Unpacking Telstra's Woes and the future of Triple Zero

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Welcome to be with you. Great to have you company 14th of July, the day of recording and release.

And we are really pumping through this year, aren't we folks?

I'm going to be in London next week with Samsung for their unpacked event for we issue foldable devices.

We never know. There might be more products. We don't know.

But certainly that time of year for folds and they've been even a little hurry.

My son's been telling me about their Instagram or their ads have been kind of showing things chopped off at the top.

So that indicates the wide version of the fold apparently.

So it feels very, very clear that's what's coming. But we'll wait and see.

We will have a show for you next week. So stand by for that. Don't choose stress.

I'll have you covered this week. A bunch of your calls as always.

We're going to talk everything from laptops, iPad, Wi-Fi and we've got someone with feedback on Pocket AI.

That little portable listener, that little portable meeting.

Jeannie show we call it, which was mentioned by another listener some time ago.

But look, I'm going to, I would, and whenever I've got an interview, I normally put it into the show.

So I normally like to have a couple of calls first in the interview, whatever.

But we're going to kick it off this week talking Telstra because it's the biggest story of the week without any question.

And I like it's just, it's a fascinating story.

And so I want to go to someone I really respect that's Graham Lynch from comms.

So I'll bring you that chat in a moment.

But also I just want to reflect upon a TikTok I did this week talking about Vicki Brady.

Vicki Brady is the CEO of Telstra and there was, I was just scrolling.

I shouldn't do it. I was scrolling through Facebook and there was a daily mail headline that basically just said something about the CEO of Telstra being on holidays while the world was crumbling.

Well, she was on holidays. She was on annual leave.

And I found it frankly disgusting that that was even a topic of conversation.

The person with the highest delegation, the highest authority at Telstra when this went down stood up in front of the media very promptly afterwards and then several times to talk about this issue.

And it became clear that Vicki was on holidays and overseas.

And it also became clear it was a severity one incident for Telstra and she made her way home as almost promptly as you could.

She was home on Friday morning doing a press conference. That's 48 hours after the thing happened.

It's a 24 hour flight just from New York, which I think she was around that area.

She may have been there and another hop from there.

So my guess is she spent no more than eight to 12 hours organizing and packing the return.

That's that's a lot like I'm it's Tuesday and I'm freaking out that I haven't begun packing for a four day trip to London on Sunday.

So yeah, I was pretty disgusted by that and I'm I'm kind of it's it's a weird thing about content creation.

You get really excited when a video does well.

I was excited that that video did well because it meant that people were buying into what I was saying.

And I think I saw a couple of negative comments.

But 99% of the comments were overwhelmingly in support and positive of of my comments about Vicki Brady and the ridiculous media pile on of her.

Now, if she stuffs up at all in the next week, we'll we'll go after it.

Don't worry, but but she hasn't.

So let's just all calm down.

But let's focus on the issue.

What happened at Telstra?

What needs to happen going forward?

And what else can we learn from a man in the know?

And that is Graham Lynch from comms day.

Well, what a great day to be Vodafone.

I mean, touch wood, right?

Touch wood for Inyaki at Vodafone.

But right now Vodafone is just gold stars in terms of mobile networks.

If you you don't want to be optus, you don't want to be Telstra right now.

And it's it's fascinating to me that we've had just another monumental failure of a mobile network.

But there's a couple of things I want to unpack.

One of them is triple zero.

The other one is what the hell happened.

And of course, you know, Vicki Brady's not going to be willing to come and chat on a podcast about the ins and outs of the mobile network issue.

But there's one man I respect most in the mobile and the telco space.

And that's Graham Lynch, the publisher of communications day, which is a daily newsletter for people in the telco industry,

which is the Bible.

It's read by literally everyone top to bottom of the telco industry.

And he joins me now on the line.

G'day mate, how are you doing?

I'm great.

Thanks for having me, Trevor.

And thank you for that kind introduction.

Kind and genuine and honest, mate.

Your your edition today, which goes into the triple zero, I want to get to in a moment.

But before we get to that, like the general concept of this major outage, which is absolutely what it is, although Telstra hasn't used.

Telstra's used very simple words like part of or some, you know, they haven't made it seem like it's a very big outage, but it was massive.

I'm going to tell you, for the last 12 hours during radio spots, I've been describing this as a 2026 Y2K bug, because that's essentially what it feels like.

They've been very clear it's a software defect, but they haven't mentioned it was a result of software upgrade.

So I feel like it was just a bug in the system.

Yeah, look, you're basically right there.

Y2K is the best comparison for what went wrong.

What effectively happened was that they use a what they call a timing server.

So it's sort of a GPS linked server that tells the rest of their network what the exact time is kind of like the atomic clock concept.

If you like.

Now, they're using a model called a sync server.

This is an old server, which actually goes back about 20 years when it first came out and was a mainstay for about 10 years and then was just continued around 2016.

And over that period, it was actually made by three different companies because the original manufacturer, Symmetricon, was sold to a company called Microsemi and then to Microship Technology, which might give you a bit of a clue as to how much support it gets.

Yeah, if this is a device that again, in Y2K terms, instead of clicking over from 1999 to 2000, which by the way, was a real crisis and real people had to fix computers.

Okay. A lot of people think it wasn't real, but trust me, there was a lot of work went into everything from websites to infrastructure that needed to be fixed back then.

Essentially, what these systems that live on the Telstra network did was tick over and fail to tick to the next day, the next moment and went back 20 years because I assume the software simply wasn't engineered to last this long.

Now, what that does is it puts the whole network out of sync with itself and therefore it kind of goes into a failsafe mode and herein we have a problem on the Telstra network.

And I guess the thing is, you could not defend them, but you could excuse them in a way from thinking, well, it's not the core network, it's not the data that's processing, it's just a little box that tells the time, right?

So it's been neglected and that's going to be the focus of the how and the why of this really, isn't it? How did it get neglected?

Well, what we don't know, this is the bit we don't know, were they in the process of actually doing a failover process at the time?

Because it's actually about the time of history when it is due for a reset. These things were configured to last, I think it was 1,024 weeks or maybe 19.7 years, depending on what measure you use.

So this is actually about the time from when those models first came out that you needed the reset. What I suspect happened, I don't have any sources on this, by the way.

What I suspect is that they actually were trying to mitigate it. They were attempting some kind of process and they stuffed up, they stuffed up that process.

And this reminds me a little bit of what happened with Optus last year, where they remember they took triple zero offline for a little bit to put a firewall in, but some dude in Chennai forgot to log it properly.

So the alert didn't go off and then the rest is history then it came down. So I suspect something similar has happened here. It's probably human error and not necessarily because of neglect.

It's more just one of your consequences of what they call tech debt, where you've got all these accumulated old things in your tech stack and you don't replace them because you know that there's just something you've got to do once every 20 years to fix it up and they stuffed up that process.

Right, so essentially this device, even though it's old, probably does have quite a long life because it's so simple what it does. It doesn't need to be replaced. It just needed to have a process undertaken and that may be where it went wrong.

But in reality, the focus is going to be on, hey guys, you're a bazillion dollar company. You could have spent a couple 100000000 to replace all these things with brand new gear that is supported, which will be the focus here because it's Telstra for Christ's sake.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the legitimate criticism. But let's wait for the investigation to see what actually happened because at this stage it's just speculation.

And if you really want to fix these problems in the long term, you've got to address them with the reality and not the speculation. So I'm a little loaf to kick them too hard at the moment until I know exactly what went on there.

I mean, you could also make the obvious point that if you replace short the old time service of new ones, that in itself is a particular event that causes potential failure when you take the old offline and put new online.

The risk may simply be lower to stick with what you've got than it is to replace and re-engineer in some way. So the other part of this that's fascinated me has been, and I blame the media primarily for this, the triple zero hype I'm going to call it.

Now, yes, I want to be very clear that what I'm saying here does not diminish the concerns of people who had a legitimate emergencies and couldn't get through.

But but in real terms, you know, we're talking 600 calls. We don't know how many of those calls yet. And I don't know that we truly will, but we may find out at Senate later this week.

We don't know how many of those calls were simple people going, How does it work? Like the shadow communications minister, you know, checking the triple zero worked and just hanging up.

We don't know how many people were not in need of emergency, but 600 calls were attempted and failed in some way shape or form and welfare checks were undertaken.

It's not quite as weirdly extreme, though, as what happened to Optus, because in Optus's case, triple zero was essentially disconnected from their network.

But in reality, the triple zero system was broadly still working. Was it not with Telstra? It's just that there was a lot of people hanging up or not camping on or not waiting for the camp on.

Yeah, and you've actually you've kind of nailed it there, which is it's the camp on process. And by necessity, it takes a little longer to establish a call when it's camping onto another network than if you're going on to your host network.

And people aren't used to that because people don't call triple zero in a failure scenario all the time. So they're utterly unfamiliar with what happens to a call when that happens.

And they clearly and obviously become quite impatient and give up.

I struggle to script because I've done a piece on triple M that's gone across the network this week to say, guys, everyone, Australia, when you need triple zero in an emergency, it's going to sound crazy, but you need to be patient.

Because if you're in an area where your phone says SOS, so you could just be outside of a service area, or your network is down, it's likely that your phone will take 60 to 90 seconds to connect.

And in that time, nothing will happen. It will be blank. Your phone will just say calling and your obvious desire is to hang up and try again.

But you simply restart the clock at that time and you have to wait another 90 seconds. So it's an education problem and process in that sense.

Yeah, that's right. And look, there are things that could be done as mitigations. For example, just like a phone gives you an alert when its battery is running down, it could give you an alert when it's camping on to another network.

That is going to take some time. That's possible. No, more people read that when they're in a panic and they've got the phone to their ear and they're not looking at it.

Well, who's to know, but it could help in some situations. I mean, what you've got, people have gone overseas and connected their phone through an international roaming process will understand what's involved here because that's always slower than going on to your host.

And it's actually effectively the same process. So your device has got to scan all the available bands. It's got to read the information from the system. It's got to work out which base station to connect to.

And then there are timers, which allow time for success or failure, 15 seconds for a touch, 10 seconds after a jet. So as you say, that can take up to 90 seconds extra.

Now, typically it takes about 45 seconds as a maximum to camp on. That's still way, way longer.

When someone's bleeding in front of you, right?

Exactly.

And this is the thing, most of us, and I, someone should do the numbers, I'm sure the government could, but you know, the percentage of people that have Australians that have called triple zero would be miniscule, very, very small.

That's right.

But the reason we call them is in a distinct emergency. And so my number one education out of this is to continue telling people that it takes time to camp on.

I think we should normalise the term camp on because it's the best way of describing the process of using another network.

Before I ask you about the future of triple zero, though, do you, ACAN was pretty strong this week. We should have domestic roaming.

It's something that I supported when it went to the ACCC in 2017. Obviously the telcos or Telstra don't support it.

Would that have made, that would have made this better though, wouldn't it? Because you're not camping on, you're just roaming and that's a faster process?

Yeah. Well, it's actually the same process. It's like international roaming. It's got to do all those things I just described.

In terms of scanning the bands and registering with the new network and allowing time for failure, which was to the process.

But you're right. Eventually a lot more people would have been able to get on.

The problem you have with domestic roaming is that in a crisis situation, you don't want to overload the network that you're roaming on to and then collapse that as well.

That's always a possibility. So the theory of domestic roaming is fine.

And yes, normally it would appear to solve the problem, but you don't want to just think create a new problem.

You've got to look at the utilization rates of the networks, the probability of which one is going to, you know, if it's CPG for example.

Suddenly possible that Telstra is called, yeah.

Yeah, but if say it's Telstra failing and then they all go on to Optus, which is presumably a smaller network in terms of configuration.

Smaller capacity, configuration, everything, yep.

Yeah. And then it raises a whole lot of other questions as well about spectrum and all that kind of stuff.

Right now Telstra is only allowed to own 40% of the spectrum.

Right.

But if it's going to be the default network that everyone roams on to, maybe that needs to be relaxed.

So there's actually quite a lot of policy issues that need to be sorted out, but also making sure that those networks are provisioned properly to handle all that new traffic.

Particularly, I don't want to sound like a doomsayer here, but particularly in overt crisis situations.

You know, let's say there's an earthquake in a city or, you know, like some little masculinity, which generates a lot of extra traffic.

You don't want to bring down every network.

Yeah.

And that's the potential issue of domestic roaming.

Then let's, let's eyes to the future on triple zero because something else I've been banging on about.

But just generally talking about this week is triple zero was created in the 60s when we had landline phones and in some places still manual exchanges.

So it's a weird thing because if you go back to the 60s, you know, triple zero was harder to use because you had to be near a landline or a pay phone.

So we're lucky now that we carry around a device that can call triple zero from anywhere basically.

But we need, we don't need triple zero inquiries.

We don't need the government, you know, whinging about what doesn't work.

We need the government saying what next and the word that I, that I've heard many, many times in AI is multimodal.

And now I've read it in comms day.

And I think it's a great description of what we need.

We need multimodal triple zero, which means triple zero might be accessible through everything from a phone call to a text message to a piece of data.

And that might be a WhatsApp message or FaceTime.

Who knows?

We also need triple zero on satellite.

But there's so much regulation and legislation around who controls this, who runs this that made I'm really worried this is going to take years.

Oh, look, I mean, there's been similar debates over the universal service obligation for 10 or 11 years and it hasn't moved an inch.

So I wouldn't be surprised if triple zero has the same way.

And the way the way you've got it constructed right now is that the ACMA is normally responsible for the enforcement of penalties and the regime around triple zero.

But the triple zero custodian who's supposed to get everyone talking to each other is in the Department of Communications.

And then all the regulations around the resilience of networks, you know, I uptime that kind of thing that's in the Home Affairs Department.

Wow.

And then, of course, when these situations occur with outages, the Senate gets involved and holds inquiries and, you know, you mentioned ACMA.

And there's a lot of people with voices here.

And it's not conducive to good long term planning.

There's a lot of people shouting at each other or siloized.

And people and organizations become protective of their position.

Or, you know, what you want is you want you want a representative from each of the telcos with the smartest brain.

You want someone from a government ACMA or whatever.

You want him in a room with a whiteboard that goes right.

At this end, there's a picture of a consumer.

At the other end is a picture of a call center operator in the triple low call center.

We need to bolster and in for ensure the call center is is in place and works.

But everything in between is how do we get the message that I need help?

And then simply list them all and go, which ones can be robust?

Which ones can be executed?

Which ones can be prioritized?

Which ones can work?

And also then that becomes the question of responsibility.

And you mentioned this again in comms day, which fascinates me.

It's like, hang on, it's just all on the telcos right now when actually, you know, Apple and Samsung and Oppo and Motorola, you know, people that make devices are also partly responsible for the way their phone operates.

And we've seen that through software update issues.

So there's a lot to get through.

But really, we just need him in a room to go, guys, can we make sure that from 2030 we can send an SMS to triple zero and someone will be back in touch or we'll know where your location.

Can we can we use the satellite network?

It's ridiculous that Telstra already has a deal with Elon Musk Starlink to utilize that network and they're using it for bugger all.

And that's probably by my guess, basically because of the universal service obligation and triple zero.

We'd be using it for calls right now.

They're doing it in America, but we're not doing it here because I bet it's related to how triple zero is handled through that mechanism.

We're just not thinking about the end user.

Yeah, that's right.

I mean, triple zero is put in its own little department when actually it's part of a bigger issue in many respects.

And you look at these services that Telstra and Apple, which offers its own messaging service.

Yeah, which isn't even a telco.

Now, they're already offering this and half of the smartphones in Australia are Apple models.

So these things are already significant that you can use an Apple satellite messaging service to text for roadside assistance.

But the triple zero regime has absolutely zero concepts that that even exists.

It doesn't acknowledge it.

Apple was included in the discussions from what I can see.

They certainly didn't put a submission into the inquiry that the departments just held on triple zero.

I was just looking through all the submissions yesterday, nothing from Apple in there, nothing from Samsung.

It's utterly ridiculous.

The situation where people simply in the industry are not talking to each other properly,

putting forward their views, even educating each other about capabilities.

And then, as you say, the times have changed.

Young people text they use over the top applications like WhatsApp.

Yeah, which by the way is an 80s thing, right?

Your mate who landed at Brisbane airport.

Now, let's let's be disaster heads here and go, OK, you landed at Brisbane airport.

And then there's some mass casualty incident where he's first on the scene and someone's, you know,

bloodied on the ground and you want to call triple zero Telstra's down.

WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, like whatever, I don't I'm not determining which it is,

but there's other mechanisms by which that could have worked just simply when he was on the Wi-Fi.

That's right.

But yet, you know, it didn't work and all the towers could have been down.

Remember, all the mobile networks could be down in that situation, especially in a terror event, you know.

So we're not thinking about it from any other perspective and that I don't.

Mate, I'll tell you, I've sat through enough Senate Estimates hearings to know that's not where the problem is going to be solved.

You know, that is a headline grabbing Instagram real creating environment that doesn't solve problems.

It just it just gets nowhere and it's embarrassing.

It's just people shouting at each other.

That's all it is.

It doesn't solve any issues.

It's actually kind of harmful.

And every time I hear that the opposition and the cross benches have got together to do a Senate inquiry or something to do with telecoms.

I just sigh because I know it's not going to shine the light on anything.

It's just going to create more noise and it's not conducive to good outcomes.

That's the problem I see because, as you say, in the media, the media wants to high fault this stuff up, not have sensible discussion about it.

And that's OK.

But that's how their incentives lie.

They're trying to get eyeballs.

That's fine.

OK, but then you have the political senators who work in partnership with the media to get eyeballs on their messaging.

And you just don't get anywhere in terms of genuine reform.

Because they want to got you a moment that they can put on Instagram, mate.

Exactly.

We should be using Instagram as a platform for good in terms of enabling it for messaging for these sorts of triple zero situations.

Here's my last point to everyone listening.

Politicians are not fun people to engage with at the better time.

But if you've ever met your local member, sometimes you realize that they're actually just people who are there to try and represent you, right?

So I know my local member and I'm going to write to him.

And I think everyone should do that because, see, your local member is there to represent you.

And if you write to your local member, they're essentially obliged to read it and respond and pass on upwards through the chain.

That's how it works.

If we all write to our local members and say, listen, I don't think you're doing enough about triple zero.

I don't think a simple inquiry is enough.

I think this needs to be a roots and branch overhaul of the system with the consumer in mind and the objective of contacting triple zero in mind and nothing else.

Then maybe, just maybe, some people power could rise up and push, you know, the parliament fully to actually make some moves.

Because if Anthony Albanese stood up and said, listen, I don't want this to happen anymore and I want this to be a legacy of mine, among many other things that I'm sure he's done,

then he could get everyone in the room.

Mate, you can get Apple into a Senate Senate room to do an inquiry.

I bet any money, if the Prime Minister called for it, you could get him in a room to have a closed door off the record conversation about planning.

And I just think that's what needs to happen next, Graeme.

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree.

You know, as I just mentioned, there is an inquiry into triple zero being held by the department right now.

Not noticeable for the fact that even some of the biggest players in the ecosystem aren't contributing to it.

It has to be broader.

It has to be not an inquiry, but a working group.

That's it.

It has to be focused on action.

It sounds like punishment.

It sounds like planning.

Yeah, exactly.

And they already do these things through Home of Heirs in a more general way when it comes to critical infrastructure resilience.

They kind of do wargaming simulations, that kind of thing.

But it doesn't focus on these nitty-gritty issues.

You just mentioned it, the delay in camp on, there needs to be education for customers that they need to have different expectations of a call in some of these situations.

Yeah.

That's the first thing.

You've got to reform the way you can contact triple zero.

You're widening the messaging mechanisms for doing so.

That requires those particular companies, the measures and so on to get involved.

You're right.

We need to put them all in a room, bang some heads together and get away from this idea that we can solve the problems with a couple of liberal then greens and I says, shall see it bureaucrats.

They all have government relations people.

They all have lobbyists.

They all have the mechanisms and they all have, especially your big Samsung and Apple, they have global understanding, global knowledge of how these things can be done are being done.

We could be a world leader in this space.

We could create a system that is world leading because we are certainly not world leading today when it comes to triple zero.

And that's sad and dangerous in many ways.

But yeah, let me look.

Let me finish off with a little, little spotter hope for you.

I love it.

There's a positive thing is a testing facility at the University of Technology in Sydney run by a former Nokia guy called Dr Ray Owen and they test all the handsets for how they work for camp on and that kind of thing.

And apparently the results of these handsets from these handset tests are being used globally to inform emergency calling regulation all around the world.

And they've been really good at getting feedback to the handset manufacturers for how they can upgrade and update their code better.

And so there are some positive things happening and we should focus on that as well.

There are some good things underway right now that are making the system more robust, more responsive to the needs of actual people.

That's a lovely way to end it, Crane.

Thank you, mate.

Your insight.

I genuinely meant it, mate.

I respect every word that comes out of your mouth because you've got more connections in this industry than anyone I know.

And I think people could hear that in the fact that you're willing to wait for the Telstra understanding of what went wrong before really going off here.

It's important to be reasoned and responsible about that in the same way that I was very vocal about the way people were hammering Vicky Brady for no apparent reason last week just for having a holiday.

But anyway, that's...

I just want to say, well done on that.

It's really easy to sort of kick a CEO, kick the man or the woman in this particular case.

But it doesn't particularly solve the issue.

She didn't make the actual mistake which led to this.

She dedicated her authority to other capable executives like her CFO who appeared to perform quite well.

And everyone's calling for the head of the CEO.

They did it with Steven Rue as well last year.

You might recall.

When he was doing a very transparent and good job.

Yeah, it's counterproductive.

And look, I know these individuals, they go through a lot of personal pain in these situations.

The media is piling on them, the politicians are piling on them.

It's very personal.

And they do feel bad about what's happened.

They're people, they have a conscience, and they do feel bad about what's happened.

And that's probably the biggest punishment of all, which is the pressure they're under.

And this idea that you can solve all these problems just by doubling the fine or something.

It's terribly naive.

And ultimately what it leads to will be a lower quality of CEO.

Those who would submit themselves.

Why would you want that job?

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

I think that's the way we've ended with politicians.

But anyway, that's the story for another episode.

I really appreciate it.

Okay, you take care.

This is the EFTM podcast.

Great to have you company.

And if you've got a tech question, you know how to get in touch.

Oh, four, double 7657657

Vicky's on the line.

Hey, Vicky.

How are you?

I'm excellent.

What can I do for you?

Well, I just wanted to ask some questions about what type or what sort of new computer I should buy.

I've always had an Apple Mac and I've got a 27 inch Apple Mac, which I bought in around 2007.

Oh, like the iMac, the desktop computer?

The desktop computer.

Love that computer.

When did you say 2001?

Seven.

I bought it.

Oof.

It's had a life.

That's 19 years ago.

And it still works perfectly well.

Except I can't update the operating system anymore.

I wouldn't have thought so.

Yeah.

Hi, Sierra was the last one, which was, this makes it, well, this would make sense to you.

10.13.6.

So basically, when you see new features, they can't be there.

But are you noticing that you need it?

Like what?

Yeah.

Some things that I researched, like I do a lot of online shopping now, retired.

And I still do, you know, look at stuff and documentaries and stuff.

But just recently I was on my Gmail and just said this browser version is no longer supported.

Please upgrade to a supported browser.

So I'm assuming that's to do with the age of the computer.

Would that be?

Yeah.

Basically everything from your browser to your mail software, everything's going to

start being like, hang on a minute, I can't help you with this anymore.

Because look, they just aren't updating, you know, software for such old devices on such

a small number of uses, you know.

You might be one of 10,000 people using that computer still.

But in the millions, it's not enough for them to justify the work.

Absolutely.

So yeah, that's the challenge.

So what have you started looking at?

Where's your mind at?

Well, I've done a little research.

I've printed out a few things.

I guess I was looking at the iPad Pro, the MacBook Neo and the MacBook Air.

Now, I know that they're all, you know, you've got the 256 or 500.

Are you happy to downsize that much?

Because that's a big screen going down to a small screen.

What you used to have is massive.

Yeah.

Well, since I've retired, I've often sit in my lounge and just do everything on my

phone.

Oh, well this has changed the game.

So you're actually upsizing because you'll be sitting on the lounge at the table or

wherever you are, or you might go visiting someone and you take your device with you,

then you've got it all and you're in your normal mode.

It's a compromise, but it's a good one.

Yeah.

And I'm also just joining the SES and I did ask them, can you work remotely from home?

So I would want a computer that's going to handle that sort of their system.

Yeah, right.

Okay.

Do you know what their system is though?

They've got system requirements.

It's probably all cloud based, I would think.

Yeah.

I only know what their program is called, which is...

That's not a web-based...

Beacon is their program.

I don't think so.

I don't know.

I've only just sort of...

I start training next Monday.

Okay.

I...

Look, out of what you've said so far, I love the MacBook Neo.

I think...

The MacBook Neo?

It's such a great...

I'm still using it, right?

Really?

Yeah.

I thought it was a new thing.

I thought it was a new one.

It's three months old.

Oh, okay.

But for me to still be using something after three weeks is a lot, yeah?

Yeah.

Because I've got six laptops here I could be using tomorrow.

Yeah.

So often I'm using them just sporadically during a two week period to review them.

But the one I put in my backpack, the one I take home, the one that I travel with is

the MacBook Neo.

Oh, okay.

And just to be very clear, downstairs in my shelving, in my warehouse, there is a brand

new MacBook Pro and a brand new MacBook Air unboxed that they've never been opened because,

you know what?

I don't need all that power.

Yeah.

I've got that...

I've got an unbelievable computer.

I'm sitting out at my desk and that's where I do the most power intensive things.

But when I went to Channel 9 this morning under my arm was my MacBook Neo.

When I went to London a few weeks ago, under my arm was my MacBook Neo because it does everything.

If you said to me, you're doing video editing and all this kind of stuff, which I do on the

MacBook Neo, I'd still say you probably want the Air or the Pro.

But gee, the Neo is so light, so portable, it does everything you need.

I would challenge you to triple check with the SES that their software will work on a

Mac full stop because it may be Windows software.

And that may be a deal breaker.

You may need to get a Windows computer, which could be a huge game changer for you.

I don't want a Windows computer.

That's a lot to learn.

And the reason I would push you towards a MacBook and we'll go there first over the iPad.

I love the iPad.

They're great.

Great for watching Netflix or Stan or Amazon Prime, whatever you watch.

But you can get a keyboard for them and all that stuff.

But I still find that a laptop on your lap is easy to use than an iPad on your lap.

And the number of times you are just sitting there watching TV and doing something on your

computer is more than most of us would admit.

So I think a laptop is probably a better option for you given what you're doing with the SES

among anything else.

If you wanted to hedge your bets, then a MacBook Air is a really good middle of the road option

for you that allows you to do a couple of extra things.

Firstly, you can get a bigger screen.

So you can get a MacBook Air with a 15 inch screen, which is much bigger than the MacBook

Neo is.

And that's a pretty big deal and it's much more powerful.

So if there are any intensive demands from that software, it certainly has the capabilities

to deal with them.

Now the MacBook Air, by the way, though, at 15 inches is two and a half thousand dollars.

At 13 inches, it's 2100 dollars and the MacBook Neo is 1000

and fifty dollars.

Yeah.

Printed those prices out.

They went up this week.

So because it's a big jump to go from the Neo to the Air.

But if you if financially you could do the 2000 dollars, I think a MacBook

Air is a good long term, stable, everyday computer for you.

You would not be unhappy with it.

So it would be the middle ground I'd lean you towards, I think.

But make that do not buy until you've had that conversation with the SES.

Yeah.

So out of the just on the the MacBook Neo, it says like you can get your 200 and

56

There's only two versions.

There's a 256 and a 512

The 512 also comes with a fingerprint reader.

Look, it's it's quicker to log on to and it's got more storage.

I don't know that you're doing much storage, though.

I don't think you need much storage.

Not really. All my photos now go up into the iCloud.

Well played.

Because when I worked at Wongong Council before I retired, I was using my phone for

their systems because I had to log into my aged care and health department to do reports.

And when I left there, they actually accidentally locked me out of my phone and

lost all my photos and everything on my phone and couldn't retrieve it.

Yes. So I now got the cloud, which I never had before.

Lesson learned.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not just a lesson learned.

It is. It's a great solution because it means that you don't have to worry about

where your photos are.

They're always going to be there.

Yeah, my other quick question was I was writing down things about the MacBook

Neo and on one of them, it says, for example, 200 and 56

gig dash eight gig. What's the eight gig?

The eight gig is the RAM.

So there's two types of memory on a computer.

The one is the memory that you use to save your photos.

And the other is its memory to think and the eight is its memory to think.

So, for example, in a 13 inch MacBook Air, you're going to get 16.

Right. And what the what the thinking does, it means things will load faster

and the software will run better.

Not necessary, not not a really important thing when you're using the browser

like Safari or Chrome to do things on the web, because it doesn't need to think

when doing the web. It just needs to show.

But if you're running software like the stuff might be better with a little bit

of extra RAM, they call it unified memory, but it's RAM.

OK, but the Neo doesn't have the extra.

Does it? No, the Neo is pretty limited in that space,

which, again, is why I would, if you can afford it, I'd push you towards the MacBook Air.

Yeah, yeah. OK.

But let me be very clear.

If if the the MacBook Neo is the one that fits your budget best,

you will not be unhappy with it. I'm I'm confident of that.

I'm just saying that if you, you know, if you can push it,

you'll love that the air.

Yep. OK. All right.

Yeah, I can. And remember, you can't take it with you.

I don't know if you got kids or grandkids, but what I say to my mum is,

I don't need it. Spend it.

I have no grandkids, but they're a bit older now,

although they cost me more now that they're older.

Yeah, well, you know what?

Put the put the MacBook Air in the wheel by the by the more expensive one.

Put it in the wheel will do.

They've got all the gadgets already.

Yeah, exactly. They're not interested anyway.

All right. Lovely to hear from you.

Happy shopping and good luck with the work you're doing for the SES.

Thank you for your advice.

Thank you very much. My pleasure.

Thank you. That's that's easy.

Great. Great.

Happy to help there.

And as I said, the Neos are unbelievable device.

Disappointing with those price rises a few weeks, a couple of weeks ago,

but still good value, but just it just pushes it into another space.

And those air prices are up as well.

So, yeah, tough one.

Join the conversation.

Head to eftm.com and click Ask Trev.

All right, Adrian's on the line today, Adrian.

Get on, Trev, here you go.

Make really good. What can I do for you?

Oh, I went off.

I was listening like a week or two ago,

where you some full ring up.

Talk and I always think we're used to record stuff.

And you know, the one I'm talking about.

Yes, I had a caller a while ago, and then we had a follow up

from someone who bought a couple of them.

I think his wife was a business or something.

And so we're talking the pocket AI.

It's a little credit card size thing.

It's probably what would you call it?

Maybe three credit cards stacked together.

And you literally can keep it in your pocket.

Yeah, press a button and it will record what you say.

Now, that could be you talking to it or it could be you in a meeting.

How have you bought one?

Right, so I was first heard it when you were chatting to

I think it was the first bike that rang in.

Like you, my ears pricked up and I know you said that you

thought you jumped a lot of boats right away.

If I was a driver, I would have done the same thing.

I got home, I looked at it.

I bought two.

One for me, one for the missus.

Mate, they are incredible.

My wife does a ton of meetings.

She goes through.

She's going through an inventory at the moment, an inventory.

And she's just sitting there talking and seeing

going to one of these three of those, going through a whole stack of things,

uploading or syncing the thing to her phone.

And then telling AI, listen, put this in a spreadsheet

that I can copy into Excel for an inventory and bang, it's done.

And it's so intuitive, obviously, AI stuff that it categorises things.

And it's just it is really very cool, very cool.

She does it.

What and what are you using it for?

Oh, look, it's just when I saw it and it was like,

oh, if you buy two, you get the second one cheaper.

And I'm just I'm just one of these guys that I love me tech.

And, you know, it's handy when, you know, you think of stuff when you're driving

or if you are talking to somebody and it's gone, hang on a second.

I want to make sure I've got this right or whatever.

Just press the button and it's got that.

It's got like, you know, it can stick on the back of your phone

if you've got MagSafe sort of thing on your phone.

It could just sit on the back there.

It's incredible.

And it like the battery life last so God, I don't know how long.

It is a very cool bit of kit.

I think there's other things out there.

I don't know how it stacks up, but I'm telling you,

we haven't found enough wrong with it.

That's bloody good.

Well, I'll tell you this and you've got them, so you're happy.

But I'll tell you, I am.

I'm testing another one right now called Plaud.

P-L-A-U-D.

It's thinner, which to me is remarkable,

like it is half the thickness of the pocket AI.

It's got a little screen on it so that you push the button.

You can see it's battery life, which I liked.

You push and hold the button, it buzzes and then it's just recording,

kind of like the other one.

But I like that it is a kind of a display that tells me it's recording,

push and hold again to stop recording.

But the rest of it is the same.

It's just syncing up to an app and the app, let's be clear.

Let's be real with ourselves.

We've probably overpaid for what it physically is.

It's a little box with a battery, a microphone and storage.

It's a dictaphone, right?

It's a modern dictaphone, right?

But what you're actually paying for is what the app can do,

which is download all that, transcribe it and then, you know,

as you say, requested to do other things.

Here's my problem.

I'm thinking what I still want is I want it to link

with other services.

So, you know, I'm not, I use either chat, GBT or Claude for my AI.

If I'm going to give, if I'm going to hold this in my pocket all the time

and go, hey, don't forget to do this, or here's an idea for a video,

or here's an idea for content, or don't forget to write this article,

whatever it is, I want it to, frankly, automatically be syncing with my phone.

And then I want it to automatically, if I choose,

sync all my notes to one of my other AI agents,

because I think I'd get more benefit from it if it was doing that.

That's, that's my only thing, because if I,

if I do something pretty cool, like a long interview or something,

and then I've got the transcript and the meeting notes and actions and things.

But if I take that and put it into Claude or chat, GBT,

I can ask it to do so much more with it.

Yeah. Yeah.

So that's my only, that's what I hope from them is that they

here's what I hope they get acquired.

Like I hope pocket AI gets acquired by chat, GBT, and it becomes a,

you know, part of their product cycle.

But what we're seeing here, what we are, is we're a part of the future,

because you know, there'll be these little pins that you can wear

that are the same thing, and it's just kind of, you know, people freak out

about people wearing metaglasses and taking photos,

but we're going to be having these things just constantly recording,

like police bodycamps.

Well, this is it, I think people, a lot of people get nervous

over that sort of stuff.

And like I'd even suggest this thing that you can sit it on the back

of your phone and it'll pick up a phone call.

Now, I know there's a lot of, a lot of legal mumbo jumbo

around recording telephone calls. That's true. Yeah, that's actually.

Which is a bit of a minefield.

But I suppose it always comes down to, you know, you can do all sorts of things.

Depends on how you choose to use it.

And if you're stupid enough to use it in a way that you shouldn't.

But I mean, if you're using it as a prompt to remind you of something or

you know, it's, yeah, but, yeah, for the purposes,

they probably use other stuff, better, quicker, thinner, whatever.

But I'll tell you just for what we're using it for at the moment.

Yeah, this thing, this thing's gold.

I didn't know these things were out there and, you know,

this one that we're using, it's fantastic.

Massive. Well, what a growing endorsement, mate.

Well done. Excellent. Thank you for the feedback.

No worries, mate.

Good on you, buddy. Great to chat as always.

Got it. Yeah, no worries.

Sure, see you mate. Cheers mate, no worries.

Yeah, so I've been playing with this plaud.

So that's P. It's not clawed, the AI agents, plaud.

P-L-A-U-D. And it is.

I get to be, it's a, it's a better looking device.

It's kind of got a nice design, a little tiny screen on it.

It's so thin, I get legit could go in your wallet.

Whereas pocket AI is a bit thicker.

It's probably four mil thick.

This one wouldn't be two mil.

Crazy. I've just got to, I've got to become more habitual.

I've got to put it, maybe I've got to keep it in my pocket more often

so I can go, I've got that idea.

Write it down, you know, but instead of writing it down, take a note.

So I probably need to put a bit more time into it,

but you know, I'm, I'm, I'm doing my best.

I'm getting there, slightly but surely.

But yeah, we'd love to hear your experiences with any products you've bought

as a result of hearing someone talk about them right here on this show.

Get in touch any time.

Vaughn's on the line today, Vaughn.

Can I, Trev, how are you?

I'm really good. What can I do for you?

I'm just giving you a call because I need to get some router advice.

And also I'm wondering if you know anyone at Telstra who might be able to assist.

My parents are 79 years of age and have been with Telstra for an eternity.

And I must say, show much more loyalty to Telcos than I do.

Well, that anyone should, frankly, remember, yeah.

Yes. Although I have got them over the boosts,

which I know is now back with Telstra for their phones.

But they've got a big pond email address.

So they want to stay with Telstra so they don't lose that.

But they are on a 5G internet with a modem that didn't work

and it's taken Telstra over a month and they still haven't got it working

or offered a tangible solution.

They've with some prompting and a complaint by me on my parents' behalf

to the telecommunications industry ombudsman, it's been escalated at Telstra.

The phase one has expired and Telstra still haven't resolved it.

We've asked it to be escalated.

What do you believe should be the resolution?

Well, they've been they had a data service on this on the account,

which was $30 a month, which has never been used.

And they have no knowledge of it or any recollection of signing up for it.

So Telstra have said they'll look into that, but they'll probably refund that.

And they've Telstra should be refunding their charges for the time

that they've been unable to properly use the internet and should be doing all

they can to get them connected to the NBN and they've got fiber to the premises

available to them. Oh, really? Yeah.

So to I mean, it's a it's it's really I mean, Telstra just needs to order it

from the NBN. Well, precisely, there's a technician coming out on on Thursday.

But I've spent hours on the phone with the people of this.

Assuming the house has never had the NBN connected, I'm assuming so.

Yes. So they were one of these.

I'm here's my guess.

510 years ago, whenever it was that the NBN came into play,

they were sent a new modem.

It was a 5G modem with Telstra.

They were put on to that plan.

That was their new internet.

It was probably the same rate as they are on our important aquarium.

They didn't have broadband where they were.

And they're on 4G when they came to Australia.

They went to it.

Sorry to Australia, it's almost Australia.

But when they came to Sydney, they went to the Telstra shop

and the Telstra employee didn't say,

why aren't you going on the NBN when you're living in North West Sydney?

They said, oh, yes, you want a modem, we'll give you a 5G modem.

And of course, we all know the profit for Telstra is 100 is absolute

off a 5G modem.

The my point is they have a positive obligation

to sell a consumer the product that's best suited to their service.

And so we've tried to get it escalated.

The telecommunications ombudsman person,

we've got a fellow who is refusing to move it up to his supervisor.

If he were able to get it escalated to someone at Telstra,

I'd be most grateful.

Look, we'll do that straight away.

So what I need from you and if you do you have my email address?

Yes, I do. OK, so what I want you to just send me a little email,

which is, you know, not 16 chapters, but it's it's it's just

address, name, address, phone number, account number,

TOO, lodgment number, whatever numbers it is to track this down.

And then, you know, six stop points about the issue,

because really, for me, the best thing to do in these these situations

is to say, OK, here's what the problem is.

Problem is the 5G modem doesn't work.

We're not getting connectivity.

Additionally, there's a 30 dollar charge.

We just don't know what it is.

So the solution is refund the 30 dollar charge,

refund the usage for the last two months.

That have not been available and then connect the NBN

pronto and provide them with a modem within the NBN that works

and gives them connectivity done.

And the account, it's about 300 of dollars

because it's been going for every year, but whatever it is,

the amount to material.

But the the other thing is the account is a mess.

And I've asked Telstra to have a look at the account,

work out whether they've been on a plan that was because

telcos often have people on plans that are that are

more expensive and they bring out a cheaper plan.

They don't tell them.

So they're they're rightly they should rightly be on the front foot about this

because Optus was hauled over the coals from the ACCC,

the way they handled and sold products in their retail stores,

which is not Optus specifically, it was some, you know, franchise retailers.

But but yeah, I think that I think they'd be well within their desire

to settle this quickly.

So you email me everything you need and I will escalate it.

My main contact is overseas at the moment, but he's back next week.

That's OK.

But we will see what we can do to get that resolved for you.

And I can tell you, I had a wonderful experience.

Anyone listening who's not a member of the man cave.

I hope you don't mind me giving the man clover a free plug.

Didn't think you would.

Who's not a member of the man cave should really jump on the man cave

because I put a message out there a fellow called Patrick got in touch with me.

Patrick's got his own independent communication consultancy.

Terrific.

He wasn't and to be clear, he wasn't looking for business.

He said, look, I'm happy to have a chat to you for free.

No problem.

But I looked at his rates.

They're very, very reasonable.

And he, you know, he was just really knowledgeable and just a terrific bike.

Happy to have a good chat and Patrick used to work in the telco industry

and has literally just set up in a consultancy for people.

I mean, I'd go, I'd call it like a level above the old kind of his.

What do you speak or gizmo and geeks to you?

Geeks to you.

Very much more personal.

Yeah. And he's very, very knowledgeable with regards to the telco industry.

So, yeah, I would second that.

Lovely bike.

And, and, and finally, Trevor, what's your thought on, obviously,

you're sponsored by Netgear at the moment.

But routers in small, you know, retirement village type situations.

How does that work?

They they are self-enclosed.

It's not just a room.

They've got their own.

No, no, no, retirement is a two bedroom.

Yeah, right. OK. Yeah, two bedroom unit.

So I'm curious.

I don't think you need anything special there.

You know, the most basic of, frankly,

telco provided modem should do the job there.

Let's be real. Yeah, like it's not.

It's so small. Yes, exactly.

The telco ride, you know, the telco provided mode should be fine.

Yeah, I mean, it's the size of a two bedroom unit, an average two bedroom unit.

But even for an average two bedroom unit, you know, you don't really need a mesh system.

No, no, I mean, I'd love to have people buying

Necki products for a start, but any I've always advocated for mesh systems,

but normally because they're home, family homes we're talking about.

Mate, I just think placement is critical.

So if if you can have any sway over where that NBN gets installed to,

there may be some hurdles with the NBN being installed in that facility.

So I don't know whether you can find out whether there's anything there

that the facility can do to make sure that they're allowing the NBN in

as easily as they should be or whatever.

I'm pretty sure they are because other residents have got it installed.

No, we didn't sort of say, why don't you get permission?

I thought, let's just put it in and ask for forgiveness later.

No, 100 percent.

It's just, you know, the physical, the physicality of getting a fire

with the premises connection in may be more challenging.

But yeah, I don't honestly, my thought would be,

do just get Telstra to get this happening and get Telstra to provide a smart motor.

Like, well, that's the thing, you know, and yeah.

No, well, that's what I'm thinking, you know.

So, you know, I appreciate you taking the time to have a chat, Trev.

No, always, Vaughn.

Send me the email.

I will talk to Telstra on your behalf and we'll try and get you activated quickly.

No, that's fine.

Appreciate it.

Legendary.

Do you mind just coming back to me when you finish the call?

Absolutely, we'll do.

All right.

Thanks, mate. Talk soon.

And we'll we'll see if we can get Vaughn's solution to you.

My man's overseas till next week, but I'm sure they'll look into it as soon as they can.

Tech, cars, lifestyle.

This is the EFTM podcast with Trev along.

You can text Trev now.

Thanks to Vodafone on 0477657657.

Let's chat.

Whatever you want to talk about, save it in your phone, 0477657657.

We will get you on the show.

Producer Rob will be in touch.

We'll we'll talk to you soon away next week, but we'll have a show next week.

But if you've got questions, don't hold back, send them through.

We'll line you up for when I'm back where we're organised.

We're planning.

We we we put plans in place.

So please don't hesitate to get in touch.

I'd love to hear from you.

It's my favourite thing of the week is talking to real people about real

tech issues or questions or problems, and it doesn't have to be a problem.

It can be simply you've got something new and you want to brag about it.

I mean, that's what the that's how the pocket AI thing came about.

And as I said, I've since been trolling another one.

And I'll probably do my applaud review in the next week and a half.

They've now got chatty between regression, which was the one thing

I wanted from pocket AI.

So oh, tough one, maybe it's the better one.

That said, I'd love to hear from you anytime, any day you can text.

It won't wake me up.

Don't worry.

Feel free to get in touch, folks.

I'd love to hear from you.

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