Why Verstappen to McLaren isn't as crazy as it sounds
The Late Braking F1 Podcast
Why Verstappen to McLaren isn't as crazy as it soundsThe Late Braking F1 Podcast · Jul 8, 2026
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Person
Charlotte Clair
Charlotte Clair is someone the hosts credit for a great message they read on the show. It’s not a car/tech term—more of a fan shout-out.
Person
Toto Wolfe
Toto Wolff is the top leader (team boss) for Mercedes in Formula 1. The podcast brings him up because the discussion includes what team leadership is saying.
Mercedes is one of the big Formula 1 teams. Here it’s mentioned because the podcast is talking about what the team’s boss is saying.
Person
Fred Versailles
This sounds like the podcast is referring to Ferrari’s team boss. The point is that leadership at Ferrari and Mercedes are both part of the conversation.
The rear wing helps push the car down onto the track so it grips better. If something goes wrong with it, the car can lose stability at high speed and crash.
A high-speed crash is when a car hits the wall at very fast speeds. At those speeds, small problems (like aero or grip) can quickly turn into a loss of control.
Term
Q3
Q3 is the final part of F1 qualifying. The fastest cars go out there to set the best starting positions for the race.
Stowe is a tricky, fast corner at Silverstone. If a driver loses control there, it usually means the car’s grip or balance wasn’t right at that moment.
The “rear-wing specification” is how the rear wing is set up on the race car. It changes how much grip the car gets from the back, which affects how stable it feels in corners.
This part is about a suspected problem with the rear wing and whether the team really solved it. The worry is that even after “fixing” it, the car seems to have the same issue again.
“Rear wing stuck open” means the rear wing can’t move like it should during the race. If it stays in the wrong position, the car can feel unstable and become much harder to drive fast.
Closing speed is how quickly one car approaches another, typically measured as the relative speed difference between them. In racing safety discussions, it matters because very high closing speed increases the likelihood and severity of collisions, which is why the FIA may intervene.
Place
Tabaria
Tabaria is the track area they’re talking about where Verstappen had a heavy impact. In racing, the exact spot on the track matters because safety features like run-off can reduce how bad a crash is.
Spa is a famous Formula 1 race track in Belgium. Because it’s fast and twisty, the space around the track (like runoff areas) matters a lot for safety.
Runoff is the extra space beside the track meant to catch a car if it goes off. It helps slow the car down and can prevent the driver from hitting something dangerous.
Car
Verstappen Red Bull
This is talking about Max Verstappen’s Red Bull Formula 1 car. The discussion is about making sure any new parts the team adds are safe and legal for the drivers.
A safety requirement is a rule that makes sure a car part won’t put the driver in danger. For F1, that includes how parts like wings work if something goes wrong.
A Grand Prix is an individual Formula 1 race weekend’s main race. The speaker is saying drivers should be able to finish the race without getting hurt.
Straight line mode means how the car behaves when it’s going mostly straight. The FIA wants to check that the rear wing acts correctly in that situation too.
Term
rear wings open and close
It’s talking about how the rear wing moves—like how it opens and closes. If it doesn’t do that the right way, it can affect how the car grips the road and could be unsafe.
Wing systems are the wings on an F1 car that push it down onto the track. That extra grip helps the car corner faster, but it can also make the car less slippery through the air.
Side pods are the side “boxes” on an F1 car. They help cool the car and also affect how air flows around it, which can change speed and handling.
Term
inlets on the back of the exhaust
Those inlets are openings near the exhaust that help control how air moves around the back of the car. Changing them can change how well the car sticks to the track and how the rear end behaves.
Ferrari is another major F1 team. The hosts say Ferrari has been very reliable this season, and they’re using that to argue about whether Red Bull should be treated differently.
Barcelona is referenced as the location of a race weekend where Ferrari had one failure. In F1 discussions, “Barcelona” usually points to the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya, a common venue for pre-season testing and races.
Engine supplies means the engines that teams are getting from their engine partner. The hosts are saying Ferrari’s engines have also been working reliably.
That’s a nickname for a special rear wing shape on an F1 car. It’s the kind of design teams experiment with for extra downforce, and the FIA can force changes if it doesn’t comply with the rules.
It’s a specific shaped part around the exhaust area on an F1 car. The goal is to help the airflow and heat around the exhaust behave in a controlled way so the car stays stable and efficient.
“Safety grounds” refers to the justification for restricting or removing a car component because it could be unsafe under real-world conditions. In F1, safety rulings often force teams to revert to older, proven configurations even if the performance impact is small.
In F1, the “power unit” is the whole engine system. It includes the gas engine and the hybrid energy parts that store and reuse energy during the race.
The rear wing is the big spoiler on the back that helps the car grip the road. A “new” rear wing usually means they changed its shape to improve handling and speed.
The exhaust system is where the engine’s gases go after combustion. In racing, its design can affect how well the engine performs and how the car manages heat.
Max Verstappen is one of the best-known F1 drivers. This part of the show is about what happens if he changes teams and how that could affect his results.
A clause is a specific part of a contract that spells out a rule. This one says Verstappen might be able to leave Red Bull early if the conditions are met.
The drivers championship is the main season points battle for individual drivers in Formula 1. Where a driver sits in that standings can affect how teams and negotiations play out.
A contract is the official deal that says which team a driver will race for. The hosts are saying that even if the deal might run longer, the driver could still want out if things aren’t working.
In Formula 1, the paddock is where teams and staff hang out and work during the race weekend. It’s also where a lot of driver rumors and conversations happen.
Norris is a Formula 1 driver connected to McLaren. The hosts are saying McLaren’s people are juggling driver plans while rumors about Verstappen are also in the mix.
Driver lineup just means which drivers a team chooses to race for. The discussion is about whether McLaren is committing to certain drivers or keeping options open because of Verstappen rumors.
Zach Brown is the leader of McLaren’s racing operation. The hosts are saying he’s the kind of person who would actually consider major driver moves, not just small tweaks.
A “reigning world champion” is the person who won the championship most recently. The hosts are saying McLaren has a very strong combination because one driver is the current champion.
Oscar Piastri is an F1 driver. Here, the hosts are saying he’s a top-level championship contender, and that pairing him with Norris is a big deal for McLaren.
The “grid” means the whole group of race cars/drivers competing in an event. Here it’s used to say that driver options exist across many teams, not just one.
A “customer team” in Formula 1 is a team that relies on parts or technical support supplied by another constructor, rather than building everything in-house. This often affects how quickly they can close performance gaps when the leading teams upgrade their cars.
The battery in an F1 car stores energy and helps the car use that energy for extra power. It’s part of the hybrid system, not just a normal car battery.
“In house” means the team is making the important stuff themselves, instead of buying it from someone else. That can help them improve faster and control the design.
Paul Monaghan is a top engineer at Red Bull. The hosts say he’s leaving Red Bull to work with Cadillac, which is a big deal because engineers strongly influence how a race team develops its cars.
They’re talking about Esteban Ocon and whether he can keep his F1 seat. The hosts say his future is uncertain unless his results improve a lot soon.
Person
Io Kamatsu
Io Kamatsu is described as a team principal, meaning a top leader at the team. The hosts say he and Ocon both responded to rumors about whether Ocon will stay.
To outqualify a teammate means to set a faster qualifying lap time and therefore start ahead on the grid. The host uses it to argue that one driver has been performing better in qualifying, even if the gap isn’t huge.
Concept
snap decision
A snap decision is a rushed, immediate change made without waiting for more data. In F1 team management, the host argues against making a quick driver change and instead suggests evaluating later in the season when the car’s direction is clearer.
Gene Haas is the person behind the Haas F1 team. The host is using him to explain how the team might think about driver choices.
Person
Berman
Berman is discussed as a driver whose future is tied to Haas’s planning—specifically whether he might leave for Ferrari and how that affects seat stability. The host treats this as a major variable in Haas’s decision-making.
Person
Hülkenbergs
They’re bringing up Nico Hülkenberg as an example of a seasoned driver. The host’s point is that experienced drivers can still be valuable to a team, not just young prospects.
Valtteri Bottas is cited as an example of a veteran driver profile that can offer development advice. The host uses him to illustrate the idea that there are multiple “types” of drivers teams look for.
Person
Peres
They’re naming another driver as an example of the experienced type. The host groups him with other veterans to show how teams value that experience.
Person
Yuki Sengoda
The host is talking about Yuki Tsunoda as a possible driver option. They’re saying he fits the kind of driver teams look for when they want a mix of youth and development potential.
In F1, “second drivers” are typically the team’s less-favored driver compared to the lead driver. They often face tougher circumstances—like fewer opportunities, less priority in strategy, or more pressure—especially when the team is developing the car or managing results.
Honda is being mentioned as the company behind a racing program. The point is that the driver is tied to Honda’s F1 involvement, and that could make switching teams harder unless an agreement is reached.
Toyota is referenced as a racing partner that has been connected to Haas before. The hosts are using that as a comparison point for how manufacturer deals can affect driver moves.
A reserve driver is the backup in Formula 1. If the main driver can’t race, the reserve driver is ready to step in so the team still has someone who can drive the car.
Person
Jack Dewan
Jack Dewan is being talked about as a backup driver for Haas. The hosts are saying he’s there in case something happens to the main driver, but they’re not convinced he’s proven enough to be a big upgrade.
Alpine is a Formula 1 team. The hosts mention it because they’re talking about where a driver came from and how the team’s car performance affected results.
Person
Flavio
Flavio is mentioned as the person who was involved in how the driver got their Formula 1 chance. The hosts are saying it happened under tough circumstances.
Pierre Gasly is a Formula 1 driver. The hosts are saying he did well even when the car wasn’t competitive, which highlights driver skill versus car quality.
F2 is the series right below F1 where drivers race to earn a chance in F1. Being an F2 champion usually means you were one of the best in that highly competitive league.
FP1 is the first practice session on an F1 weekend. Teams use it to test the car and learn how it behaves before the more important sessions like qualifying and the race.
Rio Hirakawa is a racing driver being talked about as a possible F1 option. The host says he’s done some practice sessions and testing, but he hasn’t had much real F1 race experience yet.
A wild card is an unexpected choice. In this case, it means someone who might be talented but hasn’t proven themselves in F1 races yet, so it’s a gamble.
Formula One is the highest level of open-wheel racing. Here, the point is that a driver might have talent, but they still need real experience racing in F1 itself.
Leo Fornaroli is a promising race driver who won major junior championships. The hosts are talking about him because he’s been linked to McLaren and has also tested with Haas, so he could be a realistic option if a top driver move changes the lineup.
Formula Two is a stepping-stone series right below Formula One. If someone wins it, it usually means they’re one of the best young drivers and F1 teams take notice.
Formula Three is another junior racing ladder step before Formula Two and Formula One. Winning it (especially along with F2) is a sign a driver is performing at a very high level early in their career.
A driver roster just means the list of drivers a team has lined up to race for them. Here, they’re talking about whether a certain young driver would be a good addition if the team needs to replace someone.
The F1 cost cap is a rule that limits how much teams can spend. If one team seems to be improving a lot more than others, people may suspect they’re spending more than they’re allowed.
They’re talking about accusations that Ferrari might be breaking the rules to get an advantage. In modern F1, that often comes down to whether teams follow the spending and technical rules.
Concept
scandalous rumors of 2019
They’re bringing up old controversy from 2019. The argument is whether Ferrari was just improving within the rules or if it was pushing too far, even though the engine was said to be legal.
Term
engine was completely legal
They’re saying the engine was allowed under the rules. In F1, “legal” means it meets the technical regulations, even if people still argue about other parts of the car or development.
This is Toto Wolff, a top official at Mercedes in Formula 1. When he talks about other teams, it can sound like criticism or like praise, depending on the context.
Christian Horner runs Red Bull’s Formula 1 team. The conversation is using him as a reference point for leadership style and how teams talk about each other.
Fred Vasseur is a top leader at Ferrari. The point here is that he’s portrayed as someone who wants the team to concentrate on their own work instead of arguing about what other teams are doing.
The summer break is the mid-season pause in F1. Teams use it as a checkpoint to decide whether to keep developing for this year or focus on next year if they’re falling behind.
LIVE
Thank you for listening to the
Wednesday episode. No F1 this weekend, Sam, the first time. First time in a couple of weekends,
that's the case. But you know what? Ferrari are winning. The sun is shining. Life is great.
What alternate dimension have I woken up in where those things are true?
Yeah, boy, the sun is shining. Ferrari are winning and life is good. Those are the three things.
Well, sure, that's ever happened before since I've been around, but technically, yes, it's true.
Amazingly so. We've had a very interesting first few grand paris since that wig spring break,
and now we've got a little bit of time to sit back and digest what's been going on.
We're recovering after what was a taxing weekend for us, some late nights for some of the members
of the teams, a trip to Silverstone. But you know what they say? About tough times.
What do they say about tough times, mate? They specifically say...
Thank you, Charlotte Clair, for the best radio message, maybe of all time.
I feel like that. I don't know when that will be used, but it's just they're locked and loaded
on the soundboard for any moment that you need to go... I've just started using it in my day-to-day
life. When things go well, we overcome something. I just make that noise now.
Yeah, yeah. I hear it from you plenty. But we've got a very interesting episode coming up today.
I don't mean to oversell this. We have the greatest game in the history of late breaking
coming up later on, and I'm very much banking on you having forgotten. I've said that by the
time we get there. We've got some bit of needle going on, maybe between Toto Wolfe,
team principal, of course, at Mercedes, and team principal at Ferrari Fred Versailles.
Some comments maybe on Esteban Ocon's future in the sport.
For every term. But we're going to start today with Max Verstappen, who has expressed his anger
after a rear-wing issue caused another high-speed crash for the second consecutive weekend at this
weekend's British GP. An apparent problem with the rear-wing sent Verstappen into the barriers
during Q3 at the Red Bull Ring last weekend, and then a similar failure, although not quite the
struck again at the British GP with Verstappen losing control through Stowe. This time, however,
his Red Bull came to rest in the gravel rather than hitting the barriers. Verstappen made his
frustration clear over Team Radio saying naughty word this car before angrily throwing his steering
wheel from the cockpit after climbing out. Speaking after the race, Verstappen said the
incident was like Austria, but different fault that's ended up in the same outcome.
Team Principal Laura Meckies admitted Verstappen was right to be unhappy and said Red Bull has
not ruled out returning to the rear-wing specification it used at the start of the season.
Do you think Verstappen has a right to be angry with how this is going?
Yeah, 100%. He has every right to be annoying. And just a little tidbit for you here, folks.
Everything you hear about Max Verstappen on this podcast comes from a place of genuine
facts, and we won't be ruminating on anything else going on.
Yes, fact and love. That's how we speak about Verstappen and nothing else.
Hashtag, fact and love. Yeah, he has every right to be furious about this.
He was driving a really brilliant British Grand Prix, and at least with the Austrian
Grand Prix, it happened in qualifying. And look, he made up the places pretty quick.
And whilst he may have gone to get a victory there, at least he finished the Grand Prix,
and in a very positive position, picked up that podium, just like brilliant pace.
Okay, sure. Like I mentioned, in another world, maybe he wings it. But at least he finishes.
Here at Silverstone, you'd think, right, the team have evaluated the problem.
They've come to understand it. And from what Lauren Meckys has said,
they did evaluate the problem. They did come to understand it. And supposedly, they fixed it.
So to end up at exactly the same point again, but with a whole different methodology,
whole different issue, causing the same problem, essentially,
that must be so, so annoying. So finally go, cool, we fixed that. You know, you haven't.
Psyche. Psyche. Your rear wing stuck open again. This is also really worrying, from a red ball
point of view, that they've got a really dangerous issue in the car that has been provoked by two
separate problems across two separate weekends. And there have been comments from Meckys saying
that they might have to park it for spies, you mentioned. But equally, the FIA might be
investigating the Macarena rear wing for safety concerns now.
Well, it's interesting. We had this on the docket anyway to discuss today,
and then about an hour before we've hit record, the FIA apparently looking into
this and not just from a red ball perspective, but more from a wider context, because of course,
Ferrari also running a very similar rear wing. I agree with you. He 100% has a right to be
angry about this. And I know safety might have come a long way in F1. It definitely has over
the past few decades, but F1 remains an inherently dangerous sport. And we've had it already this
year. And I know it's not exactly the same situation, but where we've had Colopinto and
Bearman very nearly have a high speed crash, the FIA actually intervened on that one that was
related to closing speed. So not again, not the same situation. But yeah, we are still seeing
that safety remains paramount in this sport. And whilst at the moment, it seems like this issue
might well be isolated to, I was going to say one team, but really one driver.
It's only impacted Verstappen at the moment. And I think we're just fortunate right now,
both Red Bull Verstappen and everyone that this hasn't resulted in anything worse to either car
or more importantly, to driver. It is very obvious to say, but I'm going to say it anyway,
a car losing control at its top speed isn't ideal. It's fortunate.
Words at Max Verstappen.
Yes, pretty much. And he'd probably say it in that way as well. It's fortunate that
Austria didn't result in more because that was a fairly hefty impact in Tabaria.
He hefty is the word I would use.
And fortunate that Stowe obviously that the runoff is, there's a lot there. So he slowed down
before he even got there. Not all runoffs are made equally. And we don't know whether,
and I know all of the circuits have to pass safety inspections before they even make it
onto the calendar. But you look at the chemistry straight where we're going next time at Spa.
Who's to say that the runoff there isn't quite as big as what we got at Stowe? Maybe if that
happened again, there would be a more dangerous incident. So yeah, I think this is a safety
concern right now for the team. And Verstappen has every right to be annoyed about it.
Speaking of the sport, maybe getting involved, the FIA looking into this, what are your thoughts
on that? This I was a little bit more skeptical about. Whilst I think Verstappen Red Bull have
every right to be concerned. And they should internally be discussing this and making sure
that if they're bringing an update to a car, which this was a big part of their car upgrade system
a few races ago, you'll remember how almost Jaws mouth size, the rear wing suddenly appeared on
the back of that Red Bull, you have to at first, foremost, make sure it fits a safety requirement
for your drivers. I'd rather you be a second slower and make sure that these drivers are able
to actually get around the racetrack and finish a Grand Prix ideally without putting themselves
at risk. Verstappen's come out and said that this has happened twice. Eventually, I'm going to get
hurt. And yeah, he's right. If the odds fall down to it, you're crushing enough times at a speed
like that. Eventually, it's going to hurt. It's not a pleasant experience anyway. So
they need to make sure they fix this. The FIA getting involved, I was quite curious that this
was so encompassing. I was really surprised that this was picking up the likes of Ferrari in their
investigation as well. That car's not having a single issue with its rear wing. And I do think
it might be slightly unfair that Ferrari been drafting in on the basis that, okay, technically
it closes in the same way, bringing all teams then, because you need to investigate straight
line mode to make sure that all rear wings open and close in a certain way. And I'm really worried
that an investigation like this, which currently is affecting one team, one driver,
might end up damaging innovation. And it might ruin a little bit of the spark that we've got
with these new regulations. One of the few proper positives is that we're seeing innovation team to
team. We're seeing different side pods, different wing systems, the floors look different. There's
a lot going on here. Those little inlets on the back of the exhaust, it's now being removed.
You can risk changing a lot here. And that will damage the way that we think about
technology in this sport. I would like them just to look at Red Bull first.
Ferrari haven't had a problem. And I think until Ferrari do have a problem, I'm not sure why they
are the only other team properly involved. Yeah, for the team itself, for Red Bull, it's definitely
a concern for them in that innovation can't come at the expense of safety. It can't supersede
safety. No, absolutely not. And again, it's pretty worrying that we've had the same outcome,
but for two completely seemingly different reasons. But also from a sporting perspective,
they can't afford it either. I think you could argue the case over the last two Grand Prix weekends,
those two issues might have cost the team 22 points. I think it cost them 15 at Silverstone,
in that I think I don't think he'd have caught Hamilton, but he was still on course for a third
place finish was Max Verstappen. And again, people might disagree. I think if he qualifies a position
or two higher in the Austrian GP, I think he might go on to win it, in which case maybe they've lost
seven there as well. So from a sporting perspective, they can't afford it. I do agree with you,
though, in terms of the sport more generally, I'm not sure what the FIA are looking to do here.
But Ferrari can definitely turn around at the moment and say, we have done over 2000 racing
laps so far this year and countless more practice laps and qualifying laps. And despite all of that,
we have not had any issues. Why should we be punished for this just because Red Bull,
who have copied this design, cannot get it right? And they would have a case for that,
but we'll have to see what the FIA do there. It's like the naughty kids spoiling it for
the rest of us just because they've done something wrong, isn't it? Now, I can think
that's a big unfair. Ferrari's reliability has been stupendously good this season. They have
got one failure in Barcelona. Yeah, yeah. For a new regulation, it's been very good.
Both, and their engine supplies have also been pretty great as well. You know,
Haas barely had an engine problem. The same as Cadillac, all the issues they have actually had,
most of them not related to the engine itself. So I think we need to cut Ferrari a bit of slack here.
They've already had the exhaust inlet band, and now they're possibly going to have the Macarena
wing, which was their invention first, removed as well, and they've done nothing wrong. So
a bit disappointed. Hopefully that doesn't come to it. Now, Red Bull maybe have something of a
decision regardless of what the FIA decide here is to whether they should move back to
this old rear wing or not and essentially abandon what they've done. I think it's a really tough
spot for the team here because they're in a position right now where they need to prove
to Max Verstappen that he should stay with them long term, depending on how much you're listening
to other rumours elsewhere. But still, this is an ongoing conversation for, I was going to say,
months, probably years at this point. It's not a great look to back away from that. Remember,
Red Bull really since Verstappen joined the team 10 years ago have been at the forefront of innovation
when it comes to car design. They've often been the ones leading the way in terms of bringing
something new and others have sort of copied them. This isn't a great look that, first of all,
this design that they've got right now is a copy of what Ferrari did. And then if they were to
walk away from that on safety grounds, I don't know what message that sends Verstappen. I don't
think it would even cost them that much in terms of performance. Like we've seen loads of other
teams not run this wing and be fine. I think it's more about what that looks like to Verstappen
that's the issue. It's a real downfall from everything that made Red Bull, seemingly Red Bull,
right? They always were able to come up and again, this is mostly new focus. So that is a real
issue for them. But Red Bull were very much an innovative team that had to think outside the
box because for the most part, the engine that they had in the back of the car wasn't good enough
to compete with Mercedes in their heyday, right? The last decade for, and slightly more for Red
Bull, maybe a step behind because the power of the car has not been good enough. Now it's the flip
absolute flip back. Yeah. Right. Yes, folks, I had to observe. Well done. We're a family show.
But they now have a great ICE. Ford have done a brilliant job in producing a great power unit.
And the battery is not too shabby either. It's clearly not amazing because the likes of Mercedes
and McLaren running that Mercedes overall power unit are able to produce more, but the package
initially very good. The bit that's letting them down now is the aero side of the car, the chassis
build, the innovative rear wing that we saw from them. Again, as you mentioned, it's not theirs,
it's Ferrari's. The same with the exhaust system that I've just mentioned. They fitted one. It's
now been removed, but that was Ferrari's. Ferrari are doing a great job of bringing new little ways
to gain extra time. And we've spoken time and time again about the fact that that chassis is good.
They're just down on power. But Red Bull are about to lose anything extra they've gained
aerodynamically, potentially. And now their battery can't compete. So it's fascinating to see that
for Max Verstappen, he's going in a team that's had to think outside the box and build a car
that almost in theory should be incredible if the power unit is all right in the car.
Now it's not really got much of either. Mercedes, Ferrari, Audi, they're all going to be getting
a duo points to upgrade. And we're seeing that Ferrari has really started to administer those.
And we know that Mercedes have got such an advantage that Toto Wolf has gone,
I'm going to wait till next year to bring the first one in because I can. And Max hasn't got
anything, no new toys to play with, no cool rear wing that goes flippy flip,
no engine power to get him up the straight properly. He's just down in the dump. So he
must be so frustrating in that Red Bull camp to go. Not only am I not getting any fun toys to play with,
if you listen to the rumours as you mentioned, he's even being listened to when it comes to
things like setup. So it must be dreadful for him after doing so well only a couple of years previous.
Speaking of Max Verstappen and his potential future in the sport, Verstappen's management has
engaged in preliminary talks with McLaren racing CEO Zach Brown about a potential deal with Brown
taking the meeting after being approached. Verstappen again has a contract with Red Bull running
until 2028. But the contract also contains a clause that allows him to exit the team
if he's not inside the top two in the drivers championship at some unspecified point next month.
What are your thoughts on that? Is there any chance this actually comes together?
Yeah, I'm starting to think it might do. I'm starting to think something is going to shift.
And again, we're discussing potentials here. There's nothing certain going on, but you can hear
just how frustrated Max Verstappen has become. And we know that team Verstappen in the Red Bull camp
are a strong force and they rightfully have very high ground to stand on and logger cards in their
hand. Verstappen brought them a lot of success. Even when the car wasn't particularly great,
he was able to really put a challenge to the likes of McLaren previously. So the fact that he's
now being left seemingly in the dark, he's not a key part of conversations. Even though the contract
potentially extends further, he's not able to actually get what he needs out of his car. I
completely understand why he might either be looking to leave or might be looking at other options.
And despite the rumours of maybe Toto Wolfe doesn't want Max, that's another crap. Despite the rumours
of maybe Max Verstappen might swap out with Oscar Piascri, and they're all rumours, just to make that
very clear, I can see why they're rumours. I can see why it's being discussed because he's got
every single right to want to look for a different option, whether it's better or not. It's another
question, but a different option, I think it's very fair. I think firstly, these conversations,
they're not unusual. These chats do happen up and down the paddock, and some of them have maybe
given a bit more airtime than others because it's Max Verstappen understandably against
people's attention a little bit more. I've seen a lot of, I'll say, criticism towards
Zach Brown for taking this meeting about how you line up to Norris and Piascri. Why aren't you
committed to them? You're looking at them over here, but you've got one eye on Verstappen over
here. It's not fair. Folks, Zach Brown's doing his job, and if he wasn't taking this meeting,
he wouldn't be doing his job. So I've got no problem with him taking the meeting or,
indeed, Verstappen's management team asking for it. I don't think it's crazy if this comes together
in all honesty, but it would be a really tricky spot for Zach Brown if Verstappen was potentially
interested in this move. Now, we know Zach Brown's not against bigger moves in terms of his driver
lineup. You only have to look at what's happened this week in terms of their IndyCar lineup,
but Norris and Piascri is a really great combination. You've got a world champion,
the reigning world champion, and a driver that led that world championship for the most races in
Oscar Piascri. Team principals, and I don't think people sometimes fully grasp this,
team principals dream of that situation, and so many of them will never get it. And Zach Brown
has it right now. He's got two drivers that I believe are capable of winning a world title.
We could replay last year, and Piascri could have won that title very easily.
Red Bull especially had that for at least for a very long time. They've not had two drivers
capable of doing that. Which means if you want to break that up, you need a very, very good reason
to do so. Max Verstappen might be a very good reason. You've also got things like GP, of course,
is going to be making the switch very soon. It makes sense that he's got a bit of an ally there
that can look after him, help him bed in. There's every chance that this does go ahead equally
to defend the likes of McLaren. I bet he's not the only team that have taken a conversation with
Max Verstappen. I'm sure there are phone calls floating around. I'm sure there are emails going
left, right, and centre. Because if Aston Martin start rapid development, I know it's a little
far-fetched right now, but it's possible. Hungry update is loading. It's brewing.
Like stroke podium. Aldi might suddenly jump forward with the Adria process. Ferrari might
fall out with someone. Sorry, it's not going to happen, but Mercedes also might go,
actually, George Russell, you're not cutting the mustard. We're going to have someone else's dead.
There are options up and down the grid. I would be very shocked if it's only McLaren having conversations.
True. I would agree with that. I don't know if you'd agree with this. I think Zach Brown would
only consider right now two drivers to replace either Piastri or Norris and Verstappen and
Antonelli. I don't think he's even thinking about anyone else.
Yeah, I actually completely agree with that. I think Russell is either equal or below both of
the drivers he's got currently. I think he turns down Russell and he turns down Leclerc.
And I think he turns down Leclerc as well. And that's not a bad comment towards either of those
two drivers. But why make a switch when the quality is not so superior? What do you gain?
So I think you only do it for potentially either of those two drivers. And I still
think you have to think about it. Because, again, the way in which they're both in their prime,
Norris and Piastri, they both work together quite well. They clearly get along all right.
Yeah, there were so many points last year it could have broken down and it didn't.
They're both very professional. They clearly don't have a go at each other properly.
Yeah, I don't know what you're switching out for.
If I was Red Bull, I would be really concerned right now by this. And again, that sounds really
obvious to say in that when your star driver is thinking maybe of leaving, you should be
concerned about that. I think what's more concerning is who it's referring to, and that
being McLaren. Because with the greatest respect to McLaren, and I do genuinely mean that with the
success that they've had recently and the recovery they've had in the last 10 years,
they are a customer team and they're not winning right now. Like if Mercedes were interested and
they might still be. But if all of these conversations were about Toto Wolff and Max Verstappen
Red Bull could sit there and say, well, that makes sense. That team's winning.
They've got the best overall package of chassis and battery and power unit.
That makes a lot of sense why he's looking at that short term success elsewhere.
McLaren aren't winning. They're ahead of Red Bull in the championship, but not by much.
I mean, Max Verstappen is more commonly than got beating the McLarens in the race. He's finishing,
of course, and he hasn't finished a lot of races this season either. The reliability has stripped
back. You are right in the sense that if he is to make the jump, surely it's for a project that's
entirely in house and cell phone. That's why I think they should be concerned, because it makes
you think he doesn't have trust in Red Bull long term. He's not doing this in terms of, I'm not
winning right now. Let's go to a place that is winning. I am just really surprised that he would
consider McLaren as a top option, if I'm honest, from Verstappen's point of view. If you look at
their record in the last 25 seasons in Formula One, they've won three times. It's not brilliant,
and I don't know why you realistically take that risk to go to McLaren as you mentioned as a customer
team and not just push yourself into the parent team Mercedes. The option's surely there if you
called up Toyota Wolf. Also, apologies to Mr Paul Monaghan, though I'm sure was hoping he'd get a
full segment today, but he's been at Red Bull for over 20 years. Chief engineer for car engineering,
he's leaving for Cadillac. It's another name who's been there for so long.
Again, the option of Cadillac, again, it's a great project. It is a real long-term build. In theory,
yes, he's got proper growth in his career when he's there, but it's not like he was low down the
order at Red Bull either. He was doing pretty well there, so I am quite surprised that we're seeing
another person make the switch. I'm very keen to learn what you think on this one at home.
Firstly, do you think that this could happen, Max Verstappen to McLaren, and then for those of you
maybe who are supporters of Verstappen, would you want to see it happen? Are you done with the way
in which that Red Bull Verstappen situation is going on right now? Do you think that McLaren
might be a better avenue for him? Very interested to learn from you on that.
Let's take a quick break. On the other side, it's the goat.
Welcome back, everyone. I'll be honest, I didn't want to chat about this, but
Sam's like, we need to chat about Esteban Ocon and the fact that he's struggling right now, and I'm
like, no, he's not struggling. It's a real-time conversation that just happened. I promise that
this is a real conversation. Esteban Ocon's future remains a major talking point in the F1
paddock with the race suggesting that only a dramatic upturn in Ocon's performances will give
him any hope of staying at the team in 2027. Now, Ocon and team principal Io Kamatsu have both
addressed speculation surrounding his future after the Miami Grand Prix, which again feels like two
years ago at this point, but a run of underwhelming performances has done little to ease the uncertainty
around his position with the team. Before we look at whether we think he will stay and if he doesn't,
who might be in the picture to replace him, are these struggles as bad as it looks? And if so,
why is it happening? I mean, we've spoken about how some drivers just aren't great with a certain
change in car style, right? Charlotte Clarence wants to take into the conversation here, and
actually, obviously, he's just kind of rebuffed along those complaints by taking the victory at
Silverstone. It's a great answer. answer, but that was by far his best performance
all season, that race at Silverstone. He really did get a number on Lewis Hamilton. He was class of
the field alongside Anthony. Esmeralda Ocon isn't doing one of those things. He's not answering
some cries here that are coming out, but I will come to Ocon's defence for a moment.
Berman has been the class of that team. He has been the better driver. I'm not going out like
that's not true. He has regularly outqualified Ocon, although not drastically. He has outscored Ocon
as well. But on that front, why does it matter right now? With how bad the car is.
Yeah, that's my question. If the cars are improving, they're not putting themselves in
points-paying positions on a regular basis. They're falling further and further away from
Alpine, racing balls even. How do you look like they've solidified themselves as a comfortably
better team now? With Ocon struggling, why are we not allowing some time for the car to improve
and embed it into a better situation overall in the season before we make drastic changes?
Because you're losing not just a driver in this thing. You're losing a lot of things.
You're losing a lot of experience that comes with the car, a lot of possible feedback options.
You're losing someone that actually seems to feel very comfortable with the culture
of the team and is providing a positiveness to that situation. Whilst I understand that he has
not been good enough, this isn't one of those teams that I think you need to make a snap decision
and get a driver out at the first time of asking, I think you can leave this to the end of the
year. I think you can evaluate it come October, November time. I'm not sure we need to make a
call at the summer break, for example. That car isn't good enough anyway. It's not winging anything
anyway. You might lose a point or two across a few races. Do you know one thing that is typically
quite bad for podcasting? What's that mean? Mumbling. But I don't think I can say this
next sentence with my full chest. Oh, girl, we'll have to pump you up in the edit.
This is pretty bad. I think it is as bad as it looks. It's not good. And the problem is,
with 2025, I think there was a lot of discourse last year about whether Ocon is getting it done
versus Bearman. And I was kind of defending that. I don't think it's as bad as it looks.
I think it was fairly, I think they were fairly well matched last year.
Apart from those last few Grand Prix, Bearman suddenly set up. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. This year, though, it's pretty one-sided at the moment. And it doesn't fill me with great
optimism about Ocon's future. I will say in terms of points, because that's very one-sided at the
moment. Bearman is 18-3 up. I'm not really looking at that too much because, again, what you said
about the car, I think is true. But also, Bearman was 17-0 up after two races, because that car
started the season very well. It just means that if you performed well at those two Grand Prix,
you were always going to be ahead in this sort of matchup. We could have had it where Ocon was
great for the first two races, and Bearman's been brilliant since. And Ocon would be ahead
in the points tally. So I'm not actually looking at points too much here. What I think is more
useful is the head-to-head, and it's not a pretty picture. It's what kind of reading for Ocon fans?
Not so much. It is tough to pick out a race so far this year, where Ocon has beaten Bearman,
and you can just say at the end of it, Ocon was faster today. He has beaten him on a few occasions.
A lot of those have come as a result of retirements or something going wrong on the car. The only one
I can really point to where I thought Ocon was just the better driver across the weekend was
Suzuka. Now again, as we referred to in the first segment, that ended for Bearman in the wall after
nearly colliding with, well, based on the Colopinto incident. But Ocon was going to beat him anyway,
like he was the quicker driver that weekend. That's one out of how many? Nine now?
Yeah, one in nine has got great odds. Qualifying head-to-head, including sprints, is 10-3
in the favour of Bearman. Ocon has been knocked out in Q1 in four of the last five qualifying
sessions. I think those head-to-hegs are really telling numbers. The thing that I've really
started to notice between them, especially in qualifying, is not that Bearman is qualifying
sixth and just making it through to Q2. Ocon is P17. He's been so unlucky. The gap is regularly
several tenths between them, and Bearman is comfortably through to Q2. Ocon doesn't seem
to have a sniff of getting into that second section of qualifying. That's worrying,
because if the car is that bad, that Bearman is able to sneak through by half a tenth or
a couple of hundredths of a second. If you go, someone's got to do it. It just happens to edge
that way. He's so far off the pace that he's a little bit unnerving, but I do wonder if this
is where the car is going. If we bring some upgrades, Ocon's form, which has never been bad,
he's a good driver, will start to come back around for him.
Yeah, it honestly really confuses me as to why he's in this position right now. If anyone's
got an answer out there, please do let me know, because whilst Ocon has never really
outshone teammates, he's also kept up with pretty much all of them. If you think about
early in his career versus Sergio Perez at Force India, barely anything between them at that time.
Ocon, I think, was the better qualifier of the two. Perez, a marginally better racer.
He was, of course, then teammates with Fernando Alonso at El Pino, Renault becoming El Pino.
Again, very similar stats. Couldn't really separate them. Yeah. And then against Gasly as well.
Whilst that didn't end very well for Ocon, there again wasn't much between them in terms of the
statistics. Yeah. And again, it's not like he's coming out here and absolutely demolishing
teammates, but he's always shown that he can hang with these very good names. And right now,
it's just maybe Berman is the go. That's the only answer I've got right now.
I mean, it's understandable explanation that you've reached there. What's next then?
Well, is there still a chance for him? I think that's the question.
I think, like I just mentioned, I think, I don't think Haas will jump to a decision here. I don't
think it'll be, you know, you're out by Hungary, for example. No. They're sensible and Kamatsu is
a solid head. You know, he's a clever bloke. I don't think he's the kind of person to act
in a rash manner. But I am sure that he is probably starting to ask questions of
what's available. How does it look as I'm sure is a certain gene Haas to go, what do we do in
that second seed? Berman is going to be here for at least another year. We know this with the way
that Ferrari aligned up. What's going to be the plan? Do we keep Ocon? Let's wait and see. But
let's line something up and bang, what are the options that Haas might have?
Well, I was just going to say very quickly on Ocon and whether I think he can survive before just
we'll get to those names, obviously, that could come in. I think maybe the issue for Ocon right
now is you almost need to be in one of three stages as an F1 driver. Like you even need to be this
up-and-coming driver with potential, Berman. You even need to be in your prime, or you need to be
a really experienced driver who can offer sort of development advice.
You're magnificent. You're Hülkenbergs, these people.
Bottas and Peres are great examples of that Cadillac. Ocon's kind of in this, he's not there
yet. He's definitely not up and coming. He should be at 29 years old. He should be in his prime,
like me. Not for long, Belle. No, no, maybe 30 will be more prime. But yeah, he's not there either.
He's the second driver when it should be his prime year. So I think that's why
there's still hope for him. But that hope is maybe dwindling, again, also related to the
Berman news. Because when it was maybe thought that Berman had a chance at going to Ferrari,
the stability of having Ocon in the other seat was probably quite tempting for Haas.
They might have more of a reason to take a risk now on some of these names up coming.
Yeah, there are a few that are in the mix. And I'm going to start with one that feels like the
more cemented, experienced driver in the mix. As you just mentioned, pretty fits one of the
briefs that you spoke about. A driver that, in theory, is in their prime. And that is Yuki
Sengoda. Now, Sengoda, of course, out of a drive after being booted from the Red Bull seat at the
end of the last era of Formula One, I don't think that Haas will go for Yuki Sengoda, even though
the rumours are suggesting it's possible. Is that driver related, or I know there's this whole
Honda and Toyota discussion as well? I don't think it's that. I don't think it's Toyota Honda.
I'm sure that Toyota, who are becoming more and more involved, of course, with Haas,
would happily have a succeeding and thriving Japanese driver in their car. And I'm sure Honda
wouldn't be too disappointed to sit there and go that there's no route for our driver to go
somewhere else. We can have a negotiation. We can have a conversation. I don't think that's the
problem. I do think that, unfortunately, you look at what Sengoda actually has achieved throughout
his career in Formula One. Liam Lawson has already scored more points in the racing ball than Yuki
Sengoda has ever scored across the whole season. You know, 33 points is Yuki Sengoda's highest
point scoring season. Lawson is already on 39. We're only nine races into a year as well.
The stats are starting to go against Yuki Sengoda. Could it be the drivers that he was alongside
when he was at the likes of Alfa Tauri, of course? And then disaster over Sengoda Red Bull. And we
know that the second drivers had it rough. And they did have it rough. He was dealt a tough hand,
but it was really poor, especially up against the likes of Peretz, who we gave some criticism to,
but this was worse. So I don't think that it's worth the buyout clause, the salary change, the
adjustment, the risk of losing out on a young potential rookie driver that's another option
to bring in someone like Sengoda, because he also doesn't deliver on the experience of feedback
front that you just spoke about. He's on that part of that. And the Red Bull were like,
that this guy is the king of feedback. I'm not sure. After what we've seen.
Unconvinced.
Yeah, I'm not sold. So unfortunately, whilst I think Sengoda is genuinely a prime candidate,
I don't think they're going to go that way. I'm with you. I don't see it. And whilst he is very
much in the mix, I'm trying to try to picture him ahead and I'm not quite getting there with it,
because Sengoda's fine. Why go for fine? Why go out fine when you've already got it?
Yeah, you would. I don't want to say it's a like for like replacement because they are
very different drivers, Ocon and Sengoda. But equally, I don't see the benefit of bringing
him in alongside them. And I think you've got other options that could be more appealing.
Sengoda has had numerous years to show what he can do in F1. And to be clear, I'm not saying
Sengoda is by any stretch a poor driver. He's very solid. But I think at this point, we know he's
not great in which case I'm not sure. And again, I'm not sure how the Honda and Toyota thing would
play out to remind people, of course, Toyota associated with Haas. Sengoda very much still
linked to Honda competing Japanese manufacturers. There would need to be some sort of deal or
Sengoda to leave the Honda project in order for this to happen, which I think for the sake of an
F1 seat, you probably would. So that is a block of that. I think that they could overcome if they
wanted to. I'm just not convinced Haas will. It's not worth the effort, I don't think.
What about their current reserve driver, Jack Dewan?
Yeah, this, I think, was almost a bit of a safety pickup from Haas. Well, he became a free agent
when he was out on the market after swiftly leaving the Alpine team. It's a relatively, and I say this
kindly to do it, I think, a relatively safe pair of hands to have in backup should Ocon fall ill.
Or, you know, like the COVID-19. Someone who has relevant F1, well, I say relevant,
I know we're in a different area. He could drive a Formula 1 car of the last couple of years,
and let's face it, in theory, he could finish a Grand Prix. I don't think he could do anything
more than that right now, unfortunately. And again, why would I bother to recruit a known
quantity that already let the side down than another team? Can we say he's a known quantity?
Did he have enough time to show? No, I've been going, yeah, that's for it.
He's known enough, I think, for a team like Haas to not bother with the risk. I agree that he
barely got a glimpse. And he also got introduced to Formula 1 in the worst way possible. That last
Flavio. Yeah, by Flavio, the last race of, you know, the season, an Alpine team that was really
poor, driving a terrible car against a guy that thrived in a terrible car, Pierre Gasly. So they
only get, what, four Grand Prix the next season? Is it five maybe? Yeah, before being, again, booted
out for a highly favoured Colour Pinto. It's tricky to evaluate him properly, but I do think
there's enough info in there to know. He's serving his job as a reserve driver, and I think he's
doing that well. So again, I don't know why you would remove Ocon to replace with Dylan.
It's happened before. I had a different team, but I also don't, I don't see it either.
I, again, I know Jack Dorn didn't have a lot of opportunity to show what he can do.
I think if he had had like an outstanding junior career, it would have been worth a
second attempt. He didn't have that. He had a very good junior career, as most drivers do,
that make it to F1. But it wasn't outstanding enough that I think it's, that there are F2
champions that have never had an opportunity in the sport. So I'm not like clamouring for
doing needs a second chance. So I tend to think it might not be him either.
A bit of a wild card one here, which is Rio Hirakawa. Now he's done seven FP1 outings,
some of them for the house, but also for other teams as well. A lot of testing of previous
cars experience as well. And he has that Toyota link. He's 32 years old. So he would be certainly
in modern F1, one of the oldest rookies we've had. And honestly, as someone under 32,
I want him to be the pick. Yeah, technically, I, again, will be younger than a new driver. So
I'm taking it. Congrats, Rio. You're in. We make the call. I love this as a wild card.
I genuinely think this is fascinating. It's a lot of fun. And he's a very talented driver,
you know, but again, he's got the age on his side for experience. The issue is,
he hasn't really got any experience when it comes to Formula One driving. So you're really
taking a risk on losing out on having the two drivers in theory, right? You've got Driver A,
32, no Formula One experience on a few test sessions. Don't know how they're going to perform.
Or you've got Driver B, who's 19, 20, 21, no real F1 experience. We don't know how they're
going to perform. In theory, you could get 20 years out of Driver B. You might only get
five. And you don't know how good they're going to be on either side. So it just feels like,
again, it's not a risk worth taking for quite a seemingly low overall payoff in the situation.
So I don't think they're going to go for this option. I think that leaves us with two options.
And for me, they're the top two options. Whether Haas see it the same way, don't know.
One of them is Leo Fornaroli, who won the Formula Two championship last year. Now,
he's associated with McLaren, but very recently did a session with Haas in a previous car,
as well as doing an FP1 for McLaren recently as well. I don't love the idea of them having to
hire him in. It's a very similar situation to what Bortoletto was in, that Bortoletto was
associated with McLaren, won the F2 championship with the same team that Fornaroli won the F2
championship, but Audi got him outright. I'm not sure Haas have the pull to be able to do that here,
but I think he might be the favourite for this. Yeah, and I get why. Like you mentioned, F2 champion,
he also won the F3 championship, of course. He's one of a few that's managed to do that,
essentially, pretty rapid fire, very talented young driver. I'm right in thinking that he obviously
won the F2 title originally with no backing from a Formula One team. Yeah, correct. Yeah.
Picked up post championship by McLaren, very sensible pickup to have. Again, if, let's say,
Piastri walks off and Maxwell Sapa is interested, this isn't a bad person to have in your roster
to want to bring them in. He's a very, very talented junster, but again, very minimal Formula
One experience. But this is the kind of profile I was talking about when you have Driver B, who
is only between 19 to 21, 22 years old, could have a really high ceiling and just deserves a chance,
deserves a big of a go. This is the kind of person that you place all your eggs in one basket and
go, right, sorry, Ocon, you're not cutting the mustard. What's the worst we get with a rookie?
The same? All right, well, at least they've got five years to develop and they might be a superstar,
so we give it a go. I just think that the hold back here, as you mentioned, is whether McLaren
would be willing to settle almost a low end cut deal to get him out of his contract. I'm sure
it would cost him absolutely fortune, but we already know that the Haas team are spending
up to the cost cap. We already know they don't have endless bags of cash like some teams do.
This could put a dent in their costs that they maybe can't genuinely afford and
it'll be a shame because it'd be great for him to have the opportunity, but that might be the
genuine sticking point. Yeah, quite possibly. The other one, I think in contention, the last
name is Rafa Kamara, who is in F2 at the moment. He's kind of following that same trajectory of
Bortoletto and for Neroli, but at the moment, at least, whilst those two won the title, Kamara
is third in F2. So same team, again, as both of those two drivers mentioned. I feel like
he could get to F1 next year. It also wouldn't shock me if they left him there for one more year.
Again, if he doesn't win the title and it's looking increasingly likely that he won't
win the title, Solov's having an absolute belter recently.
Why didn't it please Ben? Sorry. Yeah, you know, he won the F3 title, right? So he's the reigning
F3 champion right now. He's sixth, third in F2. He's part of the Ferrari Driver Academy,
which actually, I think, is a nod in his favour because Bearman is exactly that right now.
The negative, actually, I suppose, from a half-point of view is, do they want two drivers
from the Ferrari Driver Academy to sat there racing for them? Because in a fantasy world
where Lewis Hamilton retires and Charlotte Clarion eventually breaks his heart and leads Ferrari,
so they both go? At least you know there's a good chance that both of them aren't going in the same
year. Exactly. If you had one from Ferrari and one from McLaren, there is a chance that they could
both be called up at the same time. Exactly. More unlikely. In a theory, you can make a
calculated risk that actually one of these two in the next few years will be dropped from their
Ferrari Academy duties. Most likely, it's not going to be Bearman with what he's shown and proven.
So, in theory, it's going to be Cameron, who is going to possibly be removed from that and then
Haas could essentially have the ownership of that contract. But it is a risk, calculated,
but a risk. But it feels like a sensible option, but they will possibly need to find an in-between
if they don't pick him up over the next 12 months or so. Yes. Very interesting discussion as the
summer break looms. We'll take a quick break on the other side. We've got Hungbergs between
them.
Welcome back, everyone. Let's move on to Ferrari team boss Fred Versa, who has hit back at Toto
Wolfe after the Mercedes-Benz Boss questioned Ferrari's aggressive upgrade schedule in 2026,
saying Wolfe's insinuations about whether Ferrari's rate of development is affordable
under F1's cost cap amounts to accusations of cheating. Wolfe described Ferrari as a team that
seems to be limitless with its development, but Versa responded rather angrily, saying Mercedes
and Red Bull have viewed as genius when they bring upgrades while Ferrari is accused of cheating.
When asked, given the two are known friends, Wolfe and Versa, if it had the chance to talk with
Toto, Versa replied, I think it was better to avoid to speak. Do you think Toto Wolfe's initial
comments were unfair? Ferrari do have previous. What do you mean? If you go on about those
scandalous rumors of 2019 when the engine was completely legal, I'm going to be fuming.
In 2019? No! Legal. There were two races where suddenly the Ferrari was very good,
and then suddenly it wasn't that good again. There's also been a few other examples where
conversations have maybe even had that Ferrari have pushed the boundaries, but
Fred Versa was not team leader at this point, and I am going to, Fred, we trust.
He's an honest man. Look at him. Mr. Versa is not a naughty man.
He's not a gorsy boy. He's a whimsical little man that I really enjoy watching as a human being.
He brings a lot of joy to the world. I just don't think Fred's a cheat, but he's smart,
it's Fred. He's a really smart guy. Smart Fred, that's what they call him.
Smart, that's what they call him on the streets of Italy. English as well, the cocky accent.
I just don't think this is his nature. We've seen him manage teams before,
he was, of course, really massive at the likes of Alfa Romeo as well.
There was no foul play there. I don't think this is in Fred's nature. I don't feel like
he's the kind of person that wants to wing through a farious means. I think this is a
bit cheeky from Total Wolf. They are friends. They're long-term friends. They have gone
along for a long time. They've had dealings for a long time. They've been competitors
for a long time, and I just think that this has come out a bit left-wing because he's been maybe
outdeveloped when it comes to a chassis point of view. Ferrari are doing things correctly.
The updates are working. The car gets better. They're bringing innovative and interesting
direction to their car that no one else is doing, and as we discussed during the show,
it's regularly being copied by their competitors. I just think praise where praise is due.
Ferrari's engine not great, but the car itself looking really strong.
Develop better Mercedes. You got good at the engine, get good at the car,
and I think that's what they're going to do. Get good, son.
I mean, yeah, it would be very Ferrari to cheat, but do it so badly that they're not winning.
The more I think about this, the more it amounts to cheating. Damn it. Maybe you got me.
Yeah. I can understand why these comments have been interpreted the way they have.
I don't think Total Wolf's comments were meant with malice. I mean, Ferrari by number of upgrades,
Ferrari have done a very good job of bringing a lot of them. I don't think it looks suspicious,
though. They've brought a similar amount to the other teams at the top,
maybe slightly more, but not a stupid amount more that makes you think something's up here.
I actually think Total Wolf's comments here were almost meant to be complementary of what
Ferrari are doing in terms of, as in like, it's proving very difficult to keep up with the way
that they are upgrading so quickly and that they're creating these upgrades,
bringing these upgrades to the track, they're working, they're doing so effectively and
efficiently within the cost cap that they have. I almost think it might be a compliment,
but I understand the way Fred Viser has responded here because it is his job to defend
the team with everything that he has. And if he feels like the integrity of his team is being
called into question, he should be responding as angrily as he has. I think Fred Viser is a very
old-school type of team principal and I'm with you when you say,
I can't see, I can't see him cheating. I can't even think about that.
I don't want to think about it. I think it comes from a more of a, we'll handle our business,
you handle your business, and then we'll turn up at the track and see who's got what.
I think that's his style. He, as a team principal, it isn't like Toto Wolf versus Christian Horner,
like, or, or, or Zack Brown versus Christian Horner, or someone else versus Christian Horner,
or Google Drive versus Christian Horner. He likely doesn't appreciate Toto Wolf making assumptions
and, you know, speculating about what's going on behind closed doors at Ferrari. The cost cap is
complicated. Like, it's, it's tough to know what's going on. It's spread out across so many different
departments. And just because someone's bringing an upgrade doesn't mean they're close or not close
to getting to that cost cap. Like, and I think, you know, Fred Viser just doesn't appreciate,
you're making questions and making comments over there. Stick to what you're doing. We'll stick
to what are doing. That feels like a very Fred Viser way of operating. It's just paying the cleanest
£1.50 a month. And that's how we save all the extra money. Yeah, that doesn't seem very fair.
We're getting paid in Ferrari instead. Paid in Hopium. Honestly, it's very valuable. Yeah. Hey,
it must be working. That nostalgia factor for Ferrari goes a long way. They're selling it on
the market, making absolute fortune in social media posts. Fred Viser has admitted that Ferrari
are deploying a bit of a strategy of upgrades earlier in the season rather than later. Does
that make sense to you? Yeah, I think so. I think it gives you a lot to work with if you get the job
done early. You know, if you've got a shot at a title, for example, if you get all your upgrades
done by the summer break, and let's say you're 50 points clear in the championship, where you go,
right, we commit to this year, we continue the upgrade stage, and we push forward. If you get
the summer break and you're, you know, there are 100 points down on Mercedes right now,
you know, if they get another two races in, there are 150 points down on the championship
leaders, you turn around, they go, look, it's pretty not going to turn around right now. We
are clearly losing ground. Let's pivot our strategy. We work on the next year and we focus
on things like the engine properly. And that's what we spend our money. I think getting the job
done early allows you to make decisions. It stops you being operating in campus weird gray space,
where you're not sure how to move forward. Very different to the way that McLaren, for example,
are operating, which is almost a small step-by-step basis where they're adding little bit and little
bit and little bit. I actually think that ends up setting you back long term. You're just playing
catch-up. Someone has an incubation, you go, oh, we should have copied that. We can't, though,
because we're on upgrade 317 and 500. It doesn't work like that. So I think Ferrari is sensible
to do it this way. Yeah, I get it as well. I will say these comments from Fred Versailles
kind of validate what Total Wolf is saying in that they are putting together these upgrades
earlier in the season, knowing that they maybe won't be keeping pace with that later in the year
because of cost cap reasons, kind of what he was saying. But anyway, I think it's an understandable
approach. If you make an upgrade at race five in an average F1 season, you've got 20 rounds where
that upgrade is going to be on the car and operating. You bring that upgrade at round 15,
you've got half of that month of time. So sure, making your upgrades earlier in the season to
make sure they benefit as many rounds as possible makes a lot of sense. You're learning so fast at
this point, not only in the year, but in the regulation cycle, that there is a lot of opportunity
to develop and they don't want to get caught behind or they don't want to fall further behind,
I guess you could say, a team like Mercedes. They really haven't been able to afford to let
them get away. And to Ferrari's credit, it's at least kind of working because after four races,
Mercedes were 70 points ahead in the constructors championship. The last five races, so we're at
the end of race nine now, they're now 78 points clear. So essentially five races, Mercedes have
outscored Ferrari by eight points. And I appreciate both sides have had some reliability issues during
that spell, but that is at least progress. So I can understand why, because if we were looking at
140 points right now, season over, it's done. I agree. think Frank's done a good
job considering that there are a lot of rumours around his performance from the likes of John
Elkin and Italian press at the end of the last season that maybe he should go. I think he's
cost a lot of that. Oh, wow. Who would have thought John Elkin's comments were a load of nonsense?
Did you see him at the Silverstone celebration? No. Walking around hugging everyone,
best mates with everybody. Oh, 250 wigs. Oh, look at us go. Next day, we're asking for a car in
the next Lego race, weren't we? Yeah. Okay. I'll split the fare with my mate Ben.
Not me. That's his middle name. Yeah. He's Mohammed. What a lame name, Ben. Yeah. Just call
yourself Mohammed's Sully M in future. Sorry. I didn't think MBS was going to catch strays in
this topic, but here we are. He will always catch strays. Do you think when it comes to Ferrari
later in the year, it could catch up to them? Yeah, 100%. I think that is a very big worry
about what's going on. That's what I mean by part of doing the upgrades early allows you to evaluate
if you might overdo it. You might go the wrong way entirely and not actually benefit from this.
You mentioned about getting a proper benefit allowed by having it on for 20 races rather than 10.
That makes total sense. But equally, if you've gone the wrong way, at least at race 10,
you could go, we've gone the wrong way. This isn't working. Pack it in. Do something new.
If you go the wrong way and it's race 20 of 24, you're like, oh,
boo, we put so much effort into this season and now we've got to start thinking about the next
season and we're wrong. We're on the back foot. The whole journey of this car that we're designed on
is wrong and fundamentally we'll need to change everything. And that is what was wrong with the
Ferrari at the end of the last set of regulations. They changed their brake system. They changed the
design at the front end. It just was wrong. It didn't work. And it's here. They can get to the
likes of Hungry in the middle of the season and go, we're onto something or the opposite of,
we're really not onto something back out now changing direction. So it might catch up to them.
It might. But equally, it means they can catch it up if they are being caught.
Yeah. Toto Wolf has said about his team's upgrades and you mentioned this about a duo earlier about
waiting for that, but even outside of that system and just more regular upgrades, they've
got one in development at the moment and they're just not, they're not going to launch it until
they are completely happy with it. And it's, whilst Ferrari's approach is understandable
based on where they are in the championship, same can be said for what Mercedes are doing.
I rush it when it already works. Indeed. Should we do an F1 fantasy update?
I thought you might say that and I thought you might shake your head, Kirstie.
Right. Top three in the league. Never Lewis Faith, still leading the way, although it is getting
a little bit closer up top. Lumley Speed Syndicate is in second place and new into the top three,
we have Fanamp Fantasy HQ. In terms of the British GP winners, a couple of teams using
their limitless chip to very good effect. Hasta la vista, baby. So good. 409 points,
the same as Robbie P's races. What about the four of us? Well, it couldn't be much closer. Sam,
you were a user of your limitless chip this weekend and that has helped you to a 186 position
increase, which means you have regained the lead in 350th. I love that. This is the best news of
my week. I've dropped 15 spots, which means I'm in 355th and exactly two points behind Sam right
now. This is the championship fight you want to be here for. Yes. Whereas I think we might be the
McLaren drivers right now if we're using last year as a bit of an example. Kersti might be
Max Verstappen because 472nd. It's a bit uncomfortable, still there, but a drop of 45 spots this week.
I'm not saying I wish you harm, Kersti, but maybe your rear wing might not close with a few fast
corners coming up. Impressive that this man is leading F1 Fantasy and doesn't understand how it
works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're building your car in your garage. Like a car outside.
Good news though, Kersti. You're not last because we can always rely on Harry Eid for that.
He's 724th and I don't know why this is funny, but he's dropped six positions.
I feel like that's funnier than him dropping 100 spots. He's just dropped six.
So we'll have to see as we head towards the summer break where the championship is going to
swing because all three of us have had an opportunity at the top over the last month or so,
and Harry's been playing as well. Yeah, it's good to have him along.
Right, let's take our final break on this episode. On the other side, we've got a game.
Might not be the best we've ever played. We'll see.
Is that a folks promise at the start? Yeah, it might have been.
Welcome back everyone to the final part of today's episode and we're playing the greatest
game in the history of late breaking, which is, of course, Hamilton or Nah, Milton.
Wow. I didn't think we could manipulate any more drivers who sound like a yes or no situation
in the most forced way possible. But what are you forced? What are you talking about?
Here we are. Forced slander. Yes, the new hit game show Hamilton or Nah,
Milton. Come into your screens, never. We're asking whether we would, on a three-year deal,
take Lewis Hamilton or these drivers. We've got four different drivers we're going to be
comparing. I'm interested to see how we go here. Some alternative options here.
Which driver would you take on a three-year contract, Lewis Hamilton or Oscar Piastri?
I'm going Hamilton for this one. I think that when Hamilton is in a car that he's comfortable with,
he's producing in this world, that's what's happening in this three-year deal. I just think
that he's just a special driver. There's a reason why he's got seven titles, a hundred and five
race wings. I think it is now. He is more than just happening a Lonzo combined, I saw earlier,
which is quite good. Not bad, is it? It's quite good. I just think he's still got that spark.
Whilst I have my doubts in the year towards the end of 2025, things change and the guys come back
with a real vengeance. Oscar is sensational. I just don't think he's got the ceiling of what
Hamilton is at right now. This is super close. I think this is really close. We start with a
disagreement. I'm going Oscar Piastri. We might be entering Piastri's prime years at this point,
and he was so close to winning the title last year. Honestly, for three-quarters of the season,
he was the most impressive driver. A part of me thinks if we replay that season just with a
little bit more experience for Piastri, he might well win that title. The 2026 season hasn't been
great for him. Some of it his fault, a lot of it bad luck as well. In fact, he's 16th at the moment
in terms of laps completed on the year. The only drivers that are below them blow him. Ironically,
his teammate, Lando Norris, and then you're getting into the Aston Martins, Hülkenberg,
and Albin. Their reliability has been really bad, but where he has had an opportunity to show what
he can do, such as Suzuki, he has still shown out. A tough season for him, but I am just about
going to go for Piastri. Which driver would you take on a three-year contract, Lewis Hamilton,
or his ex-teammate, George Russell? If you asked me this question in Australia of this year,
I would have been shouting very loud because you weren't in Australia. I wasn't, you're right.
If anyone would like me to be in Australia, though, let me know.
Any time, any place. Let me know. Hit me up, I'll come down. I'm taking Lewis Hamilton. Russell
has been phenomenal, but the moment something hasn't gone his way, he has been found out,
and it shows how much a certain type of car can matter to a driving style. Again,
in this world where I believe the car would suit the drivers, I think Hamilton's overall
ability is better than Russell's overall ability right now, and he's got enough in the locker for
the next three years to maintain that. Again, six months ago, maybe it would have been slightly
different, but recent results have swayed me the other way. Six months ago, it definitely
would have been different from my side, but I'm with you. I'm going Lewis Hamilton here.
It's really tough because we've seen these two as teammates, and it reflected quite well
on George Russell. George Russell in their final year as teammates outqualified Lewis Hamilton,
17-6. We saw in those three years that they were teammates. Russell beat Hamilton on points in two
of them. He was very impressive head-to-head against the driver that had won so many titles
at the same team at Mercedes, yet my concern right now is too high for Russell and these
current regulations. I just don't think it suits his style. If we're going with a three-year contract
that is with stipulating here, that's all going to be in this regulation cycle. If you could fast
forward me to maybe 2030 or 2031 when things change up, sure, I'll take a punt on George Russell,
but right now, I'm with you. Which driver would you take on a three-year contract, Lewis Hamilton
or Ollie Bearman? This one is a very different scenario to be. We're talking about, you forget
that Ollie Bearman is only just 21 years old. There's a lot of credit that goes to the likes of
Ellie and Limblog for how much they're doing at such a young age. This kid's been at Haas
and he has done such a brilliant job at a team that is maybe the biggest struggle on the grid
when it comes to funding and ability overall. That's why I'm going with Ollie Bearman over Lewis
Hamilton. I'm assuming, again, same team. I get to pick what they do. I just think I will not
lock down Ollie Bearman now. That's interesting. Because whilst I think that Hamilton now is a
better driver, comfortably a better driver, in three, possibly four years when that starts
to roll over and after renegotiate, I think Bearman is in a position to being a top team,
ready to race. Hamilton, with the most respect I can ever put on a sentence, will be nearly 45
and I just think he'll be ready to go. I want Ollie for the end of this contract,
not because I think that Hamilton would outdo him across the whole thing. I'm thinking more
about future promise right now than overall outlier ability in this moment.
Mason Not. Didn't quite want to bite at
Piastry and Russell, but Bearman's got you.
Simon I've seen enough of Piastry and Russell to know. Bearman, I think, is a bit more to give.
Mason Yeah. You're right in saying that this one is a completely different prospect to the other
two because whilst we've seen Piastry and Russell in a top car, we definitely haven't seen that in
Bearman, who's obviously only been at Haas, save for the one race that he did at Ferrari.
I am going to go with Lewis Hamilton here and I'm just not, I'm the type, I need to see it
and I don't have the opportunity to see it and I understand your logic completely because
the potential is there for Bearman. It's a risk until Bearman is in a top car and you see that
happen. There's a chance this is a clanger. Like if Bearman gets to a top team and it's,
it doesn't look great, then suddenly you're right. You made a big mistake. It's risky.
It's an understandable risk, but from my side, if it was five years, I'd take Bearman definitely.
Three years, I'll just about go Lewis Hamilton. And lastly, which driver would you take on a
current teammate, Charlotte Clair? The hardest of the selection. Yeah.
But I've gone with Lewis Hamilton and I've gone with Hamilton based on one very specific
point here and that is the ability to develop a race car. It has become quite evident that
while Charlotte Clair is maybe the best one lap driver on the grid, while Charlotte Clair has
got some of the best raw pace on the grid, well, I think he's one of the most brilliant individuals
on the grid. We ain't winging right now. And I'm assuming we're Ferrari because they're
both there. We're very Ferrari in life. Yeah. We are. We ain't winging, but we cool AF.
No, we're not. Which Ferrari have never said because they're actually cool and I'm a fool.
La Clair has immediately had to make changes to that car based on what Hamilton is doing.
The moment Hamilton is involved in car development, it begins to succeed again. It's
one of the best races, but is he one of the best at actually building a team? And with that in mind,
with a new set of regulations that we're in, I've gone with Hamilton on that basis. That's
nothing to do with their pace in the car. I think they're pretty equally matched right now as we've
seen in recent races. It's based on what they can do for the car. You're right. This was the toughest
one of the lot. Why was it last? Maybe there's something in that. Whoa. Man knows how to play
good game. Wow. I'm keeping the faith. Charlotte Clair, come on. I knew it. I've got
to keep the faith. I just feel sorry for him. It's the only reason. It's a pity pick. I actually
don't. Maybe my answer would have been different before Silverstone and I don't want to read too
much in one result, but Charlotte Clair has been so good so many years that even though it's been
a difficult six months, he has built up enough credit for me to go with him still. The way in
which I know it was a different set of regulations, the way in which he demolished Lewis Hamilton
last year, the fact that it's still relatively close this year, although I would still say
Hamilton's been the better driver, it leaves gives me confidence that let's say it stays
level this year and maybe even stays level next year. I think by the time we get to Hamilton in
year 44, appropriately, or we get to La Clair getting into his 30s, at that point I think La Clair
is better, in which case I will go with Shell. It was the closest one of the lot though.
So understandable pick. I see why you went that way.
I think I might have done an all right job in picking the four drivers there because we've
only agreed on one of them. They were tough, genuinely. When you set them over, I went,
these are really difficult to pick between. It took me some time.
I'm interested to see at home, if you've played along, were you closer to Sam's
selections, closer to my selections? In theory, you should have been close to one of us at least.
If you've managed to find a way to be close to Nye Reverse, then you've probably introduced
the third driver, which is breaking the rules of the classic game show, Hamilton or Hamilton.
Harry, you can't pick yourself for everyone. Yes, probably not making a return any time soon,
but I hope you've enjoyed. I think that's going to do it for this episode, Sam, if you
wouldn't mind getting us out of here. Folks, hopefully you've enjoyed the discussion. Let
us know your thoughts on all the key topics we've covered. Will Verstappen potentially end up at
McLaren? Should he be unhappy with what's going on at Red Bull? He should Red Bull be worried
by what's going on with their straight line mowing in the rear wing. Equally, what will
happen at Haas? Ocon going through a really difficult time. Is it enough to remove him
from the seat or should he get more time? And then Fred Versailles, Total Wolf,
for the comments, correct? Ferrari doing a great job. What are your thoughts?
And again, on that last topic, fascinating to know who you will pick on either of those decisions.
You can do that in the comments below. You can do that in Discord, the links in the description.
It's a great place to speak to us or be involved in what goes on on the podcast,
or you can join Patreon. And Patreon is a great space where you can support the show
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check it out. You can subscribe for a month. You get so many great benefits. We just recorded
Bill with Breaking. It was one of the most ridiculous episodes of the show that the
three of us have done in a long time and I promise you'll laugh. And if you don't,
cancel that subscription. That's okay. You can find us on social media if you'd like to see
more silly clips, question of the week, or if you're going to watch the show as well,
we do that on YouTube. It's all under late Breaking F1 and we appreciate the support over
there as well. We're going to see you on Sunday. There is not, of course, a race happening this
weekend. So it'll be another standard episode with lots of news and chats and discussions
that go into this dig into, but hopefully you enjoy those. Can't wait to see you there. In the
meantime, five and seven, the same. And I've been Ben Hawking and remember, keep breaking late.
About this episode
Max Verstappen’s anger over a rear-wing failure that caused high-speed crashes in consecutive weekends took center stage, with Red Bull admitting the problem hasn’t been fully solved. The team is considering reverting to an earlier rear-wing spec, while the FIA reportedly investigates the “Macarena” rear-wing design across teams—including Ferrari, which hasn’t shown the same issue. Hosts debate whether broad scrutiny protects safety or risks stifling innovation under new regulations, weighing the sporting points Red Bull may have lost.
Ben and Sam catch you up on the latest F1 chatter, starting with the growing speculation over Max Verstappen's frustration at Red Bull and whether a shock move to McLaren could actually be on the cards. They also discuss Esteban Ocon's uncertain future and who could replace him, as well as Toto Wolff's suggestion that Ferrari may be running close to the cost cap...
