Uncovering Hidden Biases in Auto Loan Lending: Revolutionizing Loan Quality Control with InformedIQ's Tom Oscherwitz
In Wheel Time Podcast: Your Go-To Automotive Talk Show
Uncovering Hidden Biases in Auto Loan Lending: Revolutionizing Loan Quality Control with InformedIQ's Tom Oscherwitz
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Welcome to another In-Wheel Time podcast, a 30-minute mini version of the In-Wheel Time car show that airs live every Saturday morning 8 to 11 am, central Live, from Studio A and the Sugar Shack World Headquarters.
It's the In-Wheel Time car talk show The hot Sugar Shack.
It is Coming up.
We're going to talk to the VP of Legal for a company called Informed IQ and bias in lenders for auto loans.
Hello, yeah, let's do that.
Jeff has a segment on personalized license plates I think that you're going to get a kick out of.
Conrad has the racing calendar and the car clinic.
We'll also have the stories making automotive news headlines this week.
We're going to get you spit roasted right here in hot Texas.
All right, on the In-Wheel Time car talk show, howdy, along with Mike out of this World Mars King, conrad DeLong.
We always need more.
Jeff Zekin, i'm Don Armstrong.
Hey, thanks so much for joining us today And we'd like to thank also for filling in for the CEO, tom.
Tom, don't let me screw this up now.
Is it OSHAWITS?
Bullseye first time you got it right.
Well, it was only by luck That is the first time he's got it right.
And I could see that you've already got a sense of humor, so pardon us if this is not a legal course in dissertation here, not at all, not at all.
No, it's all advice.
Is such Love to talk about it.
So you're one of those guys in this company called Informed IQ.
That's kind of like in the background skunk works, shall we call it?
Back there trying to keep everybody on task.
No, you can't say that, You can't say this.
We're going to go this way.
You can't do it that way.
That kind of guy.
Right now, we're absolutely making the world work one day at a time.
That's it.
I love it.
Well, we really appreciate you taking time out of your Saturday to join us this day.
So bias in consumer lending occurs when a lender makes a decision related to a loan and denies credit or imposes nonstandard terms for reasons other than the borrower's credit worthiness.
Oh my gosh, try to untangle that web for us, would you?
Yeah, no, i mean, i think the first thing I would do is go a little broader and say you know, you know what is bias, right?
Let's get everybody on the same page on that.
So bias is basically when you make a systematic error and all the values are wrong by certain amounts.
Imagine you're measuring somebody's height and every time you measure their height they're wearing boots.
Bias is that it looks right, but every time the soles of the shoes are off right.
So I mean, you're always off by the height of the shoes.
And you know, there's a profession named Bryant Marks from Morehouse College who talked about who has bias And it said, basically, if you have a brain and you live in a society of bias, right.
So bias is something we all have.
And so when thinking about loans, you know bias comes in every part of the process.
It comes when somebody makes a loan, it comes from the dealers, it comes from consumers.
Okay, let's just say, for instance, that I am applying no, i want to buy a new car and that new car is $50,000.
Right, and my credit is kind of teetering on the edge of being able to buy that $50,000 car.
But I know I can buy a $30,000 car.
Where does the bias come in on that?
when it comes to lending money from a bank, a financial institution, right, right?
Right, where does?
the bias come in.
I think bias comes in in two places.
One, it comes in from the data and two it comes from people's discretion.
So right now, about 80% of the loans in auto are through dealers And when you go to a dealer, a lender gets dealers something called a buy rate, which is the price that they would be willing to offer to give the loan, And then there's something called a dealer markup And that's the amount of dealer can raise the price and still get the loan approved.
And the bias comes in in that little discretionary between the buy rate and the market.
The second place that bias can come in is in the loan itself.
Right So when you may give a credit score or give somebody a credit, evaluate their loan, there's bias in the data.
Is it inherent to have bias in the data?
Yeah, no, i mean, i think that's absolutely.
When I think about lending, we think about three generations of lending.
In the 1960s or 70s it was discretionary.
You guys all probably remember it's a wonderful life, yes, and you would just look at somebody and say hey you look like a good loan person.
Somebody get a loan.
I'll give you the loan.
And then in 1989, FICO invented the FICO score And basically the idea there was people are biased, so let's have computers do it.
But the problem with that was that it's like assuming the data is actually neutral.
Data isn't neutral, So now one of the issues with credit scores is that they're only as good as the data that's in them.
And then doesn't the federal government get quite involved in trying to manage this bias so that there isn't any gender race bias?
that's going on as well.
You are absolutely right.
I mean there's laws like Equal credit opportunity act, regulators like the consumer financial protection Bureau look at this stuff And in fact, this in the last couple of years there's been efforts to, you know, punish folks who haven't done right by consumers.
There was a case in New York with an auto dealership where They literally told their employees that give certain people Try to sell certain products to Hispanics and blacks because We think they're less educated and they had to pay a 1.5
million dollar fine.
There was another case in Illinois where Products, especially ancillary products, like you know, nitrogen tires and 10 in windows and Gap waivers were sold to some people and others.
And I guess the last point I would make is back in the early teens to see if we be Get a study and it found out that it, generally speaking, black and Hispanic bars were charged a couple hundred dollars more than average For dealer markups so I want to go back just a minute.
You talk about dealer markups.
So we've got We've got a Financial institution that gives the dealer The power basically to loan that money To a consumer.
Where does the markup come to the dealer on the loan?
Or I mean, does it come on, Does it be included in the price of the car?
How does that all play?
out.
So that's a really great question.
So imagine that you have a loan and the loan says The lender says hey, i'll give you this, i'll prove.
This loan is 7.5%
, but I'm willing to go to 9% and still approve the loan.
So the dealer, depending on what the consumer buys or what they with other rates are looking at, may charge it more in the money.
That increment I'm of the 7.5%
will be shared between the dealer and the lender.
So so the dealer looks at it and says, OK, I got the money for.
make sure I understand this I got the money for 7.5
.
Now I'm going to turn around and charge this guy 9.
And if he takes it, then I'm going to split the profit per se with the lending company of the point and a half of the point and a half.
Yeah right.
I think that I think you got that right And I think I mean I think part of the reason why you want discretion for the dealers, because they're they're working with different aspects of the consumer to get you know whatever else they're buying on the car or whatever the amount is.
So right you know so they can stay, so they can make money on what in the business is called the rate, the rate bump, or back in.
But they can also make money on the MSRP, because some banks will say, hey, i'm going to loan you 7.5%
up to 120% of MSRP So they can make.
they can make money in multiple places, which is why a well informed customer is the one who's going to save the most money when they go into buy a deal.
So let me ask you this, Tom What happens when the car manufacturer says 0% interest on this Chevy Blazer, If you'll buy it today and we'll run it out to whatever it is four years or?
five years or whatever.
There is no interest in the Chevy Blazer.
Oh, that's funny.
Ha ha ha.
But so that, therefore, you cut out the dealers chance to make some money off of the loan, and the only way that the dealer is going to really bump it up is through the actual sale price of the car and the ancillary Right right.
Right, you're absolutely right, and I mean, i guess if I was going to give consumers tips about how to buy a car, that's really the underlying question.
There's a couple of things you can do.
One is, you know, do research about the car you're buying ahead of time so you know roughly what the retail price is.
Two, you can consider getting a loan from your local bank or your local credit union and getting that pre approved.
Three, you know you can think about what option optional add ons you're interested in and then make sure that you're comfortable saying no if you don't want the additional ones.
And I guess another point would be to make sure you look at that contract and make sure that nothing was stuffed into your contract that you didn't want.
So there are things that consumers can do, and the other point I would simply make is that buys is just not on lending, but it's on consumers too, right?
So you know there's something called projection bias, which is that you know people tend to think about the future the way it is the present.
So if it's a warm, sunny day, you're probably more likely to buy a convertible.
Or if it's a cold day, you're more likely to buy a black car.
Or if you know it's snow, you're more likely to buy snow tires.
So people need to think about what their own biases are.
Another type of bias is what I would call anchoring bias.
So you walk into a dealer and the first car they show you is the most expensive car, right.
So you're saying, oh my God, that's the price.
And then they show you the cheaper cars later because you saw the more expensive car first.
That's your anchor, right.
It's like looking at a t-shirt and saying, hey, i'm going to charge you $75 for the t-shirt.
Then you show a $30 t-shirt and that looks cheap.
So the consumers also have to think about the own biases they bring into the showroom.
There's an emotional aspect of that.
Okay, what does AI-informed IQ do?
Sure.
So typically right now, when we're back in the day when a dealer would mark up a loan or sell the loan to a lender or show it to them, they would send a 50-page PDF to the lender and the lender would have to review it.
We've automated that process And the reason why that's interesting from a buyer's perspective is we can actually automatically check for things that could go wrong.
So, for example, in Texas there's a Dock fee of $150 requirement in the state And if that Dock fee for some reason is above $150, we can use our technology to check and say, hey consumer, hey lender, this is wrong, let's get rid of it.
Similarly, if you look at like Gap Waivers, there's a limit in Texas I'm using Texas today that you can't charge more than 5% of the amount financed for a Gap waiver.
We can check that.
So one of the advantages of automation is that you can remove some of the discretion that causes bias.
So do you sell your service to?
who do you sell your service to?
Yeah, no, it's a great question.
So we are the you know, as you said, the back office insight window for lenders, indirect letters to take these auto loans that are provided by the dealers And evaluating them.
so many of the nation's largest lenders use us to automate and process these loans, which is a win-win for everybody, right.
Because, instead of taking two weeks to find a loan, we can evaluate a loan in, you know, 15 minutes.
So you guys do the research for the consumer on and I come from a little bit of a retail side you monitor the technique in the car business called Foursquare, you know.
So in Foursquare there's four things that the dealer wants you to focus on.
He wants you to focus on one of four things Price, down payment, interest rate or term.
So all of those things or trade, excuse me So, and if they can get you to focus on one of those, they can kind of goof around on the other three and make more money on you if you're not paying attention They're going to land you on it.
Your program is trying to monitor all aspects of that.
For the consumer and for the lender saying, hey, you know, yeah, they've got you focused on your down payment, but you know you need to pay attention to what's going on over here in term and dock fees and all that other stuff where they I would say great comment.
I would just say yes, but so we do.
is we literally digitize and automate all the information on the loan And once it's digitized, we can then ask questions like does this loan have X, does this loan have Y?
So you know, the lender can make sure that, a they can fund the loan and B that is compliant with the law.
But so but you basically work with lenders, not necessarily directly with consumers.
That's correct.
You're right, you got it.
OK, so it's not a retail company, But what he's doing is giving us the information of what he does for, for instance, like if a dealer is self funding new car loans, for instance, or his bank the dealer's bank is loaning them all this money And he's basically the broker in the loan.
He's a quality control.
He's the guy.
He finds the odd, odd man out.
features of the deal, yeah.
Right.
Another way to say it guys is that when a loan It's like a market.
The banks are bidding for the loan from the dealer and they win the bid.
But once they win the bid, they still have to verify that what they bid on is what they wanted.
So they have to fund the loan.
And that's where we come in to make sure that the loan is what it's supposed to be And the loan works.
It does the right signatures, that the income from the consumer is right.
So we're really just helping the back offs to help them bet the loan.
Well, i want you to represent me as the consumer.
How do I know that the loaning the financial institution is using you?
Well, that's a great question.
I mean, i think, what our job is, you know, i think the more that we can make lending.
Here's how I would respond to that by saying the more we can automate this, the more we can remove discretion that can hurt consumers And we can put checks into our processes, which many of our clients ask for, to make sure that consumers are protected.
So, in other words, somebody like Chase let's just name that comes to mind That Chase says OK, informed IQ, i want you to make sure that the money that I'm loaning Don Armstrong is on the up and up when it comes to buying this new car.
And that is where Tom comes in and he says OK, we're going to look at this, we're going to look at that data, you look at the contract, they looked at the contract and he's going to tell Chase no, this is not right, this doesn't add up.
And red flag.
Am I correct, tom?
I mean, not only can you say my name correctly, you got that absolutely right, that's two in one day, dang, we're going to celebrate, so OK well, i mean, you know, I got to got to bring it down to my, to my level on this stuff, because that's your business And I don't know your business at all.
I had no clue about this bias in loans.
None Who was to know, because I just assumed that here I am, i make this kind of money, i got this kind of savings and this is my credit rating.
That's all I know.
And I know it's a great.
I can give you an example.
You guys might find this interesting.
Let me talk to you about a little bit about bias and data, and I'm going to talk about cars here.
So back in 2012, this is about bias and data There was a program in the city of Boston called Street Bump.
Have you guys ever heard of that?
Never, ok.
So Street Bump was this program by the city of Boston to find potholes around the city, and generally the way you find potholes is you have some guy in a truck and he's looking around and sees a pothole and covers it.
So they said, hey, let's take advantage of consumers.
And they said, let's use consumer phones.
We know that phones have sensors that can bump up and down.
So they built an app and all these people logged on to the app And they drove around the city of Boston and then they reported every time they hit a bump back to the city.
All sounds great, but what happened was that the people who download the app tended to be yuppies and young professionals.
So they only found the potholes on the streets that the yuppies drove.
So that's an example of the bias and the data right, because only certain people downloaded the app.
Right.
So that's the thing you have to be careful of.
Yeah, yuppies, oh my God, where you're getting it from So all they were doing were fixing potholes around Harvard.
That's it.
Well, you got it guys.
Well, Tom, I mean, how in the world did you get yourself into this job?
That's a dilemma.
Yeah, no, i mean, i've been working in the field of data for 20 years.
You know, and you know totally appreciate how the ordinary person buying the car, you know that it just really got to make sure that you're aware of the biases.
And I worked at the CFB for a period of time too, which is the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and looked at AI when I was working there.
So I've been playing around with bias for quite a while.
So is this your company, Tom.
I want the VP and I've, um, uh, the company right And I, i handle all the policy, i handle all the legal stuff.
Um, so it's surely not my company, but I'm happy to be there.
Well, i'll say, i mean, you're a very smart guy and we thank you very much for being able to kind of drill it down to our ignorant level when it comes to this stuff, because I mean not in a in a funny way, but truly I mean I don't know anything about?
no, you never think about it And uh, we could.
we could really get screwed very easily and not even know it, and that's the hope of some of the car dealers.
Well, I don't, yeah, just to turn you upside down and shake all the money out of you.
Well, and so he's there to help me, not get.
Well, he's there to protect the banks from from that happening to the bank And also, i just wanted to stress and I said a little before that I do think that consumers going to the store need to think a little bit about themselves too.
I mean, one other type of bias I didn't talk about is confirmation bias, which is, you know, the type of bias you have when you pay attention to what you already believe.
So, for example, say, you love four trucks, right, and so every time you hear a good stat about a four truck, you agree with it, but you disregard everything about a different type of truck.
So people just need to think a little bit about their own biases.
Right, it's not only the lenders and the dealers, but you would consume rubber a role too.
So what?
what?
the date, what the manufacturer calls brand loyalty is actually a bias towards that brand.
Right, right, you're going to think great about that because you're loyal to that brand.
Every time you hear good facts, you're going to hear it.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you today, tom.
We really appreciate you spending the time with us.
Best of luck in your career.
I don't think you need any luck.
I think you're doing just fine up there.
And listen, when I've got a question about that car loan that I'm about to get, i'm going to call you, okay.
Can't wait for it.
Hey, have yourself a great summer, tom.
Happy Father's Day, thank you.
Thank you, you bet.
Tom Osiewicz Cool, pretty cool.
Vice President of Legal for Informed IQ.
Nice, i know It's it's way beyond me, but I kind of get it, you know.
Okay, let's see.
It's that time to tell you about Jeff's little thing, and I want to tell you also about What do you want to know about Jeff's little?
thing.
Well, i mean, no, it's, it's personalized license plate, vanity plates.
Oh yeah.
We're going to get to that, but first of all let's do the race card, and I want to remind everybody that the In-Wheel Time Race Card is sponsored by Texas Nostalgia Modified Production.
Even if they didn't show up for their interview today.
Yeah, um so NASCAR is uh at Nashville on June 25th.
They're in Chicago on July 2nd.
That should be a fun race to watch The Chicago Street course.
I don't know why but they are.
Um.
All I can think of is uh, are you going to get a ticket?
You're going to get a ticket, or somebody's going to get knocked in the head or shot.
Oh, i will.
I will bet you there will be some crime going on during that.
Some, yeah Yeah Uh.
Canadian Grand Prix Formula One is this weekend They're in Zanvoort, uh next weekend.
And the Austrian Grand Prix, the first weekend of July, uh, watkins Glen IMSA race is next weekend and our friend Alec Udella will be racing in that.
Uh, indy cars that rode America this weekend, they're at Mid Ohio, uh, july 2nd.
And then, uh, 24 hours of Le Mans happened last weekend.
I watched it.
Cadillac finished third and fourth.
Third, fourth and 13.
In the hyper cars, yeah Uh, corvette won its class, yep, and that Hendrick Motorsports car, the Camaro.
it won its class, which was the Invitational class, and nobody really gave it credit for even finishing the race.
And it did.
And then NHRA is in Norwalk next weekend.
They're in Bandemir on July 14th, hot, hot Seattle on the 21st and Sonoma on the 28th.
The weird thing is, finally, erica won last weekend her pro stock and on the Western swing, the only place pro stock is going is Bandemir.
They're not going to Seattle and they're not going to Sonoma.
What a shame.
Well, and then I think that's part of the reason that the NHRA is kind of Collapsing Yeah because I don't-.
And then next weekend is That's not your time.
Pikes Peak International Hill Climb Richard Tomlin will have his car there as well as running a couple of other cars should be a lot of fun.
I don't know if we're going to be able to get him on the air to talk or not, but we'll leave that up to Mr Morris.
Yes, the booking agent.
Okay, thank you, sir.
All right, mr Jeff has got a thing that I saw the pictures of the license plates and I'm going.
Yep, i know Jeff's going to do well with this one.
Personalized plates are what we call here in the upper end vanity plates.
Vanity plates.
vanity plates clever or risque?
That's the question.
So what I'm going to do here is I'm going to tell you the vanity license plates are popular way to make the car stand out in a crowd.
However, like all creative endeavors, personalized license plates can be a great opportunity for the funny people of the world to crack a dirty joke.
The best part of this is, while you're reading it or trying to interpret it, react to your funny plates as you drive around town.
Now, the first license plate was issued in 1893 in France and then, a few years later, the Paris Ordinance Act of 1901 came about, and that's how they became license plates.
What does it say on the back of that truck?
Philanderer, no Plumber Plumber, sorry.
The license plate is zero turds on this one.
It was what.
Zero turds.
On the back of the plumber truck.
Each state.
When it came to the United States, each state had their problem with giving it to the government, so that's why we have different plates in different states.
The first license plate in America was in New York, so this is a plumber with zero turds.
I think I'll allow this one.
This one's not too bad, too risque.
You know it's got his phone number on there And there's somebody at the state tag agency that reviews these to make sure.
Oh, I'm getting ahead of you.
Yep, Sorry.
This one here is not a big secret.
This person had the nicest mom, or a narcissist mom, whichever one it is, so I'm going with the nicest mom.
So there you go.
That's a good one there.
I like that one.
Yeah, that's not risque.
Or incest mom, incest mom, that's right, this one here, the state of Washington has a W and the guy obviously he likes hot dogs.
Well, where was Anthony when we needed him?
Anthony.
Wiener.
Could be Anthony's car.
There's a lot of deep hidden meaning in this, because you got an Audi and then you got a university Audi plate and then you got the Washington state, so there's a lot of up to this.
It's got the for those that are listening and not watching.
It's got the stylized Washington letter on there from the University of Washington.
And then behind it it's got EINER.
So you put the two together and it's Wiener.
But he's a big fan of hot dogs.
That's my impression.
I'm sure that's what it is Now.
This next one here is Not worse because it's a German car.
This one is a bit personal.
It's a vanity plate, so put your 50 shades of gray down and it says I love BDSM on the plate.
And it's a mini Cooper, so it's got to be a small BDSM.
So is it a heart I love?
Yeah, i heart.
I heart.
I heart BDSM, and it's a small car, so you can't escape that one In California.
So does it?
That makes sense, yep, so and then you've got this guy is in tune with the young people voting, because you can register to vote when you're 18.
So are you 18 yet, and then So he's in to voting and making sure that all the good citizens are registered to vote.
That's what that is You bet On a sob This one.
At least one person's honest.
If you're gonna get a fire engine, red Corvette and celebrate your midlife crisis, this is the least you can do.
The plate says Viagra.
There you go Like.
And then, of course, the last.
I think offense at that.
Okay.
The last one is you all make the interpretation of this one.
What does that say?
Conrad?
Likely, this guy's last name was probably Cox.
No, it's the media company.
Yeah, cox media, yeah, that's it, it's a big media company.
What does it say?
Big Cox, so I wonder what his wife's license plate looks like and that's Michigan, that's Michigan.
then somebody allowed that to go on.
Yep, what's coax?
Yep.
Okay, there you go.
It's just vanity plates, just don't look at, it's all good, i Do it, kathy, and I do it.
look only in the plate.
What does that mean?
She has to explain it to me.
So you do, you have to figure out what they mean.
Yeah.
I don't.
When I was a field engineer with internal motors I did an inspection on a Corvette that had popped motor and Go down there and look at it and you know there's all of this Black rubber on the rear Quarter panels.
Oh sure You can tell the guy been racing and stuff and the license plate was you Luz, you lose, and Actually kind of search the license plate on YouTube and found a video of him blowing the motor, racing the, racing the car And that was the end of that war.
And that was the end of that war.
Yeah, you bet you.
Yeah, no racing alone.
All right, thank you, jeffrey.
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About this episode
Tom Oscherwitz, VP of Legal at InformedIQ, dives into the complexities of bias in auto loan lending, explaining how biases affect loan approvals and terms. He discusses the role of data and discretion in lending, highlighting the impact of dealer markups and consumer biases. The conversation also touches on the legal framework aimed at preventing discrimination in lending practices. Listeners gain insights into how automation can enhance loan quality control and protect consumers from unfair practices, making it a crucial topic for anyone navigating the auto loan landscape.
Original notes
Are you getting a fair deal on your auto loan? In our latest episode, we sit down with Tom Oshavits, VP of Legal for Informed IQ, to shed light on the hidden biases in auto loan lending and how they might be impacting you. Discover how bias manifests in both data and people's discretion, the role of dealers in loan manipulation, and the crucial importance of FICO scores in determining your financial fate.
As we continue our conversation, Tom offers a fascinating glimpse into how Informed IQ is revolutionizing loan quality control by automating the verification process and safeguarding consumers. Gain valuable insights from Tom's 20 years of experience in data as we explore the unintended consequences of biased data and the need for consumer awareness when making loan decisions. Don't miss out on this engaging and informative episode that just might change the way you approach your next auto loan!
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