats, but

it's still a ticking clock. At some

point, all the fun 2 plus2s just time

out because the kids got too big and

like, "Dad, I don't want to sit back

there anymore." Okay. So, unfortunately,

we are talking about four doors, four

seats here,

>> I think. So,

>> to really do what you want to do. You

have a Macan. Your wife has a Suburban.

You have an Eagle Talon TSI.

And you already have a focused car with

too much power. You've admitted it's too

much power. A 600 wheel horsepower C6

Z06 that you've said is too much. So,

what I want to do is get you something

that is none of those.

>> Okay.

>> But it's got to be four doors, four

seats. One of them that came to mind

that is kind of a variant of where you

were, and I have to at least mention it

is the Alpha Giulia Quadrifogio. Cuz I'm

the guy that always brings that car up.

That would work. though. I think Paul

did it better with the Charger

Challenger. That's the better one.

Honestly,

>> I think that's the four-door Viper.

>> The four-door.

>> But I think the car that springs off of

your comment about the Mini and gets

this done is Paul's already said it, but

I have to say it again. I think you are

a Civic Type R buyer. The Civic Type R

feels special at 20.

>> Yeah. It just feels interesting. The

Hellcats, the Vipers, these kind of

things. You've talked about Tale of the

Dragon and other places where your super

high horsepower cars aren't fun.

>> The Civic Type R does that thing where

yes, you mentioned in here you don't

want something that wasn't purpose-built

to be this. I would argue that in this

case the Civic Type R, they were

thinking this first and then downgraded

it.

>> This is how the Civic Type R feels. It

doesn't feel I think you're right. I

mentioned before this was like a blank

check project at Honda. It doesn't feel

like can you make the Civic fast? It

feels like, can you make the perfect

Civic? And then, by the way, give us a

low rent hybrid version, too, because

this has a shocking amount of rear seat

space. This has rear seat space better

than most 5seat SUVs and pretty much

every one of its competitors. Amazing

amount of rear seat space.

>> But when you drive it at 10 or 20,

you're still like, "Oh, this is

special." You haven't done anything yet.

You just I pulled it out of the driveway

and down the block and I shifted once

and I, oh, there's a stop sign. And

you're still aware in the back of your

mind, this is a special car.

>> True. But you got kids in the back and

they're happy. And then when you have a

great road trip, you can do it. There's

trunk space.

>> Y

>> and when you wind up on Tail of the

Dragon, your Civic Type R, I I bet you

money, your Civic Type R day on Tail of

the Dragon will be more fun than when

you took your Viper.

>> That sounds crazy on paper.

>> I believe it. Absolutely. Yes.

>> So, I think Civic Type R is nothing like

anything else in your garage. You can

just go buy one with your budget.

You can take the kids, you can have fun,

and you can go for groceries. So, I am

landing beginning and end at Civic Type

R. Really, that's it. You're calling

your shot.

>> I'm calling my shot at that car. Even

though you did really well with the

Hellcat,

>> but I'm going be it's it's the mini

sentence in here

>> where he's all of these other things he

talked about and then randomly this mini

front-wheel drive that he had no

expectations about is one of his most

fun driving experiences ever. Civic Type

R at 300 horsepower. And we're done.

>> Art, I even toyed with Lotus Avora GT.

>> Ooh. Except you've only get like a kid

and a half in.

>> Exactly. But growing kids. I mean, four

seats technically, but I was trying to

squeeze by in the technicality.

>> I like the compromise because it's not

the low power Mini. It's Civic Type R is

in the

>> You can't drive the Civic Type R and not

know it's special.

>> You could drop somebody with no

awareness of cars into that car and

they're going to be like, "Yeah, this

car is cool."

>> Art, happy hunting. Let us know what you

get and we'll read it on air for a car.

>> Speaking of car conclusions, we're going

to do a couple. We haven't done a couple

in a little while. We're going to do a

couple real quick. We don't have any

questions this time. We want to do car

car conclusions instead. We're already

at 90 minutes, which we're going to keep

rocking. Many of you have just said keep

going. So, we're going to keep going

with a car conclusion from Constantine.

You may have heard of this. Recently, it

was the car debate we actually did

recently where it was, "What do driving

instructors drive?" So he is writing

back, "This is the guy that works as a

Porsche driving instructor, and we were

many, many, many, many recommendations

for him, and he loved it." He kind of

breaks them all down, and he talks about

the M2 Competition. He talks about the

GLA 35 and 45 that you brought up, the

GLE. He talks about the fact he was

completely intrigued and surprised by

you mentioning the BMW X2. He was like,

"I hadn't even thought of that."

Inexpensive.

>> Intrigued him.

You mentioned the new Rav 4 as maybe if

you're leaning more commute than not.

>> That was an outlier.

>> That was an outlier. But he he he talks

about that was interesting as well, but

he wanted more fun.

>> He even talked about the twocar

conclusion, the two-car thought, but he

was like, one of them is never going to

get driven.

>> Yeah.

>> And then we both brought up the Macan

and just said, "Why don't you just go

buy a Macan? You're a Porsche driving

coach.

>> Porsche driving coaches drive Macan."

>> And you Well, he wants a daily. He was

looking at hatchbacks. He wants a daily.

He realized when he was shopping the

Macan that it was a foot longer and half

a foot wider than the Golf platform. He

drove the GTI and thought it was okay.

So Macan was in the running. The GTI was

in the running. And then he drove the

Golf R, which was already on his radar.

And he said he's delighted to say he's

fallen in love with the little car. He

has picked one up. The interior feels

much nicer than his competitors. I do

have to agree with you there. He says he

feels like Volkswagen was copying

Porsche's notes on this car.

>> He wishes that it had the Mark 8.5

traditional buttons on the steering

wheel, but the Golf R didn't get that.

So, he's kind of had to learn to work

with them. Most of the time he's

actually done fine, but he's had to

learn to work with them. So, he has a

current Golf R. He says the power is

perfect for his needs. It's actually not

left him wanting, which the GTI did. He

says he's always getting out of a 911

Turbo S. He needs to get into something

that feels like it's got some grunt. The

Golf R has made it happen. He is

thrilled. He said he decided he was not

going to modify the car, but even with

the Golf R's adjustable dampers, it

didn't ride quite right. So, I love

this. He went down from factory 19s to

those look great. This is Constantine's

car. He sent us photos. It looks great.

And it still looks good. Yeah. Yeah,

with the 17 smaller wheels.

>> Apex 17s with more sidewall has solved

the issues he had with feeling like it

was kind of borderline unacceptable on

the potholes of LA.

>> That looks great, by the way.

>> That does look great. I think you've

done so well, Constantina. I love that

you actually considered the choices

because sometimes I think they're

dismissed, but they're not done without

a lot of thought and care. But I like

that you went in your own direction and

you let the car speak to you what you

you wanted. It seemed like maybe a

little bit of bias crept in, but you

really let the car speak and you've done

so well. This is fantastic. Yeah, the

slight mods and going down

>> inches down in wheel diameter. Everybody

Everybody listen, the internet suggests

that's the wrong direction. It looks

cool and he said it solved the ride

issues. Plus, those are great looking

wheels from Apex. I love those.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> Constantine, well done. Thank you for

writing. Really appreciate it.

Congratulations on your new ride. I hope

you enjoy it a long time. And I think

when people ask, you've got a great

story to tell. You've got, yeah, you're

a Porsche driving coach and yeah, you

get out of some of the hottest, coolest,

fastest cars, and then you get in this

and you're still happy and maybe even

more so. That's pretty cool. Thank you

for writing. In the opposite category,

we have uh Garrett, who wrote in for his

car conclusion, and it is one of those

stories where we made recommendations

and it did not end up that way. Garrett

liked our Z4 suggestion from episode

943. You spent a lot of a lot of time

playing around with a configurator.

Purple with white interior just looks so

good. That's the problem. Everybody

thinks, "Yeah, it looks so good when

it's new." And in the configurator,

>> white interior is always a problem.

>> 3 minutes later,

>> always a problem.

>> Yeah. Mhm.

>> Well, he decided it was too much like

his wife's purple M240i.

>> I can see that. Yes.

>> Wanted something different.

>> Garrett also decided that he wanted to

stay away from turbos this time around.

So, he started looking at convertibles

to rent on turo. He rented a C7 in Cali

and it solidified what he already knew,

just not enough headroom, but amazing

mountain roads with a 55 mph speed

limit, of course.

>> He says that he knows a lot of people

like to trash talk California, but he

said the same roads he enjoyed in

California with a 55 mph speed limit,

he's pretty sure would have had a 25 mph

speed limit in his home in Wyoming. So,

in that regard, he's hat tipping to

California for that. He loved it. He

also rented a 981 base PDK in Arizona to

see how it would work. Had power seats

and while it didn't feel quite as sporty

as the C7. The let down was he couldn't

get enough headroom, but he isn't

letting it go. The 981 Spider has been a

dream car of mine since it first came

out. More than once since then, he's

made trips to actually sit in other

Spiders to determine if he fits in the

top-of-the-line buckets. He can just

barely fit. He's even taken a 300 mile

road trip just to sit in one. So, he

spent time looking for the right spider.

Wanted to get the very specific

top-of-the-line bucket seats. Either

white or red interior in either yellow,

blue, or paint to sample with a black

interior. He found a yellow spider.

$93,000 in January. Learned that it only

takes a massive down payment for a bank

to back you on $100,000 car. So, now he

has to go back to saving. So, 6 months

of waiting and looking at everything

else you can imagine. E46s, Z4Ms,

GT350s. Again, still pining after the

Spider. He did exactly what you'd

expect. And he bought a 2025 Ford F-150

Lightning, which is ex none of the

things he was looking none of them. Here

it is on one of his trips. Here's the

Lightning. And you know what? He loves

it. He says it checks exactly none of

the boxes he was looking for.

>> That's fantastic. The The trick here is

he actually works at a Ford dealership,

got great incentives on this. His

commute is three miles, so EV is

perfect. that with the promotion and

everything it that's happened in his

life. This is actually been the perfect

choice even though not at all what he

was expecting to actually solve this

problem. So in that regard, you got a

great car conclusion even though we're

completely off the map. He has looked at

Lotus of Denver to see if maybe he could

get an Amira. I like this idea.

>> That's a fantastic idea.

>> But for now, he has an F-150 Lightning.

>> I like how you leave us with this

question that I think we should tackle

for a topic Tuesday sometime, Garrett.

He said, "What is worse as a car

enthusiast? Knowing exactly what you

want and not having the funds to make it

happen or having the funds but not

knowing exactly what you want."

>> Oo,

>> I think that's a great place to leave

the podcast

>> to end things and revisit it as a future

topic Tuesday. But thank you guys for

all of your emails. We really appreciate

the photos. The followup

>> means a lot. Thank you. And I love that

you want to share your cars with us and

uh share it with the community, too. So,

write to us [email protected].

Car conclusions, topic Tuesdays, car

debates. We're looking forward to next

time. As always, cheers everyone.

[Music]

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103:22

The Most Fun Car At Each Price Point, Van Life In A Car, Jail Speeds In First Gear | Episode 1,015

Maybach GLS 600

Lexus Century

LS3

About this episode

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