Why Leno's Law Failed

Hello, and welcome to this week's The Truth About Cars podcast.

I am Tim Healy, managing editor, and this week we have Seamus, Christian Robinson, on to

discuss Leno's law, why it's stalled, and where it goes from here.

We also discuss oil filters and NASCAR Bristol, with T-TEC contributor Matthew Guy.

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And also check us out online at T-TEC.com, or the Truth About Cars, allspotout.com.

We are your home for car reviews, car news, opinions, and so, so much more.

Here on the Truth About Cars podcast, we are always talking about the stuff that we

use in our homes and on our cars, or in our cars, as the case may be.

And as always, we have T-TEC contributor Matthew Guy with us to discuss this.

Matthew, how are you doing today?

Hey, man.

I'm doing pretty good.

What are you up to?

Are you doing pretty good today?

I'm doing well, doing well, just trying to deal with the transition of seasons from summer

to fall.

So, yeah, speaking of fall, sometimes for some people, this might be the time of year to

do an oil change.

So we're talking about oil filters today.

That's right.

And that's a really good point, because sometimes we might not be quite up on mileage

in terms of getting the oil changed in our cars.

But there's also a time, you know, limitation there as well.

Sometimes if oil sits for a while or things of that nature, it's just really good

to get an oil change.

And you're right.

You know, the change of the seasons is a pretty good time to get it done,

especially going into the fall where temperatures get a bit cooler in some

parts of the country.

So, yeah.

And I was just doing small changes on some vehicles the weekend.

So I decided to, you know, just pick up some oil filters there from eBay

just to prepare for that.

And if any of our listeners are new in just trying to get into wrenching,

you know, oil changes are a pretty good way to start.

You know, they're pretty...

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Absolutely.

You and I have talked about this, you know, in the segment of our podcast

before about the different types of like oil filter wrenches and stuff

like that that a person can buy.

But as for the filter itself, it's important, of course, to get the right one.

And a place like eBay has some really good filtering, pun intended,

filtering tools for making sure that you do find the right one, right?

So on eBay motors, you can just go in and plunk in the type of car

for which you're seeking the oil filter.

And it'll spit back a bunch of options for you.

And I do try to stick with I don't generally go with the cheapest option.

I generally try to stick with brands that I know.

Some people will, you know, crap on some different brands, you know, say,

oh, you know, those are no good or whatever.

But, you know, I've always had good luck with name brands in the past.

You know, some red ones or some orange ones, right,

without mentioning any particular brands in being specific.

But I do generally go for that because there is a difference

inside these filters.

If you're if a person is unfamiliar, there are, you know, paper

products in there that do filter the oil and some are better than others.

And some filter types are different than others, too.

If you're working on like a Dodge Charger, for example,

or anything with 3.6 liter V6, it's a cartridge style, right?

So most of the times when we think about oil filters,

we think about the ones that have the metal on the outside

that you screw right onto the engine.

That 3.6, the Pentastar, for example, is a really good example of something

that just has the cartridge, just basically has the paper part of the filter.

And then that goes down in on top of the engine.

There's a cap there that you take off and you just easiest thing in the world

to switch those out.

So anyways, but those it's important to get the right one

and it's important to get a good quality one.

So almost like, you know, buying beer or buying wine or something like that.

Don't go for the cheapest one, get the second cheap.

Right. You can always find that on eBay, of course.

Exactly, right?

And there's all kinds of different options.

And eBay makes it real simple to make sure you got the right one.

Sometimes in your owner's manual, if you still got one for your car,

it'll specify a part number.

And one of the things that one of the few things that the parts

industry does right is share these part numbers.

So if you're looking at and I will use specifics here,

if you're looking at a fram versus up in my neck in the woods,

a Canadian tire filter, the last however many digits,

four or five digits will be the same.

So that way, yeah, right?

So if you're looking at a nine, seven, six, eight, it's going to be a nine,

seven, six, eight for both of those particular brands.

And I'm pretty sure that applies to a lot of different stores down in the states, too.

So it's a really good way.

All change really good way just to get involved in doing some maintenance

on your car, a great way to start.

Yeah, and it's that time of year.

And I didn't even mean to do that.

I was trying to do a nice little segue, but it kind of worked out.

So yeah, that's why you're the host, bro.

Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah, so obviously not a ton of oil filters.

I will not a ton that we haven't already covered, I should say.

I will remind our listeners that with a lot of oil filters,

it's never a bad idea to put a take out as you do your oil change.

Grab just a little bit like a droplet on your finger and sort of ring the filter.

I forget why it's supposed to be done.

I think it's just kind of lubricate it as you screw it into place.

And also, just like you said, three point six and the Dodge Challenger,

be aware of specific functions and different engines.

I know there's a few engines out there that have two oil filters.

This is not related to oil filters, but the end of the old five liter

and Fox body Mustangs had a crimp in the oil pan to make room

for suspension component and that meant it had two drain plugs.

So you need to, you know, if you have an old Fox body,

make sure you check to drain both plugs.

I know it's different than filters, but while we're on the subject.

So other than that, is there anything we haven't haven't covered,

you know, safety or or anything else?

We're just missing one console filters.

I know they're pretty straightforward there.

And that's a great tip.

You talked about the different oil pans and, you know, things of that nature

because it all just runs, you know, along with the job.

And I do I don't know if this is just an old tech tip

or something that's not needed to be done anymore.

But I generally just run the engine for, you know,

in a ventilated area, of course, you know, for a couple of minutes

before doing doing the oil change, just to make sure it's up to a temp

and it flows out easier and you get all of it, right?

Yeah, but don't run it too long, because then it'll be too hot.

You know, risk burning your hand, taking the filter off

or you'll have to wait for it to cool down.

Exactly, right?

So there's all these little nuances that if you're just getting

into wrenching on cars that you'll figure out over time.

Yeah. And, you know, it's a really, really good way

to get started on wrenching on your own car.

Absolutely. OK, with that, we will go ahead and wrap this week's

stuff we use second here on the Truthwell Cars podcast.

Thank you, Matthew.

Thank you.

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On this week's The Truth About Cars podcast,

we're talking with Christian Robinson from SEMA,

the Specialty Equipment Market Association.

Is that correct?

You got it.

And you are the Director of State Government Affairs?

Yep.

Awesome, two for two.

All right, so what we're talking about is Leno's Law

and those of you who are regular listeners

to the TTAC podcast will remember

we talked about this a few months ago.

And it looks like Leno's Law at this point has not passed.

So what we're gonna do is we're gonna talk to you Christian

about what happened there

and what the next steps are.

But also first Christian,

can you refresh the memory for our listeners

who have not, well actually first of all,

refresh the memory of those listeners

who heard our podcast a few months ago

and just don't really remember what Leno's Law is.

And then of course, Phil and those who did not hear it

and do not quite know what it is.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So Leno's Law was a bill in California, SB 712

was the bill number that was introduced this year

by Senators Shannon Grove and Dave Cortezzi,

Grocer Republican Cortezzi, a Democrat

that was officially sponsored by renowned late night

talk show hosting comedian and well-known car guy,

Jay Leno.

Sure, sure.

That would have amended the notorious smog check program

for motor vehicles in the state of California.

You know, a lot of folks nationwide,

even if they're not from the Golden State

are familiar with California smog check

and they have one of the more stringent smog check

programs in the country.

Basically any vehicle that's made after 1975

is subject to some sort of emissions check

in order to be driven on the road in the state.

That date has not changed in over 20 years.

It used to be a rolling exemption

which is what a number of states do.

So once your vehicle hits a certain age, 25, 30 years,

you're no longer required to go every other year

and have a check done.

So Leno's law was a,

I think a pretty common sense reform

of the smog check program in the state

and it saw a number of amendments

during its legislative process.

But when it was first introduced,

it basically proposed to say

that if it's a collector vehicle,

so one that is not driven for daily use,

you're not taking it to the grocery store

or taking the kids to soccer practice in it,

you're just taking it out for cars and coffee

or parades or car club events

and it's at least 35 years old,

then you would be exempt from that program.

The bill made its way through the legislature

almost all the way through.

By the time that it met its end in late August,

the bill had been amended to say that

you had to be a collector vehicle,

meet that definition of collector vehicle insurance,

have historic tags, historical tags

and then it created a quasi-rolling program.

So it wouldn't have gone into effect until 2027

and at that point it would have said,

okay, vehicles between 76 and 81 are exempt

if they met the insurance and license plate requirement

and then in 2028, you would have added a year and so forth.

So by the time you got to 2032,

you would have been up to 1986

and that's when the program would have been up

for reauthorization and the legislature could see

if it was working and assess how they wanted

to move forward from there.

Do you know why the bill did not get further?

At the end of the day, it came down to money, unfortunately.

It wasn't on policy.

The state, California, really ever since COVID

has been running a pretty sizable budget deficit.

I think this year as they were heading

into the legislative session,

they were looking at somewhere between 15

and $25 billion that they were in the hall.

So there was not an appetite to create new programs

in the state that would cost money.

On top of that, and this was really the key issue

is that the state's DMV, which is funded differently,

was set to be insolvent within the next couple of years.

So the governor made very clear in his budget proposal

that please do not create any new programs for the DMV.

We did our darnedest to try to get those costs reduced.

But at the end of the day, where the bill met its end

was in the appropriations committee in the assembly

and they solely look at these bills

in terms of dollars and cents.

And they got the message about where the DMV stood

with its finances and said,

we better not move this one forward.

Let's take a look at it.

Come back and try again later

and hopefully things are in a better place for the DMV.

But ultimately it came down to money.

Yeah, okay, so what are the next steps then?

What do you try again?

I don't know California law particularly well,

so I don't know the scheduling and the timing of that.

So do you try again the next legislative session?

If it's about money,

do you have to sort of wait for the DMV and the state

to basically plug holes in the deficit?

I mean, how does this work?

What is the next steps or rather the next steps?

Yeah, good question.

So California, they are unique.

Their legislature is year round.

Most states, they come in in January

and they are done by the time

the kids are getting out of school for the summer.

So California is year round.

So as we are recording this,

they will be done with their legislative session here

in the next couple of days, so mid-September.

They will come back in January.

So that gives us roughly 90 so days

to put our thinking caps on

and come back with a new bill next year,

which we are absolutely planning on doing

and trying to get creative

so that we can have a program that works

for enthusiasts and consumers

that will not cost the state any additional money,

particularly the DMV.

So yes, we will be starting over again in 2026.

The bill won't carry over, so to speak,

but this, we had really good momentum this year.

We had thousands of letters sent to lawmakers.

We held a rally in June where our members went to Sacramento

and this was the number one issue

that they were talking about.

Our staff, we made several trips to Sacramento.

So lawmakers have been hearing about it

throughout the year.

It received a lot of press attention,

thanks to Jay Leno.

So I think looking ahead,

we've got good momentum going into next year.

So it's not as if we will be having

to educate lawmakers from scratch.

I'm curious and I don't know if you can speak this or not,

but what were the costs that were holding,

that was holding the DMV

and the California government back?

I mean, I assume switching over tags,

if you have a vehicle that the owner wants

to get historical tags so the vehicle

can be in compliance, obviously there's a cost there,

but also consumers are paying.

I assume the consumer pays a fee to get new tags

or that sort of thing.

So I assume it's nice actually.

So what were the costs that were really

kind of causing the hold back?

Yeah, good question.

So when a committee like the Assembly Appropriation Committee

here is a bill and really any committee in California

when they hear a bill, an analysis is written

for the committee, several page document

that outlines what the bill does, who's introducing it.

When you go into those Appropriations Committee

or Money Committee, staff will do their due diligence

and talk to impacted agencies to assess

what the costs are gonna be.

So we have a pretty good idea of what it was,

but when you have a historical plate,

you are paying less money into the DMV

because you're using it less.

So that's lost revenue for this day.

The DMV in California is famously going through

a technological upgrade of the DMV for their IT systems.

And DMV says, well, if we're creating a new program here,

that's new IT costs associated with this program

and that will cost X thousands of dollars.

It even gets into everyone's favorite four letter word,

carb, where they come in and they say,

well, if we're exempting more vehicles

from the small check program,

that is more emissions that we have got

to get cleaned up statewide

as part of our implementation program,

but the federal government for not meeting

there are quality standards

and that could be millions of dollars.

And that is a ridiculous assertion on their part.

But you look at the DMV saying,

we've got to have new staffers in place

to ensure that the insurance,

the collector's insurance is up to par

and that's gonna cost us $500,000.

So it all adds up pretty quickly and some of it,

you can get a preview of where these agencies are

and have conversations with them

to see if you can't get on the same page,

which is one of the things that we will be doing

and did throughout the process.

So in a sense it's good that they're a bit of an open book,

the state, the legislature in that regard,

so we can see where these committees heads are at

and where we need to do work.

Gotcha, yeah.

So how much, I think I asked you this,

I'm trying to figure out the card phrasing

so bear with me just a moment,

but I believe I asked you this last time we chatted,

but what is the percentage of vehicles that would fall?

Let's say that those law passes on tri number two.

What is the percentage of vehicles in California?

It can't be high, I mean, I understand California

is the most populous state in the nation,

there's 30, I think it's almost 40,

I think it's almost 40 million people now,

but I think the percentage of vehicles

that would fall under this umbrella

would have to be pretty small.

Do you happen to know what it is?

Less than 1% with-

Wow, I would have gone 2 or 3%.

Yeah, would qualify simply based on their age

when we were looking at the 35 year

rolling collector vehicle exemption.

Then if you were to include the collector vehicle requirement,

you know, those vehicles have to be of a certain standard

for a group like Haggerty to consider ensuring them

so that number would be whittled down even more.

So you're talking about a very small number of vehicles,

ultimately, I can't tell you the exact amount,

but it's pretty marginal, all things being equal.

Well, that is actually part of the reason why I asked

about the cost too, because I felt like

the cost couldn't be all that high,

although you did block me through it pretty well.

I can't mention the cost being super high

when you only have fewer than 1% of the vehicles

in the state affected.

Yeah, agreed, agreed.

So that, you know, that's where it's our job

to continue to work with these agencies

to, you know, kind of lay the groundwork

so that we can address these issues head on

going into the next session.

Yeah, and then, so my next question for you is,

you said there was not really any policy pushback.

This was all about dollars and cents, as it often is,

when it comes to state government,

but was there any policy pushback at all?

Was there anyone who you had to convince, like, hey,

excuse me, like, hey, pardon me,

anyone you had to convince to be like, hey, you know,

this amount of cars are so small,

really won't pollute all that much,

or, you know, this is a common sense.

Was there any, especially from legislators themselves,

not necessarily the general public,

or maybe people who do jobs like I do

who might've been critical, was there a lot of pushback,

or was it most folks on board with you guys?

There, most folks were on board with us,

but there definitely was some policy pushback

from lawmakers along the way.

You know, if you go watch, particularly,

the Senate Transportation Committee hearing

where Jay came and testified and Seema's,

our president and CEO, Mike Spagnola testified as well.

Everyone has an affinity for these vehicles.

What the legislature was really concerned with

was making sure that there were safeguards in place

to make sure that, you know,

deserving vehicles were the only ones

receiving this exception.

And that it wasn't just open to any old vehicle

where the owner could self-certify

that it was a classic vehicle, a historic vehicle.

You know, that it really was the one

that's going to a car as a coffee weekend mornings.

And that's really where you started to see amendments

that were being taken to require the insurance

or to have the license plate requirement in there.

And then, you know, there was,

you have lawmakers also come back and say,

hey, like we liked that those guardrails are in place,

but what we'd really like to further ensure is

that those guardrails are working,

which is how you came up with the, you know,

the five year reauthorization,

that the checkpoint to make sure that indeed

the safeguards that they put in place

were acting as safeguards

and that really the only true collector vehicles

were getting through.

So we did receive pushback in that regard,

which is how you ended up with those amendments,

but, you know, we did not have,

we really did not have many lawmakers throw their hands up

and say absolutely not under no circumstances.

I mean, if you look at like the votes on it,

when it went to the floor of the Senate,

it received only three no votes

out of 40 senators with a democratic supermajority.

So, you know, and those no votes were pretty far

left liberal environmentalists.

So, no, you know, outside of those concerns

that I outlined, we really didn't have

any huge pushback from lawmakers.

Okay, cool.

And then the next question I have for you is,

so especially with the amendments to the bill

that we're trying to make sure

that a car really was a classic.

So I'm really curious,

walk me through three different scenarios here.

Let's say there is 1980,

that year would qualify, right?

Or let me check the math on that, it would, okay.

It would have, right out of the gate, yeah.

Okay, let's say I'm trying to think of a car

that was on the market, maybe, actually, you know what?

Let's go with my first car, it was an 84.

So it would qualify, it would have been

that first year, right?

Would have qualified in one of the later years

of the program, but eventually it would have, yeah.

Okay, so let's say I had an 84 for Bronco too.

That's my first car, just what I had.

And then let's say there were three different versions.

Let's say one was well-maintained,

driven fairly often, maybe not quite a daily driver,

needed a little bit of work,

but could pass California smog tests.

The other one was a collector vehicle,

almost never driven, historical tags,

fit all the requirements of the bill.

And the third was a clunker, barely ran,

couldn't pass smog tests,

or if it did, it had to be kind of cheated.

You know, obviously the one car would qualify

because of the amendments to the bill,

but that gray area vehicle, the one that's well-maintained,

and obviously the other one wouldn't qualify,

but the one that's like a well-maintained,

so I guess what I'm trying to ask is,

if you have a well-maintained vehicle

that's in that age range,

but it's not necessarily a collector car,

what happens to that?

Or does it just have to go

through normal California smog,

and you can still...

Yeah, it would have just had to go

through the regular smog check program.

Now, there is another option.

California does have a,

I like to call it the partial exemption

that's already on the books,

which frankly, almost nobody takes advantage of

if you talk to the beer a lot about it for a pair,

is that if the vehicle has got collector's insurance,

and is at least 35 years old,

you go in, they give you a tailpipe test

for the year of the manufacturer,

so you're not being held to today's standards,

and they look to make sure

that your gas cap is essentially not leaking,

and you're on your way.

Okay, that seems a little simpler then.

Yeah.

Some of the more strict rules that they have in that state.

But otherwise, yeah, you would have gone

through the regular tailpipe test

because of the age of the vehicle,

but that is part of the problem

that we were trying to solve is,

when you get into a vehicle of that vintage,

it uses a legacy emissions test, the Bar 97 test.

Most modern vehicles, it's an OBD2 test.

So you show up, they plug into the port in your vehicle,

and it scans the computer to see if there are any errors.

Well, older vehicles, they don't have that.

Nothing from, nothing older than the late 90s would have that.

So there are a lot of cars

that are demanding that test these days.

So what you would often see is that the stations

in California, the smog check stations,

which are independently run, you know, at small businesses,

if I showed up at my local smog check stations,

I'm likely seeing one or two things.

One, they're either charging you an arm

and a leg to have the test done

because it costs a lot to keep the machine up to date

and not a lot of people are using it.

Or it is quote unquote broken when you show up to do it.

So, you know, we hear over and over again,

and the data really backs this up if you look at it,

that it is a lot harder to get a smog check done

on an older vehicle, just because there aren't

that many of them.

And there aren't that many places that will offer it.

Yeah, okay, that makes a lot of sense.

So I was curious, and I guess I kind of answered

my own question as I was talking to you,

but so I guess you have an older vehicle

that would be in this age range,

but it's not a collector vehicle.

You're just used to your own,

you're either just using the regular smog test

or what you just said, the bar 97.

So the same thing if you have a clunker,

you know, if you have a barely running clunker

or whatever.

So, okay, that makes more sense.

I was just trying to get it all straight in my head.

And then I was actually just in California

a couple of days ago, and when you're out there,

there are cars that are definitely running around

that you know probably wouldn't pass that mission.

So we're talking really about collector cars specifically

and not just someone who's got an older vehicle

that they're keeping running.

So okay, that's good to clarify.

I wanted to ask also about,

I don't think we talked about this the first time

you and I chatted.

I wanted to talk to you about Jay's influence

as a celebrity.

I mean, how big of a deal is it to have?

And we just, wow, sorry.

When we say Jay Leno's a celebrity,

we don't just mean he's a car enthusiast

that everyone knows, he's a whole other level.

He's super A-list, you know, he ran the tonight show

for, hosted the night show for however many years.

You know, when I was a kid, I mold enough to remember

the transition from Carson to Leno.

And you know, Jay Leno is obviously a household name

whether you're car person or not.

Everyone knows who he is.

So how much influence does that having someone like him

really sort of help as you,

as you try and get this bill to pass on the second shot?

Yeah, it's a huge help having somebody like Jay involved

because like he said, he is, he's a household name, right?

If you don't know him from the car world,

you remember him as the host of the night show.

You know, he was a great sponsor of the bill

because he was, you know,

willing to do a lot more than just put his name on it.

You know, he came up to Sacramento,

testified for, and it was a long hearing on the bill.

It testified in support of the bill,

answered all the lawmakers questions.

There was a rally on the steps of the Capitol

that morning and a car cruise.

So it was a long day and, you know,

he was more than willing to go up and do it.

And, you know, he having his name attached to it

raised quite a bit of awareness for the effort.

You know, there have been,

it has been 20 years since California has amended

the cutoff date for a smog check exemption.

And since then, there has really been no effort

that has gotten as far as this bill.

And the X factor there is Mr. Leno's involvement.

There have been similar bills in recent years

that would have changed the date for the smog check

and they couldn't even get a hearing.

The chair of the first committee that was gonna hear it

would say, hey, listen,

you can have your bill heard in committee,

but I'm gonna put a no recommendation on it.

And if you get a no recommendation from the chair,

it's in California, it is essentially a game over.

So having Jay's support, his effort and his name on it

was, you know, exponentially helpful.

We not only got it through that first committee,

which other bills couldn't do,

but we got it out of the Senate

through the assembly transportation committee

and was one step away from having it on the assembly for

where it likely would have passed.

So, you know, and the other thing you can look at

is the media attention that it received, you know,

it was, it received substantially more media attention

than any effort in the past has all because of Jay.

And, you know, the reality is,

is that even if you're not a car person,

you probably have some sort of memory involving a car

and you, there's not a person out there

that doesn't like classic cars.

And so, you know, when those stories run,

they are typically very favorable to the effort.

And like I said, that's all because of Jay.

So, you really can't quantify how important his involvement

was and, you know, look forward to working with him again

next year on this effort.

Yeah, it makes sense.

And you actually kind of answered another question too.

I was going to ask how involved he was

as opposed to just loaning his name,

but it sounds like he was pretty involved.

Is there anything else?

I think we're kind of tie down time.

I feel like I've really covered a lot of ground here,

but is there anything else we've missed?

Anything you'd like to add?

Anything that you think I probably should have asked

that I just didn't quite understand

or anything like that?

Anything you want to kind of bring up

that we haven't already talked about?

No, you know, I, you know, I always come back to,

you know, I'm really competitive.

Everyone that works in Seema's government affairs office

we're all really competitive by nature.

Most people in politics are.

So I really hate to lose.

So, you know, it stings that we weren't able to get

across the finish line this year,

but you know, at the end of the day,

you know, you don't, this is not the time

where you tuck tail and run or take your ball home.

You know, we, we got, we, we moved the ball forward

more than anyone has in 20 years.

And it's, ple, really proud of the momentum

that we had this year.

So looking forward to coming back next year.

Hopefully you and I can talk about it in January

when the bill gets reintroduced.

But, you know, anxious to get back in the game

and really make a difference on this issue.

Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of collector car owners

and enthusiasts are in that same boat.

And I would probably guess that most are on board with this.

Maybe, maybe, maybe almost all.

You know, I think almost all are with the concept,

you know, not all the amendments.

If I'm being honest on all the amendments were popular.

People have people, you know,

they don't want to go get the historic tag.

I don't...

Right, it's extra work extra money.

Yeah, they want that vintage tag on their car.

And I agree.

So, you know, we're going to come back in January

with, you know, I think with language

that I think everyone can agree on

and everyone will be pleased with.

So we have homework to do, but you know,

it's fun homework.

It's the type of homework that it gets me excited.

So.

Sounds like a plan.

So again, we've been talking with Christian Robinson

from SEMA about the, for now at least,

stalled out Leno's law bill in California,

which would, if it passes,

make it a little bit easier for certain collector car owners

to not have to worry about smog checks in that state.

So again, Christian, thank you so much for your time

and we'll follow up with you down the road.

I'm not just on this issue,

but other issues that might be involving SEMA

and either the federal government

or various state governments.

And we'll certainly follow up on this issue

after the new year when California

was back in the session, legislatively.

That's great.

I appreciate it again.

And so.

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Here in the Truth about Cars podcast,

we are always talking NASCAR,

especially as we dig deeper into the NASCAR plans.

And I believe the race at Bristol's past weekend

wrapped our first round of the NASCAR cup playoff.

So we always have Matthew Guy with us,

T-Tech contributor.

Matthew, how are you doing today?

Hey, really good, Tim.

Looking forward to talking about Bristol.

Yeah, so you can go ahead and lead us off.

You had a lot in your mind when it comes to Bristol.

Yeah, well, always do, right?

I mean, there's always us, you know, old school fans,

you know, like me, we've been watching it for years.

Say, oh, you know, they screwed up Bristol,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And we just love to complain about stuff.

It doesn't matter what it is.

But there was a lot of tire fall off, you know?

I mean, this was definitely a race

in which we saw a lot of people wear out their tires

very quickly to the point where NASCAR said,

yeah, you can use an extra set of tires in the race.

And there's nuances there between, you know,

the sides that they were allowed to put extra tires on.

But, you know, in a nutshell, that's what NASCAR said.

They recognized that tires were running out,

were wearing out, sorry, really, really quickly.

So that's a huge deal.

And, you know, the ask, you know, from the industry, right,

was defined, you know, a bit of that.

And this was asked for, right?

Just for a good year to work on the tires a little bit.

And because this was a night race,

I don't think we would have seen quite the tire issues

for lack of a better term

if it was two o'clock in the afternoon, right?

And, you know, if it was the next day

if it was a typical daytime race,

because the sun would have been out

and the surface has to be a certain temp, right,

for those tires to last a little bit longer.

And Bristol being the unique surface anyways.

And, I mean, that's something that's really new.

Kevin Harvick talked about it a lot

over on his podcast on Happy Hour.

And, you know, but he talked about those surface temps.

And he's right, you know, they matter

as to whether the tires are actually gonna lay

any rubber down or do what they did.

But it did, I think it made the race,

you know, super intriguing.

It wasn't dangerous in any way.

It's not like if tires are blowing at Talladega

or something like that,

where there's a lot of danger for when that happens.

There's always danger out on the track.

I mean, never want to see anything happen.

But when tires are falling out for Bristol,

you just end up with really, you know,

different lap times than they might expect

and people pick in different lanes

and things like that.

So I think that it was a good race, you know?

It was something that was entertaining to watch.

And, you know, old tires, they just really, really, you know,

they just kind of seemed to push the cars up

in the middle of the corners for lack of a better term.

I know I'm using pretty specific old guy terms there.

But I think that it was a good race.

And, you know, we saw the other aspects of it as well.

Like, you know, the playoffs,

and we can talk about, you know,

who made it and who didn't and things like that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Later in the podcast as well.

So, but I thought it was a really interesting

and entertaining race.

And Bristol usually is,

but certainly, you know, brought back some of that this year.

Yeah, and I don't say,

I don't think you're using old guy terms.

I think people still use the term push for understeer

and pull for, or is it the way around?

Is it push for understeer and pull for?

Oh, you're right.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I guess I don't hear a pull as much.

I hear loose.

I hear tight and loose more than push and pull as opposed to

but when you are understeering,

you car literally is kind of pushing.

The front is pushing.

It won't turn.

And I think a lot of people have experienced that

in their streetcars in bad weather,

especially since most streetcars are tuned

to understeer, particularly if it's snowing or raining.

So if you've never driven on a racetrack,

but you've been on an icy road

and you try to turn in the front wheels

like a lost grip and the car wouldn't turn,

that's understeer.

That's push.

That's what Matthew was referring to.

If you're fishtailing,

if you're back in broke loose first

and then you're oftentimes steering into the skid

and opposite lock steering and to save it,

that would be oversteer.

So Matthew's not exactly using old guy terms here.

These are still a very much viable term.

So don't worry, Matthew, you're still young.

My hairline will disagree with you.

There it is.

Yeah, but yeah, both my hairline,

my hairline is fine,

but the color of my hair has definitely changed.

So age is kicking in,

but playoff, speaking of age,

we're looking at the drivers

who are going to likely advance

in the four out of the cut line.

I'm not seeing a lot of the,

except for Denny Hamlin,

who is our age and who is right now

in the number one position.

You're starting to see

most of the younger guys, of course.

And we've been following Shane van Geisberg

in the season all year long,

and I don't see any way he's moving on.

So unless I'm missing something,

I don't fully understand the format with the cut line.

I'm trying to figure this out.

So help me through this.

There's the elimination.

We go from 16 drivers to, I think,

12 to eight to four to champion, right?

So what I don't quite understand

is there's eight drivers now

that are above the cut line,

and then there are four below.

And then the next race,

well, the October 5th race,

so that's actually not the next race,

a couple of races from now,

the next three races.

So these are four,

four or three race bunches for the playoffs.

So these next four drivers are,

so the way I'm understanding it and help me,

I should know this,

because we've been talking about playoffs for months,

but I've always had a hard time

fully getting it straight in my head.

But if I'm getting it right,

the eight drivers that are above the cut line

are the most likely to move on

after the October 5th race.

And these four drivers,

99, 10, 11, 12, Austin, Cintrick, Joey Logano,

Ross, Chastain, Tyler Redick,

if they don't move up,

they're gonna be the ones cut.

So, and anyone below that has already been cut.

So I think I got that right.

Yeah, and the very fact that we have to talk about this

in like an Excel spreadsheet is proof

that this playoff format needs a bit of work.

I don't even know if it's a format,

so much as this is a way

NASCAR lists things on their website,

because it actually,

when you think it through,

it's actually pretty self-expansory.

It's actually pretty simple.

That if you, all you have to say is,

drivers 99 through 12 are the most likely to be eliminated

unless they get more points or win a race.

That's really simple.

But the way it's said on the website,

you know, it looks like it's confusing.

And I think they need to do a better job

of explaining it on their website,

which is what I'm looking at in front of me right now.

The official NASCAR playoff listing.

But if you just say, hey,

right now, one through eight,

those guys are gonna move on

whoever falls nine through 12 will be eliminated.

That's simple.

A kindergartner could figure that one out.

But the way they list,

but the fact that they list,

and I think part of it is because they're listing

the ninth, 10th, 11th, 12th driver.

And obviously those guys could move up.

But it's an easier way to say it would be

these 12 guys from Denny Hamlin on down to Tyler Reddick

have moved on.

And four of those guys

are in the elimination spots right now.

But of course that can change

over the course of three races.

Say it that way.

Now I understand it.

Yep.

And that's exactly the way it is, right?

I mean, they put that cutoff line there,

I guess to create a bit of drama to say,

oh, you know, there's four guys below cutoff line

and Astron Syndrax only a point behind

and he only needs to make up X-Tumbler.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it makes sense

if you're a stick and ball sport fan

and you're looking at magic numbers

near the end of a regular season

and you're looking at like,

as teams qualify for the playoffs,

obviously once stick and ball sports start the playoffs,

they don't have cut lines.

They just have whoever wins or loses a series.

But when you're looking at like,

this time of year in baseball especially,

and you're looking at teams that are kind of

on the bubble of making the playoffs or not,

that's kind of how they're doing it.

Like, hey, this team, if they win,

they're in the playoffs, they don't, they're not.

But it's a little more confusing

because these are guys who already have qualified

for the next round.

It's just that they're in a precarious,

it's just that the bottom four guys

are at this moment in a precarious position.

But it could change.

Especially as you said,

Cintrix only one point off.

Logano and Chastain two and Redick three.

So, you know, all it takes is a couple,

couple of positions shuffled next week

and then the bottom four is different.

So that's why it's a little confusing.

I think NASCAR is used to explain it a little bit better.

Yeah. And you're right.

Cause I mean, in playoffs, I'm sorry,

baseball is a great way, is a great example to give

because, you know, the Jays are X number of games

ahead of the Yankees and-

Right.

And so those types of terms translate

to this sort of playoff structure.

And it's just, I mean, the whole different thing is,

is that there aren't other non-playoff teams in baseball

impacting who's going to win.

Of course, we've talked about it before,

more than a few times.

We've talked about it so many times before.

Yeah.

But anyway, but you know, we do have Denny Hamlin

right now was sitting in a good spot

to move on to the next round.

Might this be his year?

We'll see.

Because I mean, it's just so being able

to come down to that last race,

which is another conversation altogether.

So we do have, I mean, all of the Gibbs drivers,

right, made it right, I think,

looking at the numbers here.

And there was a penalty assessed to the 11 team

that I was just a bit of housekeeping there

because-

Oh yeah, 11 car.

Yeah, well, the 11 car lost a tire.

Excuse me.

And they issued a penalty to a couple of crew members

just for that, right, for that,

for that transgression for lack of a better term.

And there's different rules in there

and they can defer that penalty for a week

and things of that nature.

So yeah, so that was,

I think that's about the only housekeeping

that came out of that.

What is the next, I'm looking at schedule here now.

Me too, you and I, sometimes we produce on the air

and you and I are on the same page here.

So yeah, the next race is,

oh, I'm looking at, I'm looking at Bristol.

No, this is New Hampshire on Sunday, the 21st.

So we're going back to the Sundays

and two o'clock Eastern.

So if you're a football fan, an NASCAR fan,

get ready to warm up your remote for some channel flipping.

That's gonna be how it is till the end of this playoffs

because football and NASCAR are

both Sunday sports, certainly speaking.

So yeah, the other next race is in New Hampshire.

And I guess what I was trying to say,

just to go back to the cut line discussion,

I guess what I was trying to say is that

their website just makes it more confusing

than it has to be.

It's just really simple to say,

these, just to go 16 drivers make the first,

you know, the top 16 are the first three races.

The top, excuse me, 16 are in the first three,

then four get eliminated from those first three

and then you get 12, just listed one through 12.

That's the easiest right there.

Instead of getting this whole cut line thing,

you know, that's where it's confusing.

But yeah, anyway, New Hampshire is next.

So that's gonna be a good 300 miler or a little,

actually, I'm sorry, I read that one was 300 laps.

So a little over 300 miles,

kind of an odd number, 318 to be precise.

That is an odd number.

It does make it stand out though, right?

Cause they say the mobile one 301, 300 laps.

And I think they used to have some back in the day

that were like whatever the sponsor is 318.

What's the name of that?

That New Hampshire is such a strange track.

And just because of the way it's run

and some trivia for you back in the day

when there were a number of incidents,

you know, that were major, major incidents,

they ran restrictive plates on that race for one race.

And it was a parade.

I think it was Jeff Burton who led,

I believe from the poll,

which rarely ever happens in NASCAR.

I mean, in the modern era, especially,

I mean, it happens in F1 all the time.

So maybe it's just a trivia there for New Hampshire,

but that's coming up Sunday at two o'clock Eastern.

Like you said, that'll be competing head to head

with football in a lot of markets.

Yeah, and it's also the most common type of track

in NASCAR, you're a mile intermediate,

mile to mile and a half.

And just looking and looking forward

at the rest of the schedule,

I'm already thinking about November apparently,

but looking at the rest of the schedule,

I just click through on every track.

We've got New Hampshire and then we've got Kansas,

a mile, a mile and a half intermediate.

Charlotte's the only road course left

and there's really the Roval.

That's two and a, I think 2.2 miles, something like that.

So the only road course left then we're going to Vegas,

another mile and a half intermediate.

Talladega, the only super speedway left.

Martinsville, the only other short track

outside of Bristol really, the half miler.

And then of course we finish on, guess what,

an intermediate mile and a half in Phoenix.

So the majority of the races here on out

are mile to mile and a half intermediates,

which are NASCAR's bed and brother,

and we've talked about that before

a million times in the podcast.

How I personally would like to see a few more road courses,

but the mile to mile and a half intermediate

is kind of the main track.

We only have a couple of super speedways

in Daytona and Talladega.

And then you have kind of the Outlaw year in India,

which is two and a half miles,

but it's a fast track, but is it a super speedway?

I'm not sure what it's considered to be.

I actually can take a quick look at the old

Indy motor speedway here.

I think that's considered just a regular,

I don't think it's considered a speedway.

But anyway, we're going to be intermediate heavy

going through the rest of the playoffs.

You very much so.

And that favors drivers who've been around

for a spell and who can adapt to those types of things.

And my prediction of SVG making it through on points

to the round of 12 was not born out.

So I asked their listeners to call me out on that.

And there it is.

So.

Yeah, that's a bit of a bummer.

I would like to have seen Shane at least get

to the Roval and see if he would have won the Roval.

I don't think he was going to win the championship this year.

No, no.

But my money is still on.

And when I say that, I mean that hypothetically,

I've not placed any actual bets.

My money is probably on Hamlin at this point,

just given where he's at in the standings.

But it's close.

I mean, Larson's only two points back.

Byron's only two points back.

Bell's just four.

And Lugano, I believe, was last year's champ.

He can easily, being only two points down,

easily roll into that top eight

between now and the next, between now and October 5th.

And I wouldn't count, I wouldn't count anybody out

above a wall.

These are all drivers who've had good seasons to this point.

These are all A-lists.

When I say A-lists, I'm not talking about fame

or the most well-known.

I'm talking about drivers who are always

in the hunt for the championship.

Guys who are typically most years in it.

So there's no names on this list that surprise me,

whether you're talking about the top eight,

excuse me, we're talking about the top eight

or the four that are below the cut line currently.

So, you know, none of these are all names that at the end,

if you would ask me at the beginning of the year

that you would have said these top 12 guys are in it

after the first round of the playoffs,

I would have said, okay, yeah, nothing is shocking here.

Makes sense.

Yeah, you know, but that would have been nice to see

a Shane Van Gisburgen or a Daniel Suarez

who needs a ride after this year.

You know, someone like that,

someone who's had some success

that hasn't quite been in the championship hunt.

I would have liked to have seen that.

But, you know, these drivers are all guys

who expect to be there.

And that's kind of how it goes in most sports, right?

You have your year in and year out,

you have your competitive set who,

whether you're talking about stick,

we're talking about baseball, football, basketball.

Football might be the one that changes the most every year

just cause there's a lot of roster turnover.

But football, baseball, basketball, hockey,

within any five year or 10 year window,

there's always a few teams that are generally in it.

And eventually those teams will cycle out

as they rebuild and stuff and as players retire.

And you'll see that with drivers too.

Some of these drivers eventually will age out and retire

and new guys will come along

and some of those guys will establish themselves

as year in and year out competitors.

But right now we're in a window

where these guys over the past two years

have been the names that you would expect to see

in the playoffs.

And that's where we are again here in 2025.

And it all comes down to that last race anyways,

whoever squeaks it through to that championship four,

you look at last year,

I mean, Logano won the championship.

And you can't, it irritates me when we see articles

about the legitimacy of a championship.

Like last year, Logano had an average finish right here

of like 17 or something like that, 17th or 17.1,

something along those lines.

And people were up and down saying,

oh, it's not a legitimate championship.

Well, it is because he's playing within the rules

which we are given, right?

And so it's certainly legitimate from that perspective

because everyone else was playing by the same rules.

Yeah, I agree with you there for sure.

I would never say that a NASCAR championship

isn't legitimate because when you are racing

30-something races before the playoffs,

there's like 36 races total to playoffs

or how many races I think 12, right?

So, you know, about 20-something races

before you get to the playoffs, you know,

you are in a grind, you're in a long haul

and it's so difficult to win and get that,

get that, you know, the win that you need to clinch

and very few drivers with more than once or twice a year,

really.

So, especially given the fact that racing

has a lot of luck involved,

you could be one of the best guys in a given race

and get taken out by a crash or a mechanical issue.

So, you know, to me, you used Logano last year's example,

finishing 17th average, and I think that's perfect.

To me, it's a marathon, not a sprint

and it often means getting as many points as you can

during the regular season.

Obviously, stage wins play a part in this too,

which is something relatively new,

although it's getting to be old half by now.

But, you know, if you're a NASCAR driver,

even if you're really good,

even if you're a championship contender,

how many wins are you gonna get in a year?

Three maybe?

So, getting championship points

and having a strong average finish

and putting yourself in position

to be one of the final four guys in Phoenix,

that's not easy and I will never take away

any champion no matter who it is.

I mean, it's not really, I guess that's a long-winded way

of saying it's never a fluke.

No, it's not.

I mean, everyone, you are playing the cards

and you've got the cards you've been dealt

and you're playing the game

that has the same rules for everybody.

So no matter what, and it's the same thing

during Jimmy Johnson's era, right?

When he cracked off all those championships

pretty much right in a row.

That's, they were driving and competing

for the system that was built for them at the time, right?

And I can remember, I have no idea which race it was,

but you know, while he's doing the burnout

and they're playing the radio,

he's like, yeah, maximum points, baby, right?

And so they were going for the maximum points

that were available to them at that time

in the playoff format that was available to them.

And sometimes people, you know,

even the Winston Cup points structure,

the way that was, you know, you look back,

that wasn't perfect either.

I mean, you look back to 1998, you know, Mark Martin,

we often think about, you know, 1990

when Mark Martin got penalized some points

for a bum carburetor,

which was handed to him by NASCAR, right?

I mean, and they got points taken away for that, you know,

as a lost opportunity.

And then 1998, Mark Martin won several races,

one, two, three, four, five, I believe.

I believe he won five races that year,

which was an incredible achievement.

But then Gordon, right, the 24 car

who won that year had one, two, three, four, five,

six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, right?

I mean, like you just, he had such a dominant season.

And in any other season,

Mark Martin would have won that championship going away.

So it's, you know, just the way you deal

with the point scoring systems as it is

and the championship, like I said, legitimate stage points,

whatever they are, I do hope next year that stages,

I don't mind so much having points,

you know, those stage points

just don't throw the caution, right?

I mean, at the end of the season,

get what they're going for with the heat races

and stuff like that,

but they in your local short track,

but that just allows people to move into the main, right?

And so that is not present with this stage format.

If they're going to give out points, that's fine.

I was watching something the other day,

Kenny Schrader was talking about,

and no, it wasn't, maybe it was, yeah, it was Kenny

Schrader who was talking about how he was trying

to run with, I think it was Dale Earnhardt

who was just behind him and he got the halfway,

because back then they used to get some money for halfway

and the prize was $10,000, which was a lot more than time

and they had just had new family and things like that.

Right, so he was talking, so there's always been

these incentives to run up front throughout the race

and this is one of them, right?

So I mean, if they could have the stage points,

but without the caution flag,

I think that would be cool

and add something different to 2026.

We're already hearing that there might be some changes

but nothing has been confirmed,

for the championship structure in 2026,

but I look forward to seeing what those changes,

if they do come to pass, might be.

Yeah, and I would look forward to that too.

I understand where you're coming from.

I don't mind the stage racing as much as it bothers you.

It doesn't bother me as much

but it is a little bit artificial.

You're basically, what they're doing is,

you're taking a race where it may be someone's way

out in front and bunching the cars back up again

to create drama and to create extra chances

for someone back in the pack to get them

on a restart or whatever.

And so I understand that it's kind of artificial

but it also does probably make for a slightly more entertaining

racing than letting someone dominate a race.

So I don't know where we'll go from here

but like you, I'll be keeping an eye on it

and definitely want to make it,

so NASCAR should make it so it's as both as fair

as possible to the drivers

and entertaining as possible to the fans

with also keeping it safe.

There's one problem with stage racing too

is when you bring the cars back together

after the stage caution,

you run the risk of an incident,

especially at the, a lot of the oval tracks

on the restart where,

and that can be, obviously there's the danger

of getting injured in a crash

but also you have the possibility

of taking someone out who's having a good day

and all of a sudden they're caught up in a wreck

and their day is over

and they don't have anything to show for their efforts.

So we'll have to see what the most fair approach

would be but Matthew,

unless you have any other thoughts on Bristol,

we're gonna go ahead and wrap this segment for this week.

No, that's great man.

Thanks for having me on again this week.

Yeah, absolutely.

And we will be talking about New Hampshire

the next time we convene.

So we will go ahead and end this NASCAR segment here

in the Truth About Cars podcast.

Thank you, Matthew.

Thank you, Tim.

That's all for this week's

The Truth About Cars podcast.

I'm Tim Healy, the managing editor

and you can find us wherever you get your podcasts.

You can also find us online at ttac.com

or the truth about cars, allspulledout.com.

We thank Christian Robinson and Matthew Guy

for their time and we thank Matt Potsky for editing.

Most of all, we thank you for listening.

We'll see you next time.

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