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Term
starts
“Starts” means how many races the driver actually started. It helps compare performance fairly over time, because it accounts for how many opportunities they had.
Term
top five
“Top five” just means you finished the race in the first five spots. It’s a quick way to show how often a driver is doing really well, not just occasionally.
Term
top 10s
“Top 10s” means finishing in the first ten places. If someone has lots of top-10 finishes, it usually means they’re regularly competitive and scoring points.
Term
clause in the contract
A “clause” is a specific written condition inside a contract. Here, it describes a rule that lets the team swap drivers based on circumstances around Friday of a race weekend.
Company
Sauber
Sauber is a racing team. The way it’s used here suggests they had a Porsche-related car or deal that another driver/team could use for a race weekend.
Term
race weekend
A “race weekend” is the whole event across multiple days—practice, qualifying, and the race. This matters because teams may make decisions day-by-day.
LIVE
This is Off-Track.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Off-Track with Hinch or Rossi.
As you probably picked up on Tuesday's episode, Alex is testing in Milwaukee,
so he could not join us today for what is a very exciting episode,
mainly just because it's our good friend, Tony Kanan,
whose longtime friend, colleague, ally.
Happy to have you on the show, my friend.
Thank you. And actually, this closure,
I only accepted because Alex is not here, just for you guys.
Because I was gonna have to use it that, you know,
I fire him as well because I'm, you know, you know the topic.
So I'll be very uncomfortable one more day this week,
and I didn't want to.
Luckily, I was fired before you ever got there.
So I had no issues here.
And I'm sorry about that.
We just capped the trend, Hinch.
You started it.
I started, it's true, it's true.
I was definitely a trendsetter in that sense.
I've got a nice little club forming now.
One of you guys got fired and then came back, or is coming back.
Tim, this is something that I want to leave it out there for all of you.
When we don't renew contracts, doesn't mean you got fired.
I got fired.
Hinch got fired.
I got fired.
I know that when you don't renew, you say,
hey, we're not picking up your option.
We're not renewing.
Technically, it's not getting fired.
You're having an option.
Now, having a contract and they go, you got to leave
and we're not paying you.
It's your problem.
Get out.
That's getting fired.
And that happened to me on the grid.
Okay.
I was going to soft.
I was going to butter you up with some easy questions before we got to this.
But we're here.
We're here.
So let's just at this point in age after every really, I mean, you don't need to be warmed up.
Let's just go full gas.
First lap out of the pits, flat out into one.
Okay.
So I think that's actually a really important point.
Obviously, TK, the announcement came out earlier this week that Dixon and Rosenquest
are coming to the team.
That obviously comes at the expense of Christian Lundgaard, Nolan Siegel.
So let's I think I think it's an important point that you brought up.
I mean, Christian had a contract that was, I guess, a two plus something.
And so, yeah, the decision to not pick up the option is very different than the decision to cancel an active contract.
Correct.
And obviously, we contracts are confidential, so I don't want to get into all the details.
But also that option, it was not until further down the road, few months down the road.
So technically, legally contract that we both agreed to sign, I had no obligation one way or the other
until the date that we both agree, because as we all know, when you read the contract you sign,
you're fully aware of the dates and commitments and so on.
So just to make sure that, you know, there was a difficult decision.
There was all the world that we're going to talk about.
And obviously me being in a position that he was before as a driver, I it was no reason to hold the kid.
He is in the prime of his career.
He is there is one of the arguably the two best seats in the series right now available.
Why not release him?
Because if you think about how if I was going to be very cruel, I would hold him until those seats will go away.
And he will land in a smaller team because then it wouldn't be a threat to me.
People are going to hate me.
You were going to hate me today and in three months.
But then next year when he's not kicking my butt, it wouldn't be a thing, right?
So you can look at every angle, right, Hinchin?
And you know, I think, go ahead.
No, I say it's a really valid point, man, because obviously nobody knows what you say the details of the contract were.
But two of the most coveted seats in the series are up for grabs.
I think it's pretty straightforward to assume that both Mike Shank and Chip Ganassi are talking to Christian at this very moment, potentially.
And it's not like you legally had the option to hang him up and stop him from having these conversations.
Until yeah, there's a good chance that one or both of those seats was gone.
Correct.
And obviously, is it ever going to be a comfortable conversation about somebody that is doing so well?
The question is always going to be why, right?
And then the thousands and thousands of fans that are going to say, you're crazy.
Why are you doing this?
You're going to lose your job.
So that won't be the first time.
And yes, perception wise, short term, we can talk about all of it.
And I told you that, you know, I really appreciate how good of a friend you are, Tim.
We know each other for years.
And when you text me, I can even say, DK, I know it's a long stretch.
Let's talk about it.
I think that is nothing to hide.
I've been called worse names before.
I am not comfortable with the situation.
I'm sad in many ways, but it's business.
If I cannot, this is something that for me as well, Hintje, at this point in age of micro, if I decide to do this for a living,
I do believe that I have my morals.
I think I need to decide sometimes if I'm going to agree with the company that I'm working for,
whatever that is, the direction that they're taking or not, then I can make my own decision to stay or not.
But as long as I think I have the freedom, power and the position that my boss will let me run it
and still be me, still be the Tony Canon that was someone before took this job at McLaren.
Then, yeah, I'll make mistakes.
I'll make bad calls.
I looked at Michael Andrade in the face three years after he fired me.
Then when I won the 500 in front of his three cars and I was, and did I get mad at Michael 100%?
Did I ever stop talking to Michael?
No, it's a small world, we can't forget that.
Did I understand years later why he did it?
Yes.
Did I like it?
No.
Yeah, and I think there's probably some parallels there, right?
Because it's not as though Christian and the team or Christian you or anybody had a falling out, right?
It wasn't coming from a place of, oh, we got to get rid of this guy.
It comes, I'm assuming, from a different opportunity that at some point something has to give.
So to the question that you brought up, and I'm sure the question that 90% of the audience is asking is if not why, how?
How did we get here?
So let's go back three years ago when I took this job and that's something that is like, it's going to look like,
if we're going to talk about, we need to talk about facts and then we go from, because facts are the only things that you can, you know,
hypothetically this, yes, did I put a lot of effort to bring Nolan up?
Yes, was I responsible for that?
Yes.
Did I took another guy out of the car, details that?
I don't want to even dwell on it.
You know who started all that?
Palu.
So, oh, you fired Felix.
I did not.
We didn't renew Felix, but because we hired Palu, I don't think Zach was wrong about that.
I wasn't even here yet.
So, and Felix left in very good terms, look what happened.
And then we hired, to present our good friend Rossi with a one-year deal, which he wasn't very interested.
I knew he was going to put us in a very difficult spot for the Indy 500, because you're going to fight with Penske and Gnasi with three drivers.
I was part of that.
They had an Ericsson one.
Chip had five cars, all five in the top 10.
Two had a hiccup, Dixon and Palu, and it was Ericsson and I right there.
So, oh, you fired Rossi.
I did not.
I offered Rossi a deal.
We didn't, it wasn't good enough for him, which totally understand.
But I was the demon that did that.
And the same people that criticized me for not resigning longer were the ones that criticized me when I hired longer instead of Rossi.
So, it's very confusing how you're going to please people.
But back to, so I don't want to derail from, we've been building this thing.
Am I proud, Hinch, that to say, since I've been here, it's been the best three years of this thing.
And then you go look the facts and Pato finished 196 points behind Palu last year.
Stingray Robb is 24th in the championship this year.
He's not 186 points behind the lead perception, reality.
And then it goes, wow, Tony, you're so hard on your people or not at all.
I think we need to be real and throughout my career.
Well, I have to massage my ego this morning quite bad.
She actually, I woke up and for some reason she said, I'm going to read you a stat and you tell me which, you know, that Hinch,
because I know for a fact you probably don't know half of your stuff because we don't keep track of that.
Right.
We care about today.
Correct.
She goes, 389 starts, 285 top 10s, 230 top five.
So I'm like, what are you getting?
389 starts.
I know it was me.
She goes, yeah, 65% of your races you finish in the top five.
I said, well, I'm not driving next year.
What are you trying to tell me?
She says, you're badass and you should not doubt any decisions you made in your life.
And then you know how to do build stuff.
But anyway, she was probably, I don't know if I look like or I don't say I always do.
But, you know, so then looking at the team and what the team wants and obviously we're being through some drivers,
the whole mass, right?
Then I hire Malukas.
He breaks his hand cannot come back in seven months.
People don't take it accountability that there are partners, people like we don't want to swap drivers all the time that I get.
I thought they couldn't do the whole season because he's doing whack.
I borrow Porsche from Sauber with a clause in the contract that they could take him hinge on Friday of a race weekend.
If somebody had a, you know, I don't know, one of those drivers didn't feel good enough when they could take him.
Panicitis, yeah.
Right? And then I knew and you know how that world works.
As soon as that kid was going to win two or three races, what's going to happen?
They were going to take him back.
Then, oh, this kind of man so useless.
Can I even hold the kid in a contract?
Who will talk about that?
Didn't think about that.
Then Nolan, Nolan won Le Mans.
Nolan had, it was leading the last championship and then and and we're like, let's get him.
Yeah, it didn't work out.
I mean, you know, Nolan has been doing quite well in the last four races.
Now, I think we dialed in unfortunately, you know, later in the season, but hopefully that will help him.
And that's how we get to, you know, to that today.
So what would the reason for the change?
We were in the 5,500 with Pato that has been.
We don't need to say people that follow Pato how I've been there took me 12 years.
So I feel for Pato and then the pressure on us because it's McLaren and and the triple crown, right?
And then all this we had, you name it.
And we go to the 5,500 with Pato Christian.
It is phenomenal in the three world courses.
Just I mean, a guy can't drive the race car like no tomorrow can't pass people like no tomorrow struggling in the oval and Nolan
that is been struggling and but like let's face it, it's it's been building, but he is not going to win the 5,500 unless something else happened.
And I'm not saying that in the mean way.
That's why we finished the 500 and I have to answer a lot of questions that you can imagine.
So we sat down Monday after the race and I said, Zach, I mean, for three years, we're growing this team.
We're being labeled as good as the other three.
They've been doing this for 30 years.
We're five years old if you think about it and you know what I'm talking about, right?
This is not the same team.
It is not offense to the people that were here.
We're not arguing that.
So I need to make a very, very precise decision here for the next three or five years because I'm not going to survive.
Not because I'm worried that Zach is going to fire me.
He's like, I, Tony Kanan, cannot wake up every morning and spend 14 hours a day in the shop with a motivation that I'm not going to have because I'm going to be beaten.
And here that we won two races and we had the best years of our lives is not good for me.
And I'm not saying that I race for the best teams in IndyCar three out of the four.
I was the least successful driver out of all my teammates, which is, I don't know, I should brag about that.
So my standard was always really high, right?
And I can't do this.
So what is the goal here?
And Zach goes, well, the triple crown.
So the triple car is the Indy 500, which we're not saying we don't care about the championship.
No, what's priority number one, which every team I've been until May win the Indy 500, then win the championship.
If you got to choose, you're going to stack the deck one way or the other.
This is the way you're leaning.
Oh, yes.
And oh, this is so disrespectful for the championship.
Why still, why then you do the rest of it?
I mean, you want to ask Roger that?
No one said we don't also want to do that, right?
Like it's not that it's not just below, but if you have to prioritize one or the other, that's fine.
Correct.
And then, then, then we go.
Then the next step was, all right, lined up that we have.
We need to make a decision.
We had one driver that, you know, two drivers that were technically up.
And then I got asked, what do you think about Christian's phenomenon?
I think Christian is getting better every year.
To be fair, when we hire Christian in two years, I think he should have been a little bit more further down the road on the ovals.
But that's my opinion.
That is something that, you know, oh, Palut took three years to win any oval.
Yeah.
He also won 10 bloody races before that.
But, you know, oh, gee, I understand.
We don't have time.
I don't have that time because the people that I worked for don't want to wait two or three years.
But that is the smallest part.
Then you go, I think he's two years away.
I might be wrong.
Can he win next year?
Facts are, I think you will get there, but I'm not confident.
And I run the team.
You're asking my opinion.
People can not agree with that.
And that's how that started, right?
So then we go, okay, let's see what's going to happen.
So we technically have two seats available.
Then all of a sudden Felix comes out of the blue, which you should ask him because I don't know what happened.
I didn't chase it.
He's out.
I'm like, okay, which Dixon wasn't in play yet.
There was rumors this and that, but I think Dixon was debating what to do.
But he wasn't like, oh, I'm going there.
He's like, I just want to hear what's going on.
Yeah.
Or have an opportunity, you know what I mean?
You're not going to not take that conversation, right?
You're not going to not take that meeting.
I don't even should be able to explain to anybody when like, yeah, Tom Brady causes.
I don't want to play for the Patriots.
I don't want to.
I mean, you're the year old.
I mean, you have to consider, but Dixon wasn't in play yet.
I actually got told do not approach because we had history of the two bosses there.
So I mean, a guy like Dixon, he will call you if he wants to come, right?
Yeah.
So we started looking around.
It was Marcus Erickson, Armstrong.
All those people were up.
We brought Leonardo for Neurali that came to the Grand Prix.
I mean, my phone number was the most popular guy in the paddock, as you can imagine.
Is that why you didn't respond to my texts?
Yeah, Tim.
You're on the list, but down and I never got there.
Dixon got me again, just like 2002.
And then Felix wins the 500, which it was the people think that's what it was.
So we start looking at having more conversations about it with Felix.
And I mean, time Christians winning, winning, winning.
Okay, well, my lineup is going to be originally Christian, Pato and Felix.
Felix and Pato, we know the chemistry there.
I've experienced one of the best times of my life with my three buddies,
and then we're extremely successful, all three of us.
And then all of a sudden Dixon becomes available.
And that is what I don't think people, people are trying to divert.
They keep trying to place like, I don't understand the Felix to Christian.
I never said that.
It was not the case.
Christian was in and then Dixon became available.
Now, is it all your big fan of Dixon is your best friend?
Oh, now you just, if you bring Dyer and Barry now the mafia is together and Tony has all his friends.
Yeah, you've got to remember that the mandate from ownership is when the Indy 500
and when Scott Dixon becomes available, you have to, you have to look at that.
But you know the catch though, that that is something that I think, yes, you have to.
The guy's a legend, right?
Chip said that when his press release, when he let him go, what Dixon brings to this scene?
Well, first of all, Dixon was there for 25 years and I experienced the Scott Dixon effect in my own skin.
There's another chief in town there and that is the nature of our business and you know that.
And Dixon is not leaving because he feels defeat.
No, the focus is on the kid because the kid is remarkably good.
It doesn't have a place for Dixon and that he starts to struggle and he still wanted it to race
because let's face it, Dixon doesn't need to prove anything or make any more money to be fair.
But he still wants to do it.
Well, how can we create an environment that I think he needs a change?
And I've only realized that when I actually got fired myself, I didn't choose to do that, but I got forced to do that.
And I realized maybe it wasn't a bad thing, right?
And that he can actually still be Scott Dixon.
Then my deal with Pato is to make Pato win the 8500.
Look at my driver lineup and the experiences that they have.
I don't have a championship among the three of them.
Their feedback, it's okay.
Sorry, we're going to name my teammates.
It's not there and I'm fighting with those guys.
I know what they have.
I was there 23 years ago, right?
And then we're going to 28 in a new car.
27 we can all get by.
Every single engineer being in every single team by now, we have all everybody set up, right?
And what's going to happen?
In 28, I can tell you who's going to dominate the first year.
And how am I going to go and answer Zach, the board, the fans, the McLaren getting lapped on is the end of it.
So it was just a matter of time that I was going to get hammer now or in three years from now.
What's the direction?
Then you get Dixon with the culture, the mentality.
Pato never seen any of that.
No matter how much I try to explain or I bring Hunter Aid that is like the most OCD person you can ever meet.
Well, you got to keep yachts clean.
If they get messy, then it's a deal.
He's got so many of those yachts.
He got to meet Ohio Saturday afternoon because he was on his boat and got delayed.
The helicopter couldn't take off from his boat because it was cloudy.
I had a nickel.
TK, if I had a nickel.
And then mentality is hard to introduce if I don't have a Dixon there, right?
So let me ask you this.
When you have this conversation with Scott and you're painting the picture for him, how much of this element are you laying out for him?
Scott, we want you because you're Scott Dixon because of what you've done, what you still can do and what you will continue to do.
But we also need you to be the guy.
We need you to be the guy that changes that culture, that changes some of the procedure and protocol.
Or is that just something that innately exists within Scott that you don't even have to tell him that?
You just drop him in the room and let him do his thing.
Hinge.
Yeah, it's second option there.
You don't need to.
What I told Scott was this is where we are.
I'm a part that I'm dying to have you here, but you are my friend.
So it's a little bit of a conflict there.
So I'm going to put my best friend head on and I'm going to tell you this is where we are.
We're not there.
And this is why you're coming.
So are you sure you want to do this?
Right?
Because I think what you're used to the norm, the things.
You're going to struggle a bit because they they're not happening as you used to because we're not there yet.
And that's when I need Scott to do it.
I, and you know Scott, Scott's like, yeah, man, I know that.
Of course, he knew that he's been watching.
He's not just decided one day.
I, you know, I'm tired.
Halu's beating me.
But fire looks good.
That's where I'm going to go.
How much do you think the fact that you have a relationship with Scott played a part in, you know, in the sense of you guys know each other so well?
I know, like, it's a logical place to go if you look at the hierarchy of teams, but at the same time, if if somebody else was in charge of Tony kind of never taken this role in McLaren.
No, I mean, same motivation to step away from.
It's, it's, it's hard to, you know, you're asking like, I'm going to be bad to give props to myself, but I'll let me try to explain to answer your question.
All right, here comes the humble brag.
Here we go.
No, no, it's a couple things.
I think you are you are my friend, actually.
So knowing me and my personality, do you think I can make it work no matter what?
That's my question to you.
Yeah.
Do you think I'm relentless?
I'll be something like that.
Well, that, that, that tells a lot because then he knows I'm not just here for the ride, right?
It's been a couple years that people are like, man, you're up to something, right?
You're up to something.
And, and that alone catches people's attention, but I cannot, despite the fact that, you know, yes, he knows I'm going to do a solid to him.
But, but it's not because we're friends.
It's because I'm, I want to win as bad as him.
He knows that we have the same mentality.
As much as you know what he brings, he knows what you bring.
Correct.
And I didn't just bring, but it's how much I'm going to fight even if we don't bring.
What's plan B?
Plan B is plan A. We'll change plan A if we have to, but that is no plan B.
We're going to make it work.
We're going to struggle together and we're going to fight until, but then you, let's put it in a,
and a little bit of a bigger picture here in IndyCar nowadays.
Opportunities for the future, not just in IndyCar, but for, look what happened to me.
The aftermath and what team right now will give anyone career-wise a broader picture of a future in a career.
Sorry, no offense is not because I'm here.
If I was outside McLaren, I was going to say there for no one whack ambassador.
Hey, look at Ryan, right?
Look at me.
No offense.
Chip is awesome.
Roger, what happened when Roger is not around anymore?
That is the question everybody's asking, right?
And then including probably Roger himself.
So if you look at future as well, if you look like purely selfishly, how it's us.
And then you go, okay, Tony's there.
I have a chance to create history and prove some people wrong just because they're pissing me off,
saying I'm 46-year-old and I don't win anything anymore.
I can help my teammates.
Pato is a legend.
My kid is Pato's biggest fan.
Probably be happier if Pato wins a 500 than me.
If I win one more or not, great, but it's not going to change my life.
But I'm going to be part of a much bigger picture of just personally, I would say,
doing with my friends, going away in an awesome environment and all those things.
And please don't take me.
I'm not saying he's in a bad environment.
You know exactly what I'm saying.
And then I can move to Europe where my family is right now and maybe I can do some hypercar stuff.
It's pretty cool too.
Yeah, yeah.
And then maybe I'll become a number like...
Yeah, yeah.
I don't think I need to fake the picture.
Everyone assumes that hypercar is somewhere in the future.
Because again, you look past the next year, the next two years, start playing the next five years.
What does that look like?
Yeah, I mean, and in all that and knowing exactly what you do,
I can see a lineup, Lendo Norris, I don't know, Piastro Verstappen, I'll let you guys aside.
And Dixon, on a car for a twig, can you imagine that stuff?
So to me, it makes so much sense, but people only, the narrow vision is then we got to go,
then the next question is going to be why Felix, right?
So, but that is the Dixon part.
It's like you're reading my notes.
That is the Dixon part.
And then I put that into Christian.
Best time of his career had 14 podiums total, 12 since he joined us.
So can you give us a little bit of props too?
But it's got Dixon guys.
I cannot pass that.
I am sorry.
Okay.
So then let's get to Felix.
When did Felix really get on the radar?
Was it as simple as you guys watched that last lap?
You were looking at it, you were thinking about it, and you saw the last lap,
and you thought, well, okay, I guess that answers that question.
No, and then Felix is something that obviously people debatable because the guy just won the Indy 500
and it's not that he was fourth in the top three crash anyone.
No, he drove one of the best laps of the Speedway ever.
And he's like, can we recognize that?
But they had nothing to do with it.
Felix was really raised for us.
I know what Felix brings and I know his strengths.
I know his inconsistencies.
I've known.
He came about because Dixon was not in play until he was for the other car, the sixth one.
So then you go further and say, okay, well, can he win in the ovals?
Well, I think so.
Evidently, yes.
Evidently, yes, right?
So as a teammate, how is he with Pato?
Awesome.
Dixon loves him.
So chemistry, back to the chemistry thing.
I know it works and people will argue with anyone that says no.
And that is going to basically emanate through the team, through the engineering group.
Also, I'll be able to actually add more people to my engineering group because the people that I have,
the environment that I'm creating, and that's going to go through the team.
Because culturally, we were forming something really cool, but we were extremely disconnected.
I don't need to tell you that.
And that's why Felix.
Now, yes.
And then personality wise, Christian is not that person, but it's okay too.
But then all those little things, they add up all the way through the decision that I made.
Short term, big risk, yeah.
My question is, if this situation was happening on an oval weekend, a double header in Milwaukee or in Nashville,
which to my point is not a defense, that's the reason that I go, hey, you're in the best time.
You got to go talk to the people that we all know today, right?
Go look at his last oval results, which he had his best one in San Luis, which Ryan's been helping a lot.
And see if the narrative would be a little bit different.
But that is just so pity and small to even mention that kind of stuff, because it's irrelevant on just the results of this year.
There is no denying that he's going to be a threat.
And I know he's going to beat us if he lands in those two cars in some of the races.
On the short term, it's a very risky move.
I think what's best for the team, it's what I explained through the last 30 minutes.
And it's interesting because there's something I hadn't really thought about until we sort of talked through it all right now,
which is going into Mid-Ohio, the points were being led by Polo, and in second place, David Malukas.
Go back three years, and over the last three years, you guys have successfully hired both of those guys.
Those were the guys that you picked to have on the team, and they're 12 in the championship.
For different reasons and variety of reasons, they're not there, but clearly...
No, those two actually on my defense, on our defense, one sign didn't come, we know all the story.
The other one, he made a mistake.
He was not able to do his job for you at that time.
Again, but I'm just saying, it's interesting because you as a team were put in a tough position on multiple occasions
and every time your solution, your first solution was another good one, but that one didn't work out either
and you kind of have kept punting down the road.
So you've not been able as a team to really institute the plan that you wanted to
and execute it fully because of outside influence.
Yeah, which in a way, Hinch, I love because...
I already came to the conclusion that whoever we believe, God or whoever...
My life has to be chaos all the time, otherwise it's not...
It's never going to be, it's like normal, right?
Because it's one of those things, like this morning I send Zach a text in a funny way saying,
Zach says to me all the time, man, you're very passionate, but you try to look a positive out of the negative.
You're going to learn something about it.
I said, Zach, how about we'll wake up in the morning, have a little bit more sympathy from some of the fans that are not sympathizing with us
and I would write, dear fans, this is how much I love the series
and I'm not that selfish, just loving my team.
We hire Palu and we let Palu stay achieved.
We hire Malukas and we let Malukas go to Panky.
We let Rossi go to much better things than now that he's actually found his home and he hasn't.
And we hire Felix and we let Felix go to Indy in the 500.
And we took Christian out of his misery that he was in the team before, gave him all that and now we're letting him to fly much higher.
We love the series, we love to give it back.
So how about you guys thank us for all of those?
If you want to fire us three years, you know what I mean?
So I mean, you can look at the high side and say, you know, it's like, you're welcome.
The team's like, good luck, Chuck.
Yeah, like, are we really that bad of a people?
Look, maybe we did people a favor if you want to look at that way.
You know what I mean?
So like you said, Ben, it is what it is.
I know, these deals, man, like I've been around this sport long enough to know that there's always so much more that goes into it than what people read about in the news,
what people hear Scuttlebutt in the paddock.
Like there's always just so many more layers and so many more factors to consider every one of these decisions.
And this is not unique to your team.
This is every team.
This is sponsors.
This is manufacturers.
The number of times that and I've been there, I felt wronged by every one of those parties at some point.
And then you and then you learn more about the global scenario that really, you know, really takes everything into account.
You're like, okay, I see how we got here.
You know, it's nine times out of 10.
It's actually a pretty rational, logical, reasonable explanation.
But we're passionate people.
We're emotional creatures.
And yeah, in the moment, sometimes it's hard to kind of understand all that.
I mean, like you go back 10, well, I don't know, even 20 years ago, which the internet wasn't as famous.
But then, well, then was my teammate.
He won the championship in the same year and told Michael, thank you and took off and left, went to chip, won the first race of the year against us.
Like it was a big deal.
If it was down today, like you'll be the, I don't know.
So, like you said, those are circumstances that we all, at the end of the day, and I'm not joking.
I think it's good for the sport.
Look at the talk of four wheel bus bucks.
No, not four wheel bucks and clever wheel bucks.
You know what I mean?
But you know, that's, it's all good.
And I replied to some of the fans and then some people, it's funny how they get really brave and aggressive.
Until you reply.
Everybody's brave on the internet.
And then I replied, but not, not like mad, but like, well, and then they go, no, but I'm a big fan.
You know, I'm like, well, if you're a big fan the next time, how about you say to K?
I'm with you, you know, but it's all good.
I do have one question.
I have one thing that I know a lot of people kind of raised my brow at and so curious to shed some light on it.
Sunday after the race, you know, you have to sit in a press conference and answer some questions.
And some of them are like, yeah, you know, Christian's still in the conversation.
And then 24 hours later, we're announcing other drivers.
Can you just explain the position that you're in as a team principal and why, why you have to do the things you do in that scenario?
Well, here's the thing, Hinch, we all, this is not just a racing thing.
This is a business thing, right?
How many things happens behind the scenes that you can't really talk about it in the moment, right?
In respect to people that didn't know yet, my own team, because yes, rumors this and that, but until this was not pan down, which at that time, it was not.
It was a grade.
Right.
But that means nothing, right?
We all know that.
Correct.
And now we want to get into, oh, here's the line.
Like I have not gotten, I'm not in charge of that.
I think you guys know who is and maybe happen, which I didn't even ask.
Actually, good question.
When I went to the press conference, I honestly wasn't even worrying about that.
It was the first 12 of the team.
Patou had a massive win because, and not because of Christian.
No.
Christian made a mistake and Patou had one chance and he did it.
He needed that.
Forget about the situation with Christian.
None of that.
They race clean.
I wasn't worried about.
And actually, during that time, until it was done, I give you an example that in 2013, they announced me Saturday in Houston to be Darius and Dixon's teammate.
Sunday, Darius gets hurt and retired and I actually took his spot.
What about this?
For God forbid something would happen.
And then I go, no, no, no, yeah, we signed Dixon.
So Christian is actually out.
Why Christian is in play?
Because we had an agreement.
He was in the contract and I did not have, yes, the intention.
It was the word, it was the talk.
Officially, it was not.
Then was not.
So then I left the press conference.
I got the text.
Zack is, he's very lengthy on his tax done.
That was there.
So, and what did I do?
I looked straight to go see Christian, which he wasn't available because he was already gone.
So I pick up the phone and call.
Now, could I tell Christian that the deal was over?
I could.
But a business decision is nobody knew we were announcing on Monday.
I have not spoken to the team.
I have not.
So what did I do?
I released Christian form his option.
You can argue if that is dirty or not clear enough or he was still in play the last time I spoke.
But also, hypothetically, this was in the situation.
If I couldn't speak, either I should not show up there or otherwise I was going to have to deny because, you know, like, I have, like, let's say you have an employee that you're thinking about, you're going to let this guy go.
You're going to fire Tim, you know, because Tim, thank God.
I get it.
I get it.
I'd be sad, but I get it.
In three weeks, but you're still going to the process, isn't that?
Tim, walk into your office three weeks prior to this.
Am I getting fired?
Are you going to really say yes?
You're going to have to navigate that, right?
Yeah, I do.
I do ask James that every week.
And that, I don't know if I answer your question, but that's yes.
No, I think it's, yeah, I think it's important because, again, I understand some of the complexities of these situations, right?
And they do have to be handled delicately.
And it's not as easy as people on the internet make it seem.
So I just, I wanted to give you the opportunity to sort of explain that one because I know that was one that a lot of people had questions about.
Yeah, I mean, I got called.
In the immediate aftermath.
Oh, yeah.
Then just, you know, by my own driver.
Oh, yes.
Sorry, unrelated.
You in fact are getting fired.
Oh, okay.
All right, cool.
The good news is, is your severance doesn't exist.
You won't have to worry about paying any taxes on it or anything like that.
I hear the nines open.
We've been, we've been, we've been saying that Dixon was going to Dale coin racing for like five years now, six years now.
So we were close.
We were close.
We got, we nailed it.
Really?
Chip, but really be on that one, Tony.
Yeah, we actually had a pretty big, we had a pretty big bet on Tim.
What's that website?
You can bet on anything.
Kelsey.
Kelsey.
Something like that.
One of those.
Bet on that.
It's to your point.
And yeah, I got, I've got called a liar because of that.
But I mean, that's the toughest part of the business.
Sometimes you can't talk.
And if that's a lie, it's then, then I imagine it's, it's harder for someone that's been on the other side of it too.
But like, you got to play the part.
You got to play the role that you're in today.
And so that's the, that's correct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, hey man, look, we really appreciate you a taking the time on what's been, I'm sure very hectic day for you.
No, I'm in my, I'm in my bank cave today.
I do.
I did notice that.
What, what we got going on back there?
Show the people.
What do we have in there?
I took my first, my frustrations out of, you know, that's one of my Sims or I'm being put together this motion Sim.
And then you can see this, all the Sims back there.
And yeah, some of my trophies, like some, I love myself here, you know, like in all my cars and, you know, so my natural guitar.
Oh, I always wanted one of those.
I'm stopping by next time.
I'm not, I'm not waiting for an invite.
I don't have a SIM anymore.
So I'm going to need like the password to get in.
So anytime I need to jump on I-Racing, I can just come play.
There is seven of them here.
Anytime you want to come, come over.
Beauty.
You want to own their home?
I'll send it to you.
Actually, it doesn't look like you have a lot of time.
So I would strongly advise you at that time.
I have some room, Tony, if you're getting rid of them.
Not while Tim, you're getting fired.
I don't want to waste the SIM.
So I'll have more employees.
This is for employees only, bro.
That was a special deal for employees only.
But we appreciate by that team.
True.
True.
But I'm on this team.
I'm still on team off track.
You're no longer on that either.
Unfortunately.
We are going to need you to continue to edit pro bono for the next three to six years.
But then we'll talk about next steps.
That sounds good.
DK, again, thanks so much, buddy.
Really appreciate it.
Enjoy your weekend off.
I hope you actually get to do that.
And we'll see you in Nashville.
And we look forward to not just the rest of this season
and what you guys can accomplish, but what the future holds.
Thank you.
Thanks, guys.
This has been Off Track with Hinch and Rossi.
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About this episode
Tony Kanan joins Hinch and Rossi to break down the IndyCar driver shakeup: Dixon and Rosenqvist coming to the team at the expense of Christian Lundgaard and Nolan Siegel. Kanan draws a sharp line between “not renewing an option” and “firing,” then tackles the bigger question of why the moves happened and how they were shaped by contract timing, seat availability, and team performance pressure. He also revisits past roster decisions, injuries, and strategic gambles—arguing the team’s recent results justify the direction, even if the optics are brutal.
Original notes
Friend of the show and team principal Tony Kanaan walks Hinch through the shake up in the lineup for Arrow McLaren next year, how the decisions came to be, and how he's handling the opinions about it.
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