Ultimate Automotive Playground — The Carmudgeon Show w Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep. 192
The Carmudgeon Show
Ultimate Automotive Playground — The Carmudgeon Show w Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep. 192
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Car
Dodge Viper
Car
Porsche 718 Cayman GT4
The Porsche GT4 is a sporty car designed for performance on the track. The 2021 version is known for being fast and fun to drive, making it popular among car enthusiasts.
Company
Discount Tire
Discount Tire is a company that sells tires for cars and provides services related to tires. They are popular for offering good deals on tire purchases.
Company
Tire Rack
Tire Rack is a website where you can buy tires and wheels for your car. They have many options and reviews to help you choose the right ones.
Company
America's Tire
America's Tire is a store where you can buy tires, mostly found in California. It's similar to Discount Tire but has a different name in that region.
Part
tires
Tires are the round rubber parts that help cars move and grip the road. They are very important for keeping the car safe and driving well.
Company
Fredestine
Fredestine is a brand that makes tires, especially for performance cars. They are known for making good quality tires that help improve how cars handle.
Car
Volkswagen Egolf
The Volkswagen e-Golf is a car that runs on electricity instead of gas, making it better for the environment. It's similar to the regular Golf but has a battery instead of an engine, which means you can charge it at home or at charging stations.
Car
Alfa Romeo Sprint
The Alfa Romeo Sprint is a stylish little sports car that people love for its good looks and fun driving experience. It's a classic car that many collectors appreciate.
Car
Lancia Delta
The Lancia Delta is a small car that was really popular for racing in the past. People love it because it looks cool and is fun to drive, especially on winding roads.
Term
off-road
Off-road means driving on rough, unpaved paths instead of regular roads. Some cars are built to handle these tough conditions better than others.
Car
Jeep
Jeep is a car brand that makes tough vehicles meant for driving on rough paths. They are popular for off-roading and adventure driving.
Concept
rock crawling
Rock crawling is a type of off-road driving where you drive over big rocks and rough terrain. It needs special vehicles and skills to do it safely.
Car
BMW 330Is
The BMW 3 Series is a fancy car that's known for being fun to drive and comfortable. It's popular among people who want a mix of luxury and sportiness in a smaller car.
Car
BMW 330i
The BMW 330i is a sporty car that combines comfort with good performance. It's part of the BMW 3 Series, which is popular for its fun driving experience.
Term
all-wheel drive
All-wheel drive means that all four wheels of the car get power from the engine. This helps the car grip the road better, especially when it's wet or slippery.
Company
Michelin
Michelin is a company that makes tires for cars and other vehicles. They are famous for their quality and performance, especially in racing and wet conditions.
Company
Bridgestone
Bridgestone is another tire company that makes tires for cars and other vehicles. They are known for their durable and high-quality tires.
Car
Audi Allroad
Car
Audi A6 Allroad
The Audi A6 allroad is a special version of the A6 that can handle rougher roads and has more space inside, making it good for adventures.
Car
Renault Wind
The Renault Wind is a small car that can turn into a convertible, so you can drive it with the top down. It's designed for fun driving, especially on nice days.
Brand
Volvo
Volvo is a car brand from Sweden that makes vehicles known for being very safe. They have been making cars since the 1950s and are famous for their safety features.
Term
PS4
The PS4 is a type of tire made by Michelin that helps cars grip the road better, especially when going fast or in wet weather.
Car
BMW F80M3
The F80 M3 is a fast and sporty version of the BMW 3 Series, known for its powerful engine and great handling, making it popular among car enthusiasts.
Term
treadwear rating
Treadwear rating tells you how long a tire's tread is expected to last. A higher number means the tire should last longer, but it doesn't always mean it's better for performance.
Term
EPA highway estimate
The EPA highway estimate is a number that tells you how many miles a car can go on one gallon of gas when driving on the highway. It's a way to compare how fuel-efficient different cars are.
Term
treadwear prediction
Treadwear prediction is an estimate from tire makers about how long the tires will last before they wear out. It helps you know when you might need to buy new tires.
Car
Lotus Amira
The Lotus Emira is a new sports car that is designed to be very light and fast. It's made for people who love driving and want a car that feels exciting and responsive on the road.
Car
Ford Crown
The Ford Crown Victoria is a big car that many police departments used because it's strong and reliable. It's also popular as a taxi, so you might have seen one driving around town.
Term
horsepower
Horsepower tells you how powerful an engine is. The higher the horsepower, the faster and more powerful the car can be.
LIVE
Okay, welcome to the car magic show. Jason is walking over to a viper chair, and I am, that's Jason Camisa. He's making, he's rolled himself off into a blue end. This episode is brought to you by Diet Coke. You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh. An ice-cold Diet Coke isn't just a break. It's your chance to catch your breath and save for a moment that's all about you. Always refreshing, still the same great taste. Diet Coke, make time for you time.
Always the clown. Okay, I'm Derek Tim Hifett Scott, that's Jason Camisa, and this episode of the car magic show is about tire testing at a dedicated facility from. Hi, hello, I'm back. Tyraq, which is actually not who's doing it. Tyraq's facility is a North Tyraq discount tire, which is now the same company, which we will discuss momentarily. That's not very in the lead. Did I give away too much? I didn't hear you. I was over there rolling around.
Okay, well, we're going to talk about tire testing facility visits and tires generally, a common car margin subject, which I think is underserved, but over important. Here, here. Now, serviceable P plus. Thank you.
Oh, well, welcome to the nap mogen show.
We are recording. I could have gone in. Okay. Find by me.
This episode of the car magic show is brought to you by Biper Chairs, even though the Viper Chairs are not here, they are very dramatically over there in the background.
You know, it looks like one of those wire frames of a car where they're just sort of starting on the packaging and modeling that part out. It doesn't look like much of a car.
It doesn't. Unfortunately, we only have black walls in those are black chairs, so there's not much contrast. However, Viper Chairs was started by two brothers who are car guys.
Based in Wisconsin, these products are US made and have industrial grade foam and all metal construction, except for the parts that are foam, obviously.
It could be metallic foam. We don't know. Have you done an analysis? I haven't. No, but it based on sitting on them, it doesn't feel like the foam is made of metal.
Great, zinc coated hardware and four inch industrial grade casters and their line includes chairs, tools, creepers, fans and tool cart. Actually, they should have never put fans and tool next to each other because
I wanted to combine fans and cart, which would be fan cart. They probably won't like that. From April 11th through June 22nd, Viper will be giving away 2021 Python green Porsche GT4. If every $5 you spend at Viper industrial.com, you'll get entered for a chance to win the GT4 plus $15,000 in cash to pay to change the color to Viper.
It's dark. Full rules and details at Viper industrial.com. Where if you use the coupon code? Carmage and you save $50 or $50 bucks. That's some, that's some serious buckage.
Well, a word is now. Anything anything is a word if you word it. That's how French started. We are going now from France to Texas.
As one does as one does in October of last year. Some time ago, I never mind precisely how much how long precisely a long time ago. I got an email from a PR person who was like, Hey, would you like to come out to a tire testing facility in Texas? And I said to myself, self tire testing means tire abuse, which means burnouts, donuts, skidding, off-roading and all kinds of other shit.
I'm in Texas means Texas, which you need to behave or I'll get shot. For those who live in Texas, I'm joking. But you've never been shot in Texas. I assume I've never been shot in Texas.
In most stories for another day. Yes, and so I thought, Oh, this is great. I'm going to this is how this is how stupid I am.
I'm like, I'm going to go there and I'm going to get to beat up some cars and learn about some cool tire stuff. And I'm going to get to meet all of these people from discount tire because they are the competitor to tire rack.
And then when I got there, I was looking at the list of attendees that I'd be meeting with. And there was somebody from tire rack that I know. And I was like, Look at this shit. Why is he going to be here?
I can tell by the look on your face, you don't know this either. Correct. They're the same. Oh, yes, they do. They are now. That's right. Until somewhat recently, it wasn't the last two, three, four years. Something like that. Yes, they are the same company.
Yeah, so discount discount tire owns tire rack, which I did not know and sun-setted moonlit it or whatever shut down discount tire direct, which is how I knew of them, because that was the other place you went.
And they left in existence America's tire, which was their like physical brick and mortar manifestation come to find out I did not know this, but the discount tire is a store chain.
We don't have them here. Here they're called America's tire, probably for some trademark or some local. I don't even know we are more America than discount.
But I mean, I love how like word like tire nerds and carnards. And I don't think anyone realizes that discount tire is tire rack now and whatever.
Yes, I'd forgotten that this tire is discount tire. So the reason they brought us out is just a bunch of journalists that they brought out was to introduce us to Treadwell Research Park.
Treadwell imaginatively named well actually the park is named after this product called Treadwell, which is actually really interesting. And this, all right, this sounds like an ad, it's not.
But I actually thought the whole thing was really interesting. Tyreck does they have their testing facility in bend.
Bend over, bend Oregon, bend something self-bend in the end. I knew there was some sort of qualification from the bend.
They have a testing facility that I'm I think some YouTubers have filmed that and I know car magazines have conducted tests there and whatnot.
Discount tire has this facility in Texas that they bought. I believe it was again six months ago. Good year. They bought it from someone.
And now that the two companies are combined, they can use both year round because the Indiana turns into snow and the Texas one probably doesn't.
The whole point of these testing facilities is independent testing instrumented testing of tires. And I think that's really important.
I've leaned on for years, Tyreck's independent tests, including when Fredestine sponsored a couple episodes of this podcast.
We have yet to do that sort of the big follow-up episode, but what we said to them was just give us the tires.
Like we want to experience these things so we can talk about them. But our limited experience, for example, we were talking.
I have Fredestine Quadrax on EGolf and the Cabrilay. You have it on the service wagon.
And they are 129. And I have some other ones on the 221. And I have a lot of sprint classics over the years.
I have on two cars now and they were transformative on the rover. And it turns out Jake just bought a set of Fredestines for his wife's.
I'm sorry.
Cross track. Quad track. Quad track.
No, I don't. Subaru quad track.
We shall not speak of Subaru's on this podcast. But there is no...
We have all are experiencing these tires in the greater San Francisco Bay Area, which is its own geography and its own climate.
Although in the Bay Area you go six minutes in every direction and the climate can be completely different.
That's all true.
It doesn't minus 40 here.
It's not typical.
Not typical. But you never know.
And so there really is no substitute for instrumented testing.
Treadwell is this sort of catch all idea of taking not only the instrumented testing that's done at these testing facilities, but also real world customer data.
And this is what I didn't realize.
So as we said, Tyraq is now the...
This company's direct...
God dammit, you're disgusting.
Flash plush you.
Thank you.
The online direct to consumer shipping is Tyraq and the brick and mortar is the discounted Tyra stores, i.e. America's Tyra stores.
And so they've launched this product called Treadwell that is basically just a big database that keeps track of real world customers.
So when you are looking at Tyraq.com and seeing the ratings where there'll be a star rating, is that that's what it's based on?
No, I don't think they're integrated yet.
Don't quote me on this. I'm sorry for taking so long people at Treadwell.
But I believe they are not...
I remember correctly, they're not yet integrated.
But so Treadwell, when you go into one of the stores and you go into one of the discounted Tyra stores, they have this little device they showed us.
And you come in for free rotations as part of the service when you buy Tyraqs as you get free rotation.
And if you don't buy Tyraqs and then you still get free patching...
I don't know this. I've never been to an America's Tyraq. I didn't realize it was the same company.
Yeah.
I mean, if you need a Tyraq patch, even nail or something, just take it to them and they'll fix it for free.
What's in it for them?
Whatever I just said. Affinity, but also publicity.
Like, it's a good thing to get people into the store and be like, these people are all right.
I think they are focused in a way that a lot of good consumer brands are on customer experience.
And they sort of seek to differentiate on that basis.
And so they seek to provide a high level of service and end up with high NPSs and net promoter scores so that people will speak favorably of them and recommend them.
It's just brands that seek to make people happy.
The Costco's of the world, you know, any brand that people feel really strongly favorably about that they promote by word of mouth.
And that's, I think, the goal.
At the end of the day when you're selling Tyraqs, what are we like?
The biology center? That you're coughing, sneezing, coughing.
I'm having...
I don't know what you're having.
Musin X.
It's good to say that nighttime sniffling, daytime, whatever we could take an out of the room.
Daytime car budgeting.
Yeah.
I am recovering from strep throat.
Zero stars do not recommend.
That is my...
That's a low NPS then.
Low NPS.
But at the end of the day when you're selling Tyraqs, there's a finite number and it's actually not that big of a number of different tires you can buy.
And different brands you can sell.
Depends, yeah, on the size.
But sometimes if you have...
I mean, for me, I am always looking at weird sizes.
So there's like four options or two...
Well, that's what I mean.
It's not a huge selection.
But if you are getting a normal size and you probably have like a 30, 40, 50 options.
Yeah, but maybe not that many brands.
So my point is there's a finite number of tires, tire producers.
And so if you're going to differentiate yourself then to your point it probably should be on customer experience.
Sure.
But the...
What is actually in it for the discount tire stores when you come in for that free tire?
They are that free patch if you've purchased the tire there.
They know from your odometer reading how many miles you have on your tires and they know your make model.
And that's the sort of scam if there is.
There's no scam at all.
Right, it's just the value of consumer data.
Exactly.
They're gathering consumer data on your cart.
And this is really interesting in your particular geographical area.
Turns out now that they can start aggregating this amount of information,
that geography plays a huge role in actual real world tire life expectancy in terms of tread.
And they used Western Pennsylvania versus Nebraska as one example.
And there's almost a 20% delta in how long tires last.
What?
Well, there's aggregate.
So there's different types of pavement.
Plus, you know, I know from living there, Western Pennsylvania roads are shit.
There's a trend.
There's a trend probably also.
Huge amounts of hills.
It's very, very hilly.
And so obviously you're going to wear your tires more,
trudging up a hill and then breaking on the way down.
Well, and hills often imply roads that have more corners also.
Ta-da.
So yeah, so they can now start to feed all of this stuff in
and start to predict real world life expectancy for your tires based on not only your geography,
but also your, your make model of vehicle, and then adjusted for your driving style.
So like you go in, let's say every, every 3,000 miles,
have your tires rotated over a course of 10 years.
They're the little, little treadmill computer guys going to be like,
this motherfucker drives like lunatic.
He goes through tires four times faster than everyone else.
Oh, and he also lives in a part of it.
Can you get a percentile score?
Like can we, can we compete for a superior or inferior scores of tire consumption?
I'm sure you're good.
I'm interested.
Yeah, but I sort of love it.
Did you ever drive a car to go?
This was like one of those, like leave a car, take a car thing,
like they do in some cities with bicycles.
They did it with smart cars.
And certain cities had these.
And you basically, if you have this thing, you can pick up a car,
and it'll show you on the app where one is parked,
and you drive it to wherever you're going, and then you leave it there.
And it's like the way that you do with bicycles or whatever.
It's like an Uber you drive yourself, and then the car is available for someone else to take.
Anyway, they had like the infographic thing in the car based on how you were driving.
And like if you were driving gently, then it would be like trees and sunshine,
and it would get smoggy if you drove like an asshole,
and then like squirrels and trees would start dying and stuff.
Anyway, it was like a score to it.
I was hoping you were going to say that basically your score is so low
that they asked you to leave the country or something.
No, I would never.
But anyway, I feel like if they would score consumers on tire consumption pattern
that there would definitely be some gamification component that could be...
I am thrilled if I get 12,000 miles out of tires.
I think most people are not thrilled.
My key is to sell a car before going through a set.
Well, my goal is to wear the tread out before the rubber compound goes.
I don't want 10-year-old tires, so they had better be bald.
And if one of my cars goes 2,000 miles a year, well, that's 20,000 miles?
No, then at least I know I'll be through those tires before they're five years old.
And I get to experience something else.
As opposite as an spectrum given that I never sell anything clearly.
But anyway, I thought the whole thing was interesting.
It was also a lot of fun because...
Yes, what happens there?
Well, okay, so they...
I don't remember how many acres it was.
I have a little brochure that I probably should have done my homework recently.
Nearly 900 acres of various surfaces.
So the first thing they did was throw us in jeeps and make us do off-roach it.
And they, I think, they planned this correctly where they're like,
okay, well, we know you flew all the way from Texas to Texas
and you're going to be tired and bored and you don't want tech presentations.
So here go fucking crazy on this dirt road.
So they had...
They have a series of dirt roads that are basically rally stage,
or it's what we all turned it into.
Jeeps slide around really well.
They're rear drive.
What kind of jeeps were they?
These are Ford over English.
So we did sliding around on that for science, obviously.
And then there was like a deep sort of sand kind of area,
like a little circle track that was deep sand.
And then a mud slash water feature thing like basically
you're driving through and out of a small pond.
And then rock crawling.
There was sort of like a lot of that sort of rugged stuff
which doesn't translate to what I typically do on a daily basis,
but they do actually do testing over there.
The big area was this massive wet skid pad.
Oh my god, this is my favorite place on earth.
Skid pad.
It was huge.
I mean, I probably should look it up to...
They might say in here how big it was.
It was enormous and they had a...
It has sprinklers so that there's a constant depth of water.
So the California Highway Patrol has one of these
and they turn on the sprinklers and it's so much fun.
It was amazing.
First of all, I was, of course,
because I made completely fascinated by how the hell they recover
the water, treat it, and then research.
And what I wanted no more than anything which they couldn't tell me
was how many megawatts of energy does it take to run the pumps?
Because you're sort of standing on the side and I'm pretty sure
I took a video of it, which will be an insert.
If I can find it, if it comes out of my archive
because it's just so long ago,
seeing how much water was running down this very, very, very gently,
I guess it must be very gently sloped, sort of Skidpad,
and into the drains.
And you're like, you got to move...
Like, I have a little water feature in my backyard
and I have a lot.
I have 2,800 gallon an hour pumps that are 1,000 watts
and that would be like one little trickle compared to like...
So it must be like hundreds of horsepower
worth of electricity to circulate all this water.
And it's all like, there's on-site reservoirs
and they have both reservoirs and tanks
and pumping system all over the ground.
It's pretty wild.
The WET VDA in Road Course, the VDA is 800 feet by 800 feet.
That's a big area.
And so we did...
That's like...
Yeah.
Well, quarter miles, 1320.
So it's a football field which is 900 feet.
All right.
Hold on.
What am I talking about?
100 yards.
200 is 300 feet.
Yeah.
So it's three football fields long by three football fields wide.
So it's three times three.
It's nine...
Roughly the area of...
Call it 7.9 or 8.2 or something.
Football fields.
Yeah.
It's on a one degree slope.
Then there's a WET handling course,
which is on there that is between 1.75 and 2.25 millimeters
of water depth.
So not enough to hydroplane.
Right.
But enough to reduce the coefficient of friction.
That was so cool.
And it had two BMW 330i's.
Initially, I thought they were...
They were all of the drive, which is kind of embarrassing
because I had like an instructor on the car with me.
And I'm like, wow.
God, these all of the drive systems feel so good.
And he's like, it's weird.
I have you idiot.
But I was on a Michelin that just didn't care that it was WET.
It was like, oh, it's WET.
I'm just going to do exactly the same thing I do in the drive,
just with less squealing and maybe 10% less grip.
Then I got into a bridge stone.
Which kind of Michelin's were they?
Oh my god.
Were they four S's or AS?
I think they were AS fours.
No.
No.
I think they were PS four S's.
This was six months ago.
And I could look through my photos, but it'll take a long time.
I will have a photo that I can do an insert.
They were aggressive.
And there was a bridge down there that was...
It was so cool to be able to just really feel this back to back.
Because we know this from being out on the road
that the way Michelin's break away,
I always describe them as like all season tires.
They sort of have grip, grip, grip, grip.
And then they have less grip.
Bridge stones, and I've been a bridge stone boy for decades.
I love a lot of my bridge stones.
I don't want to drive any of my bridge stone tire equip cars in the rain.
Because it's grip, grip, grip, ice.
They just break away.
They have much better steering response off center.
Much sharper steering feel.
You get a lot more high frequency stuff coming through.
But the result, the flip side of that is break away characteristics that are not...
Do a concern.
Do a concern.
Yes.
I also learned while we were there that interestingly,
I didn't realize that snow and rain traction are opposing.
Yes.
I remember this because I rented in Germany in September
an Audi A6 all-road on snow tires.
And when it's...
I was like, oh, this is good enough.
I guess if it starts raining and it started raining,
I was like, what the fuck?
This is terrifying.
I hate this.
And then I've like poked around a little bit.
And I was like, oh, I see.
So snow tires are terrible in the rain,
which they're very concerning.
Yeah.
I mean, I have driven with the wind track pros on the minivan.
I drove that in the rain.
I didn't think anything of it.
They were good.
They're definitely compromised.
The more aggressive the compound and tread design is in the snow,
the worse its performance will be in the way.
And I didn't realize those two were at odds.
I only knew that because I had an experience that made me...
This car is super sketchy.
And then I started doing some research about it and learned
that it was in fact the case.
And then it wasn't something that was specific to the circumstances.
Intuitively, I would have thought one helps the other.
Yeah, me too.
That's why I thought enough to look it up and be like,
I'm just going on here because I'm concerned.
Yeah, interesting.
Then there was a breaking test that we did that was...
There was one dry and one wet.
And the differences between different tires are like...
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You know, the impact...
No impact on one tire could be literal death and another.
And we sort of experienced that firsthand between different grades of tires.
Again, in that case, Michelin...
Every test that we did was a Michelin versus a something else.
And it was pretty...
How was that?
I don't know.
It's probably just what they chose for the day or what was available.
Or what was the largest difference.
And in that case, I think that was a Michelin...
Like a PS...
I think the wet might have been AS...
All seasons.
Because this I remember was PS4 versus a non-performance...
Like ultra-touring tire.
Is this just like that comparison?
Have you seen these comparisons that Jason Fensky's been doing with Continental?
Where it was like a diesel manual PT cruiser on good tires versus an F80M3 on budget tires?
That was like the PT cruiser was in some...
Most circumstances, faster on wet course.
Mind blowing, what a difference tires make.
Is it though...
No, I guess not.
It's just how much it can equalize.
It's the great equalizer.
Well, it was fun in that video specifically,
which I just watched a couple of days ago.
It was watching the pro driver who was setting the protester
from that facility who was setting the lap times,
fight the M3 on the shitty tires,
and then just go through with no steering corrections at all in the PT cruiser
and just leave it for dead.
And then Fensky looped the...
He didn't loop one of them.
He looped the M3.
I mean, that's exactly the environment to do it in.
Well, that car is also uncontrollable in the dry.
Yes.
And he put it in the wet.
He didn't tell us what tires those were.
I know he purposely left it out,
but he said they were neither like bottom of the barrel,
mutual matcha, whatever,
nor were they like a string tires.
They were highly rated...
He painted it off for a bunch of clues
that if someone were a severe tire nerd could've tried out...
I couldn't find him.
Oh, really?
Yeah, so it was like 420 treadwear
and they were marketed as summers
and they were these sizes.
But they were like budget type of tires.
I don't think they were.
I think they were mid-grade.
And I wouldn't look and I couldn't find a match.
And mid-grade equals budget to me
because it's not a Michelin.
Or a Fredestine, of course.
Which saved your ass on that last rally.
Did I saw the video of you driving like a...
I was using the full capability of the tires
and also then some of the...
That is all true.
Sidewall, I think you used the...
Yes, the goals to not be able to read what brand of tires
they were afterwards.
You're embarrassing, yeah.
And then of course there's a dry handling track, whatever.
I found the data gathering side of that very interesting
where you can really start to look for geographical differences.
And people say all the time...
The problem with tires is that
people will use the treadwear rating
as a measure of performance.
Which it's not.
And race series to this, for example.
So you have to have at least a 200 treadwear tire.
They are correlated in some respects.
But all else being equal, but all else is not equal.
Exactly.
And the idea there is that they're indexed
also so that a tire with a treadwear rating of 400
should last twice as long as a tire with a treadwear rating of 200.
But every manufacturer does their own test.
This is not some sort of government certification
or standardized certification.
Oh, really?
I didn't know that.
They all can do their whatever they want.
So they're not...
Mine's 1,000.
Yeah, mine's 1,200.
Mine's 1,202.
I mean, it's like horsepower in no one's.
Yes, right.
Yeah, and so I really like the idea
that they're looking at real world.
And I hope that treadwell winds up
this sort of brand starts to make this information publicly available.
Like, hey, for the record.
In the same way that like car and driver now does,
they're range testing for EVs.
Right?
And so they're looking at what sort of discrepancy
is there in terms of percent.
How many percent off of the EPA highway estimate there is?
I think that'd be great to say, hey, look,
FYI, Kumo tends to do, okay,
where they'll come in at like 80% of their treadwear prediction.
But like handcook, they're worn out in 12 miles.
Like I'm making that up, I don't know.
But you know, I have a problem with handcooks.
Yes.
I have a bone to pick.
I have a tread to pick with handcook tires.
Good luck.
So what are the exercises you do there?
You did wet, wet sliding about in rear-wheel drive cars.
Breaking, and then there was the dry handling track.
Actually, it was fun because I did it in Lotus,
this Amira four-cylinder.
Was that your first time driving one of the two-pedal four-cylinder?
Yeah, there was.
And I immediately got in and I was like,
this is all the wrong noise, just the start,
like the injectors ticking at idle.
And I'm like, no.
And then drove it, and it's terrible.
Is it, what?
So the V6, you would choose the V6?
Why the fuck would you have an automatic Lotus?
Number one.
And if you were going to have an automatic Lotus,
maybe you don't have a left leg.
Fine.
You do it.
Why the fuck would you have a four-cylinder turbo
from a Mercedes?
All you hear in the car,
besides terrible noises from the engine department,
is the same wave file that every other
goddamn car company makes.
It was fast, handled well.
I got screamed at by the instructor,
lady, who was like,
doesn't like, she's a tire.
She was a tire tester and not a racer.
It did not understand apexing.
And so I sort of came in
apex to corner and she's like,
you need to be centered in the lane.
It's like, oh, sorry.
This is why I could never be a tire tester.
Like, you know, I could test, you know,
I could do braking tests, but the idea
that you have to be perfectly centered in the lane
on a racetrack.
Okay, it's not a racetrack.
It is a test track, and it's there for the,
you know, to evaluate the tire's ability
to tire, to tire.
Huh.
Have you ever done any sort of stuff on improving ground?
No, just the exercise on the skid pan
in a Ford Crown Victoria.
How did you get to the police thing?
A front of mine was an instructor there.
And so we did some demo laps in the charger V8s,
which the cages, like it's,
which is basically just drifting the whole thing.
And then we did skid pan, as well,
in a Crown Vic with bald tires,
which was incredibly fun.
In the rain.
No, you turn on the sprinklers,
and then you just get, wait for it,
it's like a trough, basically,
where the lanes have curbs that are high enough
to contain a certain depth of water.
So it's a pull.
It's a kitty pull.
It's a, I don't know, maybe it's an inch deep
or something like that, maybe?
I don't know.
I don't know how deep it was.
Anyway, and then you, he's just like,
okay, lock it in second,
and then just like start sliding the car around
and it was, it was very fun and illuminating.
Slighting or hydroplating?
Slighting.
Slighting.
The goal is to have a low stakes environment for,
so the California hydro patrol has this thing called
the Emergency Vehicle Operators Course Evoc,
and they teach their cadets,
but also like a lot of law enforcement officers
who are, you know, they don't have a facility like that,
they contract with CHP to teach their local police forces
to learn how to drive,
and so they'll run them through some version
of some of the same courses and exercises.
So they have a thing that's set up like a city grid
to teach them how to drive around in the city
at very high speeds without losing the car
for the conditions,
so that's why you drive the way you do.
I mean, I didn't go through the full course.
All I did was the, we just,
they just graduated early.
You tested out of it.
They're like,
we've seen him drive around San Francisco.
So like they teach you how to do 90 degree corners
in a city type environment,
and they'll have like soft objects
to not destroy the car.
And they have all these clapped out crown vicks
because they're real-wheel drive
that they teach them how to do this.
And it was a fun exercise,
but I want to do that.
The Skid Pan was my favorite
because you just have this really low speed ability
to just slide around as much as you want
without doing any real harm.
It's like those of us who grew up in places with snow.
Yes, it's exactly equivalent to that,
except for it's allowed in sanctioned by law enforcement
instead of frowned upon upon.
Can we discuss this word pan?
Because I always thought Skid Pan was just a misspelled
way of writing Skid Pat.
I think a pan has ability to contain
a certain amount of water to reduce
to a skill in friction,
as opposed to a Skid pot,
which has very high sides.
And then the car turns off
because of water ingestion.
And then as opposed to a Skid skillet,
which is flat and griddle.
Skid griddle.
Skid griddle.
Yeah, I've never called it a Skid Pan.
Skid Pan, I think,
is when it's designed to fill with water.
Okay.
And people call it Skid Pan rating.
I've heard people say that.
No, no, no, no.
Like, you know, when they're talking about it,
it's hilarious.
Oh, I see.
Yes, no.
That was a, I think, a reference to its ability
to contain water.
I feel like this might be a CHPism.
California.
I don't know.
I don't know who else uses it.
I just know what the activity is.
And I was like, man,
if I lived in east snowware
and just had so much money,
I would build one of these
and just fuck around it all the time.
Again, but would you be able to pay for the electricity
to pump all that water in and out?
Yeah, you'd have to, I don't know,
do something clever or solar or something like that.
You'd have to have solar
with like backup batteries
and a whole reservoir system.
That's pretty cool.
I love proven routes
because they are, you know,
it is typically divided up
in four very specific purposes.
You know, you sort of imagine a world
in which you just go crazy and you can't, right?
There's a high speed oval
and then there's, you know,
high speed straightaway
and then there's sidewind stuff
and then there's breaking.
And you put it all together
and you get one of, what, you get a track day
or a back road, effectively.
But to go and do like broken pavement tests,
I love that.
That was one of the things we did
in the dry section was just hit,
a section of pavement
where you're just,
you've set the cruise at 70 miles an hour
or whatever it was
and you're just listening
and you go through,
I think it was good your tire
and then that Michelin.
And you're listening
for which sings more
over the pavement irregularities
and which one has a resonant ring.
Tire ring is when you get the boom
after you hit a bump
and it's really nice to just sort of
tune everything else
and I tend to focus on one specific thing.
And to do AB right next to each other
in identical cars prepared,
you know, the same way.
It says, really.
I think it's really cool.
And then of course,
the idea behind Treadwell is that
for the regular consumer
and I don't think this is the carmage and listener,
you'd be able to go into a store
and say,
I think you go on the website
and say, I drive like an asshole
versus I drive like, you know,
a nun, blah blah blah blah
and it will make recommendations
based on your geography
or price point, your car
and then your driving style.
And I think that's really cool.
Yeah, can you say,
I really care about breakaway characteristics
at the limit.
I mean, there should be,
so Tire rack, I think,
is the more enthusiast brand
within that,
with the corporate umbrella
and I really think Tire rack should have that.
Like I would love a filter mechanism
where I can say,
do not give me a tire
that has sudden breakaway.
Well, yeah, that's, I mean,
that's, yeah.
I'm thinking more like,
don't give me a tire
that is reported to break bands
or falls apart in two seconds.
So don't give me anything
with a Parallel logo on it.
For example, I mean,
they have that already.
You just uncheck Parallel.
Parallel.
Nothing against Parallel except Parallel.
Everything.
You know what is super weird
is that in motorcycle land,
Parallel makes some of the best tires.
Well, you read vintage car reviews
and like, it's got the new P600s
or whatever it was.
They were,
I like their vintage offerings,
like the Chintarados CN36s.
They're some cool ones.
Yeah.
And all the other Chintarados
are CN12s and everything.
I like, I love,
I think that a period correct tire
really makes an old car.
And I'm delighted to see
that Parallel and Michelin,
especially, are doing a really good job
of, and Dunlop does this,
in some sense,
especially with racing tires.
Avon, I think,
still continually makes the same tires,
so I don't know if that makes it a vintage tire,
like the CR6CZ,
but I think it's a really
impactful part of an old car's aesthetic
to have the right sort of look of tires.
I feel the same way about headlights.
Details.
Just the right details.
I thought it was the right details.
Well, like if you have Wagner halogens.
Like that came from O-O-O Riley auto parts.
Oh!
Or, I guess that's exactly what they want.
It works.
Yeah.
Like Wagner halogens
versus like beautiful corollos
or marshalls that are like,
look like jewelry by comparison.
I think it changes the aesthetic.
And I feel the same way about tires.
I mean, if I look at,
I hate to say this.
I look at a car for sale.
We've actually mentioned this before.
You look at a car for sale
and you see what tires on it.
You can very clearly judge the owner.
Of that car.
I'm always like surprised when I see a car
that looks like a sort of sad crappy car
just in the wild.
And then I'll be like,
oh, it has Michelins on it.
But this person looks like
they don't give two shits about their car.
They did give two shits about their car.
Or the manufacturer did when they bought a treadmill
and they recommended the mission.
But they could have been on special
at Costco for all.
Yes.
But it speaks volumes.
You have somebody with us,
like a 600 SEL Mercedes.
Somebody has a V12 from Mercedes.
And they have some no name.
I didn't even know what was the tire
that was on the GTI.
My niece's car that was in here.
Oh, I had to run.
They're not length longs.
They are.
I can't even remember what that was.
$54.
They're $54.
18-inch tires.
Like, I am the joke is
that they outperform the bird sounds
on the front of it,
which are just, I think, roasted
from overuse.
But from the front wheel drive burnouts.
From the previous owner, yeah.
But yeah, no.
I think tires.
So what was your main takeaway
from this experience?
What did you learn?
What was the main insight
that you gained or insights?
The most shocking insight to me
was that discount tire is the tire rack.
That was, I had no idea.
I thought, oh, this is cool.
Another tire company that tests.
That's awesome.
I mean, what I like is that they're working together as a team.
Right?
They're on the same corporate umbrella.
They had the guys who test tires in Indiana.
We're there for the same experience
to get to know this facility so that they can trade off
where, you know, if it's snowing in Indiana,
they can still do other sort of drive
with their test in Texas.
I thought that was great.
I did not know that discount tire had 1200 retail stores
across the US.
And I also did not know
that America's tire was discount tire.
Like, so those were my takeaways.
The sort of facility itself,
they had some cool equipment
that some of which they didn't let me take pictures of
because it's proprietary stuff.
But, you know, different ways they can torture tires.
They can also simulate, they can grind off tread
and simulate what, you know,
what road noise will be like at a certain,
or hydroplaning resistance can be like once they're worn.
Because they weren't just, for example,
looking at hydroplaning resistance when new.
So they'll do that test
and then do it again, shaved further and further and further.
And presumably the manufacturers of these tires
have similar or more expansive still facilities
for doing the same type of stuff.
God, you'd hope so.
Well, some of them do.
Some of them do.
Some I can guarantee you don't.
But yeah, but the nice thing is you have an independent
third party.
That's just not equalized them.
So it's not like we were talking about with tread ratings
or horsepower,
where it's just a manufacturer representing it.
And by the way, reparelli,
there are a lot of car companies
like OEM car manufacturers that use parallel tires,
including Porsche.
Ferrari still does, I think.
Forks Italia.
So, well, okay.
So you think, all right,
Italian car company,
you're going to prefer Italian tires,
but BMW uses Perrelli's occasionally.
And so clearly there must be advantages to those tires
that you have yet to,
and I perceive.
I mean, like a Trofeo,
like the Trofeo,
which is their highest performance tire,
will post a better lap time than a Cup 2.
Once.
Once.
Literally once.
One lap.
And then it's over.
And then the whole tire disintegrates.
And you have to put new ones on it.
That's a slight exaggeration.
But we...
This is not dissimilar to what happens in Formula One,
where they have engineered the tires to sort of...
It's part of the strategy.
It's one of the levers that adds drama to the sport.
Yeah.
I'm sure it's entirely possible to make a good set of tires
that lasts for an entire race.
Where F1 is concerned, I don't know.
But I will tell you that when we are filming cars,
we often ask for icons and whatever.
For drag race, a little bit less so.
But for icons, we know any track stuff.
We're just going to put these cars to the basis for quite some time.
We always ask for spare tires,
because most modern cars are stupid enough to not have a spare tire.
And one little nail will shut down an entire production.
So we almost always ask for spare tires.
If the original tires are Michelin's,
we will deal with a spare.
We'll say, all right, we just need a mounted spare
that we can put on the front or the back just to keep the production going.
If it is some other brands,
we will ask for an entire mounted set that we can swap on,
because we know we will destroy the tires
in half a day of filming or a day of filming.
And so we can just see the difference between how these tires last and not.
And it would be really nice to be able to go onto some website
and say, these tires just do not deal with abuse.
These tires do.
Look, nothing is guaranteed.
A couple of weeks ago, I showed you the picture of my mom's
Michelin pilots, all season three pluses that were destroyed.
Yeah.
And there's no reason for it.
There were the cars perfectly lined up.
Probably drives like a...
Like a woman of prestige.
Yes.
But she's not doing burnouts.
And how do you know?
Hmm.
I know.
What happened with the C43 again?
I don't like the tone of your voice.
Okay.
She wasn't doing burnouts.
She was doing 100 miles an hour everywhere.
To the point where her friends said, you know,
101 is the name of this highway Janet, not the speed limit.
Which is such a great line.
But I have never...
I have not recently,
in the last two decades been in the car with my mother where she's spun tire.
Like, she's not that bad.
She's like, not that abusive of a driver.
She does drive quickly.
But there is...
I do not understand why those tires fell apart.
They did start out their life with me doing skid pad testing.
Skid pad testing on them.
And I wonder if that sort of set the stage for them to junk later.
Tigrayed.
Yeah.
We did...
Did they get a lot of UV?
They're parked outdoors but covered.
So it's a car port.
So technically not.
But the handcooks that were on that car initially
didn't make it to the two-year mark before they cracked completely.
So maybe she's got a freaking tire testing ground that they should be in an environment
that they parking them in saltwater or something.
She's ozone.
She's got six ozone generators in that each tire.
I don't know.
It's weird.
I mean, because the AS...
She apparently needs to be studied as a use case for tire degradation
because she made a set of Michelin's even this year as well.
Yeah.
But the joke is that we have AS4s on the camera van that are two seasons in
and probably have 15,000 miles on them.
Of just terrible abuse.
Look brand new.
And I have the...
I went through a lot of AS...
of PS4s is on the eGolf.
I kept getting flats.
But they wore quickly.
12,000 miles.
12,000 miles to like two thirds of the way worn.
That's not that bad.
That wasn't that bad.
No, but...
When I was a kid, I remember my dad would be delighted if he got 10,000 miles out of a set.
Mostly on the stock tires on that eGolf.
I made it 12,500 miles on my first eGolf.
And all four of them were two...
They weren't corded, but there was no tread left after 12,000 miles.
And they were 540 treadwear rating...
ECO.
Bridgestone Ecopia EP422s.
I bet you were in the 99.9% tire of...
of lateral G use in eGolfs.
I absolutely hope I was.
First of all, I did also skip test those.
Right, let's be clear about that.
And I did this...
I had that car during COVID when known was on the roads.
And I did...
I had friends lived at the other end of a six mile stretch of a road that is...
I don't know how to describe it, other than saying stupid.
Like it should have never been built.
Yes.
And it's just...
It is nauseating as a driver's seat.
And we all...
That was our bubble over COVID.
We had dinner almost every night.
And every night I would...
Just...
You were...
Yeah, you were a qualifying pace.
Yes, qualifying pace.
And so I deserved it.
I mean, I did burnouts in that car.
I mean, I was just terrible.
It was the least car.
That's what you do.
Yeah.
But this is the joke, right?
Yeah.
What's the world's fastest car?
The rental car, yeah.
No, I was very...
I was actually very happy with those tires.
In fact, I...
This was the Ecopia EP422.
Yeah.
And I have now on...
I'm just finishing my winter tire run.
So I have the back...
I'm back to the stock wheels, stock size,
with those Fredestine quad tracks on them.
And I can't get anything close to the efficiency.
The...
The corner-of-the-field economy that I did with those birdsons.
Well, those were like...
Especially engineered low-rolling resistance.
Yeah, and actually, but when I asked Fredestine for some advice,
in Europe, they now have an efficiency grading label.
So it's A, B, D, C, A, B, C, D, and I think F.
There might be an E in there for how efficient they are
for their category.
And quad tracks are AB in Europe.
And I'm like, oh my god, these are...
This is what I want.
And when they arrive, they had a label on them.
They're C in the U.S.
So it's a different compound.
And I was hoping for...
To go just from an A to a B
because those birdsons were A's.
But I went from A to C.
And it's a meaningful range.
Huge.
Huge.
I mean, on that car, with the original tires,
I averaged 140 miles of range per charge
up from the EPA rating of 125,
just because of conditions here, I guess.
And because of how efficiently I drive.
140 down to about 110, 111.
Huge.
I mean, 30 miles is a long way to walk home
just to have more grip.
But, you know, that 110 mile range
is really more like 97 with the PS4S on it.
Which are 20 millimeter wider on a non-ego,
non-arrow wheel.
That's two inches wider.
Two inches taller.
Taller.
So.
Yeah.
Who knows?
But more importantly,
Treadwell is a thing.
I would call it tread heavily.
Tread lightly.
Yeah, tread lightly was the thing in the 90s
that was encouraging people who were off-roader
to not drive over all of creation,
just to select the parts of it.
Yeah, stick to the trail.
Yeah.
Tread heavily would be a great,
like tires, traction test.
That would be your brand.
Or tread well, tread poorly.
Or tread be gone.
For a burnout testing facility.
Okay.
Well, yeah.
Something to do.
Sorry to the discount tire people for making them wait
for six months,
but I don't think you guys suffer for that.
I just felt a little bit bad,
because they were semi-algae updates.
They were like,
you're ever going to make a post on this on your Instagram?
And I was like,
well, do you want to better put it on the car much?
Well, that was the idea for the beginning,
because once I realized, especially when I realized
that discount tire is tire rack,
oops.
I think a lot of people don't realize this.
Well, we're spreading the word.
We have spread the gospel of some more tire stuff.
Okay.
Tires are important.
All that and more insights on the Carmage and Show.
That's what we specialize in.
Thank you for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
See you next Monday.
Thank you.
About this episode
Exploring the fascinating world of tire testing, Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott dive into their recent visit to Discount Tire's Treadwell Research Park in Texas. They discuss the merging of Discount Tire and Tire Rack, the importance of independent tire testing, and the unique features of the facility, including a massive wet skid pad and various testing surfaces. The duo shares insights on tire performance, handling characteristics, and the significance of real-world data in tire selection, making for an engaging conversation filled with humor and expertise.
Original notes
Jason takes a trip to the new Tire Rack/Discount Tire/America’s Tire testing facility in Texas: Treadwell Research Park. In addition to testing grip levels on BMWs and Jeeps on a monstrous wet skid pad, off-road course, rock crawling trail and more, he discovers the many lessons to be learned by carefully studying tire wear data – including how where you live can have a huge impact on how quickly you burn through your tires!
===
This episode is sponsored by Vyper Industrial — America’s #1 rated shop chair, tool carts, and creepers, proudly made here in the US. Visit vyperindustrial.com and use code CARMUDGEON for $50 off.
===
In this episode, we learn that Tire Rack, America’s Tire and Discount Tire are all the same thing! But, more importantly, they now have a giant tire testing facility in Texas: Treadwell Research Park – an expansive property with dirt and mud trails, rock crawling, water crossings, serious grades, an absolutely enormous skid pad (that can be completely submerged in 2 mm of water in no time thanks to a pair of huge reservoirs and some seriously powerful pumps) and even a wet slalom course. Jason experienced all Treadwell had to offer behind the wheel of a 4-door Jeep Wrangler and BMW 330i and reports back.
We’ll learn that at America’s Discount Rack you can get free tire rotations (with tire purchase) and free flat repair (no purchase necessary!). But they don’t hand out these services out of the kindness of their tire-loving hearts. It’s all part of Treadwell’s plan to collect and analyze all kinds of tire wear data to help customers make informed decisions when buying new tires and make better tires. They’ll collect information about a tire’s make, model, mileage, geographic location and more to find what compounds and tread patterns are best for specific use cases and guide customers to the best choice for their vehicle, driving style, climate, and location. For instance, they have discovered that folks living in twisty, hilly western Pennsylvania go through tires 20% faster than folks living in Nebraska. Derek suggests Treadwell implement a tire wear score so enthusiasts can compare notes and compete for total tire destruction domination.
Similar to Treadwell Research Park (and Tire Rack’s other testing facility in South Bend, Indiana), Derek had the chance to experience a flooded skid “pan” at the CHP’s emergency vehicle operations course (EVOC) training grounds driving in Ford Crown Victorias and Dodge Chargers.
Jason Fenske of Engineering Explained has been on a mission to teach the world about the importance of tires, and recently pitted a F80 BMW M3 Competition on mid-grade tires against a diesel Chysler PT Cruiser wearing fresh Continentals. Science ensued.
Tires are indeed very important – and while some *coughpirellicough* will grip like no other, they tend to disintegrate in short order (and dramatically so). But they’re not all bad – the guys have kind things to say about the Cinturato CN36 and CN12. But the Carmudgeon tire of choice remains Michelins and Vredsteins, which are mounted on everything from Jason’s e-Golf, the Van, Jynah, the Ferrari 308, Derek’s R129, and even Jake’s wife’s Crosstrek. The guys will also discuss the Avon CR6ZZ, Trofeos and Cup 2s. Plus the Michelin AS3+ on Jason’s Mom’s Golf that wore down unusually quickly – this right after he had just replaced some 2-year-old cracking Hankooks with them. Perhaps his mom’s regular and sustained driving at 100 mph is to blame…
We’ll also cover cheap lighting from oh, oh, oh, O’Reilly’s, Wagner halogens, and automotive lighting gemstones from Carello and Marchal. It’s all in the details!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
The Carmudgeon Show
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