The Problem With Porsche, Corvette ZR-1, ZR-1X, Moving On After The Unexpected | Episode 1,001
Everyday Driver Car Debate
The Problem With Porsche, Corvette ZR-1, ZR-1X, Moving On After The Unexpected | Episode 1,001
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104:51
Car
Hyundai Genesis
The Genesis G90 is a high-end car designed for comfort and luxury. It's similar to other expensive cars like the Mercedes S-Class, but it's usually priced lower, making it a more affordable option in the luxury market.
Car
Genesis G90
Car
Lexus LS
The Lexus LS is a top-of-the-line luxury car from Lexus, designed for comfort and style. It's known for being very quiet and smooth to drive, making it a favorite among those who want a premium experience.
Car
Mercedes-Benz S-Class
The Mercedes-Benz S-Class is a very luxurious car that many people consider the best in its class. It's known for being very comfortable and packed with the latest technology.
Brand
Lexus
Lexus is a brand of luxury cars made by Toyota. They are known for being comfortable and having lots of high-tech features.
Car
Chevrolet Corvette
The Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 is a super-fast version of the Corvette sports car. It's built for high performance and has a lot of advanced features that make it really exciting to drive.
Concept
mid-engine Corvette
A mid-engine Corvette means the engine is placed in the middle of the car, which helps it handle better and go faster. It's a design used in many sports cars.
Term
Chevy
Chevy is a short way of saying Chevrolet, which is a car company that makes many types of vehicles, including sports cars and trucks.
Car
Chevrolet ZR1X
The Chevrolet ZR1X is a special version of the Corvette sports car that is designed for high performance. It has a powerful engine and features that make it faster and more exciting to drive.
Term
all-wheel drive
All-wheel drive means that all four wheels of the car can get power from the engine. This helps the car grip the road better, especially in rain or snow.
Car
NSX
The Honda NSX is a famous sports car known for being fast and having a unique design. It was one of the first cars to use a lot of aluminum, making it lighter and more efficient.
Term
ZR1
The ZR1 is a super-fast version of the Chevrolet Corvette that has extra power and special features to make it even better for racing and performance.
Car
Chevrolet Corvette Stingray
The Chevrolet Corvette Stingray is a high-performance sports car. The C8 is the latest version, which has its engine located in the middle of the car for better handling.
Term
horsepower
Horsepower is a way to measure how powerful an engine is. More horsepower usually means the car can go faster.
Car
Chevrolet Corvette Z06
The Chevrolet Corvette Z06 is a faster version of the regular Corvette. It has a more powerful engine and is designed for better performance on the track.
Car
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
The Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 is a super powerful version of the Corvette. It has a very strong engine and is built for speed and racing.
Term
hyper-car
Hyper-cars are super expensive cars that are extremely fast and powerful. They are usually the best of the best when it comes to performance and technology.
Term
supercars
Supercars are very fast and expensive cars that are made to be the best in terms of speed and performance. They are often seen as luxury items.
Term
power at the wheels
Power at the wheels means how much power actually gets to the tires of the car. It's important because it shows how well the car performs when driving.
Term
rear-wheel drive
In a rear-wheel drive car, the back wheels are the ones that get the power from the engine, which can help with speed and control when driving fast.
Car
Chevrolet ZR1
The Chevrolet ZR1 is a super-fast version of the Corvette sports car. It has a lot of power and special features that make it one of the best Corvettes you can buy.
Car
Chevrolet Zora
The Chevrolet Zora is a new version of the Corvette that many car fans are excited about. It's named after a famous engineer who helped make the Corvette popular.
Term
cars and coffee
Cars and Coffee is a fun event where people with cool cars come together to show them off and talk about cars. It's a casual way for car lovers to meet up.
Company
Koenigsegg
Koenigsegg is a company that makes very fast and expensive sports cars. They are known for their cutting-edge technology and high performance.
Car
Porsche 911
The Porsche 911 is a famous sports car that has been made for many years. It comes in many different styles and is known for being very fast and fun to drive.
Term
Grandsport
Grandsport is a special version of the Chevrolet Corvette that focuses on making the car faster and better at handling. It usually has some upgrades to help it perform better on the road or track.
Term
robotaxi
A robotaxi is a self-driving car that can pick you up and take you to your destination without anyone behind the wheel. It's like a taxi, but it drives itself.
Car
Tesla Model 3
The Tesla Model 3 is a popular electric car that can drive long distances on a single charge. It's known for being high-tech and can even drive itself in some situations.
Car
Nissan Armada
The Nissan Armada is a large SUV that can carry many passengers and has a lot of space for cargo. It's built for comfort and can handle tough roads.
Car
BMW M4
Car
Infiniti QX80
Car
Lucid Air
Car
Mazda Rx7
Car
Mazda Miata
Car
Mclaren F1
Car
Gordon T50
Car
Porsche Cayman
Car
Porsche 928
Car
Porsche 911 GT3
Car
Porsche 356S
Car
Shelby Cobra
Car
Porsche Boxster
Car
BMW E46
Car
Volkswagen Gtis
Car
Audi Quattro
Car
Alpine A110
Car
Mclaren Artura
Car
Acura RSX
Car
Toyota Corolla
Car
Honda Fit
Car
Ram 1500
Car
Jeep Wrangler
Car
Porsche Cayenne
Car
Mazda 3
Car
Hyundai Kona
Car
Honda Civic
Car
Toyota Prius
Car
Subaru BRZ
Car
Toyota Rav4
Car
Volvo S60
Car
Volvo V60
Car
Volvo XC60
Car
BMW Z4
Car
Ford Mustang GT
Car
Chevrolet Camaro
Car
Ford Focus RS
Car
Saab Turbo X
Car
BMW M2
Car
Mazda Mx5
LIVE
And we're back. We're back. We're back. Here we are. Totally new place. New studio. For those of you not watching and only listening, I'm going to describe real quickly. We have a studio now. It has a little bit of a wood backdrop. It's got a screen between us. We're still sitting at the tables too. Sound deadening is going on like crazy. We have three cameras. One for me, one for Paul, and one for the wide shot. There will be a lot of learning. You guys are going to get used to this. We're going to get used to this. We're going to learn how to use the screen. We're going to try to keep this very
audio-friendly. That is important to both of us. Yeah, for sure. But the big thing to know is this is podcast 1,001. We're going to try to do as many of them in studio as we can now to get around our travel. We're going to go to one a week. They're going to be roughly 90 minutes. So we're going to cover everything in every episode, including your questions. So this episode has news, a topic Tuesday, card debates, car conclusions. It has other random rants. I have something I want to talk about in film. We're going to get to your questions. I expect it to be every bit of 90 minutes.
And if you're just listening to this, thank you for being with us up to this point. And we look forward to thousands more episodes. I hope if you're just finding us on video. Yeah, I don't know. Wow. Just finding us right now in video. I hope you enjoy it in the video format. It is available on Spotify with video. It's now called the video. Spotify for creators. Thank you. So pretty driver video card debate is worth. If you're looking for video on Spotify. But otherwise, if you're just trying to get it on audio, it's all the places you've normally gotten. This should have popped up right now on your subscription.
And then you can see the video feed automatically. And it will drop as a video on YouTube at noon on Tuesdays going forward. So that's all the kind of, hey, guess what we're back stuff the house cleaning stuff up front. And because we're learning. I'm sure the studio will change over time. I'm sure we'll figure out lighting fixes. There's ways to do other things. I want to all kinds of stuff. There's lighting coming. There's more sound deadening. But you know, at least we've got the bones of the new studio, which is nice. We're actually able to cut as of today. We're sorry. It's been so long. We have been trying to
travel. I wore the Coda shirt. I know you did. In memory of the fact that we just got back from that massive Coda trip, 5,000 miles like 14 states. It was crazy. And we haven't even released any of the videos from that yet. They're coming. And we've got probably, I think it's going to be either four or five videos. It might be six. But I think it's four or five videos. They're going to come out in a series one every two weeks. We've got different cars in every video, which I'm very excited about incredible roads nationwide. So that is coming in addition to a bunch of other stuff from us. But every Tuesday.
New podcast. This is pretty awesome. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for being patient. And we've got so much to cover. There's been so much car news that has happened between our giant trip. And now, so we've got to dive into a few things. We've got some press cars to cover. By the way, you've been driving the new Genesis G90 around. I have been driving the show for your family. I have been showfaring everybody I could find. Yes. So the Genesis G90 is back. We had it. I don't know a couple of years ago. We had one. And we really, really liked it. And my whole family liked it. I took
everybody out in this. Really liked it. This is an executive sedan. This is the modern day faten in a lot of ways. You know, it is the less expensive, super sedan. This one was white. Sadly, I didn't love that. But it had a nice kind of brown and maroon interior combination that was really, really elegant inside white. It was white. It was fine. But this, this is not an amazing looking car. It's subtle in that area. I mean, you look at the new S class. You look at the LS from Lexus. Those are a lot more shouting than this.
Visually, but this is what Lexus has done since they first released the LS. It's all the stuff you get with the other brands, but done a lot cheaper. Now it's a $100,000 car. My dad kept going, I'd love to have one of these, but they were 30. It's like, well, yeah, nothing, nothing is anywhere. Pick up trucks are a hundred grand. No, here's the thing. Hardly anything's below 30 anymore. This has not heated everything. Cooled everything. It actually, here's an update since the last one we had. It now has door closed buttons for front and rear.
That is the thing because the doors, the doors are way, they're way out there. They're way, way out. You're going to reach for the door. So you actually can hit buttons on the console to pull all the doors closed. So there's that. But I mean, full executive seating in the back, heated, cooled, massaged and all four. It was a wonderful place to be. I did multiple airport. It just happened that I did multiple airport runs in the last week. What it's for? It was superb. You were the delivery driver. I was the delivery driver. Now, it's a big executive sedan with soft suspension, even in sport mode. You're kind of like, this is kind of big and floating.
But who cares? That's not his point. This strikes me as this is the buy in this market. Second, it's, it's the one that if you want to talk, I can't say affordable. It's the affordable one when the, when the Germans are a hundred and 50 grand plus for the one from the Germans. So this is 50% less, which is crazy to think about. So there's that. But most people that buy these, this is the problem with this market seconds. Why the, it's why the fate and dropped the thing. There is no second buy.
A price is higher for cars like this. So I think the deal is gonna be used once of these, are gonna be amazing. And I'm very curious and people have brought it up. Of course. You buy the LS, because you want it to run for 15, 20 years. But people that buy the executive sedans, have them for two. They lease them and they dump them.
So what is the longevity of this G 90? I don't know. But it is so much car for the money. I like it so much.
Just the faten.
It's the faten again.
It's that thinking.
A brand you don't expect, competes with all the big boys with all the tech you could imagine.
And honestly, I like the tech in this usability wise more than I do, the S class or the LS
from Lexus.
The door closing is just the best on this thing.
It's super.
I don't know who heard us and why we have to have help with doors, but I will at least give
it to Genesis on this, that with the G90, the doors are way, they're way, way out there.
So having a button, because of the way you're like leaning out of the car.
So having a button in that regard is helpful, even though it feels, it feels absurd, but
it's very nice.
It's absurd and excellent.
Well, as we talked about, there has been so much news that has happened, so many other
cars test drives that we've done, press cars that we've driven, since we've had this
hiatus, this break, but the biggest news that has come out has been the Corvette.
The ZR1 has been announced and shortly after, the ZR1X.
And I have a bone to pick with Corvette about the ZR1X name.
Although, if you recall, in our 2018 film, American Original, we talked about the Zora
coming, which is an homage to Zora, Arcas Duntav, who can be considered the founder of
the Corvette.
15 prototypes of mid-engine Corvettes were done under his watch.
So really, it does have a, it's a nice fitting thing he pushed with the most performance.
So the ZR1 comes out.
We were not invited to the press launch, even though I'm kind of glad we weren't, because
we were at Coda, just the week, was it the week after?
It was at Coda, less than a week before we were at Coda, just a big, a big afterwards.
So we were there.
We were there close, yeah.
But then the ZR1X comes out, and it's not named Zora.
And I read articles saying that Zora was the invention of all of us.
It was the invention or the word that had gotten out there that most people had thought it
should be called Zora.
Yeah.
And most people were right, by the way, it should have been called Zora.
Yeah.
But because Chevy came out with the ZR1X, the extra, it doesn't have a story behind it.
It's not that they said, well, the ZR1X and they had a good reason for it to be called
X instead of the Zora.
They just actually resisted everybody calling it the Zora because they just wanted to do
their own thing.
So they called the ZR1X, but there's no real explanation.
There's no good story behind it.
But they're, but they're not doing their own thing because X has become a designator
BMW leading the charge for X means all-wheel drive.
That's what they've done.
They've said, well, if it's the ZR1 rear-wheel drive and we added the e-ray motor to the
front, which is essentially what they've done, blowing away the front front and making
it all-wheel drive on demand.
So we actually get to amortize the e-ray technology that we built and, oh, look, it's all-wheel
drive now.
Well, that means it's a ZR1, but all-wheel drive, so we should put an X at the back.
This isn't even inventive.
It's not even like they came up with something new.
It looks like they're looking at others and going, well, X apparently is what means
all-wheel drive.
So it's a ZR1X.
They had an opportunity.
I'm sorry, but they had an opportunity to call it the Zora.
They could have called it the Zora.
They should have already calling it the Zora.
This is a huge fumble because it looks to me like they're looking at others.
I agree.
And they should have done this homage to anybody who really influences a car.
And this leads us to Gordon Murray and some news about Gordon Murray.
But throughout the ages, there have been special designations for cars that are an homage
to the person that really influenced.
And some of the articles that I saw, they brought up Valentino Balboni for Lamborghini.
The long-time beloved test driver for Lamborghini.
So they had the Balboni edition Gallardo, and there was, I think, a Gordon Murray edition,
something else.
They had the Senna, Erton Senna edition NSX.
It made that car even more special.
Oh, I've got the Senna NSX.
So if they made the Zora, or whatever, there was a seminar to you, I think.
But you see the trend, they could have, they should have, they didn't for no reason at
all.
I agree.
And somebody, it's poor thinking, poor planning, and it's against everything what the
Corvette, the ultimate Corvette could have been.
It's against enthusiasts in that regard.
And I promise you.
I promise you there was a meeting where somebody who had, say, declared, this is the all-wheel-drive
ZR1.
It should just be the ZR1X and we're done.
And that is a fail.
Now having said that massive fail, having said that we, we are about to sell our C8, which
is a stingray.
It's a lowly stingray with 500 horsepower.
The stingray we have, the C8 we have is fast, stop wherever you've read that says it's
not fast.
It's a 500 horsepower V8 mid-engine rear wheel drive car, it is a fast car.
You have the e-ray above it because it's all-wheel-drive.
The Z06 above that, right, with its whatever, it's 600 horsepower, flat plane, screaming
engine, crazy thing is that.
So that's faster, but now we have the ZR1 at 1,064, which guess, because more is better.
You heard this, right?
More is better.
But what the Corvette's all about?
The Corvette's driven the ZR1 that we've watched.
Kind of can't get comments out.
The car is so overwhelming that they just drive it like laughing children and they're
done.
Okay?
Which says to me that most people that buy it, it's going to be a total bragging rights
car and they're never going to extract what it can do.
And now we have the ZR1X because it's all-wheel-drive, Paul, above that with 1200 horsepower, we are
in the realm of, we're so far into lack of usability here.
Now, I understand the argument.
The argument is, we are competing with hyper-car numbers with a Corvette badge on the front
and it's going to cost a fraction of those.
This is probably going to be a quarter million dollar car, certainly with markups.
Every bit.
It'll probably be more than that with markups, probably over 300 grand of markups.
But the argument will be, look at all the power you get for the money, which has always
been a Corvette thing.
I get it.
We are so far out of the realm of usability, I don't even understand it.
It's like Corvette has already done what every hot version of anything will do to a car.
We already made it 800 horsepower for you, instead of buying the 600 horsepower, 650 old
Z06 and why I put an even bigger turbo on it or two turbos or five turbos, whatever.
Why tune it?
We've already paid you 1200 horsepower for everyone.
That's good.
Now, they want, as you said, they want to compete against the supercars, the hypercars.
But what happens to those hypercars?
The higher in price you go and the more power and the more absurd they are, I think the
less they get driven.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
Yes.
Agreed.
They get driven.
For sure.
So, therefore, what do you do with a 1,250 horsepower, ostensibly?
It may make even more because now we're reading things about how the regular old ZR1,
not the stupid X, is making even more power at the wheels, which means it's like 11
100 and change at the crank, which will make the ZR1 X stupid.
I can't believe we really can't get past it.
We really, it's terrible.
It really is.
But it's not forgivable because Chevy doesn't have a good reason otherwise.
No, I agree.
There's not some grand story well that's acceptable.
There's not even history where they can be like, oh right, the X, of course you use the
X.
No.
BMW says it's all wheel drive, so we did it too.
That's really all I could come up with.
It's terrible decision.
So therefore, I think it made it less special.
Interesting.
Name alone.
If it's the Zora.
You know, I agree with you.
You know what, that's right.
Mark up?
You're right.
Pay a mark up.
I got the Zora.
It's not just any Corvette.
It's not even the ZR1.
It's the Zora.
You know, you've brought up an interesting point because the ZR1 X is going to say, not
everybody, it's going to say some enthusiast, oh, you don't know how to drive.
You had to get the all wheel drive one.
It is.
Some enthusiasts are going to say that.
You got the ZR1 because it's a rear wheel drive.
You got the ZR1 X because you don't know how to drive.
And you can't handle the power.
You can't handle the power of a rear wheel drive car.
That's going to be a bit of the impression.
Now, that's not going to be everybody.
Certainly plenty of people and plenty of hyper cars are all wheel drive and I get it.
But to your point, if it was called the Zora, you would have gotten it anyway because
it's the top one.
It's the king.
You would just, ZR1 X suggests a trim variation.
Yes.
It's just the X.
I wanted the all wheel drive.
I didn't want the career to, I wanted the career for.
But now all is lost.
You cannot introduce the Zora and say, we were just, we took your advice to heart.
You can't have the ZR1, the ZR1 X and then eventually do some Zora unless with the ninth
generation, you appease all of us car enthusiasts, Chevy, because I still think you should.
If you do the ninth generation and then you finally introduce the Zora, why wait?
You could have had it now.
But then what do you do with all these incredibly powerful Corbettes if you don't track them and
most people won't because you don't track your hyper car?
It sits.
It goes to cars and coffee and you brag about the numbers and you let somebody imagine
what those numbers translate into speed.
That also means you as a driver have to be very technically capable and skillful to be
able to handle a car doing the things you imagine it can.
Well, that's the thing.
I mean, it's a bragging rights thing.
You're going to be able to, you're going to stand at cars and coffee or your local bar
or wherever and you're going to talk about what the ZR1 X60 is and what the top speed is
even though you've never achieved either.
100% I, you know, we've seen this a lot.
This is not limited to Corvette.
I mean, I remember I told this story before there was a guy here in Utah or Nevada that
had a Kunigzeg and he rented that strip in Nevada where everybody's high speed runs and brought
an erasing driver because he wanted to accomplish on camera it doing top speed and I asked
a question and just got blank stairs back from the people doing post production on the
film.
I was like, but he's not going to drive it that like, no, why would he?
I was like, because how does he get to brag about it?
My car, my car does 250 unless he did 250, but it's a bragging rights thing.
And this is a part of the market and I know I'm a car guy and I get it.
This is the place where I split.
I would rather use all of a car regularly.
My foot pushing against the firewall, then be able to say, oh, well, apparently my car
goes this fast and I've never even floored it.
But this is a fantastic look, kudos to Chevy for the fact that this car exists.
Yes.
It has this much power that people are driving it and it isn't killing them.
I mean, that was, here's the thing.
Well, they don't know yet.
No, no, not in production.
No, no, true, true.
No, the journalists haven't been killed by it to, to, to a person, journalists have
not wrecked the cars.
No, they haven't wrecked the car so far, which is a, which is a plus and there, but most
of them, even the ones that I, that I trust that I believe that know how to drive are
talking about the fact that it is surprisingly approachable for a 1000 horsepower car, that
it, that is something that can be managed and that is an accomplishment.
Agreed.
Okay.
So I am very impressed with Chevy.
I just think it's a naming fail and we don't, we as humankind do not need power like
this.
Except to stand around and brag about.
What do you do?
You don't do.
You don't do.
The only direction is down and it's the, the Corvette T. I keep talking about the Corvette
T. Well, the light weight version and make it the lightest Corvette that has ever been
lightened up.
Well, but here's the thing, Corvette is starting to look like they are looking at Porsche,
who has every possible variant of the 911.
It's starting to look that way where you could, what is your version of the 911 and I
come back to, wouldn't be interesting if the C9 Corvette is available with a manual again.
And all the ways they can split it because here's the other thing I'd think about talking
about it, the Corvette related to the 911, not only do you have all these trims we just
talked about, but they all also come in convertible.
So all the trims we're talking about are now doubled because they all come in convertible
as well.
Right.
So this is 911 thinking and I'm very curious to see what other versions
they could make and why not make a manual transmission trimmed down version.
And if it had, it's almost Grandsport thinking again because you know the Grandsport was
the bodywork and the suspension, we don't.
The bodywork and suspension of the Z06 with the engine of the lesser model.
That should be available in the C8, certainly the C9 with a manual, anyway, that's quite
a rant on Corvette.
We're again, all these parts have to look like we've given shiny, we are not alone.
The vitriol that they deserve for coming out with the X.
That is the worst name for a super car.
The ZR1 Awesome.
The ZR1 X, it lost me.
I don't want one.
I am very curious if anybody wants to drive it, but as a take, that is, oh, you can't
handle the rear-wheel drive one.
I think with ZR1 X, I think it creates that possibility, Zora Wooden of the ZR1 X speaking
of things to rant about.
Did you notice that the robotaxies have invaded Austin?
They have.
Stuff about how they're kind of ignoring the speed limits, ignoring cops and kind of
misbehaving.
Well, and apparently they are robotaxies with minors driving them too, so there's that.
Look, there really, there isn't a commentary other than to say that Elon Musk has been talking
about robotaxies for years and years and years, and you're going to be able to take your
model three and have it make money for you while you sleep.
None of that's happened, but he did that dog and pony show at Warner Brothers last year,
where he shook the hand of a spaceman and drove around a lot, right, and it just felt
so much like a movie production to me.
I've already ranted about that, but he has hit one of his deadlines for these robotaxies
being introduced in Austin.
Now, Waymo's already existing in Austin.
Waymo's had plenty of their own problems.
They're out way out front.
What is this going to be in reality?
We simply don't know yet, but we know that Austin, which is kind of, you know, Tesla's become
very Texas heavy.
Austin now has robotaxies with or without actual Tesla hired minder or in some cases,
I read this.
They don't have a minder, but they have like a remote minder, like somebody watching
it from a screen from far away, they'll never not have a remote minder.
I just, I don't always know.
It's totally autonomous.
No, it's not.
Yeah.
I mean, the robot's dancing at the last Warner Brothers party world control behind the scenes.
I mean, it's, it's really hard to know what smoke and mirrors here other than you can
take a robotaxie with a Tesla if you don't want to take away Moe.
In Austin, I guess that's this victory.
I don't know.
At least it's happening, I suppose, after being promised for years and years and years,
other odd news.
We're about to drive the Nissan Armada.
I'm actually looking forward to it.
It's been completely refreshed.
The same week we're about to drive it and that that Tesla drive will be coming.
Nissan has announced the Mismo Armada.
People are asking if this was designed by AI.
It might as well have been.
This is really odd looking because they had, they wanted to put
the red Nismo, like lower trim on it, which is something that the Nismo's have had forever.
I get it.
That's our thing.
This is, it's very strange looking.
It looks like it has a weird, like, it almost looks like it has a side skirt, like it's
trying to be a fan car.
You know how the fan car is always going a little too low.
It looks like that on what is otherwise a huge behemoth of an SUV that I'm curious about
because the Armada does soldier on right now in that world with the SUVs like the Chevy
and the suburban and the Escalade and the Lincoln and that kind of stuff.
It's soldiering on in that world as an alt.
Talk about niches upon niches.
So here's a question.
What is the performance version, the performance branding of infinity?
It was, no, it was the black series.
What were they calling it for?
Signature series?
What was it when Vettel was driving for them for Red Bull and it was an infinity?
I've got about that.
Anyway, my point was they don't have one.
Not that we can think of right off the top of head.
There's no real like performance like Mercedes-AMG, BMW M4, you know, doesn't really have one.
So for a new QX80, you could ostensibly buy one for less.
This new kneesmo version will have more power and be better performing than the QX80 for
less money.
So why should the QX80 exist is my question.
Well, I mean, product planning questions have come up a few times with Nissan.
They've come up a few times.
Why do we, because this is going to be faster, ostensibly drive better, sportier, still
have a amount of space and luxury and tax, because what will happen is you prefer the
infinity styling, which I've called before as the infinity version of the Armada has looked
like a narwhale forever.
But they have the new one that the newly refreshed, I don't know how much better that would
look, but they have that one.
It's different.
You prefer the styling.
You want a slightly more luxury appointments and you don't like the Nissan brand.
It's a branding thing.
You prefer the branding of the quote unquote luxury brand.
It's still a Nissan.
It is still a Nissan.
Speaking of you just brought up AMG, did you see the AMG that got announced?
I did see the AMG, the AMG GTXX concept.
I have to, more power than a ZR1X.
It does, because of course it's electric and all power is all that matters.
I have to set the stage, because you have come down rightfully so on Mercedes up to
this point, because they had their EQ whatever, and all the EQ had this very bulbous styling.
And then you're right, they absolutely threw that out.
They were a sales disaster.
This is the restart of their electric performance, and it actually looks a little bit more like
a car, but I'm very curious of your thoughts.
This is concept only, but this is one of those moonshot concepts where they say this
is the direction we think we want to go, but very curious how it strikes you.
Here it is, the orange, Mercedes, orange GTXX, EV, 1340 horsepower, because you know
somebody's going to ask you, like, what will she do?
Because electric is going to do that easily, yeah.
I'm going to hurt the humans inside.
They're going to feel sick, and they're going to get out and barf.
It's going to be worse than any amusement park ride that you've ever been on.
Probably, yeah.
Now, there's small elements of Mercedes styling that I can find in here.
But for the most part, it's an exercise in drag coefficient, in aerodynamic efficiency.
Unfortunately, it's one tenth, sorry, yeah, one tenth as efficient, then the lucid air
that it's going after.
Okay.
So it's in the same ballpark, but nothing about this really screams Mercedes or a new design
direction from Mercedes.
It's really just an aerodynamic exercise.
I can't call this shape beautiful, but the lines are nice above the belt line.
You can see the hood shape.
You can see that nice backlight, the center section, the center line of the car, no rear
window, by the way.
Yeah, which, and that nice rear fender shape, but how everything is resolved from the belt
line to the ground, doesn't look special, unique, interesting, or anything other than
just needs to be there to enclose the car.
Well, and that was the thing with the EQ series, is all the EQ series were just bulbous form
ideas.
A dropped pizza.
Well, but they were like, you know, you put a drop of water in a wind tunnel and you
saw what it would form to you what there's our car shape.
This, that you already said it, start swapping badges on this.
This could be an aston.
It could be a Ferrari.
It could be a Lamborghini.
It could be a Porsche.
Infinity.
It could be an infinity.
It's sexy looking infinity.
It could be a Ferrari.
Look at the rear.
It could be a Ferrari.
This, this doesn't suggest Mercedes.
It does, it is more interestingly the EQ series, but if this is the new direction, I think
it just looks like a, a blending of a lot of other people's ideas, and I don't even
know design, but I'm just, I just keep imagining, like, I want a flip book of, of logos
on the front.
And we all just decide, what does this look the most like?
I could see, well, the Ferrari rear is just because of the circular tail lights, which
are a very much a throwback to old school kinds of styling on the latest iteration of the
hottest tech that we can put together in a car.
But you know what, on the inside, there is deconstructivism going on.
If you look inside, so you'll see the center console and you'll see all the things that
you interact with are very simple shapes.
The door pull in the door, and the actual armrest, it's, it's just a pole, just bolt it
in.
It looks nice and cool materials, but it's just a post bolted into the door to help you
shut the door.
It's just a leather pole to open it.
Sure.
And the air vents might as well just be hoses like they are in a race car.
They just happen to have a nice bezel surrounding them.
Which is going to be interesting when they try to actually apply super luxury to this concept.
Yes.
I don't feel like anything about this is Mercedes, unless we accept the fact that Mercedes
is going full aerodynamic efficiency and that anything with aerodynamic look, streamline
look to it is really the whole point of a Mercedes at this point.
And I think they've achieved that.
The wheel covers are actually aerodynamic as well, so they contribute to the efficiency.
But I can't say that I look at this and think, wow, is it beautiful and what a cool looking
Mercedes.
I mean, it's still a concept.
I agree.
I agree.
Speaking of concepts, I'm going to position us and move us to, wow, it is beautiful.
And that is the current Mazda got a bump this week, the Mazda Ionic SP.
This is a spectacular looking car.
Yes, it is.
I want one yesterday.
If it looks like this, I want one yesterday.
And also can I fit it because it didn't fit in the RX7.
But the idea is that this just got a bump this week.
I don't know if this is a real thing or not.
This feels like, right now it feels like internet hyped to me.
But it got a bump on all the news cycles this week that they really say it's coming now.
Now we'll see.
I'm only, I don't hate talking about concepts, but I'm only bringing it up because I really
do love the way this looks.
And I hope it is what it suggests itself to be, which is sensual, flowing, lightweight,
interesting, positioned above the Miata.
I like everything about what I'm hearing.
I just don't know if it's true.
We can hope.
We can hope.
Let's hope.
Continue on remaining in hope.
I mean, it still gets teased, so I guess, let's put it this way, Mazda has to do something
next.
Yes, something next to sell cars and has to happen.
It'll be this or it'll be something ugly.
Well, Mazda, Mazda avoids ugly pretty well, generally.
But Mazda doesn't really do ugly.
Yeah, but they need another sports car to line up to do.
80% there.
You know, and it probably, I'm sure this is going to be because they want to carry forward
the rotary because it's their science project and they cannot let it die.
And they should, but you know what this needs?
This needs to be big enough to take the straight six that they just made for their SUV.
Yes.
It needs to take the straight six in the front.
And now we've got something, but it'll probably be a rotary hybrid thing while they try
to what's going to happen here.
This is what here's my prediction, that it's going to have a rotary that drives the hybrid
system.
And I'm not making this up because this has already been rumored.
But just so they can say, see, we really have found a use for our rotary science project.
They keep trying so hard to make the rotary viable.
And it has been quite difficult to do that.
Last bit of news is a little bit sad.
Gordon Murray, legendary F1 car designer, the McLaren F1, the current cars from him, the T-33
and the T-50.
He is announced he has a soft agile cancer, which is scary.
I mean, he obviously is an older guy, but it's terrible news to get.
We wish him the best.
We hope that there is really good treatment coming, but that was kind of a shock announcement
that he's just done.
And I mean, he is, and I do not use this term lightly.
He is a genius.
Some of the stuff he's come up with is that total out of the box thinking where everybody
else is doing this and somebody goes and goes, I'm going to try this and it works.
He's done that his entire career.
He's a really iconic designer and engineer in cars, and I'm very curious to hit this
update.
I was sad to read this news, but it is a bit of news from him as well.
Yes.
We saw that he has undergone successful keyhole surgery at this point, and he caught it
early.
So we are wishing him recovery the best.
Gordon, we need you around, the automotive world needs you around for a long time.
Heck, the world needs you around for a long time.
So we're wishing you the best in recovery.
This is the test of the Reese's broadcast system.
If you're currently eating Reese's, this is just a test, continue living the dream.
If you aren't, oh boy, drop what you're doing, go get Reese's now.
Do not stay calm, push people out of the way.
That was just news.
We told you a longer podcast.
That was just, but you and I've been away for a while, there was news to catch up on.
Our topic Tuesday, there all going to be Tuesdays from here forward, but our topic for
this podcast.
Keep in mind, we got car to base coming, we've got car conclusions coming, we have your
questions coming.
There's a lot more coming on this podcast, but by the way, I like this use of the screen
real quick.
For those of you that can't see, we are playing photos of our past reviews on a screen
in the middle of the studio.
And right now it's showing me a GRID 6 versus the Cayman, but it's flipping through those.
And it's been reminding us of all the stuff we've done in the last 20 years, where the
reviews and there'll be more of those photos coming.
So that's really very cool.
Our topic for the day is the problem with Portia.
Not your Portia specifically, the brand at large, the problem with Portia.
And I'm sure we're going to get hate mail, but it's okay.
Our brands to discuss, and we thought we'd start here with Portia.
And this was a topic that you and I first thought of when we were driving the new 9-11
GTS T hybrid.
We started driving it and we started talking about the T hybrid.
It was the one that I have, the plug-in hybrid.
The T hybrid is their new split hybrid thing with the electric motor in the middle,
in the middle of the turbo, the whole craziness that is fantastic technology.
But it got us talking about where the 9-11 is and then that kind of branch out that we,
there were multiple meals when this conversation happened.
So we wanted to share it with you guys.
The problem with Portia because the sub headline is, has Portia lost their way?
Or is Portia missing obvious opportunities?
A big place that you and I both went is, and I'm going to take it on the nose here.
I'm going to act like the instigator here, even though I know you back me on a lot of this.
It's all good.
It's all good.
I think Portia has reached a place where the 9-11 is holding them back.
These are big words.
I know.
There's a ton of variants of the 9-11 words.
Because the 9-11 was carried forward in the 80s and you can watch our 50 years of
9-11 film we talk about at length because it was carried forward in the 80s and the 9-28
were supposed to be its replacement was killed and it's carried forward.
It has had to, but because of what the 9-11 is and it's beloved, it's the last rear-engine
car.
There are plenty of folks out there, journalists like crazy and a ton of car collectors
who, the minute they buy a Portia 9-11, they buy nothing else.
Nothing else matters.
All that matters is the 9-11 and I want all of those guys to drive all the mid engines
of the world because it's not just 9-11s, it feel really cool.
But anyway, there's a lot of cool things about the 9-11, but they had to keep it rear
engine.
They had to keep it that shape, but then they had to adhere by all of the changes in
people's expectations and regulations and safety to carry the 9-11 forward with all the
baggage that it has to have, which is must be rear-engine, must have cool light front
end steering, must be 2 plus 2, must have this shape.
That's the baggage, but now it also must be bigger, safer, faster, have all the latest
tech.
And what we've watched happen is the 9-11 has grown flat out too big and way too expensive,
and they have so many versions that now you have whole years worth of journalistic content
that just discusses them driving all the variants of the new 9-11 and talking about which
one is right for which person because there's like 20 variants.
And you can't make a car in the lineup above the 9-11, it has to be the fast one.
You have to end up with the GT3, or in this case they're going to make a new GT2, super
turbo, the turbo 9-11 with four wheel drive and all that kind of stuff is a world-beating
car every time it comes out.
So when they make their hypercar, their halo car, it has to be above the 9-11, but in such
limited supply, it doesn't actually limit the 9-11.
And then after it's been out, like look at the 9-18, or look at the career GT before
it.
Awesome cars, but made in such limited edition that, and shortly after they stop making
them, guess what happens?
The new 9-11 comes along and beats it on nerve-wrong time or speed or whatever.
Which is also always weird.
The 9-11.
It's cool, but weird.
So here's why I think the 9-11 is holding them back.
They're trying to make a 9-11 for people that have an image of what a 9-11 should be.
But the people that really want what a 9-11, I hate to say this, should feel like are
buying old ones.
That's what the 9-11 should feel like.
The 9-9 7 and before.
I'll go as far as the 9-9 7, because that is, in my opinion, the last truly great 9-11
size and chassis.
But I'm going to go all the way to singer.
Okay.
Singer?
Toothill.
What's the one that starts with the GM forgetting?
I have a list of 21.
You have a list.
Please give me the list of all the people that make the list.
Special 9-11.
Give me that list, and then I'll go continue my rant.
I'm so glad you said this, because we've had a lot of time to think about this.
We have.
We've been talking about a lot.
And you just identified they're smaller, they need to be smaller.
And that's the problem with the current 9-9 2.
Singer uses the 964.
It's too big and too heavy.
Yes.
I mean, the 9-2.
The current 9-11 being too big, too heavy.
Yes.
That car can't get bigger or heavier.
It just can't.
From here forward, we can't go bigger and heavier with it.
So what do you do?
You got to go backwards.
And that's why everybody loves these older ones.
So here's the list.
Please.
Singer vehicles.
Reimagined by singer.
That's a 964 9-11.
9-11 by Guntherworks.
Guntherworks.
That's who it's thinking of.
Yes.
Cage.
Automobile.
That is K-A-E-G-E.
Gambala.
You're right.
Yes.
Todd Hill.
Yes.
Roof.
R group.
Magnus Walker.
Yeah.
Theon design.
Theon design.
Rod Emory, even though he's doing more 356s, but he still will touch 9-11s.
But that's classic 9-11.
That's classic.
That's 3-9-11.
Correct.
It's even smaller.
Yeah, exactly.
Strat Porsche in Miami, which is ST-R-A-T. Strat Porsche.
Paul Stevens.
He's a well-known builder in the UK, so the PS AutoArt Speedster, the auto-active motor-sport
light-speed classic.
Oh, gosh.
RWB.
Oh, yeah.
The RSR project.
Yet a completely different car.
Yes.
There's two Kalmar cars.
The Kalmar in conjunction with Canapa design, and then just the Kalmar rebuild.
Lab 11 in Italy.
We saw the Lab 11 cars.
You're right.
Yes, huh?
Oil stain lab, HF 11, and the reason it's called HF 11, because it's half a 9-11, so HF.
Yeah, yeah.
And they've done their own car.
The new HF 11 is actually gorgeous, and I wanted it.
It's beautiful.
It's very creative.
It's very creative.
9-11s.
But the foundation and the thinking was from a 9-11, so rebuilding 9-11s.
Rossport Racing and Kelly Moss.
Remember, doing all the lift to the off-roaders, and that doesn't include all these single
custom builds.
That doesn't include one-off builders.
You've done it yourself.
You've had your own race shop building.
Lee Keen makes his rally cars.
There's a bunch of others.
Yeah.
I mean, he's done his kind of his own things.
Yeah.
He's a builder, but he's not, you know, more the mainstream necessarily.
There are fewer makers of Shelby Cobra replicas than there are 9-11 builders.
Rebuilders.
That's a shocking, said.
Resta-modders.
Outlaw builds.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you've totally hit on it, but here's where that takes my brain.
This tells me that the 9-11 is not what it should be.
Right.
And it also tells me, when you look at the prices of singers and guntherworks and these kind of things,
you can't touch any of these big builders for less than a half million dollars.
It's crazy.
And when Porsche sells their hypercar, 9-8-dee and Courage GT, that kind of stuff,
those typically are a million at most.
They're often like half million when they sell them MSRP.
So my point is, the buyers are out there to buy cars as expensive.
The people that really want a 9-11 experience are willing to spend a half million dollars
at least and not blink at years worth of waiting to get one from a manufacturer that isn't Porsche.
So the way they want the 9-11 to be.
But my point is, Porsche takes their engineering prowess, their build quality,
their ability to offer a warranty and parts and start selling essentially singers.
That's what the 9-11 becomes.
They sell singers and guntherworks.
It's all bespoke.
It's their Sundervunch special whistles.
That's the way you get a 9-11 now, because that market exists.
And then they allow whatever's above the Cayman to be something else.
I hate to say it this way.
It's what the 9-2-8 probably would have grown into.
It's that car because that's what the 9-11 is becoming more and more like.
It's a 9-2-8 with the engine in the wrong place.
It's really what it's becoming.
But the 9-11 is this thing they can't get past.
It's the baggage of the brand.
And this is the secondary thing.
You and I are me much more so than you.
You and I are way out on a limb and somebody's behind us with a saw.
Journalists are not allowed to critique Porsche.
There is a thing, and we've mentioned before, but I want to hit on it again.
We discovered it kind of by accident when we got into this business.
That every automotive journalist out there is fighting tooth and nail
and stabbing each other in the back and doing stuff behind people's backs
and trying to build the perfect Porsche version in order to get on Porsche's good side
to go on Porsche's trips.
And say all the right things to be able to get eligible to go on the Porsche trips
or get press cars, whatever it is.
You and I did 50 years in 9-11 in 2013 because we thought it was a cool idea for a film.
That was the beginning and the end.
And we pulled it together and thought everybody else was going to do what nobody else did.
We didn't get any kudos for that.
We didn't wind up on any list.
And that was also not the reason that we did it.
If you read most journalists take on a Porsche, especially in 9-11.
The sentence in there will be Porsche's done it again.
It's the best 9-11 ever.
Everybody else should just take a lesson from Porsche because they've done it again.
Most impressive 9-11.
No, no. The best 9-11s I'm putting out there are behind us.
The GT3 RS is a fantastic track car full stop, I agree.
However, the best 9-11 experience is behind us.
Porsche is making a different car now and they need to move on from that rear-engine configuration
and throw all of their engineering at making these world-beater cars that are great dailies.
And if you get the GT version, a great track car, but no one is willing to critique Porsche
because the journalists want the brass ring of, I got invited on the Porsche trip.
And Porsche, I will admit it, they throw great trips.
The journalists trip for Porsche are fantastic.
That's true.
The stuff they did for the Dakar and the race tracks they rent, there is no expense spared.
There are incredible trips.
There's a reason journalists fight for this, but you will notice you do not see critiques of Porsche's in mainstream journalism.
And I feel like everybody will have a conversation about the poor engineering of everybody else,
which you never hear like, Porsche, why do you do that?
Now admittedly, Porsche does fantastic engineering.
They do some incredible stuff.
But you never hear anybody come down on Porsche's engineering.
And I am not enough of an engineering to find the faults, but they got to be there.
They're not perfect, okay?
Okay.
But you never hear about it, but I will give you one.
The era from late 90s to early 2000s, IMS bearing, and the delaminating,
decunking that happens with those engines.
These are known issues.
Porsche went through a period of time where their finances were not in great shape
and they reused a lot of things.
And I think they cut corners and that happened.
Yes.
So that was Boxster, Cayman 9-11.
Those have known engine problems.
Also, the GT3 that came out with the 991, they replaced all the engines of the first run.
Yeah.
Okay, now here's my question.
I am warranties, and now those warranties are running out.
Now those cars are cheaper, and would you buy one?
And look, let me say this from two sides.
First off, most manufacturers you can think of have some sort of catastrophic thing
in their pantheon of their sports cars.
That is not unique to Porsche.
I'm not coming down on them as special for having done that.
What I am bringing up is why does this not get discussed?
You mentioned GR86, and all of you watching, all of you listening,
can list for me the reasons why you're not supposed to buy one because the engines are terrible.
You can mention E46 BMWs or lots of other BMWs.
And people will list for you all of the known engine problems.
You list Porsche and way, way down the list.
Somebody will be like, yeah, but there is the IMS bearing and the other thing
with the chunking of the end.
But it's so far down the list.
But it's forgiven instantly and it's forgiven instantly.
Yes.
And percentage wise, it's every bit as high or in some cases,
higher than some of these other engines issues we're talking about.
But it's Porsche.
It'll be fine.
Why?
Why?
And I'm just saying, I'm just asking for equality here.
Is all I'm saying, you're right.
I think I can identify and I have product planning for us to discuss some reasons
why the 911 is holding them back.
But also the product planning where they need to go from here.
Because the 992 is too big and too heavy.
Yes.
You can't get bigger and heavier for the 992.
It's not going to be the 993.
It can't be the 993.
They did not already.
When they decided to go completely not numeric order.
Is 994 available?
But then it's completely whacked and out of order.
It's already out of order.
It already, that ship sailed, buddy.
We went nine, sorry, I have to hit it again.
We went 996, 993, 996, 992.
And for as genius as these engineers are, I know they know numbers.
How did that not drive all of their OCD completely off a cliff?
How are we this far out of order?
Anyway, the 994, let's say.
Maybe that's what it'll be.
Yeah.
For the record, should anybody try to give me a 911?
Or should I win any contest where I win a 911?
I will happily accept.
I want a 911.
I want any of the 21 builders products that I've named.
I want one.
I would love to own one.
Yes is the answer.
I love Porsches.
I'm on the record saying that if you're going to buy a track car,
I've said it many times and I'll say it again.
If you want to buy a track car, the first thing on your list
should be current 992 GT3 RS.
And everything else is starting at like fourth.
The car's fantastic.
Yeah.
It's a fantastic track car.
There's no question they make great cars.
Sorry, go on.
Porsche love here.
But first of all, let's start at the top.
And that is the CEO of Porsche currently.
As of this recording, the gentleman's name is Oliver Bloom.
And I went digging.
We've heard his name.
Not only is he CEO of Porsche.
He is CEO of Volkswagen Group in its entirety.
This is a CEO of two brands,
even though they have a lot of history together.
And there was a lot of interconnected and related parts
way back in the day.
Sure, sure.
They've become two different brands with two different ethos
with two completely separate markets with the same CEO applying
what I believe is the same decision making and thinking
because how can you not?
How can you switch yourself as the CEO of one brand and think?
Sure.
Let's go all in and make the hypercar and do this
and Volkswagen.
Why do we need GTIs anymore?
Let's make an interesting non-compelling non-drivers kinds
of things, which is Volkswagen Group.
You know the same CEO for both companies.
And I don't know that this is the reason.
You've hit on a great thing because the reality
that I've mentioned before is 20 years ago,
just about everything Volkswagen made had some sort of,
it's far from Nougat.
It had some sort of kind of fun, kind of quirky, kind of interesting.
All of that got rounded off of Volkswagen.
And now Volkswagen's in general are just kind of bland.
Is Porsche following along behind?
Which is my question.
Now, I have a lot of respect for Oliver Bloom.
I've read his biography.
He's an engineer.
He has worked for Seat.
He's done Volkswagen Group stuff.
He's worked for Audi.
He's been in that company.
He knows all the inner workings.
He has made his way at the ladder.
Mad respect.
He's an engineer by training and a really good one
from one to understand.
Incredible guy.
But I disagree that you should be CEO for both companies
whose directions are split.
Whose focus is split?
Interesting.
And what other car company on the planet has their high-end
performance racing, lima winning, incredible luxury high-end sports cars,
the same CEO trying to do kind of basic transportation,
which is in the name, the car of the people.
Well, and you bring up a point, there's a lot of these conglomerates.
And there may be a figurehead, but each of the sub-brands has their own
kind of guy driving it.
So I think Oliver, you either need to take Porsche on
and forget Volkswagen.
But I think you should really take Volkswagen
and let somebody with a new vision
who hasn't been in the Volkswagen company group.
For a long time, maybe an outsider.
I know that's weird, especially in Volkswagen Group.
Yeah.
And outsider to come in and really shake things up
and bring this perspective.
Because I think that first of all is holding you back.
I think Porsche having the CEO of both
I don't know what decision making is going on.
But I feel like I felt a hint of it.
When I push the start button on the 992.2 GTS
and went, this feels like a Volkswagen button.
I bet it is a Volkswagen button.
Even if it's not, Volkswagen parts should not make their way
over to where the Porsche's are made.
They shouldn't even know each other exists,
but because of cost-cutting
and because this is a business for profit.
Yeah, of course.
Of course, decisions like that are going to be made
and I see this crossover.
And that was the first thing and I touched it.
We touched it.
You have to.
You can't avoid it.
You have to touch it.
Start the car.
I've been to like Volkswagen Group.
Oliver, what are you doing?
I've mentioned before that the base versions of the Cayman
have a golf quality interior.
Yes.
So I think that alone is,
and that just comes from a business making.
Of course.
Yes, yes, yes.
If there were a different CEO running Porsche,
you can bet that person.
Ooh, Volkswagen Group.
You can keep your stuff over here.
That's great for you.
We over here at Porsche do it differently.
Yes, we're under the same brand.
Yes, we're under the same glomerate.
But you know what?
We think differently.
We're going to do things differently.
We're Porsche for crying out loud.
Yeah.
So why doesn't Porsche want a piece of the market
that we identified?
They did that 993 project gold.
Yeah.
But that was a one off.
And they've done other special one off.
They've become special stuff for folks.
They want a piece of that.
And the answer is because all of the cars that we name
those builders is because they're lighter weight.
Every single one of them focuses on the lightest of the light.
And then people drive them and go,
this is automotive, Nirvana.
And I don't blame it.
And I want one of them.
I want all of them.
I actually thought,
would it be great to start a car collection?
And I own one of all of them?
That sounds really cheap.
Super cheap.
Super cheap.
Yeah.
And we drive all of them and compare all of them.
The minutia quattro.
We don't need to do this.
No.
But at least we start all the engines.
So all 21 of those builds with all the flat sixes all
sounding differently.
Oh my gosh.
But you know, but hang on.
And I know we have a Lotus on screen right now.
I'm not actually just saying this for Lotus reasons.
But anytime somebody drives a genuinely light car, Lotus.
But I'm also going to go GR86.
Yes, ST, Miata, Alpine A110, a genuinely light car
in the modern time.
Watch that person get out with a smile in their face.
I don't care the brand.
Yeah.
Light is where the magic is.
Yes.
And in general automakers,
because of electrification,
and because of all of the safety stuff,
and because of all the junk, if you will,
all the niceties we must have in our cars have just gone,
well, I guess way doesn't matter anymore.
And BMW has gone so far that BMW has got to the place where
they're defying physics.
But you climb into something genuinely light and you go,
this is what I'm missing.
And you haven't even realized it until you get in the light car
and you go, oh my gosh, this is awesome.
And then heavy power doesn't matter.
We're back to the ZR1 again.
Huge power doesn't matter.
Exactly.
And it naturally becomes engaging because you stripped away
all the heaviness that makes it dull.
That makes it just distant.
The Financial Times recently reports that Porsche's global sales slump
that was driven by a collapse in demand in China has been so severe
that North America is now its largest market.
Let's move to product planning with that thinking in mind
and taking into consideration everything that we've talked about.
Yeah.
Reset the 9-11.
Yes.
Agreed.
I am in no way saying, get rid of it.
It's a superb, amazing, the design is classic and timeless
and anytime you want, like the real, the vintage photo shoot.
Yeah, there's cool jags and Maserati's and old Ferraris
and then you ran at the Porsche and like, oh.
Yes.
Yes, it just works.
It's still so modern and timeless and excellent.
Make the next 9-11 smaller.
Whatever number we decide on for the chassis.
Yeah, okay.
Don't build an EV version of it.
Don't.
All trim levels and versions have added.
Do your thing.
Fine.
Maybe even pair those back.
I don't even think we need that many.
It's ridiculous.
Make a gas-powered Cayman.
Yeah.
Mid-engine for street fun and GT4 class eligible racing.
And an EV Cayman, if you insist, if you keep wanting to do this EV Cayman.
That's the question nobody asked.
Yeah, very curious to see what the response to that is.
Ferrari actually announced this week that they're pushing back their next full EV car
because they're realizing there's no market for it.
And I think this is Porsche's real problem with the new EV Cayman.
We don't know.
It's not out yet.
But I think they're releasing that into a market where there's no buyers.
Bring back the Carrera GT.
But bring it back at the size of the McLaren 750 or maybe the Artura.
Okay.
So mid-engine price similarly.
So this size could fit easily into the GT3 class racing.
We're going smaller with a 9.11 and we're not doing racing activities with it anymore.
It doesn't mean it means the GT3 version of it doesn't need to exist anymore.
It's smaller.
It's going after all the other builders, the brands, the rest of motors, the outlaws.
So put a V8 into that.
Okay.
And this new flagship size from Porsche while the 9.11 again gets smaller and lighter.
So we've got two mid-engens.
Cayman size and Carrera GT size.
And those can go into the GT class racing respectively.
The 9.11 exists over here still smaller, lighter.
Well, that's news.
That causes sales.
That brings up your sales slump.
It's back to the thing that everybody craves for on the planet, which is while these builders exist.
That's news.
That's new sales, Porsche.
You know what just struck me as you've talked about this.
This is actually what Mazda has done with the Miata.
Imagine if Mazda had done with the Miata, what the 9.11 has done since the late early 90s
when the 9.11 came out.
Imagine how big the Miata would be now.
The Miata doesn't match anything else in Mazda's lineup.
They make a Miata to be a Miata.
It doesn't weigh much.
It's small.
It's the great defining thing because there's two points.
When you think Mazda,
Miata is a key element of Mazda's existence as a brand in the same way that 9.11 is.
But the Miata is defiantly different than the regulations and the size and the weight and the whole thing.
Why can't the 9.11 be that?
It has to be part of the brand.
Why can't it be defiant, small?
The 9.11 that everybody is now paying a half million or millions of dollars to get the old version.
Make the new version of that in the same way that the N.D. Miata is much closer to the N.A. than the N.C. was.
Be defiantly different with the stuff people liked from the past with the 9.11.
And I love what you're saying.
Make a bigger mid engine, a smaller mid engine.
And then you and I've talked about forever.
Where is the cheaper Porsche?
Probably never going to happen.
But where is the cheaper Porsche?
Maybe 17...
The 356 could come back.
But if we're making a smaller lighter 9.11 that is on the more expensive level, bring the 9.12 back.
And that's there as the small...
You're still using those.
Amortize your car.
We go.
Sure.
And then those are the less expensive.
You still get maybe a flat six.
But it's not as crazy power or maybe as nice or higher performing as the smaller 9.11.
We got to go back to smaller from here.
Because if we keep going, the next super duper car, Porsche, whatever it is.
You've called it the Mission X right now.
But right now I'm hearing it might not even be an EV.
Even though it's been introduced in concept form as EV only.
It is amazing.
We saw it at Ren Sport two years ago.
Very cool looking.
Incredible car.
Maybe it's another hybrid.
But ask Matei Riematch how his EV hyper car sales are doing.
Yes.
And for in Batista, which is also a Matei creation.
Yeah.
How are those doing all EV pure hyper car?
Because at that level with all the power, how do you make the 992.2 Mantae Racing GT3 RS even faster than it already is?
Where do we go from here?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
More power will now you've created a ZR1X.
What do we create?
The GT3 RSX or all wheel drive.
The RSX RSR edition by Mantae Racing.
What do we stuff?
Oh.
Oh.
Short of a cup car.
You can go faster.
A cup car.
Of course.
But race cars are always fast in the street cars.
That's the other great, great weird lie about all this.
And we prefer street cars.
And hooked on driving.
We walk in street cars.
Yes.
But if you really want just fast on the track, you buy a race car.
I guess at this point with this new T hybrid technology.
Sure.
In the 911 Turbo, you can put two of them.
Of course you could.
Yes.
I don't know how much horsepower builders have gotten.
It's got to have a comma in it.
Plus horsepower out of a six cylinder, a flat six, which is astounding.
And what's the shelf life of that engine?
Does it come with a warranty?
It comes with a pit crew.
We're not sure.
But what if the new Turbo has the T hybrid twin T hybrid electric turbochargers?
Is that the T T hybrid?
And will GT class rules allow that technology into the next GT3 and GT3 RS?
Because that's how you make it faster.
But they still haven't gotten smaller and lighter.
And I say all this.
Still wanting the current GT3 RS or GT3.
I still want one.
I just want one.
You just, I phenomenal.
Want it?
Yeah.
Phenomenal track.
They are incredible cars.
But what if they were smaller and lighter?
And that Carrera GT came back?
And that's what you go GT3 racing with.
And the 911 can exist.
And it's news.
And Porsche, this gives you such news that you can bring the 912 back.
And it gets you out of your sales slump.
Theoretically, I mean, because people will still want it.
A smaller, lighter 911.
People will want that more than a newer, bigger, heavier one.
And based on what we're seeing with all of these builders, you identified.
Everybody's going, everybody that has the money goes backwards.
And this kind of leads me to another thing that I want to bring up.
And I, I'm going to get letters for this.
I know I am.
When you and I made 50 years in 911.
Yeah.
Okay.
12 years ago now, which is crazy.
All right.
That was 2013.
I was very struck by the fact that we found all those 911s from private owners.
And also struck by the fact that you and I have probably driven in spite of my vitriol.
More 911s from more eras than almost any other car.
That almost any journalist working right now.
Crazy to think about it.
Because we went back to 1969 and drove them forward or 67 and drove them forward.
It's like seven kinds of versions.
Yeah.
The short wheel base, the long wheel base, you name it.
I, we can talk 911.
And we've driven them back to back to back to back, which is something that generally
no automotive journalist that is currently praising Porsche can say.
So we have a lot of experience.
And there's tons of the old ones that I really loved.
Okay.
At the time, I was very struck by something.
Because we were also trying to put a Ferrari film together.
And at the time, all of the 911 owners loved their 911s.
But we're always like heads on a swivel for other interesting cars.
And they were welcoming.
And they were warm.
And they were very fascinated by their 911.
Could tell you all the stuff.
But they could also tell you the three or four other cars that they were really intrigued by.
The Ferrari folks were, please go away.
And Ferrari is all that matters.
Are Porsche owners becoming like Ferrari?
And my thinking is yes.
Because the more I talk to 911 owners now, they wanted a 911 where they finally got into a 911.
And no other cars matter.
Oh, I used to own those and used to own these.
But you know what?
I just, I'm just going to buy Porsche's from now on.
I want to buy old Porsche's and new Porsche's and old 911's and new 911's.
And I used to own those other things.
And I don't care about any of them anymore.
They can't find anything worthwhile about anything that isn't some sort of 911 variant.
Unless, and look, I own Kayans.
Unless they buy a Kayan or a Macon for their wife.
I have met more locked in, uninterested in anybody else.
Not willing to talk beyond the 911.
911 owners in the last few years that anybody we talked to when we shot 50 years 911.
And that, to me, was the Ferrari owner thing.
Now, maybe Ferrari owners are now like, hey, let's drive everything.
I don't know.
But I'm watching these rots happen with journalists, with car owners, with cars and coffee,
where we discovered that 911 and I guess we're done now.
And there's a lot of cool cars out there.
And they drive different and they're fast things.
One of my favorite things we take are road trips of people.
These people just swap keys.
And you hear people talking about what I love at dinner.
Somebody's talking about some car that they never even thought they'd sit in.
And now they're like, I had no idea those were so great.
And it's some mundane thing that they was not on their radar.
And the folks with the 911s on our trips drive other things and go, those are really great.
But a lot of 911 owners, your typical cars and coffee, I got a 911 and now all I want is just a bigger, better 911.
When we shot the film, I noted that it seemed like all the Porsche owners were putting miles on their cars
and driving them and driving the wheels off them and sharing them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel, I feel what you're talking about more and more.
Now, I can't say that Ferrari's gone the other way because Ferrari's always been like.
They have it.
But yeah.
Spec a dust.
Got my uneven car.
Get it off.
Yeah.
Now, that's not every Ferrari owner.
There's exception to everything we're saying.
We want to get Nuggett drive the wheels off their car and they want to drive into the dirt.
Everything we're saying.
I'm aware of this.
I know there are guys that buy 911 GT3 RS's ring them out, destroy them against a guardrail.
Buy another one and they're tracking the next weekend.
Are those guys?
They're all those guys.
They're all those guys.
Absolutely.
There are those folks.
That's the exception.
Yeah.
But I'm feeling what you're identifying and I don't want that to happen.
Agreed?
Now, when we were driving all the cars on this trip on this recent big tour road track.
Yeah.
There were a few people and you know who you are, who drove my GT4 and the reason I bought it is because I feel like it's the last of the last of the last.
Will we get another Cayman?
That size that, I don't know.
And it's a great car.
So one of the reasons I got it is because I feel like I'm going to have it forever.
I love it.
But there were people who I think didn't like it.
And I had to give them permission to say it's okay to not like this car.
It's not for me.
Yeah.
It's a hardcore version.
It is for sure.
It's a great car though.
If you don't like it, that's perfectly okay.
Know is a perfectly acceptable answer.
You can say no, I don't like that.
I'm not going to be offended because there are so many great cars out there.
Yeah, yeah.
Find the one that is your jam.
Yes, yes, yes.
Do relate to and you do have that feeling.
I have that feeling.
And I know it's not for everybody.
And by all of this, we're not saying, well, you must like Porsche's.
Because, well, because, because they're the best.
Because Cayman's too.
Like, you have my permission to not like my car after you drove it.
Yeah.
And I think people didn't.
We're kind of gone.
Yeah, maybe I just need more time to like come to grips with the car.
Like, no, you don't.
If you don't like it, you know right away.
That happened.
That happened with my amera too.
There people are just like, I just don't get it.
And I was like, I understand.
I totally get that it may not be for you.
And then there are other cars people climb and be like, I love those now.
And I never thought it was great.
That I want that for everybody driving.
And that's the other thing I also want to understand.
I know I especially, but both of us, we've spent quite a bit of time here talking about Porsche.
And we've been hard on Porsche.
Yeah.
And it probably is shocking to many people because people aren't hard on Porsche.
And I have to actually wrap this up by saying we are talking about cars
that across the board are genuinely excellent to drive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not like Porsche's making stuff that's not interesting to drive and doesn't drive well.
And then we have all these problems.
We're talking about the stuff that doesn't get discussed on the basis of the fact that dang it.
They made another good to drive car.
And I'm curious about the EV came and embarked.
My hopes are not high, but I'm curious.
Yes.
And look, I own two kians of two generations.
You've had a string of Porsche's and continue to own them.
They make great vehicles.
Yeah.
But they are not immune to problems.
And to, I guess, how do I put it?
Reputation issues with owners and vibe.
I just want, you and I talk about a lot.
We want everybody, everybody listening, everybody watching.
We want you to love the car you drive.
Find the car that just makes you go, I can't believe I have that.
And buy that car.
Every time you climb out of it, you're like, I have that car.
I can't even believe it.
I don't care if that cost you 10 grand or 10 million.
I want you to have that feeling.
And there are so many brands out there.
And people, I got a little bit of money.
I guess I'm just going to buy a 911.
There's other ones.
We're going to get letters.
But I want a 911.
We're going to get letters.
But that's me.
I speak for me.
This episode is brought to you by Diet Coke.
You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh.
An ice cold diet coke isn't just a break.
It's your chance to catch your breath
and save for a moment that's all about you.
Always refreshing, still the same great taste.
Diet Coke.
Make time for you time.
So that was just the topic Tuesday.
We still have car debates, car conclusions,
and your questions coming up.
I also have a minor movie rant.
So we'll get there.
Let's do it.
The debate number one comes from our board member Phil.
Phil M writes to us asking how, how do they move on?
Hmm.
Phil's writing this car debate on behalf of his M.O.F.
fiancee.
Congratulations.
But she has recently been promoted to Pope of Finance.
Never heard of that before.
But all right.
Minister of Finance is now Pope of Finance.
Apparently she does a really, really good job managing their money
to get them into cool cars.
Christine, thank you for listening.
Phil, thank you for writing.
They're in Northridge, California, and Christine and Phil
have been together since 2017.
He says it was a refreshing new beginning for both of us.
And part of that beginning was her moving on
from the mid 2000's Corolla that her parents gave her.
Okay.
That year in 2017 Phil was driving a 2009 Honda Fit automatic,
which he bought brand new and loved.
And that influenced Christine to car shop in the hatch market.
After much research, she settled on a used 2015 Honda Fit EXCVT,
which she bought with the cash.
She had been saving up for years.
But the struggle was saving that amount of money to buy a car
that she wanted led to her attachment to the vehicle almost
immediately.
With a Fit fleet, they proceeded to enjoy a fund relationship.
Two fits in the fleet.
The Fit fleet.
Got it.
Okay.
Frequent trips to Las Vegas for his bowling tournaments,
enjoying scenic drives on PCH.
They developed basing wrenching skills.
And she was always happy with her car.
The memories continued to pile up.
Phil drew a touch too.
And she was finishing her post grad study to become a clinical
laboratory scientist and settling into her new role as the M.O.F.
So she's one of the really smart ones.
I love it.
That's great.
Over the next year she watched in contentment as Phil's best friend
Edward taught him to drive manual transmission.
Then he discovered this show through the four generations of the Miata
piece.
He bought an ND1 Miata RF.
Cool.
Very cool.
This was his first rear wheel drive dedicated sports car.
And she actually loved sitting with him.
They were actually listened to the car debate sometimes and talk about it.
They both just kind of picked up the ability to just drive and have a fun car.
So he was able to sell his 2009 Honda Fit bringing them down to two cars.
His Miata and her fit.
It was fantastic.
He was able because of her help.
This is why she's Pope of finance, by the way.
She was able to figure out their finances well enough that he was able to move on
from the RF to a GR86 in 2022.
And he actually really liked that, but something about that car.
He got into two wrecks with it.
And was like, okay, this car isn't working in for some reason.
It's not working for me.
So he moved on from the GR86, which was hard for him.
But he got a new ND3 Miata in December of last year.
He is in love with that.
But here's the twist.
As of very recently.
The Pope of finance was in a wreck in her Honda Fit.
They were hit by a 2025 Ram 1500 pickup, which just picture this real quickly.
Big truck.
That's a big truck.
And the Honda Fit is not a big car.
Yes.
Who lost?
Sadly, Christine was ambulance away from the scene, but that was mostly a check, thankfully.
She is fine.
But the hatch was essentially decimated by a massive truck.
You'll be unsurprised to hear.
It's total.
It's done.
It was taken from them.
She still feels sadness.
Like they both kind of feel like they lost a member of the family.
This car has been such a thing.
And now it is gone.
It's dead.
In fact, Phil's gone to see it since.
And it was like emotionally hard for him to see how damaged the car was.
And no, they'll never get it back, which brings us to a combination kind of topic Tuesday.
Car debate question.
How do they move on?
And what do they move on to?
They have sadness and nostalgia about losing this car.
They love hatches because they're small.
But they so they need that.
But they're also just in mourning.
Yeah, Phil writes that these emotions are clouding their judgments in deciding on a replacement car.
They both love hatches because they're small.
They do the cost car runs, but he says from this experience, Phil insists the next car have the latest modern safety tech like blind spot monitoring.
Hmm.
Even though maybe it's less important to Christine, but he definitely cares for her obviously so much.
So the budget without any insurance money, $20,000, Paul Limitator of 25 grand.
Okay.
Christine is four foot 11.
So it's got to be a small car, preferably a hatch, not a deal breaker if it's not.
Needs to be automatic because he doesn't want to daily in LA in a manual, which of course absolutely agreed.
Low maintenance.
They are JDM enthusiasts.
Relatively gas efficient.
No fiates.
Don't worry.
Decent handling apple car play new safety tech and no leather seats.
Christine hates them.
Interesting.
He says he stumped.
They usually configure something out.
He never writes car debates.
Phil, thank you for writing.
This is really gracious.
Oh, thank you.
You and Christine.
It's cool to hear from you.
First off, I just want to touch on.
We've talked before about when a car gets taken from you.
You're not done with it yet.
And a lot of times we say you need to get another one.
But it sounds like you need to get something newer as well.
So we're probably going to leave the fit behind.
I want to I want to give you permission.
Not that I have that right.
But I'm just saying I want to speak it.
Take the time to grieve.
Grieve about the fact that you lost this car.
Also, please don't require this next car to have that deep connection that the fit did.
Go get a car because you need a car.
Go to car that meets your needs.
It might go.
But if it does, it's going to take a while.
Allow the next car to be car that meets your needs.
If you fall desperately in love with it, bonus.
If you have it a year or two when you're like this isn't right, that's okay.
You've had this is my wife's Jeep Wrangler experience.
She will tell you in one moment she'd like to have another one.
It's her favorite car she's ever owned.
She loved it.
All the great memories and all the stuff.
But then when she kind of sits for a second, she realizes that's not right for her life right now.
And she's okay with that.
She loves having a cayenne because it's better for what she needs right now.
But if you like start talking cars with my wife, she'll wind up on Jeep Wrangler
as the greatest thing ever.
And you'll be like, why don't you own one?
So you can recognize this.
Yes.
So you can have this experience you have with the fit.
You can grieve that experience.
But don't drag that into the next car experience.
That's the main thing I want to say to you because we talk about options.
Autotemps.com slash every day.
I went looking started with a 2019 Toyota Corolla Hatch XSE.
Those are good.
The problem, Phil.
Christine is.
Toyota is soon to release the 2026 Corolla Hatchback FX in that really cool orange with the white wheels.
True.
The orange sickle car.
Yeah, but you can get the great blue if you get a used one.
You can get.
Yeah, you're right.
The great blue.
Just saying there's updates on the 2026.
It's more money.
But I love that searing blue.
It's fantastic on the hatch XSE.
I thought of the Mazda 3 Turbo automatic and really wonderful to drive.
An excellent car.
Hatch small.
I think you guys would really love it.
Plus you already know that you like Mazda's.
True.
Yeah, yeah.
Just saying Mazda 3 Turbo.
ND3 Miata.
Be a sweet looking garage.
Highly recommend Mazda 3 Turbo's easily within your budget.
I veered off into thinking about Mini Cooper S's and the 2022 Hyundai Kona N.
Not the N line.
There's a lot of N lines.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you got to get.
Yeah, got to be the N.
That is a fun car on a medical DCT only as well.
Fast faster and quicker than it should be.
I mean, it's weird because you and I are an SUV people.
It's a lifted hatch.
It's a great little car.
It's really working for Christine.
I do.
I totally agree.
Yeah, yeah.
But I'm really pushing on you.
Hyundai Veloster N.
Ooh.
For your budget 20 grand, 20k less than that.
Yeah, I get a used Veloster N.
I mean, does she want something that hot?
That's really cool.
Those are awesome.
I mean, great to drive.
You can choose your transmission.
You've got such unique styling.
The latest, the last version of Veloster N.
Small, cool, really fun to drive.
I like it.
That's good.
And that would give you a nice, you know, rear-wheel drive from rear-wheel drive.
It's still used fun.
Yeah.
It's just quirky and fun.
And I think that's what you need to move on.
Just something different fun.
That's good.
Of course.
You went for my choices.
That's excellent.
You went for more fun, actually, Phil Christine.
That is the more fun version.
What I'm going to do is not as fun.
It's a little more practical.
But those are excellent.
I really like that.
I think you need to look at whatever you can get for your budget
of the current generation Honda Civic.
It doesn't matter which model we've driven.
Every one of the current Honda Civic, that is just a fundamentally great chassis.
It is not a large car exterior, but it has a ton of space.
You can get it hatch or sedan.
We've driven hybrid.
We've driven the base touring with the CVT.
We've driven, of course, the Civic Type R and the SI.
Every version we've driven is just competitive and excellent to drive in its class.
So the current Honda Civic, once you look at that,
I have to bring this up because the Honda Fit has become essentially the HRV.
And we drove it.
It's true.
And we liked it.
It's underpowered, but it is straightforward, simple, well built and competent.
It is just...
Watch our test drive on.
That's good.
We drove it and we're just like, there's nothing wrong here.
It's the Civic platform, right?
It's not...
Exactly.
It's not super compelling.
Everyone must have one of these, but we got in it.
We're just like, there's nothing wrong with this.
HRV Type R.
Sure.
So it's not very powerful, but I don't think you need that.
If you're looking for a commute car, that is the fit moved forward in time.
So I do wonder about that car in that regard, the HRV.
It's not for everybody, but I think it might work for you, Christine.
The current Prius.
Drive it.
Drive it.
That is a cool car.
I've got the Prius.
It's got a hatch.
It's quite.
It commuting is what it does.
It's great.
That's what it's best for.
Yeah.
That's what you need it for.
It looks great.
And it looks phenomenal.
And if it doesn't drive interestingly enough for you, Phil,
and I do understand that we did wheels and tires and it transformed the car just that.
And we didn't lose much on miles per gallon.
Watch that series that we did.
So current Prius is actually, I have two wild cards because I don't know that they're right.
One is the Mini Cooper that you brought up.
I was waffling about that.
That's the personality that you want.
Yeah.
Okay.
The fit has a surprising amount of personality that the Mini Cooper has good personality.
There might not be maintenance that you want, because now we're moved away from Japanese cars.
But it is interesting.
And then the other one, it could also fit your life in the same way the Prius does.
Chevy Bolt.
We're talking about an LA commute car.
It's a hatch.
It's easy to use.
It gets great range.
It is kind of fun to easily for what it is.
It's interesting and fun.
Look, it's not.
It's not a fun carful stop, but it is a well engineered good dynamic hatch that happens to be an EV.
A little bit of a wild card there, but I think it's worth bringing up as well.
Christine, we're very glad you're okay.
Yes.
Thank you for writing, Phil.
Really appreciate it.
Happy hunting.
Let us know what you get.
Right to us at car conclusion.
EverydayDriverTV at gmail.com.
Top Tuesday's car conclusions.
Car debates.
Moving on to car bait.
Car debate number two.
We are putting down one heck of a podcast here.
We're thoroughly enjoying ourselves.
This is awesome.
Michael S. writes his wife needs her first car.
She's been living in the city most of her life, so she's barely touched a car since she first learned how to drive.
Wow.
Life changes mean they're looking to get her a commute car that will help her learn driving dynamics.
But she needs something appropriate to show up to her job with.
She's a fairly visible person in a community that won't appreciate something particularly playful or out of the norm,
which means a BRZ86 won't be taken very well.
Sports cars, luxury cars.
Look at me cars.
No, Aston Vantage.
No.
Probably not.
I mean, they're convertible.
Who doesn't like an Aston convertible?
But no, seriously.
The reality here is.
About Alcat powered something.
Cars that are notice me are wrong here.
Michael says roads.
The commute will be 15 to 20 minutes of local roads.
Whether he says no happens in this area of the country.
They're in looks like New York.
So they're halfway between New York City and upstate New York.
Says winter tires can probably address most things.
But the roads can be narrow with unforgiving shoulders.
Okay.
We have experienced that at night.
Yes, we have.
It was dark.
It was super dark around why it's going on.
Yeah.
Michael drives a BRZ, which is really small when they go somewhere for a few days.
Plus they're planning for a family.
So something that could be a family car is a plus.
Can I stop and rant here right now and buy the car for where you are?
Not where you think you're going to be.
That was coming.
You can sell the car.
You're right.
You can also hear.
Here's a thing.
But when you get pregnant, you're still nine months away from having the child.
You're right.
You're almost a year away.
Okay.
When a couple says we're trying, you check in next year to see if they succeeded.
Okay.
We're that far away.
You could sell the car during that period.
But you know what else you could do?
You could bring the child home because they're really little when they first start.
You could bring a home in a car that's not right for when they get big.
And you could buy a car later.
Anyway, sorry.
I'm done now.
Michael says the budget is about 50.
They can get something reliable that they won't need a noticeable land on their budget for the car needed stuff.
If they need to push 20 K to make that happen, they'll try.
I'm going to try past that.
Of course you are.
Ideally, something they won't care too much if a fender gets scratched in the first years of real driving experience.
They want an automatic transmission.
No Volkswagen or German cars.
I love how you just Volkswagen or German cars.
They're all about the same because Volkswagen owns Porsche.
A lot.
Audi.
Say it.
A lot of German.
Yeah.
Anyway, moving on.
Yes.
Honda seats seem to hurt Michael's back.
So no Honda's.
All right.
This will be the family car.
And we were helpful, apparently, in pushing Michael towards his BRZ, which he loves.
Glad you like it.
That's phenomenal.
What suggestions do we have for his wife?
Also, thinking about the Mazda 3.
But you know what?
They make it in a sedan, which looks professional and smart and more expensive than it is.
I agree with that.
Yes.
That's good.
I have the hatch on there too.
What are they?
Sure.
Fun and mentally good dynamics on those cars.
Yes.
Excellent to drive.
Feels luxurious.
But nobody's going to go, oh my gosh, you drive a Mazda.
And look down there and I was like, we're paying you too much.
Exactly.
You're way too flashy to drive a Mazda.
You're having too much fun over there.
That's fine.
You've got the BRZ.
He's got the BRZ.
Yeah, love it.
Mazda 3.
Man, those are great.
We compared that against the Mercedes.
The A-Class.
Yeah, we did.
Much less money.
Still.
Surprisingly.
Very, very, very excellent.
Yeah, great to drive.
And then I thought of this other choice.
It's called the Corolla Cross Hybrid.
Look at you.
Interesting.
Okay.
But I restrain myself because if we're going to Corolla Cross Hybrid, the only reason I would
suggest that is to stay within your budget.
If we're going to go out of your budget.
Which we are, apparently.
Yeah.
We haven't even driven this car yet, but we have seen it up close in person.
This is the new 2026 Toyota RAV4.
The updated one is probably worth looking at.
It's the right size.
It meets every qualification.
It's probably going to be decent to drive.
Probably, yeah.
You can get the sport version.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
You could.
It could be around 2026 RAV4.
And that is the only reason to buy new.
The size, it's great.
RAV4.
The new one, the brand brand.
That's not so many.
Stylings excellent, fun, cool, we haven't driven it.
And I know it's going to be excellent.
You blew out the budget but I do like it but in addition to the models to three, I have
another idea and then I have what I actually think is is your car, Michael Freo and your wife.
We.
The other idea I have for is what is in your budget from the Volvo 60 lineup, the S in order to
from the Volvo 60 lineup, the S60 V60 XC60.
That's the sedan, wagon, or SUV of the 60 size, okay?
They make sizes of cars.
There's the, there used to be the 40, 60, 90.
Anyway, they're all gonna be a little bit used
because to get them to your budget,
but the seats in Volvo's are superb.
The safety tech is awesome.
Yeah.
They feel luxurious, they drive well,
and nobody looks at a Volvo and goes,
oh my gosh, you're driving way too much.
It's a Volvo, it's fine.
It's fine.
Do you think in the 60s?
I think the 60s.
But aren't those too much?
Well, but they're gonna get used.
They're gonna be used once.
Even used?
Can you do 21?
I'm sure you can.
You can go back far enough that you can get all of those
in the mid 20 range.
That's absolutely possible.
But I really think the answer,
because I thought about this, upstate New York,
all weather needs to be straightforward to drive
not too big, protecting her as a driver
who hasn't driven much.
Maybe it gets dinged, we don't worry about it.
Subaru cross trek.
That's the answer.
The answer is Subaru cross trek.
All wheel drive, you can take it down any back road.
It gets dinged in the winter, nobody cares.
It's a Subaru, nobody's going, wow, that's ostentatious.
It's a Subaru, here's the thing.
You can get the crazy orange Subaru cross trek
and there's still not gonna judge that.
It's a Subaru cross trek.
It's true, and that's true.
That is everything you wanted to be.
In fact, my only critique on it, Michael,
my only critique on it, Michael,
might be the fact that I actually think
Subaru's are so safety conscious
they can sometimes overly stress out a stressed driver
because they are so,
so you have to turn some stuff off
to kind of calm the car down.
Like, I know I'm nervous, but you car'd be less nervous,
okay, that does help.
But I think Subaru cross trek gets it done
and we're finished.
That's really good, Michael, thank you for writing.
Car conclusion, incoming, if you haven't already
bought something, we're very curious to hear
what you think.
We're gonna do car conclusions
with every podcast going forward helps us meter them out.
We'd like to do it in the rants.
Well, obviously we're ranting quite a bit on this one.
The car debates, the car conclusions as well.
There's so much going on.
All right, car conclusion number one,
from Colin Cutler, who has been on Utah meetups with us.
He's heavily involved in our discord.
He's one of our patrons.
Thank you, Colin, for being involved so long.
Well, he writes to us a car conclusion.
They had their second child.
He and his wife had their second child
in December 2024.
He wanted a car with back seats.
And in 2021, he had bought a Z4.
I think we might have influenced that decision.
We definitely did, yes.
But at this point, they've made their two car garage
of his O3 Z4 and his wife's 2014 Passat TDI work well
in their life.
So they've got their three-year-old daughter
for errands in the Z4.
She's been sitting shotguns.
That's love it.
It's great. It's fantastic.
Of course, Colin says we should get a fun car with back seats.
Then he can take the entire family.
And ever since their first kid was born,
his wife has rarely been in the Z4.
Originally, Colin was debating a Mustang GT,
Camaro SS1LE, or some other 2 plus 2, maybe a hot hatch,
like a Focus RS.
Sure, sure.
Not sure what he would have ended up with,
but he said those are all expensive at 25,000 plus,
due to price the Z4 replacement
always seemed in the distant future.
In addition, his wife runs her business from home,
takes care of the kids.
He has no immediate need to pick up both kids at once.
So his car shopping has been laid back.
This is why you put this in here.
I'm reading along and I got to this.
It's like we're talking about this.
We are talking about this because Colin,
doing what we all do, searching for cars
when you kind of need a car,
don't really need a car,
shouldn't he be shopping for a car?
He was scrolling along on Facebook Marketplace
and saw a special edition, wait for it.
Sub, nine, three wagon.
Listed in a wagon group,
because of course we're wagon people, right?
He had no idea it existed.
So he just shared it with a close friend
that's only everyday driver discord.
Just like, isn't this cool?
And that person freaked.
I don't even know what that was.
That person freaked.
And they said, you must call this seller right now.
So Colin's like, oh, okay, apparently it's cool.
He calls the seller and in classic sob fashion.
The seller could not stop talking about how unique this car was.
And so the next day, Colin found himself sending a security
deposit by a plane ticket to buy this car side unseen.
The car is an 08,
Sub, nine, three turbo X sport comedy with the six-speed manual.
That is a very rare car.
He goes into just how rare.
Manual all-wheel drive,
turbo 2.8 liter V6 sport trim wagon.
The turbo X was a single year special edition
commemorating 30 years of sob turbo charging cars,
208 horsepower, 295 pound foot pounds of torque,
one inch lower suspension,
tri-spoke wheels,
color turbo boost gauge that harkens back to the old 900 turbos,
other stuff too.
They viewed an all-wheel drive system
which has an LSD capable of spending 80% of the power
of the rear wheels like a Focus RS or a Golf R.
But wait, there's more because this seller also told him.
Doesn't Daniel have one of these?
He does.
Okay, we'll get back to that.
Yes, he does have a sport comedy.
The seller did tell him all of the follow.
You can see why Colin got convinced.
There were 600 turbo X's brought to the US
of that 600 to 125 were wagons.
And of those wagons, only 45 were manual.
This is the kind of stuff Colin don't do this.
This is the kind of stuff that winds up on a laminated board
besides your car at cars and coffee.
Do not do this.
This is the kind of stuff that comes up.
Please come talk to me about my car.
Read the laminated board.
And then you buy the little car that's the version
of your car that sits on top of the car.
Ah, okay.
The takeaway here is Colin,
you found a very rare cool wagon.
That's a sob.
But it is a black hole of sucking you into sobdom.
Please go on Paul.
Although he says this is a GM platform.
So parts aren't as difficult to find as Colin originally thought.
He'll fit into the sob ownership type
because he is spending hours cross-referencing sob parts
to GM parts or sourcing difficult parts.
But it's the sob community.
And that's what my brother in law, Daniel loves.
He loves the community and they're very vocal
and they're involved in each other's lives.
And they talk about who in the family has the sport
comedy?
They have one, don't they?
Daniel's is the sport comedy.
Nico has the nine, five, also wagon.
It's an arrow wagon.
Also very rare.
It's got the slide out picnic table and everything.
That's what I was looking at.
None of them ever had.
Okay.
And then they've got the Sven,
which is the 93, 900 turbo convertible.
So we're actually saying that this podcast
knows two of the total 45 manual sport
combs in the world.
Wow.
Okay.
You know, I'm going to put that on a plaque
to put beside our podcast.
My sister Julie just got a nine, three wagon,
which I haven't really seen yet.
That's the, they got another one.
Well, that's the fifth one because the first one died
and ejected all of its oil and Daniel gave it away.
And so, then they, so they've got four on the property.
What, here's the thing.
You sent us photos.
It, you did find a very rare, very unique,
very interesting wagon.
What a great, really, it's really dead car, parent car.
I have to applaud you.
We're making fun because of the sob stuff that happens here.
And I can't, I'm really cool.
If I had four porches on the property,
I'd be like, yeah.
And yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, what's your problem?
That's a good point.
You really wouldn't worry about it, would you, yeah?
Car conclusion number two is from Thomas B.
He's been listening to latest podcast
and his car debate was featured on episode 876.
Wow.
When he was selling his Jota MX5 GT, the MK3.75.
Unfortunately, they lost their first daughter
in pregnancy, April 2024, which was a world-changing moment.
Oh my gosh.
And understandably, cars were not even in his thoughts.
It took them both a long time to get back
to some level of normality.
Nice.
Thomas, we're very gutted for you.
Helping things are okay.
They are, they have turned.
And they're both slowly started to come to terms
of the late last year and kind of restart their lives,
put things in perspective in a big way.
Now, this is interesting.
It put things in perspective and lit a fire under him
to pursue his dream car.
So once they kind of got emotionally settled,
what dawned on Thomas is that kind of,
you have right now, you know, very interesting.
So all of a sudden, they thought their life was going perfect
and then they had this curve ball
and they realized you never know what's around the corner.
That is so hard to learn and then act on.
So he went out and bought, hit 2016 BMW M2 manual
and he said, full dealer history, 40,000 miles of the car
he's always wanted and hoping for.
And here's what's fascinating.
He said, now that they're expecting their second child
do any time, right around the time he wrote this,
he said he's perfectly willing to sell the M2
if he needs to when they have this second child.
This was that you only live once moment.
It was this big pivot point of I could get this car now.
I don't know how long I'll have it.
Let me have this experience.
He went and got this M2.
What's interesting is he says he,
if this second child is born safe as they expect
and we hope so, Tom.
Yes.
He would be over the moon to sell the M2.
He's like, I had that life experience.
I love that you embraced the life experience
less than out of this tragedy.
That is so hard and I feel for you guys.
I love that you went out and bought an M2
because you're like, well, we could do that now.
And the biggest thing I want to say to you, Tom,
and everybody else is it's so hard
and I have missed many.
It is so hard to get a new opportunity
that you already let go by in all kinds of life.
The opportunities in front of you right now
and you go, eh?
Because you think, I'll have that opportunity again.
Whatever that opportunity is we're talking about,
cars, life, choices, I'm gonna have a life experience.
I can take a cool trip.
The chances of the opportunity coming back around
are slim to none.
If it's an opportunity you would like to take
the reason to not take it shouldn't be,
ah, it'll come by again later and you bought an M2.
And life is and family are growing,
so you may sell an M2.
Great conclusion, love it.
We've got so many more conclusions to do, Thomas.
Thank you for writing, wishing you all the best.
Colin, thank you for writing.
Congratulations on your cool sub.
It is a cool car.
It looks great.
Really appreciate you guys writing the debates.
Keep them coming because we've got so many to get through.
We've got a backlog, but we're working for it on them.
And we apologize if we can't get to yours,
but keep all those coming.
And we love how you guys are thinking.
Thank you so much.
A massage chair might seem a bit extravagant,
especially these days.
Eight different settings, adjustable intensity,
plus it's heated.
And it just feels so good.
Yes, a massage chair might seem a bit extravagant,
but when it can come with a car, suddenly it seems
quite practical.
The Volkswagen Tiguan, packed with premium features
like available massaging front seats,
that only feels extravagant.
There is a new series we're going to do on this podcast
where we're subtitling it.
Did you see this?
Where I'm going to talk about movies and story and stuff
that I think you guys should see.
And Paul's going to talk about design and watches
and architecture and stuff that you guys should take notice of.
I don't have a big one yet, but I have a quick note,
because at the time you hear this, the F1 movie will be out.
We have not seen it yet, but it will have been out.
So we'll talk about it in the future.
We want to talk about the F1 movie after I've seen it,
but it is directed by Joseph Kaczynski,
who directed Top Gun Maverick, the connective tissue
of Tom Cruise is very interesting in Top Gun Maverick,
because a movie you should see if you haven't seen it
is called a Bolivian.
Joseph Kaczynski also directed that it's
based on a graphic novel that was never published in 07
when there was a writer strike, which happened recently again.
He couldn't hire a writer to try to write his script,
so he'd made it as a graphic novel comic.
It started shopping the comic, got the movie Greenlit,
off of this comic that was unpublished that he'd had made.
So it's never been made into a graphic novel
that was ever actually published.
Wait, Joseph did the graphic novel?
Joseph did the graphic novel.
He probably hired an artist, but the point is he built
the story as a graphic novel and he used that
to shop the film, got the film made.
It stars Tom Cruise, Morgan Freeman.
If you haven't seen a Bolivian, go see it.
It was kind of a sci-fi, it's really good.
It's worth it, it's worth it.
It is a very good sci-fi film.
It's post-apocalyptic, I mean, is it perfect?
No, but it is a really fun movie.
And once you see that, you can totally go,
oh, I see you hired him for Top Gun.
And now he's done the F1 movie.
So see a Bolivian if you haven't seen it
and there'll be more movie conversations going on.
But you know, we have questions.
And at some point, we're going to wrap up this podcast.
Jumping into questions, thank you guys so much.
We posted your one-year Lotus Amir review
and that included the inline four review
all in within the same piece.
So we drove that.
If you haven't seen it, it's on our original channel,
just like this podcast.
Damn it, Patton recently moved to Bentonville, Arkansas.
He says, self-proclaimed mountain biking capital, the US.
Huh, okay.
We take issue.
Yes, other places have declared that,
including where we live in Park City.
But what we got?
Andrew found out his neighbor, two doors down,
has a C806.
What is the best non-creepy way to boyfriend him?
You just want to drive a C806.
No, see, maybe he listens to this podcast.
Maybe here's the thing.
When you know he's home, pull up to his house in your car,
which I have with the nose in 86.
Park, don't walk down.
I know he's two doors down.
Like coming back from errands, park your car
in front of his house and go to the door
and start the conversation with, I see you're a car guy.
Because that is not common.
Car people with cars they love are not common.
You don't want to be the weird guy from two doors down
that just go, oh, so you got a cool car.
You pulled up in a crew car, true.
You have your cool car out front.
You want to start a conversation as a car person to car person
and also say this, he might not be much of a car person.
Probably is, but might not be.
Might just be like I always wanted one
and that's the end of the conversation.
But I bet it's not.
If you start with your car out front, I think it'll help.
That's excellent.
No, I like that.
Aaron's asking about hooked on driving track days.
He's got a G8 GXP that he wants to bring to an event soon,
but he doesn't have it quite ready yet.
So he's asking, do we have a spectator policy?
Come.
Come is the policy you have to sign the waiver
to get in the gate.
Sign the waiver.
You can take photos or whatever.
If you want to get to certain places on the track,
it's hard to just walk up and get a media badge
and go weird places.
But from the paddock, hang out with people,
see the cool cars, take photos, you're welcome.
On Instagram file photography asks how long we think it'll be
if ever until a company forms and starts giving the Mazda MX-5,
Miata, the singer-porsha treatment.
Since we've been talking about singer-porshas, you know,
I don't know that that's ever going to happen
because the early Miatas are such scrappy,
they're known as scrappy and cheap.
If you gussie them up and make them,
there's already companies that make them drive amazing.
There's a lot of companies that sell you parts.
But the whole point was to get in cheap.
I don't know that the 9.11 ever had the aura of cheap.
Get in cheap.
Did it?
I never really did.
You know what I think you've touched on here?
The Miata, while great, is not aspirational.
One day I'll have a Miata.
You just generally go buy a Miata.
You go buy a Miata.
You buy a used one because you want to make it a track thing.
You buy a used one because it's cheap.
You got to a place where you retired.
You want a cheap little convertible.
People just go buy a Miata.
I've always wanted a Miata my entire life
and I've been saving up for a Miata.
And I love them.
You just go buy a Miata.
The 9.11 is this aspirational thing.
One day maybe I'll reach high enough.
And that's I think the reason that the singer
and that kind of stuff is let us sell you the best version
of the thing you've dreamed about.
I don't know that the Miata's ever gonna be that.
But the best version of that Miata could be made
for probably 1,500 bucks in parts
on top of the cost of the car.
Maybe.
And it'll handle great.
The Miata that you're gonna love.
It would be an excellent.
And that's the one you want, which is the whole point
to save money and stay cheap.
That's good.
So no is the answer.
I think we've walked our way to know.
That's where we ended up.
Yep.
Did you see,
card you make sense comment?
Here he says the two-year-old
Maserati Grecale Traffeos are apparently now $60,000.
He's asking if we would get one of those over a McCahn.
I think it's fascinating.
You're taking more of a dice roll on reliability,
but a Grecale for that cheap is kind of like, hmm.
That actually made me think for $60,000.
But it is that Natuno engine.
So it's a brand new engine.
It's a very cool engine.
We like it.
It's driving it.
It should be.
Who knows?
Who knows?
It's still a minute.
You could get back into a Maserati.
There you go.
For the price of a McCahn,
you could have a Maserati SUV.
But it's the only want the Traffeos.
I don't want the Grecale without the Traffeo.
Yeah, I know.
Anything.
I want it all Traffeo.
Traffeo only everybody.
That's where we are.
On Facebook, James Lang says,
Hi, Todd and Paul,
what's selling features make the difference
between boxy good and boxy bad design?
Boxy good, like 70s Volvo
and classic Range Rover Land Rover styling.
What the thinkest thou?
Thank you for writing a new Jaguar boxy bad.
Yeah, yeah, the big weird pink thing
they released with the new logo
and all of that badness, yeah.
Boxy bad.
And it's like weird rounded off boxy too,
which is even weirder.
It's like boxes with radii on them.
It's very, very strange.
James, it comes down to the portion of the boxes.
But it also comes down to the details too,
because the details on that Jag,
and I just saw another spy shot,
just all not spy shot,
but just another rendering.
No.
Boxy bad.
You saw the pictures where they actually drove it
through New York, and it looked like a mistake.
It looked like somebody was testing a video game,
like the actual cars not rendered,
but the rest of the world is real.
It's like, what is going on there, all bad, yeah.
But rangeies, for the most part, boxy good.
Yeah, and they have the nice radiuses
on the box too.
Yeah, very nice radius and the details
are so important paid attention to details proportion,
because the boxes, it's not just boxes.
Rolls Royce Collinan.
Boxy bad.
Very good.
Very good.
It's like a manx cat in the back.
It's like trimmed off.
What happened here?
Yeah.
Half the box.
I realized they didn't call me to ask.
They didn't, but he asked you, so that's good.
That's excellent.
James, thank you for writing.
All right, so we'll have more questions in the future.
We will table this conversation for now.
Thank you guys.
Yes, yes, thank you for listening, writing,
and now watching.
Which is crazy.
We hope you are watching.
Please share the podcast on whatever platform
you're actually listening or watching with it.
We'd love for you to share it.
Tell other people that it exists.
Again, this is podcast 1,001.
We're going to stop counting.
But it's the podcast 1,001,
and we've got a lot more coming.
Look for us all the Tuesdays going forward.
We can't wait to be back for sure.
Until then, cheers, everyone.
About this episode
A fresh start in a new studio marks the 1,001st episode of Everyday Driver Car Debate. The hosts dive into a variety of automotive topics, including the recent announcement of the Corvette ZR1 and ZR1X, discussing its naming controversy and performance specs. They also review the Genesis G90, highlighting its luxury features and value compared to competitors. The episode features debates on Porsche's current direction, the Miata's potential for a 'singer' treatment, and listener car debates, all while engaging in lighthearted banter and reflections on the automotive community.
all wheel drive
cars and coffee
Chevy
Grandsport
horsepower
hypercar
Koenigsegg
Lexus
mid-engine Corvette
power at the wheels
Acura RSX
Alpine A110
Audi Quattro
BMW 3 Series
BMW M2
BMW M4
BMW Z4
Cadillac Escalade
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Suburban
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang
Genesis G90
Honda Civic
Honda Fit EV
Honda NSX
Hyundai Genesis
Hyundai Kona
Hyundai Veloster
Infiniti QX80
Jeep Wrangler
Lamborghini Gallardo
Lexus LS
Lucid Air
Mazda 3 / Axela
Mazda MX-5 / Miata
Mazda RX-7
McLaren Artura
McLaren F1
Mercedes-Benz A-Class
Mercedes-Benz S-Class
Nissan Armada
Porsche 356
Porsche 911
Porsche 918 Spyder
Porsche 928
Porsche Boxster
Porsche Carrera GT
Porsche Cayenne
Porsche Cayman
Ram 1500
Saab Turbo X
Shelby Cobra
Subaru BRZ
Subaru Crosstrek
Tesla Model 3
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Prius
Toyota RAV4
Volkswagen Golf
Volkswagen Passat
Volvo S60
Volvo V60
Volvo XC60
Original notes
We’re back in an all-new studio to begin a different era of our podcast, with longer/single episodes you can find with video.
We will still be available as an audio-only podcast, but look for us on Tuesdays if you’d like to watch us debate, disagree, and then go drive again.
00:00 - We’re back with a New Studio!
2:50 - Genesis G90 review
6:00 - Corvette ZR1, ZR1X and Crazy Useless Power
18:35 - Robotaxis on the loose!
20:12 - NISMO Armada?
22:47 - AMG GTXX
27:21 - Mazda SP concept and the Rotary
29:23 - Gordon Murray Health concerns
30:30 - The Problem with Porsche
1:06:18 - Car Debate 1 - Phil in Ca needing to Move On
1:17:48 - Car Debate 2 - Michael S gets his wife her first car
1:24:44 - Car Conclusion 1 - Colin Cutler and Surprise Saabs
1:30:11 - Car Conclusion 2 - Tomas B on loss and living in the moment
1:33:04 - Did You See This? - Oblivion
1:35:15 - How to meet a neighbor with a cool car?
1:36:30 - Attending a HOD track day and not driving?
1:36:55 - Will anyone make a Singer style Miata?
1:38:40 - Do we want a cheap Grecale Trofeo?
1:39:32 - What makes good and bad boxy styling?
1:41:10 - Rate and Review if you can, until next time.
Write us with your Car Debates, Car Conclusions, and Topic Tuesdays at [email protected] or everydaydriver.com.
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Everyday Driver Car Debate
Everyday Driver
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